414: Beyond The Headlines: The Elizabeth Thomas Story With Elizabeth Smart

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed - Episode 414: Beyond The Headlines: The Elizabeth Thomas Story With Elizabeth Smart

Introduction

In Episode 414 of True Crime Obsessed, titled "Beyond The Headlines: The Elizabeth Thomas Story With Elizabeth Smart," hosts Patrick Hines and Julian Bezavali delve deep into the harrowing true crime case of Elizabeth Thomas. This episode features insights from renowned survivor and advocate, Elizabeth Smart, providing a profound understanding of the trauma and resilience involved in such abductions.

Background of the Case

The episode begins with Patrick Hines introducing the story of Elizabeth Thomas, a young girl who was abducted by her former Murray County teacher, Ted Cummins, aged 50. Elizabeth Thomas was missing for over a week before investigators suspected Cummins as the perpetrator due to his alarming behavior and the subtle signs that something was amiss ([02:48] Patrick Hines).

The Grooming Process

Julian Bezavali and Patrick Hines explore the concept of grooming, emphasizing how predators like Cummins manipulate vulnerable individuals. Elizabeth Thomas shares her experience, describing how Cummins initially appeared caring but soon became abusive:

"It started with someone who I thought just cared about me, and then someone who started sexually abusing me." ([02:30] Elizabeth Thomas)

Elizabeth Smart provides expert analysis, explaining that grooming involves an authority figure exploiting access to a vulnerable person, gradually shifting from protector to predator. She underscores that predators often present themselves as trustworthy to gain control over their victims.

Survivor Support and Community Response

The conversation shifts to the isolation and victim-blaming Elizabeth Thomas faced within her community. Despite her ordeal, the town seemed to side with Cummins due to his reputable standing, leaving Elizabeth feeling like the antagonist. Elizabeth Smart highlights the importance of community support and understanding, noting:

"This is exactly why people don't wanna talk about what happened to them. This is why." ([07:25] Elizabeth Smart)

Patrick and Julian discuss the emotional toll of such lack of support, emphasizing that survivors often feel unheard and alone.

Law Enforcement Analysis

Detectives Tyler Sells from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and Sterling Wall from the FBI provide a detailed account of the investigation. They outline how Cummins' erratic behavior and the destruction of his phone led to Elizabeth's rescue. Key moments include:

• Initial Report: Elizabeth's sister called authorities when Elizabeth didn't return home by 6 PM, triggering the investigation ([47:10] Julian Bezavali).
• Interrogation of Cummins: Cummins' nervous demeanor and inconsistent statements during police interviews raised suspicions ([30:01] Julian Bezavali).
• Rescue Operation: A tip led law enforcement to a partially constructed cabin in Northern California, resulting in Cummins' arrest and Elizabeth's safe return ([50:39] Julian Bezavali).

Elizabeth Smart emphasizes the challenges law enforcement faces when predators blend into trusted community roles:

"The predator doesn't always look like the creepy guy in the van. Like the pastor and the camp counselor and the teacher." ([51:22] Elizabeth Smart)

Psychological Insights and Trauma

Elizabeth Thomas and Elizabeth Smart discuss the psychological impact of captivity and abuse. Elizabeth Thomas reveals the complex emotions involved in survival, including trauma bonding and self-blame:

"I was too scared to say anything. I'd rather endure this pain that he was giving me versus ending up dead." ([49:24] Elizabeth Thomas)

Elizabeth Smart introduces the concepts of "freeze" and "appease" responses, explaining how victims navigate their fears and the perceived inability to escape abusive situations.

Community and Personal Healing

Post-rescue, Elizabeth Thomas faces the daunting task of reintegrating into a community that ostracized her. The episode highlights her journey towards healing and advocacy, inspired by Elizabeth Smart's own experiences:

"I want to change the world. I want to do what you're doing. I want to be an advocate and an activist." ([62:42] Elizabeth Thomas)

Elizabeth Smart assures Elizabeth Thomas of her potential to make a significant impact, emphasizing the importance of support systems in the healing process.

Conclusion and Reflections

Patrick Hines and Julian Bezavali conclude the episode by reflecting on the systemic issues that allow predators to thrive and the societal stigma surrounding survivors. They advocate for increased awareness, education on grooming tactics, and fostering supportive communities to prevent future tragedies.

Notable Quotes

• Elizabeth Thomas: "Just because someone on face value looks like that they're Mr. Clean doesn't necessarily mean they are." ([02:37] Elizabeth Thomas)
• Elizabeth Smart: "This is exactly why people don't wanna talk about what happened to them. This is why." ([07:45] Elizabeth Smart)
• Patrick Hines: "We're going to come to see that these two Elizabeths have like a real bond as people who have survived." ([04:32] Patrick Hines)
• Julian Bezavali: "Grooming is not just sexual, but it's a very dangerous thing that can happen. And it happens all the time." ([20:38] Julian Bezavali)
• Elizabeth Thomas: "I want to change the world. I want to do what you're doing. I want to be an advocate and an activist." ([62:42] Elizabeth Thomas)

Final Thoughts

Episode 414 of True Crime Obsessed offers a comprehensive and empathetic exploration of Elizabeth Thomas' abduction, drawing parallels with Elizabeth Smart's own survival story. Through candid discussions and expert insights, the hosts shed light on the intricate dynamics of predator-victim relationships, the psychological scars left behind, and the path towards healing and advocacy. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the resilience of survivors and the urgent need for societal change in supporting them.

Transcript

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, fam. Patrick here. Just a reminder that my tour starts in less than two weeks. So I'm coming all over the country for an evening that is one part me telling you a story about a disastrous night I spent with golden girls icon Bea Arthur. It's hilarious. We've got a Bea Arthur impersonator via video to tell her side of the story. It's a whole multimedia experience. And then the second half of the night, we all go to the venue bar. It's a cash bar, and we just hang out. The whole idea of the evening evening is for you to make new tco fam friends in your area and do not be afraid to come alone. We've got stickers for solo travelers that say solo and fabulous. And that just lets your fellow fam know that you're looking to make new friends. You don't need to wear the sticker if you're traveling solo, but if you want to make new friends, that's an easy way to let everybody know. So far, we've announced 17 cities, including Seattle, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, Denver, Indianapolis, New Orleans, Kansas City, Dallas, Orlando, Austin, Houston, Portland, San Francisco, Phoenix, Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. A couple of those are already sold out. A few of them are running really low. So if you're thinking about getting tickets, go ahead and do it while tickets still last. And we've got a whole bunch more cities to announce very, very soon. We've got a link to the tickets in the show notes of the episode. Or you can just go to patricktours.com for all the info and tickets and fam, I will see you on the road. Elizabeth smart produced this.

[Julian Bezavali]

You say Elizabeth Smart produced this. And Elizabeth Thomas is here to tell her own story. It's amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

It's really amazing. I'm very into it.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know. Hi.

[Patrick Hines]

Julian Bezavali.

[Julian Bezavali]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, fam. Join us over on the patreon. But only, only if you like bonus episodes once a week with no ads.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yep. And drag bingo once a month with also no ads.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's just a whole lot of fun.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so much fun. If you're on the hero bell tier. We just released another brand new episode just for them.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So we did an unsolved mysteries episode covering the America's Loch Ness monster champ.

[Julian Bezavali]

In upstate New York.

[Patrick Hines]

The Loch Ness monster of Lake Champlain. Yeah. Has she been there for 35 million years? Only one way to find out.

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, depending on who you ask.

[Patrick Hines]

Ask somebody on the hero belt here. They'll Tell you.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

What are we talking about today, girl?

[Julian Bezavali]

All right, so this is called the Elizabeth Thomas Story with Elizabeth Smart and it's on Hulu. A predator can come in all shapes and forms.

[Patrick Hines]

It can be that teacher the public looks at it as.

[Julian Bezavali]

I can't believe he would do that.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

It started with someone who I thought just cared about me, and then someone who started sexually abusing me.

[Patrick Hines]

I ain't done nothing wrong.

[Julian Bezavali]

Just because someone on face value looks like that they're Mr. Clean doesn't necessarily mean they are.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm more afraid than I've ever been in my life.

[Julian Bezavali]

Elizabeth Thomas has been missing for well over a week now. Investigators believe she was abducted by her former Murray county teacher, 50 year old Ted Cummins. The hairs on the back of my neck stood up. There was no doubt in my mind.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

That they were together the first days of captivity. I was sexually assaulted multiple times a day.

[Julian Bezavali]

He's believed to be armed, and now.

[Patrick Hines]

His wife is asking him to come out of hiding.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

Please do the right thing and turn.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yourself into the police and bring Beth home. He took those guns. I mean, what's he gonna do with the guns? Is it for protection or does he have something else in mind? I am headed to meet Elizabeth Thomas.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

I've been wanting to talk about my story for a while and I'm tired of being qu about it.

[Patrick Hines]

We open with the incredible Elizabeth Smart. If you don't know her story, she was kidnapped in 2002 and held captive for nine months before being rescued.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now she. She's a survivor, she's an advocate. She's spoken to so many survivors in the last 20 or so years.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she explains, you know, Elizabeth Thomas is here to tell her story. But Elizabeth Smart is saying that, like, after all these 20 plus years, even though the details can vary, the emotional journey can be very similar. Not the same, the same. But yeah, she's really trying to help these women.

[Patrick Hines]

It's unbelievable. Like, we'll get more into.

