411: The Witmans

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed - Episode 411: The Whitmans

Release Date: January 21, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 411 of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Patrick Hines and Jillian Benzavalli delve deep into the harrowing case of the Whitman family from Pennsylvania. This episode meticulously examines the tragic murder of Gregory Whitman and the subsequent conviction of his older brother, Zachary Whitman, amidst questions of innocence and flawed investigations.

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The Crime Scene and Immediate Aftermath

The episode opens on October 2, 1998, a seemingly ordinary Friday filled with school events like homecoming and spirit week. At 3:17 PM, tragedy strikes when Gregory Whitman, aged 13, is brutally murdered in his home.

• Zachary's 911 Call: Zachary, then 14, calls 911 stating, "I came downstairs and my brother, he's blood." ([12:06] Patrick Hines)

The violence of the crime is depicted with Gregory suffering 62 stab wounds to the neck, resulting in near decapitation—a scene so gruesome that Gregory's body was still warm when first responders arrived.

• Emergency Responders' Observation: EMTs noted Gregory's state as "horrifying," with one EMT stating, "Gregory was almost decapitated." ([15:37] Patrick Hines)

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Investigation Flaws and Evidence Issues

The Whitman case is marred by significant investigative shortcomings. The local police force, inexperienced in handling homicides, mishandled critical evidence and procedures.

• Luminol Misuse: The police attempted to use luminol to detect blood traces, but due to their inexperience, the evidence collection was flawed. "[...] they went to photograph it because luminol apparently only lights up for 30 seconds, but they had the camera on the wrong shutter speed, so none of the pictures came out." ([27:38] Patrick Hines)

• Blood Evidence Contradictions: Despite the brutal nature of the crime, Zachary had minimal blood on him, contradicting the assumption that he was the sole perpetrator. "If he committed a violent crime, he'd be covered in blood," ([17:58] Jillian Benzavalli) yet examinations revealed otherwise.

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Trial and Conviction

Zachary Whitman was tried as an adult, a decision influenced by Pennsylvania law, which allows juveniles charged with murder to be prosecuted as adults.

• Court Proceedings: At the trial, prosecutors presented a narrative of a premeditated murder, emphasizing Zachary's alleged motive stemming from familial conflicts. "[...] he was so mad at Greg because he hung up on Zachary's girlfriend." ([40:07] Patrick Hines)

• Defense Challenges: Defense attorney David McLaughlin faced criticism for not securing expert witnesses, weakening Zachary's defense against the prosecution's claims. "Sue, the mom, says he thought he knew everything about blood spatter and didn't want expert witnesses." ([69:42] Patrick Hines)

After lengthy deliberations, the jury found Zachary guilty, sentencing him to life without parole on May 21, 2003.

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Post-Conviction and Appeal for Justice

In 2016, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that sentencing juveniles to life without parole is unconstitutional, opening the door for potential resentencing in Zachary's case.

• Family's Plea: The Whitmans have staunchly maintained Zachary's innocence, advocating for his exoneration. They argue that the investigation was tainted by police incompetence and a rush to judgment under community pressure.

• Private Investigator's Involvement: Years later, the Whitmans hired private investigator Jeff Stein, who pursued a nonexistent suspect, further complicating the narrative and casting doubt on the validity of Zachary's conviction.

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Emotional Toll on the Whitman Family

The Whitmans' lives were irrevocably shattered by the dual loss of their sons—Gregory's murder and Zachary's wrongful conviction.

• Marital Strain: The couple's relationship deteriorated, reducing them to more of roommates united solely by their quest to free their son. "Their lives have been destroyed in an instant... they're torturing themselves," ([45:37] Patrick Hines) reflects Jillian.

• Living with Trauma: They remained in the family home to preserve the crime scene for potential future trials, leading to a pervasive atmosphere of grief and resentment. "Sue had a meltdown and threw Ron's clothes all over the floor," ([84:52] Patrick Hines) illustrates the ongoing emotional chaos.

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Critical Analysis and Expert Opinions

Throughout the episode, the hosts consult with experts like Bryan Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative, who underscores how societal pressures can lead to wrongful convictions.

• Systemic Failures: Stevenson notes, "Pressure like this leads to wrongful convictions... because the cops want to close the case even if they don't have the evidence." ([26:45] Jillian Benzavalli)

• Forensic Concerns: The absence of thorough forensic analysis and the mishandling of evidence, such as the missing sweatpants and improper blood spatter interpretation, highlight systemic flaws that may have contributed to an unjust conviction.

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Conclusion

Episode 411 of True Crime Obsessed presents a compelling examination of the Whitman case, juxtaposing the family's unwavering belief in Zachary's innocence against a backdrop of investigative incompetence and systemic biases. The hosts leave listeners pondering the complexities of justice, the impact of societal pressures on legal outcomes, and the enduring quest for truth and redemption in the face of profound tragedy.

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Notable Quotes:

• Patrick Hines at [12:06]: "I came downstairs and my brother, he's blood."
• Jillian Benzavalli at [15:37]: "Gregory was almost decapitated."
• Bryan Stevenson at [26:45]: "Pressure like this leads to wrongful convictions... because the cops want to close the case even if they don't have the evidence."

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For those interested in exploring more true crime stories with a blend of humor and heart, subscribe to True Crime Obsessed and join Patrick and Jillian on their journey through some of the most intriguing cases.

Transcript

[Patrick Hines]

Fam, it's Patrick. Before we get to the show, I'm so excited to tell you that I've added 10 cities to my storytelling party tour. So in addition to the cities you already know about, in March and April, I'll be coming to Dallas, Austin, Houston, Portland, San Francisco, Phoenix, Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. And believe it or not, we're going to be adding even more cities very soon. All the tickets for the shows we've announced so far, including these, are on sale right [e-mail] so in case you have no idea what I'm talking about on this tour, I'm inviting you to come for the show and stay for the party. So for the first part of the evening, I'm telling you a hilarious story about a disastrous night I spent with Golden Girls icon Bea Arthur. I loved her. I was obsessed with her. She hated me, but she needed me. So hilarity ensued. I have this terrific drag performer playing Bea Arthur from beyond the grave via video to tell her side of this ridiculous story. It is hilarious, it is ridiculous. And it is just under an hour long. So for the second part of the evening, we all go to the bar and drink and hang out and make new friends. It's a cash bar. And do not be afraid to come alone. That is very important. Do not be afraid to come alone. We've made special stickers for solo travelers to wear if you're looking to make new friends. And we've made other stickers for people who've come in groups but want to invite solo travelers to hang out with their group. It's going to be an amazing night of laughing our butts off and making new friends. And I cannot wait to meet every single one of you. Oh, and just a heads up, we are down to just a few tickets left in Seattle and Salt Lake City. Shows are selling out, fam. So grab your tickets while you can@Patrick Tours.com. and I cannot wait to see you on the road. I ate an entire bag of nerds candy, like, right before you got here. And I feel high.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, phenomenal.

[Patrick Hines]

I feel great.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Great. Sugar high. Gotta have it. Really needed to get little Empire records for days. Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Take it anytime.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

All right.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi. Jillian Benzavalli.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

Girl, how was your vacation?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was great. How was your vacation?

[Patrick Hines]

It was good. Mine was like, pre Christmas, we went and saw my nephew in the professional production of the Nutcracker.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

How was it?

[Patrick Hines]

Did I tell I made a TikTok about this. He's seven years old and he is so proud to have gay uncles. We had to drop all the kids off at the stage door. There are 62 kids in each performance, so it was 62 kids plus all of their parents. Right. So all of those people at the stage door, I'm holding my nephew and he screams to the gathered crowd, this is my uncle. This is my other uncle. And they're gay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's right. Love it. And everyone cheers.

[Patrick Hines]

What about you? You were at the beach?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I was at the beach a little bit. 100 SPF the way to go. Oh, yeah, we had a great time. It was like a very good, really fun party filled holiday season.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, that's so great.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

December was. And now I'm back with like a little bit of a weird throat thing because like humidity into ac.

[Patrick Hines]

It just sounds sexy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Thanks. Mike and I had like dance parties every night on vacation. It was so much fun.

[Patrick Hines]

That is the best fam. You might not know this, but we haven't seen each other in two weeks.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In two weeks at least.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, I'm so glad to come back and be like refreshed and rejuvenated.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Back in the saddle again Back in the saddle again Filled with nerds.

[Patrick Hines]

I have not eaten a bag of candy since I was in high school, but I went out and bought a bag of candy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

What do you think about our intro today? I think it was a good one.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, this is the.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I didn' what are we talking about today, girl?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We are talking about the Whitmans.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, man, are we ever.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

My younger son, Greg Whitman, was 13 years old, walked into the door of the house and probably immediately had his throat slashed.

[Patrick Hines]

The first thing I think to myself is there's no way that knife did that damage. And if that knife did that damage, I want to see the hands of the attacker.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

My older son came down and found his brother slashed 104 times. The investigation was geared to proving that they were right in their initial assumption that Zach was guilty. And that was it. I'm trying to help you.

[Patrick Hines]

I need to call my mom. Called 911 and was told to move.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

His brother into a different position that he was in. Got blood on his sweatshirt. We need to help your brother.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay. Now police force, five people in total, wrongfully accused him and ultimately wrongfully convicted him and in the process essentially killed.

[Patrick Hines]

The parents as well. Hold on a second.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay, you're sure that he's not breathing? I'm pretty sure. His switch floats open.

[Patrick Hines]

Come on. You can't breathe like that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We get some really shitty information right at the top on. On screen text.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I can't believe I didn't know this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. But then once you hear it, you're like, oh, typical.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The United States is the only nation in the world that sentences its children to life without parole. Pennsylvania has the highest number of children sentenced to die in prison. This is the story of one.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And, like, we open right away with old family videos, and it's like a dad playing with the sons at bath time, and the mom is sort of like filming, like, with the camera. They just seem like a very happy, lovey dovey family. It's two brothers and a mom and a dad.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So it's Ron Whitman, Sue Whitman. They're the parents, and Zach and Greg are the sons. And Greg is our victim here. I'm just gonna say it right at the top. Gregory is our victim.

[Patrick Hines]

We meet sue, the mom, you know, and she's saying she didn't think she was gonna be able to have biological kids. So when she was able to have Zachary is the firstborn, she was over the moon. And then Greg came along and she was just like, so thrilled to, like, have a family.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And we learned, you know, of course, typical, great family, loved going on vacations. Everyone was happy. Did they have issues? Yes, normally just like everyone else. But, like, all around, things were going so well.

[Patrick Hines]

I love that she says that Gregory has an amazing sense of humor, which he got from me, of course.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sue. Sue's a real piece of work. Now, Zach, I'm just going to say it here so you're not confused. Dear listener, Zachary is one of the children that was sentenced to prison.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Zack is accused of killing his brother.

[Patrick Hines]

Gregory, which we'll get to in a few minutes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Zack, right at the top, is described as an instigator. And we get this video of Zack being told repeatedly not to hit Greg with a toy car and doing it anyway. I'm sure every parent listening is like, that happens 27 times a day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's October 2017, and we start with the parents going to visit Zach in prison. That prison, it's dungeony Y.

[Patrick Hines]

It's dark inside.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I look at Zach and I see him in the jumpsuit that's four sizes too big. He lost all his hair. He can only shave one time, so.

[Patrick Hines]

He looks so rough.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's the pictures that the newspapers continue to put in and talking about, like, the horrible conditions and what it's like to have to visit your son in prison for killing your other son.

