478: Hunted by My Husband: The Untold Story of the DC Sniper

Summary

True Crime Obsessed Episode 478

Hunted by My Husband: The Untold Story of the DC Sniper

Release Date: December 30, 2025
Hosts: Patrick Hines & Jillian Bezavoli
Main Documentary: “Hunted by My Husband: The Untold Story of the DC Sniper” (HBO Max)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the HBO Max true crime documentary “Hunted by My Husband,” which reframes the infamous DC sniper attacks as rooted in a horrifying—yet rarely discussed—story of domestic abuse. Patrick and Jillian recap not just the terrifying murder spree, but, most importantly, the years-long abuse endured by Dr. Mildred Muhammad, the ex-wife of John Allen Muhammad (the DC Sniper). The episode pushes listeners to consider the intersections of domestic violence, systemic failures, and high-profile tragedy, all while bringing their signature humor and heart to the discussion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene (03:16–08:25)

• Recap of the 2002 DC sniper attacks: Over 23 days, random people are shot and killed in Washington D.C., Maryland, and Virginia, creating city-wide panic.
  • “It just seems to me so crazy there would be a sniper madman on the loose.” – Jillian (06:07)
• Victims’ randomness amplified the terror, with public life coming to a standstill as authorities received thousands of tips, mostly targeting "white vans."
  • “Everyone’s reporting every white van. You don’t realize how many there are until you say you’re looking for one.” – Jillian (08:17)

The Early Investigation—Mistakes and Panic (07:56–10:08)

• The focus on white vans led investigators astray; one wrong description resulted in “tunnel vision,” with crucial evidence about a blue Chevrolet Caprice being overlooked—even when reported by a concerned friend of Mildred Muhammad.
  • “We were flooded with calls about white vans. We got tunnel vision and totally missed this.” – Jillian (16:33)

First Glimpses of John and Mildred Muhammad (22:02–27:00)

• Mildred’s backstory is introduced, painting a picture of an independent, optimistic woman whose life unravels as her husband’s control tightens.
• Early red flags: John’s jealousy over their child, small but telling acts of coercion (e.g., naming the baby John despite agreed plans), and escalating control and isolation.
  • "He gets incredibly jealous of his own child." – Patrick (25:45)
  • "If I told him I liked something...it would no longer be there. So I stopped." – Mildred (29:04)
• Expert insight: Dr. Carolyn West emphasizes the insidious nature of gaslighting and coercive control.
  • “Gaslighting is a powerful form of psychological abuse, coercive control, and manipulation.” – Dr. West (28:38)

Systemic Failures & Escalation (29:50–43:55)

• After returning to the U.S., John’s abuse becomes more financial and emotional: sabotaging their joint business, stealing money, cheating, and destroying things Mildred loved.
• When Mildred attempts to leave, the abuse escalates; John manipulates police response due to his name being on the lease, sneaks into her home at night, and threatens her life.
  • "You have become my enemy, and as my enemy, I will kill you." – John (through Mildred, 46:35)
• The legal system fails repeatedly: police refuse to intervene, Mildred is told there's "nothing they can do" because of a lack of a formal custody agreement.

The Kidnapping of the Children (50:10–60:11)

• Children abducted: John absconds with the children for 17 months, moving them (and new "son" Lee Malvo) across state and international lines, often under fake names.
  • “I went from having a 10-year marriage, three kids, a thriving business, to having to live in a shelter because I'm afraid for my life and I don't know where my kids are.” – Mildred (53:19)
• Mildred’s resilience: She takes paralegal courses herself, puts alerts in place, and works with a private investigator to locate and recover her children.
• Systemic issues: No Amber Alert, no support forthcoming. Mildred’s effort and ingenuity are what finally get her children home.
  • “I'm so sick and tired of being amazing, of having to do it all myself.” – Patrick, quoting Dakota Fanning in “All Her Fault” (54:45)

Root Cause of the Sniper Attacks (61:01–65:31)

• The revelation: John Muhammad orchestrated the sniper attacks to create cover for murdering Mildred, planning to make her look like a random victim, then gain custody of his children as the “grieving father.”
  • “He killed all of these people so that he could kill her—and then make it look like she was just a victim.” – Jillian (63:16)
• Legal failures: Despite clear connections between domestic abuse, kidnapping, and the subsequent murders, the judge refuses to allow these elements at trial, framing the case only as terrorism.
  • “This judge didn’t see a connection for whatever reason.” – Patrick (67:26)
• Expert commentary connects the dots between private abuse and public tragedy, demanding that larger society attends to the warning signs before abuse spills over into mass harm.

