455: Where is Jermain Charlo? (from "48 Hours S37E8")

Summary

True Crime Obsessed Ep. 455 Summary: “Where is Jermain Charlo?” (48 Hours S37E8)

Date: September 18, 2025
Podcast: True Crime Obsessed
Episode: 455
Theme:
This episode recaps a hard-hitting “48 Hours” investigation focusing on the 2018 disappearance of Jermain Charlo, a 23-year-old indigenous woman from Montana. Hosts Jillian and Gina analyze the facts of the case, highlight systemic issues around missing and murdered indigenous people (MMIP), and bring their signature mix of compassion, critical thinking, and humor to an ongoing tragedy—a case that exemplifies both the failures and hopes for justice in America.

---

Main Theme & Purpose

• Recap and analysis of “48 Hours” S37E8 “Where Is Jermain Charlo?”
• Explores Jermain’s life, the circumstances of her disappearance, potential suspects (notably her ex), and the broader crisis of MMIP.
• Scenes of family advocacy, law enforcement investigation, media coverage, and the use of awareness tactics (like billboards).
• Discussion of race, privilege, and the treatment of indigenous women in the justice system.
• Call to action for listeners to support MMIP advocacy and help generate leads.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jermain Charlo’s Disappearance

• Jermain, a beloved 23-year-old mother of two, went missing in June 2018 in Missoula, Montana ([02:13]).
• Last seen on CCTV near the Badlander Bar, late at night, with her ex-boyfriend, Michael DeFrance ([03:25–03:49]).
• Her family noticed her unusual absence and lack of phone/social media activity—Jermain was known for staying connected and was working to build her online presence ([09:01–09:34]).
• Family’s anxiety escalated as they called hospitals and police, facing limited urgency or support from Missoula PD ([10:15]).

2. Law Enforcement Response & Gaps

• Missoula PD initially dismissed the family’s fears, offering stock responses and minimal action, underscoring systemic problems in seriousness taken with indigenous missing persons cases ([10:46], [11:46]).
• Flathead Reservation police (Chief Craig Couture) took more notice, showing a divide between agencies ([11:04]).
• Detective Guy Baker from Missoula PD becomes central to the investigation—after returning from vacation, showing more compassion and drive ([15:48], [16:13]).
• Despite efforts and searches, the case remains unsolved, exemplifying the difficulties families face in such cases.

3. Media & Advocacy Efforts

• Family and community leaders use billboards to keep Jermain’s case in public view, a tactic increasingly vital for MMIP cases ([33:25–33:54]).
• Use of social media and iconic symbolism (e.g., red handprint campaign) to fight silencing of indigenous stories ([37:19–38:14]).
• Affirmation that lack of media coverage, compared to white victims, worsens outcomes and urgency ([40:42]).

4. Suspect: Michael DeFrance

• Michael DeFrance, Jermain’s ex and father of her children, identified as the last person to see her. He has a history of violence against Jermain ([44:02–45:12]).
• Timeline inconsistencies and shifting stories—Michael said he dropped her off at a food mart; her phone pings (confirmed by records) put her elsewhere, near his home ([27:13], [30:03]).
• Later, Michael admits he took her phone and disposed of it in Idaho days after her disappearance ([54:39–55:03]).
• Though not officially named a suspect, all evidence and behavior point to his likely involvement ([29:24–29:43], [54:27–54:39]).

5. Systemic Issues: Race, Privilege, and Justice

• Montana: Indigenous people are 6% of population but 24% of missing persons ([25:00–25:12]).
• Racism, colonization, and court bias play roles in the lack of action and accountability.
• Michael’s whiteness and family wealth apparently offer protection and privilege, both legally and in community perception ([34:15–34:53]).
• Court setbacks include overturning Michael’s firearms-related convictions due to technicalities ([52:26–53:04]).
• Ongoing gaps in cellular service make trafficking/foul play harder to track, another solvable but neglected aspect ([17:31–19:10]).

6. Family & Community Impact

• Jermain’s family forced to lead searches, raise awareness, and fight for progress—a massive emotional burden ([13:44–15:18]).
• Stories of resilience, heartbreak, and the unique cultural context for her loss; family members recall Jermain’s life, creativity, and connection with nature ([21:38–24:10]).
• Community advocates like Jen Murphy bring together indigenous women to create visual memorials and protest state inaction ([37:19–38:14]).
• Family maintains hope through dreams, spirituality, and determination to keep searching ([59:44–59:57]).

7. Call to Action & Resources

• Strong, clear requests for listeners/viewers to come forward with information.
• Detective Guy Baker’s personal phone number repeatedly shared: 406-396-3217 and 406-396-3218 ([57:13–57:18]).
• Website for donations and further info: mmiwproject.org ([58:52]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Someone out there knows what happened to Jermaine Charlo, and they're just not talking.” – Brittany Williams ([02:54])
• “We know you're there. Be brave.” – Jen Murphy ([02:59])
• “Six years with no leads is too long to wait on putting out that surveillance video.” – Gina ([04:17])
• “Indigenous persons make up only about 6% of the population, but 24% of the state’s active missing persons cases.” – Detective Guy Baker ([25:02])
• “Law enforcement ruled out human trafficking…we have enough evidence that I believe something else happened to her.” – Brittany Williams ([26:32])
• “He’s a white guy and she’s a missing and murdered indigenous woman. This is what we got to talk about today.” – Jillian ([34:15])
• “We have a problem, right? We know something causing the problem, and then we stop. And I just feel like we’re so close.” – Jillian, on missing infrastructure like cell towers ([19:04])
• Deeply moving: “I just wanted to tell you I found Grandma and Grandpa and I’m fine… It’s in Evaro.” – Valinda recalling a dream conversation with Jermain ([59:57–60:23])

---

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:13 | Introduction to Jermain’s case and her significance in the MMIP movement | | 03:25–03:49 | CCTV footage: Jermain’s last known images | | 09:01–09:34 | Family awareness of her disappearance and first moves | | 10:46 & 11:46 | Frustration with Missoula PD’s apathy | | 13:44–15:18 | Family- and community-led grid searches – including Jen Murphy’s involvement | | 16:13 | Det. Guy Baker takes over case and increases urgency | | 17:31–19:10 | Trafficking danger and infrastructure failures | | 25:02 | Disproportionate impact of missing Indigenous persons | | 29:24–29:43 | Police depiction of Michael DeFrance’s shifting story regarding last contact | | 30:03 | Cell phone evidence contradicts Michael’s story | | 33:25–33:54 | Billboards and community activism led by Jen Murphy | | 34:15–34:53 | Race, privilege, and accountability; Michael’s background | | 37:19–38:14 | Symbolism of the red handprint campaign in MMIP movement | | 54:27–54:39 | Michael’s admission of disposing Jermain’s phone in Idaho | | 57:13–57:18 | Detective’s contact numbers for tips | | 59:44–60:23 | Spiritual closure and the family’s dream encounter with Jermain |

---

Tone, Style, and Standout Moments

• Signature TCO style: Heartfelt, unfiltered, and peppered with wit (“Can we just get cell service there?…I will make the phone call myself.” – Jillian, [17:58]); honest anger at injustice; tangent on bears as vigilante justice (“if a murderer still tastes just as delicious as anything else, then we should really be enlisting the bears to do a little bit more work,” Jillian, [48:05]).
• Indignation at systemic racism and legal loopholes, especially in the context of domestic violence and indigenous communities.
• Personal stakes for the hosts: Repeatedly voice empathy for Jermain’s family and frustration over delays and bureaucratic indifference.

---

Action Steps & Further Information

• If you have information about Jermain Charlo’s disappearance, contact Det. Guy Baker: 406-396-3217 or 406-396-3218 ([57:13]).
• Visit & support: mmiwproject.org ([58:52]).

---

Final Thoughts

A powerful, emotional episode urging listeners not to let Jermain Charlo’s case go cold, and casting a critical light on the societal forces that allow such cases to languish. TCO’s hosts champion Jermain’s memory, her family’s persistence, and the push for broader justice for all missing and murdered indigenous women—calling for greater public involvement and systemic change.

---

Summary by PodcastGPT | For advocacy, education, and visibility.

Transcript

[Jillian]

Shout out to Katherine, who told me about this important episode.

[Gina]

Oh, really?

[Jillian]

So Katherine works for THV11 down in Arkansas. So when I was talking to all these reporters about, like, getting the word out about getting the DNA test. By the way, the DNA for the West Memphis three case is at the lab.

[Gina]

Oh, it's being tested.

[Jillian]

We should have results by the end of the year.

[Gina]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

I know, but Katherine's awesome. She's made stories about it, but one of the times we were FaceTiming or Zooming, she was like, this case is really close to my heart. Like, she loves. She listens to tco, and she, like, asked if we would cover it. So, Katherine, this one's for you, girl.

[Gina]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And thanks for all your help with everything. Katherine, you're like a champion for justice. Loving you. You're the best.

[Gina]

We're getting it. You're getting it done down there.

[Jillian]

I mean, Katherine, please.

[Gina]

Hi, Julian, be.

[Jillian]

Hello, Patrick Hines.

[Gina]

Listen, we've got nothing to hawk in the opening here. Can I make one request?

[Jillian]

What?

[Gina]

Can people stop walking in the bike lane?

[Jillian]

I can't even talk about it.

[Gina]

I know, I know. But can I tell you what happened to me today?

[Jillian]

I hate the bike lane.

[Gina]

Biking. Well, I was biking in the bike lane, going the right way. There was a man walk in the bike lane, dragging this enormous metal. I don't even know what it. But it was huge. I slammed into it. I thought I broke my arm.

[Jillian]

Oh, my God. I see the mark.

