415: The Murder of Lita McClinton: From 20/20

Summary

True Crime Obsessed - Episode 415 Summary: The Murder of Lita McClinton: From 20/20

In Episode 415 of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Julia Penzavalli and Patrick Hines delve into the harrowing and complex case of Lita McClinton, exploring the multifaceted layers of her murder and the ensuing quest for justice. This episode masterfully blends true crime storytelling with humor, sass, and heartfelt commentary, providing listeners with both depth and entertainment.

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1. Introduction and Community Building

The episode kicks off with Julia and Patrick announcing the launch of their Discord community alongside their existing Facebook group. They emphasize creating a moderated space for fans to engage on various topics, from book clubs to pet discussions.

• Julia [00:23]: "We're launching a Discord, and we're very excited about this now."
• Patrick [00:35]: "If you're into that kind of thing, great. We just wanted an alternative place for community and for everyone to hang out."

Note: Advertisement segments interspersed throughout the transcript have been omitted to maintain focus on the core content.

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2. Overview of the Lita McClinton Case

The primary focus shifts to the murder of Lita McClinton, originally featured on the 20/20 series. Lita's life, her influential family background, and the circumstances surrounding her tragic death are meticulously recounted.

• Patrick [01:30]: "This is an episode of 2020. It's called a Puzzling Murder. It is about the murder of Lita McClinton."
• Clint Rucker [01:43]: "I felt like Lita's murder case looks like a true crime story, but it goes a lot deeper."

---

3. Lita's Background and Marriage

Lita McClinton, a respected member of the Buckhead community in Atlanta, hailed from a family of significant social standing. Her parents, Emory and Joanne McClinton, were influential figures in transportation and state legislature, respectively. Despite familial expectations to pursue a political career, Lita's passion lay in the fashion industry.

• Clint Rucker [05:00]: "She feels very personally connected to her."
• Julia [09:09]: "Lita grew up going to Cotillons, like, very posh and upper class."

Lita's interracial marriage to Jim Sullivan, a white man from Boston, introduced racial tensions that would later intersect with her murder investigation.

• Patrick [08:48]: "It was the case when Lita was growing up in the 50s and 60s. It was the case when she was murdered in the 80s. And it is still the case today."
• Clint Rucker [09:20]: "This was not a welcoming place for a black woman to live."

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4. The Murder and Immediate Aftermath

On a cold Atlanta morning in 1987, Lita was brutally murdered by a man with a gun who arrived bearing roses. The attack was sudden and executed with chilling precision, leaving few clues.

• Patrick [03:08]: "And now her BFF Poppy is at the house with her three-year-old daughter."
• Julia [03:32]: "He kept comforting her and telling her everything was going to be okay."

Lita's selfless act of comforting the police officer, even in her final moments, underscored her compassionate nature.

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5. Investigation Complications: Race and Privilege

The investigation revealed underlying racial dynamics, as Lita's interracial marriage placed her in the crosshairs of societal prejudices prevalent in the 1970s and 80s Georgia.

• Patrick [08:48]: "It was a time where some black people were ascending."
• Julia [09:28]: "Lita's parents are emory and Joanne McClinton. They were both, quote, power players."

Despite mounting evidence against Jim Sullivan, his wealth and social standing complicated the pursuit of justice, highlighting issues of white privilege and systemic bias.

• Yvette Miller [19:41]: "Why didn't she ever have access to all this money? That is a major red flag for her."

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6. Key Evidence and Suspects

The presence of roses at the crime scene became a pivotal piece of evidence, leading investigators to the Botany Bay Flower Shop. Multiple individuals were identified, complicating the suspect pool.

• Clint Rucker [46:22]: "Detectives know they're looking for at least two men."
• Patrick [46:46]: "We have three separate people being described. None of them are Jim, the husband."

Jim Sullivan emerged as the primary suspect due to his direct connection to Lita and the financial motives tied to their strained marriage.

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7. Legal Battles and Overcoming Obstacles

The trial showcased the challenges faced by prosecutors in holding a wealthy perpetrator accountable. Clint Rucker's affinity for puzzles symbolized his methodical approach to unraveling the case, yet systemic barriers hindered the pursuit of justice.

• Clint Rucker [08:10]: "When I'm putting together a puzzle, not only in real life, but also a murder case, I make an assessment about what it is I'm working with."
• Patrick [70:14]: "He was rich. He was white. And I have to say, race always permeates a case, and it definitely did in this case."

Despite compelling evidence and witness testimonies, the jury was initially swayed by Sullivan's legal representation, leading to prolonged legal battles.

• Julia [56:15]: "Because one year, a Christmas card comes. This idiot. A Christmas card comes."

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8. Resolution and Reflections

After an extended legal struggle, Jim Sullivan was eventually convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment without parole. However, the case left lingering questions about incomplete investigations and the influence of race and privilege in the justice system.

• Clint Rucker [71:20]: "This is a woman who you never met. I've never met most of the people involved in this case. Never met her. And yet her life really made an impact."

The episode concludes with a poignant reflection on Lita McClinton's enduring legacy and the societal implications surrounding her untimely death.

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9. Closing Remarks and Future Content

Julia and Patrick wrap up the episode by teasing upcoming content, including another true crime documentary on Lisa Frank. They reiterate their commitment to community engagement through their newly launched Discord channel, inviting listeners to join and participate.

• Patrick [73:35]: "We're doing that thing where we do it in two."
• Julia [73:38]: "And we love y'all."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Clint Rucker [01:43]: "I felt like Lita's murder case looks like a true crime story, but it goes a lot deeper."
• Patrick [08:10]: "When I'm putting together a puzzle, not only in real life, but also a murder case, I make an assessment about what it is I'm working with."
• Yvette Miller [19:41]: "Why didn't she ever have access to all this money? That is a major red flag for her."
• Clint Rucker [71:20]: "This is a woman who you never met. I've never met most of the people involved in this case. Never met her. And yet her life really made an impact."

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Conclusion

Episode 415 of True Crime Obsessed offers a compelling exploration of the Lita McClinton case, highlighting the intersection of race, privilege, and the pursuit of justice. Through detailed storytelling and insightful analysis, Julia and Patrick shed light on the complexities that can hinder legal resolutions, ensuring that Lita McClinton's story remains remembered and her legacy honored.

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For those interested in diving deeper into this case or discussing it further, Julia and Patrick encourage joining their Discord community through the link provided in the show notes.

Transcript

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, this one's a real twisty turny.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So much happens in this one. This is a bonkers, bonkers episode.

[Patrick Hines]

And there's an actual puzzle. I can't stress how much I love that.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Are you a puzzle person?

[Patrick Hines]

No, but I love that Clint is.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Julia Penzavalli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Girl, we gotta jump right in because we've got an announcement.

[Patrick Hines]

What is it?

[Julia Penzavalli]

So, fam, we promised you a Facebook group. Alternative.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right. So we are launching a Discord, and we are very excited about this now. Very little, though. I'm getting up to speed quickly.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we both. We're both in there.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, we're both in there. There's a link in the show notes. To sign up for the Discord, we'll put it in the Facebook group as well. It's going to be heavily moderated by Sasha and a couple of other people that we're bringing in. It's just another place for you to go and sort of, like, hang out. And the way that I understand that it works is, like, it's more like channels than one, like, big group feed. So if you want to talk about the book club, for example, there's a book club channel. If you want to talk about this week's episode, there's a this week's episode channel. If you want to talk about dogs, there'll be a dog show.

[Patrick Hines]

Like a pets channel. Yeah, I'm into it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I'm into it, too.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm excited. So, everyone, if you're into that kind of thing, great. We just wanted an alternative place for community and for everyone to hang out.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And, like, the Facebook group is going nowhere. I love the Facebook group. I will be in there all the time still. But it's, you know, this is just another place. I will be in both of them, but the Discord exists, and I cannot wait to, like, grow and learn together.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a brand new day.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's a brand new day.

[Patrick Hines]

So join us, won't you? Or not. Whatever. Whatever you want to do.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You're not bullying anybody. You're just inviting them nicely.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm trying my best. Come hang, girl.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What are we talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

So this is an episode of 2020. It's called a Puzzling Murder. It is about the murder of Lita McClin. This is a true murder mystery. Emphasis on murder. Emphasis on mystery.

[Clint Rucker]

I felt like Lita's murder case looks like a true crime story, but it goes a lot deeper.

[Patrick Hines]

Who would kill this woman?

[Julia Penzavalli]

She wasn't robbed. Somebody came to the door with roses and shot her dead.

[Patrick Hines]

Was there a feeling that this had to be pretty calculated?

[Julia Penzavalli]

She was shot with a 9 millimeter semiautomatic handgun.

[Patrick Hines]

No obvious suspect. Was she at all concerned about the fact that she was in an interracial marriage and that this was a difficult.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Time in the South?

[Clint Rucker]

It was not a welcoming place for a black woman to live?

[Patrick Hines]

She said, I'm done. I'm packing up my stuff.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I want you to see the puzzle. When I put it together and I show it to you, you'll never forget it.

[Patrick Hines]

Your wife's best friend has been murdered and police are looking at you.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So we get all the details of this crime really quickly and sort of right up front. So we learn. It's a cold, drizzly Atlanta morning in 1987. Lita McClinton is asleep in her gorgeous townhouse. Her best friend Poppy and Poppy's daughter are also there. They're asleep in another room. And then a little after 8 in the morning, the doorbell rings. And Lita goes down to answer it. She looks through the peephole and she sees a delivery person with a huge box of flowers. We're told she might not have answered were it not for the flowers. But as soon as she opens the door to take the flowers, this delivery person pulls a gun and shoots her twice in the head.

[Patrick Hines]

And now her BFF Poppy is at the house with her three year old daughter. So she hears this. Yeah, there's a neighbor who sees a guy running out of the housing complex. And the neighbor calls 911. This neighbor ends up being incredibly important in the story. And when the cops arrive, this is so heartbreaking. That police officer ends up holding Lita's hand. They thought Lita was completely unconscious, and yet she managed to squeeze his hand.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He kept comforting her and telling her everything was going to be okay.

[Patrick Hines]

And he said it was her comforting him.

[Julia Penzavalli]

She was doing that to comfort me, knowing she was dying. Like just her last moments. And she was just like in this.

[Patrick Hines]

Like selfless, just a compassionate.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Now Lita is rushed to the hospital. The doctors could not save her. And Lita dies 30 minutes later. Now Em, Yvette Miller is here and she's Lita's friend. She will be with us throughout. She's awesome.

[Julia Penzavalli]

She's amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

And she says the thing about Lita is that, that she drew people in. She had a lot of friends. She was a great person. Yeah, she was really, really big in the community.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Everyone loves her. I mean, it's one of Those where we get just a roundtable of everybody that we're going to meet. Everyone just has nothing but glowing nice things to say about her.