Aftermath, Justice, and Legacy (68:50–End)

• John Muhammad is executed in 2009. Lee Malvo, groomed as a “throwaway kid,” receives life in prison. Dr. Mildred testifies on his behalf after he kept her children relatively safe during their abduction.
  • “My children said he looked out for us when dad wasn’t there.” – Mildred (68:29)
• Dr. Mildred’s advocacy: She channels her pain into national and global activism for domestic violence awareness—eventually awarded an honorary doctorate in 2025 for her work.
  • “Now Dr. Mildred travels the world talking about her experience, making change happen.” – Patrick (70:58)
• Final reflection: Domestic abuse is often minimized as “private,” yet its reach can devastate entire communities if unaddressed.
  • “It shouldn’t have to take that [mass tragedy] for us to care.” – Dr. West (70:27)
• Resource shared: Listeners encouraged to visit NoExcuseForAbuse.com for domestic violence support.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “At its heart, the DC Sniper case was always a domestic violence case. And it's one no one wanted to look at that way.” – Jillian (64:16)
• “If she told him she liked something...he would find some way to destroy it or take it away. So she stopped.” – Patrick (29:15)
• “Being a good guy is exhausting. He just doesn’t have it in him.” – Patrick (40:39)
• “They said to her, how can you see yourself as a victim in this? Your kids weren't killed, you weren't killed. Nothing happened to you yet.” – Jillian (67:57)
• “I'm so sick and tired of being amazing.” – Patrick (54:45) (originally Dakota Fanning, resonating with Mildred's story)
• “It’s a sickness we all need to care about more...Because it has ripple effects you can’t imagine.” – Patrick (70:27)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:16 – Introduction to the DC Sniper case and early investigation
• 10:08 – The police make a fatal error by focusing on the wrong vehicle
• 22:02 – Dr. Mildred Muhammad’s story begins
• 28:38 – Expert analysis: gaslighting and coercive control in abuse
• 40:49 – John threatens to kill Mildred after declaring her his “enemy”
• 50:10 – The children are kidnapped; Mildred’s 17-month ordeal begins
• 61:01 – The killer’s motive is revealed: a cover for domestic violence
• 65:31 – The sniper car is found; the plan uncovered in full
• 68:29 – Dr. Mildred testifies for Lee Malvo, showing empathy for another manipulated victim
• 70:58 – Dr. Mildred’s advocacy and national recognition

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Tone & Style

The discussion balances gravity with the hosts’ signature humor and empathy, using banter and pop culture references to make the tragic content more approachable—never minimizing the gravity of abuse or murder. The hosts are at times irreverent, but deeply respectful toward the survivors and victims.

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Summary Takeaways

True Crime Obsessed’s coverage of "Hunted by My Husband" delivers a harrowing and necessary reframing of the D.C. sniper story. The episode pulls the listener through the history of a high-profile crime while unwaveringly centering the ignored, vital story of Dr. Mildred Muhammad—her resilience, suffering, and perseverance. By focusing the lens on domestic abuse, Patrick and Jillian urge listeners and society at large to heed the red flags before private violence spills out into public tragedy.

Transcript

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course he did.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Thank you so much. I'm very articulate.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

It is not crap.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

But we're kind of giving it away like it is right now.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

That is true. Absolutely true. Just click the link in the show notes and go a shopping.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Have fun.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Have fun. Well, the holidays are upon us.

[Patrick Hines]

They are.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

They're here.

[Patrick Hines]

Tis the damn season, you know, almost.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

That's all.

[Patrick Hines]

That's all. Happy, happy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Hi. Jillian Bezavoli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Fam.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Don't forget we've got a Facebook group. It's the True Crime Obsessed Podcast discussion group.

[Patrick Hines]

It sure is.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Almost 60,000 people in there hanging out, having a good time.

[Patrick Hines]

That's it.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Being besties.

[Patrick Hines]

That's exactly right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

What else do we have to tell them?

[Patrick Hines]

YouTube.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, my goodness. We are almost at like 180,000 YouTube subscribers.

[Patrick Hines]

That is crazy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I've been watching our full episodes and they're great. They're Self Portrait.

[Patrick Hines]

I think you can tell that they're really good.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Listen, we did an episode about Lilith Fair and that was our final bonus episode of the year. I strongly, strongly suggest everyone go and watch that episode because I basically am levitating 5ft off the ground. I'm screaming. It is the most me, I think I've ever been on this podcast.

[Patrick Hines]

You peak, you peak me.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Peak me.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, we just wanna say happy holidays, Happy everything. Happy New Year. Because we're taking. You know, we're gonna be dark next week. Week. And then we'll be back, like, in 2026, which is insane.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Can we say Happy Lunar New Year?

[Patrick Hines]

We can say happy every. Happy everything is what I like. So be safe, you know, happy and healthy to you and yours. We love you.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

No falling over the deck on cruise ships. Okay? Like, if I can ask you one thing, can you all stay on the cruise ships?

[Patrick Hines]

Our Christmas wish.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Thank you.

[Patrick Hines]

That everyone is safe and happy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

What are we talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God. Hunted by my husband, the untold story of the D.C. sniper on HBO Max. The sniper shootings have been in Maryland, D.C. and Virginia, and the fear is spreading. Somebody's been shot down. My husband has been shot.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

There's blood all over.

[Expert/Investigator]

Two snipers in a white van. That's all we had. We were getting pips by the thousands, but we were chasing ghosts. When you have the President of the United States inquiring, what's the progress? There's pressure.

[Patrick Hines]

The crime scene was being searched. A tarot card was found that said, for you, Mr. Police, call me God.

[Expert/Investigator]

He was in control. He decided who lived and who died.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

The FBI said, Ms. Muhammad, didn't you know you were the target. You're that sniper's wife. The man that I married was a complete stranger. Gaslighting, coercive, control manipulation.