[Gina]

It hurts so bad. I almost went to urgent care today. I thought I broke my arm.

[Jillian]

Is it, like. Maybe.

[Gina]

It's very sensitive.

[Jillian]

That sucks.

[Gina]

Oh, there's, like, a little. There's a little bump there.

[Jillian]

You might have to get it checked out. That sucks. I need people. But if you have the bike lane, you got to use it. I don't want the bikes on the sidewalks.

[Gina]

Now, that isn't. Those people should go to jail. Like, bikers on the sidewalk should be in prison.

[Jillian]

I mean, the bike, it's a menace. It's making people not know how to behave.

[Gina]

It's pretty scary. But there are rules. You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

But you got to do it.

[Gina]

I know, but everybody. Pedestrians to bikers, too. We all got to work together here.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Also, hey, you know those lights that change colors?

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian]

That applies to you people in the bike lane.

[Gina]

That is also true.

[Jillian]

Like, that applies to you.

[Gina]

Well, I've touched a sensitive subject. I know, I know.

[Jillian]

It makes me crazy.

[Gina]

I shouldn't have started with that.

[Jillian]

The streets are Getting smaller.

[Gina]

There's one lane. There's one lane of traffic. Where there used to be four, there.

[Jillian]

Used to be four.

[Gina]

Welcome to our Bike Lane podcast.

[Jillian]

What are we talking about today, girl? So this is our 13th bonus episode. It's an episode of 48 Hours. It's season 37, episode 8. Where is Jermaine Charlo? Jermaine has become the western Montana face of missing and murdered indigenous people. And now we're to the point where it's the first anniversary, it's the second, the third, and you've been living in.

[Detective Guy Baker]

Limbo for six years.

[Jillian]

Yeah, I miss her.

[Valinda Morja]

I'm never going to say, oh, you know what? I'm going to stop searching for her.

[Jillian]

She's out there somewhere. But where?

[Detective Guy Baker]

What do you need to solve this case?

[Brittany Williams]

I feel like I got this puzzle in front of me, but I don't have all the pieces on the table quite yet. One or two pieces could break the case.

[Jillian]

Someone out there knows.

[Brittany Williams]

Someone out there knows what happened to Jermaine Charlo, and they're just not talking.

[Jen Murphy]

Come forward. We know you're there. Be brave.

[Gina]

What a name. Jermaine Charlotte Austin.

[Jillian]

Charlotte.

[Gina]

Oh, what a gorgeous, gorgeous name.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

So we're in Missoula, Montana. We meet Detective Guy Baker. He's been searching for Jermaine for six years.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Jermaine is 23 years old, mother of two, went missing in 2018. And Michelle Miller is our host. She's trying to get to the bottom of this.

[Gina]

So we see the last known images of Jermaine. They were captured on surveillance video on Friday, June 18, 2018, in downtown Missoula. We see Jermaine. She's outside a bar called the Badlander, and it looks like they're standing by a dumpster. I'm not exactly sure if that's what that is, but they're standing in front of something. There's a man behind her. There's a couple other people that she's, like, chatting to, and her and the man that's, like, by her side, they sort of, like, disappear into the night.

[Jillian]

It's shortly after midnight.

[Detective Guy Baker]

Six years later, with no arrest and no publicly named suspect, police release the video to 48 hours, hoping to generate leads.

[Brittany Williams]

Someone out there knows what happened to Jermaine Charlo. Jermaine walks out of view. So maybe somebody saw something that has never thought about contacting us.

[Jillian]

Police are giving the video to 48 hours, hoping that this episode will help. So we all have to work together on this one. Everybody.

[Gina]

I think that's Great. Six years with no leads is too long to wait on putting out that surveillance video.

[Jillian]

I know.

[Gina]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

I think that's part of the whole missing and murdered or indigenous. But I think that's like, the point.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

It shouldn't have taken that long for attention to be. No.

[Gina]

And I'm like, looking at this video and I'm like. I get that it's kind of grainy, but, like, somebody knows these other people. Like, we gotta. And we find out eventually. The police did talk to most of the people in this video, but it's like she's right there. Like, this is the part of this. You know, these missing people's cases are the ones that, like, really stick in my brain the most.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Like, we see her walking away and then she's just gone forever.

[Jillian]

She was there and then she's gone and now she's not. And this asshole is walking the earth, getting away with it.

[Gina]

I know. And it's like, this is another one of those where it's like we kind of know what happened, but we just can't prove it.

[Jillian]

I know exactly what happened.

[Gina]

I. Well, of course you do.

[Jillian]

But, like, we do. We've been through this.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

We also just had another domestic violence episode that we just covered, so it's very fresh.

[Gina]

Why can't we do Poop Cruise? And then one of the sad.

[Jillian]

We're doing the. The ruby slippers.

[Gina]

Oh, we're doing the gay one next week.

[Jillian]

And the ruby slippers talk about a.

[Gina]

Lot of gay stuff.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Even if it's not in the documentary. I'm going to find more gay stuff to talk about.

[Jillian]

Judy Garland. I know it's Dorothy. I. Oh, no, it's not just Judy Garland. It's Dorothy's iconic.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Ruby slips.

[Gina]

Do you know what I just learned? You know that scene where she's in the house and it's black and white and it goes to color?

[Jillian]

Yeah. That's cute. We're going to talk about that.

[Gina]

Well, the way they did it was like they painted everything in sepia tones, including the body double. It's not like a trick of the film. They actually painted them black and white.

[Jillian]

It cannot. I'll save it for next time. It cannot be under stated or overstated or whatever the right word is.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

How important going to color was like, what it did. Like, I'll save it. Like, that is like, it's not. I know we say iconic a million times, but, like, doing that in that movie, like going from black and white to color.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

It has change. It has permeated your life in ways you don't even know about yet.

[Gina]

Really?

[Jillian]

It's everywhere.

[Gina]

I feel like when I came out, I went from black and white to color.

[Jillian]

Yes, but like that. But see, like the fact that we even say that.

[Gina]

I was kind of joking, but I love where we're going with this.

[Jillian]

The fact that we even say that is because of the wizard of Oz. Really like that feeling of like, like we'll get into it. But I.

[Gina]

We're really going deep on gay shit.

[Jillian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, my personal opinion is that going from black and white to color in wizard of Oz has like changed. Like, storytelling has changed the way we feel about things has changed the way we communicate things. I think it's like a really important thing thing that happened in culture.

[Gina]

Are we making a film history podcast about gay stuff?

[Jillian]

I mean, that would be like amazing.

[Gina]

Oh my God. We can talk about Jeffrey and. And the bam. Platon.

[Jillian]

Yeah, sure.

[Gina]

Okay, great.

[Jillian]

Travel down the road.

[Gina]

Back again, girl. Home Chef is back. The other day I said to somebody, I don't cook. And they go, yes, you do. You cook Home Chef. And I was like, oh my God, you're right. I actually do cook because of Home Chef.

[Jillian]

Right. And users of leading meal kits have rated Home Chef number one in quality, convenience, value, taste and. And recipes.

[Gina]

We love it so much. So whether you prefer classic meal kits with pre portioned ingredients or the quick 30 minute recipes which Steve loves, oven ready options, microwave meals, or a dedicated family menu, Home Chef has it all. Fam. And it's hassle free and it's delicious and it's dinner.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And they also have 30 options a week. They have a variety of dietary needs. You can plan like a couple weeks in advance.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Gina]

And you can save tons of money. Think about like the alternative is like ordering out or buying more than you need at the grocery store. Home Chef customers save an average of 86 bucks per month on groceries.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And when meal planning ends up on the back burner, which, let's be honest, happens all the time.

[Gina]

Fast thing to go.

[Jillian]

Check out Home Chef's new five ingredient meals that simplify prep with super easy recipe steps using just five fresh pre portioned ingredients.

[Gina]

So fam. For a limited time, Home Chef is offering our listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box, plus free dessert for life. My favorite thing ever, go to home.

[Jillian]

Chef.Com TCO that's home chef.com TCO for 50% off your first box and free.

[Gina]

To start for life home chef.com TCO.

[Jillian]

Must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. Come on now, leave it to GP.

[Gina]

To come in with the rules.

[Jillian]

I'm just. I want. I don't want anyone to be surprised.

[Gina]

That's true. That's fair.

[Jillian]

Jermaine's answer here. Danny, Matt and Valenda Morja, Valinda.

[Gina]

I can't. With these names.

[Jillian]

They're so beautiful and they're like. They are just. They're like amazing women.

[Gina]

But once again, like, I'm so sad for them because Danny and Valinda, their whole life now is about Jermaine missing. You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

And the fact that, like, it has to be because the missing and murdered indigenous women and indigenous people stories are so undertold that, like, they're here to tell Jermaine's story and share their experience and also rightfully call out the bullshit.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes, Right.

[Gina]

Absolutely.

[Jillian]

So it's June 16, 2018. Jermaine's family's worried. No one's heard from her.

[Detective Guy Baker]

The family says Jermaine never went anywhere without her phone, so it would be unusual for her not to text or call. They knew she had been in Missoula.

[Valinda Morja]

So I kept calling her, calling her.

[Detective Guy Baker]

And when she didn't answer her phone, Danny had a feeling something wasn't right.

[Jillian]

She's not posting online, which is also alarming because she's, like, really working on building her social media presence. So, yes, she's not just someone who doesn't have her phone, but, like, she needs it for work. Like, it's weird that she's not posting.

[Gina]

And she's also really close with her grandmother and her grandmother specifically hasn't heard from Jermaine, which, like, Danny and Valinda are, like, that would never happen. They told talk 10 times a day.

