448: The Murder of Hadas Winnick (from "I'm Related to a Killer")

Summary

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True Crime Obsessed – Episode 448: "The Murder of Hadass Winnick" (from "I'm Related to a Killer")

Air date: August 21, 2025
Hosts: Patrick Hines & Jillian Pensavalle

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Overview

This gripping, non-comedic bonus episode of True Crime Obsessed launches the new series "I'm Related to a Killer," exploring true crime stories through the voices of murderers’ family members. This opening episode centers around the horrifying case of Jesse Winnick, who murdered his mother, Hadass Winnick, as recounted by his sister, Amy. The hosts approach the brutal case with gravity, empathy, and piercing perspective, emphasizing the systematic failures that left Amy and her mother helpless for years.

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Main Discussion & Key Insights

1. Series Introduction and Case Overview

• The new series uniquely centers on stories told by relatives of murderers, providing a rarely heard perspective (01:13).
• The episode covers Jesse Winnick's vicious murder of his mother, Hadass, and the subsequent trauma faced by Amy, his sister (01:36).

2. The Immediate Aftermath and Amy’s Perspective

• Amy describes the night of the murder: working a shift, receiving frantic calls from her mother and brother, and then Jesse telling her flatly on the phone:

  "I just killed mom. Don’t come home." (05:09)

• Amy’s disbelief and shock, given Jesse’s long history of threats, triggers the frantic and apologetic 911 call (05:12-05:27).
• 22-year-old Amy arrives to find her mother murdered, marking the obliteration of her family as she knew it.

3. Family History and Cycles of Abuse

• Explores Hadass and Sherman Winnick’s marriage, Sherman's alcoholism and abuse, and their eventual separation (10:55, 11:09).
• Amy reveals, "By the time I was conceived, they were separated. So I never lived with my father. I never saw their marriage in person." (09:03)
• Family therapist Angela Mutonda describes every family as a "mini subculture," influencing how trauma and abuse are internalized (09:44).

4. Jesse’s Escalating Violence & Abuse

• Jesse’s abusive, controlling, and violent behavior began at an early age, escalating at home and at school, leading to his expulsion (15:53).
• Amy describes her brother:

  "The only times I ever can remember my brother being kind or loving or warm or caring were times when he wanted something from me." (15:10)

• He physically abused both Amy and Hadass, severely worsening after their mother’s injury left her wheelchair-bound (19:52-20:05).
• At 15, Jesse begins sexually abusing Amy, coercing her in deeply traumatizing ways (21:16):

  "He blackmailed me into inserting objects inside of myself in front of him. ... That had lasting effect on me." (21:16)

5. Lack of Institutional Help and Systemic Failure

• The hosts emphasize how almost no support was available for Amy’s family, highlighting overwhelming systemic failures (16:12-16:45).
• Police responses were limited to arresting Jesse for a night and then returning him home; mental healthcare failed to engage with him productively (25:04).

  "My mom called the police many times... They would arrest, they would detain him for a few hours, maybe a night, and then they would return him back home. That would happen for years." (25:04)

• Family bonds and cycles of violence kept Hadass attempting to fix and protect her son, even as his threats grew more explicit (29:04).

6. The Murder: Events and Aftermath

• On September 25, 2007, after escalating tension and trivial argument, Jesse stabbed Hadass to death in the kitchen (35:16, 37:54).
• Amy’s devastating discovery:

  "I initially saw at first was her hand outstretched and the phone just outside of her reach. And then I saw that the knife that Jesse had used to kill her was still in her neck." (35:43)

• Jesse calmly showered, changed clothes, stole his mother's car, met a friend, and attempted to flee – caught just miles away hours later (36:42).

7. Legal Proceedings and Continued Violence

• Jesse’s trial and sentencing were delayed for years as he manipulated the legal process by going off his medication, firing lawyers, and rendering himself unfit to stand trial (39:43).

  "He would start taking medication for one of his mental illnesses and then abruptly go off the medication right before the trial was supposed to start. Then he could be deemed mentally unfit to stand trial and the whole thing would be delayed again." (39:43)

• Eventually pleads no contest and is sentenced to 15 years to life, but his violence continues in prison, attacking both inmates and officers (44:56).

8. Amy’s Ongoing Trauma and Systemic Brokenness

• Jesse earns a parole hearing after only nine years. Amy attends and is threatened by her brother in front of the parole board, including him reciting her address and making throat-slitting gestures (47:07, 49:02):

  "He then recited a recent address of mine and said he could have friends visit me and take care of me and my children." (49:02)

• Prison officials, however, refuse to charge Jesse for these threats, citing "it's not a big enough threat" (50:07).
• Another plot is uncovered through a letter Jesse sends to another inmate, attempting to frame Amy and threaten her further, but DA Matt Allen prosecutes and Jesse receives an additional 36 years (51:04–52:16).

9. Amy’s Resilience and Advocacy

• Amy publicly testifies about her abuse, loss, and ongoing fear for the first time, while Jesse attempts to talk over her in court (52:38, 53:09):

  "She's not even safe from him when he's in prison. ... If he wants her dead, he can probably make that happen." (53:02–53:04)

• Amy chooses not to be consumed by hate, instead vowing to fight for better victim advocacy and systemic change (54:32–54:39):

  "I just want to change the way systems receive victims." (54:39)

• The episode ends with Amy reflecting on her love for her mother and the enduring impact of her loss (54:56):

  "I haven't heard her voice for 17 years. What a joyous person she was." (55:10)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Amy's Loss:

  "Her whole family is gone." — Patrick (36:11)

• Cycle of Abuse:

  "That is a cycle that I would see eventually carry over into my brother and my mom's relationship." — Amy (11:15)

• Systemic Failure:

  "There is such little help for families dealing with this." — Patrick (16:12)

• Jesse’s Violence in Prison:

  "I've stabbed over 90 people since getting here." — Jesse (47:07)

• Amy’s Determination:

  "I don't hate him. I'm angry. Like, I'll never forgive him. She's angry at her brother. She's angry at the system." — Jillian (54:10)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:13 – Series introduction; premise of "I'm Related to a Killer"
• 04:28–05:09 – Amy receives call from Jesse admitting to murder
• 11:09–11:26 – Details on the abuse from their father carrying over into Jesse and Hadass’s relationship
• 15:10 – Amy describes her brother’s manipulative "kindness"
• 19:52 – Hadass's injury and heightening of Jesse's abuse
• 21:16 – Amy describes being sexually abused by her brother
• 25:04–25:23 – Police repeatedly return Jesse home, highlighting systemic helplessness
• 35:43–36:01 – Amy’s account of discovering her mother’s body
• 39:43 – Jesse’s courtroom manipulation and delay tactics
• 49:02 – Jesse threatens Amy during parole hearing, listing her address
• 51:04–52:16 – DA Matt Allen charges Jesse with further crimes after his death threats
• 54:39 – Amy’s mission to change how the system treats victims
• 55:10 – Amy remembers her mother’s joy and laments her absence

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Themes and Tone

The episode maintains a somber, respectful, and empathetic tone while occasionally using the hosts’ signature informality for relief. By centering Amy’s firsthand perspective, the show avoids sensationalism and highlights the long-term consequences of family violence, the inadequacy of mental health and justice systems, and the resilience of survivors seeking change.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a comprehensive, structured understanding of this episode’s content and emotional impact.

Transcript

[A]

Haven't said this in a minute, but this one's not a comedy.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Hi. Jillian Bezavoli.

[B]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Fam.

[A]

Join the Facebook group. Join the disky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Lots of ways to connect with us outside of just listening to our episodes.

