456: Ruby Red Handed

Summary

True Crime Obsessed — Episode 456: "Ruby Red Handed"

Release Date: September 23, 2025

Podcast Hosts: Jillian Pensavalle & Patrick Hinds
Documentary Discussed: Ruby Red Handed: Stealing America's Most Famous Pair of Shoes (Hulu)

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Episode Overview

In this lively and sass-filled episode, Jillian and Patrick recap the Hulu documentary “Ruby Red Handed,” which chronicles the 2005 theft—and 2024 recovery—of the legendary ruby slippers worn by Judy Garland in The Wizard of Oz. With trademark humor and pop culture flourishes, the hosts dig into the true crime, queer culture, museum mismanagement, the cultural significance of the slippers, and their jaw-dropping $28 million auction sale. The episode is rich with nostalgia, side tangents, and a consistent lament over the lack of openly gay voices in the documentary.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ruby Slippers as "America's Most Famous Shoes"

• Jillian and Patrick set the tone (01:42):
  The ruby slippers "are definitely the most famous shoes in the world" ([01:49]). The hosts marvel at their icon status—“Say you have the ruby slippers and everybody you meet is going to want to see the damn shoes.”
  • Quote: "I would classify them as the Holy Grail. That is the Rolls Royce. $18 million historic piece, part of our American culture." (Patrick, [01:57])

2. The Hulu Documentary — Initial Takes & Critique

• The hosts generally enjoy the documentary, praise its pacing and information, but lament the severe lack of queer voices, especially given The Wizard of Oz’s status as a gay-icon artifact.
  • Quote: “I was texting this morning and I’m like, the fatal flaw of this documentary, there’s not enough gays. There’s like no self-identified homosexuals in this.” (Patrick, [02:42])
  • Jillian: “We desperately need Jinkx Monsoon doing her Judy Garland from Snatch Game” ([02:46])

3. Grand Rapids & Judy Garland Festival

• Setting: The theft occurred in Grand Rapids, Minnesota (not Michigan) ([07:46]), hometown of Judy Garland. The town has turned Garland’s birthplace into a shrine, complete with a yearly festival and museum.
• The museum houses massive Wizard of Oz memorabilia; hosts riff on the collection’s cultural gravity and sometimes-kitschy charm ([08:42] – [09:16]).

4. Judy Garland’s Complicated Childhood

• The documentary paints an idyllic, sanitized account; Jillian delivers a corrective:
  • Quote: "Her mother was violently abusive, shoved Judy Garland into show business, was the first person to give her drugs… Like, that’s not the story we’re telling here. They want to tell the super cute one, but like, her mother was abusive in so many ways.” (Jillian, [12:34])
• The hosts wish for more nuance, as well as representation of queer cultural perspectives.

5. The Slippers: History & Cultural Impact

• The wizardry classic is discussed as fundamental to film and queer culture; the hosts geek out over trivia (the transition from sepia to color, different silent and animated adaptations) ([15:21] – [18:23]).
• Quote: "The impact of that imagery of going black and white into color has been used millions of times since then." (Jillian, [16:31])

6. The 2005 Theft: What Went Wrong?

Museum Security Failures:

• The shoes were loaned by collector Michael Shaw for the festival, placed in a display case with an unlocked plexiglass cover, and the alarm was disabled due to unruly children and “parental indifference” ([33:09]).
  • Quote: “They thought the best idea was to turn off the alarm. So not a parent in sight. And the museum thought the best idea was to disable the alarm instead of telling the kids and parents that what they’re doing is not allowed.” (Jillian, [33:24])
• Patrick and Jillian detail the fiasco: no nightly safe, no contract, no security, and incredulity that no one took basic precautions—even with a million-dollar artifact ([31:25], [32:29], [35:13]).

Insurance Shenanigans:

• Shaw had a $1M insurance policy and accepted an $800k payout. He surprisingly didn’t sue the museum, but the insurance company sued due to negligence ([37:42]–[39:02]).

7. Investigation — Local Police Out of Their Depth

• The local PD was unprepared; Grand Rapids eventually called in the FBI, who ran a sting on the suspects ([26:01], [52:33]).
• Quote: “The Grand Rapids cops are like, we might be just the tiniest bit out of our element here. We’re gonna call in the FBI for help.” (Jillian, [52:33])

8. The Underworld and the Sting Operation

• After a decade of dead ends and wild goose chases, things heat up in 2017:
  • A retired Secret Service agent tries to broker a reward for the slippers.
  • A middleman tries to ransom them for a $1 million reward (which didn't exist; the actual reward was $200k) ([51:29]).
• An undercover FBI operation in 2018 results in the retrieval of the slippers, after a dramatic meeting at an art gallery ([53:43]).

9. The True Thieves: Jerry and Terry

• After several false leads, the real thieves are revealed: two aging mobsters, Terry and Jerry—now both dead or on their deathbeds ([60:38]).
• Heist Recap: They smashed the case, took the slippers in 30 seconds, stashed them in a garage soffit and later buried them, all in Grand Rapids. The slippers sat in evidence for years after recovery ([61:10]–[57:52]).

10. The Auction and Modern Value

• By 2024, Shaw is allowed to re-purchase the slippers for the $800k insurance payout and auctions them off for $28 million ($32.5 million after fees), setting a world record for a piece of movie memorabilia ([63:09]–[64:06]).
  • Quote: “Ladies and gentlemen, the ruby slippers just sold for $28 million.” (Auctioneer, [64:06])
  • Hosts speculate the heist actually increased their value, and laugh that the new owner is probably Elton John or another (closeted) wealthy gay ([66:36]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Museum Negligence:
  “Everybody, including the guy who donated the slippers, is 100% at fault.” (Patrick, [34:38])
• On the Museum’s Security Plan:
  “If your child is running around a museum with million dollar artifacts in them, making the emergency alarm go off that many times, you’re the problem.” (Jillian, [34:15])
• On the Auction:
  “All bids in now… $28 million. Ladies and gentlemen, the ruby slippers just sold for 28 million.” (Auctioneer, [63:52])
• On Queer Culture and The Wizard of Oz:
  “I swear to God, it’s almost homophobic how few gays there are and by how few, I mean zero.” (Jillian, [10:12])
• On Memorabilia:
  “They say that this auction invented the word memorabilia. Like, that’s wild.” (Jillian, [43:27])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Start-of-Recap & Main Theme: [01:42]
• Hosts Critique Documentary's Lack of Queerness: [02:42]
• Judy Garland's Troubled Childhood: [12:34]
• Wizard of Oz Cultural Impact Discussion: [16:06]–[18:23]
• Theft Details & Security Failings: [31:25]–[35:13]
• Insurance Lawsuit & Payout: [37:42]–[39:02]
• Museum Director Disables the Alarm: [33:09]
• Discovery & FBI Sting: [52:33]–[54:27]
• True Thieves Revealed ("Terry and Jerry"): [60:38]–[61:16]
• Emotional Return & Auction: [63:09]–[64:40]
• Record-Setting Sale of the Slippers: [64:06]
• Speculation on the New Owner: [66:28]–[66:42]

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Final Thoughts & Episode Tone

Jillian and Patrick keep the mood light, irreverent, and unfiltered—as always. Their deep dives into Wizard of Oz lore, honest critiques of true crime documentaries, and recurring inside jokes (where’s Jinkx Monsoon??) maintain the signature TCO balance of comedy and empathy. They delight in nostalgia, lament the gaps in the documentary—especially the absence of LGBTQ+ perspectives—and wrap up with their excitement over the next episode, promising a candid chat about a high-school catfishing doc.

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If You Only Listen to Segments

• Cultural significance & Judy Garland critique: [12:34]–[18:23]
• Heist & Security breakdown: [31:25]–[39:02]
• Auction & modern value of the slippers: [63:09]–[64:40]

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Next up: "Unknown Number: The High School Catfish"
The hosts tease a heated conversation on the controversial doc and promise to ask tough questions.

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Summary prepared by:
Podcast Summarizer GPT — for your TL;DR true crime obsession

Transcript

[A]

My friend Adam is going on a cruise to Mexico with his mom, like, on Wednesday. Do you have any words of advice?

[B]

Don't go.

[A]

No.

[B]

Be safe. Have fun. Text me when you get home.

[A]

Adam, text her when you get home or we're going to worry. Hi. Julia Mazzavali.

[B]

Hi, Patrick Hines.

[A]

How's it going, girl?

[B]

It's going great. I wish this was a whole hell of a lot gayer, but here we are.

[A]

Okay, what do we have to tell them about first? And then we'll get into how not gay this is. Worry. We're gonna have plenty of fun, fam. It's just not gay.

[B]

No, we're. I mean, we're gay enough, but I'm just saying.

[A]

Join the Facebook group, my loves. It's the true crime obsessed podcast discussion group. It's so fun. It's so great. That's also where we go to let you know what's going on. But also the disky. We do that there. Everything we do in the Facebook group, we also do in the disky, just differently.

[B]

Yeah, we do more in the disky.

[A]

You do?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But the Facebook group is so fun.

[B]

Oh, it's still fun. But this. That has like. Like separate channels, you know?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? But no, yeah, you're right. Everything that we're talking about, it's all the same.

[A]

But it's also great. It's just really good. Tell me about the paints.

[B]

We have a Patreon, in case you didn't know. That's where we do.

[A]

Can you imagine someone's like, just finding out for the first time?