[Jillian]

Yeah. They, like, they start calling the hospitals. They're really making moves.

[Gina]

That must be the scariest moment of your life when you're. When you're entering that phase of, like, oh, God, now we're calling.

[Jillian]

And then it's like, what do you hope for that. Like, that thing that we've talked about a million times. Like, you don't want there to be any information, but, like, the only information you hear would be bad news.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So it's like, what do you even root for?

[Gina]

And also, I'm not making a joke here. Like, unlike the Bradley family, like, this is an example of a family, like, dealing with their grief and being realistic about it in a way that serves.

[Jillian]

That they want answers no matter what the answer.

[Gina]

Is exactly, you know.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So Monday, June 18th. It's 48 hours since Jermaine was last seen. Valenda goes to the police. She goes to Missoula PD and the Flathead Reservation Police. And she's important.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Gina]

And she says that the Missoula Pd, like, did their due diligence. She uses the air quotes and everything. She's like, they basically, like, listened to me and then sent me on my way.

[Jillian]

Yeah. She's like, zero. Like, no urgency at all. She goes. They didn't even say, like, yeah, well, like, we have a checklist. We'll go through. Like, we've done everything we could do at that moment. Like, they didn't even give her that song and dance. Like, they just didn't give a shit.

[Gina]

It's the whole, like, adults can go missing if they want to, kind of. But then without looking at the fact that she's got two kids that she loves, she's super close with her family. She loves her exactly. Like, nobody ever does.

[Jillian]

Like, please.

[Gina]

Nobody ever does.

[Jillian]

Please. So, but the Flathead Reservation police. Police chief, Craig Couture. Real last name, I guess. Couture.

[Gina]

It sounds like it should be gay stuff.

[Jillian]

It's a little bit.

[Gina]

I can couture again.

[Jillian]

James St. James.

[Gina]

I know.

[Jillian]

I'm sure there's a Craig Couture, but his last name is really, like, if.

[Gina]

Your name is Craig Couture and you haven't opened a bouti on Main street, what are you doing?

[Jillian]

But Craig Couture sounds like his last name is not really Couture, but that's like, his brand. Oh, it's a great name.

[Gina]

I'm going to say one more time, if you are blessed with a name like Craig Couture, it is your obligation to open that cool dress shop on Main Street.

[Jillian]

He's not doing that.

[Gina]

I know he's not. He's doing the good work here, though. I do like this guy.

[Jillian]

Yeah. So. Because he's the Flathead Reservation.

[Gina]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

That's the difference. Everybody.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So it's June 20th. Four days later, Valenda files an official report with Missoula PD.

[Valinda Morja]

He did his due diligence and he checked the hospitals and the homeless shelters. I was told that she was not in immediate danger.

[Jillian]

The guy does the bare minimum. He checks the hospital's. Family already did that.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Check the shelters. Family already did that.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And Valinda says, I was told she was not in immediate danger. And I'm like, well, how do you know that, though?

[Gina]

Well, in fact, why don't you assume the opposite. If she's been missing for four days, doesn't that automatically mean she's definitely in immediate danger?

[Jillian]

Saying that is at best a guess. Yeah, it's not a very good guess. And it's just so dismissive. Like, how do you know she's not in immediate danger? It's been four days.

[Gina]

You would think that by now there would be some sort of training in place for. And I. And I'm sure that some places do this great. I'm sure that some places are sensitive and they listen to you and they let you believe that they care. But, like, you know what I mean? Like, that shit matters. Why are we not better at this?

[Jillian]

I think the room just shook again.

[Gina]

Do we need to stop and see if we're having earthquakes?

[Jillian]

Did you feel that?

[Gina]

No. Are we going to come out of this booth and be the only two people remaining on Earth?

[Jillian]

Oh, please, God.

[Gina]

You want that? Because I'd be fun.

[Jillian]

It would be fun, but we'd both be bored.

[Gina]

I wouldn't be bored.

[Jillian]

You get bored. No, I would 150 million percent eventually be bored.

[Gina]

No, what would happen is you would be very good with your boundaries. You would let me know that I could see you once to twice a week. We would watch movies. We'd probably drink vodka. We'd maybe dance a little bit. And then I would be. I would be bored because you wouldn't want to hang out with me all the time.

[Jillian]

That's true.

[Gina]

That's why I would be bored.

[Jillian]

All right, we got weather conditions causing flight disruptions.

[Gina]

Huh.

[Jillian]

Some of the pools are closed. I don't know. There's nothing.

[Gina]

Okay.

[Jillian]

I got no alert. I don't know. That was weird.

[Gina]

I don't think the room shook.

[Jillian]

What?

[Gina]

I don't think the room shook.

[Jillian]

Probably didn't, but I am kind of.

[Gina]

Imagining this world where it's just you.

[Jillian]

And me, but then we have to get food and stuff.

[Gina]

Like medicines?

[Jillian]

Yeah, Like, I have medicines I have to take. You know, what am I gonna do?

[Gina]

Oh, God.

[Jillian]

I agree, too.

[Gina]

I.

[Jillian]

So the family is, as usual, forced to do everything themselves. They're organizing the searches. They're getting the word out. And Jen Murphy is here. She's an educator in Montana. She describes the, like, logistics of doing a grid search.

[Jen Murphy]

Every little step that you take, it's a grid search. So you can't be any farther than an arm's length apart so that you don't miss anything. So grid searching. A mountain with trees that are right next to each other is almost impossible.

[Jillian]

She goes, it's making it almost impossible to do this search.

[Gina]

And she says it with such sadness because. And I'm saying this in all seriousness, we got to find another way for the woods because, like, where's. Where are people putting the bodies? You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Valinda Morja]

I don't know.

[Gina]

We gotta find a better way to do a grid. They can't all be swamps and meadows. We gotta find a better way to do a grid search in the woods.

[Jillian]

I think this is just like, one element of it, right?

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

I mean, Lord knows they search the woods, but, like, I'm saying that Jen just says this with a lot of sadness because it's like, even if she's out here, we might not be able to find her.

[Jillian]

Yeah. It's really, really frustra, you know? And so Jen meets Belinda on one of these searches. Now, Jen didn't know Jermaine or her family when she joined the search, but she's very, very close with them now. They're like, all sisters now.

[Gina]

It was one of those things I was thinking where it was like, nobody meant for Jermaine to go missing, but once she did, God was like, we got to put these two together.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Or these three together, because Danny and Valinda and Jen are all very close. And Jen just takes this on like this Germain being missing also, like, she's indigenous herself. I was going to say, Jen is of the community. This really matters to her. She puts her money where her mouth is.

[Jillian]

Amazing.

[Gina]

She's incredible. But. But I will just say that there. There's just a lot of sadness, of course, with, like, the discussing of all of this.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And also to, like, talk about the logistics of how you do a search like that. Like, all really, like, sad information to know.

[Gina]

It's very technical when you're talking about a possibly dead loved one.

[Jillian]

Right. And it's like, oh, why can't they be. Oh, right. Because you don't want to miss anything. Oh, would you miss. Oh, this horrible thing. It's like you just spiral.

[Gina]

I also always think about you don't want to be the one to find them. You know what I mean? You're like, you're a volunteer doing this grid search. Like, I like that. How awful would that be to do?

[Jillian]

It's like we were like, what do you root for, even?

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes, yes.

[Jillian]

So Jermaine's been missing for 10 days. Detective Guy Baker comes back from vacation. He missed this whole thing.

[Gina]

Where was he, do you think?

[Jillian]

I don't know. Town over Montana is beautiful. You know, oh, gorge.

[Gina]

You know?

[Jillian]

But he hears about the case and he's like, oh, I'll take over, because the person in charge isn't doing anything. So he just volunteers. He's like, wait, I go away for two weeks and, like, the whole fudgeing place falls apart. So he comes back from vacation and he's on top of it.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Gina]

He really cares, you know, like, yeah, this case quickly becomes this guy's whole personality.

[Jillian]

And remember, he's not the reservation police, he's the Missoula police.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Which is an important distinction.

[Gina]

And it's good. Like, that's great that we've got something on the case there that really gives a shit.

[Jillian]

And that's, like, the point. He's like, wait, what? You're not doing anything. It's been 10 days. Like, what the hell?

[Gina]

Well, they also ask him if it's unusual for people to go missing in Missoula. He's like, oh, no, no, no, no. It happens all the time.

[Brittany Williams]

I think we have sometimes multiple people per week. 97, 98% statewide reported missing people are found. So it's that 2% that are the difficult ones.

[Gina]

Like, the vast majority of people who, like, were reported missing are found.

[Jillian]

Even if being found is a bad thing. Like, even. I think that's what he's saying, that, like, it's very rare to not have a body as dark as that is to say. I think that's what he's saying.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

And he's saying that he's afraid that Jermaine is going to be one of the difficult 2%. Like, there's, like, she's just gone.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Because he says. Guy says that he hears about people, quote, from out of state who were trying to, again, quote, buy a girl.

[Gina]

Like, oh, my God.

[Jillian]

So he thinks maybe this is a trafficking situation. And we meet Brittany Williams, who's the deputy attorney of Missoula county, and she says, like, look, human trafficking is a huge problem nationwide. Yes. But she says it's an even bigger problem in Montana because it has one of the largest interstate highways that goes right through Missoula.

[Gina]

That sent shivers down my spine.

[Jillian]

She says people can be swept away in an instant.

[Gina]

And she says because of the lack of cell phone towers, you can, like, they can be picked up and gone and heard from again in, like, instantly off the grid. And, like, we've heard this before, that the interstate is crucial in trafficking operations.

[Jillian]

Women of Highway 20, we talked about, you know, I mean, it is just.