[B]

We're having a lot of fun on Discord.

[A]

Tell me everything I've been in exactly one time.

[B]

One time. It's fun. If you're into it, great. We have a bunch of channels for a bunch of stuff. So it's like, I don't know, we're just having a good time over there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I'll plug the Facebook group. It's really fun over there too.

[B]

It's also very fun over there too. We're doing new boot Goofin in the group now that I told you about last night. It's the night Reno911. Reference New Boot goofin. So now like the new boot goofin people are coming.

[A]

Oh, my God. Welcome, everybody. Welcome to Goofin people. Yeah, girl. What are we talking about today? I'm drinking a seltzer water. I'm very excited.

[B]

Oh, great. Are you going to get the burps, do you think?

[A]

I might, but I'll be cool about it.

[B]

I love seltzer. What is that orange seltzer like? Yes. On a 90 degree day in New York City.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Flawless.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So welcome to our bonus episode of this month or whatever. I don't know what I'm saying.

[A]

Welcome to your first day of recording.

[B]

This is my first day on Earth.

[A]

Yeah, welcome, welcome.

[B]

First day on earth. Shitty. But, you know, we'll do was better.

[A]

A little while ago, you know.

[B]

So this is our 10th bonus episode. This is a new series that we're, I mean, debuting, for lack of a better term. The series is called I'm Related to a Killer. A lot of people requested this series specifically because the stories are being told from the relatives of the person who did this horrifying thing. So it's a point of view that we don't really get that often.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

So the listeners want to hear about it. So we're doing the first episode of the.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It covers the case of the killer, Jesse Winick. Did he say how he did it?

[B]

I'm hoping to God he was right.

[D]

Any murder is a horrible tragedy. But to murder your own mother I think reflects a particularly callous and depraved individual.

[E]

He took pleasure in seeing pain in other people, even his own mom and his sister.

[D]

Jesse Winnick's a Bad man. He's deeply disturbed. There is nothing that the state of California can do. Whether in prison or on the street.

[F]

His actions have never endingly affected my life. The parole process, the threat, the fear.

[E]

I think that Jesse is an evil, evil person.

[F]

To see my mom lying in a pool of blood in her favorite room in the house, killed by my brother, shook me to my core. I realized he was not my brother. He was a monster.

[A]

We open in Los Angeles. We meet Deputy District Attorney Matt Allen. And he was saying, like, this is told a little bit out of order. The first story we get is Matt, the DA talking about the first time he heard about Jesse. Jesse was already in prison having been convicted of the murder that we're about to tell you about. But like in prison, he is still a fudgeing monster.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't really love how this started because I have in my notes, I was like, hi, the victim's name is Hadassah Winnick. And it takes them way too long to say it, so we're going to say it at the top. But it's one of those things where it's like, we'll get back to this at the end. We'll. We'll get back to the beginning at the end.

[A]

Basically just opens with this monster in pr stabbing a corrections officer and trying to kill him.

[B]

So after this murder, Right, he's still incredibly dangerous and violent.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're going to learn, like, this kid is an unbelievably sick person. This is really a tough one. I guess we should say this is probably not one for the kids. So if you're listening in the car, maybe maybe, you know, switch over to the Daily or something.

[B]

Oh, I don't know about that.

[A]

No. You know what the Daily's worst. Oh, God.

[B]

So we meet Jane Doe. She's a crime reporter. She's in Shadow.

[E]

I was a journalist for several years and I covered crime as one of my beats. With someone as volatile and unpredictable and cold blooded as he seems to be. I would rather just not have that connection like with my name or with my face.

[A]

She doesn't want him to know what she looks like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Presumably he'll know her name. I'm assuming she has a byline in whatever she's been reporting in or whatever.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

But does not want him to know what she. That's how fucking. I don't. We've only seen this a handful of times.

[B]

Yeah. So Amy is here, and Amy is the killer's sister. And the killer murdered their mother and she Just explains like, it, of course, haunts her every single day. And she is here to walk us through this horrifying story of what happened, but also all of the awful things that led up to it. Cause she's here also to tell us about her childhood.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So Amy is describing the night of the murder. And she says she was 22 when her brother killed her mother. She just finished her shift at work. Her brother Jesse was 25. We're gonna learn later at work that night, she had gotten a bunch of calls from her mom and from her brother. Her mom and her brother. You know, the brother was always awful to the mother, and the mother was always looking for Amy to be around as sort of like a second and like a Protector.

[B]

And Amy's 22 years old now, but we'll learn, even as a child, she had to play this role, which is not healthy or fair to Amy at all.

[A]

Absolutely not. And so she's in the car, and she, having gotten all these calls from her family, she calls home and she gets her brother. And the brother just says in a deadpan voice, I just killed mom.

[B]

Like, and don't go home.

[A]

And don't.

[B]

Don't come home. So she's like, what?

[A]

But the thing is about this is that she doesn't know if this is real or not, because we're gonna learn. He's been threatening to kill the mom for years and years. And she calls 91 1, and we hear the 911 call, and she's at once frantic and apologizing in case this isn't real.

[B]

Yeah. So she's still on her way home.

[A]

And she's never have to apologize to 911. Just call them, like, they want to help.

[B]

In Amy's position, please, like, her gut is telling her this is real. Call the police. But she, like, through tears, she's like, if this is not real, I'm sorry, but I think so. Can you please help?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So we learn about Hadass and Sherman Winnick. They were childhood sweethearts. Amy says that her mom was, quote, every bit an Aquarius.

[A]

I gotta say, it takes a little too long to say that the dad's a total piece of fucking shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This dad is a fucking absent motherfucker. I hate this guy.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I really am upset about this because I want to talk about Hadassah, of course, but, like, the dad's going to vanish from the picture, abandoning the mother and the daughter with this monster and takes no responsibility for this kid who does these horrendous things. I hate this guy here.

[B]

I thought you were going to be like, what does it mean to be an Aquarius? And I was going to be like, well, it's an air sign. Very intellectual, creative, innovative, independent.

[A]

What'd she say? Like, she said this really cute thing.

[F]

Where she said she was a creative kid. She was full of life, and she remembers kind of just running free as a kiddo, collecting frogs in her pockets and having a sweet childhood.

[A]

She collected frogs in her pockets?

[B]

I thought that was so cute.

[A]

I didn't know if that was a metaphor, if that was real.

[B]

No, I think she was just like a little girl who liked hanging out with frogs. I love that.

[A]

Oh, that's so great. Frogs are great.

[B]

I love frogs.

[A]

People love. My mother loves frogs.

[B]

I have a really cool, like, experience that happened, which is, wait, did a.

[A]

Frog talk to you?

[B]

Sort of.

[A]

Was it a prince that got turned into a frog?

[B]

It's exactly what happened.

[A]

What?

[B]

No. But I was in a pool, and there was a frog in the water in the pool and just, like, hanging out. And I put my hand under and, like, the frog was in my hand, but I felt the frog jump off my head. And the legs were so strong.

[A]

You were like a little lily pad.

[B]

I was like, my hand was the lily pad and, like, it jumped, but, like, I felt. Felt the strength of the jump. I talked about it for months.

[A]

In France, they eat the shit out of those legs.

[B]

That. But it was. I was like, oh. Like, it was a weird experience.

[A]

And the thing that weird about frogs, too, is that the really pretty ones are poisonous. Isn't that wild? There's, like, poisonous frogs out there. They don't mean to be. I'm sure it's not. They don't want to be.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They were born that way.

[B]

You can't help it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Travel down the road.

