417: Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story Part 2

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 417: Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story Part 2

Release Date: March 4, 2025

Introduction

In episode 417 of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Jillian Benzavalli and Patrick Hines delve deeper into the tumultuous narrative presented in the documentary series "Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story." This second part continues to unravel the complex dynamics within Lisa Frank Inc., focusing on personal conflicts, corporate governance issues, and the devastating impact on collaborators and employees.

The Downfall Begins: Divorce and Its Aftermath

The episode opens with a reflection on the pivotal moment when Lisa Frank's divorce from her husband, James Green, marked the "beginning of the end" for the company (02:11). James Green, depicted as an unreliable narrator, reveals that his father had predicted the marriage would last only ten years—a forecast that proved accurate (01:51). The hosts critique James's upbringing, highlighting his father's toxic influence and questioning the family dynamics that led to such a collapse.

Impact on the Children and Corporate Culture

Hunter Green, James's son, emerges as a central figure narrating his childhood within the Lisa Frank household (03:00). He portrays a volatile environment filled with constant arguments and favoritism towards his brother, Forest (05:00). The hosts empathize with Hunter, discussing the psychological toll of growing up in such a setting and the subsequent behavioral issues he faced at school (04:15). They emphasize how the parents used their children as pawns in their bitter divorce, leaving lasting scars.

Lisa Frank's Tight Grip on the Company

As the narrative progresses, Lisa Frank's control over the company becomes increasingly oppressive. After James Green's departure, Lisa restricts James and his new wife Rhonda from participating in company affairs (12:50). The hosts criticize the blurred lines between personal vendettas and business operations, noting that Lisa Frank manipulated corporate structures to maintain her dominance (12:58). This manipulation extended to employee relations, where Lisa Frank imposed strict control, stifling creativity and fostering a toxic work environment (15:26).

The Glamour Dolls Collaboration: A Cautionary Tale

One of the most significant segments covers the collaboration between Lisa Frank Inc. and the startup makeup company Glamour Dolls, founded by Jessica Mara and Peter (32:35). Initially, the partnership seemed promising, aiming to blend nostalgia with modern cruelty-free beauty products. However, the collaboration quickly soured due to Lisa Frank's erratic demands and micromanaging behavior (39:00).

Jessica and Peter launched a Kickstarter campaign in February 2017, raising $475,000 with ambitious timelines for product delivery. Despite early success and widespread excitement, Lisa Frank's interference led to unrealistic demands, such as altering the material of their vegan leather bags to plastic vinyl (45:12). This not only delayed production but also compromised the product's integrity, resulting in backer dissatisfaction and a barrage of negative reviews (45:52).

Legal Battles and Financial Ruin

By April 2018, Jessica and Peter found themselves financially devastated, having paid Lisa Frank over $500,000 without delivering any products (56:30). The documentary highlights the predatory nature of their contract, which heavily favored Lisa Frank and left Glamour Dolls with no viable options (66:07). The ensuing legal battles saw Glamour Dolls struggling to reclaim their reputation while Lisa Frank continued to assert control over the company's assets and designs (67:28).

Public Backlash and Reputation Management

Backers of the Kickstarter campaign grew increasingly hostile, blaming Jessica and Peter for the project's failure without understanding the extent of Lisa Frank's manipulations (57:24). The hosts express frustration over the lack of communication and empathy from both parties involved, underscoring the public's impatience and propensity for online harassment (46:32). The situation culminated in legal dismissals of most of Glamour Dolls' claims against Lisa Frank Inc., leaving the startup in ruins and the founders emotionally and financially shattered (68:32).

Final Reflections and Conclusions

In concluding the episode, Jillian and Patrick reflect on the broader implications of the Lisa Frank documentary. They critique Lisa Frank's inability to separate personal grievances from business operations, leading to widespread fallout that extended beyond the corporation to affect individual lives and careers (65:30). The hosts emphasize the importance of robust contractual agreements and the dangers of mixing personal vendettas with professional relationships.

Notable Quotes

1. Patrick Hines regarding James Green's upbringing:

   • "What on earth kind of piece of shit dad do you have to be to say something like that?" (01:55)

2. Hunter Green describing his childhood:

   • "Growing up in Lisa Frank's household was not a colorful, magical time like the puppies and rainbows often portrayed." (04:58)

3. Jillian Benzavalli on the use of children in parental conflicts:

   • "The kids are totally in the middle. Hunter's saying she was trying to make my dad this abusive guy." (19:32)

4. Patrick Hines on Lisa Frank's business tactics:

   • "It seems like Lisa Frank is living in a world where she can take it away like that. It's a terrible business decision." (12:17)

5. Jillian Benzavalli criticizing societal reactions to business failures:

   • "Can we work on our emotional regulation for five minutes? This is not a normal response to being disappointed by something." (46:58)

6. Patrick Hines on contractual pitfalls:

   • "The contract was awful. It looks predatory, designed to screw them over." (66:07)

Insights and Conclusions

Episode 417 offers a critical examination of how personal turmoil can disastrously intertwine with corporate operations, leading to the downfall of businesses and the ruin of personal lives. The hosts highlight the importance of clear boundaries, transparent communication, and fair contractual agreements in maintaining both personal and professional integrity. Through the tragic tale of Lisa Frank Inc. and Glamour Dolls, the episode serves as a cautionary story about the perils of letting personal grievances dictate business decisions.

The hosts also shed light on the broader societal issues of online harassment and the lack of empathy in public discourse, especially when businesses fail. By integrating humor and heart, True Crime Obsessed not only recaps the documentary but also offers poignant reflections on human behavior, business ethics, and the devastating impact of toxic leadership.

Conclusion

True Crime Obsessed successfully navigates the convoluted and dramatic narrative of the Lisa Frank documentary, providing listeners with a comprehensive and engaging analysis. Through their insightful commentary and incorporation of notable quotes, Jillian Benzavalli and Patrick Hines illuminate the dark underbelly of a beloved brand's operations, offering valuable lessons on the intersection of personal conflicts and business management.

Transcript

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's a sweet dog. We don't get their name, of course.

[Patrick Hines]

But there is a sweet dog justice for the sweet dog. Hi. Jillian Benzavalli.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Hi, Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, fam. So some of you may know I am doing another tour. I've done, I think, at this point already, like, 10 shows.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

They're going so well. We're having so much fun. The whole point of these shows is to get people together so you can meet your fellow TCO Fam. I'm gonna tell you a funny story for an hour, and then we all meet at the venue bar, and it's a cash bar, and we Dr. We hang out. So many little clicks are forming. So many little friends are being made. And this is exactly what I wanted. So I'm here to tell you that we are announcing the next couple of cities. I will be coming to Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Boston, New York City, Louisville, and St. Louis. All of the information and tickets for, like, the dates and the locations and the times are@Patrick Tours.com. we are announcing these cities today. They go on sale on March 11, which is next Monday. And that's all I got to say. I'm excited. Come and see me. I'm very excited.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Go have fun, everyone.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Make new friends. We've got stickers. If you're traveling alone and you want to make new friends, stickers. It says solo and fabulous. It's appropriate for this episode. That's all. Patricktours.com. get all the info and come and see me. All right, girl. What are we talking about today?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So this is our second episode covering the four episodes of a little documentary called Glitter and the Lisa Frank Story.

[Patrick Hines]

This one gets real wild, y'all.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So last week or two seconds ago, if you're on Patreon, was episodes one and two of that documentary. And so now we're covering episodes three and four.

[Patrick Hines]

The producer says, remember the last one ended with him saying it was the beginning of the end. The divorce was the beginning of the end of everything.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And they asked James, what did the beginning of the end look like for you? This is where. Oh, God. To be raised in James's house. I can't imagine. He said his own dad told him that their marriage was only going to last 10 years, and that's exactly how long it lasted.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

What on earth kind of piece of shit dad do you have to be to say something like that?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And also, again, we don't know what their relationship was really like. We only have James. James is an unreliable narrator. Lisa Frank is in here. We just know that it was like very volatile and intense and not good. I mean, they treated each other like they treated everyone else in their lives. God damn.

[Patrick Hines]

No one was in it to win it. It just seems like it's like a marriage of convenience. Maybe they both wanted to have kids. Who. Well, we know he didn't want to, which is fine. Which is totally fine.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But he, like, when they're here, you got to be nice about it.

[Patrick Hines]

I think that look I. From all indications, he's. He like loves his sons. I'm going to give the guy that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

All right. Episode three starts with Hunter Green.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he goes, I'm Hunter the leopard.

[Patrick Hines]

Hunter the leopard.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because they named. Their names are just Forest Green and Hunter Green. And then they named animal like Lisa Frank characters after that.

[Patrick Hines]

If they'd had a daughter, they would have named her Emerald.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Hunter is the one that has a very sweet dog, but we don't know anything about the dog. Hunter explains he made a TikTok about the fall of Lisa Frank Inc. And it went super viral. And he immediately took it down because as he says, my mom is known for suing the living shit out of you. And I'm like, oh, so this is Hunter and James versus Lisa Frank and the other son who also is.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is just such shitty parent. God forbid, if anything ever happened to Steve and me, I would never say anything but nice things about him in front of David.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's not how they do this year.

[Patrick Hines]

Not even close.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Hunter loves his father, James.

[Patrick Hines]

My dad did such an amazing job at what he did that the entire general public believes that Lisa Frank the person is Lisa Frank the artist and.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The brand, when in reality that's James Green.

