← True Crime Obsessed
True Crime Obsessed
476: True Crime Conversations: Patrick Hinds, Josh Hallmark, and Eric Carter-Landin
00:48:07
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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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Hey, fam. Steve here. I'm filling in today because Patrick is a little bit sick this weekend and he lost his voice. So happy to join you for this intro. Today we have a special episode. It comes to us thanks to Josh Hallmark, who is spearheading a project to do a bunch of different conversations between true crime podcast creators. And this one is a conversation between Patrick, Josh Hallmark, like I mentioned, who hosts True Crime Bullshit and Unsave Spaces, and Eric Carter Landon, co founder of AdvocacyCon and host of the podcast True Consequences. We put links to all of those podcasts and to AdvocacyCon in our show notes here. So in this conversation, Patrick, Josh, and Eric chat about why they podcast, how they got into it, the distinct perspectives of being gay men covering true crime, and they share the true crime podcast they've loved over the past few years. This is a great opportunity to learn about podcasts you may not have heard of. And as Patrick Sundays, to hear three queens flame out over the existence of an America's Next Top Model Tell all podcast, it's sassy. And like I mentioned, this is part of a whole bunch of these conversations that Josh helped put together with a lot of his true crime podcaster friends. Jillian has one as well. That'll be coming out soon. More details about that after this episode in the Outro. So enjoy.
- [01:28]
C
Hey, guys.
- [01:30]
D
Hi.
- [01:31]
C
So before we kick off, because I'm sure there are people who are listening to this who have not met all of us, why don't you share your origin stories? Why don't we start with Eric?
- [01:42]
A
Yeah, well, mine is a bummer, so it's good to get that out of the way right away. My brother was murdered 39 years ago, and I've been fighting for justice for him ever since. And so everything I do, everything I have done has been in honor of him and in memory of him. So I started true consequences in 2019. It's been a very long time since my listeners have heard from me. This will actually be the first episode in a long time. So I'm excited to reintroduce myself to everybody. But from there, I started a nonprofit called Angels Voices Silence no More. We help families of the missing and murdered through grants to help them fund their advocacy efforts. And then I also founded Advocacy Con with a couple of really amazing advocate friends of mine, Whitney and Melissa. And, yeah, so that's my really fast, really long winded journey through true crime and into the world of advocacy.
- [02:36]
C
And, Patrick, what about you?
- [02:38]
D
Hi. Well, for me, you know, I fell in love with podcasting as a consumer, you know, like in the 2010s, and wanted to make a podcast just as, like, a creative outlet. So I started making theater podcasts back in, like, 2014, 2015. Met the incredible Gillian Pennsylvani, who was making another. Another theater podcast. And we became fast friends. And, you know, we both wanted to. We had been talking about making a true crime podcast, and sort of, long story short, we sort of had a different idea for the show than we make True Crime Obsessed. We covered true crime documentaries. And I wanted to make something really nerdy. I wanted to do something that was very, like, NPR style. Three segments, like a news segment and like, a segment where we talked thing that we had watched or listened to, and then an interview segment in the end. And in the middle part, we. We were sort of recapping the documentary, the Imposter. And when I went to edit the episode, I was like, wow, this is, like, really different, you know, than anything that's sort of out there. And I, like, loved the tone. And I went to Jillian and I was like, I think this is the show. And she's like, yeah, that's. She was like, whatever you want to do. Like that. Great, let's do that. And we started True crime obsessed in 2017, and we have been going strong since.
- [03:58]
C
Understatement of the day. I'm Josh Hallmark. I was living in a van, traveling the country with my partner in 2015, and got sick of music really quickly and started listening to podcasts. And as a writer, I was writing a book at the time. I fell in love with it as a medium and as someone who has a very fluid relationship with the term finished. I was like, this seems like more my style than writing a book, because I know if I write a book, it'll never be done because it'll never be perfect enough. And with podcasting, it has to be done because you're putting it out into the world and then getting, like, immediate response.
- [04:40]
D
And it's never perfect.
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C
And it's never perfect. So I started podcasting about Small Town America, which was kind of what my book was loosely about, and I fucking loved it. But it wasn't picking up steam. We had just moved to New York. I was trying to make podcasting a career, and I knew that true crime was, like, the best way to make it a career. And I had this fascination with the Israel Keys case, and I was shocked that no one had covered it yet, let alone done a deep dive. And so I was like, well, I've listened to serial I can do this. And now it's been almost a decade of doing the same long form podcast. And then, yeah, I've started branching out a couple of years ago doing other projects. None of them have been like, as commercially successful as True Crime Bullshit. So it's kind of like my golden handcuffs. But it's also like, even if True Crime bullshit no longer exists, I will still be investigating keys probably for the rest of my life.
- [05:40]
D
That is so fascinating. And I love that, like, you and I have had conversations where it's like, I can't stop making it because people keep demanding it. So, like, sor. We just need more.
- [05:51]
C
It's like I feel like I'm living in like a machine over here where people. People can't get it fast enough. The episodes are too short and I'm like, I like, you have to understand every five minutes you listen to is like two hours of my life.