[Patrick Hines]

But also Stopping at the dollar store for an energy drink and coffee, of course, which I totally support.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Those are long trips.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, but I love that sue drinks like a Red Bull. I love a Red Bull for Sue.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now that you're like, you had a box of nerds, you're all about the sugar first thing in the morning.

[Patrick Hines]

I am a box of. How do you think Ron takes his coffee? Is there something for coffee and an energy drink at the Dollar store?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

What does Dollar store coffee like?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. I mean, light. You gotta light sweet. Light sweet for sure.

[Patrick Hines]

100%.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Cause that makes every coffee kind of. That evens the playing field a little bit.

[Patrick Hines]

I think you're absolutely right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Cause I think if you're someone who likes black coffee, it's like, oh, you're very particular. But if you just throw in whatever sweetener and creamer, I don't give a shit. If you just make it light and sweet, I'm good to go.

[Patrick Hines]

Steve asked me the other day if the half and half tasted a little bit off. I was like, I wonder how long it's been out.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, you left it out for two days.

[Patrick Hines]

But they're in the truck and they're, they're going to see their. And the mom is saying that were it not for the guilt that she feels, she wouldn't even go into the prison. I don't know what that means. Like she wouldn't go visit him.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. I think it's really complicated when you lose your two kids in an instant.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I think that is well said. A lot of the things that happen here that I might find confusing or from an outside perspective.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Really is sort of solved with like, oh, they lost two of their kids right away.

[Patrick Hines]

And to explain, Zachary is accused of killing his younger brother Gregory, who's two years younger than him. And the parents absolutely do not believe that he did that. They absolutely believe that he is innocent.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And on the other hand, it's also the conversation of should a 14 year old be tried as an adult and sent to prison for the rest of his life, no matter what happens?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean the answer to that is obviously absolutely fudgeing. Not.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's that whole. That's why the on screen text.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know, and we'll get more into.

[Patrick Hines]

It in a minute. But like the whole idea of this is that when you try a 14 year old as an adult and sentence them to life in prison, they never get a chance to be rehabilitated. You never get a chance to check in with them and see you know what I mean? Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're just thrown away.

[Patrick Hines]

They're just literally, literally just thrown away.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it happens in all different types of crime, by the way.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know, it happens all the time, especially with, like young kids of color. How many times have we seen this? Like, they're just like whatever. And you know, not whatever. I'm just, I'm trailing off.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It's one of those things where I don't know how I feel about whether I think Zachary is the killer here or not. I definitely do not think there was enough evidence to convict him. And we'll get into all of it, but, like, I don't necessarily agree with the parents. So that's kind of one of the things that makes this documentary so interesting.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So we all take supplements or we.

[Patrick Hines]

Should, we know we should be as you get older, as I can say with experience, you know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But why are so many supplement companies charging these ridiculous prices for products that really, if I'm being honest, aren't that special?

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, exactly. You know, you know, everyone's talking about magnesium these days, which is a true statement.

[Patrick Hines]

I just said, what have you been on TikTok?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Seriously? So I'm all about that ultra magnesium complex because it helps with, with sleep, but it also helps with managing stress or if you have difficulty focusing.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

Just think about the far, far, far future. So let's go to the day of the murder.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's October 2, 1998. It's a Friday. It was homecoming. It was like the big football game.

[Patrick Hines]

There's so much of these kids just talking about being excited about being kids. Like, it was a Friday in the fall. It was a beaut. They loved being in high school. Homecoming was that night. There's the homecoming dance was that night. The big game was over the weekend.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like this whole week has been great and fun and a lot of events. Spirit week.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So sue, the mom, worked at the bank and the boys always called sue at 3:20pm right after school. It is now 3:40 and she hasn't heard from them.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's like, she doesn't know why. But then it cuts to the 911.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Call and it's Zachary who is imprisoned for murder. Zachary calls 911 right now. He says Zach was upstairs slee because he was sick. He heard a noise. He goes downstairs to find Gregory, who's 13 years old in what Zachary calls the back room, like the laundry room. 91 1.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I just came downstairs and my brother, he's blood.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's all cut off.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. I guess he did send someone. Now I'm gonna say, I know we don't do that thing about, like, what people sound like or whatever, but, like, this whole call is very suspect to me. We hear what Zachary is saying. He says, my brother, his throat is all cut up. I don't know. I guess he's dead. You gotta send someone. He says it with no emotion in.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

His voice right now. A question could be. I'm not judging anything. I'm just asking a question. If you find your brother like that, would you have the wherewithal to think maybe the killer's in the house? Maybe I should get the fuck out of here? You would think maybe, but maybe I wouldn't. I don't know. Like, I really don't know if you're even thinking that clearly.

[Patrick Hines]

You absolutely would go into shock.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He also says they the dispatcher asks, how old is he, meaning Gregory? And he says he was 13.

[Patrick Hines]

He was 13. He instantly refers to him in the past.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now maybe again, I'm just gonna say all sides here. If you see Gregory in the condition that Gregory is in, which is incredibly violent and horrific.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The assumption that you make is that he's definitely. Cuz it's a very bloody scene.

[Patrick Hines]

It's very bloody. But once again, Zack is giving too much detail. He's like, I was homesick. I heard a noise downstairs. I came downstairs, found my brother in the back room. He's just laying there, he's all bloody. It's a little bit more than I think you would like. You would just be screaming, get somebody here, get somebody. Oh my God. Oh my God, my brother.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

No, Maybe that's just how I would handle.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. But then again, like I've said, I think you would be much calmer than you think you would be.

[Patrick Hines]

I love you for giving me that credit. And I think it depends on that. If it was me and Daisy, I would be very calm. If it was me and somebody who needed me to save them, I think I would be calm. But I think like, if you were there or Steve were there and somebody else was going to get a feeling like, like there's no question. I'd be more hysterical.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I would like, I'd be like, patrick, I have to ask you to leave.

[Patrick Hines]

But if we're in an elevator with a bomb, then what?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Then I'd be like, like, I need to get out of here because I need him to leave. That would become my motivation of like, I can't think, I need to think. Like, I need to deactivate this bomb in 30 seconds. Shut up. Then I'd be like, that would be my motivation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For saving all of us.

[Patrick Hines]

Uh huh. Everybody but everyone lives in that situation.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I hope. Fingers crossed.

[Patrick Hines]

So the EMTs arrive. They say they see Zach standing in the driveway. They say he was freaking out and screaming, but the one guy says, but no real tears. And that's what stood out to us. Now this I don't like because. Because we are in a town where very quickly everyone's gonna decide that Zack is guilty. And everybody like knows like these EMTs are like, he wasn't really crying.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. Is that the hindsight? Is that just being shitty? I don't know. But they said he was just like screaming. He's covered in blood and he is just screaming, which I Understand the one big thing here. I took the backside of a gloved hand and laid it on his face. This boy was still warm. That was like. Yeah, this, this, this was a fresh kill. Whoever did this, you know, are they still here in this same room waiting to come out and get me?

[Patrick Hines]

You know, this murder just happened. Now remember, it is broad daylight. It is 3:17 in the afternoon.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This murder just happened. The only person there is Zach.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And remember they were supposed to call sue at 3:20.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And by 3:40 she hadn't heard from them.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And also I just want to say this was, was, I'm sorry to say it, an incredibly violent murder. When Zachary calls 91 1, he mentions that when he tried to move his brother, his head practically came off, is the quote. And when the EMTs get there, they confirm, they are horrified. They're even saying today like Gregory was almost decapitated.

[Patrick Hines]

He was 62 times in the neck.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. So that comes back later. So I just want to say it now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But it happened. And the EMTs are the ones who are like, it happened so recently that they thought the killer was still in the garage.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. I mean, and we will get the timeline. And the timeline is, you know what I mean? We are gonna learn that Greg walked in the front door from the school bus and was dead within like 13 minutes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Nobody saw anybody else. They live in a neighborhood. It is the middle of the afternoon and we do not like.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like the school bus is dropping kids off.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. And it's a neighborhood. They don't live in the middle of the woods. It's a neighborhood. And we do not get enough of the investigation here. Like did they go door to door asking everybody if they saw anything? We never hear that anybody saw anybody else. It middle of the day. It was a gorgeous day.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. No one saw anything. No one heard anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And the only person present is older brother Zachary, who's older by two years.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he says, Zach says he tried to give Gregory CPR and he did move the body. So he says almost immediately, when the authorities are on the scene, my DNA, my prints are going to be all over my brother. Because I try and I was like, that's like, wow. For a 14, 15 year old kid to know to say that.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree. The only counterpoint to that, and this comes later, but I'll say it here.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There were places where Zach did not have blood on him and they didn't find blood in the tap. So the. There was no evidence he had washed himself off yet. He didn't have blood in places that it was almost inconceivable. If he was stabbing 65 times, he didn't have blood in his face, he didn't have blood in his hair.

[Patrick Hines]

The killer would be absolutely covered in blood. Zachary is not.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He is. But not enough to the point that you can look at him and say, oh, this is open and shut.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because it's like he's got some blood on his clothes that's explained away by the fact that the EMT on the phone told him to move the body, lay him down flat. So he had to move him from where he was. Cause he was sort of slumped against the washing machine. So that. That explains some of the blood transfer. But, like, it'll be said later that, like, Zach would have blood in his hair, on his face, and he didn't. And they also know that he didn't clean up because they do eventually check all of the sinks, and there was no evidence that anybody had washed blood.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Off of their body or anything.

[Patrick Hines]

And so that, to me, like, if that fact weren't part of this, to me, it would be open and shut. But the fact that there's not enough blood on him and he didn't clean himself up is a tick in the he didn't do it column.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, it's. I agree. It's kind of like, wa. How could he not?

[Patrick Hines]

But then there would have been some stranger covered in blood running through the neighborhood blood print.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They would have left like a bloody trap. Honestly, like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to say it like that, but really, based on the scene that we see.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we know we've done enough of these to know that crazy things happen. Anything is possible. But, like, it doesn't make sense that it could have been anybody, but Zack. It just doesn't make sense.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And I say that knowing that it could be. But, like, right now, with all the facts we have, like, where's the blood covered, man who just killed this kid five seconds ago?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, of course, you know, the cops call the parents and they tell them in like, the bluntest way that, like, your younger son is dead and your older son is taken to the hospital. Oh, and by the way, we think he did it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And the way the parents recount these stories, I have to. There's no love lost between the parents and the cops, so.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, I mean, look, come on.

[Patrick Hines]

I hope that the parents were a little Gentler than that. But we're gonna learn that as soon as the parents make it clear that they. Zachary, they don't think they did this, they become like the public enemy of the police department of this town.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because Zach is being questioned immediately, which is also like not okay. Cops, not parents have to be there. Where's a lawyer? Like when they get like. It's clear that when sue the mom gets to the hospital that it's very clear that Zach is being treated as a suspect because the cops are talking to him and they shouldn't have been doing that.

[Patrick Hines]

They shouldn't have been talking to him. But it is completely understandable that he's being seen as a suspect. He was the only person there. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But if we're going to do it, let's do it right.

[Patrick Hines]

I couldn't agree more.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

More travel. Down girl.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. You don't have to worry. But I was all about like setting calendar alerts and alarms and reminders. No, no. Rocket Money has your back. And my favorite thing is that you can see all your subscriptions in one place. So you can see what is worth it to me. What's my budget looking like? Am I actually using this?

