457: Unknown Number

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Obsessed – Episode 457: "Unknown Number" (September 30, 2025)

Overview

In this highly anticipated episode, hosts Christine and Patrick, joined occasionally by Adriana, dive into the Netflix documentary "Unknown Number: The High School Catfish," recounting a true story from Beal City, Michigan. With their signature blend of humor and outrage, the hosts recap the disturbing events in which a 13-year-old girl, Lauren, and her boyfriend, Owen, are relentlessly harassed by an anonymous texter—revealing layers of small-town dynamics, parental failures, cyberbullying, and ultimately a shocking twist about the perpetrator’s identity.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Beal City and Its Social Dynamics

• Tiny town, tight community:
  • Beal City is so small that preschool through 12th grade is housed in one building; everyone knows each other from childhood.
  • “K through 12. Yeah, that is small town.” (Christine, 04:41)
• Small pond, big drama:
  • The close-knit nature doesn’t prevent cliques, exclusion, and bullying; in fact, it intensifies them.
  • Hosts wonder about how marginalized kids fare in such a setting: “If you’re like the little chubby gay kid, they all seem like nice people, but I cannot imagine I would have done well there.” (Patrick, 04:52)

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The Text Harassment Begins: The "Unknown Number"

• Kickoff at a Halloween Party:
  • Tensions surface when Lauren is snubbed from a class Halloween party but ultimately attends with boyfriend Owen.
• First texts' flavor:
  • Two weeks before the party, Lauren starts receiving bizarre, hostile, sexualized messages from an unknown number aimed at breaking up the “golden couple.”
  • “Hi Lauren. Owen is breaking up with you. He no longer likes you … He is coming to the Halloween party and we are both down to fuck.” (Christine reading text, 10:10)
• Initial suspicions:
  • The group suspects mean girl Chloe (who threw the Halloween party), then considers the possibility that Lauren herself is behind the messages for attention (a suspicion fed by adult “research” and students alike).

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Escalation: Cyberbullying and Systemic Failure

• Text content becomes aggressively sexual and hostile:
  • Lauren is called degrading names, shamed for her appearance, and pressured sexually. Owen is roped in through group texts.
  • “Fudgeing trash bitch. Don’t fucking wear leggings, ain’t no one want to see your anorexic flat ass.” (Patrick, 15:33)
  • “Making it cream.” (Patrick, 20:24 — recurring vulgar language highlighted)
• Volume and persistence:
  • Lauren receives up to 50 texts a day, describing real-time school events, suggesting the harasser is nearby.
• Personal impact:
  • Lauren’s mental health spirals. She begs not to go to school; her home life suffers; her grades and self-esteem nosedive.
• Institutional responses:
  • Parents’ pleas to the school and police are largely ineffective for months. School leaders and police waffle or take minimal action.
  • School has no unified cell phone policy, instead allowing teachers to decide individually.
  • “Every single teacher in the school each had their own policy about cell phones.” (Patrick, 24:51)
  • Police finally intervene only after explicit threats and suicide encouragement appear in messages.

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The Investigation: Chase for the Culprit

• Initial focus on Chloe:
  • Evidence suggests the harasser is within Lauren’s peer group, perhaps even Chloe, who is later exonerated after a forensic phone search.
  • “Chloe and her family provided Chloe’s phone for a forensic download, but there was just nothing on her phone.” (Christine, 41:58)
• Adriana’s ordeal:
  • Owen’s cousin Adriana, herself a bullying victim, is falsely suspected next—deepening her trauma.
  • “I did not want to go to school … There was no way out.” (Adriana, quoting herself, 47:25)
• FBI steps in:
  • A year and a half into the terror, the FBI traces spoofed numbers used via an app (Pinger). All evidence points shockingly to Lauren’s own mother, Kendra.

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The Reveal: Kendra’s Betrayal

• Mother as perpetrator:
  • The FBI’s tracing leads to Kendra’s devices. She is confronted; Lauren is present and in apparent shock.
  • “The person who has been doing this for 20 months is Lauren’s mother, Kendra. And I’m like, oh, it's Tall Hot Blonde all over again.” (Patrick, 56:26)
• Double life and manipulation:
  • Kendra admits partial guilt, lying about “responding” to an original harasser (there was none), and maintains control even as confronted.
  • She is found to have lied about her employment, finances, and more.
  • “She lost both of her jobs and hasn't had a job for over a year.” (Patrick, 72:07)
• Impact on Lauren and family:
  • Lauren and her father are blindsided. The family is shattered financially and emotionally.

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Reflections: Motives, Gender, and Justice

• Nature of Kendra’s crime:

  • Patrick emphatically calls out Kendra’s behavior as predatory and possibly criminally sexual (given the content and targets), expressing frustration no one uses labels like “sexual predator” or “pedophile,” and questioning if this would be handled differently if Kendra were a man.
  • “If this were a man, we would not be spending the second half of this documentary talking, and like, I’m sorry, disgustingly humanizing Kendra.” (Patrick, 57:27)

• Gender and documentary handling:

  • Christine finds value in letting manipulative criminals speak for themselves—to “give them enough rope to hang themselves,” while Patrick remains firm that not pressing Kendra harder is a grave oversight.

• Lauren’s continued bond:

  • Despite the trauma, Lauren defends her mother and maintains contact, demonstrating the complexity and depth of parental manipulation.
  • “I liked communicating with my mom while she was in prison. I could talk to my mom on Mondays and Wednesdays.” (Lauren, as quoted by Patrick, 87:57)

• Larger social critique:

  • The hosts repeatedly point out failures by school authorities, police, and mental health infrastructure—the latter notably absent from the documentary, despite its obvious need.
  • “Where’s the mental health counselors, by the way?” (Christine, 39:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “These texts sound like they were sent by Judy Gemstone.” (Patrick, 11:25)
• “The thing that these educators are not realizing is this is a crisis. They’re treating it as like any other problem that the kids would encounter. When in fact, we’re dealing with a crisis that the FBI guy down the road is going to tell us: A lot of kids that this happens to kill themselves.” (Christine, 26:16)
• “Every single person in this documentary comes off looking exactly how they should to me.” (Christine, 44:08)
• “The mental health toll it's taking on both these kids ... I just don't understand. Like, it's just unbeliev[able].” (Patrick, 31:20)
• “Sometimes a girl's first and biggest hater is her mother.” (Patrick, 57:09)
• “She was telling her daughter to kill herself thousands of times … because, honestly, that would have been amazing for Kendra. That is endless attention for the rest of her miserable fucking life.” (Patrick, 79:40)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [09:59] - Text harassment from unknown number begins
• [14:53] - Texts grow specific, suggest insider status
• [19:42] - Parents and school confront failings
• [26:04] - Hosts lambast school’s phone policy chaos
• [36:10] - Chloe is interrogated and exonerated
• [47:23] - Adriana describes bullying trauma
• [54:41] - FBI traces IP addresses; app used: Pinger
• [56:26] - Reveal: Kendra is the harasser
• [65:00] - Police confront Kendra on body cam
• [73:12] - Sean (Lauren’s dad) finds out; family fallout
• [81:19] - Kendra’s sentencing and aftermath
• [87:40] - Lauren’s continued relationship with her mother

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Episode Tone & Style

The hosts balance dark subject matter with moments of humor, empathy, and critical outrage. Their conversational, unfiltered style—punctuated with sharp asides and personal tangents—keeps the recap engaging without undercutting the seriousness of the events.

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Conclusion & Host Perspectives

• Patrick is adamant that Kendra's actions should be recognized as predatory, and critiques the documentary's insufficient framing of her as such.
• Christine values the documentary’s storytelling, especially in exposing manipulative behavior, and believes audience insight is crucial.
• Both agree on the atrocity of Kendra’s betrayal and the systemic shortcomings that let it fester.
• They encourage viewers to watch the documentary, join their Patreon/Facebook group, and tease the next episode on "Who the F*** Is Jason Porter?"

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Final Thoughts

This episode exemplifies True Crime Obsessed’s gift for dissecting true crime with heart and edge, challenging listeners to consider not just the facts but the cultural, psychological, and ethical implications of the crimes—and how we talk about them.

Transcript

[Christine]

This might be our most requested episode in years.

[Patrick]

Oh, Major.

[Christine]

I don't even know what to say. I guess we've got a lot to say.

[Patrick]

Things to say. And I have things to say. Hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

New song that's been in my head.

[Christine]

All people who I haven't spoken to in years. Friends who don't even listen to this podcast. Like, I can't wait to hear you guys talk about this. I mean, it's going to be crazy. I mean, you came with your fighting face.

[Patrick]

Look, I got things to say.

[Christine]

Hi, Jillian Benzion.

[Patrick]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Christine]

Fam. Don't forget to check out our Patreon.

[Patrick]

Yeah, we have a Patreon where we do all of the, like, long form series. So, like, for example, this is a one off. This is like a 90 minute doc. You won't find those necessarily on the page. No.

[Christine]

Although way back in the beginning, we did do Queen of Versailles and Madonna's Truth or Dare. They are great episodes.

[Patrick]

And then we do do like 90, like two Mob Wives episodes, which is 90 minutes. So that's a lie. I just lied to you. I'm so sorry, Patreon.

[Christine]

It's mostly those long form series. Like we did Amy Bradley. Right now we're doing Mr. And Mrs. Murder. What are we doing next?

[Patrick]

Next up is Cold Case, the Tylenol Murders, which is like really well done. Stalking Samantha, all those things. 4, 5, 6, 7.

[Christine]

Yeah, go watch. Go listen to our episodes of the Staircase. Why not?

[Patrick]

Yeah. That has like a million episodes.

[Christine]

And then making a murderer. 19 episodes.

[Patrick]

19 episodes. Like, what were we thinking? Look, we would do. We had to do it. We were gonna do it somehow.

[Christine]

No question.

[Patrick]

I kind of love that we did it. When we didn't think about like, is 19 episodes in a row too much?

[Christine]

Too much?

[Patrick]

Because then we never would have gotten to it. So that's the silver lining there.

[Christine]

It's true.

[Patrick]

Ad free versions of these episodes. Like I said, like bonus random stuff like Mob Wives.

[Christine]

Drag Bingo.

[Patrick]

Drag Bingo. Which is also at the $5 level. Sometimes we send you stu in the mail. It's an all around.

[Christine]

It's a whole thing. Also, join the Facebook group, It's true. Crime obsessed podcast discussion group. You know all about it. I'm sure there's 60,000 people in there.

[Patrick]

Something like that.

[Christine]

Making friends. It's highly moderated. It's a very safe space. It's really, really fun. So come check it out.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

All right, girl. Tell them.

[Patrick]

Okay. Unknown number of the High school Catfish on Netflix. I Have thoughts and feelings.

[Christine]

I. You've been saying that for weeks. I can't wait to hear it.

[Patrick]

I'm going to try to contain myself.

[Christine]

Okay, well, why?

[Patrick]

Because apparently my delivery gets misinterpreted, so.

[Christine]

All right, well, then put a lid on it, Pennsylvania.

[Patrick]

Even though everyone in my DMs is like, I can't wait to scream about this. And I'm like, I don't know.

[Christine]

What's not to like? I love the living shit out of this documentary.

[Patrick]

Really? I'm so mad at it. I'm so mad at it. Let's dive in.

[Christine]

A high school girl in Michigan was.

[Patrick]

Cyberbullied for more than a year and.

[Christine]

Who turned out to be the suspect shocked everyone. There were details in some of the texts that made it seem as though somebody was stalking them.

[Lauren Licari]

You had to be careful of every single word that you said or else you could look guilty.

[Christine]

These texts were coming then at a clip of 40, 50 a day. When they involve the state police and then eventually the FBI. You can just see how fast this escalates. Have you ever sent anything to either one of them like this? This is felony stalking. I have to make sure you are safe before I leave.

[Lauren Licari]

The more friends you have, the easier it is to be betrayed by them. Like, it's crazy how something like that.

[Patrick]

Could happen at Bield.

[Lauren Licari]

Things are about to get so much worse.

[Christine]

All right, so first we meet Lauren. She tells about Beale City, Michigan. That's where this all takes place.

[Patrick]

Well, first, all of the text messages in this film are real as the on screen text, to which I said, oh, no, I know, because that's never good. Yeah, because they're like, oh, we're not exaggerating.

[Christine]

And they're all read by Sky Borgman.

[Patrick]

They're horrible.

[Christine]

Like, when you hear the voiceover, it's sky with a distorted voice. I was like, oh, my God. She's got the perfect voice for it because it's kind of low and so it's very like, you can't wait to. You can't. You can't wait to. No, I'm saying you can't wait.

[Patrick]

I can't. I just look. Well, like Lauren Licari is. They call her a catfishing survivor. I don't know if this is actually a cat catfish per se. She's 1,000% a survivor.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But I think catfish is kind of like a grabby, like, gotcha headline.

[Christine]

How do we describe what a catfish is?

[Patrick]

I think. I think it's a little different because it's not I don't know. I could be totally wrong. I have many more hills to die on, so we can.

[Christine]

It's interesting. The catfish to me is just like a, you know, someone who's like lying.

[Patrick]

About who they are.

[Christine]

If you've been fooled on the Internet, I feel like you've been catfished. Look, fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. So we meet Sophie. She introduces us to Macy and Owen. Owen is gonna be one of our main players here. He's like the boyfriend in this whole thing.

[Patrick]

Ye. We're told that in Beale City no one has anything better to do than to talk shit. Even the parents. About the kids and each other, like, everyone's very involved.

[Christine]

It feels very small town high school to me.

[Lauren Licari]

Beale City School is preschool through 12th grade, all in one building. The people in my high school I've grown up with since kindergarten.