[Julian Bezavali]

I should say sorry.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we'll get into Elizabeth Thomas's story. But we talk so much about how isolating things like this feel, but I mean, when you think about the number of people who've lived through what they've lived through, being kidnapped, you know, sexually assaulted, as we're going to learn, but then also like escape and they get on with their lives, like, we're going to come to see that these two Elizabeths have like a real bond as people who have survived. A very unique thing that only like people who've been through what they've been through would know what they've been through.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. Like Elizabeth Smart understands the ventures value of talking to someone who has a similar experience. Because it can be so lonely, it can be so isolating. And like you're saying if you're, if you haven't been through it, you don't get it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So Elizabeth Smart is in the car and she's on her way to meet Elizabeth Thomas. And she's wearing her power red jacket.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And she's looking amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

Incredible. It's so crazy to see her grown up because we see like I remember her as like a young girl, you know, and to see like we haven't. She hasn't been in the public eye much in the last like 10 years.

[Julian Bezavali]

She's been doing hard goddamn work.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. And she just looks like a. Like a grown woman now.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. She has a. It's very interesting to see because she's so warm and welcoming but also very commanding and knows she's really stepping into her power here and sort of holding her hands out for Elizabeth Thomas to say like, come here.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. You can almost get the sense that like she speaks to like large groups on this topic all the time. She's very well spoken, she's very articulate. She knows exactly what she wants to say. She conveys it all very well.

[Julian Bezavali]

But Elizabeth Smart says that she wants to know why Elizabeth Thomas wants to tell her story now on this very big stage on Hulu with ABC News. And Elizabeth Thomas is here to explain.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It's been six years since the events of Elizabeth Thomas kidnapping happened.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. She calls it the event. Cause she doesn't wanna put a name to it. And I totally understand that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I was saying to you before we started watching this was hard for me.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It's tough because it's very hard to watch survivors like sort of talk through this. And Elizabeth Thomas, it feels like she's doing it kind of for the first time.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's uncomfortable. But obviously we need to sit in the uncomfortability and learn.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. And her name is Mary Katherine Elizabeth Thomas. Some people call her Mary Catherine, some people call her Beth.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a lot of names.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's a lot of names. Mary Catherine Elizabeth Thomas.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she says like look, there is still a lot of healing to do. And we see these two women meet in person for the first time and it's really, really incredible.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's amazing. It's little things like they're standing on Elizabeth Thomas's front porch. And they've met over the phone, so they've spoken a couple of times. But Elizabeth Smart wants to give her a hug, but she's asking for consent.

[Julian Bezavali]

Of course.

[Patrick Hines]

She's like, may I give you a hug?

[Julian Bezavali]

Are you ready for that? Maybe we can hug at the end of this. Maybe we can hug. Not at all. I know, but what's.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, you pointed out in The Taylor the 22 moment in the errors tour, she always asked a little kid first before giving the hug.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And it means even though the kids.

[Julian Bezavali]

Are like, arms outstretched, like. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So she likes the ones that are.

[Julian Bezavali]

Just asks to trade the bracelets. Oh, God, it's so cute.

[Patrick Hines]

It's my favorite. I could watch it on a loop all day long. I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's so good. So Elizabeth Thomas explains that the town where this happened hasn't really been supportive of her. They're supporting the abuser.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

They seen him as, you know, the good person in the situation. And it wasn't his fault. Just because he had such a good reputation in the town that it just made me seem like I was just this child that came along and ruined his life.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, she lives in the town and she's not supported. And I think she's here to set the record straight.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. Cause she says he had such a good reputation, and they make it out like I was some child who came along and ruined his life.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she really emphasizes his here, which I think is important to point out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

We see the two of them speaking, both Elizabeth Sierra speaking. And then we get Elizabeth Smart to camera to sort of break things down for us, because she has. She's been such an advocate for so long. And she jumps in and Elizabeth Smart says, this is exactly why people don't wanna talk about what happened to them. This is why. Because even everyone knows the truth. The truth is so glaringly obvious.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And still Elizabeth Thomas is being shamed, or she's just not being believed, or she's kind of, like, sneered at when she's just going to the store. It's ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

It's insane. And part of me feels like people must just not be able to confront that this happened in their community. You know what I mean? And there's something about this teacher. We had a teacher. We'll get to him in a minute. But we had a teacher like him at Miam High School, the safe one, the one that everyone went to his classroom. And he ended up being a great guy, like being the principal of the high school eventually. And as Far as I know, there's no allegations against him. But it always made me uncomfortable, like kids were a little too close to this teacher, you know?

[Julian Bezavali]

It's true. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And I want to be very clear. Nothing ever happened with him. But there are boundaries for a reason, and there should be boundaries. Like, we'll get. We'll get there.

[Julian Bezavali]

We'll get there when we get there.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's just like, oh, yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Travel down the road.

[Patrick Hines]

Back again, girl. Pretty Litter is back. Tell us about macaroni.

[Julian Bezavali]

Macaroni's doing great. He's feeling great according to his pee. Because Pretty litter tells us that I'm.

[Patrick Hines]

Feeling great according to my pee.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? But that's the thing about Pretty Litter. They've got the health indicator. They do a bunch of other things we're gonna tell you about, but this health indicator means that the litter turns a different color if the cat has something going on that you need to have looked at by the vet. Because a kitty cat cannot tell you. Not even Macaroni, right?

[Julian Bezavali]

Macaroni is my best friend's cat, by the way.

[Patrick Hines]

I think Macaroni is your best friend. Well, you know, hey, you're getting close.

[Julian Bezavali]

Here's the thing, though. Pretty Litter's non clumping formula traps odor and moisture. I know you don't want to hear this, everyone, but if you a litter box, your house smells.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true.

[Julian Bezavali]

So not anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

Not anymore. It's lightweight, low dust and 16 pound bag. Works for up to a month. And the thing is, they send it right to your door. I always say this. I remember the days of like carrying that heavy box or bag and it like rips your hands and the dust is all over you everywhere. Not anymore. Not with the Pretty Lits.

[Julian Bezavali]

Nope. Indoor cats and indoor humans agree. Pretty litter helps your house smell fresh and clean. Go to pretty litter.com tco to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Patrick Hines]

Did you see the way my face lit up with the free cat toy?

[Julian Bezavali]

So cute.

[Patrick Hines]

That's prettylitter.com TCO to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Julian Bezavali]

Prettylitter.com TCO terms and conditions apply.

[Patrick Hines]

See site for details. What do you think the cat toy is?

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, probably something with like a bell on it, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, totally.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. A little mouse with a bell on it.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

So we learned Elizabeth Thomas was already what they say is vulnerable.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

My family growing up was very rough. We weren't raised on I love you, I Just felt like there was no love in that household. There was a lot of things we didn't have. We weren't, you know, we were very poor. My parents homeschooled us. But I felt isolated just because I felt like there was nobody who cared for me.

[Patrick Hines]

There's no parent sort of being like, that was horrible when this thing happened.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. And then I supported her ever since.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And all I can think of as a dad watching this whole thing is like, it's just not hard to show love to your children. I get it. I was raised by a single mom who had to work all the fucking time. I was barely parented. But I knew my mother loved me and that made some kind of a difference.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. You know, Elizabeth Thomas says, you know, she grew up poor, she was homeschooled, which made her feel very, very isolated. She said, I felt like there was no one who cared for me. But then high school comes along and she goes to high school. So it was a major, like, culture shock because she goes from being isolated and homeschooled to being like in actual high school.

[Patrick Hines]

Can I tell you something that's just occurring to me? Like she's talking about this transition into regular high school and how hard it was because nobody talked to her and everybody looked at her like she' like the weird new kid and she had nowhere to sit at lunch. And like, it is just not hard to be nice to people.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know, it breaks. It breaks my heart. And I have a question like, can you just teach your kids to invite people to sit with them? Is. And now my question is on top of that question because the first thing I'm, I'm saying is like, is it too much to ask.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

To teach your kids to invite someone who's sad, who's sitting by themselves at lunch. But then I'm thinking, am I going to get yelled at for that? Like, am I making it the kids responsibility now?

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, no.

[Julian Bezavali]

I don't know. It just feels like the nice thing to do.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm 100% on your side. And we had a meeting with Daisy's principal today just for over stuff about school. And the thing that the principal said to us was like, Daisy is just friends with every. She's so nice to everybody. And like we had our Christmas party, right? And we had maybe six or seven kids at the party. There was a woman who came. I didn't know that well. She was a friend of a friend. She brought her son, his name was Kevin. And I brought him into the room where all the kids were playing, and they all knew each other. And I. I brought him to Daisy because he was a little shy, and I knew she would make him at home. And I said, daisy, this is Kevin. Can you please make him feel at home? And she took him by the hand and she goes, yes, Daddy, get out.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, bye. But, like, a little goes a long way. And when you're in high school, it's.

[Patrick Hines]

Just not that hard. Like, when I was in high school and I came out and I just had a really fucking hard time, and I wasn't cool. I wasn't popular. The most popular girl at school made it her fucking life mission to make my life better. She just, like, she befriended me day one of junior year. She turned my life around, and because of her, I loved my high school experience. It's just. Her name is Bethany. It's just not that fucking hard to do that.

[Julian Bezavali]

We've discussed Bethany, and your kid doesn't have to make it their life's mission.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, Bethany, she's above it. She's a unicorn. Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

But, like, you see, I. I just don't understand, like, what is the protocol with the conversation at home when someone sees someone sitting alone at lunch? And if you don't want to invite them to your friends, like, can you maybe teach your. Go sit with them or ask them a question, or say, hi, introduce yourself.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, Daisy and I have had the conversation about how, like, Daddy and I are both gay. That means, like, when we were in high school, it was kind of hard for us. People weren't always nice and, like, having to explain, like, what it's like to be different and what. What that means and how that was for us. And. And I think you can teach empathy in your kids. Not everybody can be taught empathy. No, not everybody, but I think most people can.

[Julian Bezavali]

You can try. You can sure as hell try.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

And here's the thing about having kids. The goals keep them alive.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally. If you're doing that, you're nailing it.