[B]

But maybe that's true. That happens all the time. You have to expect and consider that this is gonna be. It's always someone's first episode.

[A]

Yeah. Well, then to that person, we say welcome.

[B]

We say welcome and hello. And we say that on Patreon you have, like, ad free versions of the regular episodes, but then you also have. That's where we do our things that have multiple episodes. So we just did. Amy Bradley is missing on Netflix. We're doing Mr. And Mrs.

[A]

Murder.

[B]

We've done all the classic ones like the Jinx both seasons, all that stuff that have, like, you know, multiple episodes.

[A]

Mr. And Mrs. Murder. Really good.

[B]

Pretty crazy.

[A]

It's really fam. It's one of the craziest ones we've done. We also do drag bingo at the $5 level. It's so much fun. We do it every month.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, tell them what we're talking about.

[B]

This is called Ruby Red. Handed stealing America's most famous pair of shoes. It is on Hulu.

[A]

Ruby slippers are definitely the most famous shoes in the world. Let's open the bid at 1 million 550. Anybody? 2.424.

[B]

I mean, you can say you have.

[A]

A Rembrandt and people say that's nice. But you can say you have the ruby slippers and everybody you meet is going to want to see the damn shoes. $10 million. You want to just count by millions? That's fine with me. I mean, I would classify them as the Holy Grail. That is the Rolls Royce. $18 million historic piece, part of our American culture. They were stolen, stolen, stolen, stolen. 22 million. Anybody else said why? Why did they take them? I'd love to spit them in the eye. Fair warning, Now I'm at $25 million. The real gem behind all of this is the story of where they've been. This is a pretty good documentary. I like this. I was entertained. I learned a lot about Judy Garland. We were texting this morning and I'm like, the fatal flaw of this documentary, there's not enough gays. There's like no self identified homosexuals in this.

[B]

We desperately need Jinx Monsoon.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Doing her Judy Garland and Snatch Game. If you haven't seen it, it's perfect. Because she doesn't do wizard of Oz era Judy. Yeah, she's close. Is that my camera, please? Is she? You were so missed, Jinxy.

[A]

Imagine if she were an actual talking head as Judy Garland in episodes.

[B]

But I would love her as Jinx and then like if she slips into it once or twice. But I think she would be. I think her voice, or a voice like hers was very, very missed here.

[A]

Absolute listen. I really liked it. We're going to learn a lot. And actually I knew this story because other podcasts have covered the theft of the shoes. But. But I did not know the resolution. And the resolution is. Because the resolution only happened in 2024.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we're going to get there. Like, this really has a very interesting ending.

[B]

We get a very long coming up on and I just want to say one thing where so some guy is like Rembrandt and people are like, oh, that's nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You say you have the ruby slippers. Everyone's going to want to see the damn shoes. And I just have. Truer words have never been spoken. It is the perfect culmination of why this captivated so many people. Like this case in particular the wizard of Oz. Like Rembrandt Memorandum the fucking shoes, man.

[A]

Also, we learn a Rembrandt does get stolen in this, and they find out years later that it's a fake. I'm obsessed. But, like, the wizard of Oz is, so it's not really my thing, but, like, it is. I know. And it's such a piece of American culture.

[B]

Yeah. It was very big in my house. It's my mom's favorite movie. I was the Wicked Witch for Halloween several years when I was a child.

[A]

Tell them every. She's texted me a bunch of pictures this morning. They are so cute. But you have to tell them what you told everybody.

[B]

So my thing was that I wanted. I swear to God, this is true. I mean, I have the pictures to prove it. So you can call me a liar.

[A]

But, like, no one thinks you're lying.

[B]

But I wanted to look like the Wicked Witch, but I wanted everyone to know that I was, like, nice and good.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So I was wearing. And it really. This is where having an Italian seamstress grandmother, like, really came in handy, because I would just be like, I want to look like that. She'd be like, okay. Like, when I was like, I want to be a stegosaurus. She was like, cool. And then made me a stegosaurus. Green and purple. Pre Barney, by the way. That was not a Barney thing. So three Halloweens, I think I was the Wicked Witch. But I had. Everyone had to know that I just wanted, like, I wanted the all black aesthetic, but I wanted everyone to know that I was, like, a good witch.

[A]

Down to the green face. Like, you had the green face and everything.

[B]

Yeah, for one of them, I had a green face. And in the photo, it's very faded. That must have been at the end of the day.

[A]

Yeah, you do look a little tired in the picture. Like, it was the end of the trick or treating.

[B]

There's one where I have, like, a ribbon around my neck. Like, I must have won some contest. Then when I was going through the old photo albums, I was like, oh, there I am as Peter Pan. Like, all of this is just like, check. Tick, tick, tick.

[A]

The only cool story for costumes we have in our family is that Steve's mom, Judy, made a lion costume for Steve and Ben.

[B]

Oh, you've told this. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

When they were little kids. And then now it's been handed down to all the kids. So we have a picture of, like, Steve in it when he was a kid and Daisy wearing it when she was a kid. And, like, all of the Tipton siblings have worn it when they Were. And the pictures exist of them as kids and their kids wearing the same costume.

[B]

You have to keep it preserved somehow. Like, where does it live?

[A]

Somehow Judy does. Judy can do anything. Like, Judy really is good at this stuff. But it's also made well, you know what I mean?

[B]

Look, that's half the battle.

[A]

Remember when your parents were almost killed by a serial killer?

[B]

I do.

[A]

I was thinking about that today when I saw a picture of your dad. I was like, that guy almost didn't.

[B]

Live, like, several years prior.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[B]

It is very crazy. If you don't know that story. It's a good one.

[A]

It's a good one. The Son of Sam almost got your mom and dad.

[B]

Yeah. They were sitting in a spot where people were like, immediately after they were sitting in the spot.

[A]

It's so crazy.

[B]

It's really crazy. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

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[A]

So we're in Grand Rapids, Minnesota, June 2018.

[B]

Not Michigan. Don't get it twisted.

[A]

They really want us to know. It is Grand Rapids, Minnesote, not Michigan. Common mistake. And I said, boy, oh boy, did Judy Garland put this goddamn place on the map.

[B]

So did Bob Stein. Bob. Sergeant Bob Stein said that as well.

[A]

Bob Stein, we're the. He's the police detective who catches the case, like initially. He really wants us to know that when he was grow. Growing up, Grand Rapids was a very quiet town. Grand Rapids now is more hustle and bustle. The traffic drives me up the wall. Now the traffic is out of hand. We are told this as we see an aerial shot of four cars on the road.

[B]

And there are 10,000 people who live there.

[A]

We're told.

[B]

So it's like, I see what you're doing.

[A]

The traffic is okay. It's not that bad.

[B]

They want to have fun today with this editing.

[A]

Yeah, but Judy Garland, do you want.

[B]

To have fun today? I do. I'm sure as hell trying. So they have this like Judy Garland historic house because she's from there. Do you remember the Kings of Tupelo episode?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About Elvis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is like that. Only Judy Garland, but specifically the wizard of Oz. This.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's all. It's very wizard of Oz specific.

[A]

It is. And I. I learned so much about the Judy Garland house and to see it is pretty amazing.

[B]

So it's not just like the townspeople, but other famous people like Pierce Brinkot. He means Bronson Pinchot from Perfect Strangers and the First Wives Club.

[A]

I looked as a Bronson Bronson picture is amazing. If you're not following him on TikTok and Instagram, you should be. His TikTok is great. He's very smart. He like talks about smart things. He look. Looks great. Like, I love this guy.

[B]

Great.

[A]

He was also in. What's the Eddie Murphy one?

[B]

I don't know. I'm only going to talk about the first Watch Club.

[A]

Okay. Okay, fair enough. He was in the cop 1.

[B]

The Beverly Hills Cop.

[A]

Beverly Hills Cop. And apparently on Bronson Pinchot's first day on set and his first scene with Eddie Murphy, they couldn't get through it because Bronson Pinchot was so funny that Eddie Murphy was like falling out I see.

[B]

Look at this base.

[A]

Yeah. I was wondering how much something like this went for.

[B]

$130,000.

[A]

Get the out of here. Now. I cannot eat serious because.

[B]

Because it's very important piece. I love that.

[A]

Bronson Pinchot is like. He's like a really unsung, like, great comedic actor, I think.

[B]

And this guy with his full chest calls him Pierce Brinka.

[A]

I know.

[B]

With all the confidence in the world.

[A]

I looked up this story. Apparently, Bronson Pinchot was the grand marshal of Oz estravaganza 2016. That's what brought him to town.

[B]

Why don't we have at least a drag queen here? Ostravaganza eleganza.

[A]

I mean, I swear to God, it's almost homophobic how few gays there are and by how few gays mean zero.

[B]

Except what they talk about. Ones that. I mean, I don't mean to assign anybody anything, but I think maybe some people they talk about from the past, but I don't know.

[A]

We don't know. And I told you I was going to try to not be insufferable about it, but you're being insufferable about it in the best possible way, so I'm thrilled. What I mean to say is thank you for letting us talk about this.

[B]

Why wouldn't I? I don't. I don't make the rules.

[A]

I. I just. I'm glad to mention that there's no gays here.

[B]

Not a one.

[A]

Well, we meet Maria Oz. We'll get into that in a second. Awesome. She's the filmmaker here. She important thing to note is that there's two time periods in which this documentary is being made. She really did all of her filming in 2018 when she became obsessed with the story of the missing ruby slippers. And then we get the end of it in 2024 when there's a resolution. And that's a pretty cool thing about this documentary, I think.

