410: Keith Morrison Presents: Who is Donnie Rudd?

Summary

True Crime Obsessed - Episode 410: Keith Morrison Presents: Who is Donnie Rudd?

Release Date: January 14, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 410 of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Jillian Benzavalli and Patrick Hines delve into the enigmatic and dark history of Donnie Rudd, a figure whose life is marred by manipulation, abuse, and multiple murders. Presented alongside insights from investigative journalist Keith Morrison, this episode uncovers the layers of Donnie's deceitful actions and the profound impact on his family and victims.

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Background on Donnie Rudd

Donnie Rudd, a once-prominent patent attorney from Chicago, is depicted as a highly intelligent but deeply flawed individual. Born in 1942 in a small Texas town, Donnie's early life was characterized by academic competitiveness with his twin brother, Ronnie. Their parents, both educators, played significant roles in shaping their competitive nature, but as they grew older, the brothers drifted apart, leading to a strained relationship.

Notable Quote:

“They were very competitive. I think that was a plus, not a minus, because we played off of each other in the competition. We both had our IQ tested a number of times.” —Noreen Rudd [03:59]

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Timeline of Events

1973: The Tragic Car Accident

The episode begins on September 14, 1973, detailing a night when Donnie and his wife, Noreen, were involved in a seemingly accidental car crash. Donnie was driving a 1972 Ford Pinto, a model later recalled for safety issues, including doors that jammed shut during accidents.

Key Points:

• Accident Details: Donnie claims he swerved to avoid an oncoming car, causing Noreen to be thrown from the vehicle. “And he says that he runs over to her where she... had banged a rock.” —Loretta Bakke [04:07]

• Suspicious Circumstances: The Ford Pinto's known defects raise questions about the legitimacy of Donnie's account. Moreover, police later became skeptical of his story, suggesting potential foul play.

Notable Quote:

“Donnie didn’t even know the bullshit lie he was telling. But we know now.” —Patrick Hines [05:37]

Formation of the School Board and Family Dynamics

Post-accident, Donnie's involvement in the school board led to a close-knit friendship between his family and Diane Bakke's family. This bond, however, sowed the seeds for future conflicts as both Donnie and Diane left their respective families to marry each other, creating a toxic environment for their children.

Key Points:

• Marriage Dynamics: Donnie and Diane swap families, leading to a confusing and abusive living arrangement for the children.

• Abusive Behavior: Donnie exhibits childish yet abusive behaviors, such as gluing windows shut and smashing TVs with a sledgehammer, escalating the tension within the household.

Notable Quote:

“They’re very intertwined. Imagine you’re a couple, and you have four kids, and your best friend is another couple with four kids... and then suddenly there’s a literal wife swap.” —Patrick Hines [19:04]

1991: Murder of Loretta Bakke

The narrative takes a dark turn in April 1991 with the brutal murder of Loretta Bakke, Diane's daughter. Found shot multiple times, Loretta was Donnie's client in a legal dispute, raising immediate suspicions about his involvement.

Key Points:

• Murder Scene: Loretta was discovered with four gunshot wounds to the head. Witnesses reported seeing Donnie's car at the scene, marked with his distinctive "Mr. Condo" vanity plates.

• Donnie's Defense: As a lawyer, Donnie adeptly manipulates the situation, presenting himself as a victim of an assassination attempt. However, inconsistencies in his story and lack of evidence point towards his culpability.

Notable Quote:

“It was a total insurance scam. Diane knew about it, and she was completely in on it.” —Jillian Benzavalli [21:02]

Investigation and Exhumation

Years later, in 2012, renewed interest in Loretta's case leads to the exhumation of Noreen Rudd's body. The autopsy reveals blunt force trauma, contradicting the initial cause of death as an accident. This pivotal discovery shifts the investigation towards homicide, implicating Donnie directly.

Key Points:

• Changed Autopsy Results: The re-examination of Noreen's death classified it as homicide, providing substantial evidence against Donnie.

• Financial Motive: Donnie received a significant life insurance payout following Noreen's death, further suggesting a financial motive for murder.

Notable Quote:

“Now, the cops are tailing Donnie. They're trying to figure out how to get him.” —Patrick Hines [42:10]

Conviction and Death

Despite his attempts to evade justice, including fleeing to Texas and manipulating legal systems, Donnie is eventually arrested for Loretta's murder. In 2013, at the age of 73, Donnie is convicted and sentenced to 75 to 150 years in prison. Four years later, he dies in custody, bringing an end to his reign of terror.

Key Points:

• Final Arrest: Subpoenas and mounting evidence lead to his arrest. However, Donnie's tactics delay his conviction.

• Legacy of Abuse: The episode highlights the lasting trauma inflicted on his children and victims, emphasizing the destructive nature of Donnie's actions.

Notable Quote:

“Donnie’s a lawyer, okay? So the cops are at his house within an hour of finding Loretta’s body.” —Patrick Hines [43:30]

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Discussion on Donnie's Personality and Actions

Throughout the episode, Donnie Rudd is portrayed as a master manipulator who uses his intelligence and legal expertise to deceive those around him. His pattern of creating false narratives, abusing those in his life, and evading accountability paints a picture of a deeply troubled and dangerous individual.

Notable Quotes:

“You want to tell people what your IQ is to be an insufferable asshole at the cocktail party.” —Patrick Hines [14:56]

“He’s been doing the same shit he always said, being like, I don’t actually have the $800,000, but how’s like, 10 grand? Like, from his own money.” —Jillian Benzavalli [44:31]

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Family Impact and Reactions

Donnie's actions have a profound and devastating impact on his family. His abusive behavior and manipulative tactics create an environment of fear and mistrust. The children, caught in the crossfire, struggle to reconcile their perceptions of their parents with the harsh realities of Donnie's deceit.

Key Points:

• Children's Stand: The daughters, particularly Lori and Cindy, become vocal opponents of Donnie, seeking justice for Loretta and questioning their mother's complicity.

• Emotional Toll: Diane's diagnosis and subsequent actions reflect the emotional and psychological strain imposed by Donnie's abusive behavior.

Notable Quote:

“It makes me so sad for the kids because she's taking the sleeping pills and then, like, hanging out with her daughter, hoping that her daughter's gonna notice that something is wrong.” —Patrick Hines [38:32]

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Conclusion and Updates

The episode concludes with the conviction of Donnie Rudd, providing closure to the harrowing tale of manipulation and murder. The hosts celebrate justice served, emphasizing the resilience of the victims' families and the importance of perseverance in true crime investigations.

Notable Quote:

“Honestly, the world is a better place without him because every. He left disaster and death and horrifying shit in his wake. So good.” —Patrick Hines [64:16]

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Final Thoughts

True Crime Obsessed Episode 410 offers a comprehensive and gripping exploration of Donnie Rudd's life of deceit and violence. Through detailed storytelling and the inclusion of investigative insights from Keith Morrison, the hosts shed light on how intelligence can be twisted into a tool for manipulation and harm. This episode serves as a sobering reminder of the depths of human depravity and the enduring quest for justice.

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Disclaimer: The events and characters described in this summary are based on the provided transcript for the podcast episode and are intended for informational purposes only.

Transcript

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I literally had deja vu today that we had already recorded this because I've watched it so many times, because we were supposed to record it, like, a.

[Patrick Hines]

Long time ago, and then, like, 10 documentaries came out that everyone wanted us to do, so it got bumped.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But in my brain, I could hear the conversation we'd had about it. And no, we did. We didn't do it.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I just like, search the Dropbox. I'm like, I think we did this.

[Patrick Hines]

Buckle up, buttercup. We're doing it now.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Hi. Jillian Benzavalli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi. Patrick Hines.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's been a while since you called me buttercup. I'm gonna take a while.

[Patrick Hines]

Have I ever.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Maybe once. Maybe once or twice.

[Patrick Hines]

A lamp. Sorry, sorry. Lamp. She's apologizing to inanimate objects. Everybody, this is where we are.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is what we're leaving behind in 2024. We are leaving that shit behind.

[Patrick Hines]

Let me tell you. Buy exclamation points in emails.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, really? How do we get rid of it? You gotta teach me.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. I'm gonna try to do it and then be anxious about it for the.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Rest of the day, fam. Before we get into this thing, we gotta talk about the book club. So we are doing a book club. A couple hundred of you have already signed up for it. So here's the thing. There is a pinned post in the Facebook group. That is a Google form. All you got to do is fill it out. That is how you join. You get to select whether you want reminders via text message or you want via email. Sasha is putting together a monthly newsletter.

[Patrick Hines]

Fantastic.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sasha is taking this and running with it. It is going to be so amazing. You're going to be up to date. You're going to know well ahead of time what the book is, when the meeting is. If you can't make it to the meeting, you can talk about it in the group. Sasha's really going for it with the.

[Patrick Hines]

Book club because reading is what fundamental.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So if you want to join the. Which I strongly recommend, just go to the pinned post in the Facebook group. It's the true crime obsessed podcast discussion group. Fill out the Google form and that's it. And you're in.

[Patrick Hines]

We love it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We love it. It's so fun.

[Patrick Hines]

We're in our reading era, ladies.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know. I've been. I've been doing a lot of audiobooks. I'm currently listening to the book about Israel Keys. It's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Wild. Okay, what are we talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, hello, old friend. Who is Donnie Rudd. No, fuck him. Keith Morrison investigates. That's the old friend I'm referring to. It's been a while since we've seen ya. If anyone's gonna get to the bottom of who this guy is, it is Keith Morrison.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Keith Morrison. Oh, there's something that happens in this. That happened on this day in that year.

[Patrick Hines]

Really?

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I was like, wait, did they say December 17th?

[Patrick Hines]

It's so weird when that happens.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So weird when that happens or when.