[A]

Back again, girl. Helix is back. Look, I say this all the time. I work with this organization. I give them my apartment for the weekend. And the one thing everybody comes out talking about is how comfy my mattress is.

[B]

Yeah, I used to be a really bad sleeper. I was tossing and turning all the time. And so Helix. I have the midnight locks from Helix. I've had it for years. And there was absolutely a noticeable difference. Like, almost immediately, I was like, oh, wow. This is what it feels like to be rested. Cool.

[A]

I remember when we got our Helix, I was like, this is what it's like to sleep all the way through the night. Like, no. I remember I used to wake up because the mattress was lumpy or it would sort of cave in in the middle. And Steve and I were like, on top of each other in our king size bed. Not with Helix. Sleeping all through the night, every night.

[B]

I love it. And it can help with, like, it depending on, you know, you have to, like, get the mattress. That would work best for you. But, like, it can help with snoring, it can help with back pain. Sleeping through the night, like we were saying, or sleeping too hot, which was another issue of mine.

[A]

Bottom line, we love Helix. Everybody loves Helix. We even got a twin mattress for Daisy. She loves her Helix.

[B]

Cute.

[A]

I know. So, fam, you gotta get it on the helix. Go to helix sleep.com tco for 27% off site wide.

[B]

Yeah, this is all about their Labor Day sale. So that's. That's helixsleep.com TCO for 27% off site wide. And make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you helixsleep.com tco so the parents got married in January of 1981. Almost a year to the day later, the killer was born.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But Amy says something that was like. I was like, whoa.

[F]

By the time I was conceived, they were separated. So I never lived with my father. I never saw their marriage in person.

[B]

I never saw their marriage in person. I was like, wow, what a clear and interesting way to say that.

[A]

I have a friend who's like that who, like, doesn't remember. Like, the parents got divorced when he was, like, 2 and doesn't remember. They don't remember the parents ever being together.

[B]

Yeah. It was just such a perfect way to say it because I was like, oh, I know exactly what you mean.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

By that small sentence.

[A]

And Amy was born December 4, 1984, making her three years younger than her brother. And there's this amazing woman here, her name is Angela Mutonda and she's a family psychotherapist. And she says when you're born into a family, that family is its own subculture.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, I never thought of it that way, but I know. And that's exactly right.

[A]

But you don't even need to be like, you and Mike are a subculture. You know what I mean? It's like.

[B]

And Fiona.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you create your own universe within your family. Right. For better or for worse. And I was really struck by that, just thinking about my own family.

[B]

There's been like a trend on TikTok that's like, what is something that you thought was totally normal and then you went to someone's house and they didn't do it. And you realize that your family was the only one who did it.

[A]

What was this? What's yours?

[B]

Usually the answers are horrible. Oh, my God. Oh, no. I don't know. Like, the parents were exceptionally mean to the their kids. It's like, oh, I didn't know you could eat after 9 o'. Clock. Or I. You know, things that make you go like, oh, God.

[A]

But what would yours be like? For example, I didn't know that people had dads, so what's yours?

[B]

Sure. I didn't know that people didn't have dad.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

I had to throw it. I had to throw.

[A]

I want a savage across her face. You give me that savage.

[B]

I had to throw it right back. Oh, that's good.

[A]

That's good, that's good.

[B]

Well, like, anything with, like, sibling life was very foreign to me, I guess so that, you know, like, why, like, why would you beat the hell out of this other person in the house? Like, why are you beating them up? That's so strange to me. That's not how we do things here.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I would be an animal abuser if.

[C]

That was the case.

[A]

Oh, God. Well, anyway, we learn that, like, the dad was just awful to the mom. He was an alcoholic from the age of 16. He cheated on Hadass all through the marriage. And Amy says, I think my mom.

[F]

From what I read in her diary, was in an abusive relationship.

[B]

With him.

[F]

Both physically, emotionally, and mentally. So that is a cycle that I would see eventually carry over into my brother and my mom's relationship.

[A]

And that's a cycle that she would see repeated in her brother and her.

[B]

Mother'S relationship and with Amy herself, because she says that she was the youngest person in the house, but she was kind of taking care of everybody.

[A]

And it's interesting because a lot of some of this is told through photos, which I think is effective. And there's this one photo right now that we're seeing where she says it's hard for her to find a photo of her and her brother where she looks happy and he's not controlling her in some way.

[B]

I was like, whoa.

[A]

I know. And that's such an astute. That's like somebody who's done the work in therapy, right?

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

And like. And. But you see this picture, and it's like he's. She's looking at the camera, not really smiling, and he's holding her, but, like, squeezing her, and she's like a baby.

[B]

She's Uncomfortable.

[A]

She's like, you know, nine months old or something. And she says, like, even in this photo, he's manhandling it.

[B]

Yeah. So it's 1989. Hadass is now a single mom.

[A]

Series wrap on the piece of shit dad.

[B]

Yeah, bye.

[A]

Piece of shit dads with their monster children who just abandoned the family and, like, leave the people to fend for themselves. Are you fucking kidding me?

[B]

Yeah, no. That sucks. Yeah, sorry, you're not going to have that. But they settle down in Calabasas.

[E]

Calabasas is a very wealthy area that, although it is in Los Angeles county, it's nothing like la, really. There is certainly very, very little violent crime. It's a lot of open space and big houses. The Kardashians live there.

[B]

Must we mention the fucking Kardashians? Does anyone else. Does anyone else live in Calabasas, for God's sake?

[A]

Now, I like that because Jane Doe the journalist is just saying everyone is like, Calabasas is in la, but it's nothing like la.

[B]

Yeah, it's not really la. And the Kardashians live here. Lots of celebrities live. We need. I'm gonna Google. Yeah, someone else. Any other famous person who lives in Calabasas.

[A]

Doesn't Paris live in Calabasas? Maybe I'm guessing it from the Bling Ring because, like, they also broke into her house.

[B]

Right? Because we got got another 15 minutes about Calabasas in the Bling Ring.

[A]

Next time. Calabasas is in the Valley, which. Which I thought they didn't like, but they do like Calabasas.

[B]

Keep track.

[A]

California. What's going on out there?

[B]

All I know is that I've made it very clear that I don't discuss the Kardashians. And yet.

[A]

And here we are.

[B]

They're getting thrown in my face on a regular basis.

[A]

I didn't know that you don't discuss the Kardashians ever.

[B]

I try not to.

[A]

Oh, because of Taylor?

[B]

I'd love. No. I mean, even pre Taylor, I was.

[A]

Never like, no, me either. I didn't know that there was. I didn't know if it was off.

[B]

Limit, but it's still the connection. It's like, I don't want to talk about oj. I don't want to talk about the Kardashians. They are connected. Like, I'm done. Totally.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Okay, great. But, like, I really do need to make a sojourn to Calabasas just to see what it's all about.

[B]

I'm sure it's a bunch of houses.

[A]

And roads like people who live in Calabasas. Is it more than that? Tell me, is your Starbucks amazing?

[B]

I'm not saying this as shade, but, like, it sounds neighborhood.

[A]

I know.

[B]

It sounds like you're going to be, like, a bunch. Oh, there's a car in the driveway, and there's a house.

[A]

They do, like, go to pains to say there's, like, space. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, there's, like, lots of open space, lots of big houses. Very, very little violent crime.

[A]

But I'm glad that they get to live there. She's a teacher. I can't imagine she makes very much money, but they get to live in Calabasas. That's nice.