[B]

Yeah. So let's talk about this Judy Garland Festival.

[A]

The Judy Garland Festival began 40 years ago in 1979. One of the great pleasures of coming to this festival is to be with people who sit there and want to be reminded of the joy of Judy Garland.

[B]

It started in 1979. There's a picture of Margaret Hamilton, the original Wicked Witch, going there.

[A]

It's amazing. And it was crazy to me to think that Judy Garland was long dead at that point. I forget how young Judy Garland died.

[B]

Do you know she got severely injured? Margaret Hamilton with the fire?

[A]

I didn't. Because her makeup was made of copper and so the fire, like, burned her skin.

[B]

And also, I don't know if we're conflating both stories, but the man who played the Tin Man. I'm so sorry, his name is escaping me. He's super, super famous. He also got very sick from the paint.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, the silver paint. My, like, lead in it or something. Horrifying.

[A]

The. Didn't they have, like, three directors? It was like a kind of a nightmare to make that movie.

[B]

Yeah. Look, let's get into it for a second, because the Judy Garland story, they tell us kind of. Not really. They sugarcoat the F out of this because they say her family moved to Grand Rapids in 1914. They ran the local movie theater. She was born Frances Ethel Gum. She had two older sisters. They lived in this house that they've now, like, preserved and, you know, like, restored from 1914 to 1926. And everyone in the family, quote, was involved in performing. Judy Garland. I'm sorry. Judy Garland would go on to call her own mother the real Wicked Witch.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Her mother was violently abusive, shoved Judy Garland into show business, was the first person to give her drugs.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

As a teenager. Like, that's not the story we're telling here. They want to tell the super cute one, but, like, her mother was abusive in so many ways. Her mother never defended her against the studios. Let the studios, like, be horribly abusive to her teenage daughter. So when it's like, oh, my God, like, this cute version of Judy Garland's childhood, I'm like, where? Jinx, where are you?

[A]

You're right.

[B]

Like, what is that? What does that mean where it's like, I need to talk to a gay person. Like, I just, like.

[A]

Cause it does feel like this documentary is made by the Chamber of Commerce of this town. They just want you to think that it. Cause I'm like, oh, my goodness, what an idyllic childhood.

[B]

She had a miserable childhood.

[A]

Oh, that's so sad.

[B]

It's heartbreaking. But, like. Like, let's hear the cute version. So the cute version is that Judy Garland started performing of her own volition at two and a half years old. Like, please.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

The story goes, she sang Jingle Bells.

[A]

At her dad's theater one Christmas, and the audience was just awestruck. She kept singing it over and over, and they said, baby, get off. They yelled from the wings. And she said, but I like it. Her dad had to throw her over his shoulder and take her off. She, like, wouldn't get off the scene.

[B]

So much so that people were like, get that child, that literal toddler, off the stage. And she's like, but I like it.

[A]

But I love this ending.

[B]

The rest is very, very dark. Convolute.

[A]

Think she was singing the barber version. Jingle bells, jjangle bell all the gays are singing along with me.

[B]

She's also a time traveler.

[A]

How did you know about that?

[B]

I know. Everybody knows about that. So Grand Rapids, Minnesota, has the largest Judy slash Oz collection in the world.

[A]

It's kind of amazing. They've got, like, one of the wicked witches hats. They've got a spear from the part of the movie where they're mean to Dorothy.

[B]

I can't.

[A]

They've got the carriage from the Rainbow Horse scene, which I didn't know about.

[B]

They call it a winkie spear. I didn't know it was called that. They have Dorothy's dress. What do you mean? You don't know? That's a horse of a different color. That's like.

[A]

Is that from the wizard of. You gotta be nicer to me about all this.

[B]

When was the last time you watched the wizard of Oz?

[A]

Probably when I was like, I don't know. A long time ago.

[B]

Does it not, like, mean anything to you?

[A]

Not really. So here's the problem. I was just talking to somebody about this last night. Because my mom is gay. I don't have a lot of, like, the gay things that, like, they clung to when they were little kids to, like, feel seen. Because I had a lesbian for that. So I missed out on a lot of, like, the formative gay shit.

[B]

I want to hear from the lesbians who are like, excuse you.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Born and raised on the wizard of Oz.

[A]

I know you also had a real childhood. And I didn't. You know what I mean? So I didn't. I don't know. We would watch it, but it was also very long. I remember being a little bit bored. Gosh, am I going to gay hell for this?

[B]

A little bit. Okay, maybe. So first, like, the book came out, which is very, very different from the movie. Most people don't know that the 1939.

[A]

Film was not the first film adaptation of the wizard of Oz. It was actually made as a silent film in 1910. It's a silent film. First an animated film, and finally, in 1939, this major musical motion picture that.

[B]

We know today, the wizard of Oz first was a silent film in 1910.

[A]

Which I didn't know. And we see a clip of it. Look, I'm like. I've said I'm a baby here. I'm Seeing all this for the first time, I was so excited to know the history of the wizard of Oz. So interesting.

[B]

And then it was an animated film, and then the 1939 version. This is what we were talking about in some episode we just recorded that I was like, I really want to slow down on. Because my, like, film nerd.

[A]

Yeah. Because we record, like, 10 episodes a week, so we can't remember.

[B]

I have no idea what it was or what we were talking about, but it wasn't the first film to be in color. But the scene of going from black and white to color. Yeah, I'm getting chills. Talking about. I know it can't be overstated how important it was to culture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, like, it's a fantastical, wonderful thing to see at that time. Right.

[A]

You just imagine it's movie magic.

[B]

People would cheer in the movie theater when it happened. But the impact of that imagery of going black and white into color has been used millions of times since then. Like, think about, like, poems, lyrics, dialogue in movies. Like, so many references. Like, how many times have you heard a lyric or a piece of dialogue be like, everything was black and white, but then I met you, and it's color. Or sometimes they'll even say, like, Technicolor, which is even more clear. Like. Like, think about the importance of that. Like, every time you hear from black and white into color, it's stemming from the wizard of Oz. That's really important.

[A]

It's really amazing. And, like, there's an account on TikTok that is all about, like, factoids about the wizard of Oz. And I just remember seeing this once that the way they shot that was they painted everything in the house to be that sepia tone. And they had a Judy Garland body double going to open it. They painted her body that sepia color, and they painted the dress that sepia color.

[B]

It's like, I'm getting.

[A]

And then it cuts away and then Dorothy, like, that looks like it's the same person becoming color, but it's actually Judy Garland in the full color dress. Like, it's that movie magic that is so simple that seems like it would be so hard.

[B]

And see. And now everything is like, it's kind of hard. I don't mean to be an asshole about it, but, like, I know there's been a conversation of, like, it's kind of hard to see anything original now. Everything's a remake, everything's a this. But like, in 1939, no one had seen, like, well, we have color. Like, movies that are in Color. This is not the first one. But to like and what it meant for Dorothy in the movie, because I know it's different in the book, but in the movie for her to be like lost and then like everything is in black and white and she opens the door and it's this like wonderfully colorful land, like blew people's minds. And we're still referencing it today. And I'm sure you probably don't even, like, people don't even know there when they're listening to a song or they see that piece of dialogue, like. But that's what it comes from, I think. It's so beautiful and cool and like universal and like connecting all of us.

[A]

You were like a film minor in college, right?

[B]

Yeah, I had like what they call it, like a concentration and fill, but I guess a minor.

[A]

Yeah. That's so cool.

[B]

I loved it. I loved it. Travel down the road.

[A]

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[A]

That is crazy.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Are you kidding with this? I sit by this 86%.

[A]

Do you hear my joke? I sit by it, y'. All.

[B]

Cute.

[A]

We're now in a cafe with some young employee just singing over the rainbow like Judy Garland.

[B]

I can do it somewhere over the rainbow, way up high. She is happy to do it.

[A]

It's a cafe full of people.

[B]

You see the people behind her online looking back a little, and I'm like, you. Hey, Toto, you're in fake Kansas now.

[A]

Now we're going to talk about Michael Shav, collector. Because what we learned a little while ago was that it was during the 2005 Judy Garland Festival in Grand Rapids that the shoes got stolen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And they were worth. They were like appraised, like a million dollars, which I think is way undervalued. And now we meet Michael Shaw. He is the collector who owned the shoes that lent them to the town for many, many years. And then that was like the year that they got stolen.

[B]

And here's the thing. There are multiple pairs of these ruby slippers from the movie, but these were screen worn, which means she wore them in the movie. Which means they are by far the most valuable. She wore them the most in the movie.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's like when she's clicking her heels there' place like home. Like these are the ones.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

So he started loaning them to the museum in 1989 specifically to display during this festival.

[A]

Which is like, so nice of him to do.

[B]

Yeah. But between 1989 and 2005, he did it four times.

[A]

I guess that's true.

[B]

The fourth time they were stolen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so he explains that he got them in, like, really beautiful condition. He brought them around the country for years. Like he. He wasn't just like, staring at them in his own house. Like, he knew that people wanted to see them. He knew the importance of what they represented and how much they meant to people.

[A]

And he's like a collector. Like Maria, the director goes to his apartment.

[B]

I will never forget the day I met Michael Shaw. And knocking on the door of his apartment, opening the door. And it was like it was in a movie museum. He had one of Dorothy's dresses He had the wicked witch's hat. He had a Maltese falcon prop from Humphrey Bogart's 1941 film Noir. Noir.