[Patrick Hines]

It happened, like, two years ago, and, like, you can really remember what you were doing on that day.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. Totally. That's so crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's a reminder of, like, oh, my God. Yeah, everything is really small and awful because I was, like, having a normal day, and this person was going through the worst thing in their life.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

What was it? I'm sorry. What's it a reminder of?

[Patrick Hines]

That everything's the worst. Sometimes. Sometimes. But sometimes things are good, sometimes things are great. But when it hits you, it's like I was at a birthday party that night.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Through the worst day of their life. What an asshole I was on that day.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I didn't even know it.

[Patrick Hines]

Just living my life like an idiot.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I am your host, Donnie Rudd, by all accounts, a noteworthy medical researcher.

[Ronnie Rudd]

His IQ would probably be on genius level. He knew all these famous people, he was working on all these big deals. You just get sucked into his world.

[Noreen Rudd]

But Donnie had some secrets.

[Ronnie Rudd]

It did kind of sink in that.

[Patrick Hines]

There'S something just doesn't seem right about this whole situation.

[Loretta Bakke]

You said somebody was trying to kill him.

[Ronnie Rudd]

The cops were following him.

[Noreen Rudd]

What did you think when you heard that he was a suspect in a murder investigation?

[Ronnie Rudd]

Didn't surprise me.

[Noreen Rudd]

Was he a murderer or just a maverick?

[Ronnie Rudd]

It was a weird coincidence. And mom always said, when it comes to Donnie, there's no coincidence.

[Noreen Rudd]

All of it leaves some people who've crossed his path still questioning. Who is Donnie Rudd?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't feel I'm talking to a murderer.

[Noreen Rudd]

I don't know how he does it, but, boy, he's good at it, you know?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If I'm being bamboozled, it's by an expert. All right, we are starting on September 14, 1973. It's close to midnight in the suburbs of Chicago.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? Cops respond to an accident on the road. It's late at night. This is. It's a 1972 Ford Pinto. That's important. And I found out why in a minute. There's, like, something about the Pinto that makes what's about to happen actually Impossible.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. Really?

[Patrick Hines]

1972 Ford Pinto skidded off the road. It's a young couple, newlyweds. Donnie Rudd and his wife Noreen.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. When the cops get there, Donnie is cradling Noreen in his arms in the car. Donnie tells the cops what happened. There was a car coming at them, like, in their lane, going the wrong way. Going the wrong way. He swerved to avoid the car.

[Loretta Bakke]

When he swerved out of the way, the passenger side where his wife was sitting, the door flew open. She fell out, and he stopped. And when he got out, she had appeared, had struck her head on this rock. And he kind of pointed to a rock that was heavily matted with blood.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He says that he runs over to her where she. Her head had, like, banged a rock.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like, look, the rock's right here. Cops.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right? And then. But somehow he, like, dragged her back into the car to cradle her in his arms. And Noreen is unconscious and rushed to the hospital, but he's miraculously fine.

[Patrick Hines]

Now. This is a 1972 Ford Pinto.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

As per the Internet, in 1978, following a damning investigation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Ford recalled all 1.5 million of its 1971 to 1976 Ford Pintos, as well as 30,000 Mercury Bobcats, which is a great name for a car.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Mercury Bobcat. That's my drag name.

[Patrick Hines]

So the Pinto's fuel tank was vulnerable to rupture and rear end collisions, which is awful. It had, like, bad protection. But the Pinto's doors also tended to jam shut after impact, making it difficult for occupants to escape. You're telling me in a 1972 Pinto, now I'm fucking Marisa Tomei. I'm Mona Lisa. Vito.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You're telling me.

[Patrick Hines]

You're telling me they were. But, like, like, really? Noreen's door flew open when the Pinto was recalled because the doors would jam shut in an accident. Like, this guy didn't even know the bullshit lie he was telling. But we know now.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like this. In 1973, it was in the middle of all of these accidents with the Pintos that it will eventually get recalled a few years later.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Isn't that fucking crazy?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I do love you in your Columbo era. I feel like you are coming. You are coming with receipts to these episodes lately.

[Patrick Hines]

Y it. I did watch My Cousin vinny for the 10 millionth time the other night. Maybe I was inspired.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

One thing to note here, too, is that we will find out. I don't know, like, 30 years later, when they actually investigate this. This whole situation, that the cops never believed his story. But we don't know that until 2017.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

So Noreen is rushed to the hospital. It is not looking good. Her injuries are really bad. She's unresponsive. When we said newlyweds, they were actual newlyweds. This happened not even four weeks after their wedding.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Noreen Rudd]

The couple's relationship had begun as an office romance.

[Loretta Bakke]

Noreen Cometa was a young co worker of Donnie Rudd. They worked together at Quaker Oats.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He was a patent attorney there.

[Loretta Bakke]

Noreen was 19 when they met. And at the time, Donnie was in his early 30s.

[Patrick Hines]

They don't tell us Noreen's job. We just know that she was 19 years old. He was in his 30s. She was 19.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He was divorced. Had a girlfriend. I mean, and then married Maureen.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Did he ever, like, we are gonna learn about this guy, Donnie's relationship.

[Patrick Hines]

I hate this guy. You know who else hates him? His twin brother Ron. Parents. Why do you do this? Donnie and Ronnie, like, enough.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know. But I also gotta say that Ronnie wants to make it very clear. He's here for the interview.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, he.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

To talk shit about his brother.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

To talk shit about his brother. It's the equivalent of like, was she a greedy slut? Like, if you know what I mean.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Murder. No. Greedy slut. You betcha.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Somebody said that to me again the other day. Like, I.

[Patrick Hines]

It's Jen. Simone. She said it's both of us.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Jen Samart.

[Patrick Hines]

It's her favorite thing. And she's like sitting. Because she's on Broadway. So all she's doing when she's not on Broadway is resting, God bless her. Because she's in. Death becomes her. And she's amazing in it. And so it's mega healthy. Whatever. It's an amaz. But when all she's doing is watching Dateline. So I'm constantly. I love it so much. I'm constantly getting videos of her watching episodes that we covered that she hadn't seen that just like come up randomly.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And she was like, I finally saw it in the Wild.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like the Greedy Slime episode.

[Patrick Hines]

And we will. I'm going to give you a spoiler when we come back to our. When we start dropping our bonus episodes this year. The very first one is a Jen Simard pick.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It is.

[Patrick Hines]

It is fucking insane. It is insane, Jen. Thank you. It is crazy. It is crazy. It is crazy. We'll get into it. It is Ray Z. I'm.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm. Well, all of that to say that Ronnie is here to basically be like, I didn't really know him that well. We weren't really that close.

[Patrick Hines]

But I hated him. I didn't know. But I knew him enough to hate him, and I was smarter than him. We'll get to that in a minute. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Armor colostrum is back. First of all, I heard Jim bros talking about this at the gym the other day.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I really. I was like, wait a minute.

[Patrick Hines]

You're talking about something good for once.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know. But, you know, I'm always looking for ways to boost my immunity and gut health, especially. Especially as we go into the winter. It's super important to me, and that's why I've been taking armor colostrum the whole time here. Can I tell you a little bit about what it is? Just to demystify?

[Patrick Hines]

I would love it. Cause I'm all about this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's so easy to take. It's a concentrate. You take four scoops of it. You can put it in whatever liquid you want, make it in a smoothie, put it in water, put it in.

[Patrick Hines]

Your morning coffee, and then you're done.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Literally. Literally. I love it. I know. Right away. First thing in the morning, I'm doing something great for myself. I gotta say, healthy girl. I cannot get sick this year.

[Patrick Hines]

No, we're not doing that anymore. It's 2025. We're not. So it's good for your immunity. Right. It's fortifying your gut health. It's igniting your metabolism. These are all great things. Armor colostrum has also been shown to reactivate hair follicle stem cells.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And I'm telling you, these gym bros, they weren't just talking about the metabolism of the gut health. They were talking about their skin. This gym bro was taking for your skin because it's all about the skin radiance.

[Patrick Hines]

And we can use skin radiance all year round. But especially if we're talking about the winter. It's drier your skin, like, everyone's skin gets a little dull in the winter.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And the point is, this isn't just for the gym bros, is what I'm saying. Like, I'm not a gym bro. I take it, because it serves all of us.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Armor colostrum literally has thousands of benefits, girl. There's no reason not to take it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I can't think of one.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. So, fam, we've worked out a special offer for our audience. Receive 15% off your first order.

[Patrick Hines]

Go to tryarmora.com TCO or enter TCO to get 15% off your first order.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's T-R-Y-A R M R-A.com TCO.

[Patrick Hines]

I like the way that little rhythm.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Is very sing songy staccato.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Everyone is shocked that he's dating Noreen and even more surprised that after two weeks of dating, they get married. Like, he meets her, two weeks later, they're married.

[Sasha]

Yes. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So Noreen is rushed to the hospital, and unfortunately, she was pronounced dead when she got there. They were married for 29 days. She's 19 years old. It's tragic.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She is the one. Like, of all the people in the story, she's, like, the most forgotten. Like, because her story is so quick.

[Patrick Hines]

And also on purpose. That's by design.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Donnie doesn't want anyone to talk about Noreen.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm fucking talking about her. And so is Keith Morrison.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Can I just say one when we get there? I think Diane's got some blood on her hands for this one. I know you guys haven't met Diane yet, so don't worry. We'll get there when we get.

[Patrick Hines]

There's a lot here.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So this is not the last tragedy Donnie would see. Tragedy follows this guy. And Keith says. Keith.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Keith says, you gotta stop being surprised when Keith disappoints you a little bit.

[Patrick Hines]

This really shocks me.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Noreen Rudd]

Because he said Donnie buried his young bride in her wedding dress. Her obituary and her headstone were two of the only times she used her new married name, Noreen Rudd.