[B]

Yeah. Because, yeah, we learned that Hadassah was a high school teacher. Everyone loved her.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But the kids are going through a lot, like Amy and her brother. The divorce, the move, the abuse that's going on at home. There's just, like, a lot happening.

[A]

And this is where Amy starts to say, like, this is so. She's eight and he's nine. And this is where it's at this age that she remembers the abuse starting.

[B]

Yeah, like, so from, like, eight or nine. He was an abusive bully. Like, an abusive bully, full stop. So she says she never felt safe or protected by her older brother.

[A]

Right. And Angela, the psychotherapist, is saying, like, that's what younger siblings want from their older siblings. And I was like, oh, sorry, Becca. Sorry. You know what I mean? Like, you know, siblings also just fight. But this is a whole different level.

[B]

Of that, because she says, the only.

[F]

Times I ever can remember my brother being kind or loving or warm or caring were times when he wanted something from me. I don't think he was ever nurturing or protective in nature without there being an ulterior motive.

[B]

It was transactional. It was because he wanted something from her.

[A]

Can I tell you the best example of an older sibling being nice to a younger sibling that I have seen is Daisy and her older sister.

[B]

Oh, that's cute.

[A]

Because they don't live together. You know, they were adopted by different families.

[B]

There's space.

[A]

There's space. There's lots of space. And the older sister is, like, so sweet. And Daisy's like, the annoying little sister and whatever. And I just want to say, like, the older sister, if you ever hear this, I love you. You're so wonderful, so sweet and so patient. It's so nice.

[B]

Thank you for your patience.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So the brother, the killer, was kicked out of school for his violent behavior. And this violent, abusive, bullying behavior was Happening at school and at home. So now he's kicked out of school and now he's home all the time. And Amy can't catch a break and neither can her mother because Amy says that by 12 years old he was, quote, explosively angry and violently abusive as a 12 year old.

[A]

And I can see people who haven't lived through this. Now I know our listeners are not like this. I know you are all very empathetic people. But like, I can see being like, well, why don't you. You gotta get rid of them or what can. Like there is such little help for families dealing with this.

[B]

Sure. That also seems to say we'll just get rid of them seems so callous.

[A]

I know. And I don't mean like anybody is thinking get rid of them, but there's gotta be like the police should come. The police. And as he gets older and it gets worse, like there is just there's such little help for these families. I feel for Amy and her mom in this story because there's no help for them. No one's coming to help them.

[B]

Right. And on top of that, there's the family dynamics. There's a cycle of abuse. There's that too, that everyone is sort of working towards and they don't really know that they're going through that. You know, the mom isn't saying, like, well, here's that cycle of abuse again. Like that's coming after the fact from Amy. So there are all of these interpersonal dynamics at play as well.

[A]

And speaking of the dynamics, we get another picture that Amy is showing us and she calls this picture beautifully ironic. The mom is between Jesse and Amy.

[F]

You can see me hugging and loving on mom, and mom adoring and staring at Jesse. And Jesse having the smuggest look on his face ever, with no regard for anybody else in the photo.

[A]

And then he's looking directly at the camera with no regard for anybody else.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Right. And Amy says, like when she said explosively angry and violently abusive for a 12 year old, but like name calling, but it would be, it would be very mean and very personal and very pointed. Like he'd find he'd make fun of your looks, whatever you were insecure about Y very much that. And so he was also becoming destructive to the house. So he would like damage the walls or light fires in the bathtub and then blame all of this on Amy.

[A]

Starting the way that you can see them. And I wanted to point out here too that the Jane Doe, the journalist says you could tell that Hadass, the mom, it was very hard for her to believe that her son was becoming this abusive. Of course, parents of kids going through this try so fucking hard. They want to save their kids. They want to believe it's something that they did that they can fix. Of course, you know, and it's, it's, it's so heartbreaking thinking that these, these kids are oftentimes just broken.

[B]

Right. Travel down the road.

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[B]

Oh, so good. So Hadassah injures herself. She's at school. She's a teacher. Right. So she tripped at school and really, really injured her ankle. Following a string of unsuccessful operations, she used a wheelchair for several years.

[F]

The abuse at Jesse's hands did not lessen. In fact, it worsened. Jesse sensed a weakness, and that is when he became physically abusive to my mom.

[B]

And now Amy's brother jumps on this weakness.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he becomes even more violent and abusive toward his mother.

[A]

Right. And like we're hearing scenes being described, described of the mom, like standing up out of the wheelchair, trying to practice walking. He's knocking her over.

[B]

It's horrifying. And so like, Amy again, as the youngest kid, is trying to like, step up and take care of her mother, which again, is not fair or healthy for Amy. But also she's feeling unsafe also she wants to protect her mom. Also that, like, there's a lot.

[A]

And we learned that, like he's now of age and he's got. I got burpee. I'm so sorry, everybody. I got burpee. I won't do it again.

[B]

At least you spit the gum out. I was worried that.

[A]

Oh, no. Can you imagine? You should. You would have gotten it.

[B]

I would have been like, you need to get rid of the gum.

[A]

Oh my God. I would never in a million years.

[B]

Sweetie, you're wasting your gum.

[A]

Oh my. I interviewed this when I made my theater podcast. I interviewed this one Tony Award winning actress who chewed bread the entire time.

[B]

Oh, I had a gump chewer on.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Very early on in that stars. Yeah. But anyway, had the bread.

[A]

Oh, come on. I know, I know. Ate bread. We met at Amy's Bread and went back to her apartment and she just ate the bread the entire.

[B]

I never would have guessed that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So now the killer is 15 years old and he is starting to sexually abuse Amy. And I'm going to say this as. As quickly as I can.

[F]

He blackmailed me into inserting objects inside of myself in front of him. To go through my first sexual experiences in front of my brother and to be objectified in that sense had lasting effect on me.

[B]

She says my first sexual experiences were in front of my brother. It is absolutely horrifying and it has.

[A]

Had lasting effects on her to this day.

[B]

Yeah. And it's another like fucked up way to control and manipulate and just abuse and bully. I mean, it's just, it's. But the point is it's getting violent and now it's. She's hurting the people in the house.

[A]

It's really a house of horrors. You know what I mean? It really.

[B]

15 and he's 15 and it's been happening.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Since at least he's eight years old.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

At least.

[A]

Right. And like we don't know of anything traumatic thing in his. Like it just seems like he was just born like this.

[B]

I wonder if something not like this matters at all. But I wonder what he was like when he was younger. Maybe the dad was like, I'm not putting up with this.

[A]

Right. And that's what I'm saying.

[B]

Maybe that was too hard.

[A]

Maybe the dad just abandoned the family, you know? And we don't know.

[B]

I don't know. I'm speculating. I don't mean to.

[A]

And we don't know that the dad. We don't know. But, like, it just seems like the dad is not present at all.

[B]

Yeah. Because it just seems like this is someone who really was born evil. So I just wonder.

[A]

And it's like, it's all. Of course, it's always the mother that sticks around and is the one that stays and handles the tragedy.

[B]

Right. So at 15, the killer. Amy describes it as like, he's. His mental health is suffering, so he's acting out on suicidal thoughts. He's acting out at school. He's having what they call episodes. And he's finally sent for treatment at a facility where he's diagnosed with bipolar disorder, ocd, Tourette syndrome and adhd.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And in therapy, either he was manipulative or he would just flat out refuse to cooperate, or he'd be abusive to the therapist. Like, he was just not.

[A]

And the therapist just refused to see him.

[B]

Right. So now we have. Okay, we have all of these. Diagnose he's not being treated, and now he's home and now continuing the abuse. Cause he was seemingly what we're told. It sounds like he's sort of, like, unable to be treated.