[Macy]

Basically There are only 30 kids at class. We all have group chats, we're all friends. No one really, truly hates each other.

[Christine]

K through 12. Yeah, that is small town.

[Patrick]

And a lot of them have been going to the school this entire time. So they've all known each other since they were like five.

[Christine]

I mean that I cannot imagine.

[Patrick]

Yeah, that's.

[Christine]

And, and like. And also you're. You're so well known by everybody in your school that everyone's in like the group chats and the group text. Like I can't imagine being different in this town. We don't get very much into that. You know what I mean? Like if you're like the little chubby gay kid, they all seem like nice people, but I cannot imagine I would have done well there.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think there, there's definitely an ARG for like. No, it's actually great because then you have maybe like, maybe. But I don't know. I mean, we're not hearing such great things about it today.

[Christine]

I was going to say like, if you're like straight, white, middle class person, I'm sure it's way amazing for you.

[Patrick]

I think you do well if you're a bully. Let's move on. So also, everyone loves their phone. I guess everyone has screen time turned on because we know that people are on it for 13 hours a day. And I'm like, everyone knows I have that screen time turned off. I don't need to know.

[Christine]

I've never looked at my screen.

[Patrick]

Tell me your business phone.

[Christine]

No, we use our phones for work. And one more thing about Beale City High School. I would really like to know what their drama club Is like, it would tell me a lot.

[Patrick]

I'd love to know if they have one at all.

[Christine]

Truly.

[Patrick]

I think that's what you were getting at by asking that, right?

[Christine]

Because I just couldn't stop imagining me in a school like this. Like, what would my life. I'm not playing football. You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

Yeah, we don't hear. We only hear about football for like two seconds.

[Christine]

No, but I just imagine, like, that's what. Like, what do they. What do the kids do? Yeah, they got their phones, I guess.

[Patrick]

Well, let's jump to October 2020, the annual Halloween party at Chloe's house. And I'm like, October 2020. I was in lockdown. Weird. Was this party outside.

[Christine]

I know what's going on there. And we see pictures of. It was not outside.

[Patrick]

It was not outside, but it's at Chloe's house.

[Lauren Licari]

There was a girl in my class that threw a Halloween party every year. And all of our classmates would go and all of our parents would go.

[Macy]

We were about a year into our relationship, me and Lauren. And she was not invited. But, like, I, like, basically invited her. Like, if I'm going, you're going to come with me.

[Christine]

So the main couple here is Lauren and Owen, their boyfriend girlfriend. Their boyfriend girlfriend. They, like, started dating in seventh grade. I'm with the dad. It is way too young. But Lauren is not invited. And, like, this is where we start to see the clickiness of this town.

[Patrick]

And they've been dating for a year. So Lauren wasn't invited, but her boyfriend Owen was. And Owen does the right thing here. He's like, if I'm coming, you're coming with me. Like, if I'm invited, you're invited.

[Christine]

Owen is very much that boy who doesn't understand why life isn't easy for everybody. You know what I mean? And he says as much, kind of throughout.

[Patrick]

Yeah, but I was like, wait a second. We just learned that this is a teeny, tiny town and everyone knows everyone, but Lauren's not invited, but her boyfriend was. And I'm like, sounds like there's a bully in our midst because we just heard everyone knows everything. Everyone does the same thing. But like, like, her boyfriend's INV and she's not.

[Christine]

And I gotta say, like, as a parent, we'll talk more about this later. But we all read an article from New York Magazine or whatever it was.

[Patrick]

Yeah, we should shout that out. So there's that article from the Cut, which is like, a lot of the things that left out of New York.

[Christine]

All I know Is I had to sign into my new New York Times subscription to read it.

[Patrick]

Yeah, whatever.

[Christine]

But we did learn in that article that Chloe's mom reached out to Lauren's mom. It was like, Lauren is absolutely invited. And I'm just saying, like, I. As a parent with a kid who's 11 years old, thank God Daisy school isn't really very much like this because these are kids that have, like, learning disab. They're all kind of struggling and whatever, but these dynamics are crazy. I was very glad to hear that Chloe's mom was like, lauren can definitely come.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Because Lauren was like, you know what? Keep your invitation. Like, she didn't really want to go. She didn't really love the kids she went to school with. We're told from Owen that, like, she just kind of wanted to. Wanted it to be her and Owen, and that's kind of it. And it's like, well, I wonder why that could be right? Travel down, girl.

[Christine]

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[Patrick]

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[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

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[Patrick]

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[Christine]

Exactly. Fam. Function is the first step towards finding out what you're made of and helping you understand what it takes to live a healthier, longer life. And who doesn't want to live forever, girl?

[Patrick]

Exactly. And I also just want to, you know, like, I don't Want to be so tired all the time?

[Christine]

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[Patrick]

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[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

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[Patrick]

Gotta own it, baby.

[Christine]

You gotta own it, girl.

[Patrick]

So two weeks before the party, these horrifying texts start between Lauren, Owen and, wait for it, an unknown number.

[Christine]

An unknown number.

[Patrick]

Hence the name of the doc. And it start. They just come in real hot.

[Christine]

Hi, Lauren. Owen is breaking up with you. He no longer likes you and hasn't liked you for a while. It's obvious he wants me. He laughs, smiles, touches my hair. Not sure what he told you, but he is coming to the Halloween party and we are both down to fuck.

[Patrick]

We are both dtf. That means down to fuck. You know, like, you're a sweet girl, but I can give him what he wants. Sorry, not sorry. So it's weird because this person is texting Owen about Owen.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And saying things that aren't true and trying to break up Lauren and Owen, and the Lauren and Owen just ignore it. They ask around. It kind of doesn't go anywhere if.

[Christine]

It'S Chloe because, like, Chloe's already established as a kind of the mean kid who, like, didn't invite Lauren to the party. She says it's not her.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

But everyone just kind of figures that it will stop. And then it does for about a year.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And then they start up again and it's all, you know, how's the golden couple? Are you preparing for the end of your golden relationship? And some of us are sick and tired of your happiness, essentially. But the messages always come back to how the person texting is the girl Owen really loves.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And then, you know, he'll be with me while your lonely, ugly ass is alone. I'm sorry, I have to say it. I have to get it out right now. These texts sound like they were sent by Judy gemstone. It's exactly how she talks from the righteous gemstone.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Patrick]

The more vulgar they get, the more they sound like her.

[Christine]

Oh, my God, when they get vulgar, it is so bad.

[Patrick]

Yeah, but all I hear is Judy gemstone. Like, I'm trying to keep this. What did she say? I'm trying to keep this fresh physique. Fine. I'm not trying to be all loose and stretched out. Like, Amber's played out pastrami. And I'm like, that's.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick]

Judy gemstone. Oh, that's scratching the surface of the Judy gemstone. But if you. My righteous gemstones, people tell me this is not Judy gemstone.

[Christine]

Oh, God.

[Patrick]

Whatever. They have no idea who this is, but they're like. Like, clearly trying to break up this couple. And something that stands out in a.

[Lauren Licari]

Lot of the texts. The unknown sender called me by my nickname, Low. So it really made me think had to be someone who had been around me or one of my close friends before.

[Patrick]

Lauren is being called by her nickname, Low.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So she's like, well, they clearly must know me somehow.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Christine]

And so Lauren is saying, like, these texts are coming fast and furious. She's getting six texts a day. And before this, according to Lauren and Owen, like, everything between them was great. Like, they were really getting along. They really liked each other. They'd known each other forever. The relationship was going really well. And this is starting to sort of get in the way of that.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So the. The Lauren Owen story. They met when they were 12.

[Christine]

That's insane.

[Patrick]

He asked her out. Lauren's parents are here to tell us about this. Shawn, her dad, Kendra, her mom. Owen's parents are also here. Jill and Dave. And the parents all became friends and got very close. And I'm like, yes. Yeah. Because they're 13 years old, and a lot of the things they're doing have to involve their parents and this town. The parents are very involved with the teenagers anyway.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean, that's happening with me. And, like, Daisy's got this little boyfriend that she's had since fifth grade, is. I won't say his name, but his parents have become our best parent friends.

[Patrick]

But not like that. I mean, this is like. Like, I was sort of like, can we all take it down a notch?

[Christine]

Oh, it's insane.

[Patrick]

The golden couple. They're 13. Like, why is this so serious? It's almost setting them up for disaster, right? By, like, putting so much weight on this when they're teenagers, 13 years old.

[Christine]

The only parent who's rightfully horrified as Sean, Lauren's dad.

[Patrick]

He's like, the girl's dad.

[Christine]

What's going on here?

[Patrick]

Yeah. So there are, like, 30 kids in the class, like you were saying earlier. Like, a lot of them have known each other since they were, like, five years old. Owen's like, yeah, the texts were extra weird because there wasn't, like, you know, there Weren't really clicks. No one hates each other. And I was like, can we get a girl's perspective? I know, like the popular 13 year old who's on all the sports teams.

[Christine]

And the boy, like anybody who isn't. His perspective, like, you were seeing it from your point of view. I was seeing it from mine. I was like, like, where's the chubby gay? Where's the black kid? Where's the chubby gay kid? You know what I mean? Like, and that's where I'm like, life is easy for you, Owen.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So the text starts getting specific about what's going on in school. Like conversations in science class, who sat where in what class. Like really, really specific things. Which must mean that it's someone in that very classroom. I never really suspected that it was the boys in our grade. Just because the boys in our grade aren't super involved with people. They don't really care about drama.

[Macy]

Boys don't really have drama. We just play sports and have fun. That's all.

[Christine]

Owen is the one to be like, it's gotta be coming from a girl because boys don't have drama.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Christine]

I was like, owen, you've never met any of my friends, girl.

[Patrick]

But like, I just again, any. Any reason to quote, scream, like, everyone is a suspect.

[Adriana]

Exactly.

[Patrick]

Cause no one really knows what's going on. Like, now they're trying to figure out, like, what did the text say versus who was around them at certain times. Like, this little crew of friends is really trying to like, put their Colombo trench coat on and figure it out.

[Christine]

And like, good for them. We get like the social class system at Beale. We got the popular group, the cheer group, which always surprises me isn't the popular group because that's how it's portrayed on T. Yeah.

[Patrick]

You know, are they not the popular ones here?

[Christine]

No, there's like the popular group, the cheer group, and then like the quieter ones who are more techy.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's the Tipton group.

[Patrick]

Yeah, Right. But it's all like, this is already taking a toll on these kids. And this is nothing compared to where it goes eventually. But like the mean messages, the suspicion, the paranoia, and this is all happening in school. Like they're distracted from their studies. Yeah, it's just a mess. But then the messages get really, really mean and really personal and all about like Lauren and the way she looks and her body and what she's we. Which is really awful for anyone, but especially a teenage girl.

[Christine]

And like Lauren's mom, Kendra, we're told she Just told her to ignore it.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Like, so, like. And Lawrence, like, I feel like I'm being watched. It's like this weird paranoia. It's affecting how she thought about herself. Like, like fudgeing trash. B. Tch. Don't fucking wear leggings. Ain't no one want to see your anorexic flat ass. That would make anyone spiral.

[Christine]

One text, like, that would send somebody out. And Lauren is getting, like, six to eight of these a day.

[Patrick]

And then. But they're saying, like. And again, it's all about o. Owen. And Owen is involved in this. So it's just, like, in the group text. He's not involved in it. Owen didn't do anything.

[Christine]

Yeah, but, like, Owen literally didn't do.

[Patrick]

Anything, but he's in that group, so they're talking about him like, you're worthless and you mean nothing. Owen will never look at you. You messed up his life so badly. Like, fudge, you bitch. Like, all of this, none of this is true, but it's meant to cause paranoia and. And distrust and suspicion.

[Christine]

And I just want to go back to Lauren's mom being like, just ignore it. I honestly, like, we hear at some point that Lauren was begging not to go to school. I would have taken her school on day one.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Because she's like, they're just wor. Like, to us, she's like, you know, I just told my daughter, like, she's beautiful. Like, just ignore them. And they're just words. They're not really causing any harm. And I'm like, number one, not true.

[Adriana]

No.

[Patrick]

Like, words can cause a lot of harm. And two, can we not block the number?

[Christine]

Right. Well, we're going to learn that they can't because they, like the robocalls we all get. They just call you from a different number. Sure.

[Patrick]

But, like, just to start it, maybe until they get a new. Just to, like, give your daughter, your son a little reprieve, maybe for a night. Like, it just.

[Christine]

And also, like, there's so many parenting questionable choices that are made here. Like, we're going to go through all of the options that were presented to these parents, and eventually. And it's like, I would take Daisy's phone the second she got this first text message, and she would not get it back until we got to the bottom of it.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So the text get worse and worse. More about Lauren and her looks. Very personal, very mean. And then they get. When I say vulgar.

[Christine]

Oh, it's. I couldn't even write it out. I started to, and I'm Like, I'm not writing this.

[Patrick]

I took the screenshots of it, but I know what word you're thinking of.

[Christine]

Yeah, we have to get to it, unfortunately. What word do you think it is?

[Patrick]

Cream.

[Christine]

Oh, that wasn't necessarily it, but it's like, it's just they're so intentionally vi and sexual about.

[Patrick]

Again, they're 13 years old, right. So talking about like sucking fingers and fucking and is like very as detailed as you can get.

[Christine]

And Owen's mom, like she's like looking right at the camera, she goes, they're 13.

[Patrick]

If this is a 9th grade girl or boy, these are pretty intense.

[Christine]

These are pretty intense.