[Patrick Hines]

John kidnapped the children.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

He was a ticking time bomb girl.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

We were talking before we started. This is a really good documentary.

[Patrick Hines]

It's excellent. And it talks about a lot of stuff we should be talking about.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yep. And it's a totally unknown. We've covered the DC sniper before, but we. Not this story. Like, this is a completely unknown story. Basically, like, solving the mystery as to why they did this in the first place.

[Patrick Hines]

And then some.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And then some.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's October 2002.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

A serial sniper is terrorizing D.C. and does so for 23 days.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. And we're gonna go through these victims sort of quickly, not because they' stories are not important, but because we've. We've told that story on this podcast. The documentary goes through it kind of quickly to get to the story of our protagonist here.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So we don't really linger on the deaths of these first. What is it? 10 people?

[Patrick Hines]

It's 10 people.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's October 2, 2002, day one. This poor man was killed in the.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Parking lot of Shoppers Food Warehouse. I remember thinking, oh, that poor guy.

[Patrick Hines]

Was it a stray bullet? Because at that time, that's what we thought it was. Victim number one is James Martin. He's 55 years old. He was shot and killed in a parking lot going food shopping. And the through line that we're going to hear is, like, everything these people were doing, it was like a totally normal, mundane boy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Do you remember this? I was wondering today if you were. Because we're. We are just enough apart in age that there are times, like in the 90s that we miss. Like, I remember watching this, like, glued to the tv.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Well, it was right. We learned that it was right after 9 11, obviously, a year ago that, like, D.C. was still really on high alert. And I was in New York, obviously, for 9 11. So I think it definitely, in my memory of it, it definitely felt like, what? Like, again, you know, like the start of the millennial. Like we were sick of living through historical traumatic events.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just seems to me so crazy that there would be a sniper madman on the loose. Because day two, October 3rd. Five people are killed that day. Five random shootings in the D.C. area.

[Patrick Hines]

Because on the first day, I just wanted to say, like, at first everyone thinks it's a stray bullet, and of course they do. No one is jumping to sniper terrorizing dc. You're just like, what was this? Oh, weird. Like, they just thought it was some kind of freak accident.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. And like, so day two, it's James Buchanan Jr. He was 39. Prem Kumar Whaleker, 54. Sarah Ramos, 34. Lori Louis Rivera, 25. And then Pascal Charlotte, who was 72.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So five in one day.

[Patrick Hines]

Five shootings in one day, six in about 24 hours. And all of these people have been killed.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now, like, a lot of agencies are here. Again, it was right after. It was a year after 9, 11 in D.C. we have the local police, state police, FBI, ATF. And they're like, are these connected? Is this a serial killer? Is this a terrorist attack? Like, what is happening?

[Expert/Investigator]

ATF were able to quickly determine that this was a.223 caliber, which is a high powered, very fast bullet. And they were fired from the same weapon. These are all connected.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So, like, pretty quickly they're like, yeah, these have to be connected.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, they describe it as a high powered, very fast bullet, all fired from the same gun. So there's one shooter, but the victims themselves were not connected at all. Like, they didn't know each other. They were different ages and races, genders. And it's all happening at random, like normal places, shopping centers, gas stations.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And that's what made it so terrifying was like, anybody could be next. This could literally happen to anybody.

[Patrick Hines]

There's no rhyme or reason. It's just sort of like, oh, my God.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

The one thing that, like, they seem to have in common was that they were like, in open public spaces, like gas stations and parking lots. I remember that being like. Like, nobody wanted to get gas. Nobody wanted to go outside.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so someone sees a white van driving away from a shooting location. So the first call out is, we're looking for two white guys in a nondescript white van with military experience. And I'm like, in Washington D.C. right on top of that rose.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it's almost worse than no leads at all. That's how it's that overwhelming.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

But it is worse because it clogs. Everybody's reporting every white.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone's boyfriend, everyone's husband, everyone's somebody's like.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You don't realize how many white vans are until you, like, say you're looking for a no girl. Like, all you see anytime is white.

[Patrick Hines]

Vans and people with military experience in Washington D.C. like, come on.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know. You gotta sing it sometimes a little.

[Patrick Hines]

Bit of a lower octave.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It's because I'm hydrated.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yep. So October 4th, day three. Caroline Seawell is 43 years old now. She survived.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And now we're in Virginia and she's victim number seven. And this means that Virginia State Police are now brought in and someone's like, this was growing like a monster.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Well, and the one thing they were saying was that the kids seemed to be safe. No one, none of the people who have been shot have been children. None of the victims have been of anything close to school age. None of the locations are close to the schools. So please continue with that day. I think the school kids are safe.

[Expert/Investigator]

Chief Moose was trying to set parents at ease, but the snipers were listening to every word that the media was putting out there.

[Patrick Hines]

The cops are going on TV saying, don't worry, it's safe to send your kids to school. And then by the fourth day, this poor 13 year old kid and he survives. Yeah, but like now that everyone's like, wait, are they responding to what the cops Are saying, like, yeah, this has to be a message. So they're closing the schools. All activities are canceled. Everyone's terrified. People are told to walk and run in zigzags to avoid the sniper.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

That's like, if Florida is bad enough that you got to do that for the alligators, I got to tell you.