[A]

And the thing that, like, we don't really talk about in this. There are things that can be done, but you have to know the paperwork. You gotta be diligent. You have to. It is so much work to get help for these kids. And then does it take. Do they run away? Like, you know what I mean?

[B]

And I don't mean to forgive the comparison, I guess, and I don't mean it this way, but once I say it, maybe you'll get how I mean it. Sometimes those facilities are not helpful or not safe or it feels a little bit like how prison. You're like, you know, we're supposed to be rehabilitating people. Right. Like, does it. Because sometimes if you don't do your work, like, I. I know my parents went through this when they were finding, like, a residential facility for my grandmother. They went through a lot. Because sometimes you walk into these places and you're like, I can't leave my person here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Navigating that system is its own more than full time job and finding, finding ways to get it paid for and then get like it is. When you are dealing with a person like this, it is so there's just nobody knows what to do.

[B]

No one knows what to do. And sometimes, like what I was saying before, like, sometimes these facilities, there are wonderful ones, but sometimes there are places where it just sort of becomes like a place to put them and not help and treat because clear. It's so clear to me as we continue on that we as a society are not equipped to handle people who are born evil.

[A]

Right? Yes.

[B]

It becomes clearer every week and it's becoming clearer in this episode specifically because at one point, point the killer says to Amy, just let me kill our mother and run off to Mexico. Like he, it's all he wants to do. And now he's saying it and it's.

[A]

Like when you think about the way the mother was treating him, she's just taking care of him, you know what I mean? They're not living in the same reality. Whatever is making him want to kill.

[B]

That ship has sailed.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And so like again, in the we are not equipped folder, they say, my.

[F]

Mom called the police many times. Their understanding of what to do with Jesse was very limited. They would arrest, they would detain him for a few hours, maybe a night, and then they would return him back home. That would happen for years.

[B]

The solution, air quotes, is like, well, we'll just put him in the tank for overnight, I guess and like cool off, call us on Monday.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or whatever. And it's like again, we're not equipped exactly as a society. What do you do if someone is literally saying all I want to do is kill our mother and then I'll run off to Mexico and get away with it. Like, can you just let me do what I want to do?

[A]

And then Amy tells us this absolutely horrifying story about. She said she was 16 or 17, standing in the kitchen making a meal and she feels this super violent kick from behind her between her legs. And she said she was in immense pain, doubles over, she asks him why he did it. And he says, I just wanted to see if it hurt girls to be kicked there. And then she says it was the most intense pain she ever felt in her life. And, and, and, and the thing that really stood out, she said, I remember, remember feeling like I had been sexually assaulted but not having the words for it at that time in my life.

[B]

Oh sure.

[A]

And that to me, I don't know, that's the moment where I'd be Like, get out.

[C]

Get out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? I don't know. I mean, I'm just speaking emotionally off the cuff. Of course.

[B]

It's very easy, safe in our little booth, you know, But, Right, we talked.

[A]

About this off mic. Like, he's incredibly violent and dangerous. So you kick him out. That makes him more dangerous.

[B]

Right. And also, everyone's line is different. Like, someone could be. Be listening to this and hearing you come home and there's, like, knife marks all over the wall and being like, that's someone's life. Like, someone else could be listening to this and being like, girl, I would have said, get out.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you never know.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

So the killer turns 20. He joins the army. A few weeks later, he calls home saying that he is being abused. And his mother gets him on the first flight home. And he came home even angrier.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because he had always seen the military as his one thing he could do in his mind, I'll go, I'm a misfit in this world. I can go join the military, deal with it there. And he couldn't hack it is what it comes down to.

[B]

Yeah. And so, like, Amy is sitting here telling us, like, she doesn't think he was being abused. He obviously was the abuser or was about to get kicked out or whatever the story is.

[A]

And also, like, these people do not do well with authority like that. That all comes down to.

[B]

So it's April 2007. Amy is at a frat party trying for five minutes to live her life for two seconds out of the house, maybe having a beer. Whatever she's doing, she's just trying to live her life.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

She has, like, 15 missed calls from her MOT, and it turns out that her brother had attacked her mother.

[F]

He creates a homemade flamethrower out of an aerosol can and a lighter. And he attempted to catch her on fire.

[B]

He tried to set their mother on fire.

[A]

He tried to make a homemade flamethrower.

[B]

And so then they call Amy to, like, come home and fix it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, like, Amy gets home, and this just escalates. He goes upstairs, jumps off the second floor balcony to the family car, which he destroys. Then he slashes the tires and runs off into the night. Where's the piece of shit, Dad?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

You know what I mean? Long gone. You know what I mean? Not dealing with this. Absolutely not dealing with this.

[B]

Long gone. You know, that's the other thing. That's Right. Right. So, like, Amy can't say Like Dad.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Can you come for five minutes? Could you help?

[A]

Like, can anybody help?

[B]

It's not an option for her.

[A]

It is such a nightmare for this family. It is so lonely. So lonely. I mean. And when you're Hadass, the mom, I wonder if you start wondering about the inevitability of what. There's only one way this can.

[B]

Yeah. And I think a lot of people, you know, like, she books him. The. The flight home. She does. You know, everything is like, well, maybe this will help. Maybe I'll help him. Maybe I'll fix him. Because for her.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, for her, it's her fault.

[B]

Right. Or it's not.

[A]

She can fix it.

[B]

Or. Or he said sorry.

[A]

Or.

[B]

So often the bad guys here know how to manipulate this person. So I'm sure there's a lot of apologies or a lot of. I promise, I promise.

[A]

One moment. That you see that little boy that you love? Do you see that little boy in that. In that one? Glee. And maybe it's even authentic. Authentic. You know? And you think he's there. He's in there. Oh, they know how to get to him.

[B]

They know how to play like a cuddle.

[A]

Girl. Ritual is back. Look, we gotta talk about it. We are not always not guilty of, like, eating our veggies, doing all the things that we need to be doing to filling in the. In the gaps in our diet. Right?

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Over 160 biomarkers. If I had to guess, I'd say there were what, like, 10? My God. So finally this guy's arrested, right? He's arrested and put in prison for assault.

[F]

He would her probably about once a day when he was in jail, he would tell her he was sorry. He would tell her he would never do it again. To be a mother and to be hearing those promises from your child, she had to have unending hope for him.

[B]

And it's, like, exactly what she wants to hear. And I don't. You know, you can't blame her.

[A]

No. And the psychotherapist breaks it down for us. She says. She calls it a trauma bond, she says, where you're intermittently rewarded with kindness and intermittently there's punishment. Punishment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes. A lot of people say. Now, I think it's one of those things. What is it? Not an idiom, but it's like, just like the beauty of language, where. Now, trauma bonding has also been. People use it to say, like, we've been through some.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Together. We're trauma bonded because we've been through together. Which is not, like, technically what it means, but when you say it like that, like. Oh, I know what you mean by oh, I'm trauma bonded to this person. Exactly. We were in the trenches during this horrible thing. Yeah, but that's. This is, like, the real meaning.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

Like, totally on paper meaning. But you know what. What do they call it? Call it not. Is it linguistics? I don't know. I can't think of the word. But it's. You know, language changes.

[A]

You said the beauty of language. I like it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, great. I'll take it.

[A]

But we learn now. I was just saying this a second ago. Like, does Hadass, the mom. Is she starting to see the inevitability? And she is, because we learn that she gets accidental death, life insurance. And Amy says, I never faced up to the reality the way that she did. And I thought that was interesting, because I was getting from Amy that she understood how dangerous he was in the moment. And she didn't.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, and I think when you're living that close to it, you can't really see, you know?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. And I think age plays a part.