[A]

A Maltese Falcon statue from the movie noir. Oh, I literally wrote, who cares? You care.

[B]

It's from the movie the Maltese Falcon in my noir class. And when I. This is one of the movies we studied.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Bogey as Sam Spade.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Mary Aster is one of the legendary femme fatales.

[A]

Is she, like, an Aster from the Gilded Age?

[B]

Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

Okay, that's. Those are the Astros I care about.

[B]

I don't know her full history, but it's like, the whole point about the Maltese Falcon is that, like, everyone is trying to get their hands on this, like, super old, like, golden falcon statue that's covered in all these jewels and bogeys there. And it's, like, amazing. But this guy, like, has the Maltese Falcon and I'm like, how do you have all of these iconic props?

[A]

We don't know his tricks. He's also got, like, the Ten Commandments.

[B]

Or whatever from the Ten Commandments.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Snooze. Boring.

[A]

I know. I couldn't agree more. But the slippers are obviously his prized possession, right?

[B]

Yeah. So four pairs were worn in the wizard of Oz. One pair belongs to a private collector. And we will know nothing more about.

[A]

That, and we'll never be told.

[B]

One pair is at the Academy of the Museum of Motion Pictures, where they should be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Another pair is at the Smithsonian. Also feels like a very appropriate place to be. And this pair that now used to be Michael's, but now they're missing, like. So those are the four pairs. So it's like a private collector, two museums and him. And he's the one who has that. There's no place like home. Like the screen worn, like, the most valuable.

[A]

And then we learned that when he was 7, he met Judy Garland.

[B]

So here's what. Here's how he, like, started to get all of these props. He says his family was in show business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He went to MGM's 25th anniversary celebration because MGM was, like, showing all their movies at the big MGM theater. Because this was, like, if you don't know, like part of the studio system.

[A]

Back in the day.

[B]

And so that's, like, where he saw the wizard of Oz for the first time. And Judy was there.

[A]

I mean, we believe the story.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He's got a house full of her. He has, like, the witch's hat, the dress, the shoes, the falcon, like, this guy, like, Gets his hands on a lot of stuff.

[A]

It's true. It's true. And now he talks about the theft, and he's just saying the ruby slippers and his in particular, are the most valuable piece of movie memorabilia in history. And now they're gone. And he's remarkably calm about it today. He is, yeah.

[B]

So the theft happens August 28, 20 2005, the day after Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. Woof. But this is when they start to use a lot of footage from the movie, which being, like, they're gone.

[A]

I'm always. Whenever that happens, I'm like, how did they pay for that?

[B]

They use it really sparingly. I wonder if it fell under fair use.

[A]

30 seconds.

[B]

Like an ABC News presentation. Like, ABC, probably.

[A]

They got the money.

[B]

Throw some money.

[A]

I guess that's true because they also do recreations, and their recreations are actually not bad.

[B]

Yeah, they have, like, a lot of, like, graphics and stuff, but we see.

[A]

Like, they filmed one scene of, like, Dorothy and the characters on the yellow brick road, and it's, like, filmed with Vaseline over the camera. And I'm like, that must have been a fun shooting day.

[B]

Yeah. Season one of Drag Race Filter. So we get this story, like, four different. Like, we. Oh, my God, you're going to fucking kill me. We, like, rush him on this. We get four different versions of the story.

[A]

Is that a film thing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So sorry, everyone. I'm talking directly to people who give a shit about this, which is. I understand. Nobody. I totally get it. But so we get it from, like, the phone call about telling this guy that they were stolen. We will go back and go into the details of this. But, like, the slippers are gone. They have to make that horrible phone call, Michael Shaw, telling him that they had been stolen.

[A]

We got one version where, like, the museum curator's like, I had to make the call to Michael Shaw. He wasn't really that upset. I became physically ill, and I was ill for at least three or four days. I couldn't eat.

[B]

I became physically ill. I couldn't eat. This guy has no sense of humor about this. He's like, these people have one job.

[A]

But nor should he, because, like, when we get the details on how this went down, it is insane and I think unexcusable.

[B]

I think every. I have questions for everybody, including Michael Shaw, which I don't know if that's allowed, but I do.

[A]

I think it's your podcast. You do whatever you want. Ask all the questions.

[B]

So Grand Rapids PD is on the case for what it's worth, because we're told by many people this was not a good investigation.

[A]

No, that's the other thing. I'm never surprised when they're like, in a case like this, it wasn't a good. Like, these local cops aren't prepared to, like, deal with investigating a theft of, like, a multimillion dollar piece of movie memorabilia.

[B]

Yeah, well, Gene Bennett is the original cop on the case. And he's like, well, what do you want me to do? Like, he goes, they put an unlocked piece of plexiglass over the shoes. And he's like, someday someone will talk. I' Are we done?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like, then we get these, like, crazy. There's a lot of local color in this, which I'm kind of grateful for. None of them gay.

[B]

Yeah. So it's like the thieves broken smash the plexiglass, which is useless. Not even smash proof, I guess.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then they were. They're like, one sequin was found at the scene and no fingerprints, which I.

[A]

Gotta say, the fact that a single sequin is found, it comes back at the end. I kind of love it. But we get these theories that, like, maybe. Maybe, like, the thief is storing it in the leg of a pink elephant, which is apparently a thing in this town. And we see.

[B]

We see one, some little girl is calling, being like, I know where the shoes are under the house.

[A]

Daisy, get off the phone, please. I know that's insane. That girl needs to be grounded.

[B]

Like, come on. People claiming they found them, but then it'll say, like, made in China on the souls. Like, come on.

[A]

Well, right, because, like, we get this whole thing where there's a house listed for sale and, like, somebody sees it in the background, which, honestly, we see people like, we see serial killers getting caught because their tail light went out. So I guess I could see something like that happening where it's like, oh, I forgot to put my $2 million stolen ruby slippers back in the bag before taking the picture to sell my house.

[B]

Yeah. Travel down the road.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Yes.

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[A]

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[A]

Yes, totally.

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[A]

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[A]

No. It's a perfectly social buzz. I love it.

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[A]

Yeah. Also, the flavors are insane. Blueberry breeze, which is my. My favorite. Peach iced tea, raspberry lemonade and salted watermelon.

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[B]

That's right. I'm going to own it.

[A]

Own it.

[B]

Own it.

[A]

Well, intensity is like a thing I have to care about now.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

But now you know. But now I know it's true.

[B]

This is when we kind of get back on track because the museum director.

[A]

Is like, look, we did offer precautionary measures. We asked U.S. bank in town to donate a safe. We could slip them out of the case, put them in the safe each night. And we asked Michael Shaw. He would not agree to having them handled every day.

[B]

Michael Shaw, the owner. Owner said no.

[A]

Now here's what makes me crazy. There is clearly no contract between the collector and the museum because the museum should not have allowed the shoes to be there without the provision that they are going to be under lock and key all night long.

[B]

So he said no because he didn't want them being touched so much.

[A]

Which I understand. Yes, but then they have to have. Look, this festival goes on for what, a week? Maybe two weeks.

[B]

No, three days.

[A]

There needs to be round the clock security for these slippers.

[B]

Now here's what I don't understand. I don't mean to be a dick. I don't know Michael Shaw's situation. The festival was three days. Like, he didn't want to keep an eye on them. He didn't want to hire someone to keep an eye on them. And Michael Shaw is like, well, I was told the place was secure. And I'm like, okay, there was. It was a miscommunication here and I don't know where it was. Yeah, because like, I don't know if he was told it was secure or if it was just his understanding. Because I'm like, why is this not, like, okay, if I'm going to lend you the slippers. Here's the protocol.

[A]

Here's the protocol.

[B]

And he doesn't say that. And then everyone is fucking shy. I just don't understand. Like, you've had these since the seventies. Like, what I. What am I missing?

[A]

For me, this is the absolute worst example of. We didn't lock the doors in our neighborhood until we were told we had to. It's like, everybody is so naive to think that no one's going to steal them because they're a piece of, like, American history and American culture and they're too loved to be stolen.

[B]

And it's like, her hometown. It's the museum.

[A]

I was texting with you earlier about, like, this is. Feels so much like the gardener art to me. Like, you know, like, the fact that it was so beloved and the fact that they're just going to take advantage of your naivete. Like, of course they're going to be stolen.

[B]

And it gets worse because the museum director tells us something insane.

[A]

This is. This makes you especially crazy.

[B]

May I take it?

[A]

Should I leave the room?

[B]

No.

[A]

Should I go outside?

[B]

It's okay. Because I will have to be stopped eventually.

[A]

Not by me, girl. I'm not doing that.

[B]

They had so many. I get it. It's a museum. I get it. Actually, I don't get it. I don't know why I say that. Scratch that. Remove it from the record. They had so many kids running around loose.

[A]

We'll cement alarm that, you know was on that door. Kelsh said, we shut it off. And I said, you shut the alarm off. We had children going out our emergency exit doors. He said we forgot to turn it back on.

[B]

They thought the best idea was to turn off the alarm. So not a parent in sight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the museum thought the best idea was to disable the alarm instead of telling the kids and parents that what they're doing is not allowed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I want to slow it down on this for a second.

[A]

Even slower. We got it. We're with you.

[B]

It's not just that the kids were running around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not just that the kids were running around and there were no parents stopping. It's not just that the kids were running around and there were no parents stopping them and the museum staff wasn't stepping in because God knows.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You'd have to deal with the obnoxious kids and their obnoxious parents. And in this situation, if you're like, I can't tell the kid to stop running in and out of the fucking emergency door making the alarm go off so often.

