407: Fanatical: The Catfishing of Tegan and Sara

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed, Episode 407: "Fanatical: The Catfishing of Tegan and Sara"

Introduction

In episode 407 of True Crime Obsessed, titled "Fanatical: The Catfishing of Tegan and Sara," hosts Patrick and Sarah delve into a harrowing true crime story intertwined with the vibrant world of indie pop fandom. Released on December 17, 2024, this episode explores the dark underbelly of fan interactions, identity theft, and the psychological toll on both the artists and their fans.

Background on Tegan and Sara

Tegan and Sara are identical twin sisters from Canada, celebrated as queer indie pop icons. Known for their hit song "Closer," their rise to fame began in the early 2000s, winning contests and being signed by renowned musician Neil Young. Their open queer identity and accessible nature fostered a dedicated fanbase, primarily composed of young, queer women who found solace and reflection in their music.

Notable Quote:
Patrick ([03:24]): "Tegan and Sarah, by the way, are twins. They are lesbians. They're Canadian. Yeah. I feel like that's them in a nutshell."

The Catfishing Scandal ("Fegan")

The core of the episode revolves around a sophisticated catfishing scheme targeting Tegan and Sara's fans. Beginning around 2011, an individual impersonating Tegan (referred to as "Fegan") established fraudulent relationships with numerous fans. This fake Tegan engaged in deep, personal conversations, sharing intimate details such as passport scans and personal anecdotes, thereby breaching the artists' privacy and trust.

Notable Quotes:
Sarah ([02:14]): "This whole new really scary universe opened up."
Patrick ([06:12]): "This is one of my favorites, fam. For anybody who rents, if you... you're about to thank us."

Impacts on Fans and Tegan and Sara

The catfishing incident had profound effects on both the real Tegan and Sara and their fans. Fans like Julie and JT found themselves emotionally entangled with Fegan, believing they had genuine friendships with the artists. These relationships often escalated to inappropriate and abusive exchanges, leaving fans devastated upon discovering the deception. For Tegan and Sara, the breach of personal information led to heightened paranoia and fears about their physical safety, as well as strained relationships within their management team.

Notable Quote:
Sarah ([04:17]): "We got an emergency here. So she brushes it off."

Psychological Analysis

Max, a social psychologist and cyber terrorism expert featured in the episode, provides insight into the psychology behind catfishing. He explains that catfishers often seek control and validation, particularly women who excel in online manipulation. The lack of established boundaries in the early days of fan interactions allowed Fegan to exploit the deep-seated need for connection among Tegan and Sara's fans.

Notable Quote:
Max ([36:54]): "It's a way for them to feel confident and secure. He says there's a significant psychological reward. It's a power move. It's about control."

Conversations with Experts and Affected Fans

The episode includes interviews with various fans and experts:

• Jenny, a Music Journalist: Highlights the importance of queer representation and how the catfishing ordeal underscored vulnerabilities within fan communities.

  Notable Quote:
  Jenny ([12:33]): "It really made a huge impact to know that part of their identity was that they were queer."

• Jamie, Community Archivist: Discusses the loneliness and dedication of super fans maintaining extensive archives and connections.

  Notable Quote:
  Jamie ([15:17]): "Being a super fan can be incredibly lonely."

• JT, a Victim: Shares her traumatic experience of being deceived by Fegan, leading to emotional abuse and a lasting distrust of fan communities.

  Notable Quote:
  JT ([60:02]): "I will stop. I will cease and desist, but I want an in-person apology from my former friend."

Conclusion and Themes

Patrick and Sarah conclude the episode by reflecting on the fragile nature of parasocial relationships and the necessity of setting boundaries to protect both fans and artists. Tegan and Sara's transition to a more controlled interaction model, such as VIP ticketing, signifies the industry's response to such crises. The hosts emphasize the duality of fan culture—its capacity to create meaningful connections and its susceptibility to exploitation by malicious actors.

Notable Quote:
Sarah ([67:27]): "But Tegan, you don't know them either. Like, it goes both ways. So when it's parasocial both ways, that's not great either."
Patrick ([83:45]): "And then she's like, or you can kidnap me and see what happens. And I'm like, no lessons."

Final Reflections

The episode underscores the importance of vigilance in fan-artist interactions and the profound impact of online deceptions. Patrick and Sarah advocate for healthier boundaries within fan communities to prevent future tragedies, highlighting the need for both artists and fans to navigate their relationships with caution and respect.

Notable Closing Quote:
Patrick ([85:10]): "We know we'll never know. That's the real mystery."

Key Takeaways:

• The sophisticated catfishing of Tegan and Sara's fans exposed significant vulnerabilities in early fan-artist interactions.
• Parasocial relationships, while powerful, require clear boundaries to prevent exploitation and emotional harm.
• The incident prompted a shift in how artists engage with their fanbase, emphasizing the need for safety and privacy.

Timestamped Quotes:

• Patrick ([03:24]): "Tegan and Sarah, by the way, are twins. They are lesbians. They're Canadian. Yeah. I feel like that's them in a nutshell."
• Sarah ([02:14]): "This whole new really scary universe opened up."
• Max ([36:54]): "It's a way for them to feel confident and secure. He says there's a significant psychological reward. It's a power move. It's about control."
• Sarah ([67:27]): "But Tegan, you don't know them either. Like, it goes both ways. So when it's parasocial both ways, that's not great either."

This episode serves as a compelling exploration of the intersection between true crime and the complexities of modern fandom, delivered with the characteristic humor, sass, and heart that True Crime Obsessed is known for.

Transcript

[Patrick]

I mean, I love Tegan and Sarah so much. I will never know how to spell their names. I will never know how they spell them.

[Sarah]

Really?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

That's the big takeaway.

[Patrick]

That's my big takeaway.

[Sarah]

I left with more questions than I came in with. And we're doing phonics at the top of this thing.

[Patrick]

You're mystified?

[Sarah]

I'm mystified on like a lot of counts.

[Patrick]

Fam. Please do us a big favor and join the freaking Facebook group.

[Sarah]

Oh my God. The freaking. Get over there. The Facebook.

[Patrick]

It's the true grumble obsessed podcast discussion group. Go make friends. Go find your people. There's like 60,000 people in there. It is so much fun.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I love it. Now this is gonna be like the Tegan and Sarah week when this episode comes out. Cause everyone's gonna be posting like all.

[Patrick]

I wanna get is a little bit. It's so good. Real quick, fam. As many of you know, I'm out on tour again. I'm taking my storytelling event, which is like an hour long story that turned into a party. Cause we got the venue bar for the whole night. So basically it's like a little show and then we go and we hang out and we have drinks and we take pictures and we meet everybody. We do the whole thing.

[Sarah]

Fantastic. Love it.

[Patrick]

I'm starting it in February. It's going on indefinitely. The first seven cities are. If I can do it from memory. We'll see Seattle for opening night, then Los Angeles, then Denver, Salt Lake City, Kansas City, Indianapolis, and New Orleans.

[Sarah]

Oh, fun.

[Patrick]

Not necessarily in that order.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Patrick]

Just go to patricktours.com. don't be afraid to come alone. You're gonna make a bunch of new friends. You always do. That's what always happens at these things. It's very, very fun and I'm really looking forward to it. Cute. Yeah. What are we talking about today, girl?

[Sarah]

Okay. Fanatical. The catfishing of Tegan and Sarah. Except Tegan and Sarah weren't catfished at all.

[Patrick]

So, I mean, you hate this thing.

[Sarah]

Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts. I have a lot of feelings. I have a lot of questions. I just. There's a lot. I wanna get to the bottom too. And I feel insane.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Sarah]

I feel like a lot of people aren't saying a lot of things.

[Patrick]

Yep.

[Sarah]

Tegan and Sarah were known as being very accessible messaged Tegan.

[Patrick]

And we got a response.

[Sarah]

It was very exciting. Tegan added me as a friend on Facebook. I had become friends with Tegan and it had become a long term friendship. At some point, she sent me a shared drive and a pass. It felt off. So I reached out to her management and got a text that said, she has no idea who you are. And I said, well, then Tegan has a big problem.

[Patrick]

In the beginning, we thought it was just a leak of a demo. And then we realized this hacker had access to Tegan and Sarah's personal information.

[Sarah]

This whole new really scary universe opened up.

[Patrick]

I said fake Teagan knew where we all lived. Email addresses had been hacked. They shared passport scans and knew their mom's medical history.

[Sarah]

It introduced the idea that it's someone we know coming after our friends, me and my girlfriend. That just made me question everyone around me. It was terrifying and scary. I was paranoid.

[Patrick]

The fear, of course, was the sort of physical safety.

[Sarah]

It got darker when we realized multiple fans had been catfished online and thought that they were talking to me.

[Patrick]

This opens in 2011 and I had to look it up because if any of you have heard of Tegan and Sarah and you're not, like, a big fan, the big song that you know of them is Closer. It's that Closer song. That song did not come out until 2012. So what we're about to learn, like, the first half of this happens before. Before that huge song that made them, like, hugely famous even came out.

[Sarah]

Yeah. So I know Tegan and Sarah very casually. Like, I don't know anything about them personally, really, other than what everyone knows. Like, I don't know their lore. Yeah, I'm going in for a while. I don't really either.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I had never heard of them until Closer. That was where I found them.

[Sarah]

I knew Walking with a Ghost because when I was like, oh, right, of course. Like, it just feels like if you were kind of in the indie music scene at all in the early 2000s. Obviously everyone knew Tegan and Sarah, but I don't really know their lore.

[Patrick]

No, I don't really either. But Tegan is here. She's like the primary storyteller. Tegan and Sarah, by the way, are twins. They are lesbians. They're Canadian. Yeah. I feel like that's them in a nutshell. They are so cute. I love them. But Tegan is saying it was 2011. They'd been on tour for two years straight. They'd circled the globe multiple times. They're finally home. Tegan is at a party in la and she's like, I left my phone for five seconds. She got the perfect lesbian cocktail of tequila on the rocks.

[Sarah]

She goes, I was Barely in the door before someone hands me a tequila on ice. She's like, post tour, Tegan. She's chilling. It's great. An hour later, someone's like, your sister Sarah is looking for you. And Tegan's like, really, girl? We were on tour for. For two years. Can I have, like, five minutes to sip my tequila?

[Patrick]

Poor Sarah. It's like, you're also the last person I want to talk to right now. But we got it, we got it.

[Sarah]

We got an emergency here. So she brushes it off. And then someone's like, no, no, no. Sarah really, really needs to talk to you. And Teagan's like, okay, who died? Someone must be dead. Tegan's all of us. So Teigen describes being at the super loud, quote, queer party.

[Patrick]

Yeah, invite me to that goddamn party.

[Sarah]

I know.

[Patrick]

Like, oh, my God, in la, drinking tequila on ice.

[Sarah]

Super fun.

[Patrick]

Jesus Christ.

[Sarah]

Really good soundtrack.

[Patrick]

Oh, you know, there's like a great pool.

[Sarah]

Really great, you know, really great view.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Sarah]

Like, the chain is thrown in by Fleetwood Mac. Like, every once in a while, there's like a real oldie but goodie. Anyway, come to my queer party in LA one day that I'm definitely throwing. There's like, 50 missed calls from Sarah. Tegan's trying to hear what Sarah's saying, and it just sort of ends with like. And I finally heard what they were saying, and it's a super terrifying story.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So the whole thing began over a decade ago. And the producer, director, whatever of this documentary is saying to Tegan now, why.

[Sarah]

Did you never talk about this publicly?

[Patrick]

Why have you kept a secret?

[Sarah]

You know, as soon as we got the green light to do this project, I immediately regretted it. I actually regret it now. I had to go against a decade of instinct, which was that if we talk about it, it'll make it worse.

[Patrick]

If I talk about it, it will make it worse.

[Sarah]

So here's what happened. Cause we learn at the top, we get, you know, like a thesis sentence about it or whatever. I'm still struggling with a cult, Julian. The words are gonna be difficult today.

[Patrick]

She doesn't feel good, and she doesn't like this documentary. But she fucking showed up. She's here. She's.

[Sarah]

You recorded a lot this week. Happy to be here. Honored to be here. I'm just apologizing because the words are not going well out from my brain, throughout my mouth.

[Patrick]

Those tend to be the best episodes. I think we'll see what happens.