[Patrick Hines]

I think he's the goat of art. And he's the greatest of all time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He's the greatest of all time. He's my favorite person in the world. Hunter has his dad's art tattooed all over his arms.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just Hunter had such a shitty growing up. I really feel for this kid.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I do too. It almost feels like he shouldn't be here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I feel.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It feels unfair. It feels like we're talking to 15 year old Hunter and if I were.

[Patrick Hines]

His dad, I'd be like, you can't. I'm not allowing you to do this. Like this, like this is. It's awful.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

His dad wanted another voice.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

To take down Lisa Frank 100%, according to everyone else. Was doing a fine job taking herself down.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But he says, Hunter says growing up in Tucson, they were like local celebrities because everybody knew that they were the Lisa Frank family and they thought they had all this money, money, and everything was so amazing. And he's like, my life was anything but that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Hunter describes his childhood. It's just heartbreaking.

[Patrick Hines]

This is. This breaks my heart.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He says they're fighting all the time. There were arguments at dinner every night. He said there was never a birthday that went well.

[Patrick Hines]

He says, I have no memory of a birthday that went well. I. It is so, like. I mean, I am in therapy weekly, sometimes more than weekly. And I love my therapist, and I talk about my kid all the time. And it is so much the way that your parents treat each other and the way that you, like, is so foundational to how you see. See the world and how you see yourself. And it, like, just knowing that these stories break my heart because they're using.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The kids as pawns.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Hunter describes his brother Forest. Forest is not here with us, and we don't even see a photo of him.

[Patrick Hines]

But it seems like Hunter and Forest are close. Forest at least is like, this is Hunter. We love Hunter. So it seems at least as though Forest and Hunter get along.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I guess. I don't know. It would be great to hear from Forest, but we don't hear from him.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Hunter says, my mom treated Forrest.

[Patrick Hines]

A little differently than me. A little bit softer.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She treated him more like a child.

[Patrick Hines]

Like her child than me.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Lisa treated Forrest differently. Hunter says that Lisa was like, Forrest was the favorite. And then, you know, Lisa Frank was nice to all of the friends. But then when everyone would leave, Hunter says the switch would flip and she would become a monster.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's saying to his friends, because his friends would be like, your mom is so nice. You've got the cool mom. And he's like, but you have no idea what she's like when you all leave. Like, she's horrible to me. He says.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He says. And I'm sure, sure that's true. But I also don't think that James is the type of guy to be like, let's not fight in front of the kids, sweetie.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So there's a lot of revisionist history happening here, and I think a lot of manipulation on the part of James. I'm going to say it that, like, the memories of, like, oh, my God, my dad was amazing. You think James wasn't fighting with her right back?

[Patrick Hines]

100%. You think those very toxic environment.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We don't have a happy birthday party. And James is at the innocent party here.

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely not. No. And I hope I didn't come off that. That's what I was saying. Like. Like, they just have no care about fighting in front of the kids.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. And Hunter explains, like, this heartbreaking, too, because he was in this vicious cycle. Like, he hated being at home, and then he'd be acting out at school, and then he'd get in trouble at school. And then he was dubbed, like, the bad kid. And he's a tea. Like, what is he supposed to do?

[Patrick Hines]

And he says, all I know is that growing up in Lisa Frank's household was not a colorful, magical time like the.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know, that's. We get that a lot where it's like puppies and rainbows, but it's not puppies and rainbows. And Lisa Frank would be, apparently, according to Hunter, always screaming, always yelling, go live with your father. I don't want you. Which is like, please never say that to your kids.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, that's just of qu. And then Hunter says he remembers the night that his dad left because James gives us this story that, according to James, she was telling me she was divorcing me for years. Years. How many times you got to hear that before you finally walk out the door and say, fuck it, I'm Leah? Lisa said she was going to divorce him to his face every day since the honeymoon. And he said, like, I'm sorry, could you blame her? No, Definitely not at all.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Not at all. Lisa Frank does evil, cruel shit.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But, like, they both weren't feeding off.

[Patrick Hines]

Of each other 100%. But he finally says, like, he just up and left one day. He's like, I had heard that enough times. I was like, fudge it, I'm out of here.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Travel down the road.

[Patrick Hines]

Back again, girl. Haya is back. These are the kids vitamins where they send you the bottle that they can decorate on their own. But they're also like the vitamins that taste good and are actually good for the children.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You mean the superpower chewable vitamin that I'm jealous of?

[Patrick Hines]

I know. I tasted it. It is delicious. But that's not the. The point is that it is actually healthy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And it's hard getting kids to eat healthy things.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, don't. Don't I Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I've heard tell.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That kids get a little cranky about being healthy.

[Patrick Hines]

So listen. Haya was formulated with the help of pediatricians and nutritional experts. Haya is pressed with a blend of 12 organic fruits and veggies then supercharged with 15 essential vitamins and minerals including vitamin D, B12C, zinc, folate and and many others to help support immune system energy, brain function, mood, which thank you very much, concentration, teeth, bones and more.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what?

[Patrick Hines]

What?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Me too. If it makes Daisy even a little bit nicer, we'll take it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And are you tired of battling with your kids to eat their greens?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

So fam, we've worked out a specialty with Ohio for their best selling children's vitamin.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Receive 50% off your first order.

[Patrick Hines]

I know you can't beat it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Available on their regular website. Fam. Go to h I y-a h e a l t h.com TCO and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And make sure they decorate the bottle.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean that means that's the best. Well, it's not the best part, but it's a great part.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's the part I'm the most jealous of, honestly. So they get divorced when Hunter's 10 years old. Now Lisa Frank is convinced that James is having an affair with Rhonda from.

[Patrick Hines]

Hr which is like why?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because they are the same, I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

But I mean like he, he doesn't seem to me like the affair not because he's loyal to her. He just doesn't seem to have does.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

He can't ever be nice or like.

[Patrick Hines]

Sex or romance on his brain. You know what I mean? He's like 100% work focused and driven and wants to yell at people and flip tables. Like to have fair implies some sort of like he gives me no sexual energy whatsoever. He's just not a romantic guy. Like I don't know, I could see.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It as he wants to do something to hurt Lisa Frank. So that's what he would do.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep, that makes sense.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. We have different opinion. Of course. James and Rhonda say of course not. Rhonda also said no, I was an amazing person to work for. Like whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And Rhonda has been quote happily married to her husband for 50 years. We meet the husband who comes in.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And asks her how she is and she's like, I'm tired.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm always tired.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Join the fucking club, Rhonda. I don't give a shit. We're all busy. We all have shit to do. I don't care. I don't care. Then don't sit down for the documentary then.

[Patrick Hines]

I know you're going to complain about it. She really does look exhausted, to her credit, I will give her that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sometimes when there's bad stuff inside of you, you're tired all the time. Or sometimes people are just tired because the world is exhausting. What do you want from me, Rhonda?

[Patrick Hines]

It's the Rainbow Gulag. Remember? They called it the rainbow Gulag.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Endless victimhood.

[Patrick Hines]

I know of these people who treated their. Their employees so terribly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They were on food stamps. They couldn't feed their kids. I know you're on the private jet, so.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You know, Rhonda knows her way around that private jet. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So the was already miserable. The divorce made it even worse.

[Patrick Hines]

I heard that Lisa started saying things like, you need to choose sides. You need to find out what side.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Your bread is buttered on. Like, holy cow, maybe felt like if you pick wrong, you're probably going to be out. You'll get fired.

[Patrick Hines]

When they divorce now, the employees are like the children that are have to pick a side in the divorce.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're like rainbow unicorn folders. You can't possibly be that serious. And then on the other hand, I'm like, it's a business grow up.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, but like, these are just people who, it seems like they never had any business running a business. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, speaking of that, remember before they got married?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Lisa Frank gave James 49% of the company's stock.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Bailey Sarian is here. She's here to tell us the story. She's a host of the dark history podcast. We love her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And so now it's a full on war. Because Lisa Frank wants James Green out of the company entirely. And there is going to be a major legal battle between them.

[Patrick Hines]

This makes no sense to me. She's. It seems to me that Lisa Frank is living in a world where she's like, Lisa giveth. And Lisa can take it away. Like you gave him, for better or worse. It seems like a terrible business decision to me. But on paper, you gave him 49% of the company. Like that's his now. And by the way, this is why you don't do that. You know what I mean? Because especially with A romantic. Whatever. Like, if, like, she built the company. It's her name, it's her brand. Like, what was wrong with him just being on staff? Pay him a great salary.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, because he's miserable and he's always. You know what I mean? It's like, these are two people who don't know how to operate in the world.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, it just seems to me like that was a romantic gesture from her. I love you. We're building this together. You're an integral part of the company. I'm getting like that is a bad idea.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, Lisa also claimed that James and Rhonda were colluding behind her back to sell the company and that they had given instructions to leave Lisa out of the loop.

[Patrick Hines]

Collusion? There's no collusion. Lisa knew this was all going down, so how could there be a collusion?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Collusion? No, girl, that shit was out in the open.

[Patrick Hines]

This part made no sense to me because it's like they can collude all they want. You don't have a board of directors. It's just the two of them. So she owns the majority share. They can't do anything very personal.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's all incredibly personal.

[Patrick Hines]

But I'm like, make this make sense to me, James or whoever, because there is no colluding against her. She owns the majority share of the.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

These are people who cannot separate personal and business. And now their divorce is becoming part of the business, which is fudgeing. Ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

But my point is just. They can't sell it. Like, only, like they. Without her sign.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're fighting to fight because it's personal.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's what I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So according to James, he went out to look for a new business partner. And they were going to put together a perspective. Do you know what I think of when I hear that word?