[Patrick Hines]

And Lita lived in the exclusive Buckhead neighborhood in Atlanta.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, that neighborhood is beautiful.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like all mansions. It's a very rich area. We're told, like, shootings just don't happen here.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So the neighborhood is on edge because, remember, now there's a mad shooter on.

[Patrick Hines]

The loose, ran away of the complex. And we're like, what?

[Julia Penzavalli]

In broad daylight? That always gets me.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. So here's the evidence at the scene. There's a bullet fragment. There are two shell casings. And the box of roses is actually really important because two shots from a 9 millimeter gun went through the box of roses.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. And, you know, the story is obviously all over the news. It's like a shooting and a murder in this, like, really wealthy suburb. You know, it's just horrible. It's all over the news. We meet Deb Miller Landau. This woman wrote the book on this case.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And she is pretty sassy throughout. Like, I. I kind of love. When we come back to Deb, the.

[Patrick Hines]

Book is called A Devil Went down to Georgia.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. This case is really personal to her because she's been covering it, you know, since 2004, which, remember, this crime happened in 1988.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And she's covering it in 2004. And she's so deep into the story that she writes a book about it. And she, you know, obviously she didn't know Lita, but she. She feels very personally connected to her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. She spoke to everyone that Lita knew, so, yeah, it feels personal.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But this is where we learned that prosecutor Clint loves puzzles. Tell us everything.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, Clint Rucker's here. He's a former ADA in Fulton County. This case is very personal to him also, but he loves puzzles and actually helps him with his work as a prosecutor. And I love this so much because he's here with this big puzzle on his desk, and he's, like, putting the pieces together while talking to Deborah Roberts. Right. Deborah Roberts is covering this case. He's explaining to her, like, how the puzzles connect him to his job. Cannot stress.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's. So puzzles are the thing I think that I will love. We once got a 1000 piece puzzle, and we have this chest of drawers in our hallway, and I decided I was gonna, like, just put all the pieces out there, and Daisy and I were gonna slowly do it over weeks. About three months later, Steve just, like, swooped it all into the chest That' I know.

[Patrick Hines]

If you don't have a dedicated table, it's too much.

[Julia Penzavalli]

A dedicated. My mom used to do puzzles and then glue them to like, things and hang them on the wall. No.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what? Good. She worked hard on them.

[Julia Penzavalli]

She's a lesbian. You know, we were. We were wanting for art taste in our house growing up.

[Patrick Hines]

Worked hard on it. I say great. Put up those puzzles.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Which is not to say that lesbians can't have amazing taste in art, because I know that that is true. But in our home, we did not believe in taste in art. We were.

[Patrick Hines]

Apple does not fall far.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's exactly right. Thank you so much.

[Patrick Hines]

Travel down the road.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Back again, girl. Ancient Nutrition is back. Look, the body is a wonderland, if I may say so.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my goodness.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And to think about Ancient Nutrition. Ancient Nutrition is on a mission to create high quality supplements that combine the best of ancient wisdom and modern science. I mean, we'll never stop learning how we can, like, treat our bodies better, right?

[Patrick Hines]

That's right. Every day's a school day. And Ancient Nutrition's Multi Collagen Advanced lean supplement contains 10 types of collagen from 10 real food based sources.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And girl, they're comparing this collagen to the fountain of youth. Like, we've never found the fountain of youth, but we did find collagen.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, we found it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Taking the years off.

[Patrick Hines]

This formula is powered by clinically studied ingredients that promotes fat loss and healthy weight management as well as building lean muscle. I love that.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know. And collagen can also help reduce joint discomfort and improve the look and growth of your skin, hair and nails.

[Patrick Hines]

Plus, Ancient Nutrition's Multi Collagen Advanced Lean is delicious and easy to work into your daily routine by mixing it into your morning coffee or your favorite smoothie.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I've been mixing it into my morning coffee and I got to tell you, it's like a great little way to start the day. I know that I'm doing the right thing for my bod. The hair, the nails.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The hips. The hips, the heels.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure. And right now, Ancient Nutrition is offering 25% off your first order when you go to ancient nutrition.com TCO that's ancientnutrition.com.

[Julia Penzavalli]

TCO for 25% off your first order.

[Patrick Hines]

Ancientnutrition.com TCO like, it's ancient, but it's modern.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's ancient, but it's modern because like you said, every day at school, they were always learning about how to take care better care of ourselves.

[Patrick Hines]

So Clint says in Both cases and puzzles.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He says, when I'm putting together a puzzle, not only in real life, but also a murder case, I make an assessment about what it is I'm working with. I start to identify pieces of the puzzle that are foundational.

[Patrick Hines]

He identifies the pieces that are foundational.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

That's how he works with puzzles. That's how he works with his cases.

[Julia Penzavalli]

All right, do it quick. Don't fuck us on this, Clint.

[Patrick Hines]

And he doesn, but he tells us, look, there was a lot of pressure on Lita. And he says black women need to be exceptional in order to be seen.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It was the case when Lita was growing up in the 50s and 60s. It was the case when she was murdered in the 80s. And it is still the case today.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It is, and it shouldn't be the case. But guess what? Lita's parents are also exceptional.

[Patrick Hines]

They are.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know what I mean? They shouldn't have to be, but they just happen to be.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because we learned, like, Deborah Roberts grew up in Georgia, so this case is personal to her, too. Like, everyone sitting here either spent a lot of time on this case, or it means a lot to them or it's happening in their hometown. Like Deborah Roberts.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. Alita's parents are emory and Joanne McClinton. They were both, quote, power players. Emory was on the state board of Transportation. Joanne was in the state legislature. She would talk about, like, interpersonal meetings she'd had with Martin Luther King. Like, she was in the room with him when he was, like, leading meetings. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And like Deborah Roberts says, she explains that in the 70s, where she grew up, she says this place was still emerging from the shadows of segregation and racial tension.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And lawyer Clint says, like, this was a time, Atlanta in the 70s, like, this was a time where some black people were. He uses the word ascending. And so social circles and professionally, this was the case for Lita's parents.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. Lita grew up going to Cotillons, like, very posh and upper class. I was like, we had a different grown up experience leader. I was not invited to a single cotillion. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Joanne, Lita's mom was Maynard Jackson's campaign manager when he ran for mayor and won.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He was the 54th mayor of Atlanta.

[Patrick Hines]

So, yeah, these. She's in very important rooms. They're both. They call them like power players and like movers and shakers in Atlanta in the 70s.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And. But, like, there's got to be a lot of pressure growing up their daughter. Right. So, like, that was like. Like she was very happ and well adjusted. Her parents, like, loved her, but, you know, there was expectation on her. Her family really wanted her to go into politics. She was not interested.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And the timing is really important. It's the seventies. The civil rights movement was, like, yesterday.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right? Exactly. Her mom knew Martin Luther King.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's all, like. There's a lot of pressure for Lita to, like, continue the legacy of this family.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. Well, she goes to Spelman College.

[Clint Rucker]

After high school, she went on to Spelman College. Her parents sort of hoped that she would enter the political arena like they were. But she was very much into fashion.

[Julia Penzavalli]

She wants to go into fashion. And she has got a job working at a boutique in Lenox Square.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And this boutique is where she meets Jim Sullivan.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's a white guy. He's about 10 years older. She's 24 years old at the time.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But everyone says she was just totally smitten.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And they described, like, how he just showered her with, like, gifts and attention. Like, he just, like, zoomed in on her, like, the second he met her.

[Patrick Hines]

Love bombed her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Love bombed bomb.

[Patrick Hines]

We didn't have that term in the 70s, but that's what we're dealing with here.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. And, you know, another difference they explained between them was class. Like, she was raised in atlant Atlanta society. He was raised on, quote, the gritty streets of Boston. South side. Nobody calls it the south side. It's South.

[Patrick Hines]

He's from Southie, went to Holy Cross, got a degree in economics. And people are like, all of that is fine. That's not bad.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But you hate Holy Cross.

[Patrick Hines]

My best friend went to Holy Cross. I spent many a weekend there.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Did you really?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know Holy Cross.

[Patrick Hines]

I am worldly.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's Worcester.

[Patrick Hines]

And by the way, but it's spelled like Worcester.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So all that is fine. But we learn very early. He always wanted to be a rich person. So that might have been part of the reasons why he, like, set his sights on Lita. Because she was this high class.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. Clearly was a girl who came from money. But. But this guy inherits a thriving liquor distributorship from his uncle worth $3.2 billion. I said, what, in the Monopoly?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, right.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Uncle dies, leaves you $3.2 million in booze. Doesn't get better.

[Patrick Hines]

Crown Beverages.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, suddenly he's got money, and he's.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, great, my dream has come true. He was just handed all of this money. He didn't work for it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Can I tell you, I did the conversion of, like, what, $2 million from 1970 to 2025. That's like $40 million. So, like, that is an insane. It's the buying power of $40 million.

[Patrick Hines]

Also. It was a thriving business, so there was room to grow.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You can't go wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Why did we do this? Instead of opening a liquor store, should we open a liquor store?

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Are you sure? Yes. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I think we should leave it to the professionals.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What would we call it?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. Any number of our bar names. I'd rather go into the bar business than the liquor. The liquor store is like that. Get on your way to the fun part. I guess the liquor store is like.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We'll call our liquor store the fun part.

[Patrick Hines]

The fun part.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's what our liquor store is going to be called.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you going to work at the register?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Maybe. I'm good with customers.

[Patrick Hines]

That's true. You are.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know what I mean.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, Lena's parents are not thrilled.

[Clint Rucker]

So when the McClintons met Jim for the first time, they were like, who is this guy? He had this kind of manner that was very uncouth and brash. And they were sort of mystified about what their daughter saw in him.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He's a dirtbag from the jump. You know what I mean? Like, he's got it. Look. And I will give it to the guy. He's got a great head of hair. He's got. Look. I'm not like, this is not a sexualization. This is a me wishing I had hair like this. There are those older. There are those men who never lose their hair. And he's one of those guys. That's the only thing he's got going for him.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, Lita was an incredibly smart and successful woman, and he turned on the charm for her. It was there for him to turn on, but her parents really did not like him.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And Deborah Roberts is like, huh? There's also the issue of race, which cannot be ignored because she's like, yes. Everyone was watching TV's first interracial couple on the Jeffersons.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But I looked this up. The new Georgia encyclopedia says by 1965, sweeping federal civil rights legislation prohibited segregation and discrimination. And this new phase of race relations was first officially welcomed into Georgia by Governor Jimmy Carter in 1971. This is the 70s now.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This just happened.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, they're gonna say at some point in here that it was only 10 years before that the law banning interracial marriage was struck down.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So, like, this was happen happening in 1971. We're in the 70s now, like. And we're in Georgia. I know it's Atlanta, but, like, there's still a lot here. And Deborah Roberts really hits that point home. Like, race is a factor here.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, and of course, but. And it would be a factor today even. You know what I mean? But it would be one thing if they, like, loved each other. And, like. Like, he was like. Like in it, didn't care, was gonna fight the fight, you know, he's just a dirtbag. He's just not like that.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing is, everything is fine. Like, no one knows that yet, except for Lita's parents, because they clocked him. But when Jim proposes to Lita, her parents are like, you can't marry this man. Please don' Marry him. But Lita says yes.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. And like, to her parents credit, they don't do any of that. Like, cutting her out of the will, throwing her out of the family.