[Sarah]

But here's what happens. So someone is pretending to be Tegan and It gets, like, really dark and it goes really deep. And that's what we're talking about today. So we just know, like, oh, someone is pretending to be Tegan. Things get really bad. Let's get into it.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Travel down the road.

[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

For blt.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

This is more important.

[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

Throw it in at ya. So the Tegan and Sarah story. They're queer twins from Canada. Like indie pop darlings. Indie pop mainstays.

[Patrick]

It's kind of amazing. Like, when they were kids, they both kind of realized that they were really good at music and they both really loved it and they could, like, be in a band together.

[Sarah]

It's kind of amazing to have. I mean, I know the from, you know, what I've heard. Obviously, I'm not a twin. Unless.

[Patrick]

What if, like, what if I was like. And coming in now, Right? Oh, my God. Wouldn't that be wild?

[Sarah]

But I. Door number two. Oh my God, that's like a life upender.

[Patrick]

Of course.

[Sarah]

But anyway. Cause it's like, mom, dad, you just lied to me the whole time. Like, how does that work?

[Patrick]

And where does she go?

[Sarah]

But anyway, what I know about twins is that like, their connection is so super close. Not only do you have this really close connection with your twin, you're both queer and you are both musicians. Like, oh my God.

[Patrick]

I know. And I do think that that's pretty common, that if one is gay, the other one is gay. I used to work with these twin lesbians at this coffee shop down in the Village. And for just a second today, I was like, wait, is this them? Like, did I forget? Did I forget that they were Tegan and Sarah? No, they weren't. But they were awesome. But they, Tegan and Sarah are saying.

[Sarah]

In high school, we won a contest at the local university and every major label in Canada tried to sign us.

[Patrick]

Signed by Neil Young. That's got to be exciting.

[Sarah]

Yeah, it's very exciting.

[Patrick]

I'd like to bring out a couple.

[Sarah]

Of friends, Keegan and Sarah.

[Patrick]

Every major label in Canada tried to sign.

[Sarah]

Well, they're discovered by Neil Young, which is insane. And they go on tour opening for him. He signs them to his label. They're like 20 years old. They're super, super young.

[Patrick]

And it's so interesting because it's like now this is the era of music that I really remember. Like the 90s, 2000s, like, lesbians were everywhere. That was the Lilith Fair era, but it was still very much a quote man's world. It was like, you know, Tegan and Sarah on, like, on tour, opening for Neil Young. It's great. They get to be themselves. They get to be the loud out loud and queer kids. But like, it's not like. I mean, nothing blew my mind more in the last year than Chap, like, never having to come out. Like, just Chapel Rowan, just being an instant overnight. Well, obviously not an instant overnight set, but becoming incredibly famous. The fact that she's a lesbian is just baked into it. Renee rap, same story. Like, Tegan and Sarah, like, they were out, but that meant that they were gonna be indie rockers. They were never gonna be, like, mainstream, right?

[Sarah]

And like, because indie rock was very male and very straight, they were like, we love this, we're good at this, but is this something we can do for a living? Or should we just have a lot of fun on tour with Neil Young and like, see what happens?

[Patrick]

Yes, totally.

[Sarah]

So 2004, they hit the College music scene, they're doing a ton of show. College kids are coming to their shows, they're being played on college radio. And like, the venues are getting bigger, people are wearing their T shirts. And Teigen says that's when we felt the shift and started to feel the fandom.

[Patrick]

And you can see it like, you see like the shows where like thousands of people are showing up singing their songs.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean?

[Sarah]

Like, that must be insane.

[Patrick]

That must be. I just, I can't.

[Sarah]

Like, you wrote those words, you put it out there, you composed it with your twin sister, and now people are singing your words back to you with your face. Like, I can't imagine what that must be like.

[Patrick]

And they say this thing that like, really spoke to me that I loved. They said when we started having fans, we started, started talking to them. And Tegan is saying, you know, we'd.

[Sarah]

Go out to the merch table after every show and be out there for an hour, two hours. I see it taking photos, but mostly just talking to everybody, just getting to know them. Started to feel like there were people who understood what we were trying to do and understood us. We just started to see ourself reflected in our audience and it felt really nice. We're all the same. We're all young, we're all queer. We all had the same asymmetrical haircuts, which I loved. Very self referential. But like they all felt seen by each other. So like they were really like looking in a mirror, which could be really, really beautiful, but also a little bit dangerous.

[Patrick]

And I want to say too that I can only say this because like you, I'm a member of the queer community. So I just, I understand what it's like to feel marginalized in the world, but come into a space where you feel seen, you feel accepted, and the people leading it in this instance, Tegan and Sarah want to meet you at the merch table. They want to foster that community. They want to be there. I can understand how much that means to you.

[Sarah]

You know, I mean, that is like the beauty of fandom.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Like, I love being a fandom fan. I do. I truly love it. It does. Like, it's incredible. So, like, I love having conversations with people who feel the same way. So there is that kind of like, oh, because no one else is going to talk to you about it. Yeah, no one else is going to feel the way you do about it. So like that thing about being a fan, it's like, it's a very powerful, magical thing.

[Patrick]

Can I tell you this. I was picking up Daisy from rock climbing yesterday, and I met this mom that I had never talked to before. And she's like, oh, which one is yours? I was like, oh, that's Daisy. And I was like, which one is yours? Like, oh, mine is over there. Her name is Teddy. And I was like, oh, cool. And then she said the name Teddi again, and I was like, that's so funny. Like, there was a show that I used to love called Sisters where one of the sisters was named Teddy. She's like, that's who we named her after.

[Sarah]

Shut up.

[Patrick]

They named her after Teddi from Teddy and me. And this mom went down a sister's fucking rabbit hole. Steve couldn't believe it.

[Sarah]

Then he flew home. Because you were so thrilled that you had that moment.

[Patrick]

Yes. It was just one of those things where we talked about sisters for 15 minutes.

[Sarah]

It's a beautiful thing.

[Patrick]

It really, really is.

[Sarah]

It is. So Jenny is a music journalist, and she interviews Tegan and Sauer for Rolling Stone, and she's with us throughout. And she has, like, a really. She has, like, a bird's eye view of what's really happening. And she's like, it really made huge impact to know that part of their identity was that they were queer.

[Patrick]

It's shocking to think that it's not.

[Sarah]

That long ago, you know, that it was that rare. I didn't know very many queer artists at the time at all. You just didn't really have a lot.

[Patrick]

Of chances to see yourself, you know.

[Sarah]

Reflected in somebody else on stage. They were queer. We have to talk about, like, they're both queer, and that's a major, major part of it. So, like, being a fan of theirs sort of became, like, code for I'm different or I'm queer or it was kind of like a.

[Patrick]

And going to one of their shows was, like, going to, like, a gay community center. Like, you've had a safe place for a couple hours.

[Sarah]

So it's not just a connection to lyrics and music and a band, which is, like, major. It's because, like, the connection became so, so, so, so, so personal. Yeah, because they were writing, coming out letters, and they were like. They felt so seen mutually. Tegan and Sarah felt the same way about their fans.

[Patrick]

I gotta tell I've never really found this in a gay male singer, but I understand, like, when you hear somebody use the pronouns in a song that describe you. Like, for me to hear a man singing about a man, for these women to hear women singing about women, that really, really means something because 99% of the music you hear is heteronormative.

[Sarah]

And also. Yeah, and a thing that kind of sucks, too, is when someone will do a cover and then change the pronouns.

[Patrick]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes.

[Sarah]

You know, I always felt kind of like, oh, that seems.

[Patrick]

You know what I thought was amazing. I know everyone hated that cover of Fast Car for perfectly legitimate reasons. That country. I don't even know the guy's name. He did not change the pronouns. And that really meant something to me.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

That he was really trying to sing from this woman's experience. I understand people fucking hate that. I get it. But the fact that he didn't change the pronouns meant something to me.

[Sarah]

Yeah. I can't remember what it was. Michael Buble, like, famously got very. Everyone got mad at him because he did some very famous song and changed the pronouns. And I was kind of like, why are you doing this, man?

[Patrick]

I know, like, when I go to no Homo Michael.

[Sarah]

Right. Like, when I'm. When I do karaoke, I don't change the pronouns. That's how the song is.

[Patrick]

Exactly. And I want to also say one of the reasons why I love this documentary was because we never get to talk about gay people. You know what I mean? We never get a full documentary about gay people. And, like, it's nice to get to focus on that for a minute. Even though, like, it's a shitty story about what happened. It's like it's telling a queer story and, like, getting this. Like, getting to talk about what it means to be in these safe spaces for a little while.

[Sarah]

Yeah. So Jamie's here. Jamie is her lower third is Tegan. And Sarah, super fan, community archivist. Which is beautiful.

[Patrick]

Like, can you imagine being abandoned? You have, like, a community. Like a fan archivist.

[Sarah]

Well, Jamie's been doing this for 18 years.

[Patrick]

When they go to new states, I go there just so I can add.

[Sarah]

To the map of the states I've seen them in. These are all Tegan and Sarah shirts. Put these in rainbow order so I.

[Patrick]

Can find the ones I'm looking for. She arranged all the shirts in rainbow order in her closet.

[Sarah]

Cute.

[Patrick]

I mean, I love that.

[Sarah]

Cute. She films and photographs their shows, doing this for 18 years. She tells us that the fan community started on LiveJournal.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

And because. And she's right. Like, being a super fan can be kind of lonely because no one gives a shit. And then you're sitting on your living room floor making a podcast about a musical called Hamilton that you've never even Seen. Because everyone is sick tired of hearing you talk about it.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

You know what I'm saying? Like, being a super fan can be incredibly lonely. You see?

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Like, how many times is she going to mention fucking Taylor Swift? Enough already. But it's like, well.

[Patrick]

Well, no, but I totally get it. And Julie, another fan, is here and she's saying that the fan aspect of the Teigen and Sarah shit was magical. It was a home for these people.

[Sarah]

And they're talking specifically about the early days.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Julie says, like, he just had to be there. You can talk about it till the cows come home, but, like, if you weren't there, you just don't get it. I totally believe her.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So Pierce Henwood is here. He was their manager from 2002-20.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And Sarah is explaining what was happening at shows, that community started to happen online. And that was really new. Like, this is the beginning of all of that.

[Patrick]

I mean, if you Remember, Facebook was 2004. Like, 2002 was like MySpace, Friendster Era Journal. Yeah.

[Sarah]

So, like, that's what they're saying. So then it becomes like, well, how much do Teigen and Sarah participate? Because they're doing. They're hanging out at the merch table at a show. But then it's like, is it a fan thing? Is it weird if Tegan and Sarah are involved? Like, what's the protocol here? And there was no protocol because it never happened before.

[Patrick]

No. And we meet Kim, and she's from the management team and she's like. She said she was like the front line of all social media and email because email was how you did it back then.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

You had an email list and that was kind of how you communicated. And she's saying, I was the front.

[Sarah]

Line of communication for any social media, any email, anything that. It came to me first. And so I got to see all these heartbreaking stories and heartwarming stories about how much their music meant to people.

[Patrick]

When this fandom found the Internet, they found another place to gather.

[Sarah]

Right. And now, like, we're hearing a lot about what a lifeline this all is. And this is the first thing. Time I'm like, is no one going to say the word parasocial?

[Patrick]

I never heard that word until a year ago.

[Sarah]

Or boundaries or. I'm saying now, talking about it now, like, in this documentary, no one is talking about this is incredibly parasocial. And there are no boundaries at all. And no one is saying it.

[Patrick]

But I think, because if we're putting ourselves in the mindset of that Time like Tegan again is here to say I loved it. I loved engaging. I love. And Pierce, the manager is saying they were great at building community there. And you can from a marketing perspective. This is goal, you know, gold. Perfect. I was thinking today, I was like, I was like putting something on my Instagram about my tour. I was like, how would people ever let people know about it before social media?

[Sarah]

I know.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean?

[Sarah]

I know. It's crazy.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So like, I can see a world in which they're like, it doesn't matter. Break down all the boundaries. Be everybody's best friends.

[Sarah]

Nobody knew.

[Patrick]

Nobody knew.

[Sarah]

And now we're here.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick]

Ritual is back. I don't like making you angry, but I do like repeating this fact.

[Sarah]

Are you ready? It's important. It's important.

[Patrick]

It's good to know that. Did you know that women were excluded from clinical research policy by federal law until 1993?

[Sarah]

Well, everyone with a brain knows that we're essential. Women are essential.