[Patrick]

They're 13 years old when this started. Yes, 13. And the idea is that maybe a fellow classmate is texting them like this. But like, I, like if I got the. I, I feel like my stomach would hurt if I got messages like that. I'd be like, this is so as a 13 year old, scared to like be around my phone.

[Christine]

No, too much. Totally. And like Lauren for her interview, it is so many years later that she's able to speak about it from a perspective of an older kid and not in the moment of like what it must be like to get these, like to be in that room with and she's reading like. And Owen's parents do the right thing. They're taking his phone every night, which he hates, but they're like parenting him. They've made the decision that he needs to have his phone during the day for whatever reason. But at nighttime they are taking it.

[Patrick]

Away and they're monitoring the texts. They want to know what's coming in, when, what's going on. Because again, like if they're coming in at 2 in the morning, maybe a 13 year old wouldn't be up and doing that. You never know, right? So they're just trying to like figure out what's going on. But all the texts now become about this like, plan to get rid of Lauren.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Like, the texts are so long, they're so poorly written. But the general vibe is that like this texter is implying that Owen agrees with everything they're saying. It's a lot of like, right, Owen, Owen, you told me this and Owen this and that.

[Christine]

Owen knows who the texter is and is hanging out with them behind Lauren's back.

[Patrick]

Right. And it just goes on and on. And now they're getting like 50 texts a day about Lauren being like anorexic, talking about how ugly she is.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And also that Owen agrees.

[Christine]

Right. And so the parents Band together and they go to the school to let them know what's happening. And Kendra, Lauren's mom, says, we were hoping for some kind of action from the school and she's saying that some of these messages were happening during school hours. So we wanted to see what the school would do. And then Kendra says, unfortunately, I don't think the school handled things very well.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Because we meet Bill Chillman who's a little too chill Bill. Too much chill Bill.

[Christine]

Too chill Bill.

[Patrick]

Too chill Bill. He's the superintendent and Dan Boyer is the principal. Dan Boyer is clutching his pearls.

[Christine]

I know, I know.

[Patrick]

These texts. He goes, I've never seen anything.

[Christine]

I know, I know.

[Patrick]

Like this. He's like, I've never the. Because the longer that whole situation goes on, the worse it's getting. It's getting more vulgar, it's getting meaner, more sexually explicit. About 13 year old Owen, 13.

[Christine]

And these educators make this decision. I think that they are so overwhelmed by the volume and the content that they don't know what to do. So they do nothing.

[Patrick]

Right. And we're talking and I'm sorry I have to say I'm saying it because of something I'm going to say later. But you need to know how vulgar these texts are.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You dressed like a fucking slut. You try and get attention off my fucking tits in his face. Fucking make him horny. Make it cream.

[Patrick]

Fucking make him horny. Make it cream. The amount of times this person used the word cream is unbelievable. Travel down the road.

[Christine]

Back again, girl. Goodalls is back. This is that like macaroni and cheese you can eat the entire box of. Because it has all the good stuff.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So Goodalls Mac and cheese has 14 grams of protein, 7 grams of fiber with prebiotics and 21 vitamins and minerals from real plant sources, which is great. But it's also delicious.

[Christine]

It's so good cuz, you know, Monday night is macaroni and cheese night at our house. Every week it's Daisy's favorite night of the week. We used to like feel guilty about it because, you know, the stuff from the other boxes isn't as good. Now we'll let her eat a whole box if she's like had a big busy day and feel great about it.

[Patrick]

I also love the single serve cups because sometimes I forget to eat during the day and Mike is like a little Mac and cheese and I'm like, oh, that's right.

[Christine]

I know. I was thinking about you the other day when I was making it for Daisy. Our friend Bradley has switched to it in New Orleans. Bradley's doing all of our stuff.

[Patrick]

It's like so easy to do. You're just like throwing water in the cup. It's.

[Christine]

Oh my gosh, it's so easy. It's a low glycemic index food, which means it provides steady energy instead of a carb crash. And on top of that, it's kosher and clean. Label purity award certified.

[Patrick]

I love it.

[Christine]

Award winning Mac and cheese girl.

[Patrick]

I'll take it in my heart and in the world.

[Adriana]

Exactly.

[Christine]

So, fam, do what we did. Get yourself some goodles.

[Patrick]

We know you'll love them too.

[Christine]

Yes, pick up goodles on your next shopping trip. It's available nationwide at Target and Walmart. Walmart, plus many other major grocery stores and retailers.

[Patrick]

And don't forget the new single serve cups. Tell them I sent you.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But now, because this train's never late, the theory is that Lauren is totally doing this to herself for attention.

[Christine]

Unbelievable.

[Patrick]

Like she's. They're tracing the details back to her because it's things that like only Lauren would know, you know?

[Christine]

And I will say in that article that we read, they do say that like in studies and anonymous surveys, people do admit to doing this, but there are adults. Like, this is a young 13 year old girl, right?

[Patrick]

And even the theory among the teenagers in the documentary is like, yeah, she was really quiet and not outgoing. So obviously she did this for the attention. I'm like, say that first part of it again.

[Christine]

Right?

[Patrick]

She's not doing this.

[Christine]

But also we see all of these like Tiktoks and Instagrams of her like winning everything she's doing. Like she's playing sports and winning everything. She's running cross country and winning everything. It's like this girl didn't need it. She didn't want attention and she didn't need it, right?

[Patrick]

And then the other theory is like, oh, well, then she did it to get closer to Owen. I'm like, I'm sorry. The golden couple. I think they're fine.

[Adriana]

Ye.

[Patrick]

It's, it's. I wouldn't worry about it. So the school rules out Lauren and Owen right away. But the school also has 700 other kids in it. So they're like, okay. They even have video cameras up. Like they're going. And I'm like, I feel like we're not going to again. I'm an Occam's Razor girl, so I don't know why. We're like putting up secret cameras to try to catch Someone and be like, well, the timing says and cross reference.

[Christine]

It also sounds impossible. I took it as like those security cameras were already in place, but they're. The principal is having Lauren text him when she's getting text messages. I was like, this is also inappropriate.

[Patrick]

Yeah, we're going a really, like, we gotta simplify this.

[Christine]

Right? And like in a school like this where they've made a commitment to like wild, abandoned cell phone usage, you're never like, every single kid in the hallway is going to be on their phone at the time the text was sent. You're never going to figure it out that way.

[Patrick]

Right. Because what happens is so we're told that like they can't or don't block the numbers because this person was using a random number generator.

[Adriana]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick]

So like you can block one number, but they would just generate another one. So they thought about changing the kids numbers, the 13 year olds, but they didn't do that because it's so obvious that this is someone they knew.

[Christine]

They'll get the number.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, right. But if we had a little bit of patience, that's exactly how we could find out who this is.

[Christine]

I guess that's true.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Right. So Jill, Owen's mom is like, can we please have like a cell phone policy at the school so my son isn't distracted by this while we should be learning, the superintendent is like, I'm.

[Christine]

Kind of all over the board with kids having phones at school because our.

[Macy]

Cell phones, I mean, I use mine.

[Christine]

As a, as a personal office. I work a lot from my phone. You know, I know that they can be used in a classroom as an educational tool.

[Patrick]

He does a lot of work on his phone. And I'm like, sir, you realize this policy is not for you.

[Christine]

Right?

[Patrick]

It's for the 13 year olds. Like it's for the students.

[Christine]

The thing that these educators are not realizing is that this is a crisis. They're treating it as like any other problem that the kids would encounter. When in fact we're dealing with a crisis that the FBI guy down the road is going to tell us. A lot of kids that this happens to kill themselves.

[Patrick]

Right. So they. I learned the cut article.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Said that this is the worst idea ever is that every single teacher in the school each had their own policy about cell phones.

[Christine]

Right.

[Patrick]

Which is the worst.

[Christine]

Insane.

[Patrick]

I asked my best friend Ashley about this. She's an assistant principal in New York City. I was like, ash, what's the cell phone policy? In two seconds she was, no phones. We Collect them upon entry. And I was like, well, a lot of the parents, like the parents here were like, well, what if, like, what if there's an emergency? And she goes, if there's an emergency, the parents call the school if they need their kid.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

They're all thinking about a school shooting.

[Patrick]

And if there's an emergency in the building, she goes, we contact families. It's called trauma informed response protocol. It's a whole thing with the Department of Education.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So there are ways around this that it's not like every teacher for themselves, making up different rules regardless of it's.

[Christine]

I couldn't agree more. The one thing that, that hit me was reaching kids in case of an emergency. To me, I thought they're all talking about a school shooting. That if there's a school shooting, they want to be able to hear from their kids. However, if there was a school shooting, the kids should not be on their fucking phones.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You know what I mean? And at the end of the day, I don't, I don't even think we need whatever your free for all policy is with your cell phone. Idiot school right now. We're in a crisis. We need martial law for this moment. We're not saying change the policy for every ever. We're saying like kids are being bullied within an inch of their lives. You need to address this concern in this moment.

[Patrick]

Yeah. They're 13 years old. They can do without their phones for a little bit.

[Christine]

No question.

[Patrick]

Focusing in school, you know, it's not like, oh no, I'm going to lose all my numbers. Like, how many numbers do you have at 13 years old?

[Christine]

Right. And the superintendent being like, I understand that they can be used as an educational tool. They shouldn't be.

[Patrick]

Sir, please.

[Christine]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

And again, we're not talking about you.

[Christine]

Right.

[Patrick]

Adult person who loves emailing from their phone. We're talking about 13 year old kids.

[Christine]

They're just not recognizing this as the absolute crisis that it is.

[Patrick]

And the school honest want to deal with the parents. They were too afraid to deal with all the parents up in arms.

[Christine]

That's exactly right.

[Patrick]

Because even the cut article says, you know, they knew the parents wouldn't tolerate it. So that's it.

[Christine]

I do think that's an important point, that the not having a cell phone policy really came from the parents. Like the school allowed it, but the parents were saying they didn't want that. And I guess I can understand a world where not everybody understands how bad this is. But like, I don't know All I can say is me as a parent, I would be standing in front of the school with a sign with the written text messages on them being like, this is being sent to my kid.

[Patrick]

Because that kind of goes out the window when the princess principal in this very documentary is still clutching his pearls. Text messages he read five years ago. So like he. They were all shocked.

[Christine]

Right. Once again, I'm just saying they need a policy to meet the moment. And then when we figure out what's going on here, you can go back to your free for all if you.

[Patrick]

Absolutely have to write 13 months since the messages started. Now they're getting so sexual that this unknown number is encouraging Lauren to perform sexual acts on Owen. Again, they are 13 years old. Because what the unknown number is saying is like, we will win.

[Christine]

I promise you. Owen doesn't like you. He doesn't like love you. He wants sex. BJ's and making out. He don't want your sorry ass.

[Patrick]

He doesn't want your sorry ass. So now what this person is essentially doing is encouraging a 13 year old to perform sexual acts on another 13 year old to make sure that he likes her.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Which is an insane thing.

[Christine]

It's just another thing of like, if it were my kid, the phones would just be gone. You would have no access to her. You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

Is it worth it? Not really. Who are you texting? Like, why do you need a phone?

[Christine]

I was just gonna say like, what good is outweigh, horrendous bad?

[Patrick]

Zero.

[Christine]

You know what I mean? So she can Google how to spell inoculation.

[Patrick]

Yeah, but like, and again, it'll just be temporary until we get to the bottom of this.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Patrick]

Because again, like, you don't feed the troll. You don't feed if the per. You have the phone. So whatever this person wants to happen, which is chaos in your life.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

It's happening. So if you don't respond and then the person knows you don't have a phone and you're not feeding them in that way.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Patrick]

They will find someone else to talk. Torture.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And I don't wish anything. But again, to the next person, ignore them. It's called gray rocking. Don't engage.

[Christine]

And may I take a moment for ignoring? I want to stand here and tell you that I know how hard that can be. I really do get it. But it works every single time.

[Patrick]

It is time. Awesome. And I say to the next thing or person or do the same thing. We're all ignoring.

[Adriana]

Yep.

[Patrick]

So I'm not wishing it on the person, there's a little relief where it's like, oh God, they moved on. But to that next person I say with love, do the same thing.

[Christine]

And I'm sure that people are screaming like their friends will just show it to her. Fine, maybe, but like, you know what I mean?

[Patrick]

But if it's not getting to her, that's the point. It's not getting to Owen.

[Christine]

Right. And because once again this is a crisis. So like the parents need to be gathering all the friends in the room and saying, I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I am asking you not to show Daisy these text messages. She does not have a cell phone. We need to ignore this and it will go away.

[Patrick]

Exactly. So the thing is, none of this is true. All of the sexual stuff, like we're in a hotel room having sex, none of it's true. But the point is to mess with law head and it's working and it works. So now Lauren and Owen are fighting all the time, getting mad at each other and it's all too much. And Owen is just like, well, it's kind of a lot like I'm a teenage boy. And he's saying to Lauren, if we break up and just give them what they want, like maybe they'll just stop and then we can try again some other time. It's just not worth it for him.

[Christine]

No. And it does like in this moment feel like that like Owen, like these children are navigating these decisions themselves. And I know that Owen's parents are here and they're, they are very invested in this and they're very upset about it. But I'm like, I don't know, it feels like there's like young kids making big decisions.

[Patrick]

Right. Like I thought they were making this 13 year old relationship very adult before. Yeah, the golden couple thing, which I think is not healthy and very dangerous. But now this, like Owen is navigating feelings that no 13 year old should have to deal with.

[Christine]

Totally.

[Patrick]

And so he breaks up with Lauren and she's heartbroken. You know, they were together for two years. He was my first love. And Kendra, Lauren's mom, is right by her daughter's side to console her, helping her through her first heartbreak. Like Kendra, the mom, Lauren's mom is crying even now talking about this like it was just a mess.