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

Just check your dashboard, that's all. So Amy is here, she's an attorney and she says Zach was the suspect from the moment the police arrived at the house. They were not an experienced police force and certainly this type of murder. And they came upon a 15 year old boy who was in the garage and had blood on his sweatshirt and was at home. He had opportunity, of course they zeroed in on him.

[Patrick Hines]

But she's the first one to say to us that this was a completely inexperienced police department. Yes, and we'll get more on that in a minute. But like, it is important to know this is a very small town police department. As far as we know, they've never handled a murder before. And like right from the beginning, they do not handle this well.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And now his parents are sitting there to camera and they're like, look, we know what this looks like, okay? But they both separately asked Zach if he had anything to do with this and he says, no, I never heard Greg. I love Greg. He says essentially the same exact thing to both parents separately. And then they never speak of it again.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm sure that the parents in the moment don't have all the facts right. They don't know that there was nobody else seen in the neighborhood. They don't know that there's no bloody trail of footprints running to the front door. You all of this stuff, but like in the moment, I guess, I mean, I guess you just take your kids like I didn't raise you to be a murderer. So I'm.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Do you want to lose another one at the same time? I mean, I really think, and I'm not saying that in a shady way, I think when whether it's consciously or not, it's like, well, Zach said he didn't do this and I'm not losing both of my sons within minutes of each other. So he didn't do this.

[Patrick Hines]

But you know me, I'd be the first one to turn Daisy in like I'm told.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Daisy in for anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, to Steve, sometimes it's the two of us against Steven. It's every man for himself in that House, of course. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But I'd love to hear a story one day where it's like, oh, Daisy took this thing, and I told her I totally ratted on her.

[Patrick Hines]

No, there's degrees of. I would turn. I'd be the first to turn my kid in. Like, I'd be the first to turn my kid in for murder. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, if Daisy. Like, if Daisy stole a candy bar from a grocery store, I'd make her take it back and apologize, of course. You know, but, you know, I'm not turning her in for having that extra marshmallow that Steve doesn't know about. We're starting World War Three in my house.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, that's free space, as we say. Cherry finger.

[Patrick Hines]

But I. Exactly. But I would 100% turn her in for murder. And I'm just thinking, like, in this moment, if I thought Daisy did this, I'd be like, I think you did this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, I completely understand why there's, like, a shift that happens where it's like, he said he didn't.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm not losing both of my kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And this is what it is. Especially when there are a lot of questions here. There just are.

[Patrick Hines]

I.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, they walked in and Zach was in the garage holding the weapon, totally doused. And it's not like that.

[Patrick Hines]

No. I think that Zach probably did it, but I do not think there's enough evidence to prove it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Can we have a quick dog appreciation minute? Absolutely. For Niles. Happy birthday, Niles. Niles turned 15 on the day of this filming. He was a mini schnauzer.

[Patrick Hines]

Tom, can we get some dog appreciation music for this, please? The fact of the matter is, I trust dogs more than I trust humans. There nothing like that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Dog love. I'll tell you, Niles, may you rest. You were the best boy, I'm sure.

[Patrick Hines]

Is he dead now?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, this came out years ago when he was 15.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I didn't know it came out years ago.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Came out years ago. And they filmed this in 20. Whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, no. Well, he was the last dog to know Zach.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So they got him three months before Zach went to prison.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Ron, the dad, absolutely loves dogs. They have, like, four of them. And he just says, like, many, many, many days. I am just so depressed. The one thing that does help me feel a little better is I'll lie down or sit down with the dogs all around me. You know, no negative thoughts or anything. And I'm serious when I say this. If we didn't have the. I'd be dead if we didn't have the dogs. I'd be dead. And I'm like, ron, I hear you.

[Patrick Hines]

What do you think the other dogs names are? They could be any schnauzer.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's the breed. Oh, so Niles is a mini schnauzer.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, oh, okay. I would say I'm like Bethany.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Bethany is a good one.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, can I tell you that I once met Aunt Jackie at the park and her dog's name is Colleen.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, to name your dog, like, Douglas Kevin.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like the best human name for a dog. Like George.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

George.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

George has to be. Be like. Like a big slobbery.

[Patrick Hines]

I thought you were gonna say a big slot.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, no, no. George seems to me like a bulldog.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

George is a perfect bulldog.

[Patrick Hines]

Slobbery. 100%.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Ron loves the dogs. The dog saved Ron's life. We love a little dog.

[Patrick Hines]

Of the dogs are the only people in the house Ron talks to. Like, we're gonna find out in a minute that obviously this whole thing has ruined him and Sue's marriage and. But they've stayed together because they're the only people who will ever understand what the other one has gone through.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they're also fighting for their son to get out of prison.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Amy, the lawyer says that because Zach' that Zach was innocent. She says, quote, they became enemies of the commonwealth, which is just.

[Patrick Hines]

Why do we have to do that? What gets lost here is that this kid was brutally murdered.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And these people are his parents. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. So Gregory has been murdered, and their son is in all this trouble, and there's, like, no empathy for the parents.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Seemingly no empathy for the parents at all for, like, what they must be going through in this moment.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so we learned that back in 1998. Of course, there's a ton of pressure to solve this crime quickly. The community is in an uproar. Everyone is terrified. People think there's, like, a murderer on the loose.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But Bryan Stevenson is here, and he's the creative director of the Equal Justice Initiative, and he says what we hear a million times, like, in our journey doing this podcast, pressure like this leads to wrongful convictions. It just does 100%, because the cops want to close the case even if they don't have the evidence. We see this all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Especially when it's a crime involving young children.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. But this is where I want more about the investigation, because I want to know, did you Go door to door. Were there witnesses? I don't think anybody saw anybody in the middle of the afternoon.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, the thing that we learn is that the cops had never seen a case like this. And they destroyed all the evidence at the scene. There was no county forensics team at the time. People were just tromping through the house. And then when they got to the investigation itself, actually collecting evidence. Footprint. A smear. They wanted to try luminol. Well, they'd never worked with luminol before.

[Patrick Hines]

They had to read the directions on.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

How to mix it. Everyone was in and out of the house. The police chief, the paramedics, the volunteer firefighters. They had to read the directions on the luminol bottle. They never used it before?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They were like, hey, does this look right? So anyone have a backup bottle in case this is my first luminol rodeo? Anyone have any? What do I do with this?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, a couple of things I gotta say here. We're being told this by a man named Rick Lee. He's the York Daily Record court reporter. He's smoking a cigarette during his interview. Did you see this smoke? Who described. Not since the earliest days of tco, when we were covering documentaries that were made, like, in the 80s.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Did we see people smoking during their interviews? Are you kidding me?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So they don't know what the hell they're doing. They're reading the directions on the back of the luminol.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing that makes me insane, the luminal, is that, like, they're luminoling the ground. We're being told that it's lighting up in the form of sock prints. Which Zachary was wearing. He was wearing socks. Right. We're told that the luminol lit up in the form of a sock. They went to photograph it because luminol apparently only lights up for 30 seconds, but they had the camera on the wrong shutter speed, so none of the pictures came out.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They came out black squares. Thanks.

[Patrick Hines]

So we have to just trust the cops that they looked like sock prints.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Believe me, that's all we have. Right. This guy saying, well, that's what I saw 100 years ago.

[Patrick Hines]

Amy, the attorney is saying, like, these cops were so unprepared for this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, a case this big, shouldn't the FBI be involved? Like, my God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, I guess on the scene, you're trying to get everything, like, immediately. Yeah. I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

This was news to me. That luminal only lights up for 30 seconds or whatever. And then, like, how hard.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Who told One of these hapless cops.

[Patrick Hines]

Told us it was in the documentary, but like, oh, well, oh, oh, I think it was Amy who told us. We like Amy, but like, even I can use a camera. Even I can use a camera.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's just, there's no excuse for. I just don't understand. Like, it's just.

[Patrick Hines]

I also feel like how is this evidence not thrown out if the luminal evidence was not properly photographed? How is anybody. We're just taking these cops words for it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, well, I don't think we ever talk about it really again. We get all these other experts to fight against each other, but.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh God. And Henry Lee's here. I don't need to see him ever again. I know, but. But it is used as one of the strikes against Zachary. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, Also though, so 12 hours later, 12 hours after the murder, police finding.

[Patrick Hines]

Bloody gloves and a tiny pen knife. Almost 12 hours after arriving at the crime scene, that penknife determined to be the murder weapon.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If you commit a violent crime and a murder. Yeah, I'm just going to go outside the house and bury my stuff in the backyard and take off. Who does that? The cops find bloody gloves and a pen knife, which they say is the murder weapon.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, once again, this makes me crazy because this means that in this 13 minute window, this killer killed Gregory brutally. And we'll see later, apparently chased him around the house, killed him. Zachary upstairs didn't hear any of it, then went into the back to the dogs.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

By the way, they have a house full of dogs.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. And then the killer went into the backyard where he dug up the tree, buried the murder weapon in the gloves, and then escaped into a public neighborhood in broad daylight. And nobody saw. Covered, Covered head to toe in blood. And nobody saw anything?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Nope.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't want to be a jerk. I'm not trying to be glib about this at all. If it wasn't Zachary, who was it?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I think that's a very good question. I think that's a very normal question to have, like, because I have the same one.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, if it wasn't him, then who did it?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But at the same time, there are a lot of things here where I'm like, well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing about this documentary too is I like, I'm watching the time tick by and I'm like, when are we going to get to the other suspect? When are we. We never do.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There are none.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, There are none.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's one idiot.

[Patrick Hines]

Which we are. Which. Which I almost can't talk about. But I know we have to. We'll get there eventually.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, not this. Because you're having the coffee anyway.

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Benzavalli]

The dot and not a second longer. So get to it. So Gregory was killed on a Friday.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

His parents picked out the casket on Sunday. Now that we are told, that same day, the police insist that the family goes down to the station to be shown a presentation about why their other son killed Gregory.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Ron, the dad, is saying, so the police intentionally sat us down when we were our most vulnerable. This sounds like something that would absolutely happen.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And it sounds like, to what end? Yeah, like, why would the cops be so cruel? I mean, there are a million reasons, but when you really, like, take a step back all these years later and think, like, you just wanted to tor. What, so that they wouldn't fight as hard for Zach or.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I mean, the thing about it is the cops are probably right. You know what I mean? Like, it was a mean way to do it. And I, like, I looked for other information today. I was like, because I don't want to come here based on this one documentary, which, by the way, is very pro. Zachary didn't do it. Where I'm like, I think he kind of did well. But, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't want to be like, I don't want to take this one source as bible. So I looked up other stuff and it was like, nope. Like, there's. There really is no other viable suspects.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It seems to be like an Occam's Razor thing where there are just gonna be unknowns that we can't fully know. But.

[Patrick Hines]

But it seems like he did it. And it's like, should the cops have been more sensitive? Yes. But if they're dealing with. I. I am not trying to defend the cop. I'm just trying to see why they might have done this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

If they think that they were right. And we get the parents in a vulnerable state, maybe they're More open to the evidence we're gonna show them, you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Know, because that leads to the conversation of if they're gonna.

[Patrick Hines]

What they did was a really shitty thing. I'm not defending what they did, but.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, it leads to the conversation of if the cops are gonna do whatever they can to put a 15 year old in prison for the rest of his. Of that conversation about how we treat children in the system.