[Julian Bezavali]

And raise them to be decent.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Tell them you love them every now and then. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, make them feel loved. And that was the first thing I thought of. And I was like, oh, this might be controversial. Am I gonna get in trouble for saying, teach your kids to be nice to the kid who's sitting alone at lunch?

[Patrick Hines]

Nope. I don't think that anyone's gonna have any controversy over that.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know, you don't have to take it on.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what, fam. I wanna hear from you in the Facebook group, weigh in, like, do we think we should be teaching our kids to be nice to other kids at school?

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, what do you put it that way?

[Patrick Hines]

I want to hear your thoughts. I really do. I want to hear your experience with this.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. So we meet Sarah Beth Myers. Love her.

[Patrick Hines]

Where's her documentary? She's the best.

[Julian Bezavali]

She's a former federal prosecutor. She prosecuted the piece of shit in this case. His name is Tad Commons. Sarah Beth says, and this is what I love. These women are really pulling back the curtain on this. Things we know, but they're saying it in ways that are really accessible. And like you were saying, like to sit in that uncomfortability about what this all means and how something like this happens.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because she says Tad Cummins is the perfect example of an in person grooming process with an authority figure who had unique access to a child in very vulnerable circumstances. And Mary Catherine is a perfect example of how an abuser would find someone who has particularly vulnerable characteristics, unique access. And I want to say he was her health teacher they're talking about.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that what it was?

[Julian Bezavali]

They're talking about bodies. It's an intimate kind of thing to be talking about with teenagers. Teenagers anyway, so I just wanna say that. But he was this authority figure. He had unique access to a child in very vulnerable circumstances.

[Patrick Hines]

Because remember, like she's new to the school, she doesn't know anybody, she doesn't have any friends. Nobody's parents thought their kids to be nice at that school. So like no one's being kind to her. And she's coming from a very, very sheltered upbringing where like she does not have a close relationship with her parents. She's a prime target to be groomed.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she says she doesn't want to say this guy's name. It's a trigger for her. Don't worry, Elizabeth Thomas. We are not gonna say it either. We said it once, we had to. Now we're done.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

So she meets this guy between her freshman and so year and he was the cool teacher.

[Patrick Hines]

So I want to talk about this a little bit because like I said, we have this teacher at my school. He ended up being, I mean as far as I know, he was great. And kids really felt safe in his classroom.

[Julian Bezavali]

And cool teachers too.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep. And he was like. It was like you would meet in his classroom, like, like the bus would drop you off and everyone would go to his classroom and like it was. But there was just something about it that felt off to me. And I just think that boundaries exist for a reason. You know what I mean? Now, I'm not trying to take away your. Your kid's favorite cool teacher. I want them to have that. I want eyes on everybody.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

It's like you want them to have the Mr. Keating from dead Poet Society, but we can't all be Robin Williams.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And like, you know, is it Professor Keating?

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, Captain, my Captain. Oh, Captain, my Captain.

[Julian Bezavali]

I've been. You know when you get a craving to watch a movie? Like you get a craving to eat or drink something? I have been craving Dead Poet Society. But I have been. Especially after the Tortured Poet Society.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

I've been dying to watch it, but I'm a weirdo. And it has to be like the perfect, perfect temperature outside. It has to be the perfect weather. And now I'm missing. It has to be October. It has to be a BDR month. So I. I have. I have months and months to work myself up to it. But I've been like, a little fearful to watch it because I know it's just gonna totally destroy me again.

[Patrick Hines]

Were you a swing kids girl?

[Julian Bezavali]

Was I a swing kids girl? I didn't know if you were gonna.

[Patrick Hines]

Know what that was.

[Julian Bezavali]

Are you kidding me?

[Patrick Hines]

Robert Shine? Leonard. I know because I had that poster in my room.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, I was like, obsessed. The one, two punch. Oh, the one, two, three punch of like the newsies. Swing kids, Dead Poets era.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, how about Strictly Ballroom That I missed. Ok. Was a Baz Luhrmann. Oh, my God. Fam. Go watch Strictly Ballroom. It is so good.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know that it is. It was just never. It was never in my, like, constant rotation.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I wish you and I had known each other like in. In middle school and high school because we would have liked the same boys.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? So anyway. Anyway, just keep eyes on the teachers. Teachers, thank you for being. Look, I love. Well, maybe nurses, but I love teachers. Like number two.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm not trying to disparage teachers in any way. I just remember looking at this guy and clocking him and being like, that's what everybody felt about this teacher over here. And this gu, obviously is giving the great teachers a bad name.

[Julian Bezavali]

Of course. I mean, Ashley, my best friend Ashley has been a teacher forever. And she's an assistant principal now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yay, Ashley.

[Julian Bezavali]

So proud. But they call her Ms. Ashley.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

But I do think there's something. And they've always called her Miss Ashley from the first time I, like, visited her at work, which was like, oh, my God, I could cry. It's so. She's so amazing. But, like, she's doing such good work in New York City and, like, with kids and they need her so much. And I'm just in the cab.

[Patrick Hines]

Macaroni.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, my God. Even though he knocked her down the stairs and she, like, fractured. She got, like, a bone fracture.

[Patrick Hines]

He knocked her down the stairs.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Excuse me.

[Julian Bezavali]

That was wrong. Macaroni. I'm sorry. He was so little.

[Patrick Hines]

That's. This for macaroni?

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, he was going to get neutered, and he was going to get.

[Patrick Hines]

Look, you try to neuter me, I'm gonna knock somebody down the stairs.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay, but you know what I mean? So please, spay neuter your pets. But they were walking down the stairs, and he's so teeny tiny. And she tripped over him and they both went flying down the stairs. He was totally fine. He got neutered. He's fine. But she had, like, a bone fracture.

[Patrick Hines]

No. Is she okay?

[Julian Bezavali]

She's totally fine. We were supposed to hang out that night, and she was like. So something happened.

[Patrick Hines]

I was like, oh, she's like, macaroni, right?

[Julian Bezavali]

But yes, with macaroni and the kids of New York.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God. Well, anyway, they're saying this piece of shit teacher, Elizabeth is saying to us.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

The early attention I got from him made me feel, I guess, cared about at the time. It made me feel like someone actually seen me versus, you know, just being ignored. Like, I was at home. Felt like someone might actually, you know, love me and care about me. I thought I was loved by this person as a child and knowing that I did need it and I was looking for someone to be safe with.

[Patrick Hines]

He was the exact opposite of her home life, where she felt ignored and not cared for. This guy made a safe space for her. He was always there for her.

[Julian Bezavali]

And not just her, like other students in her high school. His room was the safe space. She says whenever I was stressed out, I just went there. And again, they don't say it here, but they do mention he's a health teacher.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And also, can we take health class a little more seriously? I know it's not AP physics, but based on the state of this country, we need, like.

[Patrick Hines]

My health class was so fucking awesome in high school.

[Julian Bezavali]

It was.

[Patrick Hines]

It was incredible. Talked about everything. We talked about, like, sex. We talked about gay stuff. We talked. I mean, it was. This is the 90s.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it was. My health class was awesome.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, you're like, one of the only ones. It's such a joke.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

It shouldn't be.

[Patrick Hines]

No, it's very serious.

[Julian Bezavali]

Anyway. But again, I'm saying that because that can be intimate. You're talking about these things that can be uncomfortable for kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

And it's just like, now this guy I know, like, the health teacher has the safe space.

[Patrick Hines]

It's awful. So prosecutor Sarah is here to define grooming for us. And she's saying grooming is when a person in a position of authority who knows and understands what a person in a vulnerable position would like to hear, would like to get, would like to be, and then that person playing into those desires that the younger person would want.

[Julian Bezavali]

And Elizabeth Thomas is like, yep, he was actually. She felt at the time that he. She was seen by him. Yes, she was heard by him. And she goes versus, you know, just being ignored. Like, I was at home.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And Sarah, the prosecutor is like. I would like to emphasize there is no. Nothing special about this piece of shit. He just.

[Julian Bezavali]

Say it again, Sarah.

[Patrick Hines]

Nothing special about him. He just followed the playbook, you know?

[Julian Bezavali]

You know, I gotta say, grooming doesn't have to just be sexual. Like, I've seen people groom, like, their peers and their contemporaries.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, it's not just an authority figure, like a teacher, but if someone sort of, like, considers themselves, like, a little more special.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Which as we just learned, they're not.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

But like, maybe in the public eye or they, like, fake being a victim. Like, they can groom people to do their bidding for that.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, oh, my God, grooming. 100%.

[Julian Bezavali]

Grooming is not just sexual, but it's a very dangerous thing that can happen. And it happens all the time. This, like, perceived.

[Patrick Hines]

And it feels like it's something that's brand new to the conversation. You know what I mean? I feel like we know about grooming for, like, sexual abuse, but, like, talking about that kind of grooming, you know, for online bullying and all of that, I think this is new to the conversation.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, well, whatever. It's not.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I'm saying it's been happening for a long time, but we're kind of just waking up to it as a culture.

[Julian Bezavali]

And I think that's another thing people don't want to. You know, people will say, well, I. I've never joined a cult. I'd never do that. They don't want to really look in the mirror and be like, oh, my God, I.

[Patrick Hines]

For this.

[Julian Bezavali]

I fell for this horrible person.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now I've been doing horrible Things for them. Like different kinds of grooming.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

But this piece of shit made Elizabeth Thomas feel safe because he knew what he was doing. Yeah. You know, she didn't feel safe or she didn't feel loved or cared for it at home. And he knew exactly what to do.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, but then she says, because, like, this was just the beginning. That's the grooming part.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

She says, I don't know when that switch had happened where he started sexually assaulting me, but it just went from one extreme to the other. And, you know, there was no getting out. There was no telling him no. It felt like I had no way out.