[Patrick Hines]

My DMs are full of conflicting information. Some people are saying, don't do that. Some people are saying, do that with crocs and gators.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So I don't know what the truth.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Is anymore when it comes to crocs and gators.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Some people say you absolutely should. Some people say you should not at all.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Can I ask you one question?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know what to do anymore.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Do you know the difference between an alligator and a crocodile? Do you want me to. Do you want me to tell you?

[Patrick Hines]

I would love if you could tell me.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Well, an alligator will see you later. A crocodile will see you after a while.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what? That does track.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And where did I hear. Do you know who I heard that from? Joe.

[Patrick Hines]

Joe who?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Joe fam. I'm going to do it every time.

[Patrick Hines]

So the police are searching the woods around the schooled, and a tarot card was found. On one side of the tarot card, it said, for you, Mr. Police, do not release to the press. And on the other side, it was, call me God. Call me God. I just have to chime in here, please.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I knew you'd have something to say here.

[Patrick Hines]

The death card is probably the most misunderstood card in the whole deck. Oh, it's actually. I find it really positive. Like, it's about, like, out with the old, in with the new. Like, something has to end for you to go on this new journey. Like, it's not like you're going to die tomorrow. Which is also what. Not what tarot reading is, but it's about, like, releasing old attachments and. And moving on to something that serves you. So it's. Is it an ending? Yes. Is it an ominous card? No. I actually love the death card.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Can I tell you, there was a holiday party we used to go to every year where they had a tarot card reader. Like, one of the things they had. And I always love getting my tarot cards read.

[Patrick Hines]

It's great.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It feels very. I'm like, but this is a holiday party. You're not going to tell me anything bad. I know. You're not going to be like, oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, like, that's like, also not what tarot cards do.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Tarot cards only Tell you positive stuff.

[Patrick Hines]

No, but they all. They don't, like, read your future either.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

They don't.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not like a fortune teller. No, it's like, I see it as, like, creative problem solving.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So then anybody can do it. You don't have to be born with the gift.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, you don't have to be born with a gift. But I think, like, it's all about your intuition. I think you have to ask the right questions. Like, if I saw the death card, I would tell you what it means and then ask if that resonates with you at all.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Instead of. It's really about, like, what you as the reader. Sorry, everyone.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You wouldn't have survived 10 minutes in Salem. They would have gotten you right. One of those stakes.

[Patrick Hines]

Two seconds.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Two seconds.

[Patrick Hines]

Two seconds. I mean, I would be dead, but I'd be like, see, it's all in the cards. No, it has to do with, like, how you can, like, perceive the cards and translate them, I guess, to the person that you're doing the reading for and then be like, if this doesn't make any sense to you, then we can move on and pull a clarification card and see what. What's good.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Bottom line, you're a good witch.

[Patrick Hines]

I am. Absolutely.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You travel by bubble also.

[Patrick Hines]

I do also. Bottom line, this person doesn't know anything. Anything. They choose the death card.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It's what all these idiots always do.

[Patrick Hines]

But. And in this, like, all that aside, it's a very negative thing in this circumstance, obviously.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Because basically, one of our experts is.

[Expert/Investigator]

Like, we're looking for somebody that's nuts, that has now has a God complex, and no one knew who the next victim was going to be. He was in control. He decided who lived. He decided who died.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I do love that they're like, this person is insane. Whoever is obviously is crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

But what's crazy is that whoever's doing this is totally in control. They have no leads. They have no way of stopping him. So they're just waiting for him to strike again and hope the person survives. That's kind of all they can do. They're telling us.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

What they're not really talking about in this documentary, too, is like. Like, these rivals are being shot from very far away. So whoever is doing this obviously is doing it either from the woods or doing it from, like. And when you think about this, I remember having this thought back in the moment of, like, thank God we live in a world where this doesn't happen all the time. How can it be this easy? To just like, have like a reign of terror and nobody has any idea who you are, what you look like, where you are, what's next.

[Patrick Hines]

It's terrifying.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Terrifying.

[Patrick Hines]

So now it's been seven days since the shooting spree began. There are six people dead, two survivors. Everything is a mess. It's a media circus. People are terrified. There's pressure on law enforcement, obviously.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because basically the city is like, essentially shut down.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

As much as it could be.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So day eight, October 9, 2002. Dean Myers, 53 years old, is shot and killed. Gas stations are putting up tarps to, like, protect people so they can get gas, but not really. They're putting up tarps that like, don't go all the way to the ground. I'm like, do better. Gas station.

[Patrick Hines]

Absolutely terrifying.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Then October 11, 2002, day 10. Kenneth Bridges, 53 years old, shot and killed the president.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Is George Bush taking an active interest, like calling every five minutes, being like, girl, what is happening?

[Patrick Hines]

What is going on? Also, all these politicians live there.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's like, it's pretty personal to them as well.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, interesting. When gun violence comes. Comes a knock in, suddenly we care. Huh? Politicians. Interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what my thoughts and prayers. So the tips are. Which is usually bad, honestly, because then they're inundated with, oh, it was my ex husband or it was my brother's.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Friend or In a wet van. Yeah, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So Dr. Mildred Muhammad lives in D.C. with her kids. She, like everyone else, has been terrified for weeks.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Her friend comes to pick her up for work and her friend is like, there's a dark colored car outside. It has bad vibes. I do not like this car.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She calls it in. She calls it to the police, but.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

No one came to investigate. They were overwhelmed with the number of white vans that were in the area.