[Gina]

Terrifying to think of the person that gets swept up and Knows instantly that their life is over.

[Jillian]

Yeah. I have a very real question. Like, can we just get cell service there? And I'm asking. These are all genuine questions, like, what is the hold up? Can we start a fundraiser? Like, what needs to be done? Tell me what it is and I will try to help in some way. I'm being dead serious.

[Gina]

I said not since the floodlights. Remember? We used to talk about that all the time with the known dumping grounds.

[Jillian]

Right?

[Gina]

Like, if we know if human trafficking in this area is such a problem because of the interstate and. And because of the lack of cell phone, like, start a charity, like, you can make this happen.

[Jillian]

I mean, who. I'm asking genuinely, I should have looked this up. But, like, if you happen to know, like, who do I have to call? Like, who's in charge of making sure there's cell phone service on a place where Britney just told us is like a hotbed of sex trafficking activity and human trafficking. It so easy for someone to be, quote, swept away in an instant.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

And why is the lack of cell service meaning that they're instantly off the grid? And, like, I'm asking what needs to be done. Tell me what it is. I will make the phone call myself.

[Gina]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

Like, I just want to know what we have. We have a problem, right? We know something causing the problem, and then we stop. And I just feel like we're so close.

[Gina]

Whereas I understand you can't just clear the woods of the known dumping ground. But, like, this is the thing, that this feels solvable.

[Jillian]

And I'm not. I don't want to. Please stay. I understand. I. And I.

[Gina]

But they're using the cell phone towers anyway. Let's just get a couple more.

[Jillian]

Right. And I know that if people want to do bad things, they'll figure it out. But if we can help people in some way by, like, seeing if they can not lose cell service and be instantly off the grid.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Then I'm just very. I'm very curious as to what the holdup is. And if anyone happens to know, please tell me.

[Gina]

I feel like you're asking all the right questions. I. I think you are.

[Jillian]

I've been gaslighting myself thinking, like, but if they are the right questions, why. Why am I asking them?

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Because it is interesting to hear Brittany say, like, here's a huge problem that is solvable, but nobod.

[Jillian]

Here's the thing that's causing it. Here's one of the things that are causing it that feels a little. If it's not if it's not possible, yes. I'd like to know why, and then I'll stop asking.

[Gina]

Okay, great.

[Jillian]

I'm just curious. Travel down the road.

[Gina]

Back again, girl. Helix is back. They're the amazing mattress that we all love and use. I told you. Once a year, we give up our apartment to this organization I work with. And every single time at the end of the weekend, they always tell me how much they love our mattress, like, how well they slept. And I'm not saying this for the ad read, like, helix, is that magical?

[Jillian]

It' girl, as they say.

[Gina]

It's that girl.

[Jillian]

We love Helix. So I used to be a really bad sleeper. Like, I would toss and turn a lot, or I just, like, couldn't get comfortable. So Mike and I took the sleep.

[Gina]

Quiz, which is essential. I don't know how everybody isn't doing this.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And, like, Mike sleeps differently than I do and whatever, but, like, we got the midnight lux. It has changed my life. Fiona loves it. She literally looks at us and, like, herds us into bed like, hello.

[Gina]

I love it.

[Jillian]

She gets so cozy. She makes the best noises. It's like, it's good for kids. It's good for adults.

[Valinda Morja]

Adults.

[Jillian]

It's good for your pets. We love it.

[Gina]

They send it right to your door, too. So you never have to go to a mattress store and, like, talk to a human again. Don't worry. We got you covered there.

[Jillian]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We're not doing that.

[Gina]

And people just freaking love it. Everybody loves her. Sometimes it's impossible to get Daisy out of her bed, but now they make twin beds for kids, so now she's got her own.

[Jillian]

Amazing. Yeah, and that's the thing, too. Like, it's super comfy, but you also feel rested. So in the real world, like, you can get out of bed. That's the other thing, too.

[Gina]

This is after a lifetime of, like, just not good mattresses. You know what I mean? Like, I look back on I sleeping before my Helix. I'm like, how did I ever do that?

[Jillian]

It's true. And I really thought, like, this is it for me, for life. Like, I'm just going to have a bad sleep forever.

[Gina]

No, no, no, no, no, no. So, fam, all you got to do, go to helixsleep.com TCO to get 25% off sitewide.

[Jillian]

That's helixsleep.com TCO for 25% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you.

[Gina]

Please do that.

[Jillian]

Helixsleep.com TCO.

[Gina]

So Jermaine's aunts give us the Jermaine backstory.

[Valinda Morja]

Even from the time she was a little kid, she had like, like the best personality. She's very outgoing, beautiful, resilient animal lover.

[Jen Murphy]

Oh, gosh. The list of pets she had is.

[Valinda Morja]

I think she had like a flying squirrel or something.

[Jen Murphy]

And then a pig.

[Valinda Morja]

She had two pigs. She's very outdoorsy. She had always loved to be by the river and fishing.

[Gina]

She even had a flying squirrel.

[Jillian]

A flying squirrel. She had tons of pets.

[Gina]

She had two pigs and a flying squirrel. Flying squirrels are amazing. Have you ever seen them, like on YouTube, like in action?

[Jillian]

They're very, very cool. Jermaine was fucking awesome.

[Gina]

People get how like, they're like, oh, I want to be a bird so I can fly. The flying squirrel is an under wished to be animal by little kids.

[Jillian]

Flying squirrels are very cool.

[Gina]

I couldn't agree more.

[Jillian]

So Valenda was 10 years old when her niece Jermaine was born. And she's like, where? We were close, but we weren't close at first.

[Guest/Contributor]

No.

[Jillian]

Because Valinda was like, I was 10, I was the youngest. She was not psyched to have this, like, beautiful little baby around, getting all the attention.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And she goes. And then she was like, I was the baby. She was stealing my thunder. Was not a fan.

[Gina]

I didn't like her at all.

[Jillian]

And then eventually someone was like, hey, can you hold the baby for a second? And then she held Jermaine and she was like, oh, I love her. I love her so much. And then, like, that was it. She goes, from then on, she was like my little sister. And they were super, super tight because.

[Gina]

They'Re like 10 years apart. And so Belinda really was like her big sister.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And Jermaine was also, like, really creative. We were told she was amazing, an amazing artist. Her dream was to go to the Institute of American Indian Arts in New Mexico.

[Gina]

She would crochet grocery bags to save the environment.

[Jillian]

She used nail polish to make art, but she was like, doing it for sustain ability. So I'm like, okay, so she's really cool and she's really creative and she loves animals and she has cool ideas and she gives a shit.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

And she's like, using her creativity to continue to give a shit.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And help the world.

[Gina]

I know, I know, I know. She grew up in the Flathead Reservation. They tell us it's at the confluence of the Flathead and Jackal rivers. And we see it, it is so beautiful. And then they, they tell US it's like 1.1 million acres of land I know of, like, forest, streams and mountains.

[Jillian]

Mountains. I know.

[Gina]

It's gorgeous.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And she had, like, super deep roots on the reservation.

[Detective Guy Baker]

She's a member of the Confederated Salish and Kootenai tribes and a descendant of Chief Charlot, known for his peaceful resistance during the 1870s when the tribe was forced to move from their ancestral land in Montana's Bitterroot Valley to the Flathead reservation.

[Jillian]

This was a really, really important figure in the community. And this is like her partner, a direct descendant.

[Gina]

Like, yeah, Jermaine was awesome.

[Jillian]

Yeah, awesome. So she was also a mot. She had two little boys, Jacob and Thomas, and she was co parenting with their father, who's a fudgeing loser and most likely a murderer.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

It was a, quote, strained relationship. And I'm like, here we go. Here we go. She's just like, she just ran off and she's fine. She's allowed to go missing. The strained relationship is never late.

[Gina]

That's my thing about that. It's like, okay, adults are legally allowed to go missing, but can we just take a look at the circumstances of their life before we decide that?

[Jillian]

Right.

[Gina]

And then give a shit?

[Jillian]

And, like, missing out of the clear blue sky? Like, give me a break. So she was working at the Big River Cantina on the Flathead reservation. She was hoping to find work as a seasonal firefighter. I'm like, the cool facts about Jermaine just keep coming.

[Gina]

I was, like, imagining her with one of those big fire hoses saving lives. She's in the middle of the woods. I know.

[Jillian]

I love her.

[Gina]

We need her.

[Jillian]

So, Brittany, the deputy attorney explains.

[Detective Guy Baker]

In Montana, indigenous persons make up only about 6% of the population, but 24% of the state's active missing persons cases.

[Jillian]

Cases. They make up 24% of the missing person cases.

[Gina]

It's just so glaring.

[Jillian]

It's so obvious.

[Gina]

And what took us so long to focus on this? I feel like we've just started focusing on the missing and murdered indigenous women, like, six years ago.

[Jillian]

Yeah. I mean, insufferable GP fact. Like, it's colonization. That's all it is. It's like the white. It's like changing history and villainizing these people that we still have a land from. Like, it's.

[Gina]

It.

[Jillian]

I mean, it all.

[Gina]

All.

[Jillian]

I'm sorry to say it. I know. Like, it's insufferable, but, like, that's what it comes from.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

It is completely rooted in colonization. The residential schools. Like, it all goes back to.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

How these indigenous people were treated by white people.

[Gina]

And we. I think we'll see even a bit in this episode that it was really. It took them deciding they had to tell their own stories for us to start to really learn about.

[Jillian]

Right, exactly. Like, being, like, backed into a corner and being like, okay, fine, we can't.

[Gina]

Have more women going missing from our reservation.

[Jillian]

Like, women and people. It's mostly women. I know that. But it's like, just like, people not giving a shit about the indigenous people. Like, how much more can we do to these people?