[A]

Can I just interrupt you to say?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I'm a pretty lenient parent. Like, when I'm with Daisy on the weekends and she's doing something that's not hurting anybody, that's kind of annoying. All time the let her do it. This is not one of those things. Like, this is beyond the pale.

[B]

Right. Because if you come for me about this, argue with the wall. But if your child is running around a museum with million dollar artifacts in them, making the emergency alarm go off that many times, you're the problem.

[A]

100%.

[B]

I don't care if it was the emergency exit at McDonald's, if it's happening so often that the museum staff is like, we should just turn it off. You're having a real fucking bad parenting day.

[A]

Yeah. Just to bring it back to the theft here. Everybody, including the guy who donated the slippers, is 100% at fault. Like, and even if it's. Forget how annoying it is to have that emergency exit alarm going off every two seconds to the point where they have to turn it off, it is an actual liability. And there should be like, there needs to have been a contract between the guy who donated it and the museum to protect everybody. And the idea that an emergency exit could be. Nobody understood a. How valuable the shoes be, how completely vulnerable they were to an attack like this. Right.

[B]

Like, I was just thinking. I was like, I'm sorry. So I'm following you have one of you have been trusted with one of the most valuable pop culture artifacts in history. Like, you can think this is all stupid, but that's a fact. Like, it's one of the most valuable pop culture things in history. You're going to let kids run wild, disable the alarm, and then forget to turn it back on when you leave.

[A]

But. And that's insane. This is just people who are not taking their. Their jobs seriously.

[B]

Because that also means, like, oh, so there's no, like, closing out protocol. Like, there's no checklist of things you could do. You just like, forgot.

[A]

But like, if you think about it even in the context of the Gardner museum, they stole $500 million worth of art because the museum didn't think that they needed to take their security protocols very seriously. It's like, it really is. The whole, like, we didn't lock our doors until we had. It's crazy.

[B]

Like, even the museum director's like, in hindsight, we should Add a camera. But, but I guess my question once again to Michael Shaw is like you said, this is your most prized possession.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even personally, like, like ignore the fact that it is a piece of culture and history in general, but like, it means a lot to him personally.

[A]

No, I, I couldn't agree more.

[B]

I'm just curious why he didn't do that. And we don't. No one asks or answers and we don't get that. Also, how did it get there? Did he like trust ups with the slippers?

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

Really?

[A]

What?

[B]

Because, because my thought is. Sorry, we're going back for a second. But, but my thought is, Michael, if you're going to get them there yourself, you could just hang around. It's a three day festival.

[A]

I know I've said this a thousand times, but it seems so simple that you just get an armed guard for three days.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

24 hours. Like, that does not cost that much money. Exactly.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Now we learn the emergency exit alarm is disabled. But also the motion detector. There's a motion detector that doesn't cover the entire space. As you come through the door up high, you would have to hug the wall from the time you entered the building through that door all the way to the door that led to where the slippers were kept. That gives me a clue that somebody had been in there and knew that line was up there. No doubt in my mind, somebody came. How would they know to hug the wall?

[B]

Gotta hug the wall. And I'm like, pretty useless censor. And they're telling us this because they're saying the person knew how to avoid the sensor. So someone had to have cased the joint.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So all of these people are useless. So now we meet Bob. Oh my God, the insurance broker. So the owner of the slippers, Michael shaw, had a $1 million policy on the slipper. So I'm sure the answer is, hey, Jillian, you dummy, he has a $1 million policy. It kind of doesn't matter. But then I'm like, but personally, you love them. It's your Most priced Possessed.

[A]

100%. He cares more about the slippers than the money.

[B]

He has to.

[A]

100%.

[B]

So why aren't.

[A]

And it's just everyone's just trusting each other. You know what I mean? Everyone's like, the museum is in 2005.

[B]

It's not 1905.

[A]

I know, but it's just like, I think the mindset was like, no one would dare. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, they would.

[A]

I know well, you and I know this shit. That you and I know after nine years of doing this.

[B]

Too much.

[A]

Truly. We can solve murders.

[B]

It's bad. We've gone around the bench. We've overcorrected.

[A]

Why has nobody made that sitcom, you and I solving murders?

[B]

Oh, God, I don't know. Because they already have a perfect show and it's called Columbo, and he solves them all.

[A]

Gillian Anderson and John Candy star.

[B]

Oh, my God. So, all right, there's a $1 million insurance policy on the slippers. And the policy was taken out in Grand Rapids, Minnesota. So he's doing it specifically, like, for this weekend.

[A]

This poor guy who just wishes he had never ever heard of the wizard of Oz, even though it's his favorite movie.

[B]

The insurance company, which held the policy on the shoes, argued they shouldn't have to cover the loss since the museum shut off the door alarm and allegedly didn't have functioning motion detectors or video surveillance. First of all, they sued the museum and the museum director personally, which made me laugh so hard, the way he's like, he sued me personally.

[A]

But wait, to be clear about that, the Mark, the guy who donated the slippers didn't sue the museum or anybody involved.

[B]

No, the insurance company doesn't wanna pay. Yeah, because they say rightly so. You disabled your own alarm.

[A]

I know, and I agree with that.

[B]

What are you calling me for?

[A]

But I do think it's kind of amazing that Mark, the guy who donated the slipp, not sue the museum that seems there's a. I don't know why he didn't sue. That.

[B]

I don't know. I guess because the insurance does pay Michael Shaw over $800,000.

[A]

Yeah. So I guess he's like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we're going to learn at some point in here, he paid, like, $2,500 for these slippers.

[B]

And another interesting question. I'm not victim blaming. I know. It's the idiots who let the kids run wild and, like, turn off the alarm. I get it. And the people who stole it are the only people to blame. Like, fine, except don't disable the alarm and then forget to turn it off. When you have million dollar artifacts, everyone.

[A]

Needs to be fired.

[B]

But my question is, like, he was just, like, trusting the Grand Rapids police to do this. Like, he didn't hire a private investigator.

[A]

That we hear of.

[B]

He didn't do any investigation of his own that we hear of. Again, it's his most prized possession.

[A]

It feels like you must just decide that they're Just gone forever.

[B]

I just have a lot of questions that are not being answered. I know one of them is, where is Jinx Monsoon? So let's talk more about the slips. Gilbert Adrian is one of the premier. Was one of the most premier costume designers of the time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And this is where we learn.

[A]

Many people don't realize that the slippers were originally silver. You see here it says silver shoes. And this is before they had changed them to ruby. So they had to experiment a Technicolor to find a shade of red that would photograph ruby. And they found a burgundy photograph, the beautiful ruby red. And so actually, they're the burgundy shoes.

[B]

So the slippers in the book were silver, but they were read in the film to take advantage of the new technology.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now they are also silver in Wicked on the stage version, and in the movie they are, because the ruby slipper design is copyrighted by mgm. So legally they can't.

[A]

No way.

[B]

So mgm, like, had this genius idea for the Technicolor and all that stuff and, like, made it. They really wanted them to pop. And that red, that burgundy maroon color really popped as red. And so they were like, this is ours forever.

[A]

That's so weird.

[B]

So legally they can't.

[A]

And it's funny because when you see the slippers themselves, they aren't that pretty because the color looks great on film. Well, I don't agree, because we see in the end, like, we. Well, we'll get there when we get there. But I think they look kind of different. Dingy and, like.

[B]

Yeah, there are.

[A]

There are millionaires. But. But the color looks. It's a burgundy color that, for whatever reason, under the lights, pops at, like, your hair does, you know? But, like, when you see them in real life, they don't glimmer like they do in the movie.

[B]

No. And they add, you know, that shot of her, like. And then she's like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm getting, like. I can't even talk about this movie without getting.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Yeah. So art memorabilia theft, we have to talk about for 15 minutes. We get. It happens all the time. You know, I love. Yeah. You know, especially, like, things from movies like the wizard of Oz.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the Saturday Night Fever dance floor.

[A]

We learn again about the FBA Art Crimes division. And I'm like, that's a dream job. Like, you get to, like, go after the Gardner art for your entire career. God, I would find it.

[B]

You would?

[A]

I don't know. It's in a Duncan somewhere. It's like In a Duncan and Back Bay.

[B]

They sent some mobsters downstairs.

[A]

You looked at me dead eyes and said, I would you believe that I would find it?

[B]

Yeah. Why wouldn't I believe that?

[A]

I don't know. Because even I said it with a little bit of, like, what I. I.

[B]

Yeah, I just don't think you'd be happy with what you found. You know what I mean?

[A]

You're totally right. I don't think it would be.

[B]

It's not like, in pristine condition anywhere.

[A]

I'm to the point now where I just want an answer. Yeah, get justice for Rembrandt is how I feel.

[B]

Whatever. So Ken Warner was a costumer, and he went to that big MGM auction in 1970 that Michael Shaw went to when they were selling every. Honestly, like, if it wasn't nailed down, and even if it was, they'd still sell it to you.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So he wanted the ruby slippers and other artifacts. And then Michael Shaw, the current owner, now, like, worked out a deal with him.

[A]

I was in the right place at the right time, and I worked out a deal with him for the shoes, the dress, the witch's hat, a few other things. When I saw the shoes, and I'm not lying to you, Maria, I started to cry.