[Patrick Hines]

What?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

My so called life. When Angela's father, Graham, is going to open the restaurant with Halle Lowenthal.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they're fighting about the prospectus. And they go to meet at a restaurant and it's not. It's like an Italian restaurant and Halle Lowenthal brings Chinese food. And they're all. They're being pissy with each other with full mouths bickering about the damn prospectus.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And that's what I think about.

[Patrick Hines]

She was a great character. I loved her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, they were gonna.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Something anyway. So James is like, this was all very official. I wasn't colluding. It was all out in the open. I was looking for a new business partner. And Guess Lisa was on board with this.

[Patrick Hines]

I kind of believe that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, we'll never know because I know they get James's side.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, Rhonda confirms. Rhonda H. R. Confirms. Lisa wanted to sell, sell, sell. She was begging, pleading, praying, begging. Rhonda on the phone, please collude against me with James out in the open. Please, Rhonda.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I'm like, what are we missing here? Oh, Lisa Frank.

[Patrick Hines]

The story just makes no sense. It makes no sense.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And we keep seeing screenshots of the lawsuit that has typos in it. What are we doing here, by the way?

[Patrick Hines]

That would have solved a lot of problems if, like, you guys just sold company, took your billions of dollars and all went your separate ways, like, that's what you should have done.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. You know, it's all so ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Jennifer Mara is here. She did product design and development from 1998 to 2001. She always admired Lisa Frank. It was like, again, a dream to work with Lisa Frank. My artistic hero.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And she. Jennifer says, like, I admired Lisa Frank. Her influence on the culture and on the, you know, the soul of girls who grew up in a certain era, it was huge. It's her name. It's her thing, you know? You can't do that. It's not his to take everything she's worked her whole life for. It's like, really, man? You think that. That you have a right to do that? Jennifer starts getting super emotional about this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's crying.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And the person behind the camera is asking her why, and she's like, he just can't take it. Like, maybe he works hard in the trenches, but he can't say it's all his because in the paperwork, that's what he's saying. James Green is Lisa Frank.

[Patrick Hines]

But, I mean, what is making my head explode here is that, like, I don't mean to give away the ending, but, like, he doesn't win because he can't possibly. Because it isn't his. He can't take it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And meanwhile, you asshole, everyone else is on food stamps.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So come on.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You. They are fighting. This is their divorce playing out in their business, and it is ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

And what else is happening here is that we know more than the employees know because we're watching the documentary. So everyone's being a little bit emotional here, but it's like, he owns less of the company than her. Like, there's nothing. He can't take it. Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And in the middle of the litigation, James has employees make him Copies of all the production files, AKA everything James would need to steal to go out on his own.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Taking people away from their daily work. Now then we get a headline. Lisa Frank Inc's corporate jet is that center of new suit. Won't someone please think of the private jet people? Stamps can't feed their.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't understand.

[Patrick Hines]

I wonder how much that private jet costs. I don't like, you know?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, they're fighting. It's just their divorce seeping into their business because their divorce was. And it was hand in hand with their business because they were secretly married or dating and didn't tell anyone. Like, these people don't know how to separate it.

[Patrick Hines]

We get a telling moment from a producer who says to James, because one of the other reasons he was having that person copy all of this stuff was so that he could, like, have his own artwork or whatever. The producer says, do you wish that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You had been able to keep some of your art?

[Patrick Hines]

Of course, but it's not my property. Of course. But it's not my property.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So he gets it sometimes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, this makes sense to me. Why? Why? I'm like, well, of all the people who work at Lisa Frank, why am I the only one who got. That's it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Travel down the road.

[Patrick Hines]

Back again, girl. ZipRecruiter is back. You know how much I love making podcasts, right?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Same.

[Patrick Hines]

Listen, if you're like Jillian and me and you're doing what you love to do, there is nothing better than being surrounded by people who love it as much as you do.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And if you own your own business, you want to hire employees who love what they do to boost the overall success of said business.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Plus make it a pretty great place to work.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, that helps.

[Patrick Hines]

But how do you find passionate employees who are a good fit for your role? I got the answer for you, fam. It's ZipRecruiter.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And right now you can try it for [e-mail] TCO yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So listen to this. ZipRecruiter is a hiring site employers prefer the Most based on G2. I have hired many people through ZipRecruiter, and it's always been amazing.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know why? Because they have that smart technology.

[Patrick Hines]

That's right. Tell them about it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because it makes it super fast. So they start showing your job to qualify candidates immediately.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it has this powerful matching technology. And so you're not wasting your time, you're not wasting your money.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And it will invite people who are like, qualified candidates to apply for the job. It basically finds the people for you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Come on.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, come on. So, fam, hire experienced people who are excited about what they do with ZipRecruiter. I cannot tell you how valuable it is to hire people who are excited about what they do.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's true. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

[Patrick Hines]

Happened to me many times. See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try ZipRecruiter for free. Ziprecruiter.com TCO Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com TCO ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire and fastest and very. I mean, it does the work for you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Good, because we don't have a lot of time.

[Patrick Hines]

We don't. We're busy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So by 2005, James Green and H. Rhonda are officially moved from Lisa Frank Inc.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, I would like to know more about that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So I have some of information. So the battle of the 49% in shares continues for another six years. In the end, Lisa Frank wins and James has to sell those shares back to her.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We don't know how much he got, but as per the Internet quote, according to court documents, shareholder distributions to Lisa Frank and James Green totaled more than $100 million between 1995 and 2005 alone. James made $50 million over 10 years and was not required to pay any of it back. So the fact that we're even talking about this is sickening and ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's what I'm saying. That like he said, she gave him those shares. Those were his on paper. He sold them back to her and made $50 million. Why is there a documentary? The documentary should just be about how shitty they were to their employees.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Episode four.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, episode one.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And episode four.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally. And when we get to episode four, by the way, it is bananas.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So that aside, the divorce gets uglier and uglier. These two hate each other. So everything is, like, intertwined, the business, the personal. They have to divide their assets, and now they have to figure out custody.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And this has been toxic from the beginning. Kids are totally in the middle. Hunter, who's here, is saying she was trying to make my dad this abusive guy. Hunter never saw that side of James. Hunter is not talking about that now, but in writing, Lisa Frank alleges that James Green physically hit the children. Quote, he would leave Handful Prince. Now Hunter is here and he's not asked about that specifically.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, he.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's also very clear he loves and supports his father.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So we just get what's in the litigation and we don't get anything else about that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And like look to her credit, if she was protecting the kids because he was physically abusive, I get it. You do whatever you have to do.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Lisa Frank says also in the litigation, essentially James was the fun parent. He wasn't around for the big decisions. He didn't have to be the bad guy because he was never around.

[Patrick Hines]

And she gave up most of her responsibility when the kids came and she stayed at home with them. Like she made a major sacrifice to be the primary parent.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now Hunter sees this all very differently. This is really important. I want to slow down on this. He says my mom would come to my baseball games, but she brought her work with her.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't believe it for a second. Potentially she was working on the products. But there's a time and place. I mean I would say my dad was the ambitious one. He's the one working 24 7. He's the one at the office. He's the one building this massive company. I would say he's ambitious. I would say she's selfish.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And why do you feel that her.

[Patrick Hines]

Work made her selfish but him, his work made him ambitious? Well, because I don't think she was doing all that much.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Well, because I don't think she was doing all that much.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's just, it's so. I just feel like the 10 year old hunter is speaking.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, that's exactly. I mean I think my therapist would agree with you. It is all that trauma comes from your childhood and that is the 10 year old hunter acting out because.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And based on what James was saying to him, it's misogyny at work here because she says the person behind the camera, the producer, the director. I'm sorry, I don't know the role here, but what do you give your mom credit for, right? He says hiring my dad.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. She had an eye for talent.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is just ridiculous.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? But it is like this kid needs a lot of therapy. Like I'm not saying you got to love your mom and I'm sure that she was a shitty parent, but this is like you gotta. I'm saying for his own mental health well being, go work this shit out and really get to the bottom of your feelings and understand why you feel that way. Because this is not a, this is not a good way to walk through the world.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's very complicated. Because she does evil, cruel things.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's very, very, very complicated, but I think it' lifetime of James and Hunter.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, having been to children's sporting events, do I believe for a second that, like, she showed up with a notebook full of paperwork and was sitting there doing that while all the other parents were watching? I do not believe that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. That just. No. No parent would do that, really. If for no other reason than the peer pressure of the other parents looking at you like, what an.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's just something that they have in the movies, then.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've never seen it, like, you know what I mean? No. There are plenty of parents who don't show up. There are plenty of parents who, like, prioritize their work over their kids or whatever.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, to do right there in front of everybody else. I just. I don't really.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I could have. I would have bought that.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That she had, like, you know, she was approving art or something, like, in between innings.

[Patrick Hines]

I. Maybe. But I mean, maybe I just think that, like, especially when it's, like, you're. The reputation for, like, being the big, bad businesswoman, like, you would be there. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, but I. When he said that, I had a very strong visual of, like, what that would look like, and I was like, I just. I just can't see it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So James can see the kids on weekends. Hunter's 15 years old.

[Patrick Hines]

So I go to my dad's house. We spend a week together, and it was the best week of my freaking life. I told my dad I cannot go back to her house. And he said, you have to, man. Like, he's like, there's nothing I can do. It's the first time I ever saw.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

My dad cry ever in my life.

[Patrick Hines]

My dad's a tough guy. I told him I can't go back.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I never did. So he runs away to his father's house to stay for a week and then refuses to go back home with his mother. And Lisa can't understand why this is happening. And I'm like, she can't understand why.

[Patrick Hines]

This is happening to her. Her. She says to him, why are you doing this?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They always say. That's what they always say.