[Gina]

Right. And we're told, obviously, this is an epidemic. Right, Right. So we learn that law enforcement has ruled out human trafficking in Jermaine's case. And Brittany, the DA says, quote, we have enough evidence that I believe something else happened to her. This is. This is an episode full of, like. But it's an active investigation, so we can't tell you anything else.

[Jillian]

Everyone is like, however, yes. And they're, like, looking at us very plainly, almost looking directly into the camera, being like, it was the ex. But we can't say, like, that's.

[Gina]

She's blinking it more.

[Jillian]

There's, like, a lot of that.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So let's go back to the video of Jermaine outside the bar the last time she was seen. She's wearing the same outfit as she's wearing in a social media post from that day.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And in the video that we see from, like, the CCTV footage or whatever, Jermaine is talking to her ex, this asshole called named Michael Defrance. He's the father of her two kids. And I'm like, here we go.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

He spoke to the cops without a lawyer. He says he left with Jermaine. They got into his truck, they left the downtown area. He dropped her off at the Orange Street Food Farm, and that was it.

[Gina]

Because there's a friend nearby. According to this piece of shit, Jermaine has a friend named Cassidy who lives nearby. She's going to go spend the night there. And this drop off happened at about.

[Jillian]

1Am so Jermaine says to him, well, I'm going to crash with Cassidy, but instead of dropping me off at my friend's house, just drop me off at the food farm. And you're like, okay, right? So the cops. This is all going to make sense in 2.5 seconds.

[Detective Guy Baker]

Police didn't find a Cassidy, but they learned Jermaine had been visiting Missoula regularly because she was dating a man named Jacob who lived in that neighborhood.

[Jillian]

Jacob is a man that Jermaine was dating. He's out of town in another state. But they were, like, texting that night. He was infatuated with Jermaine. Like, of course. Like, why wouldn't you be? She's awesome.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So messages show that Jermaine was planning to crash at his place while he's out of town. And I'm like, oh, so she lied to the ex because he'd go crazy on her.

[Gina]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

Made up a girlfriend that. I totally get that. I believe that Jermaine would do that.

[Gina]

It's also, like, we're gonna learn later that there was so much tension, strife between Jermaine and her ex that I can't figure out why she got in the car with him in the first place, what they were doing at that.

[Jillian]

Bar together, their kids, maybe some. You know, like, you're taught when you have kids, you're, like, tied to these.

[Gina]

People, and when it's okay, it's okay. Probably.

[Jillian]

Yeah. You know, but she felt she had to lie to him, which is a major, major red flag. She's like, make up a friend.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Gina]

And so Jacob, the new boyfriend, tells the police that he tried to call her just before 1am and he thought it was weird that the call rang and rang and then somebody silenced it. It's not like it rang and rang, rang, and it went to voicemail. It rang, rang a few enough times that went to voicemail that he knew that somebody sent it to voicemail, which would have been weird for Jermaine to have done because that's her man.

[Jillian]

Right?

[Gina]

You know?

[Jillian]

Or, like, maybe she's with someone where she can't answer. Like, whatever the reasoning, it's suspicious. And the cat, the phone carrier, confirms this. So, like, it was silenced. Also, the day before Jermaine disappeared, Jacob, the new boyfriend, saw the piece of X quote, yelling at Jermaine, demanding that Jermaine tell him about who she was dating, which is absolutely none of his.

[Gina]

Business, and that he wanted to get back together with her.

[Jillian]

Right. And I guess you could argue that, like, as the father of the kids, like, he deserves to know who's around his children. Like, fine, but that's. No, I don't think that's what this was.

[Gina]

No. And it was like, this Jacob relationship was so new that. You know what I mean? Like, who knows if he even met the kids?

[Jillian]

Right?

[Gina]

You know, so.

[Jillian]

And Jacob was helpful. He was out of town at the time. He was never considered a suspect. The cops are like, he did not do this. It was the ex. But we can't say it was the ex because this is an active investigation. But also, we need your help, which is why we're on 48 hours. But it was the ex.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Podcast. If you know we did it, can you just fucking call the cops and give them the evidence? Like somebody knows.

[Jillian]

And also, the ex is not considered a suspect at this time.

[Gina]

It's funny because Da Britney will be like, well, he's not. Not a suspect. But we can't say that he is a suspect.

[Jillian]

Yes.

[Gina]

Yeah. I mean, it was. Yeah, it was.

[Jillian]

Yes, he's a bad guy. So Jermaine's phone, the investigators need to find it asap. And also I will say right now, to this day, they've never found her phone.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

But they want her phone. They can't find her phone. There is a reason.

[Gina]

Great news, though.

[Jillian]

What?

[Gina]

Michael knows exactly where it is.

[Jillian]

Well, weird. So based on the cell phone tower.

[Brittany Williams]

Information, we got cell that indicated it was active on the night she disappeared. And it was active multiple times, primarily between the hours of 2am and up until just about 10am on 16 June.

[Jillian]

Between the hours of 2am up until 10am also known as the fucking middle of the night.

[Gina]

Yeah, I wrote. Well, this seems big.

[Jillian]

And they kind of have a location. It's north of Missoula. It's in the area of Evero Hill.

[Gina]

And just as a quick reminder, Michael, the ex, the father of the two kids, kids, says that he dropped Jermaine off at that food place at 1am and her phone is active from 2am.

[Jillian]

To 10am Right, so because we saw her on camera at midnight.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So Everohill is on the Flathead Reservation. It's a very rugged area, like lots of trees and wildlife. Translation, hard to search.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And her ex knows this area very well because he lives there.

[Gina]

Right. So weirdly, her phone is active in that area after he says he dropped her off in downtown Missoula.

[Jillian]

Right. So the ex, they have a not great relationship. He was the last person to see her. He was yelling at her on the video. And he lives where her cell phone was last active.

[Gina]

Right. And like in his story. These people are so dumb. In his story, he dropped her off but kept her phone. You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

Or she left it there and then he didn't drop it. Like, he just. He's full of shit.

[Gina]

Yeah. And so like the cops say that they search this area of Ever Hill, but she has not been found. But of course she. If she is there, I mean, it's thousands of miles of wilderness.

[Jillian]

Right?

[Gina]

Travel down the road back again Girl, Function is back. I've been using Function for weeks and weeks now. And look, I chose Function because it's the only health platform that gives me data most people never get and the insights to start doing something about it. I'm obsessed.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Inside Function, you get access to test over a hundred plus biomarkers, from hormones to toxins to markers of heart health, inflammation, and stress.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

So I'm getting older. I'm 47 years old. I'm thinking about aging. And there's lots of these biomarkers that have to do with aging that you can also be monitoring on that function dashboard. And for an additional fee, fam, you can also access MRI and chest CT scans, all tracked in one secure place over time.

[Jillian]

Yeah. It's a near 360 degree view to better see what's happening in your body.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

That's why top health leaders like Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and Dr. Jeremy London are all behind Function Health. I gotta tell you, this is not your blood work that you're used to. Like, this is everything you need to see and then action steps you can take. I love looking at it.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And look, aging well isn't just about looking younger.

[Gina]

No.

[Jillian]

You know, it's about keeping the systems that matter most in peak condition.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Gina]

For example, hormones influence how aging unfolds. So men tend to lose muscle mass gradually as testosterone declines. Monitoring my testosterone levels was one of the reasons I wanted to get on function.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And women may experience a sharp drop in estrogen during menopause, accelerating bone loss and raising cardiovascular risk. We can't have any of that.

[Gina]

No. And you can like, literally look at it and then follow the action steps. It's like what to do to fix it.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

So fam. Learn more and join using our.

[Jillian]

Our link function is a near 360 degree view to see what's happening in your body. And our first 1,000 listeners get a 100 credit toward their membership.

[Gina]

Visit functionhealth.com tco or use gift code tco100@sign up to own your health.

[Jillian]

That's right.

[Gina]

It feels good to do it. I gotta tell you, gotta own it.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yep.

[Jillian]

So Jermaine's family puts up a billboard and Jen Murphy took the idea and ran with it. Now, if you remember, Jen is the indigenous woman who didn't know Jermaine and her family, but joined the search and then became like family to Jermaine.

[Jen Murphy]

I currently am doing a project with billboards throughout Montana and throughout the United States. I try to have billboards as close to our reservations as possible. Trying to make sure that speaking to the perpetrators too, like, we see you.

[Jillian]

I also want to speak right to the perpetrators too. We see you. It was the X. It was the X.

[Gina]

It was totally the X. And like, I was trying to put myself in the mindset of the killers who drive by these buildings. Boards, you know what I mean? Like, what must that be like for them?

[Jillian]

But also they kind of probably some of them kind of love it and.

[Gina]

They know they're getting away with it because they're taking advantage of the fact that nobody cares.

[Jillian]

I mean, also, this ex. He's white.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

That should also be part of it. I'm sorry. Like, I know everyone's sick of me talking about it, but like, he's a white guy and she's a missing and murdered indigenous woman. This is what we got to talk about today.

[Gina]

And part of the reason he maybe did this, this allegedly is because he knew he would get away with it because nobody goes looking for these people.

[Jillian]

And just like a quick. He comes from money, this guy.

[Gina]

Oh, does he?

[Jillian]

Yeah. So I think that's part of it. He's like rich and white and can absolutely get away with things.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And I think that is an important part of it. Of course, you know, like, his, his family's pretty connected in the community, so I've read.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And just like little things here and there, but like, oh, like that sort of adds to why we're talking about this.

[Gina]

Right?

[Jillian]

Right.