[Patrick Hines]

What are you gonna do? You know? Like. And he's charming enough, I guess, sometimes, but they're like, there's something off about this guy.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And everything's going fine. Except the night before her wedding, Jim drops, like, seven major bombs on Lita.

[Clint Rucker]

He tells Lita that he has been married before and that he has four children. Lita was shocked.

[Patrick Hines]

And then the very same night, Jim Sullivan blindsides his bride to be again.

[Clint Rucker]

He whips out a piece of paper and he says, can you sign this? And then she looks down and sees that he's drawn up a prenuptial agreement.

[Patrick Hines]

He presents Lita with a prenup.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And it says that if they ever got divorced, Lita would get nothing.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

This is the night before their wedding. Everything is paid for, everything is set up. She's getting married in hours. And he sprayed all of this on her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

She's had to fight her family in order for this wedding to happen. Like, Leeta is all in. She's leading with her heart. She also doesn't fucking need his money. You know what I mean? Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like all of the. He was trying to hide the red flags for all this time and hours before they get married, he, like, shows her all the red flags. And he trapped her. And it worked because she gets married the next day.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right. By the way, the four kids that we never meet or hear about ever again, anything about. I'm like, are they even real?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, probably. I'm sure. This other woman.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Not a fake lie that you make up to, like to see if she'll stick around. Four kids.

[Patrick Hines]

The night before the wedding.

[Julia Penzavalli]

If Ryan Philippe dropped that on me, I would have some questions.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I'm not sure I'd go through with it.

[Patrick Hines]

That's serious.

[Julia Penzavalli]

If I'm being right, another one of those guys with that head of Harry's never going to lose.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, we'll see. We'll see what happens. They get married in 1976. Lita's mother would eventually describe that day as the worst day of her life. And, I mean, I think even that was the case, regardless of what happened to Lita. Yeah, I think they just hated him so much, and they knew this was wrong for her. And he trapped her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, not only did he trap her, he then moves her away from her family.

[Patrick Hines]

So he moves her to Macon, Georgia, 80 miles away from Lita's home in Atlanta. And, like, things are very different in Macon, Georgia. They did not get the civil rights memo. I think it got lost in the mail.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No. And it's like a very wealthy neighborhood called Shirley Hills. It's, quote, the white part of Macon, Georgia. And so, like, Lita gives up her job and her income. He doesn't want her working.

[Patrick Hines]

Remember what the prenup says?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly. Then she like, exactly.

[Clint Rucker]

But also, Joanne and Emory McClinton feared for their daughter. Being part of an interracial couple in Macon, Georgia, in the 1970s would have been extraordinarily challenging. The neighbors, like, you have the gall to bring a black wife to Shirley Hills. People threw garbage on their doorstep.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Garbage on their doorstep. Garbage.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, these ignorant townspeople made it very clear that they were bigots and racists and that Lita wasn't welcome there. Imagine how scary and lonely that must have been for her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Especially when you're at home all day with nothing to do. Like, she doesn't have a job. She's not raising the kids. Like. Like, she's just sitting around the house in a neighborhood where people hate her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, well, Lena's too awesome. And she makes friends anyway.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like Yvette. Travel down the road.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Back again, girl. Helix is back. These are the mattresses that we've been sleeping on for years that have completely changed our lives.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I used to be a sleeper that didn't sleep very well, and I didn't know how I was going to get the help. But I'm telling you, I took this Helix sleep quiz.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, that's what it's all about. That's how they figure out the best mattress for you and your sleep partner.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So Mike took it, too, because I'd, like, toss and turn. I would Sleep hot. I want this. I want that. And the thing is, no matter who you are sleeping with in your bed.

[Julia Penzavalli]

None of our business, by the way.

[Patrick Hines]

None of business. But you should be sleeping well and have a good night's sleep. And then they tell you what mattress is best for you. And we got the midnight Lux, and we love it. And Fiona, our dog, loves it too.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We are sleeping better than we ever have in our lives.

[Patrick Hines]

And because of that, you're waking up refreshed and you're having a decent next day.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Instead of waking up, like, all groggy or your back hurting or whatever, it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Does make getting out of bed harder because it's so nice and comfy.

[Patrick Hines]

You know who springs out of bed every morning because she slept so well?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Fiona.

[Patrick Hines]

Fiona.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I'm like, who's the other lady in your bed, Fiona?

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, you slept really well. You are very rested. It's very cute. She's like, let's go.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I want Fiona to take the sleep qu.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. She's like, I'm good.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So, fam. Get in on the action. Sleep as well as Fiona.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Go to helixsleep.com tco for 27% off site wide, plus two free dream pillows with mattress purchase.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Come on.

[Patrick Hines]

Plus the free bedding bundle. That's two dream pillows, a sheet set, and a mattress protector with any luxe or elite mattress order. So one more time, because I know that's a lot of information, go to helixsleep.com tco for 27% off site, one wide, plus two free dream pillows with mattress purchase, plus the free bedding bundle, which is two dream pillows, a sheet set, and a mattress protector with any luxe or elite mattress order.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's helix sleep.com tco to get all the stuff that Jillian just said twice.

[Patrick Hines]

So Yvette Miller is here, though.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And she says, and with no shade at all, really? She's like, here's the thing. Lita could never pay for lunch. Yvette always picking up the tab. And the reason she's saying that is because they were rich.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, Lita percent afford lunch with Yvette.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But why didn't. Like, if that's like, why didn't she ever have access to all this money? Like, that is a major red flag for her. Because he had the money and she.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Doesn'T have a job.

[Patrick Hines]

And so she's like, why wasn't he giving her any access to this money so that we could go for lunch.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And then we learn how cheap he was. This Guy, he's a millionaire. But Deb. Deb, the author, who is, like, particularly bothered by this because it's awful.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it's the worst kind of cheapo when you're rich.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

To be a cheapo when you're rich.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He would wear. Remember he inherited his business from his dead uncle. He's wearing his. Deb. Dead uncle's clothes everywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

Instead of buying a new suit, he's wearing his dead uncle's old suits. And then not for, like. Oh, it's like. It's not charming. Don't. No. It's not a good thing. This guy's an asshole.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No. He would also use the plastic wrap from dry cleaning as Saran Wrap for food in the kitchen.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Like, imagine unwrapping your dry cleaning and being like, I'm going to save. Even Steve Tipton doesn't do this.

[Patrick Hines]

Even Steve. And, you know.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And you know, what's the.

[Patrick Hines]

What's the most out of bat where you were like, Steve, girl. Really?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Okay. I mean, I've broke him mostly. And to be fair to Steve, I came into our marriage way more broken than he fixed me in a lot of ways. But, like, breaking him of the cheapness, where it's like, we're not gonna drive 45 minutes out of the way to avoid a $5 toll, you know, literally.

[Patrick Hines]

At what cost? At that point, you're paying.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Tolls are ridiculous.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Sometimes you just gotta pay for the convenience. Just go somewhere in a straight line.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know what else he does? Oh, I hate this. And he taught Daisy to do it. They pick up change off the street.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No, not to spend, I guess, but.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, to, like, put it in a little coin container and then cash it in.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I've just seen Daisy pick up pennies out. I'm like, where did you learn that? She's like, daddy does it. I was like, oh, my God, Steve. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a whole new layer.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I love my husband so much, but, oh, my God, it's a little bit.

[Patrick Hines]

The dry cleaning thing is Saran Wrap. It's, like, a little close. It's adjacent. It's closed enough.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know what my mom did for years? She saved every sauce she ever got with takeout. We would have, like, hot mustard from five years ago in, like, the. In a Tupperware in the cabinet.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, from Chinese food. Hot mustard.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Tell me your par. Parents did one weird, gross thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, the hot mustard. All the condiments from Chinese food, definitely. There's, like, a little baggy in the fridge. For sure. Because sometimes it's easier than buying, like, the enormous jar of mustard, of the.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Hot mustard, like the soy sauce you're going to use twice a year.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, no soy sauce. We always have to have the Kiko Man Low sodium. I'll die on this hill. We always have it. And when we're kind of running low, it's like Frank's Hot Sauce, too.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

If we're kind of running low, I'm like, mike, write it down. We got to put it on our list now. I will never. It's Ranch, Frank's Hot Sauce and Kikko Man Low Sodium. Those are the condiments I need. And ketchup and mustard. I'm a big condiment person. Big into sauces.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Are you a ketchup girly?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, for sure.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I love ketchup, too. Well, I just thought ketchup is, like. Ketchup is disgusting if you think about it.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't care.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know. Me either. But it really is gross. But, like, it's. I just can't imagine, like, you're so. You're. I don't know. You're fancy. I didn't think that.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what. How did ketchup hurt you? How. How do we live in a world where ketchup, like, offended you in some way? What happened to you?

[Julia Penzavalli]

I think it's because I'm from Massachusetts, and we, like, put ketchup on everything. Okay. So I. But if you think about what ketchup is, it's like. It's like tomato paste and sugar and water. It's so gross.

[Patrick Hines]

Delicious.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know. It's really.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just fine.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know what? I feel better about myself having had this conversation.

[Patrick Hines]

I was able to help.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Anyway, moving on.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He had her on a $150 per week allowance, right?

[Patrick Hines]

So to. Just to recap, he's mean to her because he fetched. Like, he wasn't nice to her also. So he's mean to Lita. He's financially abus. He's a cheap weirdo, and he's cheating on her on a regular basis.

[Clint Rucker]

We love.

[Patrick Hines]

Because one year, a Christmas card comes. This idiot. A Christmas card comes.

[Julia Penzavalli]

A Christmas card came addressed to Jim. She opened it, a woman wrote in.

[Patrick Hines]

Something like, I'm missing your kisses. The woman's return address was on the envelope.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So Lita went and spoke to her.

[Patrick Hines]

And the woman said that she had.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Been and having an affair with Jim.

[Patrick Hines]

This idiot put a return address on it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Siobhan knew what she was doing. You know what I Mean, goes to.

[Patrick Hines]

Find her and, like, ask her a whole bunch of questions about, what are you doing writing love notes on Christmas to my husband.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Tracks are down.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But I mean, like, that lady knew she did that on purpose, of course. You know, for the plot or whatever. By the way, people who are cheating with, like, the married guy, he's never gonna leave her free.