- [06:05]
D
Yes. Yep. Well, this is so amazing. I'm so excited to be doing this. I like it. To point to one other time, three gay men have been in a podcast episode talking about advocacy and true crime. And this is as soon as. Josh, when you proposed this and thank for that. That's, you know, community building, I think, is everything. So thank you for taking the charge. But this is. I was like, where's our True Crime Gays podcast? We need this.
- [06:30]
C
True. The real gays here.
- [06:33]
D
Exactly.
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C
Well, so I kind of wanted to talk to you, Eric. I think so. For me, being in production is incredibly stressful because you're like, it has to be perfect. People are going to criticize me no matter what I do. And once you start production, you're like, oh, this is my life now. Like, I go on h. Hiatuses between seasons and I'm always terrified to start the first episode because once you start it, you're like, I'm on the bus and I can't get off now. So, Eric, you're straddling all of that with also just your own experience of like, being an advocate, having not only reported on true crime, but being a part of true crime because of your brother's murder. What's it like navigating the stress of each of those?
- [07:18]
A
Yeah, it's really tough. I have to work really hard to take care of myself. Just with the advocacy, work alone, like, working on my brother's case, it takes a lot out of me. And that's frankly why I haven't produced an episode in a long time. Because the pressure of that on top of everything else that is going on is really hard to balance. So I definitely feel you, Josh, and I definitely feel like when you're doing the research and you're doing it the way that you're doing it, it takes a lot of. So I think it's all about. And this is so cliche, and I'm sorry to say it, and I'm going to sound really gay saying this, but it's all about self care. It's all about self care, right? Like, you have to rest and you have to take time to cleanse your brain from all of this, like, dark and heavy stuff that we talk about. And so I've spent a year and a half doing that while also trying to help other people so that it kind of takes that heaviness and it moves it in, like, into something positive. I don't know if I answered your question or if I just got really, really gay.
- [08:24]
C
Two things can be true at the same time. It's so funny because it is so heavy. And I always wish I could infuse more levity into that, but that's also really tricky, too. How have you navigated doing a comedy true crime podcast, Patrick?
- [08:41]
D
You know, it's so interesting, that question, because, you know, we no longer call it a true crime comedy podcast because I think we. We never. Gillian and I never really thought of ourselves as funny people. I think that we think, like, our friends think we're funny, but we never. We're not like, comedians or anything like that, you know, and when we started True Crime obsessed, you know, 2017 was the era of, like, my favorite murder, you know, and. And that was kind of the thing was, like, not certainly, certainly not laughing at true crime or laughing at the content, but just sort of being silly in way that we tell the stories, or at least allowing for silliness to be a part of it. And for Julian and I, you know, that happened naturally. And when we would try to explain ourselves about, like, what we meant by saying that we were a true crime comedy podcast, we would always say what we're. When we're laughing, we're laughing at, you know, how angry we're getting about this, or we're laughing at, like, how dumb the idiot prosecutor was, or it's really just us sort of like laughing through our rage at how common this is, how. How badly it can go. Also, like, part of our commentary is also on the documentary itself. And, like, they can be horrendously made, you know, so that was what we were always sort of like, laughing. That was the comedy part. And I think as you know, we were. We always really wanted to be more involved with the true crime community and the true crime podcasting community. And as we were really, like, meeting people and getting feedback, we really decided that we needed to take the word comedy out of our. Out of sort of what we said that we were doing, because not only was it not accurate in the sense that, like, we're not making jokes, you know, we're trying to find levity where we can. It was. I don't know, we felt it was kind of disrespectful. It was disingenuous to what we were actually trying to do. And so, you know, Gillian and I, for being the people who we are, we always allow for lightness. We want the conversation to be authentic. We want to, like, bring the people that we are into talking about these cases. And so there is humor there, you know, and some of the. Some of the feedback that we would get from people would be like, you know, some of the levity makes it a little bit easier to listen or to learn about these cases. And so we also thought that that was important, that, you know, if the mission is to keep telling the stories and to keep getting the stories out there, if we're providing an alternate way for people to sort of digest this information, we thought that was valuable too. But we were always. So the most important thing to us was to honor the victims of the storytelling, you know, and that was why we. That was really why we got why we were drawn to true crime, because we. We wanted to talk about these cases. We wanted to engage in the big feelings people have when, you know, when. When discussing these. Which is why we never wanted to do a straightforward. Here's what happened. It was always a commentary podcast because we wanted to be able to, like, investigate how we felt about these things. So that's another long winded, very gay answer. So I feel like I'm in good company.
- [11:46]
C
I feel like we're going to be full of those I know know who doesn't get enough credit because it's line to toe is wine and crime. Like, they do such a job of, like, being advocates, being hilarious without ever, like, making the hilarity at the expense of the victims or their families. And I think that is so hard and takes so much mental space to create a show like that. And I don't think people really consider how much work they put into being funny and respectful at the same time.
- [12:18]
D
They're also just so damn smart. I've been on their show a couple of times, and Every time I do it, I'm like, I'm not ready. I'm not like, they're so smart that I'm like, I can't keep up with this. The level of intelligence is so high.
- [12:32]
C
Oh, yeah. I mean, like, you have to be smart to be that successful doing a comedy true crime show.
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A
Yeah.