[Expert/Investigator]

And we fell for the classic investigators mistake that you never do. And that's tunnel vision. The Caprice just slips on through and the police will.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

They are here to say, we were flooded with calls about white vans. We got tunnel vision and we totally missed this.

[Patrick Hines]

This is a Chevrolet Caprice with New Jersey plates and a dark car.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

To be fair, like. Like, they have a lot going on right now. They're like, oh, a parked car. That's. We're looking for a white van. This is a dark color parked car. Like, I appreciate the bad vibes, but it got lost in the shuffle. I can understand why it didn't get their full attention. Sure. But one of the investigators is like, oh, we totally screwed up. We did the one thing you're never supposed to do, and that's get tunnel vision. And we did it.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, and like, ultimately, when we learn about, like, like, who it is and what the car is, like, good Anya, Good Samaritan, who was like, call the cops on this creepy car?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it was her friend who was like, I don't like that. Yeah, I really don't like this. We will, of course, get back to that. It's October 14, 2002. Day 13. 43 year old Linda Franklin is killed.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She's an FBI analyst.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like one of their own working on this case.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So now it's like, oh, my God, like, how closely are they following this now? They're killing off the people who are investigating them.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It's an international story. Day 18, October 19th. Jeffrey Hooper, age 37. He lives. And at that crime scene, they find another note. I know for you, Mr. Police. Call me God. Do not release to the press. And like, once again, they're like, this is. Again, like, this could have gone on forever.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Same exact wording as the last note. And they're like, okay. But the cops are still like, what do we do? Like, we're just waiting for him. And hopefully again, everyone will survive. But not everyone did.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

No. Day 21, Oct. 22. Conrad Johnson, 35. He shot and killed. Finally, a tip comes in from a priest in Ashland, Virginia.

[Expert/Investigator]

The priest told us that he had gotten an anonymous call from a man confessing to be the sniper and that we were looking in the wrong place. We needed to look at a liquor store robbery and a killing in Montgomery, Alabama. We took all tips very, very seriously. But this turned out to be a big break in the case, and they.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Needed to be looking at a liquor store robbery in Montgomery, Alabama. So they go to check it out. This happened 11 days before the D.C. sniper spree started. And they say, like, at this liquor store robbery, there was a shooting. One woman was killed. One woman survived, but the killer, fleeing the scene, dropped a magazine out of his back pocket like a fucking moron.

[Patrick Hines]

It's basically Sniper Monthly.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, but literally, I don't even know what it's.

[Patrick Hines]

It doesn't. They don't even say what it's called.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Zodiac Killer Weekly.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, it says, what is it? Armalite catalog number eight.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

A history of innovation. The thing, the. The image that they show us is a guy looking through a Maglite. Right?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Is that what that's called?

[Patrick Hines]

Whatever it's called a Maglite. Whatever.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

How do I know what that Word.

[Patrick Hines]

Is the thing you look through.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, wait, we can do this. It's a. It's a. It's like the. It's a.

[Patrick Hines]

The gunsight.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

The cross. The gunsight.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

What's a Maglite?

[Patrick Hines]

Is that like a big flashlight?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes. I think you're right, guys. We make a true crime.

[Patrick Hines]

Can we talk about the death card? I'm good.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You want to talk about Lilith Fairmore.

[Patrick Hines]

We'Re going to talk about freaking Sniper.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know, I know, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

But it's essentially Sniper Monthly and there's.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

A fingerprint on it.

[Patrick Hines]

Sorry. For everyone who subscribes to this magazine. If you're not the DC Sniper, I'm not talking about you. They get a fingerprint, they run it, and it belongs to someone named Lee Malvo. He's from Jamaica, he's got a criminal record, and we're told he's a juvenile. And I'm like, what?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

But then this name triggers a memory. And another FBI guy who remembers another tip that they got called in from Washington state. And the guy that called on the tip said, those shootings you're having out.

[Expert/Investigator]

East, I believe it's a friend of mine. And he had this kid with him. He called him Sniper, but his name was Malvo. Him and the kid were practicing shooting a.223 caliber rifle into a stump I have in the backyard.

[Patrick Hines]

They were firing it into this old tree stump I have. If you want to come take a look. The feds are like, huh?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

We'll be right there. They do the Scooby Doo legs.

[Patrick Hines]

They're like, knock, knock, knock. Everyone's like, at this guy's house, and they find some bullet fragments in the tree stump, and guess what? It's a match.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So like now they've got names. They had Lee Malvo from the fingerprint, but now they've got the name of John Muhammad, who's the friend of this tipster who's like, I think my friend is doing the shooting. So now it's two men, not one girl. Shopify is back. Look, 2026 going to be the best year on record to start that business you've been thinking about, right?

[Patrick Hines]

So here's the deal. So Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. It does both.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. Millions of entrepreneurs have already made leap from household names to first time business owners. Just getting started, right?

[Patrick Hines]

So Shopify gives you all the tools to easily build your dream store. No matter what it is, you can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize to match your brand.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, my God, they make it so easy. Setup is fast with Shopify's built in AI tools that write product descriptions and headlines and help you edit product photos.