[Patrick Hines]

No one leaves anybody.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Nobody ever leaves anybody.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like, not like I have any experience with that at all. It's just the thing I've heard they. It's a thing I've heard people say in movies, like, he is never going to leave.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's. They're never going to leave.

[Patrick Hines]

No. But anyway, so Lita tracks down this woman.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I'm just saying, by the way, Ryan Phillipe, I will leave my husband.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, great. I think that you've been on the record for quite some time. He knows if he wanted to, he would kind of thing at this point. He knows, so.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But I will leave him.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. No, we don't. So Lita tracks down this woman, confirms that Jim's been cheating on her, and gets the hell out of Macon, Georgia. And she goes home to be with her parents in Atlanta. And her parents are like, thank God.

[Julia Penzavalli]

This is one of the things I love the most about her. She's not sticking around to ask questions. She's just like, fudge this, I'm out of here. No.

[Patrick Hines]

And she goes back to her parents, who of course are like, thank God you've been waiting for this phone call. Whatever. Like, sorry that this man is a piece of shit. But I'm like, they're just happy she's home. Yes, they just wanted her to be home.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But it doesn't last because he lures her back. He did. Just writing the sentence. Turned my skin, turn my, turn my.

[Patrick Hines]

Skin, turn something, something, turn your stomach.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Thank you. It. He increased her allowance to 300. Her allowance allowance. Now that is $2,400 in today money. But, like, don't give her like, you know what I mean? Like, she's like your partner. Well, I'm gonna give her a credit card. And don't ask any questions.

[Patrick Hines]

Steve, I'm gonna make you really. Come on, Steve. I'm gonna make you really sick now.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

Because, but, but, but. In the event of a divorce, it.

[Clint Rucker]

Still shows that all of their assets belong to Jim.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's right.

[Patrick Hines]

The successful business, Lita's Mercedes, Multiple Properties.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Even her jewel jewelry still belonged to her husband.

[Patrick Hines]

In the event of a divorce.

[Clint Rucker]

But in an attempt at reconciliation. Lita signs the postnup.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We didn't mention that he would buy her jewelry when she would find out about the affairs as a way to keep her. But that jewelry is still in his name according to the postnuptial agreement.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you kidding me?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Can you imagine?

[Patrick Hines]

So a few months later, and she signs it. I know, I know. And a few months later, without Lita's knowledge, this guy sells the liquor company.

[Julia Penzavalli]

For $5 million equivalent to $40 million in today money.

[Patrick Hines]

And then he goes, oh, guess what? We're moving. We're moving to Palm Beach, Florida.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Now. He is the worst piece of shit in the world to not be like, I just. I don't understand how this. You don't have a conversation with your partner about your major life.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? Moving farther away from her security system or people. He's isolating her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

We've been through this a million times because she went home with her parents, and I'm sure, like, this is what always happens. She probably, like, sort of started seeing things a little clearly. And that's always a problem for these assholes and these abusers because, like, oh, she was like, back home, people she loved. Like, maybe, like some reason was starting to creep in. And now he has to take her even farther away.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right. And so they move to Palm Beach. We see the house. It's called Casa Alita.

[Patrick Hines]

I have so much tea on the house.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You do? Because all we know from the dock is it's 17,000 square feet, eight oceanfront bedrooms and their own private beach. Like, the house looks incredible.

[Patrick Hines]

This house is very, very, very famous.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It is.

[Patrick Hines]

So everyone in Palm beach knows about.

[Julia Penzavalli]

This house because of this case?

[Patrick Hines]

No. It was built in 1920. 28. It's nicknamed I'll wait till you're stopping taking a step. It's nicknamed the ham and cheese house because of the colors of the bricks.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Why did you know my nickname in high school?

[Patrick Hines]

Ham and Cheese. Because of the colors of the bricks. Everyone knows, like, oh, my God, the famous Ham and Cheese House.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

But this house was famous when this piece of shit bought it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It really.

[Patrick Hines]

It was like. It was famous. So he did a lot of. To his. I'm not even going to say to his credit, but Jim did a lot of careful and important restorations to the house.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

And when I googled it, it said that his sensitive restoration of the property in the early was among the reasons this piece of shit was named to the town's then relatively new landmarks. Preservation Commission, for which he eventually served as chairman.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

This house was granted landmark protection by the town in December of 1979. So this house.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

So it was sold in 2013 for about $16 million.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

A couple from Connecticut, a part time Palm beach couple, of course, they have $16 million to drop a historical landmark. They're only there part time.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I mean, just to zoom in on that for a second. Because my mom did housing her ent. Housing for people who couldn't get housing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Like, I grew up on Cape Cod. The number of vacant homes on Cape Cod, two thirds of the year. The number of unhoused people in this country that need a fudgeing place to live.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It is just unconscionable.

[Patrick Hines]

I've been thinking about that too. After lockdown, when so many people went remote.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

People went virtual. Like all of these empty, vacant buildings. Can we convert them and sort of do something?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Housing crisis, families living on the street.

[Patrick Hines]

But what's interesting about this house too is that it seems. Seems to sell like every 10ish years.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

Stay tuned. It sold 12 years ago. So I don't know. It is like, but it is. It's a landmark. It's an official landmark.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

This piece of shit did a lot like, you kind of go in there and then just have it decorated and then photographed. It's like. It's a thing. It's like a commodity, not just like a place to live in and like be a home. It's sort of like a. It's an asset.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yep, Yep.

[Patrick Hines]

Which totally is. But you know what I mean, like, when you Google it, it'll be a lot of articles with a lot of professional photos, and the designer will be interviewed about their inspiration for the design.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my go. God.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just one of those houses.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What made you look it up?

[Patrick Hines]

Because it's called Casa Elita. I was like, if it's named something, there's got to be something to it. And oh my God. Down the rabbit hole did I fall? Travel down the road back again, girl.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Shopify is back. You know how you can tell? Here's the sounds.

[Patrick Hines]

Ooh, look.

[Julia Penzavalli]

There was a time for TCO before Shopify and a time after. We call it the before and the After. The after has everything we sell on our website and our online store streamlined in a way that even I understand how to use it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You're watching only Mur, right?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Of course. My friend Michael is then on it from college.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. Well, we love Selena Gomez.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes. Of Course.

[Patrick Hines]

Do you know that rare beauty, which I also love, uses Shopify?

[Julia Penzavalli]

I didn't, but that makes perfect sense obviously, right?

[Patrick Hines]

It's home of the number one checkout on the planet.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. And the not so secret, secret girl Shopay boosts conversions by up to 50%.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So what that means is way fewer carts going abandoned and way more sales going. What's that sound?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Cha ching.

[Patrick Hines]

There you go.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So if you've got a growing business like us, your commerce platform better be ready to sell whatever your customers are scrolling and strolling on the web in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. Girl. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's true. We love it. Honestly, Steve lives by it. So fam, upgrade your business and get the same checkout. Selena Gomez, apparently.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, we have so much in common. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com obsessed. All lowercase.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Don't get me started. It's all lowercase. Fam. Go to shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.

[Patrick Hines]

Shopify.com obsessed.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Girl, home chef is back. Can I ask you a question?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What is your favorite vegetable?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh God, all of them.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, my favorite is zucchini. I know. Nobody, nobody ever says that. We had this incredible parmesan crusted chicken dinner last night that came with parmesan crusted zucchini. So we were like crusting the zucchini in the parmesan and then sort of like pan frying them.

[Patrick Hines]

Zucchini's a great answer, by the way.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, I've never met anybody who likes zucchini as much as I do.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh my God.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And home should says it to us all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's the thing about Home Chef. Home Chef delivers fresh ingredients and Chef designed recipes conveniently to your doorstep to simplify your cooking experience.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Now get this, fam. Users of leading meal kits have rated Home Chef number one in quality, convenience, value, taste and recipe ease. Even I can make these recipes.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, that's saying something.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's really saying something.

[Patrick Hines]

So they have a lot of options. If you want the classic meal kits with the pre portioned ingredients, great. They also have quick 30 minute recipes. They have oven ready options. Just throw it in the oven. They have microwave meals. They have this dedicated family menu.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's also economical, fam. Home Chef customers save an average of $86 per month on groceries. I mean, you're getting exactly what you need and nothing more.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And when meal planning ends up on the back burner, check out Home Chef's new five ingredient meals that simplify prep with super easy recipe steps Using just five fresh pre portioned ingredients.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It makes you feel like you can cook. Honestly, that's my favorite part.

[Patrick Hines]

I can totally cook.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know you can.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks to this though.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know. So fam. For a limited time, Home Chef is offering. Here we go, our listeners, 18 free meals plus. Say it, girl. Free dessert for life and of course, free shipping.

[Patrick Hines]

On your first box, go to homechef.com.

[Julia Penzavalli]

TCO that's homechef.com TCO for 18 free meals and free dessert for life. Homechef.com TCO must be an active subscriber to get free dessert. We pull it out of the box first and we eat it while we're putting the groceries on.

[Patrick Hines]

There's always a catch, but it's worth it. So anyway, still, even though this was like a super rich place, we learn. Quote, this was not a welcoming place for a black woman to live.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No. And it's like Jim very much wants to be a part of the Palm beach social elite. So learning that he got to be the chairman of the historical society or whatever, like, like that's exactly what he wants.

[Clint Rucker]

But it was not a welcoming place for a black woman and to live. And when he found out that to sort of scale the level of social plateau he was looking at in Palm beach, having a black wife was a serious impediment to that, he starts leaving.

[Patrick Hines]

Her at home and to these, like, socialite events, which, by the way, Lita would be an incredible asset at because she's smart and she's charming and she grew up in this life. But because everyone is so fucking racist down there that her being a black woman was a problem. Quote, Jim ditches her, leaves her at home and starts dating Suki Rogers, who is a Korean born socialite.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is again to say it's not that it was interracial, it was that Lita was black.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly. Now, Suki, they describe as beautiful with a spicy personality. I have since updated my Instagram bio just because it felt suiting.

[Patrick Hines]

She walked so you could run. Now they're dating. He's still married to Lita.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And he has enough money to do these very sensitive restorations to this historical house. Even then.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Lita can't pay for lunch with a friend.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly. Exactly. And by now they've been married for 10 years now.

[Patrick Hines]

So after 10 years of the shitty marriage.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Lita finds a bra in their bed and she's fudgeing. Done.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Are you going to say what Deb said, or should I say.

[Patrick Hines]

You can say it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It was the bra that broke the camel's back.

[Patrick Hines]

I get it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Deb, like that. She's been working on this story for 25 years. Like, God love her.

[Patrick Hines]

Very Beth Carrison.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's the bra that broke the camel.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. So she finds this bra, and she's like, you know what? I'm done. So she goes back to Atlanta, and the very next day, she files for divorce.

[Julia Penzavalli]

God love her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So the husband, of course, fights her every step of the way. He makes this a nightmare for her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Because, remember, he had a prenup and a postnup. Everything that she owns is his.