[Gina]

Yes.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Not say we've also done stor other indigenous men have killed indigenous women.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

I'm just saying I think it's worth mentioning that this guy's white and rich.

[Gina]

Before you said that, I was going to say, I think it's a very important point to point out that this man is white and one of the reasons he knows he can get away with this is because she's indigenous and like, well connected.

[Jillian]

He's white and well connected. Like, come on.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

We got to talk about it today.

[Gina]

I hope he's listening.

[Jillian]

Oh, him. And I'm. I'm not saying allegedly. I'll say it.

[Gina]

Okay, great.

[Jillian]

What is that? Slander, libel?

[Gina]

I don't give a.

[Jillian]

Is he going to do sue me?

[Gina]

Maybe.

[Jillian]

Maybe. Well, maybe he won't.

[Gina]

Maybe he won't.

[Jillian]

I'll take that.

[Gina]

First, you know what? I want you guys to do a steel cage match. Whoever wins, wins.

[Jillian]

I don't think I could do that.

[Gina]

I. You know what would happen? The rage would come out if you were in the in the ring with this killer, you would go blind and you. And then all of a sudden he'd be dead.

[Jillian]

I have a couple moves because I took some like martial arts courses for. I took like Muay Thai and not like seriously. I never like, fought anyone, but I like took the class. It was all dudes. It sucked because they were. I felt very uncomfortable there.

[Gina]

Why did you take it?

[Jillian]

I wanted it as like a. To do like a little bit of a workout. But I also wanted to arm myself in some way. So I thought like, I love like.

[Gina]

Your work, like your self defense. How can I beat these fuckers ass?

[Jillian]

I was just like, I want to be able to protect myself and I also want to work out. So I figured like, it's got to do both two birds, one stone. And I like it. Like, I like a boxing workout. I like that kind of thing.

[Gina]

You're so hot. So I got some moves like with your hair, like in the ponytail doing with the gloves.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

But my point is just if you got in the ring with this guy, you, you would beat him to death and you wouldn't even remember a couple.

[Guest/Contributor]

I know I got a couple.

[Gina]

It's the blacking out for me.

[Jillian]

And with him I'm going to fight dirty.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gina]

Like, because you wouldn't remember it, but I'd get to watch and it would be wild.

[Jillian]

Great.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Film it. Tell me about it after.

[Guest/Contributor]

Absolutely.

[Jillian]

Whatever.

[Gina]

We're the only two people left on the planet. What else are we going to talk about?

[Jillian]

Did I get him?

[Guest/Contributor]

You got him.

[Jillian]

Okay, good. So, like, we learn more about missing and murdered indigenous women.

[Detective Guy Baker]

In 2019, the Justice Department created a task force to investigate cases of missing and murdered indigenous people around the country. Social media has helped to ignite the.

[Jillian]

Movement, but this is actually very cool. So we have footage from the 2024 Emmy Awards. So Defaro Wunatai is from Reservation Dog. It's an excellent show. It was on fx. You should definitely watch it. But he's wearing like that famous red palm print on his face that sort of become like the visual of the movement on the red carpet at the Emmys.

[Gina]

And it looked the thing about. Can we talk about the red.

[Jillian]

I would love to.

[Gina]

So that woman, Jen Murphy, the one that became like a sister to Belinda and Danny, the aunt, she came up with this idea.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

And it is such a striking image. And she says the idea of it. Google that family. If you don't know what we're talking.

[Jillian]

About, you've seen it, you'll be like, oh, yeah.

[Gina]

It's like an indigenous person standing there with a red palm print over their mouth, like they're being silent. And it is such a perfect image. It's like, it reminded me a little bit of, like, the no Hate campaign.

[Jillian]

Oh, yeah.

[Gina]

Remember that? Like, it was super bright white light, and then there was the duct tape over their mouth, and it just said, like, N8, like, no hate. And it was. You know, these visuals are so important, but these are. These photos are so striking. I don't know if you saw it, but the district attorney, Britney, has one in her office, and they're just really beautiful to look at. But the symbolism of the handprint over the mouth, like they're being silenced, it's just so, so perfect. It's a story that is so perfectly told.

[Jillian]

Right. And for this actor, defaro, to do it on the Emmy red carpet, it's a really important statement on, like, a very, very big platform.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

I cannot recommend Reservation Dogs enough. It's a really, really, really, really good show.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So Jen Murphy is the photographer. Right. And also, like the friends. Now she's become friends with Jermaine's family.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Because she joined the search. So she is using the fact that she's a photographer to help this cause as well. So she does a photo shoot with Vinyl Little Owl, and. And it's the same alley where Jermaine was last seen. Like, that's what's on the video at, like, midnight where she leaves with her ex. So it's really moving to see. It's also super sad that they have to do this at all.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

But they're doing it. And she says, like, the red handprint.

[Jen Murphy]

Really symbolizes our people being silenced, how we have always been looked at differently and that our people have not been heard in the same way that other people.

[Jillian]

People are.

[Jen Murphy]

That's a harsh reality. And it has been since the beginning of time, since colonization.

[Jillian]

We need to find ways to get people to give a shit. So when you have these. This, like, striking imagery and like, to have this actor on a very successful show in a tux and this thing, like, doing red carpet interviews and everyone's.

[Gina]

Going to ask him about it is huge.

[Jillian]

Yeah, it's a. It was a really big deal.

[Gina]

One of the things that stood out to me was when they were doing that photo shoot in the alley where Jermaine was last seen. The photo shoot shoot starts with a ceremony. Like, it looks like they brought, like, a carpet or something with them. And they're down and they're praying yeah. They have the ceremony that goes along. It's not just a cold photo shoot. It's like there's a whole ceremony involved in it. It's all about remembering the missing person very.

[Jillian]

And honoring and. And honoring the cause. And, like, it's very, very intentional.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

To me, that also feels like what we were talking about in that episode of Murder Has Two Faces, where it's like taking care of the person who you're asking to take this picture.

[Jillian]

Sure.

[Gina]

It's like the person who's taking the pict connected to the missing person.

[Jillian]

Right.

[Gina]

And doing this ceremony that is like, really speaking to the universe about this person before you're being asked to go, then do this photo shoot, essentially, to bring publicity is a really cool way to, like, take care of the loved ones, of the person.

[Jillian]

Right. About something so dark and awful.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

They shouldn't have to do this. So it's like this experience that they're all having for their own community because they're all indigenous.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So Detective Guy Baker, he's investigating the case. He took the case over, so he wasn't there at the very beginning. So he got the case 10 days after Jermaine disappeared.

[Gina]

He was in the Galapagos, wherever he was.

[Jillian]

And he admits, you know, just look.

[Brittany Williams]

At our national media. Gabby Petito goes missing. And look at the national exposure she got for a week or two for a Caucasian female. And how many missing Native American females went missing in that same time period and got nothing?

[Jillian]

Oh, there is absolutely a disparity in care and attention. Because he's white.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And so he's saying, like, well, yeah, white women. Like, he's here to confirm. Like, oh, I could tell you the numbers. Like, they're absolutely right.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

This sucks. Yes. So we go through the video footage, the last footage of Jermaine, and it's like a small group of people outside this bar. It's Jermaine, it's her ex and some other witnesses. And Jermaine is talking to a guy that we don't know about. It's not Jacob Wright. It's something just like a person. Again, it could be anyone. Like this. This ex is going to fly off the handle no matter what, because she's.

[Gina]

Standing there with the ex talking to this other guy. And it's Valinda and Danny, her aunts, who are being shown this surveillance video for the first time, which I think is kind of important because our host is asking them for their impressions. Like, we might actually get something from this.

[Jillian]

Yeah. You know, so, like, the Ex is standing behind Jermaine, like, trying to be intimidating to this other person. And, like, Jermaine introduces the two men, or so this is what it looks like. It looks like she's introducing them. And the ex is, like, still trying to be a tough guy. Like, rolling up his sleeves, arms crossed, not leaving them alone, like, go away. So I'm like, well, who are all these other people on camera? Like, they're witnesses. So who are they? Where are they? What do they know? What exactly was this conversation? Was the making threats or was he just trying to be a tough guy? Like, what's going on?

[Gina]

And this is where we learned.

[Detective Guy Baker]

Detective Baker says he spoke with several of the people seen on the video, but because this investigation is still active, he wouldn't say much about what he learned.

[Gina]

It's an open investigation and he can't tell us.

[Jillian]

Just when I was like, oh, you did what they say?

[Gina]

No, no, nothing.

[Jillian]

We can't know what information they gave.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Travel down the road.

[Gina]

Back again, girl. Everyday doses back. You've heard of Freddy with Benefits? This is like coffee with benefits. And my whole idea with why I drink it now is because I drink coffee every day. I love it. And if I can get more out of it, like, legit things I need, why wouldn't I do that?

[Jillian]

Yeah. So Everyday Dose has this classic coffee taste that everyone loves, right?

[Gina]

It's really delicious, but it doesn't have.

[Jillian]

The nasty side effects, like, no crash, no jitters. You're not feeling bloated after.

[Gina]

No. This coffee plus features 100% Arabica coffee and enhanced with functional ingredients for smooth energy, calm focus, gut health, and skin support. So, like she said, no crash, no jitters. It's just like, coffee plus extra good stuff to get you going.

[Jillian]

There's also collagen involved, and so collagen is less about quantity and more about consistency. So Everyday Dose makes it easy to support, like your skin, hair, nails, joints. Just have it in your coffee every day.

[Gina]

This is also not a one roast fits all situation. They've got the mild roast, the medium roast. It's really like, if you like it a little bit dark, darker, you go with the medium. If you like a bit lighter, you go with the mild.

[Jillian]

They have it all.