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D
And they're also just, like, so normal. You know what I mean? Like, I just love them so much. They're just, like, so down to earth, normal gals. They're just. They're the best with their Minnesotan accents.
- [12:49]
A
I mean, and not to turn this into, like, a fangirl moment of them, but they really do, like, beyond what they do on the show, they really reach out and help people in the community, people that need help, and, like, make Christmas happen for families that can't afford just amazing women. Amazing women.
- [13:05]
D
You know, I gotta say, it's like, I think it's the responsibility of those of us who make podcasts like that to sort of like, one of the things Jillian and I started doing years ago was we would do an episode, and then, you know, we would try to find somebody from the episode to do an interview with outside so that we could also get a deeper perspective on their experience, not just of their story, but also, you know, making. Being in a documentary. Being in a documentary about it. I think one of the turns that we're seeing in the industry that I think is so amazing is the need for, like, mental health services for people who participate in these kinds of documentaries. And, you know, I think we're starting to see, like, mental health professionals being on set to be available to the, you know, to people who participate. And it really is inspiring. There was definitely a time where I was like, there's something about all of this that feels off, you know, And I think now we're starting to really understand and take care of the people who participate and tell their stories, which is crucial. One of the shows that we cover is a Robin Roberts show from Hulu. It's called Murder Has Two Faces.
- [14:11]
C
Yes.
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D
And the way that Robin Roberts takes care with her guests, you know, the people that are there to tell the stories about their murdered loved ones. It is so strikingly different from the other things that we cover. That is always a major part of the conversation, you know, and it's, you know, the reminding of the interviewee that you're here to tell their story and honor them and share that, you know, and it's. I can't think of her name, but Joey Buttafuoco's. Daughter is now an advocate, and she's working with companies, like, with documentary companies and podcast companies to have mental health professionals on set to take care of the interviewees, which I just think is. Has been overlooked for far too long.
- [14:51]
C
Yeah, I, It's. I struggle between wanting to be a, quote, unquote, real journalist and also just being so concerned about the impact of my work where, like, there are people I want to call and should have called years ago, but I'm like, I don't want to traumatize them by calling.
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D
Yeah.
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C
And like, if I were a true journalist, I'd be like, it. This is the story. But I just don't have that in me. And it takes sometimes years for me to, like, build up the confidence to reach out to someone, which is like.
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D
You'Re like the gentlest boy on earth. You know what I mean? Like, if anyone's gonna be interviewed by anybody, let it be you.
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C
But it is funny because I've become pretty good friends with Dr. Chris Kunkel, who's a forensic psychologist. And the one thing we talk about all the time is, like, to do this work and like him way more than us. But even in the worlds we're living in, like, you have to be able to laugh at some of this stuff, otherwise, like, you'll go fucking crazy. So I think, think that's the one thing people probably don't realize is, like, most of us are. Have really dark senses of humor. And like, while we are ethical and advocates, or hopefully most of us and have the respect to do what we're doing, we also like, like to get drunk and talk shit and make fun of things and laugh at how inhumanely dark all of this is, because that's what gets us through.
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D
Like, if I couldn't laugh, I barely drink. Joshi. How dare you?
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C
Same.
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D
How dare you?
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C
Yeah, I always feel funny when we're at, like, events and convent conventions and I'm like, oh, now people are going to see, like, drunk Josh at 11pm at the bar.
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A
Drunk Josh is a fun Josh, though, I can say. And Drunk Eric is really inappropriate. So, yeah, like, HR Stay away from me.
- [16:36]
D
I gotta hang out with drunk Josh and drunk Eric more. Come on.
- [16:39]
C
Speaking of which, listener interactions have been, like, very formative for me in good ways and bad ways. Like, how has interfacing with listeners impacted your work?
- [16:52]
A
I guess I'll go first. So it's. It's amazing. I love, I love talking to my listeners. I've had some moments that have been shocking. One was this guy in Italy, who sent me this, like, really long message, like, oh, you know, I've heard about your story. Like, I'm so sorry what happened to your brother. And then, like, by the way, here's a picture of my dick. Yeah.
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C
Not joking, funny. The first question that came to mind was inappropriate.
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D
That has never happened to me. That has. In all of the years and all of the social media that I do, that has never happened. I'm so sorry that that happened, Eric. That's. I mean, unless you were into it. That was.
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A
Well, it was hilarious. I mean, like, at first I was like, wow. And, you know, I think you could get mad or you could laugh at it. And so I decided to laugh at it because it's just absolutely absurd that anybody would think in any kind of realm that that would be okay. But it's. It was still hilarious. And if it would have happened to somebody else, I probably would have also laughed about it. It's like I laughed about it at myself. I don't know. But for the most part, my listeners have been incredible, gracious, empathetic, loving, kind of. And then we have a couple of random pervs and conspiracy nuts. But, you know, I'm sure Josh has lots of conspiracy nuts, too.