[Patrick Hines]

But see, to me it's two different conversations. It's. Did he do it? I think he did. Should he have gone to prison for the rest of his life? I don't think so, but, but it's two different systems, right? Like it's like the, it's the people who got to get the guy and then the people who sentenced the guy, the people got to get the guy don't have anything to do with that part of it. Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But then it's like, that's what I meant earlier when it's like we're just swimming through all these different topics and yeah, none of them are fully.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because then the conversation could be. Get an expert to be like, see how the cops treated the parents. It all relates. It's a domino effect. It's all affecting the. That this kid or kids are going to be treated as adults and get sent to prison for the rest of their lives because we got to get the guy. Now because of the pressure, it's all, everything affects the other thing.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's almost a more compelling argument to have the conversation about like he probably did this, got convicted of it, and now what? Right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Why? How?

[Patrick Hines]

But, but even more than that, should a 14 year old be sentenced to die in prison, you know, in 60 years at the age of 14, even if he did the heinous crime, you know, that's that. That should be the conversation we're.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So the cops are accusing Zachary of killing his brother. They're doing the good cop, bad cop thing. There's nothing that can change their minds. They have like, this is the kid. There's a lot of pressure on this case.

[Patrick Hines]

And sue, even sue the mom, says.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The police had the crime scene tape off for less than 12 hours. So that means they've already made their mind up. But you would still have secured the place where someone killed our child so.

[Patrick Hines]

They weren't looking at anybody else. And now once again, I would like to, to know what else they did. Like if there was nobody else to look at, then there's nobody else to look at.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like what, if anything, did you do?

[Patrick Hines]

Right to.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Maybe.

[Patrick Hines]

But I mean, it's like we never hear of, like in the time that this crime happened, it's not like it could have been this guy, this serial killer was out and stalking people. Like in all of these other cases that we cover, where the cops get tunnel vision, there's other people to look at. And I just want to know, were there other people to look at that the cops didn't look at? Cuz if there were, we never hear about that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'd even take some kind of evidence that proves that no one else could have been in the house because the key was turned a certain way.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, but the thing is, we learned that Zachary stayed home sick and he hung the key on the outside of the door for Zach to be able to unlock the door and come in. So that's more evidence that, like, somebody could have gotten into the house quietly because the key was hanging on the doorknob on the outside. So if. If somebody came in to kill Gregory, it would not have been a breaking and entering. He would have just used the key and walked in and waited. It was hung on the doorknob.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Where was the key after the murder?

[Patrick Hines]

That we don't know. I.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's what I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, right, right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Is it in Zach's hand? Is it in Gregory's hand? Is it on the floor?

[Patrick Hines]

We're to believe that the. Well, because if you're the killer, I guess you would probably unlock the door and then put the key back on the doorknob so nobody thinks anything is wrong.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But then what do you do? There's a kid sleeping upstairs. There's a very vulnerable child sleeping upstairs for you to kill. I'm sorry, I'm thinking like the.

[Patrick Hines]

But if you're the killer, you may not know. You may be expecting both kids to be getting off the bus just now. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. So are there coaches we should be looking at? Are there people that would be stalking these boys?

[Patrick Hines]

I just don't think this is what happened.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's. I think that's why the cops are handling this poorly. But I think this is a type of conversation that was having saying, what are we going to.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, another thing we get to later that I'll say now is that we're on a walk with Ron and Sue when they see one of their neighbors who they hate.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Hate.

[Patrick Hines]

And they hate this guy because this guy didn't say anything to the cops for four years after the murder and then went to the cops to say, I was out in the neighborhood all day long. That day. And I saw nothing strange. There was no weird people in the neighborhood. There was no guy lurking about. Like, I was out and about and I didn't see anything weird. So, like, I'm sorry to say it, Ron, but like, this guy has no reason to lie to the cops four years after the crime, you know, so it's just kind of like there isn't anybody else for the cops to be looking at, it seems to me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And at the same time, they can be handling this shittily.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Because once again, because of the way they handled it, I don't think there was enough evidence to convict this kid.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. You know, because. So we're at the. A funeral. Hundreds of people attend this funeral.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But at the same time, the rumors are starting because like, these are young kids. So it's like teenagers. And everyone's brother and sister and all your classmates and the newspapers, the neighbors and everyone is like, can you believe that Whitman kid killed his brother? Like that's what. In this neighborhood, everyone knows. Everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Nobody saw anything. They just know this. The 15 year old kid, which is like a big news story to these people because they're like, he's in my English class.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

My sister went, whatever. Like, it's so close to. For everyone.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And the rumors are starting. But now, again, it goes from very quickly, I can't believe this happened to. Well, you know, I never liked that Zachary.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or he did always have a temper or, you know, he has a drug problem.

[Patrick Hines]

And somebody, some unnamed person said two.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Weeks before his death, police say Gregory Whitman told a friend he was afraid of his brother Zachary because of his drug use. Gregory threatened to tell police about Zachary's drug problem. Rumor starts right away. Zach's on drugs. Tested them for every drug there was, and no, Zach had no type of drugs in his body.

[Patrick Hines]

Then he came up negative for everything.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Everything. So people are just talking, they're talking a lot and saying absolutely nothing.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and so Bryan Stevenson is back. He's the executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative. And he's saying once you advance the politics of fear and anger, people will tolerate things that they wouldn't otherwise tolerate. So the fact that this kid was probably questioned without a lawyer. Yeah, but you know what? He's got a drug problem, he gets angry and his brother was scared.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So we need to villainize Zachary to get the conviction.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's what he's saying. Because he has, he says this thing, he says, fear and anger are the essential ingredients of injustice and oppression. Yeah, and he's absolutely right. So what we learned, though, is, like, the press or whoever needed to turn Zachary into someone that everyone could hate so that we can get this conviction. And then we learned that 13 states have no minimum age for trying a child as an adult. You can be eight.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, that is just barbaric. That is barbaric. Well, the judge is here, Judge John C. Euler, who was the judge for this case. He tells us if a child charged with murder, murder is excluded from the juvenile act, meaning that, like, there must be some sort of juvenile act that protects minors or whatever, but murder is excluded from that. So if you charge a kid with murder, he's in Pennsylvania, he's automatically tried as an adult.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, because. Yeah, because they're talking about, like, should Zachary be tried as an adult or as a child? And I'm like, that's so crazy, because he is a child.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so 15.

[Patrick Hines]

I think what they're saying, this was a little bit hard to follow, but he had a whole bunch of psychiatric evaluations done by the prosecution and by the defense. And I think they were trying to say that if they. Anything that would have made him vulnerable, any sort of mental illness or whatever, they may have tried him as a child, but because he didn't have any of those vulnerabilities, they decided to charge him as an adult.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're going to charge the child as an adult.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, but he's literally. He's not a child.

[Patrick Hines]

And let me go on the record and say, like, if he did it, what he did is awful and horrible and he should have the book thrown at him in juvenile court. He's 14 years old.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, it just proves that this whole, like, rehabilitation thing is a mockery and it's bullshit.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because either you want. You want to get the conviction and you want to throw this kid away forever, or you want to rehabilitate people and get to the bottom of what happened and help people having a mental health crisis that caused them to kill their brother when they're 15.

[Patrick Hines]

And I think that. And also, at the very least, you want to find out if this kid is going to be. If he did it, is he a danger to others? You know what I mean? But it doesn't seem that anybody has any interest in actually getting to the bottom of any of that stuff that we say that we care about.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And we. All right, because there's. How many conversations have we had on the show or off mic or just in where it's like, what happens Is there something that could have happened? Could we, like, studied the brain as it's still developing to find out and, like, to throw this kid away in prison forever? Like, what about, like, why can't we study this to see, like, why can't we learn from this in some way?

[Patrick Hines]

If Zachary did do this, this was an incredibly violent act.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not saying that he ever should have gotten out of prison, I guess.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, I think that we should have treated a child like a child. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

A few questions at least.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So back at home with the Whitmans, it's just like their lives were destroyed in an instant, really.

[Patrick Hines]

And they are torturing themselves. Like, they stay in the house where the kids grow up. I think for a reason that is pretty valid, sue is saying, I've held.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Her on the house because I wanted the jury to come to the house. If there's going to be a new trial, we don't know, then we stay in the house. If someone would come to the house and see what they said Zach did in the time period, it's impossible.

[Patrick Hines]

We have to have the house in order to be able to do that. The blood spatter marks are still on the wall. They've never taken them down because they need them to be there to show a future potential jury, which, as dark and horrible as that is, it's very smart on their part, I think.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, it's just very. For me, as a viewer, it's unsettling to see sue, like, lay down where Gregory was laying down in the laund.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. It's like the staircase. It's like how, like the Peterson, Michael Peterson walked up and down the staircase where his wife died. You know what I mean? And they just stayed living in that house. And like, in the Peterson case, they didn't clean up the scene and they were living in that house, like. But she was saying, you can't see the blood on the wall very well because of the wallpaper, but, like. But it's there. But it's there, and they're not cleaning it up.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's hard because we see sue, like, in Gregory's room and smelling his cologne and his soccer jersey and. And I think when something like this tragedy happens to give. I can't leave the house. That's what I have of my son. Yeah, this is his room. Someone else can't live in his room. That's my kid.

[Patrick Hines]

And also the other son, like, this is my other living son's home that maybe someday, hopefully, he'll Come home to.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That they're fighting for.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, but, like, this is not the only way that the parents have consigned themselves to this really miserable existence. Because Ron. They're sitting on the couch next to each other, and Ron is saying, susan, my.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Our relationship has really been pretty much destroyed. We cope differently. It leads to a lot of arguments, which makes us, in a lot of ways, roommates more than husband and wife. We have one thing in mind and one thing only, to help our son.

[Patrick Hines]

Which makes us, in lots of ways, roommates more than husband and wife.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

That is fucking awful. It's awful because it's not just that they're not, like, in a loving marriage anymore. It's that, like, when the cameras aren't on, they're at each other.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're at each other. How could they not be?

[Patrick Hines]

Look, I'll never know what they've been through, but I just want happiness for them. You know what I mean? They feel so stuck in the. In the darkness, but.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, because they're focusing on helping Zach, and so that becomes everything. And it's a really dark place to be.

[Patrick Hines]

But it is interesting that, like, a lot of couples, you know, who, like, lose kids, end up breaking up. Like, they. Like, they're. Imagine what, like, being in a loving marriage might do for one of them. You know what I mean? Might help them out of the dark. It doesn't mean they don't. It doesn't mean they stop being. I just. I just want them to be happy. We're gonna see Ron in so many, like, showing us all the medication he's on and throwing things around the house and yelling at the coffee pot, and it's just like, girl, I thank you for the access. Like, I think this is an important story to be told, but I don't want them living in this sadness all the time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But, like, that's where they are. I know. And the thing that is so crazy is that Zachary was on house arrest for four and a half years. And sue says, oh, the reasons for this are two. Twofold. One, they were building their case against him, but two, they wanted him to look older when he went to trial, so he'll be 20 instead of 15. So we see this all the time, like, the Robert Durst where it's like, oh, how could that decrepit old man do all the. That decrepit old man did it 40 decades ago. 40 years ago, exactly. So they're trying to do almost the reverse with Zachary.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And the other thing that they say about, like, building the case. Sue says they were looking for a motive, which they could never find. You know, and, like, that is really interesting to me. You know, I was reading a little bit about the case, and there was the idea that Zach was really mad at Greg because he hung up on Zachary's girlfriend. That's like the one thing I read that would be like, a motive. I will never. If Zachary did this, I will never know why. We'll never understand it. No, but the parents spend so much time in this documentary telling us how close the kids were, how they showing us a million pictures. And like, I. I don't think two things can't be true here. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Cause the parents are really trying to say, like, they fought like brothers, but they really loved each other. Like, how could someone with no history of violence or aggression or hatred or anything suddenly truly horrifying thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Because it's not like, if Zach did this, he stabbed him one or two times in a fit of rage. He stabbed him 62 times in the neck. He. He decapitated his brother if he did this. So, like, you know, why. Where did that come from?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Where did that come from?