[Gina]

They got it all, fam. I love this stuff. So much and exciting news. You can now find Everyday Dose in Target stores across the country.

[Jillian]

Celebrate with a buy one, get one deal. Just buy any two Everyday Dose products at a Target store near you and they'll pay you back for one.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

So visit everydaydose.com obsessed for more details.

[Jillian]

There you go. And it's fancy because you said details, but it's not too fancy. You're just gonna have it every day.

[Gina]

It's so good. Just. It's normal.

[Guest/Contributor]

Be cool.

[Jillian]

So here's the situation with Jermaine and this ex, this Michael Defranska. He's white. They met when she was 14 and he was 16. His family moved across the street. And again, we just did this. And the murder of Emily Longley.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

How? It's like, it got really, really serious really, really fast. And they're both so young.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

And there were a lot of red flags. Like, Aunt Felinda found, like, explicit pictures.

[Jillian]

Sexually explicit photos of Jermaine.

[Gina]

She's 14 years old. And she takes it, says, like, you guys should not be doing this, and explicitly says, the piece of shit boyfriend, like, didn't even respond to that.

[Jillian]

Like, they found these photos of Jermaine on Jermaine. Like, she's sending nudes to this guy.

[Gina]

It's illegal. I mean, like, it is absolutely illegal for them to be doing this.

[Jillian]

Right. And it's also incredibly out of character for Jermaine. So her answer, like, this guy's a bad influence. Like, she didn't do this before.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

Entered the picture, and now she's doing this. Like, this is not cool.

[Gina]

No.

[Jillian]

And Jermaine's family did not approve of this relationship, which is never good for about a million reasons. But, like, how often do you hear about a family not approving and the teenagers being like, oh, okay, cool, you're right. Like, it's.

[Gina]

You know what? On second thought.

[Jillian]

Right. But then again, this train's never late. The ex starts getting violent and he starts hitting Jermaine.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

And so it was April 2013. It's two weeks before Jermaine's 18th birthday. And Valinda is the one that Jermaine calls, and she's like, you need to get down here. He hit me and it's bad.

[Detective Guy Baker]

According to court documents, Michael defrance, who was 19, admitted he assaulted Jermaine Germaine. The defendant made the following admissions, that he hit her three times, that he used his fist. Defrance pled guilty to partner family member assault.

[Gina]

He pleads guilty to partner slash family member assault. Said he wouldn't serve jail time, but he would be prohibited from owning a firearm.

[Jillian]

And so that's important. So he was 19, she was 17.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So, of course, this is all very, very hard for her family to hear and see and see in writing. Like, it Makes it such so official.

[Gina]

And it's also. I was just thinking about the family, like, when they can't make her leave. But like the day that Daisy tells me that her boyfriend beat her and then she goes back to him. All I'm saying is that it must have been absolutely devastating for the family because we then learn that, like, she's living with him and they're living in a camper on his family's property. And they know how violent this relationship is.

[Jillian]

And she's like, she's alone. It's so lonely.

[Gina]

She's alone. Right. Because a few months after this incident, Michael leaves town. He's gotten a job as a seasonal firefighter and she's like, alone.

[Jillian]

It's not cool when he does it. It was cool when Jermaine did it. It's not cool when the murderer.

[Gina]

We need you.

[Jillian]

No, we need you. But if you're a murderer, then.

[Gina]

No. Then go fudge yourself.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Steel cage match with Jillian.

[Jillian]

Can you imagine? I could never. Like, I wouldn't.

[Gina]

I know you think that, but when we get those boxing gloves on you and what murderer in the ring that hasn't been brought to justice? I think the badass is going to come out.

[Jillian]

But, like, don't you think his rage would come out on me too?

[Gina]

Yeah, but that would just bring out the rage in you more. Like.

[Guest/Contributor]

Oh, yeah.

[Jillian]

I would need big burly dudes who I trust. Yeah, I need like, Zach and Bob.

[Gina]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

Be able to, like, jump in and like, tackle this guy. Because he would hate me.

[Gina]

Because he would hate you for being a woman. But that would bring out. There would just be no. No contest.

[Jillian]

Feels like I'm in a dangerous situation.

[Gina]

You're absolutely in a dangerous situation, but you're in a no lose situation. You know what I mean? In a situation where it starts to go badly, we'll have Bob Ross.

[Jillian]

Can we just bring in a bear and have the bear take him out?

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And like, I will literally choose the bear and have the bear eat this guy if I need backup.

[Gina]

And we get to watch.

[Jillian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gina]

O right.

[Jillian]

I think that would be nice for everybody, especially the bear.

[Gina]

The bear gets.

[Jillian]

And then the bear, like, he's kind of.

[Gina]

He's kind of skinny.

[Jillian]

The bear, like, doesn't get tranquilized. The bear doesn't get killed. The bear just gets to be a bear.

[Gina]

The bear's no king of the village.

[Jillian]

Like, and then they just get to eat this guy.

[Gina]

The bear gets to be the grand marshal at next year's Pride March.

[Jillian]

Unless evil people taste bad to bears, then I don't want him to have, like, a. A disgusting snack or whatever. Considered that I want him or her to be satiated.

[Gina]

Okay, well, when they eat this, we'll take this one step at a time.

[Jillian]

Does anyone know if murderers taste bad to bears? I love like to know that. It's another question I have, because if. If not.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

If. If a murder still tastes just as delicious as anything else, then we should really be enlisting the bears to do a little bit more work.

[Gina]

I. I could. Jillian's Law. Like, I think this is going to be a great subplot for season two on Jillian's Law.

[Jillian]

If it's like, it makes their stomach hurt or if they're like, oh, like, I can't stomach the evil, then I don't want to.

[Gina]

I think on season. On season two, episode one of Jillian's Law, they're rolling in just vans full of bears. And the townspeople are a little confused at first.

[Jillian]

And it's not like, I'm gonna starve the bears so. That hungry.

[Gina]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Jillian]

And I think that's part of the fun torture for the evil people, because then they're like, when the bear feels like it, it'll eat you. And you don't know when it's coming. And so that's part of the psychological warfare.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Yeah. For the murderer.

[Gina]

I think we solved it.

[Jillian]

Okay, great.

[Gina]

I think we got this.

[Jillian]

Ex did it.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian]

So, like, he's out doing it, being a seasonal firefighter. And Jermaine was alone. She was lonely. So she starts vlogging. And, like, one of the quotes we.

[Gina]

Hear you said that all with, like, such calm and determination. This is how I know we might not even need the bears.

[Jillian]

I want the bears.

[Gina]

Your plan is better than mine because.

[Jillian]

I feel like if I gave them all this delicious food, they let me pet them.

[Gina]

Maybe, like, one ear. We do have to play by the rule. We have to remember that bears are always bears.

[Jillian]

Like, that's. That's what's going to kill me.

[Guest/Contributor]

I know.

[Jillian]

Not the rage, man.

[Gina]

Let's just go back to that guy being torn limb from limb.

[Jillian]

Okay, great. Yeah, we'll just leave, like, whenever the bears feel like it. And then you don't know when it's coming, and then you're just, like, psychological torture.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So she says this thing when she's vlogging. She goes, I don't do much. I'm just supposed to be a housewife. And I'm like, jermaine, you're so awesome.

[Gina]

What do you mean?

[Jillian]

This piece of shit left you and making. He's making you feel bad about yourself, and you're. He's not even here. Like, I hate him.

[Gina]

I hate him, too.

[Jillian]

So Aunt Belinda tells us, like, they were together, they were raising two boys, which is why she's not leaving. She's kids with this asshole. Like, I get it. But the violence continued and, like, she just keeps calling her aunts for help, and she. They're like, this was horrible. Horrible for us.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

And, you know, they say, but she stayed. Which is unfortunately what happens to a lot of victims of domestic violence. Like, they.

[Jillian]

Like you're saying when kids are involved.

[Gina]

Staying for the kids, hoping it's gonna fucking get better. Not necessarily even knowing what the answer is. Maybe she honestly loves the guy.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

So 2017, they break up for good and things do not get better for Jermaine. They get worse.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Detective Guy Baker]

In early 2018, just months before her disappearance, parents Jermaine and Michael had a heated custody battle over the boys. According to her family, Jermaine had limited resources. Michael DeFrance, it seemed, had more because.

[Jillian]

He had all the money for a lawyer and Jermaine didn't. His family's rich and connected.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

This really surprised me because I come from a world of divorce and I come from a world of, like, where the mother always gets the kids. Unless the mother's a real piece of shit.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Gina]

You know?

[Jillian]

Yeah. I think we've been told in documentaries and also, like, from listeners that that's usually the default. Like.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Gina]

And I'm not trying to imply that Jermaine is a piece of shit. I'm saying it's surprising because she clearly.

[Jillian]

Is not that it's like, the mother until proven otherwise.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Usually is. What we've been told is sort of the. The point of view of the court. I could be wrong.

[Gina]

The only thing that I can think of is that we knew that they were living in a trailer on his property, so maybe she didn't have stable housing or something. I don't know.

[Jillian]

I think they had the money for a really, like, yes.

[Gina]

Lawyer, I guess. So she gets visitation rights. Like, this is all seems crazy to me.

[Jillian]

So the cops have been looking into the ex and there were two search warrants on his property. But again, it's an open and active case, so they can't really share anything. Now, I have, like, a. Just a quick GP note that I just found, like, really, really quickly. It's just for, like, to I needed to figure out the timeline because I was getting really confused here. So October 2018, Jermaine is missing for three months. This is when the police searched the ex's property for the second time because we just learned there were two search warrants.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So the cops found guns, which he's not allowed to have because of that assault conviction in 2013 where he, like, wrote that he assaulted her. Like, he's very honest about it, so he didn't get any jail time, but, like, he couldn't have his precious guns. So now when they. In 2018, the second search found guns, and they're like, well, you're not supposed to do that because they call him, like, he's a. He's a prohibited person. That's what they call it. So he's found guilty of possession of a firearm when he's a prohibited person, and three counts of a false statement during a firearms transaction. So he's like, lying to get the guns.