[Patrick Hines]

Two of the few times she used her married name. I know, and I know why he's saying that. To say that they were just married and she was so young, 19 years old. Like, it is so tragic. But I was like, oh, my God. It's so ghoulish to think about, like, she used her married name on, like, these really sad things.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. For this piece of shit guy that we're gonna call.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks for the reminder, Keith.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

God, we're just getting started.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So we get the Donnie ride backstory. He was born in a small Texas. Born in a small Texas town in 1942. Brother Donnie tells God, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Donnie's older than Ronnie by four and a half minutes. Do all twins give a shit about who's older by how many minutes?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Do you think Tegan isracare?

[Patrick Hines]

Probably. Probably not, actually. They're like, they were born at the exact same time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That poor mother. But they were small.

[Patrick Hines]

They were small.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, they were born at the exact same. It was a photo finish.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, they're like queer twins who. Super, insanely, musically talented. They were definitely the twins who were medical miracles. They were born at the same time. And that's the thing no one talks about. Like, no one knows that. It's like, they don't have act. They also had this older brother, Jillian.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Was out doing karaoke real late last night. We were getting. Which is my. Sometimes, like, I went to three parties yesterday. Really?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, three. We just kept going. Mike said to me, he was like, do you have a full day tomorrow? And I went, yep. He goes, want to go downtown, do karaoke? Yep.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yep. There's only one answer to that question.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, yeah, yeah, of course. My old haunts. Of course.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of course. Gosh, now you're nailing it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I don't even know where we are. Oh, we learned both of Donnie and Ronnie's parents were teachers. The dad coached all of the school sports.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, school was a big part of their lives because the parents were teachers. Mom taught third and fourth grade. Dad taught fifth through eighth. They coached the sport. So, like, school was the whole thing.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Can I ask you a question? How does one person know all the rules to all the sports you're going to coach? Tennis, soccer, football, basketball. How do you know all those rules?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't think. Are 8th graders playing football. Yeah, we had.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We had. We had a football team in my. In my middle school. I wasn't on it. I was in the drama club. Right, right. Where do you belong? I was doing Bye Bye Birdie with Gianni Facade and Christian Polito obviously crushes on both of them.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course. Who was Conrad? Which one?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Conrad was Zen and Putney, and he actually really did a great job.

[Patrick Hines]

Conrad's a pretty minor role, all things considered.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

All things considered. But also, at one point, that character comes out in drag. At one point. And that means that this, like, eighth grader had to go get in drag and, like, come out, like, in a drag. That's kind of a.

[Patrick Hines]

That's theater, baby. Showbiz, kid.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But, like, nint. Whatever year. That was like the early 90s, you know what I mean? Kind of a big deal. I was proud of him for doing it, you know? Okay. You're not giving him any room.

[Patrick Hines]

No. It's like, that's the gig. You want the gig or not?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's true. And he did want the gig.

[Patrick Hines]

So the twins are very competitive.

[Noreen Rudd]

Oh, Donnie and I were very competitive academically, and I think that was a Plus, not a minus, because we played off of each other in the competition. We both had our IQ tested a number of times. I was in the high 150s. He was in the high 140s.

[Patrick Hines]

They had their IQ tested quite often.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Ronnie was in the high 150s. Donnie, the subject of the documentary in the high 140s competition is still alive and well. I see. I looked it up. They both fall in the highly gifted category, for whatever that's worth. It's pretty meaningful.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Apparently, a good score is 85 to 115. Well, can I tell you, I looked up an IQ test I tried to take. I couldn't get past the first question. I was like, what do you ask? I couldn't understand the question.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I think those are such bullshit. Yeah, right. Like, you take it, and for what? You add everyone. The answer is, you want to tell people what your IQ is to be an insufferable asshole at the cocktail party. That's why you take it. Who takes it and keeps that?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because you're not. It doesn't. It's not getting you in anywhere.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It doesn't matter. And let me tell you, you could have the highest IQ in the world and still be a fucking idiot.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But that's what usually happens, I feel like.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean. Yes. Because there's, like, no common sense. Like, oh, you can solve a question. Who cares? What have you done for me lately? Nothing.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But the twins were super close until they graduated high school. Because now there are girls involved.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. They go their separate ways. They hate each other anyway. Who cares? Right? Like, they're happy to be rid of each other.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I bet Ronnie is, like, an only child at college. You know what I mean? He. Whatever.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It may be a little sad because it's kind of like. I mean, I'm so close with most of my siblings.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to just stop speaking to your siblings when you get married.

[Patrick Hines]

I'd stop speaking to this guy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's true.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not speaking to him, and I'm not even related to him.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know that. And you're. And you. You make all the good calls when it comes to.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, I'm just. We're. I'm not talking to him right now, so. Whatever. Donnie and his family settle in Chicago in a picturesque suburb called Hoffman Estates.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But we got to talk about his wife, Luann.

[Patrick Hines]

But here's what happened, though. He has four kids, so he's married, right? To not I was just gonna say not the countess. Who's not a countess anymore, but she still goes by.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I heard two male voices downstairs. One of them was Luann's. It's like my favorite thing. I texted to Natalie every day.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the best. How could you do this to me, question mark? Please don't let it be about Tom. It's about Tom. That's like the most unbelievable. That whole scene of Bethany and then Bethany making it about herself having a panic attack. About how she had to tell Luan that her skeezy boyfriend, who everyone. She's. He's kissing people all over town.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Uhhuh.

[Patrick Hines]

And Bethany makes it about her having a panic attack. Please don't let it be about Tom. It's about Tom. Always about Tom.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

How could you do this to me, question mark?

[Patrick Hines]

So here's the thing. Donnie's married to Luann. Four kids. Theresa is the second youngest. She's here with us today. Donnie's on the school board, which is where he meets Diane, who's also married, to which I say, uh, oh.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Uh, oh.

[Noreen Rudd]

She and her husband John also had four kids. Their homes were only a couple of miles apart, so it made sense. The families became friends.

[Ronnie Rudd]

My mom was the president of the District 54 School Board at that time, and Donnie was elected as a school board member. And through that, we became friends. It started with my mom and Donnie, and then it eventually went where it was the whole family.

[Patrick Hines]

The families became friends. They were very, very tight. They're going on vacation together. Lori Hart is Diane's daughter. Another fucking great name.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She's like Jem the rock star.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I gotta say, most of the kids in this episode have pretty good names.

[Patrick Hines]

Cindy Hart, the Hart is a great last name to have.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Million percent.

[Patrick Hines]

And all of the daughters are here and they're great.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

The families are, like, hanging out multiple times a week. Everyone's babysitting each other. They're going on vacations together. They're, like, very intertwined.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now. Just remember the couples, Donnie and Luann and John and Diane.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, Donnie and Diane, who are not married right now, Donnie and the wife of the other family, Diane.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

They were, like this super powerful duo. They were, like, working together, making waves with the school board.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

They were also traveling out of town.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Eventually, Diane leaves her family to be with Donnie.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Just to be really clear, there's two families, and the husband from one and the wife from the other left their families to be together.

[Patrick Hines]

I know someone who did this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Really?

[Patrick Hines]

He left his wife for her Maid of honor. The kids called her aunt redacted, and now he's married to her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Whoa. How long have they been married?

[Patrick Hines]

A long time. He's also a complete piece of shit. Also, the wife he left. Complete piece of shit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're horrible, horrible people.

[Patrick Hines]

But to do that to the kids, I think is so.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's horrible.

[Patrick Hines]

They called her Aunt Blank, and now she's, like, married to their father. She was the maid of honor at the wedding. I mean, couldn't have been closer. So I was shocked by this, but I was like, that shit happens.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because the thing is, the shocks don't end here. So Donnie leaves Luann. Diane leaves John.

[Noreen Rudd]

By the time the divorce. Divorce papers were signed, it was not Donnie and Diane, but John and Luann who announced they were getting married. Donnie and John simply swapped homes and partners. The kids called it the switcheroo.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They get together.

[Patrick Hines]

The kids call it the old switcheroo, right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. When I was having my deja vu today, I was hearing you talk about the switcheroo. That's what I was like, we've already recorded this switcheroo.

[Patrick Hines]

The old switcheroo now, but especially now. Diane left her Southern Baptist religion. She had to choose between God and Donnie, and she chose him. Who is this guy? Like, this is a documentary that is very appropriately named. Who is he? I feel like the dude in Lebowski. What the fuck is with this guy?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know. The thing is, whenever we do documentaries about these men that get all these women, that they're always.

[Patrick Hines]

Black widower guy, derpiest herbs.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly. Right? Like, they're not particularly attractive or whatever, but for whatever reason, like, this guy Donnie's going to get away with everything. He's like, nothing.

[Patrick Hines]

Five or six wives.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So, but the thing is, that's, like, super unhealthy and weird and toxic is that the kids going back and forth between the houses and the families. Because remember, every family had four kids, and they were all kind of the same age. So now they were intertwined already, and now they're like.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Imagine you're a couple, and you.

[Patrick Hines]

You.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You're a couple, and you have four kids, and your best friend is another couple with four kids. And, like, that's great. Then all of a sudden, there's, like, a literal wife swap, as they call it. And now the kids are going back and forth between the houses, and it's like, we never really get a sense of if the kids like each other or not. You know, like the two sets of siblings. Like, do they get Along. We don't really know, but it's a.

[Patrick Hines]

Very, very, very shitty thing to do to the eight children. None of this.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, so Donnie is about to marry Diane. He ripped everyone's lives apart, turned their worlds upside down. And then out of the clear blue sky, he marries Noreen, who just died tragically in this car accident. She's 19 years old, married for three weeks.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's exactly right. So he's with Diane. Left his family to be with Diane. Diane left her family to be with him. They're, like, together.

[Patrick Hines]

Lives ruined. Exploded. Turned upside down.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so, rather than marrying her, he meets Noreen at work. They get married for three weeks, and Noreen dies mysteriously.