[Patrick Hines]

That is insane.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They always say, but it's like your divorce made his life hell.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

On purpose. He was a pawn. I've seen it happen to siblings.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Where the parents are fudgeing nightmares. I've seen it happen firsthand. I'm not Getting into it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But the kids always suffer when you can't see the forest for the fudgeing trees.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If you hate this person so much, then figure out a way to not have to fight with them all the time and just separate yourself. I'm not saying that like it's easy. I'm talking about a very specific situation. So I'm projecting a little bit here, but someone that I knew who went through this, but it's. It just feels like people just want to fight and it gets personal, and you want to hurt and you want to torture, and that's what you want to do. And no one's thinking about the kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? I mean, and. Yeah, no, that's exact. That's exactly right. Why are you doing this to me? She texted him and James.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So by 2006, James is out of the company, and Lisa Frank is taking Lisa Frank, Inc. Into the future. And the artists are happy about this?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. In the beginning, we meet this guy Josh, who was a lead designer who left the company in 2005 because of the toxic work environment. Environment they call. This story is so insane. He's moved away. He moved his family to Tucson to work for Lisa Frank. He left the company, and they moved somewhere else. Then in 2006, they call him and beg him to come back because they want to go back to basics, and he's the only one who can lead the charge.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're like, james and Rhonda are gone. We're getting the band back together. You were our old lead illustrator. We need you back.

[Patrick Hines]

He moves his family back to Tucson. And, like, in the beginning, things are going well. Like, he's saying, Lisa was really collaborative. She would come to my desk. We would. You know, we would work together. We would share ideas, but it doesn't work. He says, like, he could never actually produce anything that Lisa actually liked. I would present Lisa with a bunch.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Of different ideas, and she would absolutely hate everything I had worked on. What I remember, she would just get.

[Patrick Hines]

Madder and madder into, like, a hail of insults.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You suck.

[Patrick Hines]

You need to go back to college. I can't believe we're paying this money to you. You know, just on and on. I can't believe we're paying you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Barely.

[Patrick Hines]

The idea that an employer would talk to an employee like that, it just blows my mind. This was the thing that really got me, too. He's like, you weather the insult, but you still don't get the answer as to what she's actually looking for.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The thing that she does, which Will come to light later. One day she'd like a design, and then the next day she'd hate the very same design. And there was no answer or no direction. She was impossible. Impossible to please. And she didn't want to work with anyone to get to a common goal.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She was just being a fudgeing curmudgeon.

[Patrick Hines]

She says it fel directionless, which is like when you're working for somebody else. What a horrible feeling. Like, you just come and sit at your desk every day, and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing, except I know that everything I'm doing is wrong.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And looking back, he's like, they were both awful to work for.

[Patrick Hines]

And James, Josh gets fired. Like, they hired him back in 2006, and he is fired in 2006. He's, like, relocated his family back to Tucson for this job that now does not exist.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. So by 2013, the company technically exists, but it's not anywhere on the shelves. It's like, Lisa Frank, Inc. Is just Lisa Frank and her personal assistant.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And they're saying that, like, she's basically just, like, licensing out her name or, like, her designs to other producers, which I'm like, sweet gig if you can get it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And so by 2015, James is a new art director, and he's hired to revamp the whole vibe with new characters and new products. And he only did that for six months because he's like, I walked in on my first day, and I knew it was going to be a mess. He shows up. It's an enormous building, but it's abandoned. Like, the landscaping is overgrown.

[Patrick Hines]

He says there should be 200 people working in a building this size. There was maybe 10 people.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, it's very creepy. It's this big, empty space that were, like old relics from the glory days just kind of staring at him, which.

[Patrick Hines]

Is just so sad to me because it's, like, at its height, like, that building was, like, beautiful, and you could see it from heaven. And, you know, it was, like, meant to be this, like, this beautiful design space now. And you can see it feels like one of those creepy, abandoned malls, you know, like, it's got that vibe to it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And this guy says that, like, his job was to revamp the whole aesthetic. And he's like, I would have loved to do that, but he basically wasn't allowed. It was all micromanaging. She was looking over his shoulder. His creativity was being stifled. Don't speak unless spoken to. Like, where are we?

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And he says Lisa said she wanted something new, but really she wanted to recreate the glory days.

[Patrick Hines]

I believe Lisa just wanted to fall back on some of her previous legacy characters. And I think it's because she felt, well, successful once. Let's try it again.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I say it with some remorse too.

[Patrick Hines]

Because I saw the potential.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But I think Lisa stood in her own way. Honestly, she just stood in her own way. And I'm like, this is so crazy because by 2015 90s nostalgia is such a vibe, right? Totally could have capitalized on it and she wouldn't let it happen.

[Patrick Hines]

And so you hire people who know about this stuff and then you don't let them do it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She just let it die. In 2015, girl, we could have been like.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's funny because you remember back in like episode one where she was talking about like, I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want to do the thing that's going to be that. So like she, she stopped making any decisions. She just, all of a sudden she ever. She liked it, then she hated it, and then it's just very sad. She just got in her own way. Like you said. James tells this really sad story about going to a trade show in Nevada. Because he was talking like it was this really big trade show where like all the Marvel people were there, the biggest people in the industry were there. And he just happened to be there. And he walks by Lisa Frank in the very back of the expo. She's sitting at a single folding table. She's got like a taped up logo that says Lisa Frank. And he's like, it was just so sad. She should have been in the front with the major players. And this is how far she's fought. She's like representing herself at a single folding table at this expo. And it was just so sad.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it didn't have to be that way. No, that's the whole point.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Was her worst fear being realized?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm shrugging my shoulders.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Don't treat people like travel. Down girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Armor colostrum is back. I have been taking this for a while now. It's four scoops a day. And you just mix it in water or something cool. Some cool beverage. And it does so many things for your body. We're talking it strengthens immunity, fortifies gut health, it ignites metabolism, vitalizes hair growth, it enhances skin radiance, fuels performance and recovery. I'm really doing it to boost my immunity because, you know, I'm on tour right now. I'm meeting a lot of people. I'm trying to stay healthy.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's not only that time of year where people are getting sick, but you're also, like, meeting people. You're going on planes. It's so important for your immune system.

[Patrick Hines]

I had never heard of this thing until they were advertising with us. And then I was like, I'm going to try this. Then I'm at the gym, I'm hearing everybody talk about it. It's so easy to take. And like, I'm sorry, I'm not young anymore. I need help with all of these things.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But I was going to say it's so easy to take and it does so many things.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, like, oh, you're taking it for your boosted immune system, but like, oh, also like, your skin is more radiant. Okay, great. I'll take it.

[Patrick Hines]

Listen, Armor Colostrum was physician founded. It has literally thousands of benefits. This Colostrum idea goes back, like, centuries.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And it also has ready for this. Thousands of benefits.

[Patrick Hines]

Thousands.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Thousands.

[Patrick Hines]

No. We're obsessed. It's so. Like I said, it's so easy to take. You're doing a great thing for yourself and fam. We have worked out a special offer for our our audience. You can receive 15% off your first order.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Go to tryarmora.com tco or enter tco to get 15% off your first order.

[Patrick Hines]

That's T R Y A R m r a.com TCO.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There you go.

[Patrick Hines]

Do it. If all the gym bros are doing it and me, you should get on there.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Imagine, like, enhanced skin Radiance is just like a side effect. You're just getting that cherry on top. I'll take it.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Rocket Money is back. I tried to sing a rocketman thing. I was gonna do a jingle.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I liked it, but.

[Patrick Hines]

Rocket Money.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, Rocket Money, if you don't know, it's the personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bill so you can grow your savings.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And you're also figuring out what subscriptions you actually want. It's not just about the subscriptions that are tricking you. Or you're like, I forgot I had that. No, Because I just learned that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription that's going unused each month.

[Patrick Hines]

At least I probably have 10.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. So you can see all your subscriptions in one place and be like, oh, I did sign up for that. Am I actually using it or Reminder, I have that thing I should start.

[Patrick Hines]

Using it get this. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They will also try to negotiate your bills for you to get lower bills. So they automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save, and then you can ask them to negotiate for you, and they'll deal with customer service, and you don't even have to deal with it.

[Patrick Hines]

It is the greatest that canceling your unwanted subscriptions. As everyone knows, I've been using this for forever. The first time I got in there, I think it canceled, like, 10.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's amazing. You feel free. You feel like the first nice Friday afternoon in the spring. You're like, I can do anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Because we've all had that morning that you wake up and you're like, I know that there's, like, 10 things. I just got charged with a confirmation.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Email that's like, thanks for the charge. And you're, like, charged for what?

[Patrick Hines]

Not anymore. Fam. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your final financial goes faster with Rocket Money.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Go to RocketMoney.com obsessed today.

[Patrick Hines]

That's RocketMoney.com obsessed RocketMoney.com obsessed Rocket Money.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That was a better one than the first one. You found it the second time around. I think we're at episode four. Yeah. We meet Peter and Jessica, and they have a story. And Peter says something where I'm like, please don't be garbage, because Amen's sister.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. He goes, we were young and excited, and when you find yourself in the middle of a crazy story, you sound crazy. Just trying to tell people the truth.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You sound crazy when you're telling people the truth.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I'm like, huh? So, like, been there, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Jessica and Peter have a makeup company called Glamour Dolls. Makeup.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

In 2016, they reach out to Lisa Frank for a collaboration.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they tell us, like, how they met. They're introduced by, like, Jessica's boyfriend at the time. And Jessica's like, we bonded. It's very nonsex. Let me make that clear. Yeah, they were just business partners. And they sort of like. She's like, look, I know makeup isn't rocket scientist, but I like making people feel good. And that's amazing. And Jessica is on top of it.