[Patrick Hines]

Marketing is built in too, so you can create email and social campaigns that reach customers wherever they scroll. So about getting eyes on what you got.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. And fam. As you grow, Shopify grows with you. Handle more orders, expand new markets, and do it all from the same dashboard.

[Patrick Hines]

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Go to shopify.com obsessed.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

That's shopify.com obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

Hear your first this new year with Shopify.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

With Shopify by your side. We didn't even do that on purpose, but it works.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, john Muhammad, who the hell is this guy? They tell us he's divorced. He just lost custody of his kids. He's furious. And he's especially furious at his wife who lives in Maryland. And guess who she is.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

She's Dr. Mildred Muhammad. She called in about the parked car near her house that her friend said had bad vibes.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, that was her. We met her five minutes ago.

[Patrick Hines]

The DC sniper is her ex husband. And she's like, how did I get here? And I'm like, mildred, tell us everything. Dr. Mildred. We're going back in time now.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

This is Dr. Mildred's story. We have known the case of the D.C. sniper for decades.

[Patrick Hines]

Never since 2002.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Never heard of this woman. It's one of the greatest, like, tragedies in American history, and we've never heard this story. This documentary is wild.

[Patrick Hines]

Buckle up, everyone.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Buckle up.

[Patrick Hines]

Buttercup, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1985.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Sounds warm.

[Patrick Hines]

It does. It sounds swampy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Beautifully warm.

[Patrick Hines]

Swampy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It's freezing in New York.

[Patrick Hines]

Dr. Mildred says John can make friends with anyone. He was charming. He was the life of the party.

[Expert/Investigator]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Michael Jones is Mildred's first cousin. You know what? Love the attention to detail. First cousin.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, first cousin. We're gonna learn later. Private detective.

[Patrick Hines]

And don't you forget it. First cousin.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

But, you know, the cousin says, like, this guy John, he was a total gentleman. And you know what? My cousin Mildred was not about to settle for anything less than we hear.

[Patrick Hines]

This all the time. And that's why it makes things hard to see, because everything is great at first, for the most part. You know what I mean? So first cousin Michael was in the marines. John was in the army.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Dr. Mildred moved from Louisiana to Washington. To be with him. She's like, I really, really loved him. Like, of course I wanted to be with him. So, yeah, I moved.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And not only did she move to get married a month later, March 10, 1998.

[Patrick Hines]

Myisha, her sister'. Everyone was really excited. It was a really happy day.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. And, like, this is where Dr. Mildred is here to say, like, my wedding.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Day was filled with everything I hoped it would be. On our wedding night, John said, we're gonna be together for 99 years. We will never be apart. So we're stuck with each other.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Commitment for life. Ride or die.

[Patrick Hines]

So one year later, Dr. Mildred is pregnant once again. Everyone is thrilled. She's happy. He's happy. The friends and family are happy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She's got one request. She's got one requ because they decided that if it was a boy, John was going to name him.

[Patrick Hines]

John got to. He got to pick the name. Yes, I guess. Like, no. No, veto. Nothing. Like, he just picks the name.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And she's like, that's great. I've got one request. Could you not name him John? Don't name him after you. That's all I ask. He says, I promise, no problem.

[Patrick Hines]

I'll give you one guess what he named the kid.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

John.

[Patrick Hines]

John. And it's weird and it's annoying, but Dr. Mildred lets it go. She explains. She's like, I'm not going to argue. Like, I just gave birth. The baby's healthy. I just want to have my healthy baby.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

However it.

[Patrick Hines]

From where we're sitting, super not cool.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Major red flag. And it's a small sign of things to come. But in the moment, she's like, either I could pick this fight.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Or I could celebrate with my husband about the baby I just delivered through my body and, like, kind of not let it hit me how big of a deal this is.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Okay. And I get it. And Mildred is very measured. You know what I mean? She is obviously a brilliant woman.

[Expert/Investigator]

Yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She's picking her battles, but, like, that's just, like, some fuckery. Right?

[Patrick Hines]

And the point is, like, he'd never done that before.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, she's not like, oh, my God, again, Like, she. It didn't feel like she was letting anything go and that it was a sign of things to come. She was just like, okay, whatever.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

I just want to. My baby's healthy. I love my husband. Whatever.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I don't. I don't have that.

[Patrick Hines]

The ability to let it go.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. Like, I can let lots of shit go. This is one of the. We can Move on. But, like, this is one of those things where I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Patrick Hines]

It feels so pointed. And it's just the beginning.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And then he does something. And we have heard this a lot. I just will never understand it.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Our relationship changed when he recognized that I was spending a lot of time with little John, and he couldn't understand why he wasn't getting that much attention anymore. He would be upset because I picked the baby up a lot.

[Patrick Hines]

He gets incredibly jealous of his own child. Like, he doesn't want his own baby to be getting the attention. So much so that this piece of shit didn't want Dr. Mildred to comfort her baby when he cried. And, like, it's objectively crazy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so weird.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, you're talking to the parent who could not do the sleep training. I'm like, I could not let my baby, like, be in the room and cry herself.