[B]

It's reported that Shah was able to get his screen used pair of Judy's Rubies for just 2,500 bucks. 2,500 bucks.

[A]

And like, this Ken Warner guy. I mean, it's just beyond, like, this Ken Warner guy. Well, like, just to talk about him for a second, he seems to have been, like, a visionary who understood that there was value in these props. Just, he didn't know how much value because they sell everything. We learned that the Cowardly lion costume went for, like, $3 million.

[B]

But, like, the boat from the Love Boat or whatever.

[A]

No, from Showboat.

[B]

From Showboat, we sold for, like, 15 grand. Is that all?

[A]

Yeah, it seems like not a lot.

[B]

For like, a big boat.

[A]

I know, but I think that it was like, you know, back then. I think people loved the. But we just didn't memor. They say that this auction invented the word memorabilia. Like, that's wild. And I, you know, I've been think. Thinking about this a lot lately. I love things like, I love historical things like this. I think all the time. A couple of years ago, there was an online auction where handwritten letters by Harvey Milk came up for auction. And it. It was expensive, but not that expensive. And I didn't buy them. And I regret it to this day, really. And I'VE got a Google alert set for if they ever come back online. Like, I just love.

[B]

That was a full collection. That someone bought all of them or was it just like two letters?

[A]

It was like one letter. And he was talking about gay marriage like in like the 70s or something like that.

[B]

Do you know who bought it?

[A]

No, because it was like, it's like a private thing or whatever. But like, you know, there's this gay historian that, you know, I'm obsessed with. His name is Craig Rodwell and you can go to the New York Public Library and like he donated boxes and boxes and boxes of his shit. And like, you can just go through his personal letters. You can touch them with your hands. They don't even make you wear gloves.

[B]

Really.

[A]

They should, they should. But like you're touching like the stuff that like he. It was his stuff, so I get it. I understand why this memorabilia stuff is so. I think it's so fascinating.

[B]

It is. It totally is. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[A]

Quince is back. Look, fall is in full swing. And it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look.

[B]

Let me tell you something. You know I love fall. But something I'm going to tell you about is all year round. Please. That nylon crossbody bag, I love it. I wear it everywhere. It's the perfect size for like your phone, like a little makeup bag, your keys, whatever. I love this so much.

[A]

So look, I love a fall sweater. Think about their 100% Mongolian casual mirror starting at 50 bucks. They've also got washable silk tops and skirts and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. It's true. It is really reasonably priced.

[B]

Yeah. And they tell you too where it's like on other sites it would be this. But here on our site, you're paying makes it. It's like a little extra bonus. Oh, I'm getting something I love. Wait. And I'm saving X amount of money. I'm in.

[A]

Well, and look, they do that by partnering directly with ethical top tier factories and cutting out the middle. And they do this to deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands.

[B]

Yeah, it's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. Which you are, dear listener.

[A]

Fall. Get out there.

[B]

Don't ask me how I know. I just know.

[A]

You just know. So, fam. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quints.

[B]

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[A]

That's Q U I-N-C-E.com TCO to get free shipping and 365 day returns quints.com.

[B]

TCO so now we're taking a detour for no other reason other than I guess they just wanted to talk about this guy and the fact that he makes ruby slippers.

[A]

Oh yeah. We meet this guy, maybe gay, we don't know. He calls himself the Wicked Witch. And our director finds him because she finds a classified ad where he's looking to buy. She thinks he's trying to buy the ruby slippers on the, on the black market.

[B]

No, he creates high end replicas that are hard to tell apart from the real stuff. Slippers.

[A]

I started making them when I was probably 11 or 12. I have a hard time like picking a favorite character in the movie, but I think I most identify with the Wicked witch only because how badly she wanted the shoes.

[B]

He creates high end replicas that he.

[A]

Started doing when he was like 11 years old.

[B]

He sells them for three grand each.

[A]

And we're watching him do it and you can see how much he loves it.

[B]

Like he loves on his website today. Commissions are closed.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

Yeah, maybe. I think maybe at like the beginning of next year he'll start taking commissions for the following year.

[A]

But he's like, oh my God, find a thing you love to do and go do it.

[B]

And I was looking at them now and he's like, oh, you can get this version and this version. Or it's just like his website now is just like, here's all the cool stuff I've made.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which was very cool to look at. But he is, he is not. If you're interested. He is not making replicas anymore.

[A]

Well, and stay tuned, we'll come back to him in the end. He's got a pretty cool cap at the end of the story.

[B]

So now we have to talk about this random informant. He's in shadow. Everything about him, remember, reminded me of Sean Eckhart. Do you remember Sean Eckhart? He was one of the guys with Gillooly who orchestrated the attack on Nancy Kerrigan. And he wanted everyone to think he was this like espionage expert.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

He was always like, oh, my enemies. Like it's this guy.

[A]

Oh my.

[B]

It reminds me so much of him because he wants to meet Maria.

[A]

He's the guy that club Nancy Kerrigan.

[B]

He's the guy who was like hired. He like wanted, he wanted everyone to think he was Tiny Harding's bodyguard.

[A]

Right, right, right. Yeah.

[B]

And so. But anyway, this guy meets Maria in a hallway between a bar and an antique store. I'm like, ooh, spooky.

[A]

I'm like, are we getting. Is it getting gay up there?

[B]

No, it's certainly not. He's like, I run in very dangerous circles.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And of course the first thing I thought of was Jill Zarin. I run the fabulous circle of people. But he's like, oh, my trusted officers. It's very Shawn Eckhart. Everything's like, my associates, my espionage, my enemies. And he goes on and on, like, just walk away. It's going to get real. And I'm like, what are we doing?

[A]

What are we doing?

[B]

This could be a 40 minute episode.

[A]

We got. We skipped over it. But we got to talk about the fact that Maria's last name is Oz. A W E S. And like, I think that's kind of cool.

[B]

It is cool. She has to keep confirming what she loves doing. Not like Oz.

[A]

Not. It's not Oz, unfortunately.

[B]

Zero info from this guy. It's a total waste of time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then something kind of interesting finally happens. They're interviewing one of the cops and you hear the producer on the other side of the camera go like, oh, hey, can we. When we get back from break, like, can we talk about that call you got from that ex secret service guy?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the cops, like the what now?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And the producer's like, you know that search warrant? Turns out the production team found a search warrant that was supposed to be sealed but wasn't. Keep up the good work everybody.

[A]

This is unbelievable because we, we see the police guy being interviewed. Like, like his eyes go wide. This guy's got no poker face.

[B]

And so then we hear him whispering.

[A]

Okay, but. Well, cuz she did that thing where she like was told to turn the camera off and she didn't she down.

[B]

She's like, it's the off light. So he's like.

[A]

Which I would totally fall for. You know, I would fall for an off light any day.

[B]

So this is huge.

[A]

Patrick, turn on the off light. Yeah, that has to stay confidential button. We will give you the first information, give you the story when it happens. The court's messed up because we sealed that document. But I'll tell you, you cannot say anything because the FBI is huge in the natural. The second, the second we find this shoes. As long as you keep it quiet, we will call you first.

[B]

I'll give you the exclusive when we solve this bad boy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So here's what's going on.

[A]

Maria's a woman of her word. She keeps that. She keeps that secret.

[B]

Well, that's what a real journalist would do, right?

[A]

Well, because I'm like, wait, if he asked her to keep the secret, why are we learning about this now? Oh, there's two times timelines here, right?

[B]

So on July 11, 2017, this tip comes in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Michael Isabella calls and he's a retired Secret Service agent for Ronald Reagan. And he's asking about the award. Major boo. But like, Maria thinks that working as a Secret Service agent 30 years ago somehow makes him extremely credible in 2017. And I'm like, politics aside, I'm like, what? First of all, an asshole is an asshole. Is it like you could be a piece of shit no matter what job you have?

[A]

Although, if we're dealing in Republican presidents, I'd go back to Reagan over what we got any day.

[B]

We don't have to do this. It's a different time, honestly. But like, I'm like, 30 years can change a person for sure. But I'm like, so he was in the Secret Service that one time 30 years ago. And she's like, I believe every single word that comes out of this guy's mouth.

[A]

Well, I will say though, like, what we're learning here is that this guy has access to the shoes. He's got access to the slips.

[B]

Because he calls, he's like, what's the reward here? Like, what's going on with the reward?

[A]

Asking for. Just curious, is there those ruby slippers that went missing?

[B]

There's also. So some unknown middleman. And this is where we start to meet about 38 different people. Only one or two of them might be actually important and worth remembering. Correct. I mean, even in my notes, I was like another person.

[A]

No, I know. It took me like the second time watching it. It doesn't matter. The point is the shoes might be out there. And now the cops ask for proof of, like, before. If we're going to negotiate or talk with this all, send us photos. And they do. And the photos look good. Like, they look like these really could be the slippers.

[B]

And I also want to say one important note this. The million dollar reward is. They say it's long. There's only $200,000 from the insurance company because they gave $800,000 to Michael Shaw, the owner. So if someone's calling for the million dollar reward, that doesn't exist. Girl, you're getting 200 grand at most.

[A]

Because that's what we're told. We're told that this guy wants to do the right thing. He wants to get the shoes back, but he wants the reward money.

[B]

Right. So he only kind of wants to do the right thing.

[A]

Exactly. 100%. And this guy says on the phone to whoever he's talking to, 200 grand is not going to cut it for 200 grand. These shoes might go missing again for another 10 years. Or they might just get destroyed.