[Patrick Hines]

She's amazing. And they had this really great idea for a company. So it was like, makeup for, like, little girls, and everything was under $5.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's in 2013. They launched Glamour dolls. Jessica's explaining, good quality, great price point, accessible products, cruelty free, vegan. And I'm like, nice to meet you. Where you been? I know I show you incredible things. Like, I don't understand how I miss same.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, it was a very. I think it was small and not around very long for a reason. We're about to explain.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Kind of sad when we. I went to their website today, but it kind of reminded me of that company Elf, that I love this. It's super, super affordable vegan.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So they were. But Glamour dolls, my part of their.

[Patrick Hines]

Company that I love. They're hustling, they're going to the warehouses themselves. They're loading the cars, they're driving the product to the stores.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Totally homegrown.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally homegrown. They just want this thing to succeed and people love it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And by 2015, they're in Joyce Leslie, which Jessica says is a New Jersey staple for.

[Patrick Hines]

It's where you go for your going out clothes when you live in New Jersey.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. I'll never forget that weekend, our first weekend. Like, we literally sold out the shelves. And then Walmart's emailing us and they wanted us to sell on their website. We were growing really rapidly. We definitely were never close to rich, but we were close to just being comfortable, you know, where I could pay my rent. And then Lisa Frank happened. And then Lisa Frank happened.

[Patrick Hines]

So they're starting to think about collaboration, right. And like, how can they want to take their makeup brand and collaborate with other companies and just, you know, keep moving it forward? And so she says, of course Lisa Frank pops into their head because it's four young girls. They love, like, they love animals. Lisa Frank is all about the animals.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's 2016, so the timing of it. We just ended the episode where the guy they hired to revamp everything in 2015 was like, she's just sitting by herself at a trade show. This is 2016. And these people who are hustling, who are loving what they do, they want to do the nostalgia thing. Yeah, they are Lisa Frank people. Totally cruelty free. They love animals. It sounds perfect, right? And I'm like, Jessica, yes, it sounds perfect.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So they're trying to contact Lisa Frank and it's actually hard to find any contact information for the company, which is always a major red flag.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, totally.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they make some calls and finally, like, call someone. 5. They like, hit the right number.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And someone answers and they pitch it to Lisa. The same thing. Jessica just said, look, I love your brand. We love Your brand. We're like, we're ready to hit the ground running. You love animals, we love animals. We love your esthetic. This is what we want to do.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, nostalgia is in right now. We're going to introduce your product to a whole new, like, generation of kids.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Jessica's excited because Lisa Frank is a woman and she says, like, she's a really successful woman in a really similar business.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Jessica talks about being a woman in business. Like she says people address questions to Peter. She started wearing glasses to be taken more seriously in meetings.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And like, I just understand, like any woman knows I was talking to someone at actually whose job it is is to assess businesses. Like, that's what he does for a living. And he was just like, I'm going to tell you something that you're going to hate. And I was like, what? And he's like, you'll never not deal with misogyny in what you do in business. It doesn't matter how successful you are or how much experience you have or how smart you are, you will always be dealing with misogyny. And I was like, well, thanks a lot. And I know that that's true. But just say when he's like, I see it in every business, big and small, like, this is what I do. It's. You're always going to be facing it. So, like, welcome. And I'm like, well, thanks. It sucks here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Jessica's super excited. She has really high hopes. She thinks this could be amazing. Another woman in business and like her hero. And this collaboration is a freaking no brainer. So she can't wait.

[Patrick Hines]

And she seems, I'm just going to say this year she seems awesome to work with. You know what I mean?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She and Peter seem to be doing it well and they are a little naive and they both say that. And I do have a little bit of business notes, but it's like hindsight's 20 20. What are you going to do?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But they get a deal going in of weeks because Lisa Frank again is sitting by herself at trade shows.

[Patrick Hines]

And they have no idea about that. It seems like there was no due diligence here. Like, they didn't look into the Lisa Frank company very much because if they had, I think they would know that they are in a much better bargaining position than I think they think 100%.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, you know, this deal that they have going in a matter of weeks.

[Patrick Hines]

Is the first contract that we had with Lisa. She required a guaranteed minimum royalty of $100,000 for 2017 and a $25,000 advance. And then 15% of our net sales, which we later learned was on the side for licensing. So it's $100,000 for the one year plus 15% of net sales.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's plus a $25,000 non refundable advance.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I mean, that just seems like an awful lot of money. But they've got ideas. You know, they don't have a lot of money, but they have ideas. And the one thing they want to do is, like, launch their campaign on Kickstarter.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's a crowdfunding campaign. And this could be amazing with the nostalgia factor. Like, this is kind of the world is ready for, like, Lisa Frank to come back.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, does everybody remember Kickstarter? Is that still a thing?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Now it's like GoFundMe. It's like they have 10 different. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's a way of like, getting the people who want your thing to exist to sort of pay for it ahead of time to give you the funding to make it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. And Lisa Frank is really into the Kickstarter idea. They all go meet Peter and Jessica and Lisa Frank go to meet at the Kickstarter offices, which is a really big deal because I'm sure that means that they're going to be promoted and they're definitely going to get funded.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So this was on track to be very. If done right, very, very, very successful.

[Patrick Hines]

And Jessica is so excited about this New York meeting because it means that she's going to meet Lisa Frank, her hero, in person. And Lisa shows up and Jessica's blown away. She's like. She was in platform shoes. She had a fringe bag. It was like she stepped out of the 90s.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She looks very Lisa Frank still to this day.

[Patrick Hines]

And she was like, initially she was very nice and pleasant.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Like, nice enough. And then she's really into privacy. Like, Jessica couldn't take a photo with Lisa even though they were going to work together, but she could post a photo of Lisa Frank's extremely Lisa Frank N. What do you think is behind.

[Patrick Hines]

The, like, no picture? Like, what's with the privacy?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I don't know. I think it's stupid. I think it's very, like, could you. Could you shut up? Like, what is the. Like, who cares? Unless she's like, oh, no, not now, but maybe later. Yeah, I'm not like, Right. I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, no pictures. Like, you're like, you. You're not. I don't know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It feels like A power play, totally. So everything's amazing until they get coffee after the big Kickstarter meeting. And that's when everything changed because Jessica starts excitedly showing Lisa Frank these potential designs. Lisa Franklin was. I mean, next level. She was really pissed. She didn't want just a character, pretty much. She just wanted her standard pattern. This is the pattern she sent us. Listen, I will. I will take some of the blame here. She's Lisa fucking Frank. I should have just maybe just sat there and listened at this point, you know, But I was so excited and I had these ideas and I wanted to share them with her. And she's like, I don't want a version of my designs. I want the actual designs. Now, I will say as a consumer.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

If we're bringing Lisa Frank back and you're asking me to pay for the process because just to be clear, the kickstarting campaign was going to be. You donate to the campaign and then it was basically a pre order for the line.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So you were like, you were helping fund it and then you would get the product. Just to be clear.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So if I'm a consumer and it's like, Lisa Frank is back, I don't want a version. I want the Lisa Frank I know and love.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So the idea. I see what Lisa Frank is saying. She just did it all wrong. I don't want a version of it. Anyone can do that. If it's a Lisa Frank collaboration and you're at asking me to help pay for it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I want my childhood Lisa Frank vision.

[Patrick Hines]

It just seems like if you're collaborating, because what happens is Lisa's yelling at her in this coffee shop, then immediately. Speaking of misogyny in business, Lisa tells Peter he wants Jessica off the campaign.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No more communication with Jessica at all.

[Patrick Hines]

She only wants to deal with Peter after one meeting. And like, Jessica's half the company.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Which is it? Yeah. So once again, Lisa Frank really doesn't know how to do the business part of running a business, because you have to be able to communicate, you have to be able to have disagreements. It's not personal business. Don't be so short sighted. Kickstarter is going to help you get funded. Like, can you just have a conversation? And who else is knocking on your door? Lisa Frank.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So. But Jessica basically says, if my best friend was dating Lisa Frank, I'd be calling out the red flags left and right.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because they were there from day one. And Jessica was like, I just didn't think she'd do it to us.

[Patrick Hines]

Isn't that what they all say? She said they Google Lisa Frank and all of this is right there. That Jezebel article is the first thing to come up. They saw that she wasn't good to her employees, that she had an explosive divorce from her husband. Like, this woman does not seem pleasant or stable or certainly not easy to work with.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Jessica says, like, we read it all. We knew. We just thought we'd be different. And there's a part of me that's like, well, you think we're not her employees. We're going to be in business with her. We're a partner. Like, she needs us for her reputation. I'm sure there will be lawyers. Like, yeah, whatever. It's not the same situation with us. Like, I can see how if you really want this deal to happen.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You would do the mental gymnastics to be like, well, that's not the same situation.

[Patrick Hines]

And they're very excited about it. Like, this is going to be like the next big thing for them. And like, Kickstarter is excited about it. Like, this is like big.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's a slam dunk. It's going to get funded.

[Patrick Hines]

No question.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So or so they think. So they push through. Lisa Frank will only speak to Peter and they felt it was easier to deal with her than just say no because the campaign was off and running.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, some of the stuff that they come up with is so awesome. They come up with this, like an eyeshadow thing.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Palette.