[Gina]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

Because he knew he wasn't supposed to have them.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

But then in 2024, those firearms charges were overturned because basically the decision that came down from the court, they were basically like, well, that 2013 thing doesn't count as domestic violence. They said that it, like, was a domestic violence. That enough for him to be considered a prohibitive person.

[Gina]

So then, like, he should have been allowed to have guns the whole time because he didn't hit her hard enough.

[Jillian]

Right. So in 2023, they were like, the court were like, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. He should not be able to have these guns. Like, we're upholding that charge.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Then in 2024, it was overturned. Like, this is what the court's wasting their fucking time on.

[Gina]

And so, like, retroactively saying, no, it's fine, he's.

[Jillian]

He's fine. And the charges were overturned because they deemed it, like, not domestic violence enough.

[Gina]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

For their liking. This is what we're wasting the court its time with, going back and forth about this.

[Gina]

Well, and then meanwhile, we learn that these search warrants that they got on his property included cadaver dogs. So, like, they think they're looking for a body on his property, meanwhile, he's raising their children.

[Jillian]

Raising their children.

[Gina]

That is what is like, also. So terror. He killed her. Very likely he killed her and is raising their kids.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And like, all these searches are happening and nothing. They're getting zero evidence. And it's like Jermaine has vanished into thin air. Like, they. They can't make sense of it. It's like, how is there nothing? It's so obviously like who else could it be?

[Gina]

Right?

[Jillian]

And she didn't fucking disappear herself. So it's him.

[Gina]

No, like we know that. Like he says he dropped her off at this place in downtown Missoula and then for the rest of the night her cell phone is pinging in his fucking backyard.

[Jillian]

Right.

[Gina]

We know where she, she's in like the problem is he was able to hide her in an area in that vast million acre wilderness that only he's going to be able to lead us to.

[Jillian]

Right. And probably had help. Help?

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

From his rich connected parents.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So let's talk about Jermaine's phone. It last pinged in Everohill and was active between 2am and 10am after Jermaine was seen on the security camera. Right. So this is where the ex was living. And in his first statement to police, he says he dropped Jermaine off in Missoula at 1am Jermaine had her phone with her?

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And the cops are like, well that's interesting. So why was her phone active in Everohill? And this is when he changes his story. He's like, oh no, no, no, wait, sorry, did I say she had it? No, no, I had her phone. Right now that I'm thinking about it, I had her phone.

[Jen Murphy]

In a subse. He provided a statement that she left her cell phone and he attempted to go through her cell phone and he was unable to get into her cell phone.

[Detective Guy Baker]

What he said he did next surprised Detective Guy Baker, DeFrance admitted that two days after he last saw Jermaine, he threw her phone away.

[Gina]

Two days later, he throws her phone away in Idaho. At this point he's a long haul trucker and he threw her phone away in Idaho at mile marker 94 on Highway 12.

[Jillian]

So wait a second.

[Gina]

But there's no reason, he gives no reason for why he did that.

[Jillian]

So the mother of your children also just like a person is missing for two days and you go drive to Idaho to throw her phone away.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

Why?

[Gina]

I mean, once again it makes no sense, but I guess in his mind he's thinking, no body, no crime, no charges. It doesn't matter what I say.

[Jillian]

And guess what? The area was searched. They didn't find the phone or anything else.

[Gina]

I mean, he's not telling the truth about where the phone is.

[Jillian]

But it like it's all very suspicious anyway. Like he's lying about the phone, like whether he had it or she had it. Then he says he threw it away. He's very specific about how and when and where, but nothing's in the area. Like, did he throw it away? Why would he throw it away? Why would he go to Idaho? Like, also, is he concerned that Jermaine's missing?

[Gina]

Well, but that's the other thing. Like, he's not even pretending to be sad that she's.

[Jillian]

Yeah, I haven't heard a word about that.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

He threw away her phone is the story.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

I mean, he did somehow, because we haven't found the phone.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

So the phone. Phone is gone somehow.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

But now he's lying about it. So he's admitting he got rid of the phone.

[Gina]

And it's one of those things where, like, the cops have to pretend that maybe he's telling the truth, even though everyone's like, this is a. Like, this makes no sense.

[Jillian]

And as we're, like, screaming about this, the lawyers are like, look, this is a very, very hard case, and the lawyers have one shot. They don't know where Jermaine is. There is not a lot of evidence. This is a very hard case to prosecute. And even so, that's why it's been over six years and. And charges haven't been filed yet, because they're like, we do this one time.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And if we do this prematurely, it's over.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Gina]

But then she just says that thing where she's like, I'm doing everything we can to put together a successful prosecution should we meet that crossroad. It is my belief that we are close to moving forward with this case. She's like, if we can get there. It's one of those things where, like, I felt like at this part, they were talking directly to the killer.

[Jillian]

Yes.

[Gina]

Like, be scared because we're almost there.

[Jillian]

But in the same breath, I think they're also talking to us because they're like, you know, it would be really helpful if someone who knows something came forward. And Guy Baker's personal phone number is on the billboard. His phone number is 406-396-3217.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Once again, that number is 406-396-3218. That's his personal phone number.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And they're using this. For lack of a better term, they're using this episode, like, as a commercial.

[Gina]

Of course, you know.

[Jillian]

So the family also chose the location of the billboard for a very specific reason.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

It's near where Jermaine's sons live also, who I think is the killer.

[Gina]

This made me so sad because it's Aunt Danny who says, I know that.

[Jen Murphy]

Michael would probably have to take that route to come to Missoula. And I thought, well, the boys might not be able to see her in person, but that picture will be there. And Jacob and Thomas could see their mother every time they drove by there.

[Gina]

And the kids will see their mother because she can't be with them. Now. That made me realize that the kids do not see. See her family. Right. Like that the kids have no relationship with Danny and Valinda. And that broke my heart. If you didn't kill her, why would you be keeping the kids away from the family? That doesn't make any sense.

[Jillian]

Exactly. He did it.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And you know, this is a tactic, putting the photos of the victims here. We will dive into this in Mr. And Mrs. Murder.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

But it's something that people do to, like, communicate with the killer that, like, we're not giving up.

[Gina]

Right.

[Jillian]

We know you did this. It's all. It's for the kids, too.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

But it's also a reminder every single day.

[Gina]

Yes.

[Jillian]

That, like, this isn't going away.

[Gina]

We see you.

[Jillian]

Like, I don't care that you're rich and white. Like, we got that. Like, we're going to. We're on 48 hours now. Like, we're going to do this. But it says, like, say her name. Jermaine Austin Charlo. Six years in June and still no answers. The website on the billboard is MMI w project.org go donate. I did.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

It's not just for Jermaine's case. It's for so many other cases. And then it says, jermaine, we will never stop until you are found. These are multiple billboards. Our voices will not be silenced. We are still here. How many must go missing until you start to listen? These are four different billboards, at least. Not to mention the famous one.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yes.

[Jillian]

That we saw. That's like the. The thumbnail to this episode at all.

[Gina]

And it's like, you know, we've got Belinda sobbing, just saying that she's going to search forever. We just did this. Well, we're doing this all the time. It's like people are just going to. This is their whole life now.

[Jillian]

And it ends. So go to that website, mmiwproject.org donate if you can. Or, like, share it, do whatever. But an Venda tells us this, like, really unbelievably moving thing. She says, so I have this gift. And she explains that when her family makes it to the other side, she knows it.

[Gina]

And they let her know.

[Jillian]

They let her know at, like, I I, like, totally believe in this.

[Gina]

Oh, totally.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian]

She explains that, like, when her grandmother passed away, she came and, like, said, like, I made. Like, I'm here, you know, Like, I'm safe. I made it. Her grandfather did the same thing.

[Valinda Morja]

And she said and had this dream and Jermaine was there. And she's like, I just wanted to tell you I found Grandma and Grandpa and I'm fine. And she gave me a hug and she turned to walk away. I said, jermaine. And she goes, what? I was like, where's your body? And she looked me dead in the eyes. She said, it's in Evaro. She's like, I love you, but I have to go.

[Jillian]

It's in Evero. She's like, I love you, but I have to go. And it's like, I just. I completely believe that that's the case. I know that she's in Evero. I know that this piece of shit did it. And it ends again, like. So I just gave you guys personal phone number. Yeah, here's another one, because we get on screen, text at the end if you have any information pertaining to Jermaine's disappearance, contact. This is the Missoula Police Department. Now, 406-552-6284. And let's get that piece of shit, because I will enlist the Bears.

[Gina]

Oh, my God. We did 48 hours. Where is Jermaine Charlo? I said, I don't really have anything else to say today.

[Jillian]

I know. Thank you, Katherine, for telling us about this episode and for all of your amazing work trying to get justice for the West Memphis Six. Thank you. You're the best.

[Gina]

I don't want to re traumatize anybody, but stay out of the bike lanes unless you're a bike. And if you're in a bike lane on a bike, obey the goddamn traffic.

[Jillian]

Rules and get the bike off the sidewalks.

[Gina]

That is insane. That is unacceptable. I think we did it.

[Jillian]

What?

[Guest/Contributor]

I know.

[Gina]

All right. We love you, fam.

[Jillian]

We love you.

[Gina]

All right, bye.

[Jillian]

Bye.