[A]

And you can never believe. You could never believe that this person that you love would actually ever hurt you.

[B]

Yeah. And, like, my speculating wildly would be like, I wonder if Amy's mom was trying to protect her in some way. If, like the focus became, you know, to protect. You know, I'm just, kill me if.

[A]

You have to kill someone or like.

[B]

Hurt me or whatever. I mean, he was going to hurt, but he was hurting both of them. I know that, but I'm just. I was just wondering if maybe that was a possibility also. I don't know.

[A]

But also Amy's mom just needed an ally. You know what I mean?

[B]

I mean that too.

[A]

And it's unfair. It's not. It shouldn't have been Amy's job to be the ally. She's a kid, you know.

[B]

Sure. So we're at September 25, 2007, the night of the murder. Now we're back at the top again. And Amy's mother and brother are both calling her incessantly while she's at work. And, you know, the tension is really growing, but no one's saying what's going on on those messages. So she's like, what is like, leave, I'm at work. Like, what? You know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So now we're at the phone call from the top of the episode where Amy's brother calls her and it's admits that he has killed their mother and he has killed their mother by stabbing her to death.

[A]

Now, this is what we didn't get at the top. Amy describes the cuz she got. She gets home and she goes into the kitchen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is really bad. So this is a trigger warning. Jump ahead 15 seconds if you want. And she sees her mother laying in a large pool of blood with what.

[F]

I initially saw at first was her hand outstretched and the phone just outside of her reach. And then I saw that the knife that Jesse had used to kill her was still in her neck.

[A]

The knife that Jesse had used to kill her was still in her neck.

[B]

Yeah. And Amy says, like, even before she walks into the house, that one phone call, she. Her whole family's gone.

[A]

Well, and that really hit me in that moment too, that, like, everything's gone. Her whole family is gone.

[B]

Right. As she knows it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because now we learn she has a, you know, a beautiful. But in that moment, she gets this phone call and it's like it's over.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's this moment where Amy's answering a question and, you know, the question from the producer was like, what did it feel like? Tell me the emotion. And she's like, I cannot describe the emotion of finding my mom.

[B]

Nobody can. Yeah.

[A]

I don't have the words for it.

[B]

Right. It's a, that's a shitty if true shitty question.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And she just says my brain was on fire. And that feels right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And so after the murder, the killer takes a shower, changes clothes, stole his mother, who he just murdered in cold blood, steals her car, goes to meet up with a friend, tells the friend he needs to get the hell out of town. Like switches cars with the friend, like really tries to get away with it. But the cops catch him a few hours later. He's just a few miles away from his house.

[A]

He took a shower with his mother dead on the kitchen floor. He took a shower?

[B]

Yeah. Like you said, this isn't reality. We're not on the same plane here, you know, and, and I think, think that happened really early on. And that's very scary when someone has been living in an alternate reality for such a long time, there's like nothing to lose.

[A]

Right. And Amy says, like it took three or four hours for them to find him. And she said, those are the scariest hours of my life.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

He's gonna come back and get me.

[B]

I, yeah, I don't know where she was. I, I can't imagine she'd want to be in that house for many reasons.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So he's arrested and charged with the murder of Hadass Winnick. And you know, it was, was like so violent, so senseless. Cuz he like. And we learn what happened according to him, like the story he tells, which I like, I believe this cuz it based on everything we know about him, like this makes sense, but not, you know what I mean, it doesn't make sense. But it was because he made a mess. He made lunch, made a mess.

[F]

My mom wanted to make food and had turned to him and said, put everything away, I'd like to use the counter. And he said no. She continued and said, if you're going to eat, you're going to clean up too. And he responded by killing her.

[B]

Hey, could you clean that up? And now we're here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's been looking for a reason to kill her.

[B]

And this was, it could have been anything really.

[A]

And you know, Da Matt and I do think about these people, the police officers who come to the scene and the EMTs who are there and then the DAs who have to learn. Learn the deal. He's just describing. He's like, one of the things I've had to learn in my career is how very difficult it is to kill somebody with a knife. That it's very Personal. You have to get very close.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he doesn't even describe the mechanics of what. Like the physical strength that it takes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And he says it's extremely bloody and gory, you know, and like. And somebody says it later, but I'll say it now. Like, this person has no conscience. I mean, it really just is that simple. He just has no consistency. Conscience.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yes. And so, you know, it takes over four years for the killer to be sentenced. And in that time, Amy's like, I couldn't sleep. I didn't want to be alone ever. She never felt safe. She'd never. Okay. All right. So he's awaiting sentencing. But, you know, if he could do this, maybe he's going to come get her.

[A]

I mean, but we also learn why it took four years. And we've seen this before a million.

[B]

Times right out of the same playbook.

[A]

Right. And he's basically just doing anything he can to stall, to keep it. Because what he's hoping is that he thinks Amy has some power to get him some sort of less.

[B]

Or she would pull back, or she'd say, no, no, no. Or she'd step up to say, just for the sake of having this be over, she'd pull strings as the sister. No, that's not gonna happen.

[A]

No. But he's thinking that if he can stall long enough, he'll wait her out. So he's doing all of those things.

[E]

He would start taking medication for one of his mental illnesses and then abruptly go off the medication right before the trial was supposed to start. Then he could be deemed mentally unfit to stand trial and the whole thing would be delayed again.

[B]

Again.

[E]

He would fire his lawyers abruptly so that a new team had to start from square one.

[A]

He's firing his attorneys and making them all start from scratch.

[B]

Yeah. Can I ask a question?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

This person specifically in this case, why? And I'm really asking. So if you have an answer, let me know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Why does he have a choice about taking his medication?

[A]

I mean, you know, I know the answer. Well, no, but my. My. My only answer to that is, I guess it's probably some law somewhere that we can't force people.

[B]

That we can't force people. Which I understand. I know the repercussions of that if that becomes a fucking law. I'm not saying that, but it's just interesting that, like, in this moment, he still has the power to do that, to try to play that game, to say, oh, I'll take the medication. And then he knows enough when to stop it so that he'll be mentally unfit to stand trial. Like, if he's playing that, then that shouldn't be part of the equation anymore.

[A]

It shouldn't be allowed. Like, and it. And that's.

[B]

So that's. That's what I'm asking, right? Like, that's what I'm not asking.

[A]

You can take your medication or not, but we're not going to let that affect.

[B]

And that was the better question. That's what I should have.

[A]

No, no, no, no. I just. I think every judge is like, how do we not let this drag on in Appeals court for 15 years? You know?

[B]

But it's like, well, he's. He's dragging it on for four.

[A]

Listen, you know, I'm up for Jillian's Law anytime you're ready to make the show. You know what I mean?

[B]

I have a lot of work to do. I have a lot of education to get through if that's. If we're going to be doing it.

[A]

I think that you. In your town, you run it from your gut.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, that I can do.

[A]

That's what I'm talking about. That's the show we want.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

Gillian's Law.

[B]

Oh, we're talk checks.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You have a very high moral compass.

[B]

I'm starting tomorrow.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Actually, I started quite some time ago.

[A]

Totally. I've been watching Gillian's Love for eight years now.

[B]

You know, sometimes. Sometimes it's a good show.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That Tuesday night lineup, it's on fire.

[B]

This Must See tv.

[A]

It's Must See TV back in the day. Totally.