[Patrick]

But like literally essential.

[Sarah]

We belong in scientific research.

[Patrick]

Yes, exactly.

[Sarah]

So Ritual knows that and they conducted a university led human clinical trial for their essential for women 18 plus multivitamin. It assessed its efficacy. Guess what? It's great.

[Patrick]

It's great. You've been taking it for years. We all know that the essential for women 18 is made with high quality and traceable key ingredients in clean bioavailable forms.

[Sarah]

Okay, they're giving you 9, 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 key nutrients.

[Patrick]

You did the math for them. I did.

[Sarah]

Nine equals nine. And all of these nutrients are in two delayed release capsules per day that optimize your body's absorption. And the delayed release is important because you can have it whenever, like it's really gentle on your stomach, right, which is really important. And it has minty essence, which is the most important thing.

[Patrick]

Minty essence. That's my drag name.

[Sarah]

There you go.

[Patrick]

Also fam, rituals essential for women is USP verified. And only about 1% of supplement brands on the market have that USP verified mark, which shows the product contains the ingredients actually listed on the label.

[Sarah]

Basically, you know what you're putting in your body. That's if you're taking it on a daily basis.

[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

You said it was minty, right?

[Sarah]

It is so minty. Usually they're like plasticky.

[Patrick]

Yeah. But not minty.

[Sarah]

They have multivitamins like this. But not ritual.

[Patrick]

We love it.

[Sarah]

So it's fall of 2008. Julie, one of the fans, is on Facebook. This is where I'm like, we gotta say the words. No one's saying.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So someone, some other fan messages Julie and says, hey, don't tell anyone. I found Teigen's real private Facebook profile. So on a whim, Julie sends a friend request to Teigen's private personal Facebook with a message talking about how much she loves Teigen and how much like Tegan and Sarah's music meant to them.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Tegan air quotes Teigen, confirms the friend request, and now Julie is friends with Teigen on Facebook. And now they're best friends.

[Patrick]

Now, let's just say right here this is not the real Tegan.

[Sarah]

No.

[Patrick]

Because I don't see any problem with sending a Facebook friend request to a famous person. Facebook is like the one area that I keep just for my family and friends. So I don't accept any of them from people that I don't know. I'm here to say I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that, but I'm imagining the real Teigen. I know famous people who, like, just use a different name.

[Sarah]

That's what I'm thinking this is. And that's why I think this is a boundary issue.

[Patrick]

And it's so early on in this thing that, like, famous people didn't think to use a fake name or whatever, you know?

[Sarah]

Yeah. So Julie and Tegan become best friends.

[Patrick]

Yeah, Julie and who we know is.

[Sarah]

Fake Tegan, or what they will eventually.

[Patrick]

Call this is not the real Tegan. But Julie thinks it is. Right?

[Sarah]

They're talking every single day. They're talking like they've known each other for years. Tegan's like, hey, what's up? Are you going to work today? And Julie's like, hey, leaving right now. How are you, Tegan of Tegan and Sarah. Julie's losing her mind. The fandom is thrilled for her. At some point she started sending me song demos and she had sent pictures of this new condo, you know, all the rooms in the house. Tegan's partner, like, the back of her head was in a couple shots as they're looking around. At one point, Teigen had told me that their mom had breast cancer. Super intimate stuff that she's sending to a fan.

[Patrick]

Supposedly we will never really learn how this fake Teigen got this stuff. We will get some idea of how they. How they maybe got it, but we won't really know for sure. But this just means Julie the fan believes hook, line, and sinker, it's real Teigen. It has to be, right?

[Sarah]

And then talking about. So it's like, here are demos, here is my new condo, and here's my girlfriend. And it's a candid photo. It's not like it's posed. It's not like it would have been posted anywhere. And again, remember what year this is? It's like a blurry, candid photo.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Also telling Julie about how Tegan and Sarah's mother has been diagnosed with breast cancer.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And it's like super, super personal, intimate things. Boundaries do not exist in this dynamic.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And it's also not like Tegan's not trying to have a relationship with her. They're not meeting in real life. They're not like they're not talking on the phone. This is all happening over Facebook.

[Sarah]

But, like, as from where Julie's sitting, Tegan is trusting her with these really intimate, emotional things. And Julie is sitting there being, I really needed a friend. And along came Teigen, even though I messaged her personal, private Facebook page, which shouldn't have been done. And then it's like, oh, this is a mess. No matter how you slice it, this is a mess.

[Patrick]

Well, what happens is, three years later, in 2011, I love Julie for this because she says Teigen sent her a shared drive and a password. And on this drive were passport photos for Tegan, Sarah, and all of their bands.

[Sarah]

Now, everyone pull over, like, full on doxing your passport photo, which, like, what.

[Patrick]

You'Re, like, coming from Tegan, it's like her own passport photo and then her sister's, and then the entire management and.

[Sarah]

Bands, like, Julie, thank God, realizes this is fucking insane.

[Patrick]

I gotta tell you, this is 2011. This is three years in. Right. You know, it's not like it was like a week later. Like, this fake person's been grooming Julie for three years, and Julie still had the wherewithal to be like, hold on a second, right? Yeah.

[Sarah]

What is going on?

[Patrick]

Thank God. You know, like, passport.

[Sarah]

Like, oh, my God.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So she realizes this is insane. So I reached out to my friend who I knew had connections to her man management. And I'll never forget I got a text that said, she has no idea who you are. And I said something like, well, then Tegan has a big problem. Well, then Tegan has a very big problem.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And I gotta say, I don't think they get into this enough. They get into it a little bit more later with other people. That must also have been devastating to Julie.

[Sarah]

Oh my God, of course.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean? Like to like we are skipping over that part here and it's not, I don't like it that like Julie. Julie has also been sharing intimate details about her life and also thinks she has this really trusted friend and this like famous person that like she's really connected, that really means something to Julie and it's taken away from her in an instant.

[Sarah]

Instant. So Friday, May 20, 2011, that's when like the Tegan and Sauer world explodes because Julie is talking to the manager and saying, oh my God, this person is pretending to be Tegan for three years. And also I have all of these intimate photos, like God knows what else she was sent. Right?

[Patrick]

Well, because Piers the agent is like, thank God for Julie. She told me everything she'd been sent. There was a demo called God Help Yourself which was a demo Tegan had written a few months ago. And Piers is saying this was an era where demos were under lock and fucking key.

[Sarah]

It's a real demo written by real Teigen, stolen by fake Teigen and sent by fake Teigen.

[Patrick]

Somehow this fake Teigen was able to get this thing that nobody should have been able to get.

[Sarah]

So it's a very real demo. The very real passports. Tegan and Sarah's mom really did have breast cancer that nobody knew about publicly. So I'm hearing this, I'm like, this is someone in their camp. This has to be someone close to them because how else? And then the photo of the new condo with the girlfriend, like, what?

[Patrick]

Right? I mean, and to think that the call is coming from within the house, you know what I mean, is terrifying because I just think about like we are on such a much, much, much, much, much smaller scale, but we have trusted advisors that we rely on for so many things. If I was looking around and thinking, oh my God, that person is selling me out to this, like, you know what I mean? Like, you tell these advisors every single thing.

[Sarah]

Let me tell you, betrayal is a fucking hell of a thing. When you are betrayed by someone or you think you're being betrayed by someone who is close to you, it is. Changes you forever.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So this like I've been in that situation where I'm like, I've known that person for eight years. There's no way this is going to happen. And the worst thing. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, what is going. It makes you feel insane and it makes you question everything.

[Patrick]

Yes, of course.

[Sarah]

I'm sure.

[Patrick]

And it changes the way that you, like, relate to people for the rest of your life.

[Sarah]

For the rest of your life. So now this person is known as fake Tegan or a Fegan.

[Patrick]

Yeah. This phantom person that got all these things that we have no idea how they got them.

[Sarah]

And right now we just think they're talking to Julie. So the band releases a statement on some message board or on their website or something, and they're like, hey, just an FYI, like, we're not in any kind of friendship or relationship with any of you. Like, we don't communicate over email. We'll see you at the merch booth for 10 minutes, I guess.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

But, like, we don't do that online. So if you think you're emailing or DMing with either one of us, you're not.

[Patrick]

You're not.

[Sarah]

And it turns out Fegan was communicating with a lot of other people. Multiple people came forward from all over the world saying that they, too, had.

[Patrick]

Been corresponding with someone who said they.

[Sarah]

Were Tegan for varying amounts of time. In some cases, it had been for years.

[Patrick]

Sometimes for years. There's hundreds of emails, there's videos, there's photos. Some of them are explicit, like, sexual things.

[Sarah]

How many people have the passports? We're not talking about the passports. This is a major.

[Patrick]

Well, Piers, the manager is. Cause he's like, the passports could open a major doorway into, like, major identity thefts.

[Sarah]

Yes. And it's like.

[Patrick]

And identity thefts on that level can ruin your life.

[Sarah]

Ruin your. Your life. So again, as Tegan. It's scary, it's disgusting, it's unsettling, it's violating. It's crazy making.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Yeah. And like, we see, like, Tegan and Erin the filmmaker are on zooms with a bunch of different Tegan and Sarah fans.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Patrick]

That have been duped by this Feegan, this fake Tegan.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And like, meeting the real Tegan for the first time. Like, hey, girl. And they're like. Tegan and Erin are like, how did this happen? And it's the same story every time.

[Sarah]

And it's the same story every time. But all of these fans are. It all starts because the fan who will end up being fake Tegan, you know, like, is, like, leading them into this trap. But it all starts because the fan who's been duped messaged what they thought was a private personal account of Tegan's Yeah. Like, one of them is a. Is a Last FM account, which, if you remember Last fm, I don't even.

[Patrick]

Know what that is.

[Sarah]

It was like, last fm, it was like a music tracking account. Now, like, AI does it and Spotify will do it, but it would find new music based on what you were listening to. But, like, that was a private. That wasn't public. That was supposed to be like, here's Tegan's secret last FM account.

[Patrick]

Listen, you and I are going to disagree on this. Like, if I think if there's a social media platform and you're using your real name on it, I think that people are allowed to DM you. I think it is up to the person to not respond or use a fake name.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean? Like, I think that, like, it's fine for a fan. I don't think any fan is expecting a response, but I do think that we should live in a world where. Where, I don't know, there needs to be some sort of verification process. Like, this is really me, Tegan, responding to you. You know what I mean?

[Sarah]

I guess. But to me, it's just like these people, which, like, no one is talking about is that, like, the Catfishy was reaching out to what they were told was, like, her private personal account. And then they're thinking, like, oh, okay, I'll do this. And I'm sure they thought it was going to be harmless. And the point is that Feegan is orchestrating all of this. I know that.

[Patrick]

And it's also just such early Internet days that nobody knew. Even the management team was like, we had no idea what to do. We had no idea how to protect them.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Patrick]

And Feegan is also, like. She's doing that thing where she's like.

[Sarah]

We'Ll talk more about, oh, what are you doing today?

[Patrick]

And they're like, oh, it's freezing.

[Sarah]

I'm in Denver. And I would look at your tour schedule and you would be in Denver.

[Patrick]

Right, for that day. And I'd be like, oh, okay. And then, like, I started thinking, well.

[Sarah]

If it's really Tegan, like, they wouldn't be talking to me when shows are going on. They would never talk to me at the wrong time. It was always, like, the correct time when you would be available.

[Patrick]

She would never message, like, when Tegan would be on stage during a show, you know, like, this person or people are fucked up, but they'd start slow at first.

[Sarah]

The patience. Yeah, the patience. You have to have to do this.

[Patrick]

I mean, and we say this every time. Like, what was it? Sweet Bobby? You know, the years and years and all the Facebook profile building and all of the. You have to remember which lie. Yeah. I mean, it really, really is.

[Sarah]

You get addicted to it. And it's like a power thing, and it's like a. An insecurity thing. It's crazy.

[Patrick]

And. But the other thing that is so fucked in this thing with Tegan is that every one of these fans that were tricked say eventually the conversations turn sexual and flirty or mean or mean and abusive.

[Sarah]

Right? Because then it would be like, oh, this is. This is also what, like, sexual groomers do. Like, it's our little secret. Yes, you're the chosen one. Like, it's that feeling. So then, like, even if, like, Tegan air quotes was being mean, it's like, well, it's Tegan from Tegan and Sarah. I don't want to. I don't want this to stop. I love her.