[Patrick Hines]

So she's going to divorce court to contest this.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And I think she has a good case, considering this cheap bastard was cheating on her the entire time and bouncing his money around.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Restoring this, like, famous house and. And cheating on her in public. Being photographed with these socialites. Like, I think she has a good case.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No question. And it's 16th, 1987. That is the date. That's the court date. And she's thinking she's going to walk away with up to, like, $1 million in cash, which is $2.7 million.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing that I think is really important to say, all Lita wants to do is move on.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

All she wants is her things.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Her house that she had before him. Her jewelry, her car that she had before. And she just wants to move on. She wants him like, he's making this a nightmare because that's what abusers do.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

She just wants to be done. She wants to be done fighting to fight. She just wants her things and she wants to go back home.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And this is when we learn this is the day that Lita is killed. It's the day of the court court hearing where she's taking him to divorce courts. Like, get a moving on money.

[Patrick Hines]

The judge was going to decide the settlement that day.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So obviously, the husband is the first and main suspect.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He stands to gain everything.

[Patrick Hines]

Everything. Property, money, assets, everything.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now the cops go down to Florida to speak to him, because, remember, she.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Was killed in Atlanta Right.

[Patrick Hines]

At her beautiful townhouse that she had before him.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Clint Rucker]

Detectives went down to speak to him in Palm beach, and they put him through a polygraph.

[Patrick Hines]

Jim Sullivan not only passes the polygraph, but there's something else. He has an alibi that puts him nearly 700 miles away from the crime scene. He's confirmed to be in Palm Beach, 700 miles away from Atlanta.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And he passes a polygraph for whatever it's worth.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, I still don't like it. Yeah, I still don't like it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But, like, my whole thing is, like, nobody thinks he did it. Like, I hate it when these documentaries give us the 10 minutes of, like, he's got a solid alibi. Nobody thinks he did it. We all think he hired somebody to.

[Patrick Hines]

Do it because he has the money.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's a fucking piece of shit. So Jim is so cooperative. So cooperative with the police, he actually gives them a name.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Their close personal friend Marvin Marable, who's here with us. And let me tell you, dear listener, this shit gets messy so messy, so fast. And Marvin's not being totally honest.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The first thing that Marvin Marable said, he was interviewed for the Palm beach section. And he goes, they were barely rich for Palm Beach.

[Patrick Hines]

Marvin, you better watch it, because this gets.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, God damn it. It gets messy.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, when Lita was murdered, her best friend Poppy was in the house.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And. And so Poppy is this guy Marvin's wife.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And so she. Marvin says, look, it got to the point where Lita's awful marriage had an effect on my marriage. He paints this picture of these two women, Lita and Poppy, sort of commiserating about their marriages. Or maybe what he's trying to say is that Lita, she was talking so much shit about her marriage to Poppy that she inspired Poppy to get a divorce from this guy Marvin.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Now I'm like, wait a second.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's not how it happens.

[Patrick Hines]

He doesn't explain how or why one divorce has to do with. But in the middle of Lita really going through this abusive relationship and trying to get out of it and talking to her best friend, Poppy files for her own divorce.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And so Marvin's like, not on my watch. So then you decided to try something a little questionable after that.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know, I have a. I have a background in law enforcement. I don't see it as questionable. It's your own telephone in your own house. I put a recorder on the. People call it a tap on the phone, and I started recording conversations in the house.

[Patrick Hines]

The house phone.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Mm.

[Patrick Hines]

Marvin starts recording conversations on his own telephone in his own house specifically to see what these two women are up to.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Now, he does it in secret. He used to work in law enforcement over. So he knows how to tap his own phone in a way that they won't see.

[Patrick Hines]

And what he does is he records more than 300 hours of just conversations between Lita and Poppy.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Marvin, you freak. He goes right to Jim, the husband.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And tells him everything Lita was planning. Now, excuse me, she's in an abusive relationship. She's trying to get out, and you give way. Like Marvin. You give this guy all of this ammunition to use against her. She's already in an unsafe situation.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It also gets off the rails so fast because he can't just call Jim and be like, here's all the dirt that might help you in your divorce settlement against your wife. I'm going to fly to Palm beach under an assumed name. Like what? Like the high drama of. The unnecessary high drama of it.

[Patrick Hines]

I just can't believe that Marvin, a black man who knew everything that Lita had gone through, is now giving this piece of shit white guy ammunition and putting Lita in very real danger.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. And it just seems like he's blaming Lita for his own marriage falling apart, so he's trying to get back at her.

[Patrick Hines]

And so now tell me.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Marvin doesn't like to take a look in the mirror. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Because now it's like the two shitty husbands versus the soon to be ex wives. And now everything's a mess. And Jim's like, no, no, Marvin, girl, keep recording. I'll pay you $30,000.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Because Mar says.

[Patrick Hines]

He goes, I'll do it for free.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He goes down to Palm beach to tell Jim all the dirt that Lead is saying about him. And then he's like, but I'm going to stop recording. No, you didn't. Girl, you're looking for an excuse for why. When James was like, keep recording and I'll pay you 30. Like, why you let him pay you, Right. To keep recording your wife in secret.

[Patrick Hines]

But. However. Because these women are smart and these men are dumb.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Just a few days after Marvin and Jim's secret meeting at Casa Elita, Poppy.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And Lita somehow discovered the recording device.

[Patrick Hines]

How did they react?

[Julia Penzavalli]

It wasn't nice. It wasn't nice?

[Patrick Hines]

No. She speeds up her divorce process. Good. She files for divorce the very next day. Good. Can you imagine?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

And they report Marvin to the cops. And he's charged with possession of an.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Eavesdropping device, which I'd never heard of before.

[Patrick Hines]

What a piece of shit.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Possession of an eavesdropping device. I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

I understand what doing this to Lita was. How it would help him in any way.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know, but he's trying to make money. He's selling information to James.

[Patrick Hines]

But how? It started like, Marvin, what was your thought Process of, like, wow, this woman's really suffering. And my wife is there for her. Let me record them. Like, in what world would you betray your wife and her best friend?

[Julia Penzavalli]

He's leaving out how shitty he knew his marriage was. He knew his wife was talking shit about, like, I don't think these two Poppy and Marvin slept in the same bedroom maybe ever. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, for him to sit here and be like, yeah, well, I know for him to say, earlier, Lita was such a gem. And then to put her in very real danger and conspiracy against both of these women. I know Marvin.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know he's the worst.

[Patrick Hines]

That there was a straight face and say this to me.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, especially because Jim throws Marvin right under the bus. Because remember how Jim was being so helpful?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, this is perfect. So Marvin's shitty behavior is actually perfect for Jim. Yes, because when Jim tells us to, the cops, of course they're going to look at Marvin.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He literally says, you should look at Marvin. All I know is that he's been recording phone calls on his wife, and.

[Patrick Hines]

She'S getting a divorce, too. And I don't know if shit's bad. Like, this was perfect for Jim. Like, Marvin, what were you thinking?

[Julia Penzavalli]

But more to the point, Marvin, why are you here? Why are you sitting down and telling.

[Patrick Hines]

Us the story being recorded? We can see you, Marvin. Like, are you serious?

[Julia Penzavalli]

I want a T shirt that says, we could see you, Marvin. I know why these people sit down with these men. I know. I know they sit down to tell a story in which they only look terrible. Why?

[Patrick Hines]

It's like, when they. When the lie also makes them look bad. When this happens all the time, where it's like, no, I couldn't have killed her because I was cheating on her. Like, even the lie to save your own ass is bad.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know what I wake up in the middle of the night laughing about Sometimes when you do the Actress. When you do the.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, no, I'm scared. I never know what it's gonna be.

[Julia Penzavalli]

When you do the Actress in those Chris Hansen videos, when she's like, oh.

[Patrick Hines]

Did you bring the condoms? Cool. I'm just taking all my clothes off. I'll be right there. I just celebrated my 14th birthday as she's inching back.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

You never see her. You only see her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Totally. You brought the condoms.

[Patrick Hines]

You brought the condoms and the porn, right? Okay, cool.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I have to finish my 8th grade science fair project now.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm just gonna get some high C and I'll be right back. Just get Some Hawaiian punch. Which is delicious, by the way. Let's not talk any shit about Hawaiian Punch.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No, no. But it's also the way that you exit the scene. Cause you always turn with your back when you say it over your. I'll be on the back.

[Patrick Hines]

No, just. You take your clothes off, too. Hold on. Chris Hansen. Why don't you have a seat?

[Julia Penzavalli]

And they always do. They always have the seat.

[Patrick Hines]

Except that guy who ran.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And it did not end well. That episode has been scrubbed from the Internet, so.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So here's the thing. Marvin is questioned by police. He's 100% a suspect because he is, like, doing all these shitty things. But there's no evidence he's involved in Lita's death.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He didn't do this.

[Patrick Hines]

He just killed his own marriage.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right. He's just an asshole, but he didn't do this.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, so. But nothing is happening. The case is going cold. Months and months are going by. No leads are panning out. And Lita's parents, of course, have made this case their whole life. Yeah, this was like, their pride and joy. And they hated this guy on site. And now something happened to her and they know he had something to do with it. And nothing's going on.

[Julia Penzavalli]

They keep ruling out stuff, but we learn about this guy named Bob Daniel. He was a suitor of Lita's. We learned that, like, a few months before the murder, he had come to Lita's house in a drunk and smashed his car into the garage.

[Patrick Hines]

You're an asshole.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Like, smashed his car into the garage.

[Clint Rucker]

And as the cops were taking him away, he said, I'm gonna kill that. So serious red flag.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But that lead didn't go anywhere either.

[Clint Rucker]

Bob had just had quadruple bypass surgery. You know, the police ultimately decided that Bob had nothing to do with it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He couldn't have done it because he just had quadruple bypass surgery. So this rules him out. To which I said, is everybody okay?

[Patrick Hines]

No. What if everybody is okay?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Nobody is okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Especially the. No one is okay. Like, major, walking, violent, red flag. But didn't kill her. But, like, did he maybe kill. Like, is everyone else around him okay? Because if this is how he behaves, like, are any of his ex wives or girlfriends all right?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Like, are any of them missing?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what is going on?

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So now these two veteran detectives are assigned to the case. Lieutenant Walker, they call Billy Dee Williams. Detective Harris, they call Columbo. And the guy says, the dogged, disheveled detective of television fame. Can I Say something. He's a lieutenant. Columbo's a lieutenant. He's lieutenant Columbo. Okay. He's not a detective, he's Lieutenant.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Okay? Yep, yep.

[Patrick Hines]

I just want to say.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And I feel like even I know, because they call him Lieutenant, don't they?

[Patrick Hines]

He introduces himself. Hi, I'm lieutenant Columbo.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

And when they're annoyed at him, they're annoyed, oh, the Lieutenant's here. It's very Lt Columbo. You know who I had to correct about that?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Who?