[B]

So meanwhile, though, Amy feels like she's on pause. These constant delays. She. She can't sleep. She's a total wreck. She just want. And like, also what no one is talking about is, like, her grieving process. Grieving about her mother Grie. For the relationship with her brother. Like, all of these realizations that she's having on top of the fear.

[A]

Also, like, coming into the knowledge that she was sexually abused.

[B]

Of course, there's a lot.

[A]

Yes, a lot. Yeah.

[B]

And at this time, she's sort of in limbo of, like, when are we going to get the one thing that maybe could be a big step forward.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Is just delay, delay, delay.

[A]

Right. And like, she says she would visit him in prison and try to get him to plead guilty. And he's like, you need to forgive me. Mom visits me in my dreams and she forgives me.

[B]

And Amy said. Amy's like, well, I don't forgive you.

[A]

Well, I don't forgive you.

[B]

Also, you're lying. Also up.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like I should know. She, even if she did remember Lori.

[A]

Fallow saying that like the wife of the husband that she killed visits her in prison.

[B]

Yeah, like, give me a break.

[A]

I mean, oh my God.

[B]

She's another one we don't speak of anymore.

[A]

Sherry Babini. The name of the studio.

[B]

You know what? There's always one to replace them.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Or I'm going to be like that one. You can't talk about that one either.

[C]

No.

[B]

Ted Bundy again. We're done. We're not doing it.

[A]

Absolutely. Girl. Miracle made sheets are back. Those are the self cooling sheets that we are totally obsessed with. Especially in the summertime.

[B]

Yeah. Here's the thing. For me, like one of the things that would keep me up at night is my temperature wasn't regulated.

[A]

No, that's the worst. That's the worst way to sleep.

[B]

Either you're too chilly or you're too hot. I like being cozy. So like I'm using the covers, everybody. I'm not going to sacrifice that. No Miracle made. I don't have to.

[A]

But they are also self cleaning, fam. So these sheets are infused with the silver that Prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and and fresh three times longer than other sheets. No gross odors. I'm telling you, the gross sheet odors is like a real thing.

[B]

Yeah. And it's good for your skin. Like, I'm sorry. Stop sleeping on bacteria. Truly, bacteria can clog your pores, causing breakouts, causing acne. You're sleeping clean with Miracle.

[A]

Now the thing about them being cool, they are using silver infused fabrics inspired by NASA. Yeah, NASA.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These are the space people.

[B]

That's science, everybody.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And it also makes you feel like you're sleeping at a hotel, which is my favorite thing. They are so luxurious.

[A]

So fam, upgrade your sleep as the weather heats up. Go to try Miracle.com TCO to try Miracle made sheets today.

[B]

And whether you're buying them for yourself or hey, as a gift for a loved one, love it. If you order today, you can save over 40%.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Again, that's try miracle.com TCO to treat yourself.

[A]

Thank you, Miracle Maid, for sponsoring this episode.

[B]

Thank you and my amazing sleep, truly. So the killer pleads no contest to the charge of second degree murder of Hadass Winnick. And. And he gets 15 years to life. But we're not done. It doesn't.

[A]

We are not done.

[D]

Instead of engaging in rehabilitative programming and bettering himself, he continued his rampage of violence by assaulting officers, threatening staff, fighting other inmates, and generally continuing a life of crime.

[B]

He's attacking everybody. So at the top of the app, lawyer Matthew told us about how he heard about the killer.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Like, now we see this prison body cam footage of what happened, happened.

[A]

We see the prison body cam footage of this piece of shit shanking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A corrections officer, right?

[B]

So he, like, brought the. He made two shanks, brought them into the yard and just calling it a.

[A]

Shank because they want us to call it an inmate manufactured weapon.

[B]

Oh, it's a shank.

[A]

They do not want to. They don't want to call it by the street name.

[B]

Did nobody call it a shank?

[A]

He goes, well, the first time he calls it an inmate manufactured street weapon. And then when we get back to it now, he's like, he had two inmate manufactured street weapons, also known as shanks. I was like, thank you, Matt. Thank you. Thank you, Matthew.

[B]

You, please, please. But, like, it's crazy to see because he attacked the guy wearing the body camera.

[A]

Well, and the thing about it was, remember now, once again, this is gruesome, so skip ahead if you want, but he stabbed his mother in the neck, and that's how he killed her. And they say that's what he was trying to do to this corrections officer.

[B]

Yeah, like, you know, I know it's a controversial word, but, like, he just looks crazy. He's, like, running around like, this person is not here.

[A]

And, like, the crusher's officer spraying him with pepper spray. It's mayhem. It's malice at the palace.

[B]

Like, we're. I mean, but this guy's evil.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, and like, to be born. It's just when you see someone physically in action like that, you're like, whoa. And like, Amy was living with this person. I know her mother was living with this person. And like, when you see him in action like that, because we never see that.

[A]

Right? Like, it's true.

[B]

We're just being told we're in the.

[A]

Age of body cam now, baby.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

And so to see that, like, you're just like, oh, my God, Amy. Oh, my God. Like, holy shit. Yeah, Holy shit.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's really scary. And the only thing that's scarier than that is that after only nine years, he gets his first parole. Parole hearing. So Amy didn't know. Like, she. She gets notified, like, the week before.

[B]

She's terrified. She goes, the rug was pulled out from under me. She starts mentally. Nine years, nine and a half. But still, it's not. I'm not. I don't mean to split hairs.

[C]

Yeah, Sucks.

[A]

It's horrible.

[B]

So Amy. It's all online. So Amy attends the hearing online, and she tells us.

[F]

He said, I entered prison as a bad man, and I've only gotten worse. I've stabbed over 90 people since getting here.

[A]

And he's trying to say, you gotta let me out. Cause it's making me worse. Yeah, it's a weird argument, bro.

[B]

It's. But it, like, is it. And I hate that because it's like, well, it's not working. He should be getting some kind of treatment. Where is he gonna get the treatment? Or at least be in place somewhere.

[A]

Where he is locked away from human.

[B]

Beings, where other people are safe. And it's like, okay, so now we're not. I don't know what these 90 people did, but now he's endangering others. Like, what are we doing here?

[A]

Like, I'm sure one or two of them deserved it.

[B]

I was gonna say, but, like, how many of those people shouldn't have been in prison at all?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

How many people are awaiting trial? Like, how many. What the fuck are we doing with the prison system? It sucks. Burn it down.

[A]

Well, I agree. Which is why I wanna say I don't care where you put him. Just put him somewhere where he can't. Where he can't be. Like, put him in some hospital where he's locked in a room somewhere.

[B]

And it's so obvious to me that, like, our system is so beyond broken. Cause it's not about rehabilitation if they're just, like, allowing this to happen. 90 people.

[A]

And it's also. He's the kind of person who couldn't be helped. Well, I think that he's a rare example of a person who cannot be.

[B]

Oh, 100%, you know, but you can at least just be aware. Like, who do you think you're dealing with?

[A]

Yeah, I want this person Somewhere where he can suffer alone in silence and never be touched again and never experience joy or sunshine. But, like, just get. Like, it doesn't have to be. I don't care where it is. Just get him. Like, get him out of here.

[B]

Well, I think what we're saying in, like, 15 different zigzaggy ways is that, like, the system's broken.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And that's just how it is. Because Amy, at this hearing. We're not even done with the parole hearing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Amy is at the hearing. Everyone is, like, on zoom or whatever. And in front of the parole board, Amy's brother starts threatening her. I had to go back, and I'm like, in front of everybody, I said.