[Patrick Hines]

And then Donnie wants to come. Come home, and Diane forgives him. One of the daughters say he pulled out of the driveway and went and married Noreen. It was like that. Like, instant.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Three weeks later, Noreen is dead, and he's back with Diane. Like nothing ever happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Better, ladies.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But I got like, this was a calculated plan, and Diane was in on it. I just will not hear. I will not hear anything different.

[Patrick Hines]

Wait, why? You think she.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was a total insurance scam. Diane knew about it, and she was completely in on it. Yeah, that's what I think. And we'll get more evidence of that as we get to the end. Diane definitely knew.

[Patrick Hines]

She knew. She knew a lot.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Quip is back. First of all, you're gonna make the sound. Thank you. So, girl, I've been using the new Quip360 oscillating toothbrush for, like, a month now. I'm obsessed. Daisy has one, by the way. We actually have to pull it out of her mouth.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it revolves around you. Hence the name.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know, I love a thing that revolves around me. Girl.

[Patrick Hines]

I know I have to brush my teeth. I do it at least twice a day. Do I enjoy it? I used to not. It was really annoying. I would like much earlier in the night because if I fall asleep on the couch, you know, I don't want to do it later.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

But the Quick360 has kind of changed the game here.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And let me tell you, my favorite thing about going to the dentist is when they really clean in between the teeth and it gets all cleaned in there. This is what the 360Oscillating toothbrush does. It is proven to remove up to 11 times more plaque between teeth compared to a manual toothbrush and provide up to two times more whitening on day one, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

And now that Sounds like. It must sound like there's landscapers in your bathroom, right? No, it's. It has a super simple design. It's really cute. It comes in multiple colors. It's really quiet. So you're getting, like, a really great clean. You're not waking anyone up, and you're not annoying your own self.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And let me tell you this, girl. When you [e-mail], you're getting a free lifetime warranty.

[Patrick Hines]

Get out of here.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm telling you, I'm gonna stay right here, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Really?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And now with Quip Perks, Quip puts their money where your mouth is. How cute.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well done, Quip.

[Patrick Hines]

So when you subscribe to Auto Ship, you'll be enrolled in Quip Perks to earn credit back over time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We're obsessed fam. Just for listeners of True Crime, Obsessed, you can get 20% off site wide and a free travel case and countertop [e-mail] TCO.

[Patrick Hines]

Free your mouth today and save 20% sitewide, plus a free travel case and countertop [e-mail] TCO.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're giving it all away. It's getquipquipforpatrick.com TCR revolves around me. I mean, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Solve. So Donnie and Diane get married. And this is tragic, but we're told that as a way to cope, the family kind of acts like Noreen never existed, right? Like, it was the month they called the month of Noreen. And then they never speak of her again. Like she was a blip on a screen, not an actual human being who died in a tragic car accident.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, at the prime of her youth, she was 19 years old, and.

[Patrick Hines]

He'S in his 30s.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, everyone is just kind of acting that way, but the two oldest of Diane's kids, Lori and Cindy, they're like, we knew something was not right.

[Patrick Hines]

And they. They're like, why isn't anyone talking about Noreen? Because it's still a tragedy. Like, it's weird. It doesn't sit right with them. They want to know the truth about it. And one night, Lori, she's 16, she asks Donnie about Noreen. And Donnie's like, are you ready for this shit?

[Noreen Rudd]

To her surprise, she said Donnie told her it had been no accident. It had been an assassination attempt, not targeting Noreen. But Donnie, he said that somebody had.

[Ronnie Rudd]

Run him off the road and stopped and got out of the car and looked and then got in the car and drove away. I said, who would do that?

[Patrick Hines]

It wasn't an accident. It was an assassination attempt on my life.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I'm like, I know. Can we stop starving these lines?

[Patrick Hines]

No, I didn't even write that down. No, but you know how he told it in some. Like, he had to make Noreen's death about himself and erase her even more. And he's so important that there's an assassination attempt on his life.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And then he has, like, this elaborate backstory. He's working with some US Attorney who's investigating high profile politicians and businessmen.

[Patrick Hines]

My enemies, remember?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, my enemies. My enemies. It's like, enough, right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He just makes up this backstory and, like. But we learned, too, that, like, that's just the beginning of his lies. He's now telling people that he was in Vietnam, he was in the CIA, he was jumping out of helicopters.

[Patrick Hines]

Can I tell you something? Someone in my extended family is in the CIA.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't really talk about it because I don't know shit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know anything. We barely see him, which sucks because him and his family are fucking awesome.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But I know that, like, years and years ago, they lived. Not in this country and all. I'm not going to say where it was, but all I know is that, like, what they were allowed to tell us about, like, the compound that he lived with all the other CIA agents, their families, and what it was like to, like, have to raise a kid in this very, like, yeah, sort of sheltered community because that's where it was safe. But, like, all the families, like, had to hang out and get along because they, like, couldn't leave where they were.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, it's like, I'm sorry, sweet Bobby, but, like, when your boyfriend is telling you that he's in the witness protection, he's not in witness protection, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, that's all I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, he also knew all these famous people and he's, like, super interesting. And, like, everyone else's dad had, like, a boring job, but not him. He just has stories for days and tragedy follows him everywhere.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he's also, like, just, like, trying to be the cool new stepdad, giving two of the kids monkeys for Christmas. And one of the daughters is like, imagine monkeys as pets. Who doesn't think monkeys are the cutest thing in the world? Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So my muscle memory kept spelling it, like, monkeys EE like the band. Imagine. Just like Mickey Dolenz and Davy Jones under your Christmas tree in the morning.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like in a cage, a dream. Don't worry.

[Patrick Hines]

No, not on occasion. But, like, pets as gifts, always a bad idea. I don't care if it's a goldfish. Please don't do that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, no. Because the kids are talking about, like, the chaos of having the monkeys in the house. And this one girl's like. As though, like, life wasn't fucking chaotic enough.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. But that's how Donnie liked it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So 1974, Donnie is elected president of the school board, and then immediately, for a second, steps down due to, quote, an illness that we don't know what the illness is, and we don't know anything about it. But he just. He can't handle the stress of being a school board.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then Diane, completely abdicating her role as a mother, comes up with a quote, interesting living arrangement.

[Patrick Hines]

This is insane.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is insane.

[Ronnie Rudd]

She, I think, had it in her head that she could live with Donnie and take care of us kids and that she had a solution, which was she bought two townhomes right together. We had the two houses next door to us, the kids house and the adult house.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is insane. She and Donnie buy two townhomes right next to each other. Where does the money come from? We don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's the other thing that we kind of glossed over. There's, like, suddenly a lot of money around after the marriage. And the girls are like, what?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, you know, where the money came. Fucking Noreen's insurance money. Like, they buy two townhouses right next to each other. One for her and Donnie, one for the kids. They put the kids in a house.

[Patrick Hines]

By themselves because the kids had to be away from Donnie's personal belongings. He didn't want them touching anything. So the solution was to just, like, put them in a separate house, but right next door so she could still be a mother. And I'm like, diane.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But I'm like. The kids are saying now, like, of course, like, in the beginning, they liked it because they knew when, like, the parents went to bed and when they could start the party. But, like. Like, kids need structure. They need their parents telling them to go to fucking bed. Like, they need to know that their parents give a shit about that.

[Patrick Hines]

And what don't you want them to see exactly what are in his belongings? So, of course, the kids go over and look through everything. Of course, they're told, you need to live in a separate house because, one, we don't really care about you, and, two, you can't go through precious. Donnie's precious things. So they find a pipe collection, a stuffed Armadillo.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Cowboy boots, Lots of guns. One gun that looks like a cane. It's, like, disguised as a cane. One of the daughters is like. There was a big show of I'm a Texan. And I'm like, say no more. I get. I know exactly what that means. So Donnie was a practicing lawyer.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Diane was going to law school. Now we're in the 80s.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Donnie is at the forefront of condominium law. And he goes by Mr. Condo.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I was like, did condos become invented in the 80s? It's like, it does feel like a very 80s thing to me. Like, I was like, like, let's go. Let's go to the condo for the weekend board. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But he's known. He's Mr. Condo. He had the license plate, the vanity plate. Remember that? He had this local TV show. He's very in your face, making a name for himself as Mr. Condo.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, can you imagine watching a TV about, like, Mr. Condo was the name of his TV show about Condo law. But then again, like, the number one show on NPR for, like, five decades was Car Talk, which was just like, these two guys from Boston literally talking about fixing cars.

[Patrick Hines]

You know why people were listening to it? To go to sleep.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I bet it was. I know the number one. And they were, like, kind of quirky and funny, and they. They would, like, make jokes and stuff. But, like, Car Talk on npr, that was the number one show on npr. Look bigger than this American life.

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable hard talk. Anyway, the kids aren't stupid. They're like, something's up with this guy. It's really weird. And his stories are crazy. They don't make any sense. So the girls, they get older, and they're, like, hating everything about this. They go to Luann, the wife he left for their mother. Yes, Luann.

[Noreen Rudd]

She confirmed their suspicions. Donnie had lied.

[Ronnie Rudd]

I'd say Donnie using the CIA. And Luanne would go, he was never in the CIA. I married him right out of school. Luann would just look at us and say, he was never in the war. I would have known that.

[Patrick Hines]

He's full of shit. He's lying about all of it. And Diane didn't care.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, this is going to be just the beginning of Diane not caring at all about how horrible this man treats her for the rest of her life.

[Patrick Hines]

Not just her, but her kids.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, when the kids say, mom, something's wrong, and she does it, she's like, well, this is just my life. Like, these are the choices I'm making that will always, always Always. Cause a. Always. And that's what happened here because it became the kids versus Donnie.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And, like, we're hearing all these childish ways in which he would, like, treat the kids. They leave the window open, he would glue it shut.