[Patrick Hines]

Steve. Because in one of our Mad Libs that Steve did, or like a crossword puzzle or something, one of my notes, because Steve sent it, like, what do you guys think? And I was like, everything's great. He's not a TV detective, he's no tenant. And Steve was like, oh, okay. And then the next time he did it again. And I was, I know this is a me thing.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No, but he's a lieutenant. Listen, Steve is a New York Times, Cross Republic person. He does it in Penn. Five days a week. Like he should know better.

[Patrick Hines]

He should know. And it's Colombo. He's famous. He's amazing. He's very good at this. He doesn't carry a gun. He's a guy.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We're giving Steve a lot of shit today. I love you, honey, but I said it very nicely. And I was like, he's a lieutenant. Because you only know how to say things nicely.

[Patrick Hines]

He's a lieutenant. I know he's a lieutenant. And all he does is get shitty rich people.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Rich white people.

[Patrick Hines]

Without a gun. He doesn't need it. He's too good. So anyway, Harrison Walker are on the case.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Case, yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And we learned these roses are very important.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The roses found at the crime scene because. Remember, she opened the door because somebody was delivering her flowers and two bullets.

[Patrick Hines]

Went through the box of roses.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So they tracked down where they were purchased. It's the Botany Bay flower Shop.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And the employee says some guy comes in at 8am, bought the roses, paid in cash, left in a small car.

[Clint Rucker]

The florist gave a description of the man buying the the flowers and another man who was waiting in the car.

[Patrick Hines]

So detectives know they're looking for at least two men. Until yet another person is described to police.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That flower delivery man who had looked.

[Patrick Hines]

Lita's neighbor right in the eye. So the neighbor, remember the neighbor, called 911. And I was like, he's going to be very important.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

He says, well, the guy who delivered the flowers was a middle aged white guy. Dear listener, we have three men.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

None of them are Jim, the husband. None of them look alike.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And we have sketches of all of them. That's how we know that they're three different people.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Three separate people are being described. None of them are Jim, the husband.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So the cops are like, this is clearly a murder for hire plot.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And, I mean, it must be.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, whoever planned this is an idiot.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Keep it simple.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Always are.

[Patrick Hines]

Three people means there's a bigger chance of tracking one of you down. Or one of you is going to talk. Why couldn't the guy who bought the roses also be the driver, also be the shooter? I'm not telling you how to do your shitty plans, but, like, Great. Why are 15 people involved in this?

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know, but also, why is it. Why. Can we get the guys at this point, please? You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Travel. Down, girl.

[Julia Penzavalli]

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. So, look, I say this all the time. I was raised with no money, so I had no financial planning or teaching when I was a little kid. Greenlight is all about teaching the youngins how to prepare for life with a credit card, a debit card, how to manage their finances, how to look at your finances on an app, how to it, like, earn your allowance through their allowance tool. We are obsessed with it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So it's teaching kids how to save, invest, and spend wisely. And it's never too early, honestly.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Just to be clear, it's a debit card and money app for families. Right. So the debit card can be customized. I always say. We got a picture of golden on hours. Daisy this weekend went out and bought a little stuffy because she had the cash. And she always asks us how much she has at the beginning of the weekend because she's done her allowance. We look at the app, she's got a little debit card. She takes it with her everywhere she goes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And the Greenlight app also includes a chores feature.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes, that's what I say.

[Patrick Hines]

You can set up one time or recurring chores customized to your household, to your family, and you can reward your kid with the allowance for a job well done. And everyone's keeping track of it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Everyone's keeping track. It really gets her to do it. And I really love talking about money with her. She can look and see how much money she's saving. She's thinking ahead for this summer.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I'm not joking.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it's like for kids and teens too, by the way. They can build money, confidence, and skills in a fun experience, accessible way because they also have games.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Truly.

[Patrick Hines]

So now like it's not a scary thing for Daisy to talk about because she's got her own app and she's got her own card and she gets.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It and she's going to be way ahead of where I was when she's older. So.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's invaluable. Like no pun intended. It truly is.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's also that's why millions of parents and kids are learning about money on Greenlight already. Like millions. Like I've personally signed up at least 20 people.

[Patrick Hines]

Fantastic.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So fam, start your risk free greenlight trial today at greenlight.com TCO that's greenlight.com/tco to get started greenlight.com TCO customize that debit card.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so cute.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's so cute. I know.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean adults should be able to get that too. Just saying.

[Julia Penzavalli]

So it's 1988. It's a year later by the one year anniversary, there are still no suspects. But then they get Jim saw the husband, they get the husband's phone records and they can see that the day of the murder, about an hour after the murder happened, there was a collect phone call to Jim's home in Palm Beach.

[Patrick Hines]

And it was made from a pay phone about 30 miles away from Lita house.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's, it's the it's done call.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

But here's the thing. This call was made in one state and it was made to someone in another state. So that now means the FBI is involved.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yay.

[Patrick Hines]

Please welcome FBI Special Agent John Kingston.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Hi, John Kingston.

[Patrick Hines]

He is obsessed with the phone calls.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh well, it's kind of amazing. So they get the phone records for six months before the murder and six months after. And they see three days before the murder, Jim called Lita's neighbor. This story is so weird.

[Patrick Hines]

Tim Sullivan said had he seen anything suspicious around Lita's townhouse.

[Clint Rucker]

And Bob finds it strange he hasn't talked to Jim in over a year.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Anything weird going on at Lita's house? Have you noticed anything strange happening around there lately?

[Patrick Hines]

What? Why are you asking me? Also, I haven't spoken to you in a year. Also we're not friends. But also why are you asking me?

[Julia Penzavalli]

But he says he tells the FBI there actually was something weird that happened.

[Patrick Hines]

So here that same day, which is three days before Lita was was killed, someone pounds on Lita's door at 5am and she doesn't answer. Thank you Bob the neighbor for that.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Also these Idiot hitmen, like you're five banging on a door. Like, what is wrong with you?

[Patrick Hines]

Now, that same day again, three days before the murder, the pounding on the door at 5am Jim, the husband, calls a Howard Johnson's motel, like a few miles away from Lita's house.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And they're like, we know he's not staying at a hojo. So what's going on here?

[Patrick Hines]

FBI John goes to Howard Johnson's to dig deeper.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And I got to tell you, having worked at hotels, I wanted my hat is off to these hotel people who kept all these records.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't believe it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Because this was before computers. So this is all paper, Right, that they've organized neatly.

[Patrick Hines]

This is so crazy. So FBI John goes down there and he finds that there were three individuals staying there and they received this phone call from Jim.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

John pulls out, he goes, oh, watch this. 2020, Deborah Roberts. He leans over off camera and pulls out a copy of the form from Howard Johnson's. FBI. John came with props.

[Julia Penzavalli]

This happened in 1988. He's 20, 25.

[Patrick Hines]

Actual literal receipts.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, look at it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, the room is under the name Johnny Fur. Ours.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And this form confirms that three people checked in. It also has the car they drove, which is a 1985 Toyota with North Carolina Place. Now answer me this. Why do they have all of that information on this?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Because you have to put your license plate information so that they don't have your car towed so that people are parking at the Howard Johnson's to go to the grocery store or whatever. So that's a pretty standard hotel thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, so it's like, oh, only patrons of Howard Johnson can. Understood. Okay, great. That makes complete sense. Also, it doesn't matter because we're going to get these guys from this piece of paper. So I don't really care why we have it. Yeah, but we have it gonna kind.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Of get them from this piece of paper, but before North Carolina shuts the whole thing down.

[Patrick Hines]

Not all of them, at least. So these records are, remember from January 13th, three days before Lita was murdered. The same day as the pounding on the door, the same day as that weird call from the husband to the neighbor. What I believe it to be is the killers having come down three days before the actual murder was committed, knocking on her door, her not answering, answering it, and them having to stop and regroup and figure out what plan B.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Is going to be.

[Patrick Hines]

The 5am visit was plan A.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

She didn't answer the door.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yep.

[Patrick Hines]

The Howard Johnson's little conversation was figuring out a plan B.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Long story short, they're trying to track down this Johnny Fur guy. There's a bunch of them in North Carolina.

[Patrick Hines]

FBI. John goes, I'm in love with this registration card. It becomes a focal point of my life for the next several months.

[Julia Penzavalli]

FBI.

[Patrick Hines]

John, I believe you. He's like, do you see it? I know.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know it. Really very organized.

[Patrick Hines]

This form really means a lot to me. Can you please zoom in on it? 20, 20. I don't know. I'm asking you one thing.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Do one.

[Patrick Hines]

One little care about the lighting? I don't care. Can you just focus on the farm? It means everything to me.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But it's so frustrating because he's FBI. The local North Carolina FBI has to say, yes, you can come down here and, like, look for this guy. And North Carolina FBI says, no.

[Patrick Hines]

John cannot wait to get down to North Carolina and get the son of a bitch.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

North Carolina puts a stop to it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

They literally say, we'll take it from here.

[Patrick Hines]

They don't, because John's like, and there goes my case. Like, the case is dead.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And then he gets reassigned. And like that. That whole, like, this one agent who's about to get the guy.

[Patrick Hines]

It's all over North Carolina. Two things. One, can you calm the fuck down? And two, can you do the like. Why are you flipping the brakes? I know, I know it makes no sense.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I agree, but it really. I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Be nice.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you know, hopefully you learned from this.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So meanwhile, husband Jim and girlfriend Suki are living it up in Palm Beach.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I hate them.

[Patrick Hines]

And they get married eight months after Lita's murder.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And they were already dating while Jim was married to Lita.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The bra that broke the camel's bed.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, enough, enough. I get it. But, like, please. So they're going to parties, they're buying whatever. They're living it up at that house. And one day.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, this is so good.

[Patrick Hines]

This idiot.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know. It always comes down to some fucking traffic.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julia Penzavalli]

They're so dumb.

[Patrick Hines]

He's driving his Rolls Royce and gets into a car accident and ends up in traffic court.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy immediately blames Suki, the wife.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes. The idiot judge just believes him. Throws the whole case out.

[Clint Rucker]

However, the cop who was on the scene catches wind and he says, suki wasn't even in the car that day. Was Jim driving alone? So now Jim has perjured himself, as has Suki.

[Patrick Hines]

Jim and Suki have both perjured themselves.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Correct. So Because Suki takes the fall.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course she does.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So Jim is convicted of perjury, gets a year of probation, and now he's on house arrest. Sukie also gets a year of probation. She's freaking out.

[Julia Penzavalli]

She leaves in house.

[Patrick Hines]

She files for divorce.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my. Bye. Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

But because this guy.

[Julia Penzavalli]

She's like sugar and spicy. Don't you remember?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, whatever. But because this guy's such a nightmare, the divorce goes to trial and it's the talk of the town.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Well, because Suki is suing him for alimony. That's what the trial is about.