[B]

Right. And then they also want us to think that these guys calling the cops are mob guys. Like, the ever go to the cops to broker a deal?

[A]

I know. And, like, it gets a little convoluted. But we're also going to learn that these people who are reaching out with.

[B]

The slippers, the middleman with the slippers thought he was only dealing with the insurance company, but he was wrong.

[A]

They did not know they were talking to the FBI or Grand Rapids Police Department. They think that they're on the phone with the insurance people, who absolutely did not involve the cops or the FBI. They're just dealing bad guy to insurance guy. That is not what fudgeing happens. Because the FBI is here.

[B]

The FBI is here because the Grand Rapids cops are like, we might be just the t teeny tiniest bit out of our element here. We're going to call in the FBI for help.

[A]

We're going to call in the FBI, but they also call in the US Attorney from North Dakota, and they never explain why. They say there's a conflict of interest, so Grand Rapids, Minnesota, can't be involved. We're going to go to our neighbors to the north. We're going to Fargo to find this adorable guy, Matthew Greenlee, wearing a bow tie. I was like, he got dressed for this interview.

[B]

Talk about having no sense of humor.

[A]

No sense of humor. But you know what he did do? Remember we used to ask people to run the combs through their hairs?

[B]

He did.

[A]

He did that. And I love a bow tie on a man. I could not remember his name. Going forward, I call him Cute Prosecutor.

[B]

Okay, great. So this middleman guy is. Yeah, they're all talking to the feds, but no one knows that. And so they make a deal. The feds make a deal with these guys for $400,000. And it's all fake. It's a sting.

[A]

It's all. Thank you. I was going to talk about it for five minutes, but you nailed it.

[B]

It's a stink.

[A]

It's just a sting. The bad guys think they're bringing the slippers to meet with the insurance people. And when they get there.

[B]

So you're going to say it anyway. I wasted about 40 minutes talking about film bullshit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right, you're right, you're right. I was mostly doing it for me. My brain had to catch up. Moving on.

[B]

So it's 2018. It's the sting. The guy chose an art gallery for the meet up. The place is crawling with feds and agents and cops. He's got no idea.

[A]

It's like the guy that shows up is this kind of like, famous dirtbag attorney. He's like the middleman.

[B]

Joe Friedberg. He's Minnesota's most famous criminal defense attorney.

[A]

But, like, he doesn't know. This guy should be so much smarter, should be better. He thinks he's meeting with the insurance people. He was provided an actual cashier's check for $400,000. He actually left them while he went to the restroom. When he returned, the undercover FBI agents had been replaced by the actual detectives in the case. And they interviewed Mr. Friedberg. He gets up and goes to pee, leaves the slippers.

[B]

And the FBI's like, we almost took them right there.

[A]

Should we take them?

[B]

Like, should we just go?

[A]

Fucking guy.

[B]

A lesson, right? So we're like, okay, well, great. Like, who is the thief? I don't. We just are told that probably the thief is Kent Anderson, bro. Comedian Louis Anderson. And I'm like, no, Louie Anderson.

[A]

And we learned that Louis Anderson talks about this guy in his routine.

[B]

His, like, criminal. His criminal brother, the safe breaker or whatever. Because Kent Anderson is what they call a fence. He buys and sells stolen goods. And his lawyer is Joe, who, like, leaving everything on the table. Joe.

[A]

To go take a piss, right? And apparently this Anderson, Kent Anderson, is like a really big deal in the underground in Minnesota.

[B]

But then it's like, is he involved? Is he not? We'll never know. He died in 2007.

[A]

And they tell us that over and over again and over again. They're like, once again, we'll never know. He took his secrets to the grave.

[B]

And this is the first time I ask, why is this 10 hours long? And where is Jinx Monsoon?

[A]

I know. Or any. I'll take any gay at all.

[B]

Anybody. So yay, the shoes are real. Like, we know that the handoff worked.

[A]

I thought this was kind of cool because we meet this cool lady, Dawn Wallace from the FBI, and she's kind of explaining how they knew it was real because they remember she's with the Smithsonian and they have a pair of the slippers in their collection. And she said the first Thing she saw.

[B]

I see a clear bead that has been painted red. And it was this sort of eureka moment because I remember seeing those on the shoes in the museum's collection. We had spent time talking with customers, and they said that if the bead had come off during the filming and if they didn't have time to go get a new red bead, well, it would be fine. They would get a clear bead, paint it red.

[A]

We would grab clear ones and paint them and put them on. And that was one of the clues that Don was like, this was how we knew they were real.

[B]

Also, these idiots are. Were like. Wait, so there's, like, no rubies on them, right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, my God, these idiot thieves are. Think that, like, they've never. They don't know a gay person. They've never heard of Jinx Monsoon?

[B]

No. They hate gay people.

[A]

They hate the gays. They absolutely think that these are slippers made of rubies like that.

[B]

There's just two enormous rubies, essentially.

[A]

Two enormous. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

Girls. So at least we have them back, right? And so the FBI, we get this press conference, and the local cops are like, the FBI is taking all the credit for this. And I'm like, do they? Because we clearly hear the agent say that they work so closely with the cops in Grand Rapids. And I'm like, look, I know the trope. I totally get it. But she literally is like, we would not be here if not for the local cops.

[A]

And I'm like, the local cop is at the press conference. He grabs a reporter to be like, this is not what happened. This is not how this went down. I'm going to tell you everything later.

[B]

Fudgeing. Go again.

[A]

And then we cut to Michael the Collector, who has been now told by the FBI that the shoes have been found. And he goes, I mean, thank God the shoes were not destroyed, but heaven only knows how many feet went into that pair of shoes between then and 13 years later. Now, heaven only knows how many pairs of feet went into those shoes over 13 years, Michael.

[B]

Then hire someone to watch them then. No. Do you know what I mean? Like, I get. I get it. Yeah, I get that you're upset, but, like, I don't understand why there wasn't at least one piece of paper that's like, could you make sure that you don't disable the alarm and then forget to turn it on when you leave?

[A]

Like, in 2005, it would have cost $30 an hour to hire a security person to stand there. And. Sure. This didn't happen.

[B]

It's, like, one of the biggest. Whatever. So the shoes were stolen.

[A]

You can't go through all that again. I can't put you through it again. Please.

[B]

So the shoes were stolen 13 years ago, but since they don't know who stole them, the shoes are now sitting in an evidence locker at the FBI. They're not handed back to their owner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, why, like, doesn't everybody want to go home?

[A]

I know. Can we talk about the Rockwell heist for a second?

[B]

If we must.

[A]

I want to, because it's an art thing, and it's Norman Rockwell, and I love those two things.

[B]

Yeah. It doesn't relate to this at all, but, like, I'm happy to talk about it.

[A]

We take a quick detour because we learn about the Rockwell heist. This was an art heist that happened. Happened 200 miles away from where the slippers were stolen in 1978, the year of my birth. And basically, we learned that, like, it was a kind of a similar situation where this art gallery was doing this, like, huge opening for, like, Norman Rockwell, and they had all 332 of his Saturday Evening Post covers. They had some limited editions, but also original Norman Rockwell paintings. Like, I love this shit so much. And sometime before, like, they do this big opening. It goes great. It's. It's gorgeous. And then sometime before midnight, somebody breaks in and steals all of the most expensive Norman Rockwells and a fake Renoir.

[B]

They stole the seven most valuable original paintings and a Renoir for the road.

[A]

Which they then are. Renoir for the road. It's a Renoir. It's a Renoir roadie, right?

[B]

Yes. Road soda.

[A]

The look on. Did not think I was gonna get there.

[B]

I love a road soda Renoir. It's annoying to say.

[A]

It's very hard. But then I love that. We do learn that eventually all the art is returned, but, like, they. It in Philadelphia and Brazil.

[B]

But I'm like, wait, this gallery was showing a fake Renoir?

[A]

They didn't know. They. It was found out later after it was stolen, returned that it was.

[B]

But that's a big deal. It is a big deal to care about that part that they were tricked.

[A]

We've covered so many fake art documentaries. I want a fake. I want to buy a fake Renoir.

[B]

I. I promise you, you can get.

[A]

I've looked. You can't really find them.

[B]

Well, because no one wants to say that they're fake, Right?

[A]

I guess that's true. Steve, can we spend $500 million on a painting that may or may not be real? No, girl, I guess not. But this has nothing to do with anything. That these are not the people who then stole the results.

[B]

But they think that maybe Louie Anderson's brother was involved. But it doesn't matter. He was never charged and he's dead now. Like, what are we doing here?

[A]

But we do keep getting. We get Louie Anderson's brother's kid on the phone, and every time Maria's like, do you think your dad was involved? He's like, he absolutely left. He absolutely did it.

[B]

I'm like, okay.

[A]

He's like the kid of all the mob wives who just want to be connected to crime in any way. Or like the nephew of.

[B]

Desperate to be his dad for his dad to be the Zodiac.

[A]

That's exactly what I was just going to say. I know.

[B]

I know not. So anyway, this Joe the Middleman guy keeps coming up. That criminal defense lawyer who met the cops in the thing and literally handed them the stolen ruby slippers, so.

[A]

And did not get that $400,000 check because he had to go pee.

[B]

And then I'm like, but wait, now there's someone else I know. Terry John Martin. He's a retired mobster on his deathbed, complete with oxygen tanks.

[A]

The thing is, because now we learn, like, the whole end of this documentary is about who actually did it. We got them back. That's great. Who actually did it.