- [18:12]
C
I feel like the grass is always greener because I was just in Palm Springs with a bunch of content creators, most of them women, and one of them was like, oh, I get dick pics all the time. And I was like, yeah, no one sends me dick pics. But then I also feel like I would be disgusted if someone did. I don't know. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
- [18:29]
D
I will say it did happen to me once, now that I'm remembering it. It was a listener who I, like, interacted with a bit on social media. Like, I'm pretty activ. I like to, like, be in touch with people. And it was this guy, and he sent me. It wasn't a dick pic, but it was a picture of him in his underwear. And I. And I commented back, like, hey, not cool. Like, please. I was going to comment that back, but what I was trying to do was open the picture so I could take a screenshot of it. So I had it if I needed it for evidence or whatever. So I'm tapping on the picture, and I tapped it too many times and it harded it. So then I. So then I had to write it back and be like, not cool, man. And then I blocked him. I don't know.
- [19:12]
A
Not cool. Heart. React. You said to me, all my friends are going to see it and they're going to laugh at it. So that's what's going to happen on my side of the world.
- [19:20]
D
Yeah, totally.
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C
That's a weird thing with being gay. Like, I was bitching about this wasted in a hot tub the other night where I was like, everyone's always like, your boyfriend's so hot. Your boyfriend's so hot. And I'm like, like, what about me?
- [19:36]
D
Like, that is. That is rude. You know what I mean? That is rude. No, I, I mean, you guys know me. Like, I, I love, like, listener interactions. Like, you know, when I go on tour, I always say, like, doors open at 5:30, dot, dot, dot, by me. Like, I open the doors. I'm the, like, I'm there for the whole pre show, just walking around, meeting everybody, talking to everybody. I do the show and then I stay after and talk to anybody who wants to stick around and hang out. Like, it is. It really is my favorite part of this whole thing is, is meeting people and, you know, and I was saying to somebody the other day, like, I'm always open to any feedback, positive or negative, as long as it is respectful, as long as it's meant to be a conversation, you know, as opposed to, like, people just being hateful of which I've gotten plenty. But, you know, I'm always open to, like, learning a lesson. I'm always open. Like, I, you know, very early on in one of our Patreon episodes, I said something super ignorant about suicide. And we got. I got a lot of feedback about it. And I, I remember, like, getting onto the platform and being like, hey, I'm gonna, like, find a mental health professional and like, sit down and do like, a long call and get educated. And I did. And I, you know, and this woman was absolutely incredible. And her sister is Lizzy Kaplan from Mean Girls. I know she's a listener and she's like, call me. I'm a. I'm a psychiatrist. I was like, great. And I did. And. And I got educated, you know, and, and so, like, I'm. And I, you know, and I actually was really grateful for it because I, you know, I've always said I. The only privilege I was born with was mental health privilege. I've never suffered from depression. I've never, you know, so. So that. That world is hard for me to understand sometimes. And so I was very glad to be educated in that space. And I learned better and now we do better. So I'm always open to it. And that's been, I think, one of the reasons why TCO has been successful is because we are. We want to grow and change and evolve as humanity does, as true crime podcasting does. Like, we. We always want to do better.
- [21:44]
C
Yeah, I think that's such an important point because, like, I hear a lot that I'm not open to feedback, and I'm like, no, I am, as long as it's respectful. And like, yeah, I want to have a conversation with you because I truly believe in the Dunning Kruger principle of, like, you don't know what you don't know. So it's like, yes, there might be, like, a hundred reasons why I made that decision. You don't. Like. And rather than attacking me for it, like, why don't we have a conversation about why I made that choice or, like, why I didn't share this or, like, why I, you know, whatever. Like, and I just think if you want to have a meaningful conversation, you can't come in hot. You can't come in with, you know, criticizing someone. You can't come in with name calling. You can't come in with, like, piety.
- [22:25]
A
Yeah.
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D
You know, and sometimes, like, when we get comments on our Patreon episodes, you know, where I'm trying to remember, we were covering the Amy Bradley documentary on Netflix. And I don't remember what we said that really upset people, but there was, like, a really strong reaction to it. And I was reading through the comments and some of them were just so nasty. And I was like. And I would look and be like, you guys have been, you, You've been a patreon member for 8 years. Like, you know me, you know, and, and like, I've probably met you in real life and maybe you read my book even, you know, and. But like, a lot of that, that goes out the window. And then I have to remember that, like, as a gay man, there was one podcast in particular that I. That I used to listen to a lot. I won't name it here, but I felt like I knew these people and. But I would always listen with a bunch of straight people and I would listen with a critical ear because, you know, even, well meaning, you know, allies can say ignorant things sometimes. Remember one time they said something that I thought was ignorant, and I, I mean, I, I lit up and then, you know, and they responded and we worked it out and whatever. And. But like, now I have to remind myself that, like, I did that too. I've been listening to that podcast for years. I feel like I knew them. And I still. Sometimes people feel more almost Like. Like some. Sometimes people who have been listening the longest feel like the most aggrieved when you do something that bothers them. And I have to put myself in a mindset of being able to understand that. Like, they feel like we're friends, and they feel like they're owed something for their loyalty, and they are, you know, but. But, like, kindness goes a long way. That's all.
- [23:57]
C
Well, I think also, like, that's the thing that's made. Criticism never gets. It gets easier, but it never, like, doesn't hurt as much.
- [24:07]
D
And I always. Oh, really, Josh? Tell me more.