[Patrick]

And also, like, I have to keep her secret. I can't tell anybody about. So that's how this vegan person is able to do it with hundreds of people.

[Sarah]

Right. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick]

Helix is back. Look, we all know this is the mattress brand that we love. It's the best. We've been using it for forever. I told this story last time that we let somebody stay at our apartment a few weeks ago, and they literally were texting me all morning, what is your mattress? Where did you get it? This is the best mattress I've ever slept on. I swear on Daisy's life, I am not making this up. Wow.

[Sarah]

Well, the thing about that I use, I have the midnight locks, which I love.

[Patrick]

Same, as a matter of fact.

[Sarah]

But you could tell that person to take the sleep quiz.

[Patrick]

That is literally what I did. I sent them the actual link. I'm like, it's a two minute sleep quiz. It's gonna ask you how you sleep, how your partner sleeps, if you have one, and they're like, within two minutes, they're gonna tell you the exact right mattress for you.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And I really went through a time where I was really struggling with sleeping, and I didn't know, like, what to do or how to fix it. I have to tell you, this Midnight Lux really, really helped me, because when.

[Patrick]

You'Re sleeping on the right mattress, I don't know, it makes all. Shockingly. Yeah.

[Sarah]

You're sleeping well, and sleep affects everything. Vitamin bing, bada boom. It starts at the mattress.

[Patrick]

Yeah, 100%. And here's the deal, fam. Helix is offering 20% off plus two free pillows on all mattress orders.

[Sarah]

Pillows are important, too. Just saying.

[Patrick]

And you get that by going to helix sleep.com tco. That's where you'll take the Helix sleep quiz. That's where you order the mattress, you get the free pillows.

[Sarah]

Yeah. It's great. And then you'll sleep better. And then you'll say thank you, and we'll say, you're welcome.

[Patrick]

Can I just say one more time, that's a really great deal, fam. You got to go check it out. It's helixsleep.com TCO and, like, once again, figure out the mattress for you. You get 20% off plus two free pillows.

[Sarah]

Yeah. For all mattress orders.

[Patrick]

I mean, it is the season to get free pillows. Yeah.

[Sarah]

Good night, everybody.

[Patrick]

Give yourself a gift of pillows.

[Sarah]

Yeah. In a not creepy way. Good night.

[Patrick]

Sleep well. Get out of here. She's saying get out of here.

[Sarah]

No. Sleep well.

[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Patrick]

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[Sarah]

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[Sarah]

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[Sarah]

Get into it, everyone.

[Patrick]

Tis the season. Tis the SEAS to play DraftKings now.

[Sarah]

Now Tara is another person, another fan. That's catfish. Now, this person is not sitting down with us. We only hear Tara over the phone. But Tara will become a major part of this story.

[Patrick]

Yes, yes. She was a fan since she was 13. She's now 34.

[Sarah]

Yeah, but the thing about Feegan being mean and abusive and everyone putting up with it is that, like, eventually someone's not going to want to put up with it because, yeah, it's dangerous because people are saying that they would try to confront real Tegan about the show. Shitty stuff. Fake Tegan was saying to them, that's dangerous.

[Patrick]

And the thing is, remember, like, at this point early on, Tegan is still going to the merch table. So, like, if you're abusing this person online for a year, pretending to be Tegan, she's going to show up at the merch table and be like, bitch, why are you being like that? And Tegan's going to have no idea who this person is.

[Sarah]

And it's too. And remember, like, where we started, the intimacy, the connection, the parasocial. We know that word now. But, like, it's a very intimate thing. And the reality is you don't really know them. So when you think you've been talking to Tegan for three years and you went through all this emotional stuff and then she's being addicted, and then you want to confront her, like, that's really dangerous.

[Patrick]

And this is what happens to Tara. Tara is saying their fake relationship that Tara thought was real turned abusive when it started to get, like, really volatile. I would get texts like, you know, I'm drinking all the time. And Sarah's really worried if it's all your fault, you know, none of your friends actually care about you. They're all going to leave you. And it just. It just got really ugly. Tegan is saying, I'm drinking every day. Sarah's worried about me. It's all your fault. Tara tries to confront Tegan, like, the real Tegan at a show. Tegan Free has no, like, just, like, looks scared, runs away, but these people still explain it away. It's like in Sweet Bobby, where Kareem, like, saw Bobby in real life, saw him at the nightclub in Brighton, and she's like, he was being weird. And, like, he looked like he didn't know who I was. But, like, that must have been, like, he must have been drunk. And we make these excuses in our head because we want these relationships to be real.

[Sarah]

We want it to be Tegan. But it is. If you really. And I think everyone has done that now. I know it was a different time. I know everyone was very emotional and it was Tegan and everyone loved her. But, like, for anyone to be sending you a demo.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Your favorite person on earth is sending you a secret demo. My manager will kill me. And they don't know you.

[Patrick]

Like, I would fall for this, no question. If I was. If I was, like, communicating with Paula Cole, let's say, like, my favorite chapel roan is sending me a Demo, I would hook line in sync right there.

[Sarah]

And the thing is, it's a. It is the demo. Yeah, the demo is real.

[Patrick]

That's exactly right.

[Sarah]

So it's very easy.

[Patrick]

Like, that's why I don't think these fans have done anything wrong. You know, there's one woman that we meet that was texting Tegan's cell ph. I agree with you. That is different.

[Sarah]

Too much.

[Patrick]

But I think that if they're. If you're on with your real name, you don't owe anybody a response. But, like, they didn't do anything wrong by taking a shot, you know?

[Sarah]

Yeah. It's when. It's when they're told this is her private, secret account that she doesn't want anyone to know. And I unearthed it, and here you go.

[Patrick]

Sure.

[Sarah]

That, to me, is a big line.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And no one is really, like, talking about that either.

[Patrick]

Yeah. It's also different back then because, like, I'm thinking about, like, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Like, the only way that could be secret would be, like, if you used a fake name. You know what I mean? Like, you're not like. Like, so if Beyonce is on Twitter or whatever, like, she's gonna get DMs from everybody.

[Sarah]

Right. You know, and Beyonce isn't in her own DMs.

[Patrick]

Exactly. But I'm just saying that, like, I would never begrudge a fan for taking a shot. Now, if you're. If you're seeking out their secret private whatever, and you're told it's their secret, private whatever, then you shouldn't do that.

[Sarah]

Right? Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

For these people who are super accessible anyway, that's why we're here. That's why everyone believed it, because Tegan would do that.

[Patrick]

Well, and Tegan is gonna say at the end, like. And it takes her a long time to get there, but she' I'm really.

[Sarah]

Proud of the Teagan and Sarah community and the fans, but fan culture is. I want to know more. I want to know more. I want to know more. It's insatiable. Because you won't ever really know me.

[Patrick]

You're never really going to know me, you know, but we can't change, like, it's the way human beings are. That's why the boundaries have to be established.

[Sarah]

They have to be established. So Max is here. Max is a social psychologist and a cyber terrorism expert and is going to teach us about the psychology of catfishing.

[Patrick]

He's also, like, the calmest guy I've ever met. For such a big, scary job.

[Sarah]

He's like, I don't know why we're talking. Like, this is very simple. It all makes total sense to Max. It's all about, like, the catfishers. Catfisher. Yeah, the catfishers. Insecurity. So it's a way for them to feel confident and secure. He says there's a significant psychological reward. It's a power move. It's about control. Like, we've learned about this.

[Patrick]

He also says it's women. He says it's primarily women who seem to, like, be able to pull this.

[Sarah]

Off, this manipul, this. He says young women are really good at this kind of manipulation.

[Patrick]

I didn't love the way that he said it, you know, but I was like, whatever. It sounded misogynistic to me. But he's saying that. I think his. Statistically, when this happens, it's usually a woman doing it.

[Sarah]

And I think for the fandom.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

For someone to be so obsessed with Tegan and Sarah to want to do this in their fandom. Look at their fandom. It's 99.9% queer women.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Sarah]

You know?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

But once the secret is out, the fans are devastated. Now, people who were catfish, like, the band is ruined for them now because now it's like, either Tegan was really mean to you, or you thought you were confiding in a hero.

[Patrick]

You're embarrassed. It's like. And again, I go back to, like, it turns sexual so many times. Like, I just. It's so. It's. They also say this word a lot to the violation of it, you know? And now also, Tegan and Sarah are also out there, like, living in fear.

[Sarah]

Because now, like, the person, whoever this Fegan is.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Is now hacking Tegan. And everyone around Tegan, their tattoo artists or friends, family, managers. Tegan would get emails from her friends and colleagues being like, hey, girl, can you send me that password that I needed?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And then the friend would be like, I didn't send you that. So, like, her friends, it's like, if Ashley was being hacked and Mike was being hacked and you were being hacked and Natalie was being hacked.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Also sending me emails.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

It's so crazy.

[Patrick]

But it's also like that. That. That story. I have two things I want to say here. Number one, I saw recently the most horrifying TikTok of Taylor Swift talking about. Somebody asked her, is it true your bodyguards carry around wound care?

[Sarah]

Oh, yeah, Like.

[Patrick]

And Taylor looks horrified. And she's like, I'm not going to really get into this. But we need it.

[Sarah]

Of course.

[Patrick]

We, like, we, her bodyguards need to be able to have life saving equipment on them, standing one foot from her, which is fucking. That is insane.

[Sarah]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

But the other thing with Renee, she's the one who tells the story about Tegan, called me and she asked if.

[Sarah]

I remembered the email I sent her asking for her password for her file sharing program. I was like, absolutely not. I would never do that.

[Patrick]

What are you talking about? What are you talking about? I never fucking did that.

[Sarah]

But it came from Renee's real email.

[Patrick]

Well, I'm saying if I got an email from you asking me for my password, I would give it to you, but I would call you. I'd be like, girl, like you. Right. You know what I mean?

[Sarah]

Of course.

[Patrick]

Like, I understand it's early days, but mistakes were made here on everybody's side. Yeah. Like, Tegan, you should not be emailing your passwords to your file, sharing anything to anybody. And nobody should be asking you for it.

[Sarah]

Right. You know, I mean, don't you. How many times do you get the. Like, Chase will never ask you for your password. Like, whatever.

[Patrick]

But Renee might.

[Sarah]

But Renee might. Good old Renee.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

We're also still not talking about the passports. I feel like it's huge. And we're not talking about.

[Patrick]

Are we a passport podcast now?

[Sarah]

We're a passport podcast now. That should also be like, who is it? Like, I know my thing is instead of, like, giving them a silly nickname name like Feegan, I feel like other steps. And I know I'm looking back with hindsight, and I have the full story now, but my question is, like, that is a major breach.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

There wasn't like a big company meeting about, like, what we're going to do. Did everyone get new passports?

[Patrick]

I mean, I did.

[Sarah]

We changed the passwords.

[Patrick]

They do tell us a lot that, like, they made the decision not to talk too much about it, you know, publicly. Right.

[Sarah]

But we're at the documentary now, so what'd you do privately?

[Patrick]

I know, I'm with you. Like, it is really scary. I think there is even when we see Tegan today sitting with fans that this happened, and they're like, girl, it's still happening. Here's where it's still happening. And Tegan's like, oh, no. It feels too big to be able to do anything about it.

[Sarah]

Because it is.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I know.

[Sarah]

That's. I'm sorry. We just cut to the end. There's nothing to be done.

[Patrick]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Sarah]

Ever.

[Patrick]

I know. I know, but we were talking about this before we started on Mike. This could happen to anybody. Anybody. This could literally. Famous or not famous. This could happen to anybody. Yeah, you know, but once again, when Renee was like, girl, I never sent that email. And you just put your passwords out into the universe. Once again, Tegan has to look at everybody and can't trust anybody. So Lindsey, Lindsay. How do you say the last name? Brian. Thank you. I could not make that. Why R. Makes sense.

[Sarah]

Burns.

[Patrick]

Lindsey Burns is here. She's a photographer. She met Tegan in 2006. We're gonna get some lesbian drama.

[Sarah]

Met Lindsey at a show and started a two year pursuit of her. I was, like, mesmerized by her. It consumed my life. We talked a thousand times and text. It was like five hours on the phone. It was flirty, but then she didn't want to date me. Yeah, but they're constantly texting and emailing. It's what we would call now a situationship, I would think. But nothing really ever happened between them. But Teigen was very obviously in love with.