[Patrick Hines]

They love to glue stuff.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Also, like, he took a sledgehammer to one of the kids TVs when she didn't move it to the place he wanted her to do.

[Patrick Hines]

Because when, like, he. When he'd get mad, he put glue in your pockets. Like, grow up. But Keith is like, did you ever take revenge?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Get any retribution?

[Patrick Hines]

And the girls are like, keith, there's nothing we do better than revenge. And they'd, like, clean the toilet with his toothbrush.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's so gross.

[Patrick Hines]

They'd hide his stuff. But the thing is, then he'd start to get violent, which is, I mean, gluing things shot, putting glue in your pockets. That's childish. But it is abusive.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And the violence is also abusive because he'd, like, smash the TV with a sledgehammer. Like, he's escalating and it's scary and.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Showing that he's scary.

[Patrick Hines]

And Keith is like, we'd love to tell you what Donnie said about this, but he declined an interview. And I'm like, my God, he's alive.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I had the same. I love it. Finding out that these pieces of shit are still alive but not sitting down. You're going to sit down with Keith, the guy who said to somebody once, I don't give a sweet flying flight. No, I'm not sitting down with Keith for an interview.

[Patrick Hines]

I would love it. Keith. I know DMs are open.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Waiting.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I've been waiting. Like, what did I do? What is it?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

How amazing would it be to get Keith for an interview? We got to. We got to do it. Remember? Tco fan? Maybe you don't remember this, but there was a time that. That Keith duet at us on Instagram.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah. Duet. Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was very funny.

[Patrick Hines]

I just. Keith.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I just. I have a lot of questions, but, like, it's such a shitty way to live as the daughters. Because, like, your mom doesn't believe you or she believes you, she just doesn't care.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, she's not saying, hi. Can you not smash the TV with a sledgehammer? Can you not be an immature, abusive asshole to my kids?

[Sasha]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, now.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And also go live next door Because I don't want to see you because my husband doesn't want to see you.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so shitty.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's very shitty.

[Patrick Hines]

So. But the girls are doing this. Like, they want to save themselves, but they want to save their mother. Like, they can see that she has these blinders on. So they go searching, they do more digging, and they find the briefcase.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And in this briefcase are photos of Noreen, who they'd never seen before.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. Remember, like, they. They'd only known of her for three weeks before she died.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And, like, lots of PA papers and files. And they're like, well, he's a lawyer, so I guess that tracks. But, like, why are these hidden? And why are all these papers with Noreen's stuff?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But they also see that there had been an inquest into her death. Like, they didn't. Like, they're seeing that the cops didn't just take his story at face value.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so it was eventually rolled. An accident. But they don't like this at all. And I don't either.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So they're like, why is this hidden? Like, is this what they didn't want us to find so much that they put us in a separate house?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, kind of. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down, girl.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Pretty Litter is back. Give us a macaroni update.

[Patrick Hines]

Macaroni is doing great. Macaroni pepperoni is healthy. And we know that thanks to Pretty Litter.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because here's the thing. Pretty Litter is that kitty litter that not only doesn't make your house stink, it has the health indicator. So when the cat uses the box, if the box turns a color, you know you're gonna take the cat to the vet right away.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Like UTIs or kidney issues. Like, here's the thing. My dog Fiona recently had a UTI issue, and we didn't know that until we took her to the vet for something else.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So if she were a cat.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. You would have known right away. And look, Pretty Litter is low dust. It is lightweight. It is non clumping.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Cause the thing is, look, cat, I love you. I really do. However, you think we can't tell that you have a cat the minute we walk in the door, you're absolutely right. Unless you have Pretty Litter, we can tell because there's dust all over the floor or it stinks.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And also having a cat, the worst thing about it was going to the grocery store and having to carry that huge box of kitty litter all the way home. Pretty Litter sends it right to your door. You never have to do that again.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It's just off your plate. You don't have to think about it. It just shows up.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Fam. Indoor cats and indoor humans agree. Pretty Litter helps my house smell fresh and clean.

[Patrick Hines]

Go to prettylitter.com tco to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I love the free cat toy. That's PrettyLittleitter.com TCO to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Patrick Hines]

PrettyLittleitter.com TCO terms and conditions apply.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

C Site for details it's not a free cat toy. I want a free cat toy.

[Patrick Hines]

Are they all mice? No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Maybe. We don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Are they all rodents? I'm not saying that is a bad thing. I think they're very cute.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Don't totally, girl. Zebiotics Pre alcohol probiotic is back. And I gotta tell you, it is Steve Tipton's favorite thing. We had a happy hour the other night. He made every person present take the pre alcohol here.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so easy because it's not like, you know, we all have stuff to do tomorrow.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, you just take this like an hour or two before you have your first drink. But you still drink smartly. So, like, you're still eating, you're still also hydrating. But when you have this first as your first drink of the night, I have to tell you, because I have used this especially during the holiday season that just ended, you really do wake up the next day being like, oh, I don't have to cancel anything tomorrow.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

So their probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Somebody was like, this is the problem we need to solve. And ZBiotics went out and did it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So here's how it works. When you drink alcohol, it gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day.

[Patrick Hines]

So pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. This is a proactive solution that works off feeling miserable the next day instead of a reactive approach like drinking electrolytes or eating greasy food.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, and we loved that part, but it's over now.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You can still have that part, though.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm having the greasy food.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, I'm telling you, we all drank it the other night at our happy hour, and all of us woke up having good mornings the next morning.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, fam. Go to zebiotics.com tco to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use TCO at checkout.

[Patrick Hines]

Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Remember to head to ZBiotics.com TCO and use code TCO at checkout for 15% off.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you, ZBiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times and great mornings. You know what?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

So it's 1981. All of the kids have turned 18 and moved out, and it's just 17 year old glory who's the only one left in the house.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now she is now in the same house. The kids house is no longer like, everyone's under.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This story is insane.

[Patrick Hines]

Gloria was home alone. She's 17 years old. The door was not locked. They never locked the door. Whatever. We don't have time. Suddenly Glorie hears footsteps upstairs, and she's like, I thought I was home alone. Like, who else is home?

[Ronnie Rudd]

And she came up the stairs and there was a woman in a fur coat walking around. And she kind of looked at me and was like, you know, who are you or what are you doing here?

[Patrick Hines]

You know, are you the cleaning lady?

[Ronnie Rudd]

And is this Donnie's house? I was like, well, I'm Donnie's stepdaughter. And she was like, well, I'm Donnie's fiance.

[Patrick Hines]

And it didn't take long for me.

[Ronnie Rudd]

To be like, oh, busted.

[Patrick Hines]

I got him. Now the girls are thrilled because they're like, this is undeniable. Our mom can't put up with this for sure.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, they think it's ridiculous and crazy, but they see it as like a way to get rid of Donnie.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So they're kind of like, this is the best thing that could have happened.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

This, like, real piece of work in the big fur coat.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But Donnie, of course, has an explanation. He's saying this woman is a clown, that she's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

He calls her a crazy woman.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And she's trying to get me in trouble by saying that we are together. She's trying to, like, ruin my marriage.

[Patrick Hines]

But what he says is actually being in this house is violating the restraining order I have on her. And I'm like, you don't tell your white. You don't tell people you have a restraining order on someone. You don't warn them and say, look, this is what's going on. If you see this woman, don't like.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You should be telling your family. Like, I feel like if you have a restraining order on someone, the person you're married to would Know about it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, and that's how you know it's a story he came up with in the moment to get out of being a Trump. Like, it's just a lie. And the document, do not buy it. So they start following him, tail him. They tell him.

[Patrick Hines]

They tell the fiance, right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly. And they're watching, like everywhere he goes.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're looking for the court records. Cause they're like, okay, if there's a restraining order, this is all documented, right? Wrong. There's no proof of any of this. No paper trail. Nothing.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And shockingly, Diane, the mom, agrees to leave him.

[Patrick Hines]

This is it. This is the last straw for her. She finally comes around. She sees what her daughters are seeing. She finally leaves Donny. So she and Glory move out, get their own place. This is 1981.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. He, of course, starts leaving love notes for Diane all over the place. All it takes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Six weeks later, she moves back in with him. And I'm like, what about the house you just bought? I know you just bought.

[Patrick Hines]

You're not buy the house or was she renting?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I have that. She bought it.

[Patrick Hines]

Holy shit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So, yeah, apologizing, love bombing, Hoovering, the whole thing. She goes back with him. But Diane is not in a good place because now, like, her eyes are open to what's going on. So, like, the relationship is awful. She's miserable. She finds out about yet another woman that he's cheating on her with. And she takes 14 sleeping pills. Like, Diane is not well. And she, like, now that her daughter sort of shed light on everything, she's still trash. Like, she's still going back to the situation. Situation.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It makes me so sad for the kids because she's taking the sleeping pills and then, like, hanging out with her daughter, hoping that her daughter's gonna notice that something is wrong. Thank God her daughter does.

[Patrick Hines]

I know these kids have been, like, abused in a bad situation for like most of their lives.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Really shitty.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, and Diana's saying, like, at least Diane is starting to feel like I blew up our lives for nothing, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

So this like, goes on and on and on. And now we're in the 90s.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so we. It takes like a kind of an insane Left turn. It's April 4, 1991. We learned that a 59 year old woman was found murdered in a nearby street Chicago suburb. Her name is Loretta Botke. She was discovered by her husband on the kitchen floor. She'd been shot in the head four times at close range, including having been shot in the Face.

[Patrick Hines]

Now the cops go to Donnie right away because he knew her. And I'm like, oh, shit. So here's what happened. Loretta was an interior designer. She was having a conflict with one of her partners. This happens all the time, right?