- [24:09]
C
I always remind myself, like, these are in many ways parasocial relationships. And, like, they think they know you. They think that you have a shorthand that doesn't exist, or they feel that way. I don't want to say think, because that, I think, is, like. Like insulting. And also a lot. In a lot of cases, they're projecting their shit onto you because they don't actually know who you are. Like, I've read things not so much about you, Eric, but about me and Patrick online that are just, like, not true.
- [24:40]
D
And I'm like.
- [24:41]
C
But, like, you don't know this person who you're talking about, and I do.
- [24:45]
D
And it's.
- [24:46]
C
It's just wild. I just listened to Beth's Dead. Have either of you listened to this?
- [24:52]
A
No.
- [24:53]
C
It's an incredible true crime adjacent podcast about podcasters who, like, are dealing with a parasocial situation over the course of, like, years of this listener of theirs who's, like, texting very personal or emailing very personal things. And it starts off as, like, oh, we're like a new up and coming show and we want to, like, talk to everyone who's listening. And, like, over the course of time, it gets, like, quite dangerous. And I just. It's so weird to think, like, I'm here in my office all by myself, like, telling a story, and it's reaching 100,000 people, and they are all having wildly different experiences of which I am a part of. It's so bizarre.
- [25:30]
D
Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, like, I. How do I say this? Like, even, like, saying, like, it's a parasocial relationship to me makes it. Makes it feel like I think I'm fancier than I am. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not a famous person, you know, I'm just a guy who makes a podcast some people listen to, and I really do want to meet everybody. I love the idea that, like, this all brings, you know, that. That this brings some people together, you know? You guys know, like, I'm a big promoter, proponent of community. I love people gathering in one place. Like, that's my favorite thing to do. It's. It's a tough thing to navigate because I'm just like that, you know? Like, I am just like them. They think I'm just like them. And I am. You know, I think, like, it's important.
- [26:12]
C
To note parasocial goes both ways. Like, I have parasocial relationships with listeners and other podcasts.
- [26:19]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally, totally. And so it is a thing where, like, you. You want to connect, you know, but you just want everyone to. We just all want everyone. They want me to behave respectfully. I want them to behave respectfully and. And kindly and, you know, and. But then at the same time, like, that kind of understanding, like, it doesn't translate. My husband doesn't understand why I want to, like, stay after the show and talk for another two hours, you know, And I'm just, like, I'm fed by it, you know? Like, I love meeting people and exchanging ideas.
- [26:50]
C
And, you know, I'll say, you, Amanda, and Charlie, I've never seen anything like it. You guys go out and immerse yourselves in ways that, like, as an introvert, like, I need to have, like, a gallon of wine to do. But, like, you are, like, at obsess fest, you were, like, at the bar. Anytime you had downtime or free time, you were at the bar talking to people. It was so important to you to engage with listeners in a way that I just have so much respect for. And, like, I do it on the Trova trips, but I think. Cause you're just, like, running on adrenaline, and it's like, like a compressed amount of time. But you, Charlie, and Amanda, like, really make sure to take care of all your listeners in a way that I am so humbled by.
- [27:28]
D
Wait, can I ask you about. I'm doing a trip to Greece this summer, and I'm very excited. Are they fun? Are we gonna have a good time?
- [27:35]
C
Yes. I. So I've done two. The third one's coming up. I. A lot of people have this misconception that they're like, murder trips. Like, we're not even talking about Israel Keys. Really. I, like, I will, like, benchmark an hour to talk about the podcast.
- [27:48]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:49]
C
And the rest, like, I've made lifelong friends with people who've been on these trips with me.
- [27:53]
D
That's what I'm talking about. I cannot. I'm so excited. I Cannot wait to go to Greece this summer.
- [27:58]
C
Eric, I feel like because of the nature of you reporting on your own brother, you probably have a lot of similar, like, people with, like, very strong emotional connections to you. Like, what. What is that, like? Because for Patrick and I, like, we've been talking about, like, the one thing that makes it okay is it's not personal, but for you, it is personal.
- [28:19]
A
Yeah. I think there's so many sides to that part of it. Like, there's the Internet troll that's going to come in and say something really awful to you. Like, one of the worst ones was he just wants to get rich off his dumb, dead brother.
- [28:32]
C
Oh, God.
- [28:32]
A
Oh. So you get that, but you also get people that are super invested in the case and, like, feel like they are in on what's going on behind the scenes. And they are, to a certain extent, but there's a lot that's held back. And so you get a lot of helpful, you know, advice and people trying to, you know, offer to assist. It's. That's been amazing just to get people talking about Jacob. It doesn't matter to me, like, if it's an Internet troll or if it's somebody that's highly invested or, you know, any of those things. The fact that people are even thinking about Jacob is amazing because when he died, there was no story, There was no news, there was no newspaper. There was nothing. So the fact that he gets to continue, you know, beyond anything that happened to him and really become the face of this movement to change things for families of the missing and murdered is really awesome. But, you know, I. I appreciate every listener and every person that shared Jacob's story, that signed the petition, that's. That's done anything. Even the ones that don't like me, Even the ones that talk shit about me, like, that's fine.
- [29:46]
D
Who doesn't like you? I'm in love with you, and I've known you for 35 minutes. That's insane. What's wrong with everybody?