[Patrick]

They eventually become in a relationship. Then later in the documentary, we get like, now Tegan's out to dinner with Lindsey and her new girlfriend, and I'm like, I love lesbians so much. They just never leave each other. They just stay. My mother has friends from 49 years.

[Sarah]

Ago that she doesn't even like all that much.

[Patrick]

My mother's ex girlfriend's new wife is the one that visits my mother at the nursing home. More than anybody else, they hate each other. No, no, no, no. Those are different lesbians.

[Sarah]

Okay. But there was a time where they hate each other, where they're like, not fucking on Christmas, not when someone's in need. And then they put all their.

[Patrick]

Those were different lesbians that my mom was feuding with in grad school, and they tried to get my mom kicked out of grad school. And when my mom got breast cancer, they led the charge of, like, leading the vacuuming brigade.

[Sarah]

They opened the bridge and.

[Patrick]

No, no, no, no, no. They did not speak to my mother. But they came over and vacuum the.

[Sarah]

By any chance?

[Patrick]

No, but they would cook for my mother. They would bring the food over. They would not speak to any of us. They would leave the food and leave.

[Sarah]

They might be Sicilian.

[Patrick]

Probably. Lesbians are the best, so.

[Sarah]

But they're like constantly texting and emailing. After two years, they start dating. And Teigen and Sarah wrote an entire album about it called the Con.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah]

Talking about pursuing this woman for years Trying to date her. The point that they're making here is that Teigen was. They both were like, super open on stage. Their whole lives were out there. Like, the album, the lyrics, the whatever.

[Patrick]

And like, that's also how you build a family. You know what I mean?

[Sarah]

And also, as an artist, what is she supposed to do? Not write about her life. That's her job.

[Patrick]

And not talk about it like that. She's trying to give the people what they want. You know, they came to the gig.

[Sarah]

Want some lesbian drama. What are they gonna. You can't send them home empty handed.

[Patrick]

I don't think it would be possible to send them home empty handed. Like, you know what I mean? Come for the show, stay for the drama, please.

[Sarah]

So this. But this was another level of intimacy for the fans. And the Catfish was using this for fun.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

So now what happens is that they create a fake Lindsay account. So there was fake Tegan and fake Lindsay, and then the mastermind of it all would, like, be using both of these accounts to make a conversation between fake Teigen and fake Lindsay. And then they would include a fan.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

So that it looked like they were dming with Teigen and Lindsay.

[Patrick]

I mean, is that clear? I mean, it's as clear as you can possibly make it.

[Sarah]

Also, this is after the passports. After this. Like, the thing is, the Catfish has been around for years and like, it's a little bit like, oh, no again, where was the big meeting about the passports? Where was the. Where was the boundaries?

[Patrick]

I love you, but we gotta move on from the passports.

[Sarah]

But, like, my point is, shouldn't boundaries been up just a little bit? I'm not saying don't write about your life. I'm just saying, like, shouldn't you maybe?

[Patrick]

I mean, it's the conversation you've been having with me for eight years.

[Sarah]

I'm trying, man.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean? I know, I know.

[Sarah]

It's just like, you gotta hit rock bottom for yourself. I can't make it happen. You know? You gotta wanna do it.

[Patrick]

I know, I know. The point is, Teigen is now here to say major fucking changes needed to be made.

[Sarah]

Well, but they're also saying that Tegan and Sarah had a relationship with the cops because of, quote, obsessive fans. I'm like, so this is not your first time at the rodeo?

[Patrick]

That doesn't surprise me, like, at all. Like, you know what I mean that, like, people really. And Tegan will get more into it later. But, like, I mean, they were awful to them the way that they are Awful. To, like, all women in any entertainment industry. Like, there is a price to pay as a woman who's famous, of course.

[Sarah]

You know, but, like, they had this relationship with the cops for other what they describe as obsessive fans. So they bring, like, this vegan situation to the cops, and the cops are like, oh, girls, relax. It's fine. Nothing to be done. Nothing to be done.

[Patrick]

There's literally nothing we can do about this.

[Sarah]

Sorry. Idiots.

[Patrick]

Yeah, totally.

[Sarah]

Nice fucking haircut. Nice weak arms.

[Patrick]

Is that what? Asymmetrical? Interesting. Oh, so interesting. It's the same haircut. Cool.

[Sarah]

Like, okay, these are the same cops who know about your obsessive fans. We're not seeing a pattern here. We're not maybe trying to play a chess just one or two moves ahead just to see what can happen. Absolutely not. Go home, you dumb idiots.

[Patrick]

Dumb idiots. And now they're kind of starting to learn maybe how these documents were leaked.

[Sarah]

We quickly were able to establish that our manager's idisc, like, where they stored a lot of documentation and information about us that it had been breached.

[Patrick]

There was an IDISC account that the management team had that had gotten hacked. And they're able to, like, go into the properties of this other document that was shared with that woman Julie, that, like, they go into the properties of the document and they can see that it was created by a woman named Joanne who lived in the UK.

[Sarah]

So the manager's iDisk account was like, just. It was kind of like the cloud.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Back in the day, like, pre cloud, cloud. And on that disc was a forged tour document. So they can see that, like, someone hacked into this disc and then created a fake document on that disc. Like, it's a fake tour document that just lives on the disc now. And it's like, did no one notice the fucking addition of a new document? That doesn't make any sense.

[Patrick]

The person who did that was smart enough people to do that, but not smart enough to not be able to, like, leave breadcrumbs as to who they are in the properties of the document. Right.

[Sarah]

Well, that's the thing. Like, that's what I'm so confused. All of this was online.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So I don't understand why there aren't more breadcrumbs. You can be as smart as you think you are, but, like, breadcrumbs are left everywhere.

[Patrick]

And, like, just to simplify this, like, the management team goes after this woman, Joanne. Then they get an email from Joanne's mom, Becky. They're like, joanne didn't do this. Then they go after Becky. Then they get an email from the real Becky's lawyer. Being that Becky that you're yelling at is not the real Becky. Yeah, she knows nothing about what you're talking about. Like, you guys have been hacked. You're being idiots. These people are playing you.

[Sarah]

And we're in the UK and there's a guy named Mark who lives in Maine, and that's your real suspect.

[Patrick]

Okay, but I mean, the point is, whoever the hacker is is very sophisticated, and this management team is very not. I run the management team.

[Sarah]

Wild goose chase.

[Patrick]

Because then they're like, where is this gonna end up? Is this a predator situation? And so we suddenly had two possible culprits now. And so we decided to issue cease and desist letters to both Joanne and Mark.

[Sarah]

All right, I guess we'll send, like, strongly worded letters to both Joanne and Mark. So they send cease and desist letters, which I guess when the cops are like, nothing to do, idiots. I guess you do what you can do.

[Patrick]

But they're sending cease and desist letters to people that they've just been told don't actually exist. They're like, but we're gonna send them cease and desist letters anyway.

[Sarah]

That part tied my brain in a pretzel.

[Patrick]

I was like, what?

[Sarah]

None of it made any sense to me. I still don't get what happened when.

[Patrick]

We thought we found the guy. Because they left the Joann breadcrumbs in that document. They did that on purpose to throw them off the set.

[Sarah]

And then this guy Mark in Maine, he doesn't exist either.

[Patrick]

Mark and Main does not exist.

[Sarah]

Okay, bye. Like, I need something to happen. I'm just like, what are we doing?

[Patrick]

All I want to do is get a little bit closer.

[Sarah]

Like, I just need something happen.

[Patrick]

Oh, God.

[Sarah]

Travel down the road.

[Patrick]

Rocket Money is back. We were both just talking off Mike about how much we both love this thing.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Here's the thing. The end of the year is fun, fun, fun. But the start of the year, everyone wants to be, like, super organized, and.

[Patrick]

They come at the same time.

[Sarah]

I know, but you can kind of get yourself ready to start the year off right with Rocket Money. Because Rocket Money is the personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Monitors your spending.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

And helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. This is the best way to start the year.

[Patrick]

I gotta tell you. All of the things that it can do are amazing, but it is really helping you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. I had, like, When I signed up kind of as a goof, and I found, like, five that I didn't even know from forever ago that I've been paying for years.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And the thing is like, that. All at 3.99 here, at $4.99 here. So you can see all your subscriptions in one place. You can know exactly where your money's going. And then for the ones you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them.

[Patrick]

And Rocket Money will even try to negotiate to. To lower your bills. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save. Then you ask them to negotiate for you. They'll deal with customer service so you don't have to.

[Sarah]

That is invaluable.

[Patrick]

That right there should be the whole business model.

[Sarah]

I mean, it kind of is. It should be called talking about it. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to 740 bucks a year when using all of the app's premium features. It's really amazing.

[Patrick]

It was. You're, like, wasting money not using it. So, fam. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.

[Sarah]

Go to RocketMoney.com obsessed today.

[Patrick]

That's RocketMoney.com obsessed RocketMoney.com obsessed. We really are obsessed.

[Sarah]

I know you'll be shocked when you go into that dashboard. You'll be like, what?

[Patrick]

And, like, they'll send you an email when it's all canceled. Like, it's like, you didn't even have to do anything. You aren't.

[Sarah]

Or when they raise the money, we just are now doing, like, two ads in one. But when they raise the subscription, they'll tell you, like, by the way, girl, that's out of your budget. Tegan is explaining that she and Sarah did things differently with fans.

[Patrick]

This broke my heart a little bit because Tegan was like, I want to be the one who's standing outside the bus signing the autographs. I want to go to the merch table. I want to meet everybody. I want everyone to be invited. And she's like, unfortunately, Tegan, she's saying to herself, it's not safe to do it that way.

[Sarah]

Because Tegan realizes that being that open, she says it put the entire organization at risk. And, like, it's not fair to do that. So when you are at a certain level, you have to think about the other people around you. And she didn't realize that because everyone was really sweet and nice.

[Patrick]

No one's mad at Tegan. And she's doing all the right things, making all the changes now.

[Sarah]

And she. But she's like, those kinds of act, you have to think about the rest of the organization. And I love that she called it an organization.

[Patrick]

Yes, of course. Because that's what it is, 100%.

[Sarah]

And again, you're standing and not like Sarah wasn't out at the tour bus, but like, it was just different vibes and like, you know, in front of you, the people.

[Patrick]

I know Sarah. I'm looking at my Sarah, you're looking at your tv.

[Sarah]

I'm just saying. But the people in the moment are fucking nice.

[Patrick]

Yes, yes.

[Sarah]

They're awesome. Right? So she's thinking, what is the harm here? We all look alike. It's fine. We all had the same breakup, essentially. Like in that moment.

[Patrick]

Tegan is totally open to it. But the problem is, and I'm sorry to say, fans, like, he just too bad this breaks the original fans hearts. Cause they're just kind of like.

[Sarah]

We immediately introduced VIP ticketing, so there was no more going out to merch table, no more standing in front of the bus assigning things, no more walking the lineup. Like, I just created more of a formal process to connect. We had their names, their email addresses. There was a photo of each person that met us. It was just more controlled. And they were mad.

[Patrick]

They think they're getting too famous and we're nothing to them.

[Sarah]

Look, the fact of the matter is, the more fans you have, the less you can interact with them.

[Patrick]

100%.

[Sarah]

That is like the fucking theory of relativity or whatever. It's gravity. It's science. So if it's VIP tickets, no more hanging out at the merch booth, or they're making things more official and more professional. And the fans are mad because it's this sense of entitlement, of like, well, I've been here. I heard you on cop college radio. Like, how dare you?

[Patrick]

And what's wild about that is it's just like what you get for that fan is you get the cred of being able to say, I was there first. It does not.

[Sarah]

That's all you get.

[Patrick]

Give you access.

[Sarah]

No.

[Patrick]

You know, no way. And especially it's like. And unfortunately, Tegan and Sarah can't like, hold a meeting with their, like, biggest fans and say, like, we gotta keep ourselves safe. We gotta distance ourselves a little bit. They just do it. And the fans just have to accept it or not.

[Sarah]

I mean, of course, like, that is so crazy.

[Patrick]

But like, in my brain I'm like, can we all just like, get on a zoom so I can explain to you what's happening here. No, I know. I'm the Tegan, you're the Sarah. I know, I know.