[Christine]

And it also doesn't work.

[Lauren Licari]

I feel like in the messages all they want us to do was break up. But then when we broke up it seemed like the messages got worse.

[Macy]

The fact that they're still going after the one thing they wanted that was really heartbreaking.

[Christine]

The texting doesn't stop. It gets worse.

[Patrick]

It gets worse, you know, because it like hurting Lauren is the point. So that's fun and it's a, it's a very clear obsession with Owen too. Like, like very sexual and you know, but next. Now the, it's getting worse because now it's like threatening harm on Lauren, telling her to kill herself. Lots of threats. His life would be better if you were dead.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Hashtag bang bang.

[Christine]

And this is the breaking point. This is when finally the police get involved. Where the hell have the police been?

[Patrick]

Yeah, like, and warning. Finish yourself before we do. I mean, relentless. Relentless.

[Christine]

I would never leave my house again. Honestly, I would be so scared.

[Patrick]

The mental health toll it's taking on both of these kids, Lauren, I mean, I just don't understand. Like, it's just unbeliev. So 15 months since the messages started. Officer Mike Maine is the sheriff. The school finally calls him and he has a meeting with all the school people and the parents.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And you know, everyone's there. They're saying this has been going on for a year. The, the parents are very worried about their kids. They're pleading for help. And Mike, the officer is saying the potential risk for self harm is huge in this moment.

[Patrick]

Oh my God. So this is the first time we see all these cops meeting with these minors on school grounds without their parents, which is very nice. Not cool.

[Christine]

Sometimes we see the parents and sometimes we don't. It's wild because we're seeing the body cam footage. I just wanted to say one thing. Mike makes the point that in his mind this has to be a group of tight knit kids who are all keeping each other's secrets. That's what he's looking for. A group of kids that are a small group of kids that would be doing this together and keeping the secret.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So they're looking for clues. Right. So a lot of the texts are about the basketball game. So maybe it's someone on the team. And Lauren's mom is wondering, like, maybe is someone jealous of Lauren. And I'm like, absolutely.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And so, so the texter one day.

[Lauren Licari]

Is like, I got this one text where the sender talked about how many points they scored in the game the night before. So me and my mom thought maybe we could figure out who scored that many points. My mom was the volunteer scorekeeper at most games, so she thought we could look at the score chart. And when we looked, only one person had that amount of points.

[Patrick]

Chloe Wilson, Lauren's mom, is actually the scorekeeper at these games. So she can look at the books and see who scored 12 points.

[Christine]

Right. And at that game it was a girl named Chloe. We talked about Chloe in the beginning. Girl. Branch Basics is back today. I was literally just cleaning my kitchen with it this morning. I know nobody believes I do that, but I was. Tell us everything.

[Patrick]

Here's the thing. I'm going to be talking to you about your cleaning products. Okay.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So Branch basics is created by three women. It is a human, safe, plant and mineral based cleaning concentrate that works on just about everything. So instead of having like 10 different bottles of cleaner that's probably maybe a little toxic for you or not like, yes, really good for the earth or whatever. So this is super powerful. And when you get the starter kit, you get one big bottle of concentrate that makes 13 bottles of cleaner that breaks down to just $3.25 per bottle. Unheard of.

[Christine]

We literally cleaned out our closet full of other cleaning products when we got Branch basics. And you can use it for everything. Fem, Bathrooms, kitchens, laundry, floors, windows, even washing your produce and makeup brushes. Produce and makeup brushes, girl.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I'm not kidding. I did my regular makeup brush cleaning yesterday. Guess what? I used Branch basics.

[Christine]

So the whole thing is it's made from plant and mineral based ingredients. Branch basics is human, safe and biodegradable, making it perfect for families, especially with those with babies, kids or pets like me.

[Patrick]

Yeah, it's a really affordable swap to cut toxins and just simplify your home. It's so, so easy.

[Christine]

So, fam, ready to kick off the back to school reset? Head to branch basics.com to shop the premium starter kit and save 15 with code tco@branch basics.com.

[Patrick]

That'S 15 off your new branch basics premium starter kit@branch basics.com with promo code TCO.

[Christine]

Start fresh this season with products that are safe, simple and actually work. I mean honest. That's perfectly said. Safe, simple and actually works.

[Patrick]

Yeah. You know why? Because three women created it. Thank you. So Chloe always had a crush on Owen. They were friends, but she, like, liked them.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Chloe's not my cup of tea.

[Patrick]

No. So Lauren says that Chloe would often do things to make Lauren jealous.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Now remember Chloe and her parents through that Covid Halloween party where everyone was invited except for Lauren. But then the cut article says something different. It's all like a lot.

[Christine]

Or it says that the mom and like was like, no, she can come.

[Patrick]

Right? Which is like, oh, thanks.

[Christine]

Of course, of course. Of course.

[Patrick]

And also, I don't care what the parents say. It's all about the dynamic in those walls in high school. And let me you tell.

[Christine]

Tell you it sucks because that's the wrong conversation. Chloe's mom, you're not. You don't have the conversation with Lauren. You have the fudgeing conversation.

[Patrick]

I mean, she wants is not really.

[Christine]

How and more you just say, like, we don't do this next year. If you don't invite everybody. A class of 30 kids, everyone's invited or nobody's invited.

[Patrick]

Right, Exactly. So Lauren and Chloe, like, never got along. And now we have Owen saying that Chloe is not a nice person by any means. It's the quote.

[Christine]

She doesn't seem like a nice person.

[Patrick]

She doesn't. And her parents are trash, too.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Although the parents, in the end, they impress me a little bit.

[Patrick]

So Owen is like, Chloe was definitely saying mean and not nice things to Lauren that weren't nice. And so Lauren is, like, never going to like Chloe. It's just one of those things. But Chloe's like, oh, we're such good friends. It's like, not. It's a mess. Now.

[Christine]

The thing is, like, okay, I want to say two things at once here. Chloe is like, my worst nightmare of what Daisy would turn into, like, a.

[Patrick]

Mean girl and a bully on a lot of Chloe's.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

But at the same time, Chloe is now put through it in a way that is awful.

[Patrick]

And many things are true.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Patrick]

So, you know, Craig and Tammy are Chloe's parents, and they explain that in seventh grade, there were all these bullying allegations against Chloe.

[Christine]

And it's because she was a leader at the time. She had a huge friend group. It spanned, you know, to several other schools. And, you know, so I think that to some people, I'm not gonna say they were offended by that, but maybe they wanted that sort of thing for themselves.

[Patrick]

People were just jealous. And I'm like, it's giving. Sometimes people are really mean to the hot, popular girl. No question from Kelly Kapoor.

[Christine]

They Absolutely.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Christine]

They love that. They think that their K kid is the cool kid. And by the way, that is jealous. That is the worst kind of parent, in my opinion, that you can be. If your kid is the cool kid and your kid is not a leader, that includes everybody, then you are doing it. Fudgeing wrong.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

We see this a lot in parenting and just in life that, like, a lot of times the parents want their kids to be the thing that they weren't or something, you know?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So I don't. I don't like that.

[Patrick]

And also, it's in a lot of ways, I would assume, more pleasant to be on the side of the bully because no one wants to be on the other side of the firing squad. Of course, no one wants to be the one being shot at. So I think sometimes parents maybe, in my opinion, would be like, well, at least she's not the bully. She's the bully with a Y. But not the bully, the one being bullied.

[Christine]

One of the awesome things about Lauren is that she didn't care. Like, she, like, Chloe didn't like her. But Lauren had so much going on for herself, despite, like, a kind of rough home life that we only learn a little bit about. Like, Lauren was doing really, really. She was excelling in a lot of things. And so it was a definite mismatch.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So the cops talk to Chloe on school grounds, but her dad is here because her dad's a cop.

[Christine]

Right.

[Patrick]

So he was a guy. But it's like, can all have the same. You can't just, like, pull someone out of algebra.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And talk to them without their parents on school grounds.

[Christine]

I remember we had a school cop and he would do it. He was a good guy. His name was. Well, I mean, like, high school's wild. Like, there was a time a kid brought a knife to school.

[Patrick]

Well.

[Christine]

And you know what I mean. So, like, you know, the kids would get questioned about that all the time. Like, questioning kids without their parents with wild abandon. Which feels like normal in the 90s, but feels like it should not be.

[Patrick]

Happening today in 2021 or whatever this is.

[Christine]

At this point, I know it seems crazy.

[Patrick]

So Chloe's like, look, I've heard about this. I'm not close with Lauren. I started hearing about during volleyball season. It just started getting blamed on me. And the cops are like, cut the chloe. It's like 350 pages. It's too much. Chloe.

[Adriana]

It's too much.

[Patrick]

And she's like, cool. I still didn't have anything to do with it. So, like. And she was like, well, I don't.

[Lauren Licari]

Have anything to do with it.

[Patrick]

I'm with people all the time. And if something were happening like, that, someone would see it. Even if I was doing it, people would see me.

[Christine]

She's like, I'm so popular. I've got friends all over town. Just ask my parents.

[Patrick]

Like, literally. She's like, I have so many friends. They would see me. I don't have time.

[Christine]

I've got a Halloween party to throw. And not Invite Lauren to next.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Christine]

So I got to go.

[Patrick]

She wants.

[Christine]

I know.

[Patrick]

So Macy and Sophie are up next. They're besties with Chloe. And the thing is, remember, they think it's like a group of people because they're saying we a lot. Like, these are like, the mean girls.

[Christine]

Right. And that's what Officer Mike was looking for. He was looking for, like, this seems like it's a good answer, you know?

[Patrick]

So, like, the kids are stressed and mad. The parents are stressed and mad. Lots of fights at home, at school, like at practice, grabbing phones and going through them. Lots of paranoia, looking for evidence, pointing fingers. It's a mess.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Where's the mental health counselors, by the way?

[Patrick]

Nowhere to be found.

[Christine]

How is there not a mental health counselor at the school talking to these kids every fucking day?

[Patrick]

Why isn't there a mental health professional in this very documentary?

[Christine]

Right.

[Patrick]

I would've loved to see it.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

I'm getting honestly sick and tired of talking about all the shit that Netflix didn't include and chose to focus on and didn't pay attention to. I'm getting sick of it.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

This is like the third Netflix documentary in a row that I'm, like, super disappointed in and surprised. But, like, I'm kind of sick and tired.

[Christine]

I'm curious to hear more about that because, honestly, I, I, I know sky, and sky and I have talked a lot about her storytelling style. And like, for Abducted in Plain Sight, there was a whole version of it where there was a bunch of mental health professionals throughout and she removed them because it got in the way of the storytelling.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Christine]

And for me, I, I didn't notice it. It didn't. What I thought you meant when you said that just now was, was there a mental health professional on set? I would love to know if there was or not. Well, I don't know that for sure. We don't know that for sure. There could have been, and I don't.

[Patrick]

Know that for sure.

[Christine]

There is a big movement in documentary film make that happen. So who knows? Maybe there was, but I didn't need it. I, I get what was for me. I get the storytelling here. And I'll say more about that when we get the reveal. But I was fine with the pace. I didn't need it.

[Patrick]

Okay. So Owen's mom, everyone is thinking, Chloe did this. Chloe had to do that. She's the Regina George. Like, she definitely did this. Right.

[Christine]

And it makes sense. And it's also like, chloe, I'm sorry that you're going to go through what you're about to go through. But be nice. Be nice. Don't be the bully.

[Patrick]

Be nicer.

[Christine]

You know?

[Patrick]

And that all starts at home. So, like, people are getting desperate. So, like, Owen's mom is texting Chloe from Owen's phone as Owen trying to get Chloe to confess. Like, people are losing it.

[Adriana]

It's.

[Christine]

That's crazy.

[Patrick]

But it's also not looking. And again, these parents are way too involved in the. In a bad kind of way. It's. So you're texting another teenager as your teenage son, in a way, I understand.

[Christine]

I would never do that. That is way off limits.

[Patrick]

Desperate times call for desperate measures, Truly.

[Christine]

But also, where is the therapist? Why aren't you taking a kid to, like, deal with, like, what's really happening here?

[Patrick]

Right? And I don't know why, if Chloe's dad is a cop, like, why aren't we using our powers? Like, what exactly is going on here? Like, why is there truly nothing to be done? I know, like, that can't be right, necessarily.

[Christine]

I. I agree with you. But it does eventually take the FBI to get to the bottom of it. I mean, and as a. As a parent of a preteen, this is terrifying, how easy this is to do.

[Patrick]

And I gotta tell you, it's not looking good for Chloe because the number starts texting from a Florida number. Right. When Chloe was in Florida with her family. Yeah. And eventually Chloe's like, you know what?

[Lauren Licari]

I was just like, it's not me.

[Patrick]

Like, I don't know what you want me to do. And my dad was like, you should just get your phone dumped.

[Christine]

Chloe and her family provided Chloe's phone for a forensic download, but there was just nothing on her phone.

[Patrick]

They extract everything. Khloe is 100% innocent. And now it's, oh, no, poor Khloe's been framed.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And so I think two things are true here. I think Khloe is maybe not the nicest person, which is what people have literally just said, but she also didn't do this, Right?

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And that's what I've been trying to say to too, is that, like, this never should have happened to Chloe. This never should have happened to any of these kids. But also, people aren't going to assume you're the one to do this if you hadn't been a bully your whole life.

[Patrick]

And also, like, the whoever's doing this is an idiot because now the texter is like, hey, bitch, it's me, Chloe.

[Christine]

Here's a picture of me sending this text message.