[Patrick Hines]

Palette in the form of a Trapper Keeper.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's so perfect. They had this vegan leather bag that was so perfectly nostalgic.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The campaign launches and it immediately goes viral. And I'm like, how did I miss this? Everyone was all over it, it everywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

It was like 2017. I mean, I guess this was like, before TikTok.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. But, like, it's all over the news. It's on the morning shows. Like, the whole thing was about how excited everyone was that Lisa Frank was back and we all get to be a part of it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yes. And it's amazing for Lisa Frank, you think she would be like, it's a rebirth for her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. And like, this is amazing business. For Jessica and Peter.

[Patrick Hines]

There was like a two week period when we started getting contacted by almost every major retailer in America that we would want to do business with. That was like everything that you dream of with a startup.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It was like the top makeup launch ever on Kickstarter. They're breaking Kickstarter records.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is the dream. Like, it could not have gone better. And it all comes crashing down, thanks to Lisa Frank herself.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because what they're saying is they launched the Kickstarter in February of 2017. Now, anybody. And I think both of the people in this booth have launched Kickstarters.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, the biggest challenge of doing a Kickstarter is actually delivering the goods that you're promised for the funding. And so the goal was to move straight to manufacturing and have people. So they launch in February, they want to go straight to manufacturing, and they want to have people receiving their product by, like, September through the end of the year. It's a very, very, very fast timeline.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Can I just like a note to people who do campaigns like this, Please just be honest about the timeline from the beginning. I don't care when I'm getting the thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Truly.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Chances are it's not why I supported you to get the thing. I'm sure that's not always the case.

[Patrick Hines]

In this instance, it seems to not be the case.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, that is a product. I did a Kickstarter for a web series. Different. I was making the web series anyway.

[Patrick Hines]

Ye.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We were making, like, all of the perks, like we did on the day and gave it to you. But, like, I did one for my friend's book the other day, and it's like, I don't care when I get the book. I just want to help you make it. So when I support your book or whatever in the campaign, it's not because I want it by a certain time.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So I'm not going to, like, not give you money. And, like, the constant updates and apologies are just annoying. So it's better to assume a long time. And then we're relieved when you make great time.

[Patrick Hines]

Truly. And if they had done that, if they'd been like, you're going to get the product in 18 months or two, whatever it is, they were offering it in months. And there's just too many variables. Like, because of the way the contract was structured, Lisa Frank had so much power over the making of the thing, and they have no power over how long she takes to make decisions.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She's doing that thing where she's not making decisions. She's being difficult for the sake of being difficult. So, like, she'd have 10 specifications. They do all of it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And then there would be nothing else to do or change. We've gone through this a million times. And then she'd be like, start over. I don't like it at all. Now we have to do something totally different.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And it's the same old Shit, she's been doing her entire entire career. But then she was messing with the campaign. Like she demand that she wanted the bag to be vinyl, but the campaign was selling specifically a vegan leather bag.

[Patrick Hines]

And when we see the markup of this vegan leather bag, I know nothing about nothing. I've got no taste at all. This bag, the vegan leather bag they were going to make, was so gorgeous.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's very nostalgic. It's perfect.

[Patrick Hines]

And it was like a lot of Lisa Frank suggestions were incredible. And when it seemed like there was nothing else for her to ask for, she told us that she wanted us to start over, use a completely different material, like a plastic vinyl. It didn't matter to her that the customers ordered a vegan leather bag. Her response basically was just that. Plastic is vegan.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Shut up. Vinyl is vegan. Stop it. Now people are getting angry online because they're. They're not getting what they paid for in record time. Jessica and Peter are having trouble responding because they don't want to ruin all of this by throwing Lisa Frank under the bus. The name of the game is keep her happy and maybe we'll be able to do this. Yeah, but, like, can everyone also calm down? We live in this insane world where anytime someone feels slighted in any way, there's this urge to go online and publicly destroy the whoever they think is to blame.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So, like, no one asks a question, no one's curious. There's no patience, there's no empathy.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone just assumes they're getting ripped off.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, needs to win the victim Olympics. So we have 500 videos of people screaming about their rainbow unicorn lip gloss and a million negative reviews with all of these accusations. And I get it. You paid for something, you were told you'd get it by a certain time, you didn't get it by a certain time. But can we work on our emotional regulation for five minutes? This is not a normal response to being disappointed by something.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not. And it's like, nobody tells the makeup side of this what to do, what is the right, how much. Like, they're saying they want to be fully transparent, but they, they know they can't be. And they bring in consultants in the beauty industry, people that have been working in the industry for decades. Senior people started telling me right away that her behavior was very atypical for things that they had seen.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We had a consultant and she literally sat us down. And this meeting is one I'll never forget. And she was like, she's like, guys.

[Patrick Hines]

You need to bail, you gotta get out of it. And they're saying we can't bail. We've raised like $475,000. We've paid this woman over $100,000. This is our life's work. If we bail, it's all over.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they clearly, I'm assuming because we never heard the word lawyer. But I don't think they had a lawyer. Cuz why are you paying her without any products?

[Patrick Hines]

And why was the contract so stacked in her favor when she had nothing else going on?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They just thought it was like the machine of Lisa Frank. And I understand again, the mental gymnastics you do when you just want something to work. Yeah, I get it. But it's looking back. You're like, oh my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Travel down the road.

[Patrick Hines]

Back again, girl. Pear Eyewear is back. Can you take this intro for me?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Look, you don't have to be a private eye to see what others often overlook.

[Patrick Hines]

You nailed it. Look, all I know is I had my pair of eyeglasses as my backup glasses. Then my friends stepped on my other glasses. They snapped in half. I put the pears on. I have never looked back.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They became your full time glasses. And you were like, why were they not always my full time glasses? Now they are forever.

[Patrick Hines]

They also have these things called top frames. These top frames, you can do anything. Like you can add other colors, other total looks. I did sparkly stuff to make my glasses super gay sometimes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, they just snap on.

[Patrick Hines]

These top frames just snap on. And they're inexpensive and like you can change your look every single day. Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And speaking of the base frames though.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They have this virtual try on.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so you can find your perfect frame shape at home with this try on. And then they have like these durable frames with sleek metal. And then they have these perfectly proportioned wide frames. Whatever kind of frame you want. Tell me about the lenses.

[Patrick Hines]

So the lenses are great. They are the least expensive lenses I've ever purchased. Wow. They are like amazing. They're durable. I drop mine all the time. They have not scratched. I've got all the scratch resistant stuff on there.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah. Base frame start at 60 bucks and top frame start at just $25.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You get free return and exchanges within 30 days, no questions asked. Wow.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because you really do have to kind of live in it. I get that.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. And you can earn points to score dollars off your next purchase with their loyalty program.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I love my pair of eyeglasses. So fam, show the world you've got a Sharp eye.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Go to pair eyewear.com and use code TC obsessed for 15% off your first pair.

[Patrick Hines]

And support the show by mentioning True Crime Obsessed. Sent you in your post checkout survey.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's P A I R I Code TC Obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm telling you, go get those top frames. You're going to thank me for it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like all kinds. They had sparkly, they have Disney kind.

[Patrick Hines]

They're like everywhere.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So Peter is Greek.

[Patrick Hines]

We're going to Greece and not to Mykonos. We are not going to Pernilla's yacht on this trip.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No, Peter just happens to be Greek. Yeah, and I'm sure, whatever. And she wants Peter to plan this extravagant trip to Greece for her son Faris with no expense spared.

[Patrick Hines]

And when, when we say plan, she wants him to this man who is, who is running this makeup company. She wants him act as her personal assistant and not only plan the trip, go on it with her.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's why at the very least, it's wildly inappropriate.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so weird. Like, she convinces him that it will also be a business trip. And he says, when we got there, it certainly did not feel like a business trip. He says it was the most stressful two weeks of his entire life. He was their driver, translator, assistant. He said it was his job to run around and make this awesome trip for Forest. Like, she doesn't speak to her one son, but she's taking the other son in this million dollar Greek vacation.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And like, also, Lisa and her kids stayed in the $5,000 a night presidential suite and Peter was in the shitty Airbnb. No, either you're all going together or you're not going. But like, what did they put Peter and Coach too? And they're walking on first class. Bye. And there he is in the line for coach.

[Patrick Hines]

But Peter, you have agency here. Like, I know what they're. What he's saying. He's like, we had to make. We had to do everything she said because remember, this licensing deal is only for one year and the product is not going to be created within that year. So if she doesn't sign for another year, they may have the product, but they can't do anything with it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But also, lis on the trip is a fucking nightmare. It's like, this is. You can't. Again, she's not learning right. So she mixed business and personal with the marriage and the divorce. And now she's doing it again, weirdly, with his vacation. And now she's a nightmare. She's complaining about everything. She's Demanding they change hotel rooms. Nothing was enough. I'm like, imagine being at a restaurant with her.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so Lisa, like, they're on this vacation, which is hell on earth for Peter, and she's dragging her feet. So the agreement they had was for one year.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That year is almost up, and they now they have to start over with the paperwork.

[Patrick Hines]

And Jessica says, I think she was dragging her feet so that we would have to renew the license.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's exactly what she was doing.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, that is.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She was running out the clock.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. But again, they should have known they were not going to be able to get this done in one year. The original contract should have been for two years.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So this is when Lisa Frank changes everything on them.

[Patrick Hines]

Minimum royalty had increased from $100,000 to $500,000.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

The advances she wanted went from 25,000 a quarter to 125 a quarter. Like, that's not, like, a small increase.

[Patrick Hines]

And she now wanted the payment at the beginning of each quarter. That effectively sped up the timeline for how quickly she was getting money out of us. And what's happening is she saw the Kickstarter money and she just wants it all for herself.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And now that they're on the hook for Kickstarter and people made all these orders, if Jessica and Peter didn't renew for another year, they wouldn't be able to finish the Kickstarter product. So they feel, oh, my God, we have to do this. It's the only way to make good on our. All our promise.