- [29:54]
A
I don't know. I mean, I'm not the easiest person to get along with sometimes, maybe.
- [29:59]
D
What? That makes no sense to me.
- [30:02]
C
I mean, I think much like me when you put a little booze in Eric, we become, like, bitchy, mean gays.
- [30:09]
D
My favorite kind of gays.
- [30:10]
C
I know they're the best. You've, I think, done a lot of work to move that case forward. Um, can you tell other people about that? I know all about it. But tell the listeners, you know, how your podcast has made change in Jacob's case.
- [30:28]
A
Case.
- [30:28]
D
I don't know about the case. Will you, can I, will you tell me a little bit about it? Actually tell me and tell the true crime obsessed listeners about it and we'll all go listen to your podcast.
- [30:37]
A
It is really hard to hear, so I'm going to try to keep it. Not as heavy as it. As it is, but Jacob was a baby when he was killed. He was only nine months old. The only person in the room with him when he, he suffered blunt force head trauma was my mom's boyfriend at the time. A man who confessed twice to killing Jacob but was not prosecuted, was never charged and failed a polygraph, failed. Two very important questions like did you strike Jacob intentionally in the head area? And did you hit Jacob of. I know that those aren't really admissible or anything, but I think when you look at everything together, it, it's pretty compelling. So there's a problem because in New Mexico for first degree murder, you have to truly prove intent. And it's really hard, it's really hard to, to prove that. So the only, only charge they could do would be second degree murder. And then they were probably going to go negligently caused because it would be easier. But because of that, because that's how they classified it, the DA classified it that way. There was a second degree murder statute of limitations in New Mexico back then. And so that had lapsed and my mom and I had given up hope. We, we still kept trying every time there was a new DA every time, you know, we went to state police, asked them to, to use their cold case homicide unit to investigate it. The, the podcast, I didn't really start it to tell Jacob's story. I was just trying to help other people like my family be able to get their stories out there. And, and eventually when I learned that the statute of limitations had been overturned, my mom and I decided to talk about the case. And that was the first time we had ever talked about it together in 30 something years. And the audio quality is awful, so I'll apologize in advance if you listen to it. We were in my mom's mobile home and she kept moving her legs and so the mic stand was going everywhere and I'm like, mom, stop moving, moving. But, but there's a real authentic conversation there and some healing that happens that people get to hear. They get to hear that first conversation. And what, what happened with that was people cared and people started to ask what they could do. So we created this 10 days of Jacob campaign where we had people emailing writing, calling the da, and it was so much. I mean, it was from all over the world. Australia, the UK, everywhere. And he emailed me two days into the 10 days of Jacob saying, can you please make this stop? Like, this is too much. And he turned the case over to the Attorney General, which was, wow, huge. The Attorney General had it for three years. I'm gonna turn my gay on now.
- [33:55]
D
Thank you.
- [33:56]
A
They had it for three years, and they talked to one person, and then they said, oh, job well done, guys. We're going to close this case. We. We did our best to investigate it. There's nothing we can do. Have a good life. Oh, by the way, do you and your mom want to put your handprints in some plaster and put Jacob's name on it and hang it on our community tree so we can show people we care?
- [34:17]
C
Oh, my God.
- [34:18]
D
Yeah. Oh, my God.
- [34:20]
A
Oh, and also, by the way, the reason we can't go forward is because your mom gave him an alibi, which. Which she didn't, by the way. Spoiler alert. She did not give him an alibi. Nobody could alibi somebody who was alone with the victim. It's not possible.
- [34:33]
D
And who admitted to it twice.
- [34:34]
A
Yep. There's no recording, there's no transcript. There's no signed affidavit. There's nothing that indicates what he said, what conditions those confessions were given under. There's only one little note in the investigative file that says there's no need to administer a polygraph because the suspect confessed.
- [34:52]
D
Oh, my God.
- [34:54]
C
Nothing brings out my bitchy gay more than DA's interrogators and lazy FBI agents.
- [34:59]
A
Yeah.
- [35:00]
D
I mean, so where does the case stand now?
- [35:03]
A
It's closed.
- [35:04]
D
And is he. He's just out there.
- [35:06]
A
He's been free for 39 years. He's very abusive person, you know, towards my mom, towards me, towards my brother. There's a lot more to the story that is in that episode with my mom. Yeah, it's heavy stuff, but, yeah, he's been free to hurt whoever he wants, and it seems like nobody really cares about, like, in government anyway. Yeah.
- [35:30]
C
The true crime I love the most is where it's not just true crime. Like, it's, you know, it's storytelling that includes crime. And I think the conversation with your mom is, like, the pinnacle of that. It was. It's such a wonderful. Seems like a poor choice of word, but, like, it's such a rich listen, and I think there's a lot there. It's super nuanced, and I think That's. Those are the true crime stories I love the most, where it's more than just the crime. It's about anthropology or culture or personal relationships. And I think that's what yours was.
- [36:03]
D
Can I ask, Eric, will you tell the TCO listeners about Advocacy Con?
- [36:07]
A
Yeah. Well, I'm excited because we have a special guest attending AdvocacyCon. Can I say that yet?
- [36:15]
D
Who is it?
- [36:16]
C
Who?
- [36:16]
D
Oh, me?