[Patrick Hines]

Then she just lives in total fear of him.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because, remember, this doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't start with the inappropriate touching. But first, he makes her feel comfortable and safe. That's the only place she feels seen and heard and cared for. So when someone does touch your back or your knee, you probably don't think anything of it because he's this amazing safe space. And then when it's egregious, like actual assault, you're trapped.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's how this works.

[Patrick Hines]

And there's nobody that you can tell. You think no one's going to believe you, you know, and you're also the new kid. You don't know anybody, know anybody.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she also explains, like, this is something that we don't really hear, which is, like, so amazing that she's saying it. But Elizabeth Thomas says you get addicted to the highs and the lows.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

You get addicted to the trauma of what's happening to you. Because she says the lows are awful, but the highs are amazing. And. And they do that to reel you in, and then they get a hold of you and they can't let go.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

So they. Elizabeth Smart says, like, to just tack onto that. They go from protector to predator.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And like, for a child who's going through trauma at home anyway, that's impossible to navigate. And your brain meant to be confusing.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Because your brain can't. Like, all of a sudden, she has a safe space for the first place in her life. She can't lose that, you know? So even though he's abusing her in her brain, he's also the only safe space she has.

[Julian Bezavali]

And then you start negotiating with yourself.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because it's like, well, sometimes I'm seen and heard. And it is really awful now because now Elizabeth Thomas is saying that he was abusing her every, every day, and he was forcing her to do sexual things that she didn't want to do. And if she said no, he'd be furious. But then she's like, well, I don't want him to say no because he's the only person who's nice to me.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

So you start negotiating against yourself to continue to be in this horrifying situation, and just.

[Patrick Hines]

There's no. And you can't tell anybody. Nobody knows.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Because imagine, like, oh, God. To play this out from Elizabeth Thomas's perspective. She tells somebody to make it stop, she loses her safe space. But also, he goes to jail.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she's already ostracized. No one's sitting with her at lunch anyway. And her parents aren't nice to her, so what is she going to do?

[Patrick Hines]

Fam with children. Go tell your kids tonight they got sit with the new kid. Just tell. Just go home and tell them they got to sit with the new kid.

[Julian Bezavali]

Question. A little bit goes a long way. Just be nice. What are you listening to these days? Oh, I like that bracelet. I don't care.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Julian Bezavali]

Not in the Regina George way. Ugliest effing bracelet I've ever seen.

[Patrick Hines]

So you agree? I need to lose three pounds.

[Julian Bezavali]

So you agree. You think you're really pretty. Can't sit with us. No, you can sit with us. That's the vibe.

[Patrick Hines]

You can. Exactly. You can sit with us.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's always been the vibe.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. That's merch. Tco. You can sit with us.

[Julian Bezavali]

We have definitely, like, this is not the first time we've said that.

[Patrick Hines]

Really?

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

All right.

[Julian Bezavali]

For sure.

[Patrick Hines]

All right. Welcome. Welcome back to the planet, Patrick.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, no, but I'm just saying, like, that's. It's like, it's. Look. Look how easy it was to do that.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I mean. And I want to say this. I really mean this from the bottom of my heart. Get into our Facebook group. You are welcome there. If you're having a hard day, if you. Where you live, you feel isolated and alone. We are those kids. We are those kids that are now making this podcast. We want you here. We want you to be with us. Come and find us.

[Julian Bezavali]

Come and find us and find.

[Patrick Hines]

God damn it. I could stand up and scream. I want the West Wing music playing underneath me.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, Captain Mike Hatton.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, Captain Mike. Hannah, I'm gonna get on this desk.

[Julian Bezavali]

So I have to wait till October to watch that movie. Now you do.

[Patrick Hines]

You make the rules?

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly. I make the rules. And they're very strict.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, that. Because then when you do watch it, you're gonna really love it.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm gonna love it. You're gonna really want.

[Patrick Hines]

What's the movie you would watch like, right. What's the season for this?

[Julian Bezavali]

What is it? January?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like real self care, like how to lose a guy in 10 days fun. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because Mike and I've been watching a lot of rom coms and like chick flicks, for lack of a better term. So I've been introd movies that he hasn't seen and he's like McConaughey. He goes. McConaughey is like smooth in that.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah, he's so good.

[Julian Bezavali]

I think it's the best. McConaughey Rom com.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. We tried to watch the comms, the comedies, the dramedies, straight to DVDs.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's our friend Jen Simard. Traveled down the road.

[Patrick Hines]

Back again, girl. Armor colostrum is back. Look, everyone around me is talking about this now, this armor colostrum.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. You were not really eavesdropping, but kind of eavesdropping on the gymbros. And they were talking all about essentially.

[Patrick Hines]

Jimbros, but they were talking about it because here, this time of year, everyone is looking for ways to strengthen your immunity. Up the gut, health, up the metabolism, all of those things. Right. Especially me. And that is truly why I started taking the armor colostrum. And it's really easy. What it is, fam, it's a bioactive whole food and it comes in a powder. And you do four scoops of it a day, and you can put the scoops on or in anything that is not hot. So you can put it in water and mix it up. I put it on my yogurt. It's super easy to take.

[Julian Bezavali]

There are over 400 nutrients in it. So you throw it on your yogurt and now you're good to go. And colostrum has been shown in research to help in enhance nutrient absorption, which is what we're talking about, promote lean muscle building, also what you're very interested in, and improve endurance while fueling cellular repair regeneration for faster recovery. So you know what that means. It's a fancy way of saying the day after you work out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know, it's still feeling good, your muscle recovery.

[Patrick Hines]

And I got to tell you, fam, none of us are getting any younger. And people at my age or around my age, we got to start really paying attention to this stuff. It's also things I'm not looking for, but I love. It's like vitalized hair growth. Skin radiance. You don't need any of that.

[Julian Bezavali]

Look, you work to get skin radiance like this. That's what I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

So, fam. We love it. We've worked out a special offer for our audience.

[Julian Bezavali]

Receive 15% off your first order. Go to tryarmora.com TCO or enter TCO to get 15% off your first order.

[Patrick Hines]

That's T-R-Y-A R M R A.com TCO try it. I really use it. It really works.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, I believe you.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you.

[Julian Bezavali]

And steal that yogurt idea. We're allowed to steal it. We're stealing it.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, eavesdrops on the gym boys.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean.

[Julian Bezavali]

So Marcus Albright is the lead detective. He's the captain now. Not in the pirate way. It's January. He's just the captain of the force.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

January 30, 2017. The school calls the cops because here's where we're going to slow down on this for a minute.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

They report a teacher has been caught kissing a student.

[Patrick Hines]

Kissing a student.

[Julian Bezavali]

No. We're already on the wrong track. There's no such thing as a teacher kissing a student.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

An adult is assaulting a child.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

A teacher was caught. What? Would you walk in on them and apologize?

[Patrick Hines]

But I mean, honestly, like, we don't know who the student is who saw this or who reported it, but we know that it was reported and it was not reported by Elizabeth, our victim.

[Julian Bezavali]

It was handled poorly right away because suddenly the entire school knows and everyone's mad at Elizabeth. How could you do this to the teacher? Our safe space.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? Because the idea is that she seduced him. Like, are you fucking kidding me?

[Julian Bezavali]

It's her fault he got caught. Can everyone just shut up about it? And the cool teacher. I know that's what everyone's saying. And she says, I felt like I had to protect him to protect myself. So she lies to the cops and she goes there. I don't know what's happening. There was no kiss at all.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

She's protect. Protecting herself from the bullies and from her home life and from this now abuser.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is where it starts. This is the beginning of her not feeling like the police are a safe space for her.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

Because right after the police interview, after.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

My police interview, he cornered me in his room and he asked me what I told them. And that was the scariest thing. Looking into his eyes and just being so scared of what is he gonna do to me. Even though I tried to assure him I didn't tell him anything. Anything. It just felt like he's, you know, basically told me if you did tell anybody, you know, it would happen.

[Patrick Hines]

She was terrified. Looking into his eyes.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The rage that she saw there as.

[Julian Bezavali]

She'S apologizing to him and saying, don't worry, I won't do anything. I mean, she didn't do anything.

[Patrick Hines]

She didn't do anything.

[Julian Bezavali]

So January, we get to a little bit of a timeline here. January 23, 2017. KISS reported is what the on screen text says. Another student, some they. She her saw them kiss. Kissing and reported it. Not again. This teacher is doing something inappropriate with my friend.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Teacher was caught kissing a student.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

Student was caught kissing a teacher.

[Patrick Hines]

Seducing the teacher in the bathroom. Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

So by February 1, 2017, the piece of shit has his first interview with the cops.

[Patrick Hines]

He comes in to that. We see this wreck, a nervous wreck. He looks like a bag of shit, this guy.

[Julian Bezavali]

You can see how heavy he's breathing. You can see his shirt moving. Like his heart is beating out of his chest.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now his version is that witness was lying. No one has kissed anyone. Anyone, ever. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

So they ask him, what is your relationship with Beth?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

And he says, I am a person that has been alongside her and that she comes to from time to time for counsel. I mean, the answer is I'm her health teacher.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like period, end of period, end of story. The word salad.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

I counsel her from time to time. You're her fucking health teacher.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, is he like setting up the scene to be like, she's making this up because she's obsessed with me?

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, because, you know, we get this like long winded story.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And it's one of those situations where like, you're just digging yourself deeper. Stay stupid, Keep talking.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Even the COVID ups bad.

[Patrick Hines]

Because, well, imagine like, imagine you're this fudgeing drip, right? Like you're in the police station. He thinks he's going to jail. At the end of this interview, like, this man is fighting for his life and he's like a herb fighting for his life.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh my God. Fudgeing herbs, man. And so this is his long winded story. And again, just shut up. But, but really keep talking.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? It's very To Catch a Predator. It's like if he's like, I want a lawyer, like then all of a sudden you. Right. They always do. They always Sit down.