[Patrick Hines]

Let me be very, very clear. This is not a commentary on how you should comfort your child. I think everyone listening is like, oh, no, you should feel something when your baby cries.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he didn't want any. I'm not here for the argument. I don't know shit about when it comes to nobody.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I don't think anybody thinks that because it's so common in what we do. To see this, it's like, the first thing is exerting the control over the baby. Now all of a sudden, he's jealous of his own kid.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, then she would, like, want to tend to the baby, and he'd be annoyed and upset and furious that the baby's getting more attention. Like, that's fudgeing. It's crazy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And that it escalates so fast, like, to, like, being jealous of the kid to. Now he's got to destroy everything she likes. She has this one dress that she loves that she feels beautiful, and suddenly it disappears. Her favorite jacket, which she loves so much that she's got archival footage of her wearing it. Yeah, it's this, like, green teal jacket. She looks great in it. She misses it to this day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I just want to sl on this because now it's April 1990, and the family moves to Germany because John's been transferred there because he's in the military. So Dr. Mildred says it was really difficult to make friends. And I'm like, whose idea was that? John's.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Well, because they also not. They're not living on the base. They're living, like, in an apartment somewhere else.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, did he decide that? Of course, to isolate her. She can't even be with her own baby. I'm sure he's not going to be happy about a girlfriend that she makes.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

So this dress that she loved was like, her go to dress. He said to her, he's like, why are you always wearing that dress? And she goes, I love this dress.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She felt good in it. So he had to destroy it.

[Patrick Hines]

And a few days later, it's. And then he would gaslight her about it. He's like, you probably threw it out. And she was like, I would never.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

No. And then the same thing with her jacket, which, as I was saying, she loves it so much. You can see her having memories of it as she's describing it now.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

I was getting ready to go to the store and the jacket was ripped up. I said, did you rip up my jacket? And he said, why would I do something like that? You accused me of throwing away a dress. Now you accuse me of cutting up your jacket. I say, so little John did it.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

He rips it to pieces and leaves it for her to find.

[Patrick Hines]

He destroys it. And as I'm sitting here, I'm like, I really wish we could use the power of the Internet for good. Like, can we find. It's like, is it on Poshmark or something? Like, can we find this jacket and this dress to get it from?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Patrick Hines]

Because we see footage of her in the jacket. It's like a blazer. It's amazing.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And she loves it.

[Patrick Hines]

And we don't have any footage of the dress, but, like, can we, like, can we do this?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Do your thing, Internet.

[Patrick Hines]

I want to do that for her.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

More than even that. They're saying that, like, she finds the jacket ripped up. He says he didn't do it. And she's like, so it was either you or are like nine month old.

[Patrick Hines]

The baby you're jealous of, did he do it?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Ripped my jacket to pieces.

[Patrick Hines]

So Dr. Carolyn west is here. She's a domestic violence expert. And she says, she's like, look, we really throw gaslighting around these days. It's almost become meaningless, she says. But she goes, make no mistake, like, gaslighting is a powerful form of psychological abuse, coercive control and manipulation. And Mildred's like, yeah, it didn't feel like abuse at the time, but looking, she realizes he just set out to destroy everything she loved. And what's so sad is that she explains that she's realizing in real time.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

It was at that point That I realized that if I told him I liked something or made a big deal about it, it would no longer be there. So I stopped.

[Patrick Hines]

If she told him she liked something or was happy about something, he would find some way to destroy it or take it away. So she stopped. And I'm like, so she's.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So she knows she's living with a monster. Like, that's the thing. You're living in a foreign. You have no friends, you're fighting with your husband, and you realize this guy who you've promised your life to 99 years is a monster.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like extinguishing this light because now she's like, not allowing herself to like things or she's not talking to her person about this cool thing that she really likes or this dress that she really loves. So she's shutting down to avoid his abuse. And this is what he wants.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. And then she says she doesn't address it because pretty quickly he gets shipped off to Saudi Arabia as part of Desert Storm in December of 1990.

[Expert/Investigator]

Yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And we learned that he was a combat engineer, which is a very stressful job. He's on front lines, he's being shot at. It's very stressful. We learned here too, that he was a marksman, an expert marksman with an M16, which was like the most advanced rifle of the time. Yeah. And he was there for three months where he injures his shoulder and he's brought back to Germany and instantly diagnosed with ptsd.

[Patrick Hines]

So in the hospital, Mildred is told that he has PTSD. And because this is 1991, she replies, what is that? Yes, because we weren't talking, but we're barely talking about it enough now. Definitely we're not talking about it 1991, especially in the military. So she says, like, he looked the same, but he wasn't the same. She's like, the man I married was not there. The person who came back was a complete stranger.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And she gives examples. Like on the drive home from the hospital, she says he didn't want to talk. And she said that's when she knew that it was really bad. She said, the man that I married was gone. He was a total stranger.

[Patrick Hines]

And Dr. Lisa is a DV expert. And with. She's like, I'm not going to diagnose him. But she says PTSD could have done the following two things. Maybe he was more quick tempered, or maybe he wasn't able to regulate his emotions. And she makes it clear his problem did not start in the war. But I'M sure it aggravated them because he was being a controlling asshole to her before this happened.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. And, like, as you were saying from before, like, Mildred, she loves this man. She's trying to help him. When they get back to the base, she's trying to follow up and figure out what services she can get for him. And he one day, like, gets right in her face, and he's like, whatever you're doing to help me, stop.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

He said, I choose to make the military a career, and if there is a blemish on my record, I will not be promoted. So whatever you're doing, stop.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Whatever you're doing to help me, stop.