- [36:17]
A
Yeah.
- [36:19]
D
Did you just set yourself up? I know. I was like, wait, who's coming? Oh, I'm coming, I'm coming. I can't wait. I mean, you know, we are so invested and we just love it. We're so happy that it exists. So, yeah, I can't wait. I'm very excited.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah. AdvocacyCon. So everything I said earlier, everything I do is with the idea of how can I make families like mine not feel like my family has felt for the last almost four decades? And so Advocacy Con was really an idea I had. I've attended a lot of true crime conferences. I think they definitely are valuable for families of the missing and murdered because you get to expose your case to a lot of people that may not see that case normally, but there was a lot missing, in my opinion, for the families. And so one of the things that I think is, as a listener and maybe even as a creator people may not consider is when you're put into this situation, you're not necessarily a PR person and you're not necessarily somebody who knows how to talk to police, to talk to medical investigators, to organize the community to get people on your side. Some people are just. Just regular people who happen to have, you know, a tragedy that happens. And so Advocacy Con really exists to create a place where families can learn from experts, from people that understand what they're going through because they've been through it from each other, and to interface with resources and organizations that can help them move their cases forward or at least give them some relief. It's trauma informed. We are going to have a therapist on site to triage. We're going to have an art healing room. We have meditation, yoga, all kinds of stuff to just really take care of the family, wrap them up in love, and, you know, try not to trigger them, but if they are triggered, make sure that there's resources available to help them get through that.
- [38:22]
D
That's incredible. Where has this been? Where has this been for the last 20 years?
- [38:28]
A
Right? Yeah, I don't know. I just. I realized that there was a big space, like a big hole in this. In this arena. And so I Feel like advocacy con fills that hole that sounded really meant. Have you ever seen a Mexican turn red from.
- [38:52]
C
I don't know how to transition out of that.
- [38:56]
A
There is no way to do that.
- [38:58]
D
Live here now.
- [39:01]
C
Let's talk about cases. So I don't really immerse myself in true crime anymore, because I. It's just like, I live in it. I come into this office, and it's just crime, crime all the time. But I did this year, for whatever reason, start listening to serialized these podcasts again. Like, are there. Yeah. I don't know what it was. I think maybe just the political environment we're in. I just needed something.
- [39:28]
D
Yes. I. I honestly, I turned off all my politics podcasts. The one that I listened to this year that I loved so much was who Took Misty Copsey? But, yeah, that was like a. That was because that was the Pacific Northwest. And I do think that Israel Keys is mentioned briefly as a. As a possibility for that one, but it was so, so good. I also. Did you guys listen to that Talina Czar podcast? It was, like, a woman who went missing during COVID and all of her friends, like, wanted it investigated. She's, like, an older woman, and it turned out that she was, like, a member. She was, like, in this, like, crazy relationship with a man where it was like this sort of, like, patriarchal cult. It was wild. That's all. That's all the information I have on I.
- [40:16]
C
All mine are like, like, true crime adjacent, but blink. Have you guys heard that?
- [40:21]
D
No.
- [40:22]
C
Oh, my God. It's about this guy who finds out he has this terminal disease and ends up in a. What's an awake coma? Where, like, he's in a coma for, like, months, but he can hear and feel everything. And, like, while he's in the coma, his girlfriend is talking to him, and she starts, like, telling him crazy shit where he suddenly is like, oh, I think she actually tried to kill me. And he's the only person to ever survive stage four of this disease. It's wild.
- [40:59]
D
Oh, my God, it's. So meanwhile, cut to me. I would totally be the boyfriend admitting to the attempted murder. Like, I would just be sitting there talking. That would definitely be me.
- [41:10]
C
And then Wild Boys, which is about the small town in Canada where these two teenage boys from the woods.
- [41:16]
D
Yes, yes. That's from, like, a couple years ago, I think. That was so good.
- [41:20]
C
Yeah. And then Javier, who does pretend his thing on Ladonna Humphrey was like, rivet. I text him all the time, like, what's going on? What's going on.
- [41:28]
D
Wait, who's Madonna Humphrey?
- [41:30]
A
Oh, my God. You are going to. You're going down a wormhole. And I'm so excited for you.
- [41:35]
C
And I do believe you covered her documentaries.
- [41:39]
D
Right? I was gonna say, that name sounds so familiar.
- [41:42]
C
She was in the true crime space, and basically, allegedly, it turned out she was, like, conning everybody and, like, bullying people behind the scenes and doing really, really dark up.
- [41:53]
D
What was the documentary?
- [41:55]
C
I don't know what hers is called, but the. The podcast.
- [41:58]
A
Melissa Wit.
- [41:59]
C
Yeah.
- [42:01]
D
Oh, yes, yes.
- [42:02]
C
But the podcast is called who's Afraid of ladonna Humphrey? And it is riveting.
- [42:08]
D
Oh, my God, Really?
- [42:10]
A
Yes.
- [42:10]
C
And it's wild to hear, like, a podcast about someone we all know or, like, have talked to.
- [42:16]
D
Oh, my God. I remember when we said that we were doing that, we got a lot of feedback about it.
- [42:22]
C
Well, yeah, Javier was like, I don't know if you should line me up with Patrick because I did send him some tweets about ladonna Humphrey, and I was like, oh, I don't think he would care at all.