[Julian Bezavali]

They always take the chairs. Hey, I'm just gonna change out of my cheerleading outfit. I'll be right back. Those poor women.

[Patrick Hines]

Those, like 40 year old women who look like they're 13.

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, that must be so, like, what's the mental health. I know protocol with that.

[Patrick Hines]

The first time you ever did one of those, like when you.

[Julian Bezavali]

They get them out of that room so fast.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just gonna change out of my cheerleading costume. Don't worry, I'll bring the condoms.

[Julian Bezavali]

Abby. That's literally. Literally. Or she's like, did you bring the booze and the condoms and the po. As she's looking.

[Patrick Hines]

She's halfway.

[Julian Bezavali]

Did you bring it? And halfway there's like Chris Hansen and the cops on the other in their den.

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely fucking terrifying to be that actress.

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, no. Oh, the actress. Yes. I was gonna say the guy's like, oh, no.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I mean, like this guy right now, like, he's busted. He knows the jig is up. You know what I mean? Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

So he just is a nervous talker. Nervous talker. Cause he goes.

[Patrick Hines]

She had got into somewhat of a confrontation with her master, asked to go to the restroom, grabbed her backpack. And the teacher protested her taking her backpack. And she said she had to have it because she was on her period and needed stuff out of there.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay. Hi, I'm on my period, so I need it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Very Cher Horowitz. I mean, the same, like a crimson wave. I had to holla ass to the ladies.

[Patrick Hines]

All I know is that if Daisy came home and told me that she was going to the bathroom and the teacher said, don't take your bag, and she had to explain to them that she was having her period. I would burn the school to the ground.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, it's like, how do you know? Why are you talking to her about her period? Why does every teacher seem to know everything? Like it's all. All inappropriate across the board?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now did this even happen?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

But Sarah, the prosecutor is like, this is crazy. None of this ever should have fucking happened.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because he continues, he says, well, all of this was taking place in front of the entire class. And it was really hard for Elizabeth because she had a panic attack. And, you know, she does that sometimes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

So this is when Sarah Beth is like, I'm sorry.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

Why does he know all of these intimate details of her life from her period, her history of panic attacks?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Sarah is saying that he's placing himself as the hero in her story. Like, I'm you come to me when you're having the panic attack. You come to me when you're having the fight with the math teacher.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now, everyone, just a reminder, this is meant to make him look innocent to the cops. Just to be clear, the lies, they're never going to right now is supposed to make the cops go, oh, never mind. You're just 14 year old about her period all the time. And don't give me that shit. I'm the health teacher. Stop.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

I do this, I do that. This is the lie that he's using to make himself look good.

[Patrick Hines]

He definitely never, in his mind, at least, even built up a cover story to tell the cops someday should he ever be questioned about it. Like he's flying by the seat of his decision, disgusting pants.

[Julian Bezavali]

This is not someone who thinks a mere centimeter ahead.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julian Bezavali]

And the cops ask him because he's like, I just felt so bad for her. And the cops are like, why? Like, why do you. Why do you feel bad for her? And he goes, because I'm the nicest.

[Patrick Hines]

Guy you're ever gonna encounter.

[Julian Bezavali]

In every situation, Tad Cummings are saying, I'm the greatest guy you'll ever meet. Those are little things that people inadvertently say about themselves when they're really trying to sell themselves as being not a bad guy. And when all that really does is take that, they're probably trying to hide something or they're a bad guy, all.

[Patrick Hines]

That tells us is he's a fucking creepy dirt bat.

[Julian Bezavali]

But he continues, I'm so religious. That means nothing. I'm so amazing. After he heard about this awful situation with the period in the backpack, he.

[Patrick Hines]

Prayed and prayed and prayed.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm not gonna let Satan have her. And God's like, bitch, bitch. Also, now that we're here, God, Yeah. Could you have stepped in God, girl? I know, Look, God, sometimes you just don't come through. I will quote Tori almost all the time with that.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm telling you. You know, I'm a God believer. You know, I'm a prayer. I don't understand why. Why she allows the suffering.

[Julian Bezavali]

I learned free will, okay? Oh, whatever, man.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, but just for a fucking.

[Julian Bezavali]

Minute, for like a second.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

That would be great.

[Patrick Hines]

God. Need the podcast.

[Julian Bezavali]

God, sometimes you just don't come through. We'll call that Tori Emo song.

[Patrick Hines]

We'll call it the Godcast. Come on, come on. Godcast.com.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know the two that they're definitely. Hopefully two gay nuns doing this, right?

[Patrick Hines]

The conviction that you were hoping it was two Gay nuns. I know, I know, I know. It's Sister Mary Frances and Sister Mary Michael.

[Julian Bezavali]

Whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? Absolutely. Running God.

[Julian Bezavali]

Or just Kathy Najimi from Sister Act.

[Patrick Hines]

I'll take that, too.

[Julian Bezavali]

Okay. Anyway, this guy just keeps talking, Sister Mary Michael. Everything he's saying is a red flag. He's telling the cops how he grooms the kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because he can't. He's just like, no, no, no, no.

[Patrick Hines]

You don't understand.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm the safe space.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm the. The adult that they go to. Not at home.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm the cool teacher. They can always talk to me. They're always texting me.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, that stopped me cold.

[Julian Bezavali]

They're able to text me about all the different things going on in the day.

[Patrick Hines]

If I found out that Daisy was texting a teacher once again, I would burn the fucking school down.

[Julian Bezavali]

And again, the health teacher. I know you think he's not using this? What's going on with your body? What are you confused about? You can talk to me about anything. You know, you can't talk to your mom about that weird stuff going on down there. Right? But you can talk to me.

[Patrick Hines]

Talk to me about it. By the. Her mother is like, yeah, you can't talk to me about it.

[Julian Bezavali]

No. You can't talk to me.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? Like, Like. But that's why she's a prime target to be groomed, you know?

[Julian Bezavali]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

You gotta love your kids. You gotta pay attention to your kids.

[Julian Bezavali]

And the cops are just like, everyone play it as cool as possible. He said texting, he's like, digging this hole and it's glorious.

[Patrick Hines]

It's. But, like, the texting is because it also stops the cops dead in their tracks. Right?

[Julian Bezavali]

And they're like, talk more about the texting.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like, totally normal texting.

[Julian Bezavali]

Super normal. That is not an issue for any. Carl, sip it.

[Patrick Hines]

Continue.

[Julian Bezavali]

And he's like, I will continue.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And he goes, well, Beth called my phone and told me that she was gonna speak to police. And I just said, you know what? You tell the cops the truth, everything's gonna be okay. The cops are like, cool story, bro. Can we see your phone? No, I know. He goes, they wanna see the text with Beth. And I'm like. And the other 14 year olds?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, right. And he says. He's like, oh, I don't have those texts still on my. From yesterday. Why not? Because I got rid of it because it may be uncorn. I got rid of that yesterday because it Felt weird to me.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right, But I mean, it may feel weird to you, but you know what it looks like to us, right? Sure. Because they made me uncomfortable.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Julian Bezavali]

Same.

[Patrick Hines]

It was weird.

[Julian Bezavali]

They freaked me out. And I'm like, wait, first of all, this is the weird part, right? Second, don't you see that those texts could maybe help you if they're as innocent as you say, which they could never help you, of course.

[Patrick Hines]

And the cops don't believe him. First. Second. No, you know what I mean? But, like, of course, if you. If I'm a teacher and some kid has gotten my number and has texted me, not only am I saving those text messages, I am showing them to my priest, I am showing them to my husband.

[Julian Bezavali]

You're calling their parents?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

Or you're going to the. Whoever is, like, in charge of driving.

[Patrick Hines]

To the police station to be like, this kid just texted me.

[Julian Bezavali]

I don't know what to do.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? He asked me what the homework was tonight. And I thought he was coming on. Like, I thought it was too much crazy, you know?

[Julian Bezavali]

It's crazy. And. But also, like, in one, in the same breath, everything is totally fine. Nothing to see here. This is very normal to. Oh, those texts made me super uncomfortable. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And so I had to delete them because I couldn't look at them.

[Julian Bezavali]

It was weird. They freaked me out. So he's spiraling, Right? Obviously the cops are also being way too fucking nice to him.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now he's crying. Now he's crying. Poor him. I was just trying to do a nice thing, and now I'm here. Really?

[Patrick Hines]

I know, but this is what Sarah, the prosecutor says. She's like, this is. She's watching the video and she's like, this is the moment he knew he had to do something if he was going to have this girl all to himself. This was the moment he knew he had to do something.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because he goes from nothing to see here to I'm uncomfortable to now he's.

[Patrick Hines]

Crying and I hadn't done anything.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

I ain't done nothing wrong. But I came in here not knowing if I was going to jail.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. He becomes very emotional and basically says that he thought he was going to jail today and that he's very thankful that he's not.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm more afraid than I've ever been in my life. Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

And I felt like at that point, the witness probably did see them kissing.

[Patrick Hines]

Crying out of gratitude for them not throwing him in jail tonight.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now I'm here. I was just trying to do a nice thing.

[Patrick Hines]

So how do you think this guy's gonna do in jail?

[Julian Bezavali]

Not great. Not great.

[Patrick Hines]

Not great.

[Julian Bezavali]

Not great. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

ZBiotics Pre alcohol probiotic is back and better than ever, baby.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. This is that thing that's helping you bounce back after a few drinks. And this is like, we are busy, everyone. We have things to do. I'm not canceling my whole next day because I had a few cocktails.

[Patrick Hines]

No. So listen, the probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. And here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted it into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day.