[Patrick]

The cops Dumped my phone and it was clean. And I'm like, wait, why is it. Okay, so Chloe's.

[Christine]

I need a T shirt that says, hey, bitch, it's me, Chloe.

[Patrick]

Hey, bitch, it's me, Chloe, you fucking anorexic asshole bitch. Like, go suck a dick. Literally. Like, what?

[Christine]

Because, like, I do like it when these documentaries get you to speak like this because you don't talk like this, but it's kind of fun to hear it coming out of your mouth like, oh, my God. I know.

[Patrick]

Say cream 100 times. Disgusting.

[Christine]

I know, but, like, why?

[Patrick]

Okay, so why would Chloe admit all of this? Her phone is clean. Like, this is so stupid. And not Chloe.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

But there's a clue. The texter sent a photo that was from Christmas morning at Owen's house. And it's like, whoa. Who was there that morning at Owen's house? That would also be at school with all these kids.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

The only person is Owen's cousin Adriana. And now we're going to get a lot of bullies denying that they're bullies.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And this one girl, like, one of, you know, the Regina, like, the Gretchen Weiner or whatever of the. Of the trio is, like, when we.

[Lauren Licari]

Were in middle school, Adriana, like, made up this rumor that we bullied her and that we threw carrots at her.

[Patrick]

I'm gonna say something.

[Christine]

I know exactly what you're gonna say.

[Patrick]

I don't know much in this world. I don't know a lot.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

I know one thing.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Those girls 100% threw carrots at her. 100%. You and I have the exact goddamn carrots.

[Christine]

We had the exact same reaction and the insult of the injury, knowing that Adriana is going to watch this documentary where she's denying it again.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Well, Adriana comes out looking exactly how she should, which is a traumatized person who's been through hell and back, and those girls look like bullies.

[Christine]

I'm going to piggyback on what you just said. Every single person in this documentary comes off looking exactly how they should to me.

[Patrick]

Oh, good. I'm glad you feel that way.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

I've been thinking about this since watching this. There was a. A. A. A girl who is now a woman, but a girl at the time who went to my high school who was objectively like a beautiful girl. And for whatever reason, the kids at my school decided to hate her and they would bark at her when she was walking down the hallway. Bark at her.

[Patrick]

Unbelievable.

[Christine]

It was absolutely astonishing. It's the. The kind of thing when you are like, I was bul. Who wasn't bullied. Right. Like, you experience it when it's happening to you, but to see something like that happening to another person, it has never left me. I saw it 11th grade, and it has never left me.

[Patrick]

Oh, it's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible. I'm not comparing myself to the pretty girl in your school, but I remember there was a group of bullies. Oh, my God. I could tell you stories that would make you crazy.

[Christine]

I'm sure.

[Patrick]

But in high school, and they were older than me, and one of them, like, pulled me aside. She was like, can I talk to you for a second? And she was like, you look so ugly today. And so that. That would be kind of their move. They'd, like, want me to come here, you know, like, come over. And I remember one day they asked me to come over in the cafeteria, and I was like, no. They were, like, stunned. And that was what. That was a. A very big learning experience for me where it's like, oh, I could say no, and that has power. And that was a complete sentence. But they used to be like. Like, they would, like, want to tell me something real quick. I will never forget it. I won't even say her name. But she. You look so ugly today.

[Christine]

I cannot. Number one. I am so sorry that that happened.

[Patrick]

Oh, my God. That's. Oh, God. That's nothing. Thank you. But that's nothing.

[Christine]

I. I cannot imagine how much worse our lives would have been in high school if cell phones existed.

[Patrick]

Oh, God.

[Christine]

Social media, like, horrible.

[Patrick]

Yeah. It's really bad. Like, people and, like, the idea of, like, to say that out loud to someone face to face.

[Christine]

I know. That's insane.

[Patrick]

It's crazy. And to bark at someone.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Christine]

And it's like, the parents. All I can think about is like, do you know that your kids are like this? You must, on some level know that your kids are like this.

[Patrick]

I think sometimes the kids have a great Eddie Haskell routine.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But I think sometimes the parents know, and I think sometimes it's easier for them.

[Christine]

My biggest thing.

[Patrick]

It was not fun listening to me cry about it. You know what I mean? Of course it was not fun to parent me at time.

[Christine]

I'm sure my biggest thing when we had a kid, before we knew anything really about what her personality would be like, was not that she would be bullied. That would be awful. But you can survive that. My worst nightmare was that she would be a bully.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And that is one of the things that we have worked the hardest on with her is just being kind. And she is so loved at her school.

[Patrick]

These girls had so much power that I remember one night, the boyfriend, one of their boyfriends called my house and did the, like, verbal bullying thing. And then when I was bartending, he came in and wanted to be my best friend and get free drinks. And I was like, bye. Oh, one, one him for filth and got him the fuck out of there. But I was like, do you remember when you, like, your girlfriend told you to be mean to me and you were two years older than me and you called my house.

[Christine]

That is insane.

[Patrick]

Like, you fucking loser.

[Christine]

Yeah, we could do this all day.

[Patrick]

All day long. So back to Adriana, because this is Adriana story. So they threw carrots at you, Adriana, I'm so sorry that happened to you. You are seen and heard. And so there's definitely bad blood between Adriana and this, like, clique. And, like, Adriana didn't frame Chloe, you fucking idiots.

[Christine]

And I just want to say that, Adriana, there was a couple of times.

[Lauren Licari]

I did not want to go to school.

[Patrick]

It just.

[Lauren Licari]

It makes you feel like the entire world is going against you. Like, it feels like there is no way out. There was no good days I had at that point.

[Christine]

There was no way out at that point.

[Patrick]

You know what she's saying that she.

[Christine]

Was thinking about killing herself.

[Patrick]

Unsafe thoughts, for sure.

[Christine]

100%.

[Patrick]

So now on top of that, so now the bullies. Her bullies are now making it seem like she's framing, like, poor, innocent Chloe. Because now Chloe is a victim here, right? Which she is. But I think it's now. Because it's now being manipulated to be.

[Christine]

My question is, Chloe, did you learn anything? Did your parents sit down with you and have a conversation about the lessons that you could have taken from this?

[Patrick]

I'm gonna guess no.

[Christine]

I hope they did.

[Patrick]

I hope they did.

[Christine]

And I hope that Chloe can look back on this time, maybe watch this talk or whatever it is.

[Patrick]

Oh, she's on TikTok.

[Christine]

Well, then fuck me. But, like, I just hope that at some point in her life she can reflect on this and learn something, because.

[Patrick]

They'Re all still kids, which is another thing that I think is a little dangerous of this documentary. Like, I don't think these children. Children have enough space and distance from it, because I. I agree. I hope that you're right in that too, that Chloe is again, like, where are the parents to be? Like, please don't go on TikTok. Yeah, you know, like, please don't dig this hole deeper for any of us. But, like, that's also Chloe.

[Christine]

That's gonna follow you forever. And it should, you know.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Christine]

My greatest hope for me when I go through a hard time is that I learn something from the suffering, you know? And maybe that's. Maybe you. Maybe you have to be an adult or whatever, but, like, there was a real opportunity for. Because Chloe went through something awful for.

[Patrick]

Her parents for sure.

[Christine]

To sit down with her and say, what? Learn from this?

[Patrick]

No, because what happens is because Chloe's dad is a cop, Right. So Chloe is now, like, she's being framed. And everyone thinks that Adriana, who's, like, maybe the biggest target of this little clique, is framing Chloe because of how upset and jealous she is, which is absurd. Absurd. But I think I'm wondering if maybe the cop dad.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Pulled some strings because Adriana's here to be like, oh, now I had an even bigger target on my back. It was the worst.

[Lauren Licari]

My opinion towards police officers has changed since then. Now every time I pass a cop.

[Patrick]

On the road, like, I am scared.

[Lauren Licari]

Like, I'm scared of cops now.

[Patrick]

She has a visceral PTSD reaction to it.

[Adriana]

Yep.

[Patrick]

And I wonder, maybe they don't talk about this. This is a wild guess and maybe just a little bit of an opinion. If Chloe's cop dad was like, you bring her in there and you scare the out of her and get her to admit what she did to my little girl.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

I would just wonder if some clout was thrown around or if some privilege was thrown around.

[Christine]

It could be. And it gets worse for Adriana because now. Now she's getting texts from the texter, Right. And, like, it just gets worse and worse and worse for Adriana. She says, I broke down. I was terrified.

[Patrick]

And it should from someone who didn't live through this make it a little better, because it's like, okay, well, it's not her, right? Yeah, it's not her. Unless they'll be like, well, she's texting herself. Like, oh, my God.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So spring of 2022. No one is okay. Honestly, it's a bad time all around. This texter is relentless. Like, the point, I guess, is to ruin lives, but they. I mean, the amount of time. Yeah, this is taking is crazy.

[Christine]

Owen's mom has his phone all night, but she's looking at the ph. Texts are coming in at 1am, 3am my note here is, this person is fucking insane.

[Patrick]

Insane. And, like, Lauren, like, the kids are really struggling. The parents are really struggling. Like, Lauren's parents, for example, Kendra and Sean, they're upset about what's happening to their kid. They're fighting internally all the time. Like, their relationship is suffering. They're in a really bad place financially. They have to move, like, four times.

[Christine]

Four times.

[Patrick]

Lauren is sinking into a very, very.

[Christine]

Dark place and, like, begging not to go to school. And, like, I've got a kid with a learning disability, and there are days that she begs not to go to her specialized school for kids with learning disab. It's the worst, and it is the heartbreak of my life making her go. If Daisy were experiencing anything like this, she'd be gone day one.

[Patrick]

And even Lauren now. Like, we see screenshots of Lauren begging the per. The unknown number to stop. Like, what do you want? Tell me what I have to do.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

And this heartbreaking thing that Lauren and the doc says, reading the text back now, little me was just trying to stick up for myself. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And, you know, she says, it almost was a little bit of a chuckle. It's. It's really not nice to see that Lauren is okay. Ish. I. Oh.

[Patrick]

So there are no leads and these children, because their children are suicidal. Like, everyone's at a breaking point.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

There's this one moment where we see Owen's mom on body cam at school talking to one of the cops. She is the embodiment of exhausted. She is sobbing. She is shaking. She's, like, begging the cops to do anything. This is where I really feel the frustration of nothing happening.

[Patrick]

And she's saying exactly that. Are you telling me that all of this, there's still nothing to do?

[Christine]

She hands over Owen's phone. It's buzzing as she's handing it to the cops. This has been going on all day, but all day today and all day for the last 16 months, this woman has not slept a solid eight hours in a year.

[Patrick]

Right. So 18 months since the messages started. The cops, who haven't really done anything but bully Adriana, call in the FBI for help. Enter Bradley Peter, FBI liaison. And I'm like, peter, Bradley, Bradley, Peter, guy with two first names, whatever. So the first step.

[Christine]

He's got a cup of coffee that is not a prop. Is drinking out of that.

[Patrick]

You know, that makes me crazy when I'm like, that's an empty cup.

[Christine]

I know.

[Patrick]

But I thought with a zillion dollar budget.

[Christine]

I know. I love that he was like, I'm gonna bring my coffee into this interview.

[Patrick]

He's like, FBI Bradley, Peter, I need all the energy. I Can get FBI Bradley. So step number one, they do a full extraction of Owen's phone. They don't find anything. He don't do this. One month later. Because remember, Owen and Lauren, like, the texter got what we all thought they wanted, which is them breaking up. Right. And then everything got worse. So Owen is now dating somebody else.

[Macy]

I slowly started to feel happy again, like, maybe everything will be okay. One day she texts me. She's like, my mom just got a random text from someone. And it. Here we go again. It's the same format, same words. Telling the girl from pinkaning to back off me because I'm theirs.

[Patrick]

Now her mother is getting a text from this unknown number.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, oh. So this is also a very, like, Owen specific obsession as well.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Because if it's not about the two of them breaking up, then, okay, the girl's mother, two and a half hours away. Like, how is this person doing this?

[Christine]

This tell us that the texter has to be connected to Owen in a meaningful way. Because how else would they get this per. Owen's own mother has not met the mother of his girlfriend.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Christine]

And yet the texter has that woman's phone number.

[Patrick]

Pretty advanced.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Doesn't feel. Yeah, pretty advanced. So, like, how do they get this new girlfriend's mother's phone? Like Owen's being stalked.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Like Owen is being stalked.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

But now Owen's getting angry and he's becoming aggressive. Because you do. You must feel like a caged animal.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Like you can't. Like everyone else gets to be on their phone. I'm a 14 year old kid and I can't be on my phone.

[Christine]

Also, I'm gonna say it for the last time. Nobody is taking him to deal with his mental health. Like, nobody is really sitting this kid down with a professional to be like, we need to really talk about all of this.

[Patrick]

Like, everyone is in crisis.

[Adriana]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Christine]

You know, and this, it feels again, like a documentary where we have the benefit of seeing it all put together.

[Patrick]

Totally.

[Christine]

And maybe they maybe like, I feel like Owen's mom knows it's a crisis. I feel like the kids sometimes thinks it's a crisis. At other times they don't. And I think we have to remember that everybody has a little bit of information and we, the viewer, are the only ones with all of the information. So it is like, it is just exhausting.

[Patrick]

Yeah. But FBI Brad is like, hold tight, I'm almost there.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Because he's trying to find this unknown number and he's like, I know. It's in one of those weird apps. So he takes the number that's sending the messages, and he tries to figure out what company owns that number. Like, what app randomly generated it.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And at least one number came from an app called Pinger, which I'd never heard of, but it's an app that people use to disguise their phone number.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Like, what are the good uses of that? I wonder.