[Sarah]

I mean, like, there, it's so. It's just so bizarre because we like Tegan. I want to say, like, to Everett, to all the Tegans, you could just say Patrick of the world, like, because I'm just. I'm picturing her out at the tour bus. Right. Or at the Birch Table. And I understand, because that's fucking fun. Yes, like, I understand it's really fun. And in the moment, of course, to your face, they're nice to you, but, like, in the moment when she's there, she's like, what's the harm? You can't see past that because like we were saying earlier, they were feeding each other in a really very real, beautiful, magical way. So it's hard to, like, see past that. But Tegan, you don't know them either.

[Patrick]

Exactly.

[Sarah]

Like, it goes both ways. So when it's parasocial both ways, that's not great either.

[Patrick]

Yep. And what happens in this moment is this is when that song Closer happens. And there's something about that song that blew them the fuck up. And when it. I gotta tell you, when it played at this point, I burst into tears.

[Sarah]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

I was. I. I loved this song so much. The whole album is so good. I mean, I loved it, loved it, loved it. And I haven't heard it in forever.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And it was them on Letterman. I remember them being on Letterman. I stayed up to watch them on Letterman.

[Sarah]

I mean, they're doing the late night shows. Taylor Swift has them as special guests, that they're on the red tour in 2013 in the LA. Stop.

[Patrick]

It's incredible.

[Sarah]

But with this we're learning there was also an infant flux of wild, obsessive, unwell, stalkery, intrusive stuff that was happening. Our videos would leak online two nights before they premiered. Our record leaked online 24 hours before it came out. Everything. We would get in our heads and be like, is it fake Teigen?

[Patrick]

They were like indie famous before and now they are famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous.

[Sarah]

But they're still them. Yes, but now they're famous famous.

[Patrick]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sarah]

So October 2013, Fegan has returned and she's. Feagan is emailing real Teigen's friends using real Tegan's old email address.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

So this is where we meet jt. This is very frustrating to me because JT is someone who has, like, a major story to tell, and they weren't sure if JT was gonna be here.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So they refer to JT as Steph a lot. Like some fake name they gave jt And JT says she's horrified by it, but they just continue to do it.

[Patrick]

Well, we learn about Steph before we meet jt who are the same person.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So we didn't know that JT was gonna participate either. And so what they're. When you. If you hear clips where JT or Steph, they're the same person.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But we learn about Steph slash jt. They're this Vancouver musician. And what happens is Teigen is out to dinner with a bunch of friends, and she's like, just a reminder. This fake Tegan person has been, like, out there pretending to be me, pretending to be in relationships with all these people for all these years. And Renee, Tegan's friend, is like, girl, you know that person, steph/jt they've been saying that they've been in a secret relationship with you for years as well. So, like, this person that Tegan's been hanging out with kind of on the reg over the last couple of years secretly thinks that they are secretly in a relationship with Tegan because of Fegan.

[Sarah]

So let's rewind, because here's what happened.

[Patrick]

Because it's impossible to make it make sense.

[Sarah]

No. JT is a Vancouver musician. And they explain.

[Patrick]

I grew up in Edmonton, Alberta, partially.

[Sarah]

In a group home. My mom ended up giving us away to social services.

[Patrick]

Music, for me, was, like, the one thing that made sense. That was the. That I could truly express what I was feeling in the moment.

[Sarah]

And it was, like, safe. Music was super important to her, and especially, like, queer musicians, and that was, like, a big thing. So in 2007, JT meets Tegan through a friend. They meet at a dinner party, and they kind of ignore each other the whole time because they're both awkward.

[Patrick]

Yeah. They're both kind of into each other, and so they definitely ignore each other.

[Sarah]

And it was like a setup. And that's always kind of like, that pressure of the person setting you up, like, looking at you, like, just leave me alone.

[Patrick]

JT is fucking awesome, by the way.

[Sarah]

So later that night, Tegan texts jt and Tegan's like, hey, like, let's hang out and be friends with in real life. Kind of friendly, kind of flirty. They did meet up a couple times for coffee. It doesn't really go anywhere.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Because Tegan goes everywhere. She goes on Tour.

[Patrick]

She gets big and she goes on tour and they're staying in touch kind of. And it's just one of those things.

[Sarah]

All emails.

[Patrick]

It's all emails.

[Sarah]

So this goes on for a few years. And sometimes the emails are really, really long, like long letters. Sometimes they're more like texts, but it'll go. It goes on for years. Sometimes there's like a lull in the conversation and JT reaches out to say hi, like, hey, it's been a while. Just saw you, like, on the Red tour with Taylor Swift. How's it going?

[Patrick]

Just for clarity, up to this point, JT is communic communicating with the real Tegan. The real Tegan.

[Sarah]

Then after that lull.

[Patrick]

Yeah, look, of a year or two or whatever, J.T.

[Sarah]

Checks in. Hey, what's going on? J.T. gets an auto response back. I am no longer using this email address. Be advised, delete this email from your address book. Here's my new one. Yeah, my new email. So JT starts emailing the new email address, and it's like, no time has passed.

[Patrick]

And if this is Fegan. So JT is no longer communicating with Tegan. She's communicating with Fegan, but doesn't know it.

[Sarah]

But she was emailing real Tegan, who's like, this isn't my address anymore. Use this one.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And then Fegan like, what the fuck?

[Patrick]

I know. And who knows how that happened? But we do know that JT is now communicating with fake Tegan.

[Sarah]

Unless Fegan hacked that account, locked Teigen out of it, and then was sending that fake auto reply.

[Patrick]

Because Tegan does say later on that she got hacked twice and had to change all of her stuff. So, like, you know what I mean?

[Sarah]

Unless the hacker directing people to make it look even more like the real Tegan.

[Patrick]

Exactly.

[Sarah]

So it's all like, hey, like, haven't heard from you. Like, hope all is well. Like, you know, JT's trying to, like, kind of ask for tickets, but not really ask for tickets, and just saying, you know, I was trying to get tickets. You're all sold out. Like, are you going to release any more? Which is the way you try to play it cool when you kind of knew someone and now they're super famous and now you're still trying to be friends, but everyone's asking for tickets.

[Patrick]

If any of my shows sell out and you guys want to see them, just DM me. I will get you in.

[Sarah]

Of course you will.

[Patrick]

I will get. If I have to stand you in the dressing room. Right?

[Sarah]

We've learned Nothing.

[Patrick]

So I am always available on all of my platforms at any time.

[Sarah]

So Tegan's like, hey, actually, we aren't releasing any more tickets. The guest list is pretty full too.

[Patrick]

Yeah, ouch, I saw that.

[Sarah]

I'll let you know if any space is free. Up. How are you? So this Tegan, even the new Tegan.

[Patrick]

The guest was a pretty full two girls, so.

[Sarah]

Which, like, nobody, like, JT did not ask about the guest list. Like, this Tegan is harsh. Well, because this is not the real Tegan.

[Patrick]

Fake Tegan doesn't, like, can't get real tickets.

[Sarah]

And also, to be clear, real Tegan, this is no shade. I'm just telling you a fact.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Real Tegan isn't bending over backwards to reach out and check in with real JT either. So, like, the lull kind of happened for a reason. They went separate roads in their lives, which happens all the time. I'm just saying.

[Patrick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah]

The real Tegan wouldn't have said this, but also, the real Tegan isn't trying to be friends with JT right now anyway.

[Patrick]

100%.

[Sarah]

No other reason than life is happening. And she's famous.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And it's like, so then this is what always happens. Like, the communication between JT and fake Tegan becomes more consistent, then it becomes, like, sexual, and then it becomes abusive.

[Sarah]

Right. So it's like, you know, do you miss me as much as I miss you? Like, blah, blah, blah.

[Patrick]

But then jt, who's like, girl, I know you in real life at this stage. I remember, like, eventually just being really.

[Sarah]

Annoyed that we hadn't met up because.

[Patrick]

I had seen she was in Vancouver.

[Sarah]

So I got a little bit more.

[Patrick]

Bold and I was like, why aren't we meeting up?

[Sarah]

And basically being like, the ultimatum, like, if you don't show up, I'm, like, not interested in continuing to talk to you anymore.

[Patrick]

Because.

[Sarah]

Because this is insane. I'm not going to continue to talk to a ghost.

[Patrick]

JT's not a fan.

[Sarah]

JT's 100% right.

[Patrick]

Right. Because JT's a friend. JT's not somebody who, like, met Tegan or Fegan through the music. Like, they were friends first.

[Sarah]

Right. And jt, like, good for you, jt, this is the right move. But Fegan's like, you want a ghost? I'll show you a ghost. Never talks to JT again.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

So the management team now, like, that's one side of it.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Meanwhile, all the Fegan stuff has been happening with Tegan and Sarah. And then the Management reaches out to JT to explain what's going on.

[Patrick]

Now, can I take this for a second, please? Because in a twist that I did not see coming, JT is the first person we meet who, when they're told, like, no, no, no, no, no. That wasn't the real Teigen you were talking to. Fake Teigen. JT doesn't believe it. JT is saying, that is not true. That is the real Teigen. She was awful. She's abusive. She's afraid that I'm gonna, like, expose her, and now she's sending her management team to shut me down.

[Sarah]

Because if JT knew Teigen in real life, she had two multiple phone numbers. They were friends.

[Patrick]

Yes. And she feels that she was treated really badly by Teigen. That Teigen, like, made it romantic, made it sexual, all via email, then ghosted her. And JT takes to the Internet and starts talking shit about Teigen, like, trying to expose her as a bad person. Because JT does not believe that Fegan is real. And so JT is saying, I will stop. I will cease and desist, but I want an in person apology from my former friend. This is a perfectly reasonable request.

[Sarah]

Who has mutual friends. They were set up on a date. Like, people. Everyone knew them.

[Patrick]

Tegan is saying, like, I knew JT through multiple friend groups. Like, they were. They knew each other. And JT is like, you want me to believe that that is a fake person? I've been talking to get the real person to come and tell me, and she doesn't.

[Sarah]

So even now, like, today, JT is pissed at the real Tegan. Because at the end of the day, JT is like, tegan and I knew each other in real life. She never reached out. She never said, I'm sorry. She never gave me her side of the story. The real human response to something like.

[Patrick]

That, no matter who you are, is.

[Sarah]

To make sure the other person who was involved in the wreck of this mess is okay. Nobody made sure I was okay. You should have just checked in.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Like, we knew each other in real life. And she goes to this. No one ever checked on me to see if I was okay.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And I know everyone's going through a lot, and I know Tegan's life was a mess because of this, but I 100% hear what JT is saying. Like, wait, now it's happening to one of of your friends? It's not just a fan of yours, girl.

[Patrick]

You know, and I understand that, like, Tegan had 80 advisors around her saying, like, you do not comment on this at all. You don't say anything. You stay quiet. The only way to make this go away is just stay out of it. You don't do anything. I get it. She's being advised. And, like, she's also here to say, like, my mom's sister was dying. Everything I was missing, everything.

[Sarah]

Everything was a mess. Everything blew up.

[Patrick]

Yes. Yes.

[Sarah]

And then what happened is that JT doesn't get what they want, which. Which is a personal communication with the real Teigen to, like, prove it. So JT goes online and tells a story from JT's perspective, which involves talking a lot of shit about Teigen. And if you're jt, like, where's the crime here?

[Patrick]

I totally agree with you. Because the other thing. What happens to jt, who has no power, if I may?

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Because JT was like, one of the things we didn't get to was JT said when they moved to Vancouver, she didn't know who she was. She wasn't, like, she didn't feel loved and accepted anywhere until she started working at lesbian bars and in the music scene. And all of a sudden, she's saying after that, a lot of people didn't.

[Sarah]

Want to be around me.

[Patrick]

Like, music spaces became uncomfortable for me.

[Sarah]

I didn't want to be even in queer spaces. I still don't want to be in.

[Patrick]

Queer spaces because I could feel people's.

[Sarah]

Conversations and their body language and their energy change when I entered a room.

[Patrick]

So this person who, like, was raised on the street, essentially, who found these, like, a couple of safety places to go, loses everything. And Tegan, who has everything, can't even give JT the courtesy of a coffee to be like, girl, I'm so sorry.

[Sarah]

And then everything went online. So Tegan's people are saying, do not engage with this person. You can't give them what they want because they're talking shit on the Internet, which. Also. Very valid.

[Patrick]

Very valid.

[Sarah]

So it's like, everything is a mess here. But I. Because for jt, when. When JT says all the spaces, like, where they found peace and acceptance were ripped from them because everyone just sided, and it's like, you're not involved in this. What side?