[Julian Bezavali]

So pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. And this is a proactive solution that wards off feeling miserable the next day instead of a reactive approach like drinking electrolytes or eating greasy food.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, let me tell you, Steve swears by it. He goes to the gym at 7am every Saturday. He's got a standing appointment, so he can still have a couple drinks the night before, take the pre alcohol and feel fine the next morning. So, like, that's one of the reasons he loves it. He swears by it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, it's super easy. You make the pre alcohol like your first drink of the night.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

And you still drink responsibly. You eat, you still have water.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

And then the next day you're kind of like, I'm totally making that 7am gym sesh.

[Patrick Hines]

And he literally does. He never misses it. So, fam. Go to zbiotics.com tco to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use TCO at checkout, Zebiotics.

[Julian Bezavali]

Is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked.

[Patrick Hines]

Remember to head to ZBiotics.com TCO and use code TCO at checkout for 15% off.

[Julian Bezavali]

Thank you, ZBiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times, even if they're at the gym.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

Leave it to Steve to not even relax on a Saturday morning and have to be at the gym at 7.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, never made any sense to me, but now at least he can do it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, that's the. You know what? Let's focus on the positive, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Rocket money is back. We love Rocket Money because Rocket Money fines and cancel Subscriptions you forgot about.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. And my favorite thing about it is the dashboard.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because you can see all of your subscriptions in one place. And you can see how much everything costs. And you can see, even if you're not surprised by a subscription, you can also be like, is this worth it to me? Do I even want this? And then you just click on it and Rocket Money takes care of canceling it. They will even negotiate a lower bill for you.

[Patrick Hines]

Honest to God. So here we go. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and Cancel your unit. 1 of subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bill so you can grow your savings.

[Julian Bezavali]

Do you know I just Learned something?

[Patrick Hines]

Please.

[Julian Bezavali]

85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Steve goes through our credit card statements like a fine tooth comb everywhere. He's like, what is this? I didn't know I had.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, guess what, Steve? Take that off your list. Rocket Money.

[Patrick Hines]

Rocket Money is now doing it for you. Exactly. Exactly. Rocket Money, by the way, has over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to 740 bucks a year when using all of the app's premium features.

[Julian Bezavali]

And what's so great about that is that it's not just $740 of free money, Right? It's like you're taking it back from some jerk you didn't even want to.

[Patrick Hines]

Pay in the first place. That guy whose thing you tried out for the free trial, but then you ended up not liking it.

[Julian Bezavali]

It tastes so much sweeter that you're taking your money back.

[Patrick Hines]

Give it back to me, James.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.

[Julian Bezavali]

Go to RocketMoney.com/Obsessed today.

[Patrick Hines]

That's RocketMoney.com obsessed.

[Julian Bezavali]

RocketMoney.com obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Do it. Cancel it. Get that money back from James.

[Julian Bezavali]

It really makes you feel so organized. It's so good. So, January 23, 2017, the kiss was reported right. February 1, 2017, the piece of shit has his first interview with police. And by March 13, about a month and a half later, Elizabeth Thomas says, I was groomed into leaving. I was in fear of my life.

[Patrick Hines]

Now the one thing I want to say about poor Elizabeth. Elizabeth is it feels to me like she feels like even in this interview, she's got to justify her actions by saying, I was groomed into leaving. It's like, girl, we know. Like, it makes me feel for her. Like, we believe you but we believe you.

[Julian Bezavali]

I. Yeah, I hear that, but I. I think it's good to be normalizing these words and phrases and this is how we talk about it.

[Patrick Hines]

She.

[Julian Bezavali]

She wasn't kidnapped. She was. But she was groomed. Leaving. That's important.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess that's true. Right? Right. I guess. I guess you're right. It just if, to me, if felt like. I don't. I mean, remember, like this interview is going to be over and she's going to have to go to the grocery store and deal with Samantha from down the street. Who doesn't believe her?

[Julian Bezavali]

Samantha, Shut up. Wrong side of history, Samantha. Great.

[Patrick Hines]

Where were you on January 6th, Samantha?

[Julian Bezavali]

I mean, please. So this guy convinced her that leaving with him was her only option.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

Either she lives with him forever somewhere, or people get hurt. He will hurt her, he'll hurt himself, he'll hurt others, her family. And he made it very clear that he would kill someone, quote, if he needed to. He's not taking no for an answer. This guy.

[Patrick Hines]

This is the fucking safe space. Health teacher. You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

Health teacher.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, oh, my God.

[Julian Bezavali]

And Elizabeth Smart says, she goes, look, everyone knows about fight or flight.

[Patrick Hines]

This was so interesting.

[Julian Bezavali]

Everyone knows that term, right? But there's actually freeze and appease as well. And all four of these are natural reactions. Elizabeth Thomas's story portrays that so perfectly, where someone from the outside could look at it and be like, oh, well, she looks like she's going along with it. She looks like it's fine. But actually what she was doing was surviving. She wasn't just like, fine, going along with it. She's surviving, right? She's surviving.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's in her mind at least. And maybe true, she's saving other people. If I just go with him, no one's gonna get hurt. And she's like, I can take care of myself. She's thinking, right?

[Julian Bezavali]

And women everywhere know freeze in a piece.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

So it's like, oh, why don't you tell the guy? No, I'm not going to give your number. I don't know. Because I might be fucking killed later.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know what I mean? So you make up the lie about the fake whoever. You make up what you do, what you have to do to get out of an unsafe situation.

[Patrick Hines]

It is a different planet for men and women.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's a totally different.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I know that that is so fucking obvious. It's, like, annoying to even say out loud, but it just is.

[Julian Bezavali]

It is. You know, it is so. March 13, 2017. Elizabeth Thomas and the piece of shit leave town.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

By March 14, 2017, this piece of shit is reported missing by his wife because she and daughter.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

Calling and texting him and haven't heard back. But he left a note. Don't worry. Yeah, we hear the wife read the note to the cops over the phone.

[Patrick Hines]

Will you. Will you do us the honors?

[Julian Bezavali]

This is her reading the note. Jill, I'm so sorry. I'm on my way to Virginia BEACH or maybe D.C. just to think and clear my mind of all this crap. But I'm not running away. I'm not. I'm not running away. I will be back. Whatever you do, do not call the cops. They're going to think I ran because I'm guilty. And I am not. I am not guilty.

[Patrick Hines]

I am not.

[Julian Bezavali]

I. I love you all. I'll see you soon. Please forgive me. And that's how she ends the. Saying it. Which is such a. Like a human way. I'm sorry.

[Patrick Hines]

How does it end?

[Julian Bezavali]

Cause she goes like. I love you and I'll call you soon. Please forgive me.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

Which is such a way that you, like, read a note to someone.

[Patrick Hines]

This poor wife. Because not only that, he packed every coat he has, but I also noticed he packed all his shorts. Both of his guns are gone. And the $4,000.

[Julian Bezavali]

He bailed. And he was hoping that the stupid note would buy him a day or two.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

Before his wife calls the cops. Jokes on you idiot. She called right away, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

When. When you find out where he tried to go and how he tried to get there. It is unbelievable. Such an idiot.

[Julian Bezavali]

And I really hope his daughters are okay. And I hope he wasn't abusing his wife.

[Patrick Hines]

Same, same, same. And they're not always stupid. This guy is such a fucking moron.

[Julian Bezavali]

He's a moron. So you know who loves that? He's a moron.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Tyler and Sterling.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, Tyler and Sterling are the best.

[Julian Bezavali]

So, Tyler, Stella.

[Patrick Hines]

Sterling's been dealing with that hair all of his life. He's got these really tight blonde ringlets. I think they're gorgeous. You know he hates them.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? They're beautiful, Sterling. You just have to accept them.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right? I think he's accepted.

[Patrick Hines]

You think so? They also like every FBI people we ever meet. They are very calm. You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

Oh, they've seen it all. They're very like. So Tyler Sells is from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. He's the lead agent on the case. And Sterling Wall is special Asian FBI. So they're on high alert because this guy has guns. What is he capable of? They're expecting the worst and hoping for the.

[Patrick Hines]

Because what they make clear is this guy's got a day or two before he's out of cash or before, like, there's a police altercation. And what is he going to do in that moment?

[Julian Bezavali]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

They very worried that he is going to kill Elizabeth.

[Julian Bezavali]

And the day Elizabeth went missing, she told her sister, if I'm not home by 6, call the police. Which is a major red flag.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, thank God she had the foresight to do it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right? Right. But also, this idiot's wife called.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because he left the worst goodbye note.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

The more you say, don't call the cops. I'm coming right back, everything's fine. The less fine it is. Hello?

[Patrick Hines]

What's a note he could have left that could have bought him a day?

[Julian Bezavali]

Nothing.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? Totally. Like, there's nothing that he could have said. You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, I. Back to, I. I'll be right back. I went to buy you whatever. At least I throw some confusion. Haven't you watched an episode of the Traitors once in your life? You need to confuse everybody if you want to buy yourself some time.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I'm just like, yeah. I mean, it was. It was never gonna go well.

[Julian Bezavali]

No. Because if he says, oh, be right back. Went out to buy bread or whatever, at least she'll be like, why? Like, she would wait a few hours. She would call around. But for him to be like, do not call the cops. Everything is fine. I just have to clear my head about this whole abuse thing I've been.

[Patrick Hines]

Doing in Virginia beach or D.C. not sure.

[Julian Bezavali]

Not sure.

[Patrick Hines]

We'll let you know.

[Julian Bezavali]

Shut up. So the cops, like, ping the phones, right? So from the very beginning, when we ping their phones, it was right across the state line in Alabama.

[Patrick Hines]

They traveled south right there on 65.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, of course, we were very excited that now we know in the general direction of where they are.

[Patrick Hines]

But then their phone goes off, and.

[Julian Bezavali]

So there's no more availability to track them. And then they see that the phones.