[Patrick Hines]

You know, sue goes to pains to tell us that living with him for 5 years on house arrest, he was very bright.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But he also was kind and gentle. I spent thousands of hours with him over the course of five years. I never saw him get angry.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know, Sue.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Kids get mad. It's okay for him to, like, yell sometimes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right, Right, right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. We gotta say yeah. Because, I mean, one of his friends is here. She's talking to us in front of the anchorman. Bobbleheads. She's got the whole news team.

[Patrick Hines]

Can we go into this for about 15 minutes? Because I was watching. Her name is Terry, and she's sitting in front of the bobbleheads. I did not know what they were at first. All I saw was the cowboy hat. I thought it was George W. Bush.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, it's the whole Channel 5 news team or whatever it was.

[Patrick Hines]

Only when I had to take a screenshot and then zoom in. Cause I saw the cowboy hat and the blonde lady.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm like a Corning stone.

[Patrick Hines]

I thought she had a bobblehead of George W. Bush and like, Ann Coulter.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Real dark one.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Can you imagine?

[Patrick Hines]

And then I zoomed in and I was like, oh, that's Christina Applegate. I was so.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I'm veronica Corningstone. Tits McGee is off tonight.

[Patrick Hines]

I just went on a real Journey with it. And then I was really proud of myself for figuring out that it was the anchorman team.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Great. The whole news team is there. But what she's saying is also something very valid, where it's like sue is saying, like, well, he wasn't violent at all. And the friends were like, no, but he was withdrawn and depressed. And it's like, well, what other option is there? He can't go outside. Everyone thinks he's a murderer. No one in the neighborhood wants him. Also, his brother was murdered in that house. Also, he's awaiting trial. Of course he's withdrawn and depressed.

[Patrick Hines]

And imagine either way, whether he did it or didn't do it. What a horrible fucking, like, house of horrors to be stuck in. Of course, you know, if he did it and he's remorseful, he's reliving it every minute of his life. And if he didn't do it, he has to imagine what happened there. I'm sorry, but, like, blood spatter still on the walls because mom won't clean it up because the jury might come someday, right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, Sue, I don't really care about the story that he was too. He didn't want to kill a spider. Someone else had to do it. And he's not violent. But to be honest about what he's going through, and I think there's, like, a little bit of a lack of emotional honesty happening here.

[Patrick Hines]

The parents are so all in on his innocence that he has to be a saint. Not only did he not do this, he couldn't possibly. Our saintly son could never do any.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But then everyone. Now we're losing Gregory.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because then who did?

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And what happened to Gregory? Yes, because what happened to him, as far as we know, is a horrifyingly tragic, violent thing. So who did it?

[Patrick Hines]

And so this is where I have all in my notes over and over and over again. Where is your private investigator for all of these years? Where is your private investigator? Digging up every fucking crazy man in the neighborhood. Every story, talking to every. Like, it doesn't seem at one point, the dad says to us, like, if you come visit us once a month, you probably would think that we are never working on the case because there's not really much to do, girl. The. There is, like, be researching every single person that got out of prison in your area around the time that Gregory was like, dude, like, give me other names. Give me other people. It was broad daylight. The person would have been covered in blood. He took the time to bury the murder weapon in your backyard. And then vanished. And nobody saw him or heard anything. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Travel down, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Helix is back. Look, do you ever just wake up? Great. Grateful for your Helix mattress?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I do. And I think about it all day long. Not because I'm tired. Yes, I had a very restful sleep.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, mattress. But I just can't wait to snuggle in bed.

[Patrick Hines]

The reason I love it, I spent so many years sleeping on mattress I knew weren't right for me and I knew I wasn't sleeping well. So when you take the Helix sleep quiz, it takes two minutes and you, like, fill in your legs, but also, like, your body type and stuff. And you know you're being matched to a mattress that is actually right for your body, that is going to, like, make you the most comfortable possible and make your sleep the best ever.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And if you sleep in bed with someone, they fill out their preferences in the quiz, too. So Mike and I got the Midnight Lux, which we love. We've had it for years, and it really fit our needs. Like, I sort of am a tosser and Turner. I sleep hot.

[Patrick Hines]

For me and Steve, it was like I need a firm mattress and he needs something not quite as firm. And somehow they were able to find the perfect happy medium. And let me tell you, I was ready to send that mattress back when it came if it wasn't right for me. And it was absolutely perfect, weirdly, for both of us.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Also, you know who loves it? Fiona. She takes herself to bed. She curls up, she has her spots. She loves bedtime so much. And I'm telling you, part of it has to be the Helix.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, golden now lives in our bed too, so. And TikTok is yelling at me about it. Whatever.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Shut up. Go to helixsleep.comtco for 27% off site wide and two free dream pillows with mattress purchase.

[Patrick Hines]

That's helixsleep.comtco For 27% off site wide plus two free dream pillows with mattress Purchase.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He felixsleep.comtco Go get your mattress on. It's so comfortable.

[Patrick Hines]

It is, Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I cannot stress it enough.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Rick Lee, the reporter, is telling us, like, Zachary was on house arrest for four and a half years. So the trial kept being delayed over and over again, and a lot of it had to do with the evidence. So, for example, Zach's sweatpants.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He was wearing them at the time of the murder, and they ended up getting, quote, tossed as evidence. So the prosecution had to go through a series of appeals to try to get the sweatpants. Back in.

[Patrick Hines]

But they never did.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then they never did. And we don't know why. Like, what's the deal with the sweat pants? What are we looking for? Why are they so valuable to this case? Why were they tossed? What's going on?

[Patrick Hines]

I will say I want to give the judge, Judge McLaughlin, A lot of credit here because he knew that Zach couldn't get a fair trial with the members of his own community. So he's busing in jurors for. From an hour and a half away.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Which I thought was pretty remarkable.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. That's a three hour bus ride, round trip, everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's also, like, it was a fair trial. You know what I mean? It was like they were trying to do the right thing by this case.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. I mean, well, okay, so it's May 7, 2003, the first day of trial. Zach is 20. Everyone keeps saying. Saying how he looks like a man. And I'm like, I disagree.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, they did the thing that they are gonna do where they put him in a suit five times too big. So he looks like Liz Lemon's agent. And he's. He is a very small statured person. Anyway. He does look very young. He looks older than he would have if he had gone to trial when they arrested him.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

35.

[Patrick Hines]

He doesn't look 35.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And again, like, this is a media circus because the case has been talked about for five years, and everyone knows someone connected to the Whitmans. Either you played sports with them or your sister was in the class or whatever. And it's a small town, so a resident, one of the residents, like one of the townspeople, as we say, says that 98% of the people. This is guessing. This isn't, like, actual scientific research, but the resident is like. So basically, 98% of us thought he was guilty before the trial happened. 2% thought he didn't do it, but, like, didn't know anything about the case or, like, what, Weren't paying attention.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So the prosecution is going for murder in the first degree, which is life without parole.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they're saying with this many stab wounds, with this kind of assault, that.

[Patrick Hines]

This was going to be a premeditated and intentional murder.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This was the specific intent to kill. There was a specific intent to kill, and I don't know about that.

[Patrick Hines]

I just don't know what the motive would have been.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean, to me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If I'm guessing and speculating wildly, a la Joan Calimezzo.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I would think that it wasn't premeditated that someone snapped and something horrible happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. I agree.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or could you say he. Why did you think he faked sick to stay home from school so that he could wait for his brother while his mom was at work?

[Patrick Hines]

I guess, I guess.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But like, again, why?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, the only thing I can think of if Zach did this was that he intended to hurt his brother. It got out of control and now I have to make it look like a crazed madman came in here and did something insane. Maybe like that's all like, because nobody would ever think I would ever go this crazy. You know, I mean.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So the defense is going for 100% acquittal. They were never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to take the deal. And I've read in other things that I googled today, like other doc, the Whitman's were very. My son is not going to plead out. They're not taking any deals. It's like that's. They are going 100%.

[Patrick Hines]

And that never works, by the way.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It never works.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? Like, that never, ever works.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So here's the story told a trial. Zach was homesick that day. What I thought was interesting, and maybe like, this isn't anything but it was weird to me that the parents never told us that Zach was homesick, but everyone else does. And because the parents never also once said, like, he was so sick with the flu, like physically, he couldn't do this because earlier sue says the boys were supposed to call me at three and they never did. Yeah, she doesn't say. Well, Zach was home sick and so I was waiting for Gregory. Like it's weird that she didn't mention that part. It's probably nothing. It's probably a victim of the editing and storytelling. But it was weird to me that like, sue wasn't talking about the fact that Zachary was homesick that night.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, what, what, what boggles my mind about this whole timeline is that Zachary doesn't come downstairs until Gregory is dead. And like we're gonna get this what the prosecution thinks happened. And if what, what happened wasn't done by Zachary, then Zachary somehow slept through or hear a crazed madman chasing his brother through the house for several minutes. Just downstairs. Yeah. So the prosecution says Zachary encountered Greg in the hallway. So like Greg opens the door, Zach is on him right away. There's a scuffle right there. There's a blood trail back through the house. Based on the court proceedings, he starts stabbing Greg in the back of the head.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And none of the stab wounds go.

[Patrick Hines]

Below because he's got his backpack on at the time. And Greg jumps up, throws his backpack off, and runs to the front door. So Greg throws off the backpack and tries to run to the front door. We can see a bloody handprint next to the front door. And then a bloody handprint on the doorknob while he's trying to open the door.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's, like, trying to, like, brace himself and protect himself and fight off his brother. Holding onto the wall while trying to open the door.

[Patrick Hines]

While trying to open the door. But Zack is on him too quickly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he can't open the door because Zack. There's no room for Zachary to open because Zack is behind him.

[Patrick Hines]

Ye. Yeah. So Gregory then turns to his right and runs to the dining room. At this point, there's a phone call. We're told by the prosecution there's a.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Girl who would call Gregory every single day after school. Her name is Aaron.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Today she called.

[Patrick Hines]

And according to the timeline of the prosecution, she calls mid struggle.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And it, like, rings a few times. Someone picks up the phone, doesn't say anything, and hangs it up. Yes, the state. This is all the state's theory, by the way. Yes, yes. State continues. Greg is running through the living room, jumps over. Over the dog gate. The dogs are nowhere to be found. They're not barking. There are no paw prints anywhere. Like, we don't know where they were. Maybe. I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

And sue will point out later that this would be impossible because according to the state's own timeline, and I'm sorry, this is really graphic. So if kids are listening, please send them to the other room.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is not a good episode for kids.