[B]

And.

[A]

And we learn, like, just to give it to you in, like, three minutes, we learn it was two men, both of them on their deathbeds now, both of them having been arrested and showing up to court in oxygen tanks. And basically, it's Terry and Jerry. And the only reason I know that is because that is also the name of my mother's ex girlfriend and her new wife.

[B]

Perfect Terry.

[A]

Terry and Jerry and these two fucking dingbats, to borrow a phrase, they get to the museum on the night of the heist, they break in, they smash the case, they get the slippers. They are out in literally 30 seconds.

[B]

So the unruly children were just a happy coincidence? 100% only happy for them.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Because everyone else is miserable.

[A]

But they're in the van making their getaway. They get pulled over. Jerry stuffs the ruby slippers down his pants. The cops try to search the van, but they don't have probable cause, so they can't.

[B]

And he's like, no, I don't give you consent to search.

[A]

No. And they speed off into the night. And this guy Jerry, we meet Jerry's Next door neighbor, Jerry, you cannot make it up. And Jerry the neighbor is like, Jerry the thief. He was such a nice guy. I really liked him. One day, the feds fucking swarm his house. This guy Jerry had had the slippers in his possession from 2005 until 2018 when they were recovered. He put them in his garage in the. In the soffit, like the eaves overhanging the outside of his garage for years. And then later buries them in his yard. He buried them in a clear Tupperware type container. They were there. They were right there in Grand Rapids the whole time. It was a local guy named Jerry hanging out with this guy named Terry. Happens to be the name of my mom's ex girlfriend and her new wife.

[B]

Oh my God. And so then, like, nothing happens to any of these guys because they're all dead or dying.

[A]

And that to me was the wildest part was that like, nobody really gets in trouble. We know who did it, we know how they did it. They show up to court with an oxygen tank, then die. But like, in the meantime, they barely. They don't get any jail time.

[B]

Yeah, like, like Jerry was going to plead guilty, but he died before he could. Then Mike, the former Secret Service guy, died four years after the slippers were returned. Never charged with anything. Joe, the criminal lawyer, returned the shoes, also dead, also never charged. Maintains he never did anything wrong.

[A]

Everyone fudgeing died.

[B]

Everyone's dead.

[A]

Why isn't this called the Curse of the Ruby Slippers?

[B]

Like, seriously though, because it would be too good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then, February 1, 2024, those shoes are returned to Michael Shaw. Technically, the insurance company owned the shoes, but they, quote, allowed him to buy them back for $800,000, which is their exact payout to him.

[A]

I think that Michael does the smart thing here. He takes them on like one last wor world tour.

[B]

Well, it is very emotional though. Like, once he gets him back, like it's been 20 years.

[A]

Like, this is how the documentary is good because Maria, the documentary filmmaker, is with him in 2024. So all of the footage of him until now is from 2018. We see him in 2024. He's aged like a hundred years, and he. He sees the slippers for the first time and he is sobbing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he decides to sell them. He decides to put them up for auction. And the people from the museum, they've raised a certain amount of money. They really want to bring this to home, to Minnesota. They think they've got a shot, but the bidding starts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

$1.5 million.

[B]

And the price is going up and up. 7 million. 8 million. 9 million. 10, 11, 12. And it just keeps going.

[A]

All bids in now. All bids. Fair warning. Fair warning. No cut bids, no other advances. Then do it. $28 million. Ladies and gentlemen, the ruby slippers just sold for 28 million.

[B]

They are sold for $28 million. A total of 32.5 million with the fees. Yeah, the previous record was Marilyn subway dress.

[A]

And my thing too is like part of the reason the slippers are so valuable is because of the story of them being stolen. Like it added so much value to the value of the slippers, which remember Michael bought for $2,500.

[B]

What do you think they would have gone for in an auction in 20, 24, 25 if they weren't stolen?

[A]

Like $2 million.

[B]

Do you think?

[A]

I think, I don't think they would have got. Well, no. You know what the difference would be?

[B]

What?

[A]

The movie, the movie Wicked, like the movie Wicked made, I think brought all of this back. Oh, and the other thing we didn't tell you about that gay guy who's making the shoes that you can't buy anymore. He found online Glinda's original wand from the movie and he bought it for $20,000. And he tells this whole story. But the thing is keeping something that historically important and expensive, I did not really plan for that and I just could not afford to keep it long term. Ended up selling for $400,000. You have to be able to keep it. Really. People are going to steal it.

[B]

That's why I'm shocked that you're even allowed to touch those Craig Rodwell pieces of paper because like oil on hand, like even if you just wash your hands, like you're still like it could really like deteriorate.

[A]

But he ends up selling, he bought it for 20 grand and turned around and sold it for, for $400,000. That's why he's not making shoes anymore.

[B]

No, but he said like when Ariana Grande was on the Drew Barrymore show, like that was it.

[A]

Yes. They brought it out to her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, that's it. That's the story. That's the story of the ruby slippers.

[B]

Yeah. So they're bad. Like someone has them and we don't know who has them, but someone bought them for what is a total of 32 and a half million.

[A]

It's funny because we, in the very end we see them being taken off the auction block and put into like a protected, locked, you know, like transport.

[B]

Gate where they always should have been.

[A]

Well, and locks. I cannot wait to hear the story about how they got swapped. That wasn't really them and you know what I mean?

[B]

I wonder if I'm not just saying this because a lot of people that we're talking about have now died, but I wonder if, like, if that's when we'll find out. Like, what's the protocol at a. With a big, big sale like this, at an auction? If it's like some old rich person and then they die in three years from now, like, will we be able to know that, like, they purchased it or. Or does it go for, like, eternity?

[A]

Who. Who knows?

[B]

Is it a secret forever and ever?

[A]

Because it'd be like, even if we did find out who it was, it'd be like Brian of Milwaukee with some.

[B]

Merrill lynch or whatever.

[A]

Totally. Some queen, you know. It's some gay guy. Elton John, someone. Oh, my God. It's probably Elton John.

[B]

Probably Elton John. 32 and a half mil. It's gotta be Elton.

[A]

Girl. We did. What's it called?

[B]

Ruby Red handed.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. That was a fun one.

[B]

It was fun. It was fun to be in that world for a little bit.

[A]

I do like it when film nerd Jillian comes out. I enjoy it.

[B]

Look, this is why I love talking about stuff like Mad Men. Like, I just love talking about stuff that people made and, like, how it makes you feel and then how it, like, seeps into culture and other conversations that you don't know about. Like, I just think that's so. It's so, like, brings us all together, you know?

[A]

Do you think Neil Patrick Harris has the 32 mil? Could it be him?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he has that. What was that show? Big Bang? What was it?

[A]

How I met your mother. How I met your mother.

[B]

Yay. That was a huge hit, right?

[A]

Maybe he's got him some gay. It's. Hello, Totally fam. Don't forget to join the Facebook group. True crime obsessed podcast discussion group. Get in there, there. Make friends. Hang out with us. Join us on the Patreon. Right now, we're about to. We're recording our first episode of Mr. And Mrs. Murder. It is really, really. This is a well done doc.

[B]

Yeah. And it just. Very good at the cliffhangers.

[A]

Very good at the cliffhangers. Click the link in the show notes or patreon.com obsessed what are we doing next? Girl?

[B]

Okay, everyone get ready.

[A]

Oh, this is it.

[B]

Pull over.

[A]

Oh, my God, we're here.

[B]

Unknown number, the high school catfish. There's a big conversation happening around this stock. We will get into all of it, I assure you.

[A]

I. I don't think I've. It's long time since I've seen people request a documentary this much.

[B]

It's been. Look. And everyone's talking about it. I've been in the discord talking about it. I'm getting DMS about what we need to include.

[A]

It's our dear friend sky, and I will not shy away. We will talk about whatever. And if we need to ask her some questions, we will.

[B]

I have a lot.

[A]

Okay. You want to. You want to ask her?

[B]

I would love to.

[A]

Okay, we'll do it then.

[B]

Yeah, I would love to. Because I'm. I'm. The whole thing really upset me how it was done.

[A]

Really.

[B]

If I'm going to be totally honest with you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And I'll. You know, like, obviously I haven't watched.

[A]

It yet, so I don't know.

[B]

Sure. Obviously choices were made. I. I find it. I'm. It upset me how. How certain things were handled.

[A]

The one thing I know about sky is that she's down for the conversation. Okay. You know what I mean?

[B]

I would love. Because I really have a lot of questions.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

About why she chose to do or not do certain things.

[A]

Okay. And I have a. Watch it. So now I'm very excited.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So that's coming. It's all. It's gonna be a hot one.

[B]

It's gonna be big. I would. All right. Love you guys.

[A]

We love you. Bye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

You are the ugliest person I've ever seen.

[B]

A high school girl in Michigan was cyberbullied for more than a year.

[A]

And who turned out to be the suspect shocked everyone. There were details in some of the texts that made it seem as though somebody was stalking them.

[B]

We had to be careful of every single word that you said, or else you could look guilty. These texts were coming in at a.

[A]

Clip of 40, 50 a day. When they involve the state police and then eventually the FBI, you can just see how fast this escalates. Have you ever sent anything to either one of them like this? This is felony stalking. I have to make sure you are safe before I leave. The more friends you have, the easier.

[B]

It is to be betrayed by them. Like, it's crazy how something like that could happen at Fuel. Things are about to get so much worse.