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She hires Donnie as her lawyer in this dispute. The family knew all about her because Donnie would not stop talking about Loretta. He was talking about her a day like she was just a major topic of conversation.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They start to assume that she's like, another woman that he's, like, having an affair with.

[Patrick Hines]

So Donnie tells Loretta.

[Loretta Bakke]

Donnie told Loretta that he'd filed a lawsuit against the former business partner and that Loretta had won something like $800,000 in the. In the suit. And Loretta was overjoyed, but never saw the money. And kind of the months went on.

[Patrick Hines]

You won $800,000?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

800 grand in this dispute with her business partner or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

That's also not how it works. Like, Loretta has to be a party to this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, you get a lawyer. Can't just be like, I did this for you on your behalf. And by the way, here's an $800,000 payout. Like, it's just.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's what happens weirdly. Life insurance seems to work that way.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like, whatever. So Loretta is happy, but she'd be a lot happier if she actually saw a penny of that $800,000.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So months and months go by and Donnie uses what we learn is his typical line, which he says a lot, which is, I can't give you the money because I have cancer.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

We're back to faking cancer. We just finished Anatomy of Lies.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, God. I know. And like after months and months and months of this, she tells him that she's going to file a compl against him. And he's like, oh, let's talk.

[Patrick Hines]

You're crazy. Loretta, you're being emotional again. You're an idiot, woman. Pipe down. Okay? Let's not get down.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I'm going to come and meet with you tomorrow before you file. Just let me. Let's have a face to face meeting.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'll give you the money. Yeah, yeah, Loretta, we don't have to file any complaints.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You're being insane, jumping off the deep end.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, it's $800,000 that I haven't paid you. It's nothing. Just relax. I'll come tomorrow. Oh, I didn't know you wanted. You wanted it. Loretta, we don't have to go like crazy. You're at 100, Loretta. Calm down.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So wait, what Else about Lorett, she's just.

[Patrick Hines]

Loretta's fucking awesome. Because Loretta is like, bitch.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Fucking.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know, Pay me. And honestly, like, you pay me, literally. Because you know that she's paid him for his like, lawyer fees or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? But yet not for the hourly time it took for him to file that lawsuit on her behalf. Like none of this happened. But she, of course, is on him. She's like, I want that money.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That doesn't exist, by the way, because there was no lawsuit. There was nothing. So the next day, the money didn't come. He promised to wire it. The money isn't there. Instead, what happens is that Loretta is murdered.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So obviously this is all connected.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

The cops talk to the neighbors. The neighbors have a ton of information.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And they hear gunshots. They also saw a man with a briefcase leave at 3:30 right after the gunshots. And, and, and, and, and they also.

[Noreen Rudd]

Said they saw a car leave around 3:30pm after the suspected gunshots.

[Loretta Bakke]

They also reported specifically that they'd seen a car at the apartment with the vanity plates of Mr. Kondo on it.

[Patrick Hines]

The vanity plates will always come and bite you. I mean, they saw the car with that stupid Mr. Condo vanity plate.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like he murdered her in the middle of the day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like this man thinks he can get.

[Patrick Hines]

Like in a stay. Stupid.

[Loretta Bakke]

Every day stupid.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a vanity plate.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know, but like, he just thinks he can get away with it because.

[Patrick Hines]

He'S gotten away with everything his whole life. This is the 90s now. Guess what?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's gonna get away with it. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I have an update.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, really?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, good.

[Patrick Hines]

So that's why the cops are at Donnie's place ASAP. Because Mr. Everyone saw. Oh, I heard gunshots. I saw Mr. Condo leave and he drove away in the Mr. Condo car. I wonder who could have done this. Right?

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he admits he was there. He's like, I was there, but I had nothing to do with the murder. He says he left at 3pm, which would have been 20 minutes before the gunshots and 30 minutes earlier than other neighbors say they saw his car leaving the driveway. So I'm like, you left and within like that 20 minute window, somebody stole your car, drove back there and killed her.

[Patrick Hines]

He's like, you're exactly right. Now you're. Now you're catching on.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So now remember, Donnie's a lawyer, okay? So the cops. Cops are at his house. The cops stupidly ask Donnie about all the guns he has.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're like, can he's. And Donnie says, you know what? Actions speak louder than words. I'm gonna go get all these guns. Let me go upstairs. Hold tight.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is so genius on Donny's part. This is like. And the cops are so fucking stupid because just to be clear, they are at his house within an hour of finding Loretta's body, right? So if. If Donnie did this, he would still have gunshot residue on his hands.

[Patrick Hines]

So he goes upstairs, gets all his.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Guns, like 30 guns.

[Noreen Rudd]

But he touched every single one.

[Ronnie Rudd]

He touched every single one. And then the police said, do you want a gunpowder residue test? He was like, what? How can you ask me that after I just handled all these guns?

[Patrick Hines]

Donnie's like, how dare you ask me that? I touched all these guns. I can't do that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of course I have gunpowder residue on my hands. I just touched 30 guns.

[Patrick Hines]

Saul Goodman would be so proud.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, it's like, these cops are so fucking stupid.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? And also, they never located the murder weapon.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So he has 30 guns, except the one used to murder Loretta.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, well, but also, right, they say they compare the bullets out of the crime scene. They don't match any of the guns that Donnie has.

[Patrick Hines]

So what happens is, like, Donnie never actually won the $800,000. And this was not close to the first time he do something like this. So he'd pretend he win a big case and then never pay the money, and then, like, pay them out of pocket. Yes, basically to, like, shut them up once they try to do this complaint. But it's like, to what end? Don't you see? This only causes drama for you?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The only thing that makes sense here, one of his stepdaughters says he would take on. He wanted to be known as, like, the big man on campus. He wanted to be the guy that took on these, like, million dollar lawsuits. So he would, like, pretend to take them on, and he would either, like, not file the lawsuit and just, like, say that he took the case. And then if he lost, he actually did take the case and lost it. He would tell everybody that he won.

[Patrick Hines]

Fake cancer for a months.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He just wants people to think that he's the guy taking the big cases. That's literally what all this comes down to.

[Patrick Hines]

There are so many complaints about him. It makes zero sense. It's so much work for him. Just like, go to school and win the cases. Yeah. Or you can do that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So he was about. But what happened is he had. He'd done this so many times, he has so many complaints against him that he's about to lose his license. And Loretta's complaint was going to get him to spar.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. Because the judge was like, one more complaint against you and you're losing your license and that. And that was what Loretta, his complaint was going to be.

[Patrick Hines]

So the police found a check from Donnie to Loretta at the scene of the murder, proving that he was doing the same shit he always said, being like, I don't actually have the $800,000, but how's like, 10 grand? Like, from his own money.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So now he's the prime suspect in Loretta's murder, and they need evidence to make an arrest. So now the cops are tailing Donnie. They're trying to figure out how to get him.

[Noreen Rudd]

So they investigated, investigated, investigated.

[Ronnie Rudd]

They followed him.

[Patrick Hines]

They.

[Ronnie Rudd]

I mean, the police. I remember the police following him. I don't think that they were trying to hide that they were out there. I think they were actually trying to make him feel uncomfortable.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're, like, not even trying to hide it. This is, like, my favorite, where they're just trying to intimidate him by, like, letting him know that they're following him around.

[Patrick Hines]

Waving in the morning, Hi. So it's November 1991. Both Donnie and his wife Diane are subpoenaed, and they have to appear before our grand jury.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, they're both lawyers. Diane had just finished law school, by the way.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Would they tell us that Diane finished law school? They show us the saddest picture of her and Donnie, like, with her and her, like, capping out on their back porch. She looks miserable. I know he looks miserable.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I think this might, to your point, a little bit part of the plan because they're working as a couple on Donnie's defense now and the whole, like, spousal privilege thing. So Diane is Donnie's best defense because Donnie, like, called her when he got home from Loretta's. There are phone records. They made a timeline together.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And now they're, like, working on his defense. Now, Diane, apparently, because her eyes are open a little bit, right?

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Diane, as a lawyer, is looking for reasonable doubt because, like, she knows he did this, and it works.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, they win. I mean, there's, like, there's no murder weapon. There's no witnesses to the actual murder.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And because they're testifying to the grand jury, the grand jury decides if there's enough to prosecute. And the grand jury is saying after Diane testifies, there isn't.

[Patrick Hines]

There's enough reasonable doubt.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. So there's like, they. They can't Take it to trial.

[Patrick Hines]

He walks. The guy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He fucking walks. He murdered her in the middle of the afternoon. People saw his car.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know. So this is a Chicago. Right. But they decide after he walks, they cut their losses and they skip town and they move to Texas, where Donnie's from. Yes, so. But there are still a lot of angry clients. Donnie's in a lot of trouble, but Diane, his wife, has a plan.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, Diane's kind of a smarty pants. Like, she. She's good at this, so.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's also like, I'm so sick of this shit. Because she writes a petition to the Texas court.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Loretta Bakke]

She said that he suffered from this personality disorder that kind of forced him into getting involved with contrast that were wasteful or damaging.

[Noreen Rudd]

A Texas judge accepted the petition.

[Ronnie Rudd]

My mom actually became his guardian. She was able to shield Donnie from having to talk to anybody about all of these different things that were popping up at that point.

[Patrick Hines]

It's ridiculous. And it works.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it works. It's like, diane, were you like the valedictorian of your fucking law school class?

[Patrick Hines]

But also, the judge clearly wasn't. Why are you accepting A personality disorder doesn't make you lie, cheat, and steal. No, like, stop.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's just like.

[Patrick Hines]

But everyone with personality disorders, honestly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Truly. Well, it shields him enough that he's, like, not in trouble anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

The judge accepts the petition, and they're like, okay, great. So he was about to deal with all of his legal issues in Illinois and potentially losing his license.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And so to avoid being questioned under oath in Illinois, he voluntarily disbursed himself.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So no law license. He filed for bankruptcy. Can I ask the room, please, dear listeners, is he still allowed to call himself a lawyer? Like, if your law license is revoked?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, I don't think it.