[Patrick Hines]

Because I'm sure she had to sign some stupid piece of paper giving everything up to.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly. And like, this idiot, we're going to learn that he told her all of his secrets. You're going to let her get on this, Give her whatever she wants.

[Patrick Hines]

No one is thinking. I know.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know. Because he's like, I'm going to have this hair forever.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, please. No, you're not, asshole. Suki is testifying. We have video of this on the stand. Suki says that Jim, the husband, told her that he hired someone to kill Lita.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Like, how did you not know that she was going to tell that? Like, of course that was gonna happen.

[Patrick Hines]

More than that, this weirdly did not help her in the divorce settlement because the judge ruled in favor of Jim across the board.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What is wrong with our cheers? I know. You're right. She. She literally solves Lita's murder, still gets nothing in the divorce.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Men.

[Patrick Hines]

Can we just get rid of most of you, please? God, we would be so much better off.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What if it was just like. And I was just gone?

[Patrick Hines]

The amount of things that we could get done and we could fix.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know, but I want to live on that planet, too.

[Patrick Hines]

Can we just do it first? And then you will be invited, just depending.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You're going to tell all of us. You know what I mean? But you're never. You're never sending for us. That's never happening.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, wait a second. I have to confirm it. I have to figure out with all the other women.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Okay, good.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not making this decision by myself. But I'll bring it up at the meeting. Okay, I will get back to you. But I think everyone will agree. Can we just hit reset and start fresh and then we'll see how as.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Mike and Steve and I are getting onto the spaceship.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We know you're not sending for us. Well, we know you're not. I'm just letting you know, live your.

[Patrick Hines]

Life like you want to be sent for.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

On this new planet that we are. You know what I mean? Would this get me invited or would it not? Live your life as if we're all watching and keeping track.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Cuz, you know, you've set up that planet with cameras. Like there's. Yeah, are you kidding?

[Patrick Hines]

We're watching you and we're keeping track of everything.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Live your life like you want to be sent for, like you want to.

[Patrick Hines]

Be invited to the good planet. Let us work on it, okay?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then we'll see. So just say, mm, should I? Mm.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The motto of Earth is like, planet Earth, where the toilet seat is always down. Mm. I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

And then some. Like, the toilet seat's the least of our worries, honestly.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

So there you go. All right, so here's the thing. The FBI raids Jim's house.

[Clint Rucker]

Jim, now a convicted felon has guns in the house. Of course, you're not allowed to if you're a convicted felon. So they put together a sweeping affidavit to get a search warrant.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We did see a number of guns loaded into a car and this box carried out.

[Patrick Hines]

When they found the guns, he was in violation of his probation. And so he went to jail for nine months. So he goes away for nine months on the stupid fucking gun charge.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We got one thing in the gun world, right? I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I guess the one thing.

[Patrick Hines]

I guess we did it. So it's January 1992.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

They have been building the case. Case against Jim. The statute of limitations is about to.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Be up five days from now.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's what I learned.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, it's.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a five year statute of limitation on murder for hire cases in 1992. That all changed in 1994.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh.

[Patrick Hines]

Effective September 13, 1994, a murder for hire that results in a death is not subject to a statute of limitations.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Thank God. What is the statute? Why do we have a statute of limitations? This is ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

But it took till 1994, so 1992. They only have five years to get victim. So that's what they're. That's the clock they're racing against right now. So the clock is ticking. And they. We don't know who these other three guys are. Are the guy who bought the flowers, the guy who delivered the flowers, and the guy who drove, the guy who killed Lita. Right, like this. Like, also, this couldn't be all one person, Jim.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Like, okay, he's got money to burn.

[Patrick Hines]

And again, when I say those things, you know, I'm not Like, no, we're not. We're burning.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We're pointing out how stupid. Everyone.

[Patrick Hines]

Keep it. Keep it up.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Keep it up. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So they have five days before this expiration date. And they're like, you know what? Fudge it. Let's just go to trial.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Let's just see what we're going to. What we can do.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. So November 2, 1992, first day of trial. It's in federal court, so there's no. No cameras, you know, and Jim's got all the money, and they. This is pointed out for us. He's got money, he's white, and he's got the best lawyers in the country. They literally say.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's indicted for the murder for hire plot against his wife, Lita McClinton, using interstate phone calls.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's all about what FBI John was uncovering.

[Julia Penzavalli]

If the mail doesn't fudge you, it's going to be the phone.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know, especially now. I said, oh, my God. Suki's back for round two. We told her testimony is full of bombshells. But we are not told what they are.

[Patrick Hines]

We don't know what they are. Because as the prosecutors are arguing the case, weeks are going by.

[Clint Rucker]

The judge says, I'm forced to dismiss this case for lack of evidence.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Judge Marvin Shub ruled that in effect, even if Sullivan may have been involved in the murder for hire, the government.

[Patrick Hines]

Fell short in proving the phone calls related to the murder.

[Clint Rucker]

And then he looks at Jim and he says, you've been acquitted.

[Patrick Hines]

The judge is, quote, forced to dismiss the case due to lack of evidence. Thank you.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What the hell?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what the hell?

[Julia Penzavalli]

The judge is here being like, I really didn't want to do that. And we're like, but you know that you're the one in charge of this.

[Patrick Hines]

But you did it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

You're like, I didn't want to do it, but it's a.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know, get him on the spaceship. No one is sending for that guy.

[Patrick Hines]

I didn't want to do it, but there was a rich, white gu. Front of me. My hands were tied with that head of hair. I had to let him go.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I had to let him go.

[Patrick Hines]

It was the death of a black woman, and there was a rich white guy. My hands were tied.

[Julia Penzavalli]

What would you do? What would you do between a rock.

[Patrick Hines]

And a hard place. You see what I'm saying? I had to let him go. He killed. He killed a black woman. There was nothing I could do.

[Julia Penzavalli]

There was nothing I could do.

[Patrick Hines]

So the Husband is a fucking free man. Lita's family is devastated. The system has let them down once again.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, they file a wrongful death suit in like a civil court in Florida and they win a four million dollar judgment. He's able to hide his assets so they get no money. Can we do something?

[Patrick Hines]

Like they always do? But I mean, O.J. did the same thing.

[Julia Penzavalli]

There's got to be a way we can fix that. There's got. There has to be a way.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, like how he can now hide all his assets.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I'm thinking about all the things you all are going to get done when we're gone. That's going to be like on the top 10.

[Patrick Hines]

Just got away with it too. I know that.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

No, we'll take care of it. We have a long list. Everyone's up for it though, right? Girl, we can do it. Come on. Don't fail me now. Right? Okay, so this sucks. Jim is not held accountable for anything. He got away with plan planning Lita's murder and all the other abusive shit that he's done until it's 1998. It's 11 years after Lita's murder.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh my God. Come through. Beaumont, Texas.

[Patrick Hines]

Belinda Trahan is here. She lives 700 miles away.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I love her.

[Patrick Hines]

Belinda, she has a story. She has a boyfriend named Tony.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, Belinda and Tony live together in Albemarle, North Carolina. If that sounds familiar. It's cuz that's where that FBI guy was trying to go to find the guy.

[Patrick Hines]

And North Carolina said, nope, no, thank you.

[Julia Penzavalli]

This guy Tony's a long haul truck driver. So she works for an attorney, this Belinda woman. And she tells this attorney, Belinda tells.

[Clint Rucker]

Her boss about a time that Tony came home from a long haul trucking trip and said that a rich white man in Florida offered to pay him to, quote, take care of his black wife in Georgia.

[Julia Penzavalli]

To, quote, take care of his black wife in Georgia.

[Patrick Hines]

Belinda's like, I'm sorry, what?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Belinda didn't believe it. She's like, no, no, no, you've been gone. You've been traveling like you met another woman.

[Patrick Hines]

You're ch.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You're absolutely cheating on me.

[Patrick Hines]

And I just want to be clear. Tony drives a moving truck, right? That's important.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes, yes. But then Tony takes her to meet this rich white guy in a diner somewhere.

[Patrick Hines]

He's like, no, no, no, I'm not cheating on you. Why don't you come meet the man who's going to pay me to kill his black wife?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

Are words Tony said to Belinda.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And she's like, okay, Belinda goes to the waffle house.

[Patrick Hines]

She goes to the diner. And Belinda's like, I watched the rich white guy and my boyfriend a stack of cash.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But it's like, what's his name? James. What are you doing?

[Patrick Hines]

What are you doing?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Now you've got another witness watching you pay this man to kill your wife. What is going on?

[Patrick Hines]

Desperate man.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Or a man who thinks he can get away with anything, too.

[Patrick Hines]

So Belinda's like, okay, I'm bailing. She leaves Tony. She leaves North Carolina. She moves to Texas.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's where she meets the attorney who she tells this story to.

[Patrick Hines]

Because 11 years go by, she doesn't tell him the story right away. 11 years go by, and the ex boyfriend randomly reaches out to Belinda. Hey, like, it's been a long time. Do you want to meet me at this nearby truck stop?

[Julia Penzavalli]

There's no witnesses, and nobody can hear you scream.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's like, no, she's too scared to go. So she tells her boss, a lawyer, the whole story. The boss connects Belinda to the feds. Bada bing, bada boom. Here we are.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The feds show up at Belinda's house. The name Belinda. I could never stop saying, what a great name. Jesus. They show up at Belinda's house with a photo lineup. It takes her three seconds to tap her little pinky pink fingernail. That's another Deb quote on Jim Sullivan's face.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's the guy who paid the ex boyfriend.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

The feds set up a wire, and they record conversations between Belinda and her ex, Tony. And Tony spills it all.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He tells Belinda everything on these recorded calls.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Plus the FBI finds proof that Tony the X delivered furniture to Jim Sullivan three months before the murder. So they knew each other.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's how they were connected. The FBI calls the trucking company that he works for. He's like, any chance you got your records from 11 years ago? He's like, I sure do, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course I do.

[Julia Penzavalli]

People used to keep great records before computers. My God.

[Patrick Hines]

Here's a pro tip. You can keep records on a computer.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I don't know that that's true. I'm not crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

You don't have any backup of anything.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But we're doing good. That's only ever been us in the ass 4 or 5 or 7.

[Patrick Hines]

You want to know why? Because I have them all. Because they exist somewhere.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I could probably find my notes now for, like, the last four years or so. But, like, if we needed my notes on the Catfish document documentary, I Probably couldn't find.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I got mine. I'm up for you right now.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God. They should be in a museum somewhere.

[Patrick Hines]

That's so funny. So this is perfect, though. There's a paper trail, right? So Tony the X tells the feds, okay, fine. I took $25,000 from Jim, but I did not pull the trigger. But I was also there.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He. This has been on his conscience forever. When the feds knocked on his door, he's like, I've been waiting for you guys for a long time. He wants to unburden himself of this right now.