[Christine]

I was just going to say, if you're using that, I would like. Dear listener, tell us what I'd like to know. You know, because you're either cheating on your partner or you're trying to get away with something.

[Patrick]

Or something. Yeah, I'd love to. Give me a positive.

[Christine]

If you're prank calling, like, a bad guy, great. Disguise your number. If you're, like, prank calling, like, you know, some bully, great. Do it. But, like, what are the. Anyway, if you're using that app, you need to look at your life choices.

[Patrick]

Right. So the FBI. So they find it. Right. Okay. Pinger, Great. So the FBI gets a search warrant. The app gives them the information. Two IP addresses that belong to a Verizon network. Verizon gets the warrant because one, the FBI shows up.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Like, Verizon's going to maybe. Listen.

[Christine]

Do you think the texter knew that all along? Whoever the texter is, did they know that eventually somebody would.

[Patrick]

I think they were waiting for this day, and I think all attention's good attention, and I think nothing was going to prevent.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

This story getting to where it got today.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

This is all part. This is all part of the fun for the text.

[Christine]

It's been a long nine years for you and me, and we've seen some shit. Some shit that makes us understand some things.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

Totally. So they get the numbers back, and we're about to get, like, the quote, big reveal.

[Christine]

I found one phone number that kept coming up being connected to that IP address at the time these messages were sent. And the phone number was Lauren's mom, Kendra.

[Patrick]

The person who has been doing this for 20, 20 months is Lauren's mother, Kendra. And I'm like, oh, it's tall, hot, blonde all over again.

[Christine]

Right? Can we think nobody died here?

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Christine]

Can we pause for one second?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Who was your guess?

[Patrick]

Definitely an adult.

[Christine]

Definitely an adult.

[Patrick]

For sure. An adult.

[Christine]

And I was sure that it was one of the parents, but I was like, but they're all here. How could it be? All four of the parents are in the documentary. So I was like, how is this possible? Yeah, I have avoided this twist for. I was able to get to watch this documentary without finding out. It has been everywhere. It's been everywhere and everyone's been wanting to tell me and I have been able to avoid it. And thank God I was able to watch it fresh.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And I don't think it's that big of a. Like, we've seen this before. Sometimes I'm very lucky that this is not my experience, but sometimes a girl's first and biggest hater is her mother. But there's no way this was a kid. Kids don't write like that. It's super advanced.

[Christine]

But then it's like, how, how did she do it?

[Patrick]

Because then like almost the most shocking part is that Kendra has been here crying about this for 45 minutes. And this is what I want to say, that I'm really disappointed and I think this is a really big misstep. I want to be very clear. In my opinion, Kendra is a sexual predator. Like, she should be on the sex offender registry. Those disgusting texts were sent to 13 and 14 year olds relentlessly. She was sexually harassing her own daughter, pressuring her to do sexual things to another 13 year old boy, sending, like sexually explicit tech. If this were a man, we would not be spending the second half of this documentary talking. And like, I'm sorry, disgustingly humanizing Kendra.

[Christine]

See, I don't think that's what's happening. I think what sky, in my opinion, does so brilliantly here is gives Kendra enough rope to hang herself.

[Patrick]

And that's fine. But like, we don't need to sit here and hear her bullshit. If she was not a white woman, I do not think we would be giving her the platform to lie. Like, we don't learn anything.

[Christine]

No, but we see the manipulation. We're watching the manipulation in real time. She's trying to manipulate us. She's telling us how she's manipulating her daughter. And I think that's really valuable. I think seeing how these do this, I think watching it happen in real time, I think that's one of the reasons why you make a documentary like this, because you get the monster to sit down. That's what I was saying before about everybody in this documentary comes off exactly how they should they reveal themselves. And I think we need to see it.

[Patrick]

And I'd be more willing to agree if anyone use the word pedophile or sexual predator, because we don't talk about her disgusting sexual obsession with Owen. Yeah, the way she tracked down his new girlfriend's mother's phone number. This is an Owen specific obsession and we will get into more of what was left out of the cut article.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And I would be, I guess, maybe more willing to see that side of it. But no one is talking about it. And there's a couple of really like shady editing things they do.

[Christine]

Like the cut article doesn't mention it either. You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

Like no one is calling her stalking him.

[Christine]

Yeah, stalking, they do, but I mean she gets convicted of stalking.

[Patrick]

But like no one, he's a child. He's a 13 year old boy. The sexual texts that she was encouraging her daughter to do her sexual fantasies about this 13 year old boy made me feel fudgeing crazy that no one was talking about it. If it was one of the dads or the male principal sending those sexually explicit texts.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

To 14 year olds, a girl and a boy. Like, do you think we'd be covering it in this same way? I don't think so. She's a white woman.

[Christine]

No. Yeah, I guess I agree. But like in any of the coverage I've seen, nobody is calling her a pedophile. I haven't seen that anywhere.

[Patrick]

Really?

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

I will die on the hill that she should be on the sex offender registry.

[Christine]

I think what she did is absolutely disgusting. I think it is like. And I think there's no question that she was obsessed with Owen and all of that. I hadn't considered that angle of it until just now, but I was, I was very. I think it is such a coup that sky was able to get her to tell her story. And I think the way that it was done to show this master manipulator, we never see that.

[Patrick]

But I think you were always going to get her to tell the story. Just like that idiot from look into My Eyes sat down. It's attention, attention, attention.

[Christine]

I don't know. I mean, the lady from the cut article tried to get her and she said no. You know, like, I don't think that she was willing to sit down with just anybody. I think that what we have loved other documentaries and you don't have, like, it's fine. Sky is my friend. I. There have been things that she's done that I've loved. There's been things that I haven't had an opinion on. I really like this. And I think one of Sky's great gifts is her ability to get people to trust her. And I don't think she lied to Kendra. I think she said this is going to be your opportunity to tell your Story.

[Patrick]

Oh, sure.

[Christine]

And you're going to tell your story, and sky knows that she is a monster, and the monster will be revealed.

[Patrick]

Yeah. I was just really shocked at how no one's talking about something that I thought was, like, crazy obvious that, like, this woman's a predator and the double standard of the fact that she's a woman.

[Christine]

No, I think that's all fair. I think that's absolutely fair. I think you're right that if this.

[Patrick]

Were a man, like, sending those texts, I mean, thousands and thousands and thousands of them, I think it ended up being, like. Like 80,000 texts or something. Insane.

[Christine]

I think that's more to the reason why we need to see it. We need to show that this is real.

[Patrick]

Would you want to talk to the man, though? Would you want to give the man a 45 minute?

[Christine]

What I'm saying is, I get that it is controversial, but I, like, we. That she's given the platform to reveal herself so that we can understand that women can do this too.

[Patrick]

Sure. But, like, I guess what no one is saying is that what she did is, like, predatory. She's a sexual. You know what I mean? Like, that's the thing that no one's really saying.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

I was kind of, like, shocked by.

[Christine]

I. You know, I went as far as to say, I think she's absolutely obsessed with Owen. I hadn't in my own brain been made the leap to calling her, like, a sexual predator. I think what she did with the text messages was absolutely vile and disgusting and is sexual predatory behavior. So I'll. I'll agree with you on that.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So anyway, now that, like, everyone's looking back, the cop's like, you know what?

[Christine]

I remember thinking in my head, this doesn't make sense. Then I start realizing that Kendra has tried to interject herself into my investigation a few times under the guise of. Can you tell me where you're at with everything? Can you. Can you up. Update me on the case?

[Patrick]

Kendra was always asking a lot of questions about updates on the case. And at first you're like, okay, well, any mom is going to ask that.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But she was also, like, really, really, like, really involved in the school.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Christine]

And had been from day one. Like, we learned in the Cut article, too, that she was, like, doing the book fair, doing the bake sale, and.

[Patrick]

Like, not all involved parents, but Kendra.

[Adriana]

Yeah. Yes.

[Patrick]

Like, keeping involved. We love involved parents. But, like, now that everyone's looking back, they're like, well, I know they mentioned that she has an IT background, and then you're like, aha. So she. The article says that she worked at an IT service desk as a specialist in cell phones.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Like, she wasn't just it, she was like, cell phone IT so she could, like. And she probably has access to other websites. You know, like when it's like, oh, you can Google something, but if you have access to a certain website, you get, like, more information about it. That's probably how she got the new girlfriend's mom's number.

[Christine]

Yes, right. Because. But then also, like, where did the picture from Christmas morning come from? How did she get that? Because she must have gotten it from somebody that knew Owen. But wouldn't the person who took that.

[Patrick]

She's been manipulating her. They're enmeshed.

[Christine]

But what I' saying is, wouldn't the daughter remember having taken that picture and being like, that could only have come from me. It has to be my mom.

[Patrick]

I think her mom was hacking into all of her phones and stealing all of her shit. Like, this is. She's good at the hacking stuff.

[Adriana]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

But I'm just saying, why isn't anybody connecting it? Wait, that's the picture I took. How did they get it?

[Patrick]

Well, in the article, they were like, people were suspecting her. Yes, like, that's very clear. And we'll get into why in a little bit.

[Christine]

They say even Lauren in the last month was suspecting. Because when we get. Okay, we'll get there in a second.

[Patrick]

So the cops go to Kendra's house to try to get a confession of some sort. We see the entire thing on a body cam. It is absolutely insane and pretty, like, actually sickening. So remember, this is the sheriff who's been working on this case the entire time. He knows Kendra, Kendra knows him. They've been working together to get to the bottom of this when, like, she had to have been waiting for this day.

[Christine]

Because I was gonna say, when he pulls up and Kendra's walking out towards the cop car, and he's like, hey, we're here. We need to talk to you. And he doesn't say, it's good news. We know who. Like, she must know there's a reason the cops are here, and it's bad.

[Patrick]

She literally throws her phone in the woods.

[Adriana]

Yeah, I know.

[Patrick]

The article says that. That she, like, her phone was found stashed in the woods. Cause she was like, well, throw it. Because, like, when the cops got there, because she had, like, three phones. And so the phone that she was doing this on, also, this is when I realized Kendra's mouth Doesn't fully close. Like her lips don't connect.

[Christine]

And when I'm watching it, this is a great opportunity.

[Patrick]

I was like, is that her speaking? Because she, she can talk. I can't do a blood. Like a. She's.

[Christine]

You have to try to do it again.

[Patrick]

Because she'd be like, is it.

[Christine]

Does it have to do with Owen? Is there an infatuation there with Owen?

[Patrick]

No, nothing like that. Okay. They're like, are you obsessed with Owen? And so she'd be like, no, not like that. And that's like. She's saying, no, it's nothing like that. But she can't. So she has this like, like, no offense to pigs, but a little bit of like a piggy nose. And so she'll like, no. And like she's a. Like, so she's the mouth breathing and then the, the gummy sue action she has going on. And so she'd be like, no, I'm not texting anyone. I love my daughter. And I'm like, did you just say you're not texting anyone you love your daughter? Like, what fam? Why is her mouth like that?

[Christine]

If you needed any reason ever, go check us out on YouTube. You need to go watch that moment right now.

[Patrick]

Do I look like her? She's like, does that. Is that it? I can't. I don't know, it's just.

[Christine]

It is. But I will say she is making the craziest faces. This body. Well, and I. But like I. I'm trying. I was trying to imagine what is going on internally. Like it's all about to come crashing down. And Lauren is sitting right next to.

[Patrick]

Her, which never should have happened. So the cops say, we came up with stuff that comes back to you. The messages are coming and originating from you. And she's like, uh huh. I can't do it because you won't be able to understand.

[Adriana]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

No, is that it? Right? I can't do it. At first she tries to deny it, but she folds in 10 seconds.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And she starts lying by saying like, well, the first ones didn't start with me. The first ones were a rando, but then I fed off of it. No, it was you the whole fucking time.

[Christine]

She sticks to that story to the end.

[Patrick]

Now my thought is Lauren, under no circumstances should be here. Yes, she should be taken away from what I believe is a pedophile. She should not be. This is a very, very, very bad move by the cops. Because what happens is this like, again, my opinion, this like predator is hugging.

[Christine]

And yes, holding for dear life will.

[Patrick]

Not stop touching her daughter. I'm like, stop touching her. You're like, this is all manipulation, by the way.

[Christine]

And by the way, I was starting to feel like Lauren was unsafe. Like her actual, like, bodily safety was not guaranteed.

[Patrick]

The mother is acting like they're all in it together. Like this happened to the two of them. Like you, she did this. And like, like Lauren is in complete shock. She's is so. Like she's not saying a word.

[Christine]

I wanted to mention the cut article. Lauren says that she started to believe that it could be her mother about a month before the cops. No, but that explains her behavior better on the body cam. Because if it was Lauren, if Lauren had no idea, she'd be freaking out and she's just sitting there, her face melting.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I think it might. I just think like she's completely in shock, this woman who again, like, we don't know the inner workings of the manipulation necessarily, because part of this, I think most of it was this like weird sexual obsession with Owen. But part of it is definitely that, like, oh, no. Yeah, my daughter has like, I'm the hero. Oh, no. So there's a closeness there. And I think it's one of those things where you're like, am I real? Like, Lauren, like couldn't like feel it if you pinched her. Like her whole life just came tumbling down. And I think she's just an absolute shock.

[Christine]

Well, and that's just the beginning of this shit that we're all about to find out.

[Patrick]

Also, this idiot cop again, like this woman for 22 months has been texting her daughter to kill herself.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Her mother.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Sexually explicit texts to her and her 14 year old boyfriend talking about her body. And this idiot cop is like, sometimes when we're not thinking straight.