[Patrick Hines]

For, like, non payment or for any other reason. Yeah, like, are you still a lawyer or are you just someone who went to law school a few decades ago.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or somebody who used to be a lawyer?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, you know, you can't actually.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, the answer to that is like, if you were a lawyer and you become a judge, are you still. I guess you're still a lawyer, but.

[Patrick Hines]

If your license has been suspended for any reason, like good, bad, or indifferent, if you let the payment lapse or whatever, and it's like, you're like. Like your license is not like you can't actually practice law. Do you still call yourself a lawyer? You shouldn't.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You shouldn't. You're not a lawyer.

[Patrick Hines]

You just went to law school 20 years ago. Exactly right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And you were a lawyer for a while, but you're not anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you know, he's calling himself a fucking lawyer 100%. But meanwhile, Donnie gets a job investigating government fraud. Keith goes, how delicious is that? Like, his wife Diane works at that company as a lawyer. And I'm like, also, can you two do something without each other?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Can you stop being so codependent?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down, girl.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Shopify is back. I love Shopify because Shopify makes starting a brand new business very simple. And I got to tell you, fam, and I see this in the Facebook group all the time. If you've been thinking about starting your new business, 2025 is your year. The time is now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Shopify takes a lot of things off your plate and, like, puts it in one area that I'm. That feel very, very intimidating. And Shopify has your back on it.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Shopify makes it simple to create your brand, open for business and get your first sale. How exciting is it to get your first sale at your new business?

[Patrick Hines]

That little cha ching.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, cha Ching.

[Patrick Hines]

So get your store up and running easily with thousands of customizable templates. No coding or design skills required.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Forget it. That is the biggest barrier to entry.

[Patrick Hines]

Huge. All you need to do is drag and drop.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly. Exactly. They're powerful social media tools, let you connect to all your channels and create shoppable posts and help you sell everywhere people scroll. We're talking all the things.

[Patrick Hines]

So this is what I'm saying. Instead of being like, oh, I got to do this, Oh, I got to do that. Like, it's all cohesive.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they're going to make it easy to grow the business. By the way, the scary stuff, they're going to help with all of it. We're talking shipping, taxes, and payments from one single dashboard, allowing you to focus on the important stuff. Like growing your business.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Like, I don't know, actually growing your business.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I was going to say, you're the creative. Be creative. Let Shopify do all the hard stuff.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because with Shopify, your first sale is closer than you think. Touching.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, fam. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Sign up for your $1 per month trial [e-mail] obsessed. And that's all lowercase.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Go to shopify.com obsessed to start selling with Shopify today.

[Patrick Hines]

Shopify.com obsessed.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We love the sound.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, man. So it's May 5th, 1995, and Diane is diagnosed with what they describe as an aggressive recurrence of breast cancer.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She had breast cancer a few minutes ago in the documentary. And I didn't even write it down because she was so proactive about it that they wiped it out so quickly.

[Patrick Hines]

And now it's back and it's super aggressive.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I just was like, does that happen? Like, you can get, like, you can have breast cancer that is removed. That was, like, minor to the point that, like, you know, and then all of a sudden, it is terminal.

[Patrick Hines]

Cancer is like, Jesus is the fucking worst. It's like. It's unpredictable. It's real fudgeing bad.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And she knows. Like, she knows there's, like, a ticking clock.

[Patrick Hines]

Now. Diane is now asking the kids, who Donnie totally dropped and is not speaking.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

To his birth children, not her kids. She's now saying the likes of. There's Teresa, his daughter, because we're told Donnie had, quote, fallen out of touch with the four kids he had with Luann.

[Patrick Hines]

No, they went no contact.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They went absolutely no contact. Smartly, like, 100%.

[Patrick Hines]

Now she's asking them to, quote, take care of him and clean up his messes. And Teresa, who's 23, is like, no. Also, I hate him.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, he should be. He made his messes. He should clean him up.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or also, maybe he should just go to prison for, like, the murders that he's done. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Wonderful.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

Donnie's now off the rails. He's ranting, he's raving. He has information about Whitewater. He's faking cancer again, like, it just never ends with this guy. Meanwhile, his wife Diane, actually has cancer.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And everyone, all the kids think Donnie's poisoning her to make it worse.

[Ronnie Rudd]

It sounds so bizarre, but I remember sitting in her oncologist's office, and Donnie's in the chair. She's on the table, and she's telling Dr. Jones, I'm sitting there that Donnie is giving her hormones in her Gatorade. And she's saying, he's trying to kill me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's got the kind of cancer that, like, estrogen makes it worse, according to Diane. And she's saying that he is putting estrogen in her Gatorade, putting estrogen in his. In her food.

[Patrick Hines]

So maybe it's aggressive because he's making it aggressive.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. Like, to the point that, like, Diane is at the doctor with her daughter and Donnie, and she's saying to the doctor, he's trying to kill me.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it's a mess.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The doctor takes the daughter outside and was like, girl, what is going on here.

[Patrick Hines]

So Diane's daughters essentially, like, kidnapped Diane just to get her away from Donnie. Because what they're saying is. And it's so dark, but, like, this is kind of where they are. They just want her to be able to die in peace.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, they don't want things to be worse. He's so chaotic and awful and toxic and mean and abusive. They just want her to have, like, the last few weeks of her life in peace.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes. And they're, by the way, during this time, discovering more jewelry store receipts. Like, he's got other girlfriends in other places that he's, like, buying expensive jewelry for. They're also saying she took care of herself until she couldn't. And then we had to, because she knew that he wouldn't.

[Patrick Hines]

He wouldn't. And he's making it worse. She's scared of him.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Donnie tracks them down, because of course he does. And, like, it's so sad because Diane is, like, really excited to see him. And she gets all dressed up, and the daughters are describing it that, like, she's just so weak and frail and sick, but, like, she put on, like, a wig and makeup. Like, she wants to look pretty for him. I know this guy is like. And Keith. And Keith is even. Like, this might be the saddest thing I've ever heard.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's so sad.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, the daughters are like, yup. And it's not over, Keith.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's not. It's not over because he walks in. Donnie walks in, and within minutes of seeing his wife, who's dying and who, like, just wants him to be nice to her.

[Ronnie Rudd]

So he came to the house, and I went in to make some tea, and when I came back, he had opened his briefcase. He was trying to. To get her to sign things. He had come there specifically to try and get her to sign paper, giving him stuff. Like what stuff Quickly, indeed, for the house, car titles, things like that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's putting documents in front of her, trying to get her to, like, turn over the house to him. The cars, put everything in his name. And thank God one of her daughters swoops in and was like, no one's signing anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, rips the paper out of her hands. They put an end to that shit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But as soon as they do, he stays for five more minutes and he's like, well, I've got a noon flight back to go.

[Patrick Hines]

He leaves.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

What a piece of shit.

[Patrick Hines]

So Diane dies in June of 1996. Donnie, of course, making it about himself. He's, like, using fake Crutches at the funeral. Like, fuck off.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now the kids just want Donnie out of their lives. Like, their mother isn't here anymore. So there's no real attachment to him. Like, they want to go super. No contact. They don't even care about charging him with anything at this point. They just want him gone. But Loretta Bakke's family disagrees. Because he killed her.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So they want him tried for her murder. They are not moving on.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, her daughter is like a dog with a bone this way. She's incredible. She knows Donnie is responsible for her mother's murder. She goes to see the cops every year on the anniversary of the murder with, like, cookies and cupcakes. And it's like, please don't forget about my mother. And then also calls Donnie every year on the anniversary.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Good for her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So this is how she gets done.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

A lot of the time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Kathy from the fire.

[Patrick Hines]

At all, so. Oh, great. Donnie's married yet again. I know a woman named Mary. Wife number four tells her all the same lies. Within nine months, she calls bullshit. And it's an old.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Can I tell you you. He has a fake Congressional Medal of Honor on the wall at his house.

[Patrick Hines]

The amount of effort that shit takes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, the stolen val like that is so fucked up.

[Patrick Hines]

Did he steal it from. He must have stolen it from somebody else.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, I think he just, like, made what he thought one would look like or what he thought she would think one would look like. Who knows? I think it was like a certificate or whatever effort. I know, but it's so fucked. And like, when she finds out, she, like, tries to leave him, but she has to file restraining orders against him because now he's following her around.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And then a few weeks later, he marries Emma, wife number five that met on match.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So Donnie and his twin brother are like, pretty much estranged. Ronnie hates them. And so Donnie decides this is always very suspicious. Donnie, like, never gave a shit about his parents or his father. And now suddenly, Donnie decides that he and his wife are going to move in with their ailing father and just take over everything, which is always a red flag.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, especially because he cuts off communication with the rest of the family. And within like three weeks, he's emailing his brother, being like, hey, dad died a few days ago and I buried him yesterday.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And before any autopsy could be done and before you were here to be able for him, you how I've been treating him.

[Loretta Bakke]

And of course, right before he passes away, he's changed his Will to leave everything to Donnie and making Donnie the executor of his estate. So he just essentially left everything to him.

[Patrick Hines]

Donnie gets all of it.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

When I tell you that this shit happens all the time, I can think of four or five instances off the top of my head.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Really?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Like siblings going insane and making this about them. Or, like, manipulating the person to change the will.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, this happened to Mike's grandmother. And he got to, like, watch his uncle in court, who was a lawyer, like, fight for it. Like, she was totally manipulated by one of the other siblings to change the will. And, like, they couldn't do anything about it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, it's so, like, the elderly are so vulnerable in this regard.