[F]

You have already done the worst thing possible. You've killed our mom. At which point he then recited a recent address of mine and said he could have friends visit me and take care of me and my children, and.

[A]

I could have friends show up and take care of you and your children.

[B]

During the parole hearing. Now I'm thinking, oh, slam dunk. This guy just got another 10 years.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the parole board is like, amy, could you turn off your camera, please? She does. Meanwhile, her brother is doing the throat slice motion to her, which, again, is not just a threatening motion. Triple threatening for Amy because of how her mother was murdered by this piece of shit. So even though her camera's off, he's looking into the camera while the parole board is discussing the first threat.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

He's continuing to threaten her. I swear to God, if this guy gets paroled, I will lose my mind.

[C]

So.

[B]

But. And I know that sounds impossible. Crazier things have happened. I have zero trust in the system.

[A]

But, no, I mean, the thing about it, too, is that when this is all over, obviously he's denied parole, but Amy writes to the prison and wants him charged for the death threat against her. And they refused because this occurred at.

[B]

A parole hearing, which you would think, like, that's an official thing. Right. Several witnesses. It is probably recorded on Zoom. Like, you're thinking there's. She didn't elaborate. She didn't embellish. She didn't make it up. Like, this is real. Right. Amy is told, no, they cannot charge him for the death threat because, quote, it's not a big enough threat. Sorry. And I'm like, ah, there's the system we have.

[A]

I mean, oh, my God. Horrible.

[B]

And guess what? Amy ends up getting a phone call from a detective.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Who wants to talk to her. And he goes over to Amy's house and he Says to her, did you have anything to do with your mother's murder? And she's like, whoa, can you really? Not the way I thought this conversation was going to go.

[A]

Yeah. No, no.

[B]

I thought you were here about the four death threats I just received in front of the parole board on Zoom that was recorded. No.

[A]

Piece of shit killer had written a letter to another inmate. I thought they weren't allowed to do that, by the way. I thought inmates weren't allowed to write to other.

[B]

There's a lot of shit they're not allowed to do that they do.

[A]

I guess that's true. And so he says in this letter that Amy planned the whole thing and promised him all of this, what she calls non existent money, to carry it out.

[B]

And that in this letter, the killer says to the other inmate that Amy needs to be, quote, taught a lesson because she's not holding up her end of the bargain, whatever that may be. Yeah, I'm like, we're not seriously entertaining this, right? Like, the killer's blackmailing Amy, like, for. No. Like, what?

[A]

And. But what's great about this is that the inmate was supposed to go to Amy and be like, hey, you need to hire your brother or lawyer and give him money or he's going to kill you or I'm going to kill you. He doesn't do that. He goes to the DA and it's DA Matt, the guy from the beginning, who. He's like, tell me again about what he did during that.

[B]

Amy's brother on two seconds.

[A]

Yes. And he gets him charged. So. Whereas the parole board was not willing to, like, file charges if they can or whatever ever D A Matt charges this piece of shit.

[B]

Because Da Matt's like, wait a second. Like, we know Amy's telling the truth, but he's like, let me see what happened to the parole hearing? Like, let me watch the video. Like, maybe I'll see. And when he watches it, he's like.

[D]

I was shocked, deeply shocked that that could happen at a parole hearing and that there would be no consequences as of yet. I charged him with several different crimes, including attempted murder, attempted murder of a public official, and two counts of possession investing in a weapon in prison.

[A]

DA Matt charges this piece of shit, he gets another 36 years.

[B]

Right.

[A]

DA Matt says that Jesse's sentence basically started over again, which meant that, like, he had only gotten 36 years or whatever for killing his mother, 15 to life. He was going to, like, get out at some point, and now he never will. Matt's like, basically, he's either going to get. Be too old to do anything when he gets out, or he'll die in prison.

[B]

Well. Well, in court, though, Amy makes a statement, and she talks about her experience living with this person for the first time.

[A]

It's her first time to publicly was.

[B]

Like, yeah, like, the abuse, the violence, the assault. And she talks about what it was like to lose her mother in such a brutal way at the hands of her. Her abusive brother. And she talks about living in fear, essentially her entire life.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And how she's not even safe from him when he's in prison. Like, nobody is safe from this guy, clearly. Even other inmates, either. Other officers. Like, we're living it. Everyone, you know, like.

[A]

Like, if he wants her dead, he can probably make that happen.

[B]

And it's undeniable, right, that, like, he's a danger to everyone around him.

[A]

Because it's like, what's she going to go live in hiding?

[B]

Right. You know, and so, like. And as she's saying this and speaking her truth publicly for the first time, her brother is talking over her the entire time. And I'm like, how is that even possible?

[A]

I know.

[B]

Fucking muzzle on this guy.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Why is he allowed to do that?

[A]

And you see that a lot in. They let these inmates, shut them up.

[B]

I know this woman is talking about what he did. Let her speak.

[A]

If they can put Hannibal Lecter on a dolly with one of those masks over his face. You know what I mean?

[B]

And he makes that creepy noise that I can't make. I can't do it.

[A]

Oh, my God, it's so good.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So anyway, in the end, they ask Amy if she wants a restraining order. And she's like, why? What will it do? Like, if he wants to kill me, he's going to kill me. And they're like, no, girl.

[B]

They're like, heard. But. But hear us out.

[A]

Restraining orders are amazing. It immediately criminalizes any time he ever reaches. It just adds more time to his sentence.

[B]

Right. Or if he. Or if someone else reaches out to you on his behalf.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So they're saying to her, it could possibly be a deterrent for him to reach out to anyone to speak to you. So she's like, okay, yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So everyone says the killer's in prison for the rest of his life. Like you were saying, if he survives prison, which is a very big if. Yeah, he'll be in his 70s when he gets out. But Amy has two kids. She's doing her goddamn best. She's here telling us the story, and she's like, I don't hate him. I'm angry. Like, I'll never forgive him. She's angry at her brother. She's angry at the system. Amy comes sit next to me, and.

[A]

She doesn't want to live with hate in her heart. I totally understand that.

[B]

And she says she was like, I just want to change the way systems receive victims.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And I'm like, oh, my God, yes. Like, all the systems, like. Cause she and her mother were victims of him while her mother was alive. And, like, you're saying, like, what system is in place to help?

[A]

Having been in a family like this, there is very little help for you.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, it ends with Amy.

[F]

I love my mother. I loved getting to know her. And I almost miss the things I didn't have that. I miss seeing mom as a grandma. I miss.

[B]

Hearing her voice.

[F]

I haven't heard it for 17 years. What a joyous person she was.

[B]

She misses her mother, and she wishes that her mother could have been a grandmother and, you know, but, like, she is making this her life's work to, like, fix the system to the best of her ability, at least in the way it, quote, receives victims. So, fuck yeah, Amy.

[A]

Fuck yeah, Amy.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

Oh, girl. We did. What's it called?

[B]

I'm gonna rename it. It's called the Murder of Hadassah Winnick as told by her daughter Amy.

[A]

Thank you so much. I love the name of that amazing fam. Join the Facebook group. Join the disky follow. Come join us on Patreon. Over 450 full ad free bonus episodes to download and binge.

[B]

Yeah. And in case you want to watch this, it's called I'm Related to a killer.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And it's good. I liked it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And we'll. We'll see you soon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With our new bonus episode. Episodes, we're, like, kind of just getting started with these. This is only number 10. Like, we got plenty.

[A]

Every so many more episodes coming out the. The back half of this year, you're going to hear from us a lot.

[B]

Yeah. We got a ton of stuff coming your way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. We love you, fam.

[B]

All right, we love you.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Bye.