[Patrick Hines]

This is not a good episode for kids. Like, he's done so much damage to Greg's neck already that his neck would be basically. His head would be, like, falling off his body. He couldn't jump over the dog gate.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He probably couldn't be running then either.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So then he runs. Gregory runs, runs into the laundry room, being chased by his brother Zach, and gets out by way of the garage door. Yes, because there's a bloody fingerprint that the prosecution says is Zachary's. It's, like, above Greg's bloody fingerprint.

[Patrick Hines]

But he was wearing gloves. It's a glove print, so it's not a fingerprint.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Otherwise, the gloves that were buried in the backyard.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

What they're saying is that Zachary was holding the door shut so that Greg couldn't get out. Like, effectively trapping his brother.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. So then, like, right at this moment, the girl calls again. Aaron calls again. Apparently this little girl calls again. Zach answered the phone and said, Greg's not home yet. Call back in a little while. So according to the state's own theory, he's speaking to her mid murder. It's sounding normal, Right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Zachary then, according to the state, does the following. Leaves the laundry room where he has trapped and effectively killed his brother.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Goes through the den, goes outside, down the steps, around the gazebo. He digs a hole under a tree next to the family's wooden porch. Buries the gloves, buries the knife.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I believe that happened.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I believe that part happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I mean, there is no evidence that anybody else was in that house.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, and so to me, it seems like Zack did this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And that bloody footprint they found, which, again, the sock print that we only have the word of the cops to go on because they couldn't take the stupid picture. Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like the gang couldn't shoot straight or whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That footprint, they say, was leading to the tree where the gloves and the knife were buried.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Now, then they say Zach picks up the portable phone and goes out to the garage and calls 91 1. It's now 3:17. Now it's been like six minutes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like. Like Greg walked in the door, I think, at 3:11.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they're due to call their mother in three minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So on the 911 call, Zach says, I didn't hear a bang. I heard suffering, almost. It was like a wrestling sound. So Zachary says that that word to me is important. I heard suffering. It was like a wrestling sound. Then he just starts screaming. Zachary is screaming. I came down and he's lying here. I can't see him. He's gone. He's gone. Like screeching and screaming. It's horrifying.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we just learn again that, like, when the paramedics get there, Gregory is found in the laundry room with an excess of 60 stab wounds. His neck was completely severed. And the judge says to us it was an extraordinarily bloody, horrifying murder. Make it make sense.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And the thing about the blood, too, is that there is a lot of blood all over Zach's clothes. It's. Is it? As much as some people, for lack of a better term, might want for some definitive answer, not really, but all the experts are saying it's from different directions. Like a lot of the blood is like drops or like spatter or. Not like he stepped in blood, but that maybe the blood came off of him while he's stabbing somebody.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and also they're saying that. That he would have cut his carotid artery, which would have been a spurt. It would have been like a. For lack of a better term, like a fountain.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And when we see photos of some of Zachary's clothing, like, you see that.

[Patrick Hines]

There'S, like, there is, but it's not in his hair. It's not in his face.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's not under his nails.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not under his nail. Like, so, like right there. It's like, how could he have done this?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. Because people are saying, like. Like one side of the argument is, oh, well, of course he's covered in blood. He was hugging his brother. He was trying to give him cpr. But then the other side of it is like. Right. But you don't get, like. Like, like someone did this with their hands, you know, like finger painting. That's not how you get that kind either. So it's just people are like.

[Patrick Hines]

And once again, we know that there was nobody cleaned up. There was no blood found in any of the same trait. Like. Like, it's not like he kill all over himself and then washed up before the cops got there.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, that bloody sock print that was leading to the tree where the knives.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Where the knife and the gloves were found, the defense is saying. Hold on a second.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If Zachary went outside to bury everything, he had to come back inside.

[Patrick Hines]

And we know that from the condition of those gloves, when they found them, they had been drenched in blood. So how do you get back in and not leave any blood on an entry service?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Where are all the footprints for that?

[Patrick Hines]

And the door. So the bloody glove. The glove that the killer was wearing was drenched in blood, which means his hands would have been drenched in blood. So when he went to reopen the door, there would have been blood everywhere.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Everywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

But there wasn't. There wasn't any blood. So, like, Zachary didn't have that kind of blood on him. And even if he did kill him, he somehow was able to not get blood all over him, which seems. Because remember the timeline, this all happens in about seven minutes. And the cops are there, like, two minutes later. Gregory's body is still warm when the cops get there. Nobody had any time to clean anything up.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And, like, no one's that good at cleaning it up. There would have been a little something.

[Patrick Hines]

But I'm also like, if Zachary's not the killer, it's not like the killer killed Gregory and then ran out the front door. He had to go out the Back door, dig up a hole by the tree, bury the stuff, and then somehow escape. He still had to go back into the house to get out. Unless he. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what their backyard looked like. He hopped a fence or something. But, like, there would still be blood everywhere, and you would have heard the guy. You know what I mean? Like, Zachary doesn't say, I heard somebody down there. You know what I mean? Mean it like, there's no. Somebody would have seen something. There would have been a trail of blood leading us wherever the killer went.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It doesn't make any sense.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It doesn't make any sense at all. Or is it one of those situations where, like, we'll never know the truth and there are all these different variables that no one knows about because they weren't there? And now we're just trying to, like, backwards confirmation bias based on. Or maybe, I don't know. But, like, who else?

[Patrick Hines]

The two things I can't get past. I can't get past that. Nobody saw anybody. And the one neighbor who said he was out in the neighborhood or heard anything. Like, the one neighbor who said he was out and about all day didn't see anybody weird in the neighborhood. Everything was normal. There was no.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Dogs aren't making a peep.

[Patrick Hines]

Nope. So. So that is like, a big check mark in the. Zachary did this. But then Zachary doesn't have any blood on his face, in his hair, on his hands. He didn't leave any blood on the door getting back in. He didn't clean up. We know he didn't clean himself up. So that's a big check mark in the heat. In the he didn't do it column.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And now the defense is coming for luminol, just in general, just as, like, an idea. But they're saying the cops didn't know how to use it. True.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes. It tests for blood, but it also lights up for other substances.

[Patrick Hines]

We know that, like, bleach is a thing that luminol reacts to. So, like, what's the one thing people use to clean up blood? Bleach.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. You know, but then if you didn't clean up. But the point is, they're saying, like, this whole story is full of holes. Nothing is adding up.

[Patrick Hines]

Because what the defense is saying here is that the luminol was really reacting near the tree where the weapon was found, because that's where the hot tub is. And the luminol was reacting to the chemicals from the hot tub because the mom used the hot tub Every day.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Get it?

[Patrick Hines]

Get it, Sue. It was like her footprints that they were reacting to, you know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. Now, the person who tells us this and we'll get back to him is Jeff Stein, the private eye. So they eventually hire a private eye and he just kind of popped in here. We'll get back to him. Yes, because problematic. Henry Lee has to be here for two seconds.

[Patrick Hines]

As soon as I saw Henry Lee, my eyes rolled into the back of my head. I was like, what are we doing? Because this is the thing that we always encounter. Henry Lee is here for the defense. He did not testify for the defense, but he's speaking on behalf of the defense and he's just saying one of.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The major defect of those interpretation, because the sweatshirt was exam a flat, you cannot just by looking at reach a conclusion. If you look at a pattern like.

[Patrick Hines]

My arm doing this. So that's why this area has no blood.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The interpretation of the direction could be wrong. He's here to once again, as Henry Lee is wont to do, just be like, it could really go either way.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. And that's the thing about these hedges. I know. And that's the thing about these experts. You got one expert on the prosecution saying one thing, one expert on the defense saying the other, and it's all a wash in the end. It doesn't mean anything.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, what about the girl who always calls the house? Aaron?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We learned that the time between her calling and the 911 call is five minutes. So first Zach says, oh, you know, he's not home. Call back later, Gregory's not home. Then he's upstairs hearing all the noises of suffering and then all of this happened and then he could all in five minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

So he was awake. Right. So like if he answered the call and Greg isn't home yet, then he was awake when Greg was being murdered downstairs.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Now the mom is going to say later, and this is an important thing to note. Whoever attacked Gregory in the hallway, once again, this is very violent trigger warning. They probably cut his windpipe, so he wasn't able to scream. So any sounds that were being heard downstairs were just sounds of people falling or running or being chased or whatever because Gregory couldn't make audible noises.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Also though, because the murder was so violent and he was stabbed 68 times. When Aaron testifies at trial, she says, I called at 3:15. I spoke to Zachary for a couple of minutes. He sounded the same. Nothing sounded weird. So the defense is saying, how would you not sound weird? How would you not at least be out of breath. You're chasing and murdering your brother all around the house.

[Patrick Hines]

They say based on the time of her call, in doing the reverse math, she had to either interrupt him in.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The middle of killing him or catch.

[Patrick Hines]

Him right at the very tail end of doing the deed.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now how does a 15 year old.

[Patrick Hines]

Kid that just practically decapitated his poor brother sound normal? Explain to me how that happened. So, like, she spoke to him in a time where he just sounded normal. And they're saying 60 stab wounds would be exhausting.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know, would be really, really helpful if we had the phone records so we could find out the time. But guess what, everyone, we don't. They are, quote, unavailable. And we don't know why it was.

[Patrick Hines]

The defense attorney decided he did not need the phone records. He didn't get them because he said, as long as I had Aaron, I didn't need them. Now this is really suspicious to me. I wonder if the defense attorney something in these phone records that does not line up with this story. My thinking was, Aaron, are we remembering the same day? Girl, do you remember a day where you. It was the day before or two days before. Like, is that what the phone records show? And that's why the defense attorney didn't get them. The family is really pissed off that their own defense attorney did not get these records. The defense attorney saying, I didn't need them, I didn't want them, they mean nothing to me. I think he knows more. I think if we could get those records, they would show us something that is not good to Zachary's.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's a good point. Now here's something though. Their first defense lawyer got very sick and couldn't continue the case.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so that's when the Whitmans hired David McLaughlin and Sue the mom is like, big mistake. Huge. And I'm like, dave is here with us, girl. He's in the dock. Does he know that they hate him?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We gotta pause here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I got a big, big, major, major, major news story.

[Patrick Hines]

A revelation.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Remember their first lawyer got too sick and couldn't continue.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Do you know who that first lawyer was?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Christina Gutierrez.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. I knew it. Right before you were about to say it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sarah Koenig talks about this and even interviews the Whitman in episode 10 of season one of Sierra.

[Patrick Hines]

I remember this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Christina Gutierrez was in a severe health decline and wasn't telling anyone, essentially. So she wasn't filing briefs for the Whitmans. Sue Whitman. You hear her voice?

[Patrick Hines]

I remember this.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They'd have to go down at the very last minute and file things themselves. Christina Gutierrez, would she tell them she'd be working with all these experts and then the Whitmans would call the person and they'd be like, I haven't spoken to her in two years. What are you talking about?

[Patrick Hines]

I remember this whole storyline in Serial. They were giving her all this money and they got nothing for it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And everyone was like, yep, that's how she is. Like, everyone kind of knew that she was flaky and she wasn't doing anything. So they, according to sue, like, that's what. So their first attorney, who is Christina Gutierrez.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God, it's Baltimore.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of course, got so sick she couldn't do anything or file any briefs or whatever. And then they hired this David McLaughlin guy who they also hated.

[Patrick Hines]

So the other reason. That's a wild story. Good for you, G.P.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Thanks.