[Patrick Hines]

It's crazy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And you would think that, like, there's, like, people who specialize in this kind of thing to, like, make sure this doesn't happen.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Actually, Saul Goodman did elder law.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, did he?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Anyway, but this happens all the time. Like, manipulating.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

That's right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Bonnie Bartlett was on one of those episodes. She was like, oh, God. She was on that. That amazing episode of the Golden Girls where she played Barbara Thorndyke on the Golden Girls. She was on an episode of. It was like, the last thing that she did. She's still alive.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But she was. I remember seeing her on an episode of Better Call Saul being like, oh, my God, that's Bobby Bartlett.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Doing the elder care thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah. The elder law. And he was great. They all loved him. He was great. He's doing the bingo nights. Like, he was great.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's like, such a noble profession.

[Patrick Hines]

It was when he was still Jimmy McGill, I think. He wasn't Saul, yet. He did, like, go over to that side. Anyway, so we're in the 2000s now. The year 2000. Whatever. He's no longer Mr. Kondo. He's now Dr. Donn.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's become a scientist. In 2002, he's hired as the chief scientist and director of intellectual property at a Houston based biotech company.

[Patrick Hines]

He's working. He's like. He made a deal with the government. Allegedly. He's using NASA's equipment. He's working with stem cells.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, making deals with NASA to study stem cells in a gravity free environment. Did he?

[Patrick Hines]

Or is he just saying it?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, this journalist who's with us the whole time was like, can somebody show us where he went to medical school?

[Patrick Hines]

He does have a website, but no record of going to medical school. Eventually. Eventually. Wife number five learns the truth and bails.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's 2012. The cops are still working on Loretta Bakke's case in that investigation because they never like Donnie at all. They look into like all of the tragedies that have happened in his life.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

They start looking into the death of 19 year old Noreen who died in the car crash in 1973, which is where we started. So Donnie later told his step kids it was that assassination attempt on his life. But they got Noreen. It's. There's that inquest about it, like, very, very suspicious.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they. It took them until 2012 to learn.

[Loretta Bakke]

A few weeks after that is when he gets all the life insurance payouts from his marriage to Noreen. And so he got about $120,000 a few weeks after that.

[Noreen Rudd]

Most of that came from an optional additional policy. Donnie was the sole beneficiary. Today the payout would be worth more than half a million dollars.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Donnie got a huge life insurance payout from Noreen. Like they didn't know this at the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He got a life insurance payout that would be the equivalent of $500,000 in today's money.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Remember, he left his family to be with Diane, then left Diane to be with this woman for three weeks, gets this life insurance payout, and the next day is back with Diane. Diane knew.

[Patrick Hines]

She knew, she knew, she knew. So they look at the details of the crime scene again, like all that evidence from 1973. And Donnie said, like, someone tried to run them off the road, but we never found that person. There are no witnesses. Donnie's car barely had any damage. And like, why was the car door open? Especially after everything we just learned about the Ford Pinto.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

That the doors would jam shut in an impact. But. But now in 2012, like, they know that about the Pinto.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So for him to be like, the car flew open, like, that is the one car where, like, it was recalled because the cars wouldn't fly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly, exactly. Exactly. And also that she had, quote, fallen out of the car and repeatedly hit her head on this rock. And then he dragged her back into.

[Patrick Hines]

Why would he pick her up? Like, it doesn't make any sense.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. The cops working the case now, they get in touch with the original cops from the original case and they're like, we never believed this guy, but we could.

[Patrick Hines]

White guys.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But there's nothing that we. It was just good to know that at least back in the day. People were like, this is very suspicious.

[Patrick Hines]

They know. Yeah, they know. So the cops. Cops need to exhume the body to get answers. So February 2013, 40 years after Noreen died, her body is exhumed, and for the first time, they do an autopsy.

[Sasha]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And everything they find completely contradicts almost everything they thought they knew or what they were told.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because in the original case, they said that the cause of death was a fractured spine. And so when they exhume her, unlike.

[Noreen Rudd]

The original cause of death, the autopsy revealed no fractured in Loretta's spine. The results were checked by two more independent medical examiners. All agreed Noreen Rudd's manner of death was officially changed to a homicide caused by blunt force trauma.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was all the result of blunt force trauma to the head. Several times he picked up this rock and beat her to death with it.

[Patrick Hines]

So Noreen's cause of death was officially changed to homicide caused by blunt force trauma, not an accident.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And when her family reburied her with this new information, they took her married name off of her tombstone and changed it to her maiden name.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, the cops head back down to Texas. They track down Donnie Rudd. He voluntarily goes in for questioning, but he can't remember anything. Like, years are going by, and I'm just like, cute Jesse Pinkman. He can't keep getting away with it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. But he says when they. He doesn't realize they're calling him in to question him about the Noreen case. They show him a picture of Noreen. He pretends to not know who she is.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? So it's all bullshit. But when they finally arrest him for murder.

[Sasha]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He goes, which one?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Because he's 73 years old now. So what? He doesn't give a shit. Right? And he's gotten away with it forever. And now he thinks he'll just, like, talk his way out of it. So they arrest him for Noreen's murder when he's 73. Now, Loretta, her murder is also part of this case. This doesn't always happen. They're using it to get a high bail for him, so. Because they, like, prove Noreen, and now they're tying this together. And so his bail is $4 million. But, like, they don't always combine cases like this. And we've been seeing that a lot recently, weirdly enough. But it works in our favor, kind.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of, because he sits in prison for nine months. But then at some point, some woman bails him out. He somehow gets some girlfriend from prison who puts up the 400 grand to get him out on bail.

[Patrick Hines]

Explain. I make it make sense. I will never understand it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, what did he tell her?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. We have a bombshell, though.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God, we do.

[Patrick Hines]

There's an email from 1995.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Diane's daughters write a book. They don't tell us the name of the book, but the daughters write a book. And in their research, they're going through all of their mom's stuff. They're going through all of her papers. They're trying to get all of the communication between Donnie and the mom. They find a. An email to Diane from Donnie that.

[Ronnie Rudd]

Says, hi, I'm leaving work early. What did you do with the gun? If the Arlington Heights police find it, they can't trace it to me. Anyway, I'll see you at home. And then two minutes later, I see my mom. I love you, too, but I don't know what gun you're talking about.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So he's talking about Loretta's murder.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, clearly Diane knew something.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, unless.

[Patrick Hines]

Where did she set? Like, come on.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Unless he's, like, writing her that email to set her up. But why would he do that if she didn't know? It would be like tipping his hair. Obviously, Diane knew.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a dark and sad reality, but it's true. And the daughters, like, the sisters, turn these emails over to the cops to help them with their case, and they're.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Saying, like, it seems like my mom probably knew.

[Patrick Hines]

And so he's convicted of Noreen's murder.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So the documentary ends with everyone being like, you know, Donnie is just, like, running out the clock. He's, like, trying to throw every wrench he can in the plan of, like, the prosecution. We don't even know if, like, this is even ever going to get to trial. Like, is he. He's trying to basically die of old age before this ever goes to trial. And we don't know what's going to happen. But you have an update.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I know. What happened? So, like, two seconds after the stock came out, like, I kind of can't believe they haven't updated it.

[Sasha]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He was sentenced to 75 to 150 years.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

And he died in prison four years later. He's dead.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, he's dead. That's so great.

[Patrick Hines]

Honestly, the world is a better place without him because every. He left disaster and death and horrifying shit in his wake. So good.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Ruining the lives of all of those kids that poor.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, kids had to. They chose none of it. Like, all the women he killed. God knows what else he did, like, poisoning people. He's just an asshole. And he's Dead.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yay. Oh, my goodness, fam. Remember, if you want to join the TCO book club, and you should, we are taking it really seriously. Sasha's really taking it running with it. Go to the Facebook group. Look for the pin post. That is a Google form. You just fill that out, and Sasha will be in touch, and she'll let you know when the next meeting is.

[Patrick Hines]

Love it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sending out a newsletter once a month. It's very, very cool.

[Patrick Hines]

Love it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

What do we do next? Girl?

[Patrick Hines]

The Whitmans on Discovery. Have you seen this? No, it's.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

What is it?

[Patrick Hines]

It's about a family dealing with a son who killed their other son. So it's like. It's very tragic, but the boys were young. It's like a. It's really. It's super highly requested, but the Whitman's on Discovery.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

All right, well, fam, stay tuned for the trailer for that. And we love you, my.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we love you. And remember, Donnie Red's dead.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Donnie Rudd.

[Patrick Hines]

So that should make you feel nice. That should make you feel a little bit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, take that and run with it.

[Patrick Hines]

I've never, like, talked about death as much as I have on the show, obviously, and it's like, I've never celebrated it, of course, as much as I do on the show, where pieces of like Donnie Rudd are just. We're rid of him.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're just. He's gone.

[Patrick Hines]

He's gone now.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yay. Okay, Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye, Bye. My younger son, Greg Whitman, was 13.

[Noreen Rudd]

Years old, walked into the door of.

[Patrick Hines]

The house and probably immediately had his throat slashed. The first thing I think to myself.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Is, there's no way that knife did that damage. And if that knife did that damage.

[Patrick Hines]

I want to see the hands of the attacker. My older son came down and found his brother slashed 104 times.

[Ronnie Rudd]

The investigation was geared to proving that.

[Loretta Bakke]

They were right in their initial assumption.

[Ronnie Rudd]

As a Jack was guilty, and that was it.

[Patrick Hines]

Called 911 and was told to move his brother into a different position that he was in. Got blood on his sweatshirt. We need to help the brother.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Now, police force of five people in.

[Noreen Rudd]

Total wrongfully accused him, ultimately wrongfully convicted him, and in the process essentially killed.

[Patrick Hines]

The parents as well. Hold on a second. Okay, you're sure that he's not breathing? I'm pretty sure. His clothes open.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Come on.

[Patrick Hines]

You can't breathe like that.