[Patrick Hines]

Are turned off, and we're gonna learn they're gonna be able to pinpoint the actual spot where they threw them in the river.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, here's the thing that's. I'm sorry to be, like, a bummer.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

But something that really stuck with me.

[Patrick Hines]

Kind of a sad episode.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's horrible.

[Patrick Hines]

You're in good company.

[Julian Bezavali]

But what really stuck with me is that they say the phones were thrown into the river. No, he had Elizabeth throw them off the bridge. So he, like. Which is so cruel because she's throw.

[Patrick Hines]

Way her only connection to the outside world. I know. And hearing her say it, she says that she's like, this was my last connection. Thank God she told her sister to go. I mean, obviously the cops would have been called anyway, but at least in her mind, she knows she said something. At some point, somebody hopefully is going to come looking for me.

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. And Elizabeth Thomas says, you know, she explains that he was sexually assaulting her multiple times a day. She was completely trapped.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she did what she was told to stay alive.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she says that she's like, I know there are so many TV shows and documentaries about women who just are murdered or just go missing, and I didn't want to be one of those people. So she complied. She just did what she had to do to stay alive. So everybody in this fucking town, this is the story. This is what happened.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julian Bezavali]

She's a child and he's an adult also. Exactly. Because she's also thinking, maybe he'd take her back.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

Maybe he'd. It would all be over soon if she just stayed alive. Maybe.

[Patrick Hines]

And I think at that point, you learn to live minute to minute. Like, how do I survive the next minute?

[Julian Bezavali]

And now the cops are on social media looking for clues.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

And this is so crazy to see, because the day before the abduction, the guy posted, you're all my heart ever talk like a meme on Instagram. You're all my heart ever talks about. And like, hashtag strong, unbreakable love. I mean, but Elizabeth posted, too. You know those memes where it's like a quote. Yeah, I'm glad I met you. I hope you know that. Going good. Mission almost completed. So she, like, she is completely groomed and just. He told her, do this or else. And this is why she's doing it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

So the team gets a tip that Elizabeth and this guy are in Oklahoma City, that they checked into some hotel.

[Patrick Hines]

And they also had gone shopping at a Walmart and they're able to get the video. And they see her and they see her alive.

[Julian Bezavali]

Big win.

[Patrick Hines]

And that is like, Sterling and Tyler are like, okay, we know this was a couple of days ago, but still, as of like, two days ago, Elizabeth was alive.

[Julian Bezavali]

And both of these women, Elizabeth Smart and Elizabeth Thomas, are explaining that in both of their situations, they were both too scared to say anything in public.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, you can be looking at this and if you don't know any better, you'd be like, why didn't she run? Why did she signal to the person at Walmart? And like these, both of these Elizabeths, these women are saying, we didn't know what to do, Right? And they knew what he would do to them. They couldn't risk anything. They're 14 years old and they're terrified and it's not their job.

[Patrick Hines]

And Elizabeth Smart says this thing that she was like, you know, I was also just as scared when I was rescued, when the cops showed up.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she says, I didn't necessarily know what the police were capable of, but I definitely knew what my captor was capable of.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

I didn't want to end up dead. I was so scared of dying in his hands that I was too scared to say anything. I'd rather endure this pain that he was giving me versus ending up dead.

[Patrick Hines]

But I knew what my captor was.

[Julian Bezavali]

Capable of, you know, and the FBI guys are like, the public has a really hard time seeing people like this guy as predators. Cause like, oh, he's a teacher. He'd never do that.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's so dopey looking.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he looks like he can't be terrifying, but it's like, well, you weren't groomed by him for a year and a half, right?

[Julian Bezavali]

You know, and the law enforcement guys, the Leos, are just like, no, he's a teacher. He has more opportunity to do something like.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, Right, because they're saying that the predator doesn't always look like the creepy guy in the van. Right. That like the pastor and the camp counselor and the teacher, they've got direct access to your kids. The gymnastics coaches. We always talk about gymnastics coaches. I know that most 99.9% of you are incredible.

[Julian Bezavali]

You know, we've just done like two documentaries on you.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just saying.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know, but it's an. It's an intimate thing. Doctors.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, of course.

[Julian Bezavali]

Very scary. Yeah. Travel down.

[Patrick Hines]

Hey, girl. Ritual is back. Can I tell you something weird?

[Julian Bezavali]

Sure.

[Patrick Hines]

97% of women ages 19 to 50 are not getting enough vitamin D in their diet.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah. So rituals essential for women 18 + was shown to increase vitamin D levels by 43% in a clinical study. That's 43% more than I was getting.

[Patrick Hines]

But you've been on the ritual for forever, so I feel like you're getting all of it.

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes. Because here's what I love about it. It's nine key nutrients and two delayed release capsules per day. And it optimizes your body's absorption for everything else that you're getting.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And it's super gentle on the tummy with a minty essence in every bottle that helps make taking your multis actually enjoyable.

[Julian Bezavali]

And that is funny and cute and silly and we love it. But it's also like people who are into taking multivitamins know that plasticky smell. So disgusting. So the minty essence is like, oh, it's a fun little add on. No, it's actually really important because it's going to make you want to take it every day. You're not going to be like, no gag reflex. It's so delicious and so easy to take.

[Patrick Hines]

I love mentioning this every time too. It is. Yeah. USP verified. So you know you can trust what you're putting in your body. Right? Only 1% of supplement brands on the market have that USP verified mark which shows the product contains the ingredients actually listed on the label. How is that legal?

[Julian Bezavali]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean.

[Julian Bezavali]

Crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

Unreal.

[Julian Bezavali]

And Ritual multivitamins are vegan, non GMO project certified gluten and major allergen free certified B corp and made traceable.

[Patrick Hines]

So fam. No more shady business rituals. Essential for Women 18/plus is a multivitamin you can actually trust.

[Julian Bezavali]

Get 25% off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com tco start.

[Patrick Hines]

Ritual or add Essential for Women 18+ to your subscription today.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's ritual.com tco for 25% off.

[Patrick Hines]

Minty fresh.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's so. It's like genius.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

So this piece of shit's plan was go to California, buy kayaks, kayak to Mexico.

[Patrick Hines]

This is.

[Julian Bezavali]

And from Mexico make their way to South America via kayak.

[Patrick Hines]

It is so unbelievable. It is like they were gonna kayak in the open ocean for 15 miles to get around US Customs at the Mexican border.

[Julian Bezavali]

And that was never gonna work.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, what on earth?

[Julian Bezavali]

And the plan was abandoned in two seconds flat because Elizabeth Thomas talks about.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

Like it just gave me more of a fear of dying, being in the water and you know, during a small boat advisory and the waves being so big we almost capsized a couple times. It was just happening out of my control and I couldn't do anything about it.

[Julian Bezavali]

So now she's terrified because it's the ocean and the water's really rough and they're almost capsizing and this is adding to her stress and her trauma.

[Patrick Hines]

15 miles. That guy doesn't look like he can walk a mile. He's gonna kayak 15 miles.

[Julian Bezavali]

What did I say? This is a guy who does not think one inch ahead. One centimeter ahead.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, the idea is so preposterous.

[Julian Bezavali]

And then. But it's also. You're gonna get eyes on you. Who is that guy? K. Kayaking in the ocean. Does that child need help?

[Patrick Hines]

What's going on over there?

[Julian Bezavali]

Does that child need help? Like, he just gets eyes on you. Which, again, good, thank God. But I'm just saying, like, you're not thinking about this, you idiot. No.

[Patrick Hines]

And. But then if they got to Mexico, they were then going to hitchhike to South America where he had done mission work. They were going to get married. And I was like, can we leave whatever small little town in whatever South American country it is alone? I know these poor fucking people do not want to harbor your disgusting health teacher ass.

[Julian Bezavali]

No. But guess what? So the plan is abandoned. They're out of the kayaks and they head north for some other, like, off the grid place to go. And now they're in the mountains of Northern California.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

And now the story's everywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

It's national news.

[Julian Bezavali]

There are people all over the country know about this. They're seeing their photos. The photos are everywhere. And this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Everyone brace yourselves. Pull over. A tip line works. This guy calls the tip line and he's like, I work at this cabin that's not even fully constructed yet.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julian Bezavali]

And they're squatting in this cabin.

[Patrick Hines]

Now we see the cabin, right? And we're gonna see inside this cabin in a minute. And we're gonna be reminded that one of the ways that this pie shit was able to get her to do what she did was by telling her that he was saving her. Saving her from her horrible home life, her disgusting house with her horrible family.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she. And like all the kids that were mean to her. When you're a kid and you're traumatized, you're kind of like, well, well.

[Patrick Hines]

But we see inside this cabin, the promised land where he took her. It was disgusting. There's no heating, there's no plumbing.

[Julian Bezavali]

Someone else's cabin that they were building.

[Patrick Hines]

It looks like that's. It's where you put the lawnmower. It looks like a. Like a shed in your backyard.

[Julian Bezavali]

That is now imagine that. But now it's half finished.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because the guy who calls says, it. It wasn't even fully constructed yet. It was four walls and a roof. Like, there's nothing to it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Bezavali]

So, like, there's no way they couldn't have stayed there for long.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And so I love that Sterling and Tyler call the guy from the tip line. They're like, girl, are you sure?

[Julian Bezavali]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You positive, girl?

[Julian Bezavali]

And he's like, yes, I'm someone over here.

[Patrick Hines]

And they send the local sheriff, and they fudgeing, get the guy. And we see. This is my favorite part of the whole thing. We see video of this Cummins dirt bag, like, handcuffed and sitting on a rock. And he looks rough. He looks like he hasn't showered in days. He looks like he was just trying to kayak to Mexico.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, he looks it. It's been 39 days. So they get him. 39 days after the abduction, this piece of shit is arrested. And Mary Katherine Elizabeth Thomas is rescued.