[Patrick Hines]

You're so fucking good at this. The reason they also hate McLaughlin is because he didn't want witnesses. And sue says he thought he knew everything about blood spatter. He knew everything about the crime scene. He knew everything about everything and didn't want expert witnesses. And she's saying, think about it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So now you're at a trial and you have an attorney who has no experts. Okay, so now you're a juror and you've got the state that's got experts and you've got the defense that has nothing. What would you do as a juror? I would think, well, you know what? Maybe. Maybe the defense couldn't get any experts. That's not true.

[Patrick Hines]

You're automatically going to think the defense can't get anybody to agree with them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's an excellent point.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, but like, how did the defense attorney not know that?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. I think there's a lot happening here.

[Patrick Hines]

I want those phone records.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The phone records. And I think there's also something to be said for the fact that the Whitman's were. It's 100% innocence or nothing at all.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I think that. I don't know, I've read a few things today, but I wonder if maybe they were a little more open to like, Sue Whitman wrote like an open letter when they had like their website about this, saying that, you know, well, if my son pleaded to something he didn't do, he would have been out when he was 21. But we don't believe in doing that. And I just wonder. I just wonder if it was a difficult case for everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's all I'm saying, I'm not defending anyone. I don't know what the lawyer did. That really sucked. Get a fucking expert. It's total one.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone knows here to testify for you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

God damn it. But, like, I don't know about that, but it does seem like there's a lot that. Like, if we're going to do. Like I say, I ask this so often.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If we're going to do this, can we do it? If we're here to talk about this story, can we hear a little bit more about the phone records? Exactly. Or hear about.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, well, because my. My question is now, like, sue, can you get the phone records? Like, are the phone records gone? Is it too late now? Like. Like those phone records are. Well, that's what I'm saying. Maybe he's keeping them from the family for a reason. Maybe, you know, maybe.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's the day of the verdict, May 21, 2003. The jury deliberated for 11 hours, and Zachary was found guilty. And he will serve a life sentence without parole. So 15 years after the murder, it's 2013, and they're doing this press conference and they're inviting everyone who covered the story originally, like, Taylor inviting everyone who talks shit about her to the reptoire. Best opening ever. But they're they're kind of like they're trying to relaunch the investigation. They 100% believe their son's innocence. They're trying to use the press in their favor this time around. Because the press was awful to them the first time around.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So they set up a tip line because they claim that the cops ever did this back in the day, but we said they did.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I took a screenshot of it. I could show it to you. Like, I'm going to show it to you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Show it to me.

[Patrick Hines]

From an article that was published before Zachary was arrested. Like, clear as day.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God. It has its own little box.

[Patrick Hines]

And I, like, read the article to make sure. Like, wait, when was this written? It's like, from before Zachary was arrested.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Wow. If you have any information about the Gregory Whitman murder, called the Southern Regional Police Department at 235394.

[Patrick Hines]

And this guy's saying, no one ever set up a tip line. We were the first to do it. Sorry, girl, that's not true. And that's more to the point that there are no tips. Do you know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There are no tips.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm sorry. Like, I'm actually realizing now what it kind of big revelation this is. There was A tip line. And no one called it because there are no tips.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. Well, now there's a $100,000 reward and we've.

[Patrick Hines]

That changes things.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We've seen this a million times before. That's the danger of a reward. Because suddenly for 100 grand, I have all the information you want.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, well, except for the fact that it even takes four years after this tip line is put up. Four years later.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We're talking about 19 years since Gregory's murder.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. It just blows my mind.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's this lead.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, once again, this is four years after the tip line goes up in 2013.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So we're now at 2017, 19 years after Gregory's murder.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Jeff Stein is the private eye. They hire Jeff Stein to look into this tip. This lady calls, she says, oh, guess what? 19 years ago, a few weeks before the murder. Do I have a story for you. I hope everyone's sitting down. Buckle up. She goes, someone, someone stopped by my house because he saw that kids bikes were on this lady's lawn.

[Patrick Hines]

His own children's bikes were on her lawn. Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So his kids stopped to see her son. And this guy goes in to like make small talk with this lady.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

As they're talking, this guy, this mystery.

[Patrick Hines]

Guy that she's never met before who.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Just like saunters into her home, starts complaining about all these rich kids in the area.

[Patrick Hines]

He hated the smart ass rich kids. They make fun of everybody, live in a big fancy house. Smart. Somebody could kill them and hide the evidence and no one would know. Grab them when they weren't expecting it. All things that happened to Greg, we're.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Just discovering this $100,000 and 19 years later, someone could kill these kids and hide the evidence and no one would know. You can grab them when you least expect it. Now this person, would you ever say.

[Patrick Hines]

Something like that to a stranger? Like, this is the most bullshit. Left turn. It makes me crazy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, this person had a child with what they call a learning disability. We don't say that anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

No, for this person is a real person. This person exists. And the private eye knows who this person is.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And what we're learning is this person's kid was in Greg's class. And what they're thinking is that this father was mad at rich kid Greg Whitman for making fun of his kid or picking on his kid or something.

[Patrick Hines]

Or being the type of kid that might make fun of his.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Whatever. Yeah, we don't know. But there's this dad is being angrily and violently protective of his kid who is Struggling in school and blaming rich kid Gregory Whitman for it.

[Patrick Hines]

And wouldn't you know it, while he's sitting there in this lady's living room, he pulls out a pen knife just like the one that was used to kill Gregory, and starts cleaning his nails with it and says, gross says that. Who would ever do that? Who would ever pull out? Would you ever clean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Have you ever ridden the New York City subway? People do a lot of grooming.

[Patrick Hines]

People do, like the fingernail clipping. Have you ever seen it? I've seen it in real life.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I've seen it. I've heard it. I've dodged it because they fly off. I know I've seen one and it lands right there.

[Patrick Hines]

Why do we have fingernails, do you think?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Some protection thing, I guess. We probably needed them to fight off.

[Patrick Hines]

It doesn't make any sense. I feel like the only reason we have fingernails is so that back in like the days of like kings, they could torture you by, like, shoving shit under your fingernails.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now we just paint them all fun colors.

[Patrick Hines]

I know Daisy's really into painting her fingernails.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

How cute.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. It's very adorable.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Very high maintenance and annoying.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. It's all over the floor.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Great.

[Patrick Hines]

But he says to her, he said.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I have wanted home. That. That is really sharp. And he said, man, he said it would cut your throat in a second. You know what? Now that we're here, now that I'm talking about it, I walked into your.

[Patrick Hines]

Home, got myself all worked up, started cleaning my nails.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And now that we're talking about it, someone ought to kill those rich kids, he says, and then hide the evidence and no one will know about it.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. So this woman, this never happened?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, this never happened.

[Patrick Hines]

This never happened.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And this woman is like. Well, I don't know. Like, is he blowing off steam or is he serious? And I'm like, lady, are you serious? Why are you wasting. This isn't what.

[Patrick Hines]

Even if she also, by the way, she didn't want to be identified, but she didn't have them put her in like, the. In shadow. They basically like they shot her. Her chin.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Every neighborhood knows it's Nancy. Like everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

But remember our spectrum of Nancy's.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right? Right after this conversation that 100% didn.

[Patrick Hines]

Happen, that never ever happened.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But the murder happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So that she says, this happened like a week or two before the murder. Now her husband says, you keep your fucking trap shut, Nancy. You shut it. Because they're scared of this guy. Yeah, because this guy came in and has a whole bunch of really sharp knives and he's going to go on a killing spree. That he just tells this person that he walks into their house.

[Patrick Hines]

But now, so.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then, sorry, one more thing. And then this person, this mystery person, moved and skipped town right after the murder, right?

[Patrick Hines]

But like this guy, middle of the afternoon, broad daylight, as the bus is dropping kids off in the neighborhood, somehow gets into Gregory's house using the key that Zachary left from the door. Waits for him inside the foyer.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Leaves Zachary alone, who's sleeping upstairs, leaves Zachary alone.

[Patrick Hines]

Gregory comes in, he brutally murders his kid over several minutes. Somehow he lucks out that Zachary doesn't hear it. He's dodging phone calls left and right with this girl, trying to call the.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Time, but Zachary hears it, just the right time, just a few minutes later to hear suffering. But like Zachary doesn't lay eyes on.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy, this guy that would be covered in blood, trailing blood all through the house, went out the back door to bury the fucking murderer. Weapon came back into the house, out the front door covered in blood, escaped into the neighborhood at three in the afternoon when the bus is dropping kids off and nobody saw it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's not a single unknown bit of DNA or print anywhere in this house.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Every single thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Sue and Ron, I'm so sorry, but.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Every single print or anything of anything that's in that house belonged to the four people who live in the house.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We didn't. I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy's not a genius. He's cleaning his fucking fingernails in this lady's living room that he's never met before.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's just ranting. He's mad. Yeah, okay. Join the fucking club, bro. Any. So he skipped town. Good riddance.

[Patrick Hines]

Long story short, 2016, the US Supreme Court rules that sentencing juveniles to die in prison is cruel and unusual and unconstitutional.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Thank God. 2016, everybody, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Basically, anybody who is convicted of a life sentence as a juvenile now has the potential to be resentenced, as this pertains to Zach.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So we are trying to get that a reduced sentence. The problem with that is Zachary must admit guilt or the DA will not.

[Patrick Hines]

Negotiate at all if he admits guilt.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, this is where it doesn't go great at first.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because now Zach needs to admit guilt or the DA won't negotiate. It's super petty. It's super stupid. It happens all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Not only does he have to admit guilt, he has to tell the story and sound super fucking remorseful. And this is a gamble because if he doesn't sound remorseful, Enough they will resentence him to like a worse sentence.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now this is where Ron the dad is like, literally throwing like thick reams of paper all around transcripts and briefs and documents and trials. He's throwing them around.

[Patrick Hines]

It's beautiful what he's saying. He's like, look at. Look at this. He's like, it's not just paper, it's weight. He's calling it weight as he's throwing it to the ground.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

All from the case.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's all the case files. And that really was poetic to me, the way that he was doing it, because it was like he's throwing this thing on the ground with the whole house shakes. And this is his son's life. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's almost like this might be harsh a little bit, but it feels. Feels like it's the most honestly emotional they've been.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Show me that. Throw that fucking piece of paper. Throw that bind.

[Patrick Hines]

Because also, this is where we see how they. How sue and Ron are coping differently. Because Ron is like, take the deal. Say whatever you have to say. Get out of jail.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I am team Ron here. You say get.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You get out. You get out of there.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You get out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep. And sue doesn't want him to take it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. Because also here's what he can do. He can wait to be re sentenced by the state.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Take his chances and wait forever. Because this 2016 thing, like, it's unconstitutional. Like they. He can take his chances or they can take it back to federal court. And if he loses, he'll get the mandatory sentence of 35 to life.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Again, I say whatever you gotta do.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, and if I'm being really honest, this is a win win for Zach.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because he gets to admit it and he gets to get it off his. I could sob. He gets to admit it and he gets to get it off his chest, and he gets to get out of prison for admitting it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. I think there's a lot going on here because this is what happens. He decides to admit guilt and take the reduced sentence of third degree murder.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now it's February 8th, 2018. It's the day of the hearing, and the plan is for Zach to plead guilty and he has to convince the DA that he's remorseful and basically begged the DA to do this deal with him.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now if it all falls apart, he's going back to prison. Like he's really got to do.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's admitted murder. He's admitted that he did it. Now he can Never again say that he didn't do it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because what happens is that, like, this was interesting to me because I don't know if we've ever seen a case where it's not just like the West Memphis Three or any other, where it's like, yeah, we're admitting guilt but maintaining our innocence. Zach gives a very detailed confession is what they call it.