[Patrick Hines]

They've already spent most of the Kickstarter money. They've got to deliver the product, or they literally have stolen this stuff from these people. And they. And they also can't get on Kickstarter and explain, well, like, the delays are because she's a nightmare. And also now we need more money because she's charged. Like, they can't explain any of this to these people.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So By April of 2018, they had paid Lisa Frank over $500,000, and they still hadn't finished any of the Kickstarter products. Yeah, they were supposed to be sent in September of 2017. It's now April of 2018. So they raised 475,000 on Kickstarter. All of it went to Lisa Frank. They have nothing to show for it. They're eating cereal for dinner and, like, crying over their shattered dreams. And Lisa Frank is being a difficult nightmare, not even helping them. And it's like, for what? You all could have been millionaires.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Everyone was, like, so eager for this.

[Patrick Hines]

Imagine how much more they could have done together.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So the backers of the campaign are pissed because they think Jessica and Peter are shady liars. They're talking shit about them online, saying things that are 100% not true. Like, Jessica took all the money for this extravagant wedding. She's like, I paid for that wedding myself.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, like, Jessica, maybe not the best time to post, like, pictures of your fancy wedding online.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No one ever thinks it's going to be as bad as it's going to be. And people are commenting. It's just shameful. They're attacking their families, making videos. Again, this is not a normal response. No one is. Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We get a screenshot of some woman. My daughter is op cess with Lisa Frank. Op cess. And I had nothing to give her at all because her Christmas money went to this. Here it is, January, and I can't even give her a date. Unless you can give me a date in a week, I want my money back. My kid had no Christmas because of you and your delays. Thanks, guys. I'm just a mom who tried to make her kids Christmas. Amazing lady, please get your shit together.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Obviously have much bigger problems than this.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. But, you know, it also is frustrating when I was seeing it from the creator side in the sense that, like, it must have been so awful to be them and not to be able to explain why this is happening.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, you know, Jessica took money from her dad.

[Patrick Hines]

Now Jessica's crying.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

This is the part I get upset about because my parents helped me out. And my parents are, like, blue collar. My mom is a teacher. She works with children with autism. My dad is, like, 70 something. He's still working. He's not retired. And they loaned us money to try.

[Patrick Hines]

To make this work.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

She worked so hard. Her husband was financially supporting them. And Jessica and Peter's relationship, of course, falls apart because how do you handle this? Like, everyone's stressed. Like, money troubles are the fucking worst. It makes everyone. Everything is fractured. And for what? They picked up a phone and cold called Lisa Frank so that they could all have a successful business and now.

[Patrick Hines]

Look and gave her the biggest opportunity she'd had in, like, two decades.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And, like, it didn't have to be this way. Lisa Frank.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And we are not done with how they got so screwed by this contract.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. Because by 2018, Jessica leaves the company because she thinks it's for the best.

[Patrick Hines]

And she thinks her leaving the company is going to make Lisa happy, which will make Lisa easier to work with. And they'll finally get this all done. It's crazy, and it's so sad because it's like Jessica made this company her whole life. It was such a success story. Like, that's the thing that they can't get over was how successful they were. And all of that just got ripped away from them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So after Lisa Frank Inc. Gets the last of the royalty payments, they terminate the contract.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they leave Glamour Dolls destroyed. She totally tarnished their reputation. People online think they're thieves and scammers. It's a mess.

[Patrick Hines]

And they find out later that Lisa Frank Inc. Was emailing the backers, like, behind and lying behind Glamour Dolls back, saying that it was all Glamour Doll's fault. They had nothing to do with the Kickstarter.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They say as far as where the funds went, contributions went directly to Glamour Dolls. We were not involved with the campaign and do not have access to it. Only provided the artwork. Like, what is there to say? This is ind.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because the truth is, yes, it went to Glamour Dolls, but Glamour Dolls immediately turned around and wrote checks to Lisa Frank Inc. That money was. Yes, it was withdrawn by Glamour Dolls, but then they used that money to pay Lisa Frank, and she was just stringing them along.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Lisa Frank was at the meeting with Kickstarter, and now she's secretly dming people, being like, yeah, oh, my God. Aren't they the worst? I had nothing to do with all of this. They're using my name too, blah, blah, blah. And Jessica says, well, look, I was the face of Glamour Doll. So if you though Lisa Frank wouldn't speak to me.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I had nothing to do with anything. She got the worst of it. She goes, they came at me. She did nothing wrong. But here we go.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So she lost everything. She had to file for bankruptcy. Same with Peter. He's like, couch surfing.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. He had $10 to his name.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And my question is, like, what is the refund situation? Like, did they refund anyone? Was that even possible? Did they have the money to do that? Like, you would think that there would.

[Patrick Hines]

Have been some class action lawsuit if they hadn't been able to.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because if I paid for this awesome thing and then the company ceased to exist, and I never got a refund. Like, that sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or if I got stuff. Because I also read that people would get stuff in. The quality was so bad. It was, like, falling apart, really. So it's like, I still cannot imagine doxing anyone or, like, harassing their mother or something like this. But that's just.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's Like, Peter, it's time to write the expose now, girl. You know what I mean? Like, as soon as you lose everything and your company's gone anyway, you go to the New York Times with this story, you go to somewhere.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And I think a lot of the issues with the people with the backers were like, the lack of communication, like, like Glamour dollar definitely felt like their backs were against the wall. But at the same time, if you're a backer.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You're kind of like, well, you can't just like, take my money and disappear.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And like, I don't know, I mean, like, when, when this all falls apart anyway. Can you then finally send the long email to the backers explaining what happened?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

They must feel so vindicated by getting to be in this documentary. But still, still.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So while they're going through all this, there's an article about an influencer named Amina Tassel Ferry. And they're an artist. They're super colorful, known for their overall rainbowness. They loved Lisa Frank.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they were. They're like, I definitely knew about Lisa.

[Patrick Hines]

Frank and I loved the art. When I was growing up, I thought.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I was looking at a person that was like me.

[Patrick Hines]

I had all the stationery and, oh.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Anything with like a dolphin on it, forget it. I was ready for that. If there was a dolphin on it, I'm buying it.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, you look at this person, Tassel Fairy, and they are so colorful and bubbly and they're giving us a tour of their apartment. Truly, I'm not that, like, I'm not a rainbow person other than my obvious homosexuality. But, like, their apartment looks like a place I would love to go and hang out. It's bright and happy and colorful.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Amina's apartment, they call it Cloudland.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's bigger, but Cloudland is bigger than that because it's their way of what they say is showing the world how to embrace your inner child. Do what brings you joy. It's not immature or stupid. Like, you could still be a full grown successful person and live in a place like Cloudland.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And so Amina filmed and shared the whole process of creating Cloudland. Like, they already had a following on socials, but this made them explode. So many followers. Amina is on magazines feature on the Today show.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, Amina's content was this apartment and this colorful, colorful life.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so suddenly Lisa Frank follows Amina's Instagram and like, and Amina is so excited. It's total validation from an artist that I really admire. Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Even more, the account was interacting a lot. Commenting, responding to their stories, saying things like, oh, my God, you truly inspire people. It's huge. But it's also fake. It's all part of the PR machine. There's no way Lisa Frank herself is like, once again, Amina.

[Patrick Hines]

Again. I'm like, lisa Frank is dming.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No way. It's all part of the PR machine. It's a. I mean, how many times do we see that now? Something goes viral and a company that has nothing to do with it just comments on it for the goodwill on social media. This is Lisa Frank just being like, hey, you know, like, Amina was probably tagging them all the time. And it's like, you got to give, got to give a little breadcrumbs.

[Patrick Hines]

I just imagine Lisa Frank sitting by her pool being an asshole, but being like, all right, they got something.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Knowing what we know now, God damn.

[Patrick Hines]

It, why can't we have anything nice?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You can't do it.

[Patrick Hines]

We just can't have anything nice.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So by the end of 2018, everything changed and all of the interactions stopped.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, nine months later, in September of 2019, almost a year after Lisa Frank stopped interacting, Amina hears about the Lisa Frank Hotel. Iconic designer Lisa Frank has teamed up with Hotels.com to create a dream suite.

[Patrick Hines]

Every inch is covered with bright rainbow colors and feature her iconic designs. I had friends DM me to congratulate me on the Lisa Frank project.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

People had assumed that I was the.

[Patrick Hines]

One who designed it because it looked so similar to my apartment, Cloudland.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, the minute this hits the Internet, all the comments are about Amina Tasselfaeri, because everyone's either congratulating Amina because surely they're behind it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Or preemptively mad, hoping that they better have been involved. So guess what? It's door number two. Get mad, everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

And also they're learning that the hotel is in the building opposite Amina's apartment, and it's managed by Amina's management company.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's so Lisa Frank Inc. And Hotels.com they have a collaboration. And it's like the Lisa Frank hotel room that is very weirdly across the street from Amina's apartment. And they have the same manager.

[Patrick Hines]

Is that just random?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

That's crazy to me.