[Patrick Hines]

He's the hitman.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

He's saying that he's not, but, yeah, of course. Incriminates himself.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So the cops arrest him for Lita's murder. He just keep talking. He knows too much. And they arrest him for the murder.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Now they, at the same time, issue a warrant for James Sullivan, the husband, who obviously paid for this. The guy fudgeing, takes off.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It's April 1998. He's gone. Yeah, he runs. He's gone. For years, He.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He had a home in Costa Rica, where he went that he flies to Panama. Then from Panama, he. Like, nobody knows where he went then.

[Patrick Hines]

He's been missing for so long, he's on the top 10 most wanted list. He's on America's Most Wanted.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Clint Rucker]

A man sees America's Most Wanted Wanted on television and goes, I know that guy. He lives in my condo complex in Cheyenne, Thailand.

[Julia Penzavalli]

That's my neighbor in Thailand.

[Patrick Hines]

Paul's America's Most Wanted. The husband is finally extradited in 2004. This was 1998.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I mean, America's Most Wanted is gonna get you every time. Why is that show not still on the air?

[Patrick Hines]

But it takes forever. I know, because the phone call comes in in 1998. By 2004, he's extradited.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And, I mean, she died. She was murdered in 1980.

[Patrick Hines]

87.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my.

[Julia Penzavalli]

1987. Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He gets off the plane, he's wearing one shoe because he has gout so bad. Which.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Meanwhile, we're covering that. That other documentary about the culture scene, Little Miss Innocent.

[Patrick Hines]

Nobody had the guy.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Some culture scene.

[Patrick Hines]

Nobody had gout.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So anyway, the trial after nearly 20 years, and Clint, the prosecutor is like, can I talk about the puzzles again? Because this is all about putting all these puzzle pieces.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He's rich, he's white. He's gotten away with everything. His lawyers are amazing. And we're like, shit. Shit. This does not look good. Yes, so the jury, we learn nine women, three men. We learn that the racially mixed.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

We have a lot of people testifying. We have the phone records. We have that receipt, the FBI, John Loves from Howard Johnson with the.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The car license plate and all that.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Belinda and Tony testified. They're like the star witnesses.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And Belinda says something. Talk about haunting for the rest of your life.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Because what happened was Tony is. When he's trying to convince her that he's been hired to kill this woman. And she doesn't believe him.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, no. I'm not cheating on you. I was hired to kill a black woman.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And he's like, we knocked on the door, like, yesterday, and she didn't answer. And Belinda's like, well, you're such a dummy. She's not trying to help him. She just doesn't believe this is real.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I said, just don't even lie to me, I said. Because anyone knows that if you wanted.

[Patrick Hines]

To get a woman to answer the.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Door, all you would have to do.

[Patrick Hines]

Is take flowers to the door.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And so Belinda unwittingly gave them the tool to get Lita to answer. Answer the door.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so this is like a. A very gaspable moment because it proves that they used Belinda's. For lack of a better term, like advice.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. And, you know, they make it very clear that it was. She did not do that on purpose. She was not trying to help them.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, no. But Clint, the puzzle loving lawyer.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Brings the actual booth from the actual diner.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Into the courtroom. And I'm like, okay, I love this. I love the theater. But, like, that poor diner.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

The lawyers pay for that. Did they replace the booth?

[Julia Penzavalli]

There's a lot of theatrics in the closing arguments. The defense attorney is trying to show that there's no way the $25,000 Tony was paid could fit into the envelope. So he's trying to literally, like, if the money doesn't fit you, you must acquit.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

So Belinda identifies Jim Sullivan. Fine. Tony, the boyfriend, gets up there to testify.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

The lawyer has him stand up and act out what Jim Sullivan said to him. He's taking his glasses. This man is in character. He's, like, doing a voice. His posture changes. And Tony's like, yeah, I signed the motel receipt. I bought the flowers. I made. Did everything but kill Lita.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And the defense doesn't ask him a single question.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No. And that's the thing that, like, he's A guy that, like, they could have assassinated his character on the stand all day.

[Patrick Hines]

He did it already.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah, I guess that's true.

[Patrick Hines]

So by the time we're at closing arguments, the theater kid, like, girl, I know you love puzzles, but you also love theater because he has an actual doorbell.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God. It's so he's got the doorbell. Because, remember, they. They rang the doorbell. Lita answered the door. They want the jury to feel what Lita felt when hearing of the doorbell.

[Patrick Hines]

Just like, ordinary sound.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But also learned that the husband who hired the killer loved the book For Whom the Bell Tolls. So he starts shouting at the jury, I'm gonna ask you through your verdict of guilty to each and every count to tell James Vincent Sullivan, for whom the bail told. Tell him that it tolls for thee.

[Patrick Hines]

Then Clint looks directly at him, and he points and he goes, for you.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And I'm like. He says it three times for you. I'm sure it was effective in the courtroom. I'm watching it. Like, this is a bit over the top.

[Patrick Hines]

Even if he's rings the doorbell three times, the bell is tolling. But, like, I understand partially why he's doing this. Because he knows he's up against a rich white guy.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's the murder of a black woman. And he is doing everything he can to show these people, give them as many visuals, whether it's the diner or the doorbell or whatever. Clint, I know you're a puzzle guy, but you're playing a lot of chess here, and I love it. Theatrical chess. The best. So the jury is deliberating, and everyone's a wreck because they're like, is he gonna get away with it again?

[Julia Penzavalli]

Again?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he's gotten away with everything his whole life. The other case was thrown out, and.

[Julia Penzavalli]

He was, like, on the run for 10 years or whatever. But the case goes to the jury. They come back in a few hours. It's the same day, and he's guilty.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is where. So he's. Fuck this guy. So he has life in prison without the possibility of parole. But did you catch this? As they're talking about this, we're like, now the entire time that Clint the lawyer is with Deborah Roberts.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He's doing a puzzle.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And we finally, like, pan out, and the puzzle that Clint has been working on this whole time is Lady Justice.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, I understand that after all this time, Lita's family just got something. But I'm like, lady justice needs a lot of work. I don't Know if the current justice is invited to my planet.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No, no, no, no.

[Patrick Hines]

You guys are gonna burn the whole thing down.

[Julia Penzavalli]

You're gonna. That's no question.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julia Penzavalli]

No question.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's gonna be a lady again.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. You're never sending for us. You're never. We're just gonna starve at that planet.

[Patrick Hines]

Live your life like you want to.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Be, like you just want to get there. So he gets life without the possibility of parole. Tony Harwood, the. We believe the killer was released after his 20 years. Sullivan remains behind bars to this day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Yvette, Lita's friend, because Deborah Roberts is like, why do you think this took 20 years? And she's like, I got two words for you, Deb. White privilege.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

He was rich. He was white. And she says he knew how to manipulate people and he had resources to do that.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And Clint's like, yeah. And I have to say, race always permeates a case, and it definitely did in this case. And it ends with Deb, the author, saying this really beautiful thing about Lita.

[Clint Rucker]

This is a woman who you never met. I've never met most of the people involved in this case. Never met her. And yet her life really made an impact. When somebody dies in this kind of manner, they don't stop being a member of the family. They don't stop being a member of the community. They never stop mattering.

[Patrick Hines]

People don't ever stop mattering.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, it was this really beautiful way to end this because we also, like, we don't. There were three guys there. We only have Tony. We don't know anything else.

[Julia Penzavalli]

They're not even looking for the other two.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, they just sort of ended the case. And so now Lita's family has to sort of deal with, like, okay, I guess it's now about Lita and her impact and her memory and how she still matters and not the rest of the details of this case, which is fucking crazy. And unfair.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And unfair.

[Patrick Hines]

Lady Justice. How dare you?

[Julia Penzavalli]

How dare you.

[Patrick Hines]

I would like a word.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, girl. We did a puzzling murder from 2020.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It's season 47. 47. Episode 6.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I love Deborah Roberts. I love, love her.

[Patrick Hines]

And I love. So many of the cases that she covers on 2020 are so personal to her.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So she. She really has, like, a really special voice in these stories.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Yeah. Fam, don't forget we are starting a discord. I almost got what it's called. Yes. So there's a link in the show notes right now. You can. There's a link to everything. The Facebook group, all of our social media. The Discord. Join the Discord. We're going to be in there. I can't wait to sort of learn this new world. It's going to be so fun.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not replacing. We're just adding it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Facebook is still there. Everything thing is still there. But this is just a little alternative if you're into that kind of thing.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And especially if you want to join the book club. That's going to be starting to be managed through there. Sasha's going to manage it in a bunch of ways. You don't have to join Discord to be in the book club. We've got a couple hundred, like 500 people in the book club. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because the book club is everywhere.

[Julia Penzavalli]

It's everywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not like not in Facebook. It's not not on Discord. Everywhere.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The thing about Discord is that there will be a special channel for the book so you can continue the conversation there easier than you can in the Facebook group.

[Patrick Hines]

Got it.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Is all I'm saying. Okay, what are we doing next?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, girl. Lisa Frank. Oh, we're doing that Lisa Frank doc. So it's on Amazon Prime. It's four episodes. We're doing that thing where we do it in two.

[Julia Penzavalli]

We're talking about gay stickers. Like, that's. That's what we're doing.

[Patrick Hines]

I know stickers. Lisa Frank also. Also Sandy lion. Were you a Sandy lion, girly?

[Julia Penzavalli]

I don't know anything about Lisa Frank. So, like, watching the documentary behalf. I really. I messed this up, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

You fucked it up. You fucked me up. I specifically asked you not to fuck me on and I did.

[Julia Penzavalli]

I really. It's why I'm going to that other planet and I'm not going to be sent for anyway. We're gonna. The way we're doing it is it's four episodes. We're doing it in two. Two episodes at one and then two episodes in the.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, you know how you. Whatever. And if not, we'll explain it at the top of the episode. But Lisa Frank's my sticker, girlies. Let's go.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Oh, my God. Thank you for the trailer for that. And we love y'all.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you. See you next time.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye. Lisa Frank's art have this nostalgia. An explosion of color, Happy, magic, magical.

[Julia Penzavalli]

The cutest thing you've ever seen. Lisa Frank's story started with a dream.

[Patrick Hines]

That grew into a phenomenon. Art defined an entire generation.

[Julia Penzavalli]

And she became known as the mastermind of an iconic brand.

[Patrick Hines]

At one point, they were making a reported $66 million a year.

[Julia Penzavalli]

But behind the colorful brand, you know.

[Patrick Hines]

Things got very amazing, very dark. How can something that created so much happiness go so wrong?

[Julia Penzavalli]

There's a scary side to the Lisa Frank story. Not everything was rainbows and unicorns. Oh, it's a rainbow roller coaster, to say the very least.

[Patrick Hines]

It felt like management by fear walked around on eggshells. They just took such advantage of us.

[Julia Penzavalli]

Who's going to survive till next week? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Patrick Hines]

They say you should never meet your idols, and it's true.