- [42:31]
D
No, not at all. In fact, we were. We didn't respond to him because we didn't know if he was, like, a nice person or not. But it was because of him that we. I think we deleted the episode.
- [42:42]
C
Oh, really? Okay.
- [42:43]
D
I think so. But no, like, that's an example of, like, we were grateful for his feedback. Live Connect me. Hi, Javier. Let's be besties.
- [42:51]
C
What about you, Eric?
- [42:53]
A
Oh, well, so I trying to remember the. This podcast. So I can't remember. I was looking through my phone furiously trying to find it. It's a story similar to Jacob's, but since I can't remember it, I'm not going to be able to tell you. So I will say that a case that I follow very closely that I've been working on with the mom. I haven't done as much as she's done, by all means, but I had her on the show on True Consequences. It really touched me. His name was Zachariah Jawan Shorty, and he was an up and cominging rapper from the Navajo Nation. He was brutally killed and they just announced charges on his case last week. So I'm super excited. That case has been solved. It's been five years that Banji has been out there fighting for justice. She's going to be at Advocacy Con talking about that journey to justice. So that's super exciting. But that's one case that if you get a chance to listen to, it's a really tragic story, but I did include a lot of his music in my episode, and. And it was really an honor to be able to tell his story. And I'm so excited is not the right word, but I'm so happy that Vanjie is getting closer to getting justice for her baby boy.
- [44:02]
C
Incredible. I couldn't go last year, but I want to go this year because I always think of the best session I've ever seen at a conference was you and Julie Murray talking about the impact of true crime commercializing her case. And, like, she's such a great speaker, and you are such a great interviewer, and it was just my favorite session I've ever seen. It was so good.
- [44:26]
D
Can we talk about media pressure for a minute? Because, like, the podcast media pressure. I was on pins and needles, and I was. I was. I would talk to Julia a little bit about it because she was really nervous about, like, going into podcasting, and she didn't know if she'd be good at it or not. And I would. Every week, I would message her and be like, this is so. Last week's episode was the best episode of any podcast I ever heard. This week's is better than that. And it, like, I couldn't believe the writing of it. Like, I mean, it was so beautifully written. It was obviously produced by Sarah Turney, you know, and I just. Both of them, I couldn't. I need another season. Sarah promises they're gonna make another one. But, like, it was. Not only was there, like, new information, which is obviously interesting for anybody who cares about that case, which. Everybody should care about that case. Everybody should care about every case. But it was. It was just so beautifully written from the heart, from the family. It was like, rip your heart out. Honesty, like, you know, talking with the family, dealing with what it's been like to be probably one of the highest profile true crime cases. And. And I know Julie gave so much of herself. Like, it was emotionally exhausting for her to do that. And she's such an incredible woman, and every now and then, she will fire emoji. One of my workout pictures, because she. She is the original beast. Like, she is the original CrossFit beast. Yeah.
- [45:54]
C
I remember the first time I met her being like, I would never want to be on her bad side because she could annihilate me.
- [46:01]
D
I was on her bad side for five minutes, and I righted that wrong right quick.
- [46:09]
C
Oh, the other one is the curse of America's Next Top Model. Anyone? Oh, my God. It's. It's an investigative podcast looking at America's Next Top Model and how, like, horrible and problematic it was.
- [46:22]
D
Are we both. Eric, are we both going to subscribe right now?
- [46:25]
A
Say less. Say less.
- [46:27]
D
Say less. Say less. Josh, shut up.
- [46:28]
C
Yeah, I could not listen to it fast enough. They interview contestants. Look, we're. And we're actually good friends with a contestant who lives here in the Berkshires. And, like, the few bits of pieces like he's told us while hammered are shocking.
- [46:43]
D
Told while hammered. The Patrick Hines story. Oh, my God. Oh, I'm so excited.
- [46:52]
C
And it just finished, so you can, like, binge the whole series now.
- [46:55]
D
Oh, I mean, oh, my God. Oh, my God.
- [47:00]
C
Well, on that note, I think our hours up, but this has been so fun. This is why I love doing these because it really does create community and we get to have conversations we couldn't otherwise online.
- [47:11]
D
Yes. You guys, we need to hang out. Josh, you got to come to Advocacy Cons. We can all hang out together.
- [47:16]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will.
- [47:18]
A
Awesome.
- [47:20]
C
All right, boys.
- [47:21]
D
This was so fun. Thank you for including me. This was incredible.
- [47:24]
C
Yeah, of course. Thanks for joining us, and have a great holiday, you guys.
- [47:27]
D
Yeah, same to you.
- [47:28]
C
Bye. Bye, fam.
- [47:31]
B
Thanks for checking out this conversation with Patrick, Josh Hallmark, and Eric Carter. Landon, you can find descriptions and links to true crime Bullshit, Unsafe Spaces, True Consequences, and Advocacy con in the show Notes. Like I mentioned, later this month, we'll be sharing Jillian's conversation with Laney Hobbs from True Crime Cases and Alvin Williams from Affirmative Murder. So stay tuned for that. We'll drop it in the feed in maybe a week or so. Okay, love you, fam. Bye.