[Patrick Hines]

No, it's not in the documentary. Did you see that elsewhere?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes. I had to Google this.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. What does he say happened?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So I had to Google this because it wasn't clear. So the state parole board granted him parole on January 18th. He didn't just plead guilty and maintain innocence like we've seen with the West Memphis Three or Daniel Village or anything else.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, he. People who actually didn't do it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He gives police a full confession. Here's what he says. He'd been sick that day, stayed home from school during the day. His brother's girlfriend called and he hung up on her. When Gregory came home from school, he. Greg was angry that his brother Zach hung up on his girlfriend. They get in a fight over the hanging up of the phone. Zach goes back to his room where Greg confronted him. And looking to scare him, Zach grabbed a knife and grabbed gloves to, like, mess with his brother.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, this is what I'm saying. Like, my theory earlier was that something happened that got out of control.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is the confession to the da not just, yeah, I did it. It was an accident, but this is it continues. Zach went downstairs and it, quote, in intense and extreme frustration, began stabbing his brother in the foyer. Greg ran into the laundry room to escape, but Zach followed him and slashed and stabbed his brother. Zachary then calls 911, went outside, buried the glove. This is Zachary telling this from his own mouth.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That he went. He called 911. After 911, he. He goes and buries the gloves in the knife. He said he was scared to admit what happened at the time. He learned later he was very much struggling as a teenager. He had mental health issues that were not being addressed. He was struggling from depression. Prosecutors extended a plea offer. Also, by the way, prosecutors extended a plea offer to Zach's attorney in 2002.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But the Whitman's claim, they weren't told about it till 2017.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now that there's a lot of information about that, could it have been that they're not accepting plea deals and they're not even telling their son about it because it's 100% innocent or nothing?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. But there's all. Is there a very good chance that he was telling the board what they wanted to hear to get the hell out of there?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of course. I've never seen it like this. This is a full confession to police. That is kind of a lot of what many people were sort of thinking probably happened anyway. Is that a perfect story to tell, or is that Zach getting it off his chest, telling the truth and getting to walk out of prison? I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, all I can say over and over and over again is if it. It wasn't Zach, who was it?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Was it because right after this hearing where he pleads guilty, the Whitmans move out of that house.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They were staying in that house for a second trial.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Again, where, like, the victim here is getting lost. I know that the Whitmans believe that Zachary is also a victim, but, like, they want. Are now moving out of that house to forget a second trial because they just want to be done with it.

[Patrick Hines]

And they don't want Zachary to have to come home to the house where this horrible thing happened. And he was prisoner for five years.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. But also something about that that really struck me. So we see them moving out. They're telling the movers to be careful with Greg's things. Like, I don't want anyone touching that. We're going to move his stuff.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's very emotional leaving the house. Like, apparently, quote, sue had a meltdown and threw Ron's clothes over the. Over the floor.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm telling you, when the cameras aren't on, they are at each other.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, they've been through a lot. I don't know. What's it like?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. So remember, they stayed in that house in case there was another trial. They can maybe find the real killer. But after, now that Zachary's out, they're going to focus on him.

[Patrick Hines]

Him.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's time to move on. They leave. So they move to this remote area of Pennsylvania and they prepare for Zach's release from prison. They're scrubbing the house top to bottom. They can't wait. So sue has set up a shrine to Gregory.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. In the basement.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The basement is Zach's living area.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, she says Zach will be very upset with this stuff because it's mostly Greg's. It'll upset him, but he won't say anything to me because he knows that I want it there. He'll be mad, but he knows I'm gonna want it to be there. I wanna slow down on this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It was a weird moment in the.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Documentary because she put a shrine to Greg in Zach's living space. Already anticipating unrest.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because she knows Zach is gonna hate it. It doesn't sit great for me for many reasons. Cuz part of me is like, what are you trying to say, Sue?

[Patrick Hines]

Uh huh.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

However, on the other hand, if my brother was murdered and I didn't do it, and I spent 16 years in prison for something I didn't do and I had to plead guilty to get myself outta hell, I don't know if I wanna see his soccer jersey.

[Patrick Hines]

Soccer jersey that he died in, by the way.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's weird that no one's understanding that part of it.

[Patrick Hines]

Uh huh.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So no matter which way you slice it, it's very odd that she's already anticipating that Zach is going to hate this and too bad, deal with it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, that is really odd.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If he's innocent, you have to understand why he wouldn't want to see the jersey every day in his living space. He just got from one hell into another.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And she seems to not even want to entertain that.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then there's this little part that almost sat. Sounds like, and I'm sorry, deep down a part of her nose and wants him to suffer every day because everyone knows what he did.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And either way, it's not right to sort of force the shrine on.

[Patrick Hines]

Wait, there's a million places in this new huge house that you could put that shrine.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And for her to say, oh, I know he's gonna hate it, but he, he's gonna have to deal with it.

[Patrick Hines]

Huh.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It says a lot. And I don't know which avenue.

[Patrick Hines]

You're right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

True.

[Patrick Hines]

Both times I watched this documentary, I was like, wait, what's going on? Like this is. This is wild. Because they go and get him out of prison. Sue doesn't go, by the way. Sue stays home with the dogs.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And I get it.

[Patrick Hines]

I. Sure. No, no, no.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I get five of them. Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's afraid the press is going to show up. She doesn't want the press to be there. But the way that Zachary is, when we finally see Zachary, he literally, literally just appears walking out of the prison and he looks utterly shell shocked.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they're doing that thing where everyone's trying to make it normal and relaxed and that's impossible. It's impossible without cameras. It's definitely impossible with cameras. It's not gonna work. Try to do the happy family thing. It's not true.

[Patrick Hines]

No. I mean, he, like Zachary can't even talk he's just looking around. He gets in the truck. He's trying to be normal. Should we stop at Walmart? I think we're good. Don't worry about it. Dad. Right. Hey.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Hey, sweetheart. Oh, my goodness.

[Patrick Hines]

They get home and the mom is just, like, all over him, and he's kind of uncomfortable.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of course he is.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No one. Whether he did it or not, no one's giving him any space to be.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's not like I'm defending murderers. They need space to.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm gonna defend parents in this moment. Like, if that was my daughter and I hadn't been able to give her, like, a real hug in 16 years, I like, sorry, D. I'm gonna be all over you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But there are other things.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know, and it's like, doing it for the cameras. And, like, you have to. He's traumatized no matter what.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because the prison system sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And there's no way he was rehabilitated or, like, safe in any way in those prison walls, no matter what.

[Patrick Hines]

Only knows what happens him while he was there. Yeah, absolutely. But it just, like. It's like, there's so many shots of him in the last three minutes just staring and it's like, leave the kid alone.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Alone.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, I'm so glad. Maybe they tried to get him to sit down and he refused. Like, I don't even. I don't even know what I believe. So I don't know if I know. Like, I'm defending this guy. I don't know. But it ends with, like, him, like, trying to adjust to the world and that we learn that Jeff Stein, the private eye, is independently pursuing that other suspect that doesn't really exist.

[Patrick Hines]

Doesn't exist. Jeff. Savior girl. Like, it's not.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what? He'll take that money.

[Patrick Hines]

That's true. But the dad driving to get his son from prison is like, well, now's not the time. But we're gonna investigate that other lead. Like, that lead. It's the only lead you've had in 19 years other than your own son, Ron. What does that tell you?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I think what they're not saying is that the only lead.

[Patrick Hines]

We've never seen a case like that. We've never seen a case where there's a family insisting that that person had been wrongfully imprisoned that doesn't have a list of 10 other people who could have done it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. You know, I think what no one's saying is that now this case is over for them. Zachary's out they can mourn Gregory and Zachary and what happened. In all, in their personal ways, I think they couldn't lose both sons. So they got Zachary out and they're moving on. That's why they left the house.

[Patrick Hines]

Y.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They can. This is how they can move on. If that confession is true, I have a lot of questions. If he went into that prison system as a 20 year old with mental health. A mental health crisis unfolding anyway.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That person needs help.

[Patrick Hines]

One, if the confession is true that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They got in such a crazy fight over hanging up on his girlfriend.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And a joke on your brother turned into stabbing him 68 times. I don't know that he should be. What's going on right now? Yeah, I don't know, but it's an Occam's Razor thing. I don't know. I. I need another suspect. And that one who sat down in that lady's house picking his nails is not it. I don't think.

[Patrick Hines]

Not him. Oh, my God, girl. We did the Whitman's for the last six hours.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The last six hours. Just about.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, fam, Join us over on the Patreon. We got. What is it, like over 400 full ad free bonus episodes over there. What are we working on now?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We're wrapping up the Pillowcase murders and then we're going to start the Kings of Tupelo.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah. For what it's worth, everybody, I didn't realize how much of the kings we were leaning into until I watched the first.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I was like over in Tupelo, which is the right.

[Patrick Hines]

The amount that I don't know about Elvis. The amount that I feel like you think that you don't know about Elvis, but you're going to be an Elvis encyclopedia when we start this documentary.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, I learned. I learned something shocking about Elvis. Anyway, it's the Kings of Tupelo. Don't ask me what it's about. I'm going to save it for the.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, it's in the app.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's in the app. Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, the point is there's over 400 full ad free bonus episodes over on Patreon. It's so much stuff. It's. It's episodes for days. We've got ad free versions of these episodes. We got Drag bingo. We got a tier where we send you stuff like the annual calendar.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Drag bingo is once a month, everybody. So once a month.

[Patrick Hines]

It is my favorite night of the month.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So fun.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so good. So anyway, we love you. What do we do next?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Girl, we are doing the Texas Cheerleader murder plot.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

On, Max. I've been waiting for a documentary since we started this podcast.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you serious?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because I'd heard about it. Anyway, we'll get into it. It's the Texas cheerleader murder plot. And if you know the story, it's about the mom with the hitman in Texas.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, wait, wait, wait.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I've been wanting to cover this case, but there wasn't any, like, good coverage of it. And so Max hooked us up with, like, a full. A full length documentary. So here we go.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, here we go.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Lots of Bring it On references coming your way next week.

[Patrick Hines]

Everybody popular to boot. We love you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We love, love you.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Bye. It was a case so bizarre that it captured worldwide attendance.

[Patrick Hines]

A shocking, unbelievable plot. Accused of hiring a hitman to kill another mother in the neighborhood.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Improve her daughter's odds of getting on the squad. My name is Shanna. I am the daughter of Wanda Holloway, the notorious Pom Pom mom. And I'm going to tell you the truth about what happened for the first time. I've always taken a very active part in my children's lives. I mean, that's what parents are for. All her energies were focused on that little girl. She was living through the child. I think she learned how to get what you want at whatever cost. They didn't play fair. She decided not to play fair either. She wanted to get in touch with a hitman. I've gotten in touch with someone for you, okay?

[Patrick Hines]

But I need to know exactly what you want.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There were parts of it that would make your skin crawl. She had no qualms about what she had done. I think she's one very scary woman. Sometimes people just want to believe what they want to believe. I think they ought to put her away. If wanting something good for your kids. Kids is greedy, then I guess they could label me as being greedy. If I didn't exist, none of this would have happened. It very quickly turned into a national news event. It's just a feeding frenzy. That's the moment when my whole world fell apart. I felt that way until I found out the truth.