[Patrick Hines]

That is insane.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And no one explains it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Now, my thing is, I guess if, if, if, if you're looking for it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's plausible deniability here. If you're a big corporation. Just hear me out.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I'm not defending anything. I'M just saying, paperwork wise, like, I think the plausible deniability would be. Cloudland was inspired by Lisa Frank.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So technically, when Hotels.com puts out the statement saying suggestions that our design was based on anything other than Lisa Frank and her artwork.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

There's not 100% wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And to also just, like, go down the corporate greed path, it's like, is there anything really wrong with, like, doing something in spite? I mean, I guess the right thing to do would be to say, like, hey, this, this amazing artist inspired us to do this collaboration with Hotels.com like.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Clearly it's not a nice thing to do. Yeah, clearly. Lisa Frank Inc. Stopped interacting with Amina on Instagram for a reason. Yes, clearly. It's jarring and upsetting.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But could Lisa Frank and Hotels.com argue that showbiz baby, Maybe. Should it make your stomach hurt?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, sure. It's all. It's like anytime you watch Shark Tank and any, like, small creator makes this amazing thing that they're like, once this goes to market, why wouldn't Google just copy this and then run you out of town?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it's an. It's awful, but it happens all the time.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

I am still on Tassel Ferry side. I want them to win.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

But I'm just saying now Amina's understandably upset because this is how they were making their money, their content.

[Patrick Hines]

By that time, my wife and I were really struggling financially and I was behind with rent management at my apartment.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Wanted us out. The date that they wanted us out coincided with the date that the pop up was going to actually be announced.

[Patrick Hines]

Evicted on the very day the Lisa Frank hotel room across the street goes into operation. This feels like its own documentary because.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Amina's saying that they weren't paid for their art and because of the Lisa Frank Hotel. Like, Lisa Frank stole Amina's ideas and then profited from it. And so now Amina and their wife are getting evicted.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So of course Amina tries to reach out to Lisa Frank. No luck.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is like, I don't know that I would do. I mean, the only reaching out I would do to her is like some long, nasty dm, which.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Which, I mean, it ends up kind of doing, because 2020 is here and a lot of brands are jumping on the bandwagon of the Black Lives Matter movement. That Blackout Tuesday, people were putting up those black squares. Lisa Frank did that?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Amina is like, absolutely not. And they go, I was. I couldn't tolerate it. It was intolerable for Me. So Amina posts, remember, like, on Instagram. It's like a. Like a photo of a tweet that they also wrote. Amina writes, remember when Lisa Frank totally ripped me off and stole my apartment design that was the source of my income for a hotel in my very same building? And then conspired with two other corporations involved to silence me and have me thrown out on the street? Now they're on Instagram lying. And Amina writes this long thing about, like, stop with a performative allyship. These brands will steal from black creatives.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Mistreat and discriminate against their black employees if they have any.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And show up to post hashtags as if they actually give one single fuck. And Amina calls out Lisa Frank in no uncertain terms. Now Lisa Frank responds, both the Black Lives Matter blackout post and this response have been removed from Instagram. No. Yeah, because it's embarrassing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Because Amina says, it may be the most toxic, absurd response I've ever seen. And what they do is they use the wrong pronouns because Amina corrects them.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They're like, it should be they, them. But whatever. Lisa Frank says, we were disappointed to hear of an opportunistic individual taking that.

[Patrick Hines]

Moment to focus attention on herself. Should be themself. But for their own personal benefit, by repeating their false allegations that we have stolen artwork and designs from them over the past months, we have silently forgiven them.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Over the past months, we have silently forgiven their need to deflect blame away from their own failures by perpetuating this false narrative. However, we owe it to our fans to speak out this one time. Time and address these lies.

[Patrick Hines]

It feels like Elizabeth Finch wrote that.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, they could have just been the nice, cool brand. They just did this to Glamour Dolls.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah. With Glamour Dolls.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's like, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. And I love that Amina was just like, absolutely not. Not on my watch. Like, how fudgeing. Dare you? But Lisa Frank doubled down and like.

[Patrick Hines]

Just the phone call when, like, the documentary called, I was like, would you like to speak about your experience? The best day of their Life.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it's 2020. Lisa Frank has left Glamour Dolls and Amina Tassel Ferry in their wake.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Lisa FR Morphe, which is an influencer makeup brand. I'd never. I had never heard of it, but apparently.

[Patrick Hines]

Let me just.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

A big deal.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. This was the thing that made me. I mean, I spent the last seven years of my life going over contracts. So, like, this gave me a headache that I'll have for the rest of my life. In the contract with Lisa Frank that Glamour Dolls had, the Glamour Dolls had stated that Lisa Frank would own any designs made during the collaboration. That means any designs that Glamour Dolls paid for and created and made for their makeup products would be owned by Lisa Frank. So if that collaboration fell apart like it did, Lisa Frank could just easily take those designs, go to any other makeup brand, and be like, we've got this pre made to go like the.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Awesome Trapper Keeper eyeshadow palette. They stole it.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's exactly what happened. The Glamour dolls, the worst thing they did here was not have, like, a better contract. This. This contract was awful.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's bad.

[Patrick Hines]

It looks predatory. It looks like it was made by Lisa Frank with the intention of screwing them over with, like, only giving that they could run it out, get another year for another contract, and then change it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And having the contract be such that they were forced to pay her hundreds of thousands of dollars when she had no reason to give them any product.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

They were like, did she have to do anything or was she just sitting back and collecting checks?

[Patrick Hines]

And because she owned the designs, I know what would have happened is that if this collaboration had worked out and they wanted to make more of that product, Glamour Dolls would then have to have licensed those images back from Lisa. It would have just been more and more expensive. More money for Lisa Frank.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Right. So Jessica and Peter Glamour Dolls file a lawsuit against Lisa Frank. It stresses me out to think how much we paid her. How much were we just going to keep going? Like, almost $800,000. And there was nothing to show for it. And they had nothing to show for.

[Patrick Hines]

It except for the loss of their lives.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And they're get.

[Patrick Hines]

And.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

And Lisa Frank is talking shit about Jessica and Peter. Essentially, yes. And DMs Lisa Frank Inc. Files a counterclaim and they just. This is what Lisa Frank does with her husband, who's a piece of shit also. I'm just saying, like, this endless picking and back and forth. Like, Lisa Frank would say they never met deadlines. And then Glamour Dolls would be like, well, Lisa Frank wouldn't let us because she hated everything.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We couldn't meet a deadline because she never approved anything.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

So it just goes on and on and on and on. And we get this onscreen text that says, In September of 2024, a judge dismissed seven of glamour dolls counts against Lisa Frank Inc. And some of its claims for breach of contract and defamation. And Glamour Dolls claims that Lisa Frank Inc. Breached the contract by failing to provide artwork for one of the products and defamed Glamour Dolls by saying it had completely failed to live up to our agreement. And so. Just a mess.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Like, it's just we're going back and.

[Patrick Hines]

Forth, and it's like, Lisa Frank's got all the money. Glamour Dolls doesn't have any money to. To actually pursue this lawsuit.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No. And since 2019, Lisa Frank has been doing a ton of collaborations. Like that 90s nostalgia vibe that Glamour Dolls wanted to do. Like, Lisa Frank just did it anyway and just left them, like, burning ashes.

[Patrick Hines]

I just. Oh, my God. Like, it just doesn't make any sense to me. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's just someone who wants to fight and be shitty. And so at the end. At the end of every episode, we've gotten the same statement from Lisa Frank. So I've saved it to the end, so it says. In response to producers questions, Lisa Frank shared the following statement. I have loved art and have been an artist ever since childhood. Lisa Frank, Inc. Is the result of that passion. I'm incredibly grateful for the amazing artists and team members who helped bring my vision to life. I'm so excited about the future as the next generation takes the helm. Stay tuned. The best is yet to come. Exclamation point. So she's just like, is it a genius move or is it. Or is it just like, oh, you're a sociopath?

[Patrick Hines]

And the question is, does this documentary just raise her profile? You know, it's like, all publicity is good publicity.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I mean, if you have Lisa Frank stuff, you already bought it. But, like, yeah, if I ever walked, if I ever saw something.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Frank.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I wouldn't be able to buy it.

[Patrick Hines]

I was thinking today, like, if Daisy and I were at the store and there was, like, Lisa Frank stickers, we. We would. No way would we buy it.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

No way. Yeah. Sandy lion for life. They're also shitty. Who knows? Like, coming soon. Coming next week, the Expose documentary about Sandy Lion. Of course. I'm waiting for it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, girl. We did two episodes of the Glitter and whatever. Lisa Frank. Glitter and greed. Oh, fam. I'm back out on tour, so come and see me. I just announced a bunch of new cities, and they're all on the website. It's PatrickTours.com. we're having really a great time. The first couple of shows have been really so, so, so much fun. People are coming and making friends, which is the point of the whole thing. Come and see me and I can't wait to meet you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Yeah, go have fun.

[Patrick Hines]

Thanks. What are we doing next?

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Girl, we are doing worst roommate ever. That's back season two, episode two. It's called Housemate from Hell.

[Patrick Hines]

Wow.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

It's a shitty. It's a horrible story. That series is so good, but. Oh, man, it really.

[Patrick Hines]

Like when it first came out, I thought the. The title was a little bit like, worst roommate Ever. Worst ex ever. Like, seems kind of dumb. No, these are really well made.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Every episode you're like, they are the worst roommate ever. And everyone is worse than the last. It's like, how do these people, like, do this? And we can't even have like glittery stickers.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know. We just did a doc, a four part documentary on stickers.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's what happens.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

You know what? Glitter stickers for life. Just as long as they're not Lisa, Frank and get those oilies.

[Patrick Hines]

Get the oilies. All right. We love you.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

We love you.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye Bye.

[Jillian Benzavalli]

Female executive. Has an executive home, exquisitely furnished to share. Three bedrooms, two baths, lush backyard and French door. Private entrance overlooking the pool. I've never worked a roommate case myself where it ended so tragically. Stay the away from me, you bastard. The thing that sticks out the most to me in this investigation is that she recorded her murder. Get out of here. Behind me.