[Patrick]

Right. Right.

[Sarah]

What are you saying?

[Patrick]

Yeah, if you just zoom out and see it from the perspective of, like, JT is a person with no power, and Tegan as a person with all the power, it's kind of hard to feel sorry for Tegan.

[Sarah]

It's in the. With this.

[Patrick]

In this moment.

[Sarah]

It's tough in this, Tom. I mean, it's all. But I know everyone's life was exploding, so whatever.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

But like at first, everyone, including me. And I still think this. I think that Feegan has to be someone they know in real life.

[Patrick]

Yes. Right. I don't know if Tegan is gonn be so willing to just give her passwords at the request of an email.

[Sarah]

That's true.

[Patrick]

Which we know did happen. I mean, remember when like Hillary Clinton got catfished for her passwords? Like, I mean people fall for that shit. All smart people fall for that shit all the time.

[Sarah]

So the passwords.

[Patrick]

I'll tell you this. If Piers the manager is in his own brain being like, oh my God, that time that I got that suspicious email and I.

[Sarah]

And I click that link or he's.

[Patrick]

Certainly not going to tell us on camera. You know what I mean? He very easily could know exactly what happened.

[Sarah]

Then why are we here? I'm really asking.

[Patrick]

No, I know, I know.

[Sarah]

If we're going to finally make that this all these years later.

[Patrick]

I know.

[Sarah]

What are we doing?

[Patrick]

I. Well, he's not the manager anymore, so.

[Sarah]

He's not. But I understand like the passports are on the shared. Oh, we're about to. We are. Because that like. But that. I understand that's the management. But like the photos of her condo. I'm just trying to think if the whole thing is like nothing was really online before.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Where did we get these intimate personal photos?

[Patrick]

I got it. Well, they're not that intimate. They're intimate in the sense that they're like in her home. They're not like sexy photos. I gotta tell you, I think that I am like Tegan in more ways than one. She probably like emailed them to somebody. Yeah. And like, and like this person now has access to like old email accounts that Tegan doesn't even look at anymore. Cuz she like got hacked and she changed them. So now there's email pictures that were. I mean, I'm sure there's like a trove of pictures in those email exchanges. And Tegan is like willingly giving up her passwords. It probably isn't that complicated. Right.

[Sarah]

So the point that they're making is that like everyone thought it had to be someone close to them, but Tegan's like. When I actually went through and read some of the conversation between Fegan and Julie, I really realized that they didn't know anything. It was like more like headline information.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And so that is when I realized that this was a fan talking to other fans and that these people did.

[Patrick]

Not Know us, their headlines.

[Sarah]

Even though they were able to get the demos and they had the information about their mom's cancer and all that stuff. But this is where we kind of just like, we got to talk about fans a little bit.

[Patrick]

Yes. Yes.

[Sarah]

Because fans, for the most part, are amazing.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

But everything gets to a point where inevitably, there's a very shitty faction of people who will ruin it for everyone else. And. And it happens every time in every industry, in communities of all sizes.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah]

And the thing about music that's so fucking great is that, like, you can put any meaning to a song. Any song can speak to you. You can feel very strongly about relating to lyrics that someone wrote that's like, oh, my God, these lyrics are my exact situation.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

No, they're not. But how gorgeous that you get to feel that way. That's the beauty of it. That's what makes being a fan so incredible, and that's why the connection between fans is magical. You're sitting there talking about sisters at rock climbing.

[Patrick]

You know what I mean?

[Sarah]

Like, that. God, it's so fucking great.

[Patrick]

How g can I get. You know what I mean? It is. It's so great.

[Sarah]

But there are people who take it beyond that, because you don't actually know the person writing the song. It's not actually your situation.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

You got to realize, like, there are boundaries there. But for some reason, like, finally, we're using the word parasocial because it's like, they didn't actually write it for you. You don't actually know them.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And it's. You know, Tegan has this moment where she's, like, looking at the camera, and she's like, I know a lot of very famous queer people, and we all have the same experience, which is, like, the fans who say that they love you the most are the one that are gonna go and be the meanest about you online.

[Sarah]

I mean, that's.

[Patrick]

You know.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And this is what I was saying. I could see how it's so personal to members of the queer community because you don't get to be seen in music that often. Like, even what you were just saying, you know, like, I have to listen to songs written by women to hear them pining for men. You know what I mean? So for these women to hear songs written by women where they're pining for women, it's even more meaningful for them.

[Sarah]

And you look the same and you have. You know, it's like. It's a very. It's just like we're all one.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And, like, in a lot of ways, you are, but not in, like, the most important way.

[Patrick]

Yes. You don't know each other 100%.

[Sarah]

That's it. And how beautiful that you feel seen by this person.

[Patrick]

But, you know, like, there is something about. I gotta say that, like, I was listening to somebody say the other day that, like, whenever they see a kid that doesn't want to be famous, they feel like the parent is doing a great job because the kid feels seen and celebrated in their own life. They're not looking for that later. There are those famous people who need the adoration of the fans, the same way that the fans need the. The connection to the famous person.

[Sarah]

Well, you can tell in a heartbeat because nothing's genuine.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

If you're in it just for the sake of being famous, then first of all, it's not gonna last.

[Patrick]

I don't even think it's that. I don't think it's that black and white. Like, I think that, like, there's a reason why I try to return every single dm. There's a reason why. You know what I mean? Like, I feel so honored that anybody who doesn't know me wants to talk to me, that I feel like I can't write it back fast enough. And I felt sad for Tegan, who. She loved meeting the fans and she loved connecting with. Like, she needed it, too. But she was able to be the adult in the room and say, but it has to stop for the good of everybody.

[Sarah]

Right. Because the thing is, there is something. It's really lonely being a human being. It is.

[Patrick]

And nobody's more lonely than fucking Taylor Swift or. You know what I mean? Like, these people who can't leave their houses, who are locked behind, like, closed doors at all times.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

You know, but even when you, like.

[Sarah]

Say something about yourself and you put it out there, like an artist or, I don't know, a podcaster, and then someone like, you have this experience where you think, like, there's that. That thing on TikTok that people are saying where it's like, oh, I've never had an original experience. There's something really comforting about where I'm just like, oh, this was my thing as, you know, being an only child, or. I'm not saying it's like, my plight, but, like, when people are like, that was me.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I feel seen. Like, that's a beautiful moment to have with someone who. You're just talking stream of consciousness.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And suddenly someone's like, I stood up for myself at work today. And it's like, girl, fuck, yeah.

[Patrick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah]

Those DMS are the best. So having those DMS or having those exchanges is great, but, like, the minute the DM gets weird, the conversation's over.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Like. And that's unfortunately happened. And now I have to be like, oh, that sucked. Because we had this really great thing for a little bit.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And now you said that weird, really inappropriate thing, and now it has to be done.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Because I'm not going to, like, negotiate with you. I don't fucking know you.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So we had a nice thing. How nice? And now it's ruined.

[Patrick]

You have an ability to, like, you don't need it in the way other people need it. You know what I mean? And I wish I was more like that, you know, I really. But I mean that, like. I mean, like, that is a thing that is broken in me or something.

[Sarah]

You know, Broken, but in a way that's like.

[Patrick]

I'm not saying, like, I'm. It's not something I'm trying to fix. You know what I mean? I don't. I don't see it as a problem. Yeah, but it is. It's like what you were saying where, like, Tegan was saying, for the good of the organization, we gotta have boundaries and lines. And that makes sense, you know, but.

[Sarah]

It can still also be fun and meaningful for the Tegans of the world to be like, that's a really nice thing somebody said to me. I can't tell you how, how many times I've been like, mike, oh my God, look at what this person said. And then we have, like, a nice exchange.

[Patrick]

And like listeners, we are not comparing ourselves to a fame level of, like, Tegan and Sarah at all. It's just like, we happen to get DMs from people sometimes.

[Sarah]

Right. You know, so Tegan is saying, it's a common thing we all talk about is that there's these awful, toxic message boards where the people who seem to love and be obsessed with you the most are the most cruel and mean and shitty. They were breeding grounds for obsession. The people who are obsessed with you the most are the most cruel and mean and shitty because they're the ones.

[Patrick]

That are going to feel the most burned by you if you don't give them the attention.

[Sarah]

They're the entitlement and they feel like they know you and then you disappointed them and all that. So. But it's now it's about the Internet, because the message boards are a breeding ground for obsession and for hate. So it's like, it's never enough. Do this, but not like that. Say this, but not like that. Or give us more or stand outside longer. And the longer someone has been a fan, the more entitled they think. So now they're mad even if, like, Tegan and Sarah didn't do anything. Yeah, Just the idea that they know. Wait, they didn't stand outside at that concert. I didn't go to fuck them. I've been a fan forever. And it's like, whoa, yeah, yeah. What are you saying? Yeah, right?

[Patrick]

Because no, no one's looking deeper to say, like, oh, I'm really sad that I didn't get to see the people that I like that I admire so much today. That's the emotion that's really behind.

[Sarah]

Right? And it's like, it's so funny. The meanest people who talk the most shit, they always know so much about you.

[Patrick]

Uh huh. It's true.

[Sarah]

It's true.

[Patrick]

And like, how do they know?

[Sarah]

And how do they know? And like, why do they give a shit? Or it's like they think they do because someone types an assumption or a theory as fact and everyone just accepts it. It's like this confirmation bias of hate.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[Sarah]

You know?

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

So this is where things get really bad. Because now it's like so online and now everyone's really mad and they're super famous and now we're sort of becoming into more of like present day shitty Internet. So it's like Lindsay Teigen's now ex girlfriend. What it felt like to me was that they did not like me and they wanted to date my girlfriend. I didn't understand how these people, like, knew things about me, like personal stuff. Like, why are your fans, like, posting my dad's home address on the Zetta boards or whatever. They're like, doxing her. They're doxing her father. Like, what the fuck? So, like, people say these things that are just not true. Lindsay's like, I'm reading shit that I never said or things that didn't happen. Things I've never been in a room with this person, but suddenly there's full dialogue of shit I said. And she's like, it makes you crazy. But like, they create their own reality and then accept it as the only reality and then react based on that. Like, I knew Lindsay was a bitch.

[Patrick]

What?

[Sarah]

Lindsay's like, I wasn't even.

[Patrick]

She's just a nice photographer. Leave her alone. And I'm her ex.

[Sarah]

Like, what are you taught? Leave my father out of this. It's insane. Yeah, because Jenny the journalist is here to talk about how misinformation can spread so easily. And just, like, it's also the misinformation and the hate because the Internet, like, takes away humanity. So then, like, people, like, famous people are avatars. They're not really real. And then I get to hide behind a keyboard and whatever. But also, like, then when it crosses over into real life, like, people die. People have been murdered. Like Grimmie, Selena. Oh, sure. People throwing things at Harry Styles on stage, like, trying to grab, like, we see this montage of just, like, horrifying.

[Patrick]

Things happen to see Nicki Minaj. Was it her that threw the cell phone back at that person?

[Sarah]

Yeah. But, you know, it's like, these people, this, like, fervor that builds online, and then you're face to face with someone and you're trying to grab them. Tegan's like, I've been pinched, kissed, grabbed, carried. They've been followed home. And it's like, it doesn't just live on the Internet.

[Patrick]

You see them. You see fans rushing the stage trying to grab Sarah. It's terrifying.

[Sarah]

And, like, it happens. There are too many instances of it happening and people are dying and people are getting killed.

[Patrick]

Like, the Taylor Swift thing where, like, that guy was able to grab her leg. She's got.

[Sarah]

And they got dragged off by his neck.

[Patrick]

But my thing is, like, how was he able to get that?

[Sarah]

Like, she's got 29 happens in a second. I mean, that was also, like, a long time. Not like it matters, but, like, it wasn't the 1999, but still, it happens all the time. And it's like, this is a real person.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Yes.

[Sarah]

And then people get obsessed. But, like, if it starts on the Internet, that's the thing that I think that they want to hit home here. It's like people on the Internet are crazy and, like, it's a total echo chamber of hate, but, like, it can cross into the real world.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

And it happens all the time.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah]

People are dying.

[Patrick]

When there's a mass shooting, the first thing they do is go to the Internet to try to find the person's manifesto. That's always where it starts.

[Sarah]

So this can be very dangerous. And so that's when Tegan is saying, like, it's also happening. Like, where are the other Fegans in their fandom?