[Christine]

I know.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, again, don't make me fudgeing. Defend the men.

[Christine]

I know.

[Patrick]

If it was the dad, would we be letting her. Who? The sexually explicit, disgusting text to teenagers encouraging her daughter to have. What if her daughter actually did something sexual that she wasn't ready to. To do?

[Christine]

Of course. I mean, because the mother is an absolute monster. No, there's no, no argument here.

[Patrick]

Would you let her be clutching her? No, you'd say, stop touching her. And you wouldn't be saying it in this casual kind of like sometimes people make choices like, what am I watching?

[Christine]

I have the same note. Like, it is absolutely insane.

[Patrick]

It's appalling.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So they call Sean the dad. They're like, you need to get home. Now he gets home, we see the body cam footage of Mike telling Sean what's going on. So this is the deal. Every time the kids receive a message, her number came back. So that was enough for a search warrant. And that's why we're here today. So we took her phone in the computer. My detective was clicking that. I started talking to her.

[Macy]

I said, it's.

[Christine]

It's over with. It's done. May I ask what. What phone did you take? She had in her pocket. I can show you. So couple. And then we hear Sean tell Mike the cop, well, which phone did you see? Because she's got a bunch.

[Patrick]

And she's been telling the dad, it's for work, that one's for work. And it's never for work because we'll get into that in a second. But people are. Do you clock the table behind?

[Christine]

Okay, so am I crazy? My friend Chris texted me the same thing. I watched the first time I did. It's a table full of booths.

[Patrick]

I mean, yeah, when I watched it.

[Christine]

The second time, maybe I'm mistaken here, but the booze weren't there when he first comes in. And I was thinking, then we later we see all the booze on the table. And I thought with the search warrant, looking for devices, maybe they cleared out.

[Patrick]

A liquor cabinet to me because everyone's like, oh my God, like they're drinking all the time. And I'm like, to me, that is a table of bottles, like for an event or for a party. And we will learn later that this is. Or we will learn from the article, the cut article, that this is his. The dad's parents. House.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So it's not even their house. People want to know.

[Christine]

I'm going to go back and watch it again. Because when I watched it again this morning, I was like, oh, the booze aren't there. And then they are. But maybe I'm wrong about that. But I was looking for it. And I feel like I remember thinking they weren't there and then they were.

[Patrick]

I got to tell you. I'm sorry. I'm just going to say this as bluntly as possible. I don't think a bunch of alcoholics would a bunch of bottles because they would drink it all. Like, if you.

[Christine]

That's true.

[Patrick]

If you go to someone who has substance use situation, like the booze has been consumed, it's.

[Christine]

It's purchased daily.

[Patrick]

To me, it looks like someone's having a big party or someone's collecting booze for some big event that's happening at some Big event hall.

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Patrick]

I wasn't that, like, I noticed it.

[Christine]

I definitely noticed it the first time and then looked for it again the second time.

[Patrick]

But to me, there are plenty of other explanations for it, and it's the least of my worries right now.

[Christine]

It also looked like creme de mens. Like, it was like, green. I'm like, we're drinking Madonna Midori all day. Like, no, thank you.

[Patrick]

Yes, please. Midori. Yeah, whatever. And if it's in something.

[Christine]

I don't think I ever knew that about you.

[Patrick]

If it's in, like, a cocktail.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Midori sour. Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Patrick]

Not too much, though, because then I'll be like, a lot of sugar. It's too much.

[Christine]

I know. Where's my cornbread?

[Patrick]

What's happening?

[Christine]

Seltzer.

[Patrick]

So it turns out that not only is she the texter with all of the things I'm not going to repeat, you know, she's doing the cops are also, like, also, she's been lying to you for years.

[Christine]

Yep, I know. She was like, oh, from Paris, you know, and she had it background. It's like she's doing all the text messaging.

[Patrick]

She lost, you know, both of her jobs, and she hasn't had a job.

[Christine]

In over a year. She hasn't had a job for over a year.

[Patrick]

She doesn't have a job. And the reason you guys have been moving around is because there's no money coming in and she's been keeping that from you. And you just keep getting evicted.

[Christine]

And we learn a little bit in the documentary. More in the cut article about how she runs everything in this house. She runs all the finances. Sean has no idea. He goes to work. He changes oil at a local mechanic shop. That's his job. And Kendra's been like, the. Working in it at Texas University and, you know, all of. But. But hasn't been. And like, they moved four times in one year. And then. Oh, my God. Sean tells us this horrible story about they moved all of their stuff into a storage facility for like 100 bucks a month and Kenner didn't pay that bill and all that shit got repossessed.

[Patrick]

But then was it in the article or in the documentary where they just admit to her basically committing insurance fraud and that we never talk about it again?

[Christine]

It's in this documentary. It's like the assumption is that she said the house got struck by lightning and she got insurance money that she.

[Patrick]

Then just like, disappeared somewhere.

[Adriana]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

Any. So this is felony stalking again. Like, the sexual behavior is not Discussed. But the father, the dad in this moment is like, kendra, I don't care where the hell you go, but get out of this house right now.

[Christine]

Yeah. And, like, this is where. That is where. Because he says, it's over. I'm done. And that's when Lauren breaks down. That's when Lauren has finally. And I'm like, how is everybody allowing this to happen right in front of her? Because the parents are literally standing on either side of her ending their marriage.

[Patrick]

But when it's after, so it's like, okay, you're caught. And then the dad comes in and he's like, I know everything, and now you have to leave. And now Kendra is crying and grabbing Lauren, being like, I can't leave her. And I'm like, she's cradling Lauren and kissing her head. After the sexually explicit text she said to two 13 year olds, get her away from that kid. Don't let her touch her. Stop kissing her. It's fucking weird and disgusting.

[Christine]

The cop, I think, cannot handle the fact that this is a woman that has done all of this and he doesn't know what to do.

[Patrick]

Yeah. Like, sometimes we make bad choices. Are you kidding? What if it was the dad?

[Christine]

I know.

[Patrick]

Don't make me defend men.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But then, like, cut to Kendra today crying, and I'm like, oh, God, now we have to do this.

[Christine]

This is the important part. I think for me, this was the important part where it was like, oh, now we're gonna watch Kendra try to manipulate us. I think the production team sees this as revealing the monster, and Kendra sees this as her opportunity to get us on her side.

[Patrick]

Yeah. I'm just gonna, like, respectfully disagree about it.

[Christine]

That's okay.

[Patrick]

Yeah, because, like, to paint the picture right, like, she would. All of the stuff she would do, like threatening to kill her daughter, telling her daughter to kill herself, all the sexually explicit stuff, like bringing. Even though Chloe. We have our issues with Chloe.

[Christine]

I love Chloe.

[Patrick]

She didn'. The thing that. You know, framing teenagers, all of these people, a town in crisis. Poor Adriana. Like, just the ripple effect of everything she did. Plus the sexual stuff. Stalking the new girlfriend and her mother. Blackmailing teenagers, lying about her job. Probably maybe insurance fraud.

[Adriana]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

And then being in the. The principal's office. Like, pretend you're the cop and ask me a question about it.

[Christine]

Aren't you so upset about what's happening to your kid?

[Patrick]

Oh, totally. I love my daughter. Hold on a second. You fucking anorexic. Your boyfriend's dick, I mean, literally. Because people were saying she was phone all the time.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Like one job that she admitted to losing it was because she was on her phone too much.

[Christine]

She got fired for texting non work tech.

[Patrick]

And it's like how many other people is she doing this to or has done this to? Like what is going on here?

[Christine]

But don't you think that sky and I have not talked to her about this? But don't you think that sky thinks that too? Like, I don't see there's any world in which this documentary is like, and now we're going to let her tell her piece.

[Patrick]

I just don't know why we're not talking more about like the predatory behavior. Like. No, I just feel like that's a missed opportunity. Like why wasn't she pressed about it, any of that?

[Christine]

Why wasn't she charged with it? You know what I'm saying? Like, I think there's a reason. Like, I think, you know, I think.

[Patrick]

It'S sick that she wasn't charged, but I don't think it makes it any less bad that she did it just because she couldn't be charged with it.

[Christine]

I, for my, in my opinion, I think she was absolutely obsessed with Owen. There's no question about that. I think she was jealous of her daughter. I think she was also needed her daughter to need her. I think it's all wrapped into that, the predatory sexual behavior. I think that's a thing that you have, have to be able to like, I don't know, prove, like.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I mean the system's broken. I wish we could do that, you know, but I, I don't understand how you can. Like, for what other reason would you be texting a 13 year old boy like that if you don't have.

[Christine]

I mean the text pedophilia inside of you, the texts that we saw that were sexual in nature, I thought were mostly to Lauren about what Owen wants her to do to him.

[Patrick]

But if Lauren's dad was texting about what he wanted someone to sexually do to his daughter. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I just think it would be a different conversation.

[Christine]

Yeah, I haven't like really thought this through, but I, I think she's just a monster in every way you look at it.

[Patrick]

Oh, well, that we, we agree on.

[Christine]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So, but Kendra, then like cut to Kendra and she's like, you're gonna think I'm crazy. And I'm like, you got that right. But then she's. Every single one of us makes mistakes Not a single one of us has lived a perfect life. And realistically, a lot of us have probably broke the law at some point or another and not got caught. I mean, I'll be honest. You know, I'm sure people drove drunk haven't been caught. Right? But again, if you get caught, you're in the same situation and I'm in but for a different thing. It's just like, driving drunk. I was like, driving drunk is also awful, you dumb bitch.

[Christine]

But it's also. You're comparing driving drunk, which is awful, but you're comparing that to telling your kid to kill herself.

[Patrick]

Right?

[Christine]

She's like, that's insane.

[Patrick]

The difference is that I got caught. But, like, how many. Any. Any number of you have been driving drunk? And I'm like, what? This is the worst false equivalency I've ever seen.

[Christine]

It doesn't make.

[Adriana]

But that.

[Christine]

That's what I'm saying. Like, she's just left out there to look insane.

[Patrick]

And also, Melissa Perry, her cousin's here, who's like, oh, Kendra's always been a nice nightmare because she says they went.

[Christine]

On, like, seven cruises together.

[Patrick]

Too many cruises.

[Christine]

Too many.

[Patrick]

But she's like. She says, and I wish, like, more from Melissa, please.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

We get, like, this one comment from her, and she's like, let me. She goes, here's what Kendra's like. If you. If she were here, as you and I are talking, she would be dancing over there, trying to get the focus back on her.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And I'm like, yeah, yes, obviously. But then she says the thing that makes me fucking crazy, and you know how much I hate this, but if you needed a favor, she'd be there for you. And I'm like, aha. That's part of the manipulation that.

[Christine]

Right? Like, that makes perfect sense to me.

[Patrick]

Not everyone who's nice is manipulative. But Kendra.

[Adriana]

Yes. Yes.

[Christine]

But this is. This is like. I want to say it was even in that moment when she said that, that I was like, oh, this whole last 20 minutes is about exposing the manipulator.

[Patrick]

Yeah. And, like, making her sit down and recreate and reenact her. Sending the text in the dark with her fucking open mouth and her mouth breathing. Like. But she's like, it was. I was a different person. Something else took me, like. And at one point, I think the truest thing she says is I was consumed by it.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

I think that's the truest thing she says this whole time.

[Christine]

I think that's the thing. There's nothing that Kendra can say to get us on her side. Kendra just doesn't know that. You know what I mean? So she keeps talking and talking and talking and telling us more about exactly who she is. And my worry is, what is she going to do now when she gets back out in the world?

[Patrick]

Well, she. Yeah. And, you know, but, like, one thing that's got asked, I was like, thank God. She's like, well, all those times you told your daughter to kill yourself, like, were you scared she would actually do it?

[Christine]

Right.

[Patrick]

And the mom is like, I can say I. I was not scared of her hurting herself. I know Lauren, and I know the conversations that her and I had, but if I didn't know her as well as I did, it might be different. So, um, yeah, the mom told her daughter to kill herself thousands of times.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Because, honestly, that would have been amazing for Kendra. That is endless attention for the rest of her miserable fucking life. Yes, yes, that would have been fucking great.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

For Kendra. But, like, she's just like, no, I know my daughter was gonna be fine. And I'm like, so you're okay with the lifelong trauma you're going to inflict on her?

[Christine]

Right?

[Patrick]

Like, I just don't understand.

[Christine]

I also am curious about Kendra's past. Like, has she ever done anything like this before? You know what I mean?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, what's her backstory?

[Patrick]

And the only person who kind of, like, hints about how disgusting and predatory this is his cousin Melissa, who's like, why are you talking about blowjobs and, quote, sucking?

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

They're 13.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

What is wrong with you? So then we have to hear about this, like, cyber Munchausen's case, which is basically, like, people faking cancer for attention. Yeah, I don't. I think that's kind of letting her off easy. Like, I think it was definitely, like, driving her daughter into her arms, but I think the, like, I think it lets her off easy with the Owen obsession.

[Christine]

Oh, that's so interesting. Like, I think that Kendra is a very, very sick and dangerous person.

[Patrick]

I.

[Christine]

You know, and I think that, like, the Munchausen, like, you're saying, is probably part of it. I think that Kendra being out in the world is. She's a menace to society. If I had any power here, Lauren would never see her ever again.

[Patrick]

Well, so here's the thing. So Kendra and Lauren, like, the authorities, of course, want to keep them apart, but Lauren is so clearly enmeshed with her mother. Lauren was begging to speak to her. Lauren didn't want to be separated, and it's like, this is, this is a dark manipulation and Lauren is also a child and like needs a lot of help and that's, I'm sorry, like what's best for her.