[Patrick Hines]

I got to tell you, he looks grateful for having been arrested. He looks like he. Thank fucking God I don't have to do this anymore. God, you know, what an idiot.

[Julian Bezavali]

And so. But Elizabeth Smart says, sure, of course there's relief when you're found. But there's also a lot of fear. Because when law enforcement comes in, that's kind of like throwing in an unknown into the mix. When I was found, my initial relief was fear. All I could think of was, what if the police don't believe me? What if they believe my captors and they don't believe me? What will happen to me? The abductor is the devil you know, right? And now you're thrown into this world that you never thought you'd really be in again, and the world is all out to get you. And now it's terrifying. And what if no one believes me? Or what if I have to go back to this guy? What if he breaks out of jail and he kills me? Because that's what he tells me he's gonna do.

[Patrick Hines]

He does the Jeffrey Dahmer thing. When the cops brought the kid back to Jeffrey Dahmer, the kid that escaped, they brought him back.

[Julian Bezavali]

Or like, Ted Bundy. I'm not making a joke, but, like, jumping out of a second story window, like, sometime. These guys fucking against hope. Against hope. They break out.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Bezavali]

And this is what he's been telling her for 39 days.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

So Elizabeth Thomas also. This is infuriating. She says that the police left them alone at a picnic table.

[Patrick Hines]

This is wild.

[Julian Bezavali]

I don't know why they were allowed to even have a conversation. I know, like, unsupervised. But this guy's telling her to refuse medical care. Yeah, he's still trying to do. He's still trying to control her. He's saying it's over.

[Patrick Hines]

He's like, don't consent to a physical exam. Don't consent to a sexual assault evidence collection kit. Like, nothing that can prove what he's been doing to her.

[Julian Bezavali]

He's telling her to refuse everything and then to lie about how she got the injuries.

[Patrick Hines]

And she tells Elizabeth Smart, you know.

[Elizabeth Thomas]

I had markings on my neck that had healed beforehand, but he had told me that, you know, this is what you're gonna tell people. Like, that I fell off a cliff and he was trying to save me. And that's the reason I had marks on my neck in reality, is because he had choked me so violently, he.

[Patrick Hines]

Was strangling me violently. And Elizabeth Smart has such a visceral reaction to that.

[Julian Bezavali]

And she says. She goes, no one wants to hear this because it makes them uncomfortable, but I don't care. Yes, I'm tired of being quiet about it. Yes, I'm tired of being. And like, this guy was telling her.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm gonna show you the world.

[Julian Bezavali]

I'm rescuing you.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, I'm gonna show you everything. And there's this really sad moment where Sarah, the prosecutor's, like, she got to see the ocean. You know what I mean? And it's one of those things that, like, when you're Elizabeth Thomas, it must be confusing.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's the negotiating against yourself. I never would have been able to see this. It's not that bad, right? Yes, it is. But you get to a point where you're gaslighting yourself and like, well, yeah, my mom was mean. I told. Told my sister to call the cops, not my mother.

[Patrick Hines]

Right, exactly.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, what do I have back there anyway? And that. And then suddenly you say, that he says it to you, and you say it to yourself, and you're isolated, and then you're like, well, what's so bad about this anyway?

[Patrick Hines]

Then I'm like, if the plan had worked and they kayaked in Mexico and they hitchhiked to South America, was she really gonna marry him and live with him in some village somewhere?

[Julian Bezavali]

I know, like, against her will. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julian Bezavali]

But, like, you can understand, hopefully, if you have empathy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

That you could see why she'd think, well, of course. To stay alive.

[Patrick Hines]

But that's why they pick these victims, you know?

[Julian Bezavali]

Right. So this piece of shit pleads guilty, which means there won't be a trial, which is amazing news for Elizabeth Thomas, because that's also very traumatizing.

[Patrick Hines]

It is amazing news for Elizabeth Thomas, and if that's what she wanted, then great. But now the town looks at her and they're like, well, you're an able bodied young. They think of her as a young woman even though she doesn't. Right. She's 14, 15. You could have run out of the car, you could have in the Walmart. You could have asked for help.

[Julian Bezavali]

Well, I think that's why she's doing it now.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

She. It wasn't right for her to do it then and I'm sure.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And I'm not saying you wait until you're ready, of course, but it just. If I were move out of that town, like I just hate the chance to live there.

[Julian Bezavali]

No. So he was sentenced to 20 years in prison and Mary Catherine Elizabeth Thomas. I just want to say all her names because sometimes some people call her by Mary Catherine and saying Elizabeth Thomas. But she's fine. Like she's getting to a point where she's like, I didn't do anything wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like fudge everyone else. It wasn't her fault.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

This awful community that was victim blaming her. She's like, I'm not a bad person.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Bezavali]

I didn't ruin the cool teacher. He was never the cool teacher to begin with. She didn't do anything wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

And until she has therapy and mental health services, maybe she's starting to think, yeah, they're right. I could have run away. Why didn't I run away? She had to be therapized into understanding that she was groomed and finding love.

[Julian Bezavali]

Because she says there is love after trauma.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh my God.

[Julian Bezavali]

She got married to Skyler on June 15, 2019. She's wearing in the photos this super cute dress and Converse.

[Patrick Hines]

They can't look at each other without getting the church giggles.

[Julian Bezavali]

The two of them, he says, completely enthralled.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm obsessed with him. He says, I'm trying to be the best man I can be for her to hold her up when she's feeling low and make her feel like the Queen of England and you know.

[Julian Bezavali]

Make.

[Patrick Hines]

Her feel like the most important woman in the world. Like there's no other person that could take my heart away from hers. Make her feel like the Queen of England.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's right, Skyler.

[Patrick Hines]

I love that.

[Julian Bezavali]

That's right, Skyler. And they just, they're just totally in love with each other. They have the giggles. They can't stop laughing. The photos are so cute.

[Patrick Hines]

Be the Skyler you want to see in the world. Everybody.

[Julian Bezavali]

And like. And then Elizabeth's like with that support.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

He's helping her be there for other survivors. Just like Elizabeth Smart. Which Is like, why we were all here to begin with, why we did this sad, uncomfortable thing. But, like, you got it. Sometimes you got to look.

[Patrick Hines]

You got to look at, you know, Elizabeth Smart is saying to her in the end, like, Elizabeth Thomas is saying to Elizabeth Smart, I want to change the world. I want to do what you're doing. I want to be an advocate and an activist. And Elizabeth Smart is saying, like, you're going to do it.

[Julian Bezavali]

You're doing it.

[Patrick Hines]

You're doing it right now.

[Julian Bezavali]

Agreeing to sit down or feeling ready to. I want to use the right words, the most respectful words there are. She's doing it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Bezavali]

Like, these two women are amazing. And it's like they both sort of came together to bring what they could offer in this moment where Elizabeth Smart sort of gave Elizabeth Thomas this really. This is the true safe space that she needed. And now she has it. Now we're here, and Skylar, keep it.

[Patrick Hines]

Up, keep it up, keep it up, keep it up. Oh, my God, girl. We did.

[Julian Bezavali]

It's the Elizabeth Thomas story with Elizabeth Smart.

[Patrick Hines]

In eight years, I've never known the name of it. At the end. I've never known.

[Julian Bezavali]

I know you've been better at it the last few weeks. I was thinking, oh, you must have written it in his notes.

[Patrick Hines]

I didn't. Oh, my God. Fam. Join the Facebook group. Over 59,000 people in the group sharing memes just like suggesting docs. That's where we tell you what we're up to. That's where we sort of hang out with you.

[Julian Bezavali]

And like we were saying earlier, a lot of people, if you just moved somewhere or you're feeling lonely or you're going through a breakup, friend breakup, relationship, breakup, whatever. Like, just give a shout, and I promise you you'll get a response.

[Patrick Hines]

You will find hundreds of people that just want to be your pal. Yeah, girl. What are we doing next?

[Julian Bezavali]

So we are doing a 2020 episode. It's called A Puzzling Murder, but it's really. It's the Murder of Lena Mcclinton. So it's season 47, episode 6. It's a really important episode, a really important story.

[Patrick Hines]

Did you say the prosecutor is doing a puzzle the whole time?

[Julian Bezavali]

Yes, he loves puzzles, and it helps. Helps him figure out the case. And so he's doing a puzzle with Deborah Roberts the whole time. And wait till we see what the end of the puzzle is.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Deborah Roberts.

[Julian Bezavali]

We, like, pan out on it, and we, like, see what he's been putting together this whole time. This guy is, like, he gets to the bottom of it.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, 2020, we're with you, so stay tuned for the trailer for that fam. And we love you.

[Julian Bezavali]

We love you. See you next week.

[Patrick Hines]

All right. Bye.

[Julian Bezavali]

Bye. This is a true murder mystery. Emphasis on murder. Emphasis on mystery. I felt like Lita's murder case looks like a true crime story, but it goes a lot deeper. Who would kill this woman?

[Patrick Hines]

She wasn't robbed. Somebody came to the door with roses and shot her dead.

[Julian Bezavali]

Was there a feeling that this had to be pretty calculated?

[Patrick Hines]

She was shot with a 9 millimeter semiautomatic handgun. No obvious.

[Julian Bezavali]

Was she at all concerned about the fact that she was in an interracial marriage and that this was a difficult.

[Patrick Hines]

Time in the South?

[Julian Bezavali]

It was not a welcoming place for a black woman to live. She said, I'm done.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm packing up my stuff. I want you to see the puzzle.

[Julian Bezavali]

When I put it together and I show it to you, you'll never forget it.

[Patrick Hines]

Your wife's best friend has been murdered.

[Julian Bezavali]

And police are looking at.