[Patrick]

Yeah. Or there's probably. I mean, the idea that this is one person. I don't think that's true.

[Sarah]

It can't be.

[Patrick]

Right? Absolutely not.

[Sarah]

It can't be. So anyway, Then we meet Jackie, and Jackie's gonna tell us about Tara in a second. But, like, Jackie's another fan who was catfish. And this is where I have, like, a major issue, because she's meeting with real Tegan now, which is funny because.

[Patrick]

She was catfished by Fegan, like, 10 years ago or whatever. But now she's meeting the real Tegan at Tegan's house. I know it's like, whoa, whoa.

[Sarah]

Like, how the trailer, real fast turntables. But like, Jackie was given a phone number that she thought was the real Tegan's phone number, and texts her, just saying, fantastic job. Not even. Great show. Yeah, not even, whatever. And the number replies, sorry, who's this? And Jackie's playing hardball. She goes, I might have the wrong number. Who's this? And like, Jackie, I'm sorry, I know you're here now. I know you're embarrassed about it now. But, like, what? No one is saying, yeah, Tegan, Jackie. No one is like, you don't know her and this is her phone number and you shouldn't be doing that. And so, like, when Fegan responds, even Jackie's like, oh, I didn't even think you'd answer.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Sarah]

But no one is saying, not a single person, not even Jenny, the journalist who makes a whole lot of sense about all of this is like, you shouldn't have been texting her phone number. Like, you know her.

[Patrick]

That's what I'll give you. I like, if any famous person signs up with their real name to any social media platform, you're going to get DMs, and you got them coming. Don't respond to them. You don't owe anybody a response, but it's going to happen. Like, a private phone number is a whole different thing.

[Sarah]

Like, awful, deranged, psychotic parts of the fandom are always going to exist. But, like, casual, inappropriate behavior is awful. Also not okay. And both things are true on different levels, 100%.

[Patrick]

But Jackie also tells us about this Tumblr page that was created in 2014.

[Sarah]

Said something like, 10am Tomorrow, I'm releasing a lot of information that you're going to want to know about Tegan. Damn. There's like a countdown. So everyone was like, what's going on? Who is this person? And then the next day at 10am they dropped all of these demos that were unreleased pictures of that seemed pretty personal. They said that you had a relationship with them for three years.

[Patrick]

Basically, like a dump of somebody's terrible experience of, like, years and years of communicating with Fegan. Thinking it was Tegan. And when they made this Tumblr page, it was to expose the real Tegan for being so awful because they didn't know that it was a Fegan.

[Sarah]

So this person is Tara. Tegan plus Sarah, who we met last time. Yeah. And only she's the only person we haven't met in person, only on the phone. So it's 2014 and this Tara person, Tegan plus Sarah party. Har har. Real original.

[Patrick]

Didn't occur to me, but ok, great.

[Sarah]

Ok, great. They're also posting like the demos, the unreleased songs, these personal photos on the tour bus, Teigen at home, all of this stuff plus all of the like horrible stuff that Teigen was supposedly doing.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Because Tara is claiming that fake Teigen is actually the real Teigen. And management is covering for her.

[Patrick]

Just like jt, nobody can convince Tara that the person who's been horrible to her isn't Tegan. It's this fake person. Tara does not believe it.

[Sarah]

But Tara is also a major piece of sh. Because Tara ran a board which was all about. I'm sorry everyone, trigger warning. This is fucking disgusting. Like incest fantasies about Tegan and Sarah.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Who are twins and both queer and Tara. You're fucking sick.

[Patrick]

Yeah, Tara is awful. But they start to suspect that Tara is actually vegan because Tara is now.

[Sarah]

Emailing fans and all of these people starting shit like emailing tj, emailing management, emailing Lindsey the ex girlfriend, emailing fans, like just really stirring the pot.

[Patrick]

And she's also like emailing management being like, I think I know who who Feagan is. Do you want my help? And then being like, nevermind, I'm not gonna. Teegan is so awful. I'm not gonna help you figure it out.

[Sarah]

Tara is a diabolical nightmare.

[Patrick]

Yes, yes.

[Sarah]

Like super aggressive, really weird, really rude.

[Patrick]

But then like at one point the documentary filmmaker becomes obsessed with getting an interview with Tara. And now Tara also happens to live in Maine. I remember there was Matt from Maine that was also suspected of being Fegan. And they're thinking that maybe Matt and Tara are the same person.

[Sarah]

It didn't go anywhere. And that was like 10 hours ago. Cause this thing is endless.

[Patrick]

Exactly. And so Tara agrees to this interview and they fly there to do and last minute she cancels. Which makes the documentary filmmaker think that like it's more evidence that she actually is Fegan.

[Sarah]

Tara also wants money.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

So like clearly they aren't coming. They got like, it's all a power move. This is. This is also out of the catfish playbook. If you watch one episode of Catfish, you know they always bail.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

So it's like, but they got everyone to come to Maine. All the money, all the resources. They're about to film. This Tara person bails and plays some, like, moral high ground card while also asking for money.

[Patrick]

Right. And then, like, ultimately, this ends with Tara agreeing to a phone call with Tegan and Aaron, the filmmaker.

[Sarah]

But they are giving this Tara person so much fucking air time.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Like, they're giving them so much power. Where is a lawyer? Like, it just all feels so contrived on the part of the documentary. Like, this person is a loser.

[Patrick]

Well, because I think they think they're going to get either her to admit that she's vegan, then they've solved it.

[Sarah]

What about this person has made you think they're going to be on forthright? Because we see endless screenshots of the conversation where it's like, I'm sorry, are you insinuating that I'm behind the catfish? This person is insufferable. And all you're doing is giving her exactly what she wants.

[Patrick]

And, like, we don't even need to get into the phone call because it goes on for 10 minutes. And at the end of it, Tegan is like, she's not vegan.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I hope you're hungry for nothing, because nothing fucking happens.

[Patrick]

Like, but, like, that was the kind of. The thing with this whole. Like, the way that, like, that whole phone call ended was like, this is.

[Sarah]

Somebody who had a relationship with fake Tegan, feels totally fucked over, got conned, and is pissed. So I do not think Tara is Fegan.

[Patrick]

She's just another person who was so deeply hurt by Feegan, she cannot believe that Fegan isn't actually me. Like, Tara will go to the grave thinking that Fegan doesn't exist and that the actual Tegan did all this horrible stuff to her.

[Sarah]

Right. Because they're saying, like, the filmmaker is like, yeah, well, I've been working on this case for a year, and you always seem to enter the picture in some way. Like, what's that about?

[Patrick]

I mean, there is suspicious stuff. Like, every other person who's been catfished by Fegan produces evidence of the catfish. And Tara isn't able to do it. She doesn't have any of the emails. She doesn't have any of the text messages that she says were going on for years and years.

[Sarah]

Because Tara's response to that is like, well, did it ever occur to you that I'm a victim and I'm trying to validate my own experience. And Erin's like, not really, girl, because everyone else has photos and you don't. You're just giving me attitude.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So, like, what? End, end, end. Can you please scream at her, Tegan, for the fucking disgusting website she made about you and your sister? No one's talking about that either.

[Patrick]

Yeah, but, like, at the end of the day, like, she doesn't seem to be vegan. She just seems to be a mentally unstable person who's doing shitty things online.

[Sarah]

And everyone's giving her exactly what she wants, which is attention from everybody.

[Patrick]

And, like, it finally ends. Like, the last thing that happens is there's, like, a reconciliation between JT and Teigen. Remember, Like, JT was the one from the beginning that was, like, the one. The only one who actually knew Teigen in real life.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Can I just say one thing? Because Erin, the filmmaker, is like, well, after all that, I guess we'll never know the truth. And I think the real story here is that people can be insane. And I guess the insanity is the friends we made along the way or whatever.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, the insanity is the friends we made along the way.

[Sarah]

Like, what? And I'm like, what? Because she ends with, like, a big, like, whelp. I guess we'll never know. And I'm like, welp.

[Patrick]

I mean, it was nice to see JT sit down and talk to Tegan. And they were kind of like, we don't. We're not mad at each other anymore.

[Sarah]

Because this is, like, this was good, I think, and helpful for JT to, like, work out their feelings and all of that stuff. But, like, I wish they'd clear up the email thing. Like, I just ended.

[Patrick]

They could have cleared it up a little bit more where, like, JT's like, are you mad at me? And she's like, no. She's like, are you mad at me? She's like, like, no, no.

[Sarah]

Okay, I'm sure. Great.

[Patrick]

Like, they hug at the end. But also, they're not making lunch plans, though it doesn't seem like they're gonna.

[Sarah]

Hang out, because also, the damage has been done.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

There's nothing. I'm sure you can have a lovely conversation over, like, green tea or whatever.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

But, like, JT was still ostracized from the community that she felt found peace in for the first time in her life. Like, that ship has sailed. Like, the damage is done.

[Patrick]

Yeah. We get to the end, and this is where Tegan says, like, we may never know who Fegan is. But, like, the thing about fan culture is that fans just want more and more and more.

[Sarah]

It's insatiable being. Because you won't ever really know me unless you kidnap me and get to know me. No, we're not gonna use that joke. Horrific.

[Patrick]

Erin, the filmmaker, is like, we're not gonna use that joke.

[Sarah]

And then they use it, which should be totally used.

[Patrick]

Like, what?

[Sarah]

Cause to go like, Tegan's like, this is gonna follow me around forever. True. It's an awful thing that happened to her and everyone around her. True. Major violation of all kinds. All true, true, true. It's a horrifying thing that happened.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Sarah]

And then she's like, or you can kidnap me and see what happens. And I'm like, no lessons.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah]

Here I look. Everyone laughs when they need to catch a break.

[Patrick]

It's fine, whatever.

[Sarah]

But, like, no one's ever going to know anything. And this vegan person and all 15 million other vegans in every other fandom, in every other community will live on forever.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Because we're fucking talking about them. The end.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God, fam. Well, on that note, please come and see me on tour. Look, we can get, like. It's not gonna get weird. I think we're all gonna be fine. I think we're gonna meet each other and become best friends. It's gonna be great.

[Sarah]

Of course.

[Patrick]

We're gonna have a real good time. And I keep saying, don't be afraid to come alone. Meet fellow TCO Fam. It's gonna be a really good time. It's gonna be a really funny show. I've got a Bea Arthur impersonator.

[Sarah]

Fantastic.

[Patrick]

The story is about my night with Bea Arthur when she hated me. Yeah. And we, like. I hired this be Arthur impersonator. She's on video playing the Bea Arthur part, being, like, drunk and ridiculous.

[Sarah]

It's really fun over it.

[Patrick]

Just go to Patrick Tours.com to get your tickets. What are we doing Next girl.

[Sarah]

The girl who looked like me. The murder of Tamika Houston. This is on hulu. It's a 2020 special. Very highly requested.

[Patrick]

Amazing.

[Sarah]

Really crazy story, so.

[Patrick]

Well, stay tuned for the trailer for that. This was a long episode.

[Sarah]

Long episode.

[Patrick]

We love you, fam.

[Sarah]

Did they get new passports? I don't know.

[Patrick]

We know we'll never know. That's the real mystery.

[Sarah]

The passports. Friends we made along the way.

[Patrick]

Bye. Bye.

[Sarah]

She had this captivating smile and beautiful eyes, and I prayed that they would find her alive. There was no way she would just up and leave.

[Patrick]

When I got the phone call, I just lost. Where was Tameka? What happened to her?

[Sarah]

In this country we have 40% of missing persons cases are persons of color. Why is it when you turn on your television, you only see white faces? It was just a horrific scene we started just building flowcharts and family and friends.

[Patrick]

Her car was found abandoned.

[Sarah]

You find keys in this car that don't seem to belong to her? That was just the beginning.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah]

Well, her blood is all over your floor.

[Patrick]

How do you know her blood is. It could be anybody's blood. No, it can't be anybody's blood. How long do you think we've been doing this?

[Sarah]

A local woman who says she sometimes has visions. I could see blood. Gumball, body in the left side of the closet. There's no way she could have known that.

[Patrick]

I kid. Goosebumps.

[Sarah]

Friday night. You gave a lot of your light to the store.

[Patrick]

That's what it needed. What really happened to Tamika Houston?

[Sarah]

You said this case touched you like no other had.

[Patrick]

Why? Because I know how much black girls don't matter.