[Christine]

Right.

[Patrick]

Like, but Lauren was like, no, she didn't want that. And she fought for it and so she got it. And so Kendra pleads to two counts of stalking a minor. One count for Owen, one count for Lauren. Nothing about Owen's new girlfriend and her mother.

[Christine]

Right.

[Patrick]

She took a plea. So some of the charges were dropped. I guess that was one of them.

[Christine]

And we never got a trial. That's the other thing because like they.

[Patrick]

Didn'T want the kids to have testified suffering enough. So I guess the sexual charges, if there were any, they like, they would have gotten dropped. It would have been nice to know this specifically.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But she, she was sentenced to 19 months. And Owen's mom, Jill talks a little bit about Kendra's obsession with her 13 year old son. And Owen is like, it felt like.

[Macy]

She was attracted to me. She was super friendly and super like, here, I'll go get you this. I'll go do this for you. You know, it's just, it wasn't like it was like my girlfriend's mom. It was, felt like it was something more. She would do things for me. She would, she would cut my own steak for me. It was, it was just to the point where like it was almost too weird.

[Patrick]

He said she'd cut my steak for me. And to me that's so gross because on one hand she's completely infantilizing him, but in the other hand she's sexualizing him in these texts and that's just so fudgeing gross.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And his mom says, you know, looking back, Kendra was like always at Owen's events.

[Christine]

We learned something in the cut article that was wild.

[Patrick]

So many things. But here's something that I was like, I don't appreciate this choice either. Like, as we're talking about all of this, we're seeing photos of Owen today where he's like super tall and like he's still like 17 or 18 years old, but like he has muscles. And I'm like, well, why don't we show the photos of him when he was 13? Because that's when she was doing this.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

So please don't make him look like he's this 6:2. Again, still wildly inappropriate. But show the like teeny tiny little Owen at 12 and 13 when this started because that really drives the point home of how predatory and like how much of a Pedophile. I think she is.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

That to me seems a little bit like. Well, don't ignore that part. It feels like you're purposely ignoring it by not showing like teeny tiny 13 year old Owen.

[Christine]

I remember seeing those pictures too and having maybe a similar thought. But I, I, I think for me, like I didn't get as focused on that aspect of it. I got, I definitely got focused on the obsession with Owen and telling your daughter to kill her. Like I don't know how anybody it. And, and that was what was speaking to me so well was that she got this woman, woman to sit down and try to explain herself. But like, you know.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I guess it's just like everything she said. I feel like we've heard from these a million times before. Like she was never gonna matters that she's a woman. It won like the dad would never, the principal would never and we shouldn't. So my thing is this. They're both doing the same thing there. It's just as bad. But because she's like a white woman, she gets to sit and like tell her side of it. But everyone knew she was gonna lie anyway.

[Christine]

I think we just fundamentally disagree on that because, but what I'm saying is I, I think we need her to sit and tell her story. Now. I am always, I've always been a big criminals need to tell their stories. I want to hear them.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Christine]

So I am appreciative of that anyway. But I think because she's a woman, we, it is incredibly valuable that she tell her story so people understand that this is real.

[Patrick]

But she's lying about her story.

[Christine]

But that's the point. The point is that she's given all of this airtime to try to get us to like her so that we can see her do the manipulation in real time and not fall for it. It in my opinion.

[Patrick]

Right, right, right. I guess I just feel like we've done that before.

[Christine]

Not with a woman, you know, or maybe we have done it with a woman, but like, like we're saying if like 90% of the times we've covered cases like this, it's men. I think lately I've been asking myself a lot, why do these documentaries get made? You know, is there a purpose? Is it just entertainment? Is it just to make money? And I think a documentary like this gets made so the monster can be revealed. And I don't think that happens very often. And I don't think the monster is really very often revealed, like in their own words, you know. And I Think the audience needs to be. I'm not speaking to you. You're the smartest person I know. But the audience needs to be smart enough to understand what's happening. You know, they need to understand that this is a documentary about a master manipulator and we get to watch them try to do it to us.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I guess I'm sort of of the mindset of like, I can understand it, but it could still piss me off.

[Christine]

Which it did.

[Patrick]

Major.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Because like the CUT article is talking about like, you know, Jill Owens. Because then it's like looking back at on it, Jill, Owen's mom is like, yeah. She, like, you know, would always make the kids pose with their arms around each other. Always, like forcing them to touch each other. They're going to be together forever. They're 12.

[Adriana]

Yeah, I know.

[Patrick]

She would type I love you to Owen as Lauren. Like, Lauren wouldn't be typing that.

[Christine]

We get a lot of these parents using their kids phones pretending to be their kids. That is crazy.

[Patrick]

Like, and if the dad was. It's just so. And like Kendra would like travel three hours even after they broke up. Like, Kendra, the mom would be like, can I come with you on vacation to go for this thing? And Jill, Owen's mom had to be like, no.

[Christine]

Yeah. This is from the cut article. You said this already. Yeah, okay.

[Adriana]

Yeah, that was.

[Christine]

That really stood out to me that because Jill and Kendra were getting to be like good friends and Jill had to be like, no, girl, that's not appropriate.

[Patrick]

And then at one point she's like, we're only going to talk about the bully. Like we're actually not friends anymore.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

But then there's this whole text exchange about Kendra being pissed at Lauren that she's not like sitting on Owen's lap or something. Insane.

[Christine]

This was interesting from the cut article. What was happening was during the bullying time, after Owen and Lauren had broken up, Lauren is at a baseball game and Owen is there. And remember, Lauren's mother's the scorekeeper. So she is texting Lauren and the language is important because you go sit your fucking ass down next.

[Patrick]

Move your ass now. Now I'm fuming. Pissed off. This is fucking ridiculous. Answer me and move your ass.

[Christine]

Yeah, she's texting like the texter as her mother, you know.

[Adriana]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

But like also like to get them back together or get them close to each other. It's like really weird. And then the students are like, yeah, Kendra was always like creepily parked in our parking lot.

[Adriana]

Yes.

[Patrick]

Like, she was always Just like there and then she'd be like, oh, so, so weird. Yeah, you guys saw me. I was just there.

[Christine]

I got some coffee, whatever.

[Patrick]

It's just like very strange.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's the one thing from the Cut article too, is that I think that there was definitely rumors going around the town that people knew. And we get some of that in the end when we get to Chloe's parents. Chloe's parents are fucking pissed and they're mostly mad at Owen's mom because they're like, owen's mom led the charge against Chloe. And, and, and Chloe's dad said, I texted Owen's mom in the first week and was like, this is probably Kendra. Yeah, you don't know her that well, but it's probably her. She's not an honest person. Like, they clocked Kendra from the beginning.

[Patrick]

They did. So back to the doc. Lauren is like, now that you're asking me, like, yes, it is sad that my mom told me thousands and thousands of times to kill myself and all the other things.

[Lauren Licari]

I know my dad's ang and we'll probably like never forgive her, but I just kind of put that aside and just have the relationship with my mom that I want. I liked communicating with my mom while she was in prison. I could talk to my mom on Mondays and Wednesdays.

[Patrick]

She loves her mom and she loves that they can talk on Mondays and Wednesdays and they email all the time. And then we see these screenshots of these like sickening love bombing emails from Kendra to Lauren from prison sending butterfly kisses, like, love, love, love, love, love, love, love. But the word love just like a thousand times.

[Christine]

I'm at you because you said goodbye and not I love you, goodbye.

[Patrick]

And then Kendra is trying to blame her rape at 17 years old for why she did this. And I'm like, as a survivor, like, disrespectfully. Give me a fucking break. Yeah, at the end of this, like Chloe's parents do want to say, like, yeah, we clocked her, but they're being weird also. Did you see? Did you hear how her mom says the word documentaries?

[Christine]

What?

[Patrick]

Did she say documentaries?

[Adriana]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

Because she's talking about like, I'm sorry, they're kind of bullies, I think.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Because they're talking how it's like so fucking obvious that Lauren and her dad were in on this whole thing.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Can we not. I know Lauren is a victim of this. Like, we are not going to drag a child into this. Lauren didn't know. Like, stop. She's been manipulated and abused by her mother.

[Christine]

We'll also say the cut article points out that Lauren's dad didn't know a lot about the texting because Lauren's mom kept it from him along with her.

[Patrick]

Finances and everything else.

[Christine]

But being the texter herself, not only did she, like, she kept it from him and like, you know, Lauren's dad might not. We see in the end, like, Lauren and her dad are doing great and they've gotten super close and he's a much more maybe attentive dad now than he used to be, but he was kind of a hands off parent, you.

[Patrick]

Know, And I think that was also what, I don't know, their dynamics, like, maybe he won, I don't know. But Kendra was also happily manipulating that 100%. So I'm sure it's like, oh, you don't have to worry about that. Oh, it's just drama on the phone. Don't worry. You know, like, I'm sure.

[Adriana]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick]

And so we get, you know, Lauren saying that now that because her mom's out of prison, her mom got out of prison. And so Lauren's like, I'm not allowed.

[Lauren Licari]

To say see my mom now that she's out of prison. I want to see my mom when the time is right. I think it would just be a relief to see her, but like, also hard.

[Patrick]

I want to see her when the time is right. And from the article, Shawn has divorced her and received full custody. Now reportedly, like, the Kendra and Lauren are allowed even less contact. So I think they can talk to each other and, you know, when a certain amount of time gets up. But it ends with Lauren saying, you know, I love my mom. I love my mom more than anything. And this is, is another, like, editing trick. There are two interviews.

[Christine]

Yes, I was going to mention that too.

[Patrick]

And the pink outfit is like, she's obviously much younger. It happened right away.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And the gray outfit, she's like, you can tell she's older and.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And has thought a little bit more about this.

[Patrick]

Right. So in the gray outfit, she's saying things like, I just want my mom to get the help she needs. Like, I don't want to talk to her just yet. Like, I need to do work, she needs to do work, like, whatever. But that's like the gray hoodie and then the younger Lauren. So like, to end with the younger Lauren to be like, I love her more than anything. In my opinion, it's pretty unethical and done for the sake of shock value at Lauren's expense because it Feels it sort of wants you to end with like, oh, my God, that's fucking crazy.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And I wish, like, there used to be like little lower thirds about, like when the interview was done.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And I wish we, like, it didn't take some. Some like. Wait, what? That feels weird.

[Christine]

I'll give you that. I'll give you that for sure. Because it. I was glad to hear what looks like an older Lauren say, I'm not ready to talk you to her yet. I'm not ready to. Whatever. And then ending it with her saying, I love her more than ever, which was clearly filmed before that.

[Patrick]

It's like, hasn't Lauren been through enough? We're gonna end on sort of this. Like, what? How could she say that? It's like, well, she didn't.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Even if she did, she's a. She's abused. She's a victim here. But I love that she's going to study. She's going to college for criminology.

[Christine]

I know, right?

[Patrick]

And of course, this ends with if you're struggling with mental health, go to want to talk about it dot com. Because that's another thing. Like, I would have loved an expert, I guess. I hope these kids were.

[Christine]

I get it. I understand why there wasn't an expert, you know, and I think, unfortun, we have to accept that, like, documentaries are storytelling, you know, and like, somebody like sky, who's like a real artist, in my opinion, takes that. That very seriously. And I just remember having the conversation with her about Abducted in Plain Sight and why she took them out.

[Patrick]

Look, I. This isn't like something about sky, and I'm talking about this very documentary. I thought. I think it was wildly irresponsible to not press her on a lot of things. I didn't like the ending. I thought it's. I felt crazy for not talking about, like, the sexual predator aspect of it. And like, we have interviewed Sky. I loved what she did with Lacy. She took that story back for Lacy's sake, which I love. So that's why I was so surprised and disappointed in so many aspects of this.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

But, you know, that happens.

[Christine]

Hey, this. We agree to disagree sometimes.

[Patrick]

Sure.

[Christine]

And like, you know what I mean?

[Patrick]

I'm not budging on it. So I'm happy that we could have this conversation.

[Christine]

And no one's asking you to budge.

[Patrick]

Good. Thanks.

[Adriana]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

And usually I will budge. I'm just saying, like, I'm not going to budge on the sexual predator aspect of it.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Patrick]

Like, and I'm going to think more about that it really upset me, you know, I just felt like.

[Christine]

Man.

[Patrick]

Yeah, but you know.

[Christine]

Oh my God, girl. We did Unknown number. The High School Catfish. Is that what it's called?

[Patrick]

It is, yeah.

[Christine]

Oh my God, fam. You want to check this one out on the YouTube it's true crime Obsessed podcast on the she's making the face again. You have to come and see it. It's wild. Join our patreon. Join our Facebook group. Join our discord. What are we doing next, girl?

[Patrick]

Romcon. Who the is Jason Porter?

[Christine]

What? I don't know anything.

[Patrick]

That's the name of it, but it's a. Like who the Blank, but it's Romcon. Who the is Jason Porter? It is two episodes on Amazon, but we're going to do it in one. Cuz it's like two 40 minute eps. We can crack that out as one episode. Great.

[Christine]

I can't wait. I know nothing about it.

[Patrick]

This is an extra long episode, everyone, so I hope you loved it.

[Christine]

I know this one. This one that we're doing right now. All right. We love you, we love you. Bye bye.

[Patrick]

I had some doubts. Are you really into older women? One name just kept popping up. Jason Porter. Jason Porter. He was a thief. He committed fraud. He was a criminal. This guy is a scammer and I am literally next on the list. He's a menace and he needs to be punished. He manages to manipulate the police. He can manipulate absolutely everything.

[Christine]

Who the fuck is Jason Porter?