[Patrick Hines]

So he wants to hide his mental health issues to continue being in the military, which is a recipe for disaster.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Such a systemic problem. It is getting a little bit better, I will say, because Dr. Mildred says.

[Patrick Hines]

We got no help. It was like, oh, he has ptsd. What is that? I don't know. By. So it's not like he was even getting any resources from the military anyway.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

1990 really was just the beginning of the conversation about all of this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So now, on top of it, John has totally shut down. So he's cruel, he's harsh, she's cold. And this is just adding to the abuse.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So by February 1992, their daughter Selena was born.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. They get orders to go back to the United States. They're at Fort Ord, which is outside Monterey, California, which is freaking gorgeous, by the way.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Monterey is where Big Little Lies takes place.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, is that. Yeah, I mean, that I will not not be rich.

[Patrick Hines]

Beautiful.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

But we're told John is acting more like himself. He's playing with the kids. He's getting along with Mildred. And Doct. Carolyn is saying, this is the thing, though, because they'll be warm and loving one minute and then cold and mean the next. So you're always destabilized and, like, that destabilized was like. And it's the next thing that she said that really hit me, too, that.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Like, you think you can get back to that place where they're kind and you can build that relationship again. And so the focus becomes on your behavior and not the perpetrator's behavior. So it's very manipulative and strategic. Abuse is orchestrated.

[Patrick Hines]

This is manipulative. This is strategic. This is orchestrated. Like, the point is to always make you feel like either the rug just got pulled out from under you or could any second.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And, like, you're always walking on eggshells like they could explode any second.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Girl, Masterclass is back. Look, this year, give yourself or give somebody that you love the gift of, like, getting better at the thing that they love.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, that also shows that you're listening to them, you know what they want to do, and it's helping them, like, feel confident in something that they love because they're learning from the.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

These are workshops taught by the industry's best. So I took the writing class with David Sedaris. Like, he wrote me Talk Pretty one day and all of those other amazing books you love. His writing class was incredible. I learned so much. I was so excited to do it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And it's like, oh, there's access to this person. Yes. You know, it's almost like just getting coffee with the guy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, you love that.

[Patrick Hines]

I love the Big Short so much. And Moneyball is good too.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And fam, they've got plans. Starting at 10 bucks a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 plus classes. Classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and more. Like Anna Wintour teaches a class.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, Amy Poehler is going to teach you how to improvise.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

And you can turn your commute or workout or whatever into a classroom. Right, so like you can listen just in audio mode. So you can listen to it like a podcast.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yep. And you can learn wherever you are, on your phone, your laptop, even on your tv. Masterclass goes with you.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, my God. What are you waiting for?

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays. Sometimes up to as much as 50% off.

[Patrick Hines]

Head over to masterclass.com/tco for the current offer.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com/tco.

[Patrick Hines]

Masterclass.com/tco.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Forget that David said Eris class, don't.

[Patrick Hines]

Keep Amy Poehler waiting.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, classes in session, honestly.

[Patrick Hines]

So in California, their daughter Taliba is born and they move to Tacoma, Washington. Yeah, and then John decides he doesn't want to be in the military anymore. This was his dream. And now overnight, he wants out. And no one is allowed to ask why.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

But you know what? He's got this amazing wife who's good at shit. They decide to open an automotive business together. Now, Mildred is over the moon about this. Yep, she's so proud of it. She's like, I was good at the back end, office stuff. He was a great mechanic. They opened a business called Express Car Truck Mechanic, which I'm obsessed with. Yeah, he will come to you. He will fix the car. She makes all the appointments. She runs the books. Like, it's going great. He's good at it. She's good at it. They have pride in, like, having this business together. We're going to learn later that they wanted to, like, leave this business to their kids. They're making money, thriving. He's out of the military. It's going great.

[Patrick Hines]

She think. Dr. Miler thinks, like, we're turning the page.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we meet China Fortson Washington, who's a DV advocate, and she was actually a client of this business. But the weird thing about it is.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

That John would come to my house, work on my car. I don't know why, but he just never came across as a family man. John never conveyed that he was married. He never said my wife. He never said my family.

[Patrick Hines]

She never knew that John was married or had a family. I'm like, this is a family run business.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And she had no idea that he was married or had kids or anything.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She says, like, he just never came off as like, that. That is weird.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, there's part of me that's like, look, we don't have to get into everyone's personal life. It's your mechanic.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I get it podcast. We're gonna learn, though, that he was like, a big philanderer.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally. But also, this is a family business. He's in a partnership with his wife. The business, she's doing the books. Like, it's at the two of them.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

When China called, she got his wife on the phone.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You know, it doesn't.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so that. That's why she's saying it's weird because it's like, wait, I. Oh, that's your wife.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right. Exactly. Oh, oh, oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Or that he had kids. He has, like, three kids at this point.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. And she. But like, China says, like, I was on the phone with Mildred a lot. Like, we became phone buddies. So like, eventually that's how she figures out that this is his wife and he's got a family.

[Patrick Hines]

So now they meet in person at an event for Muslim women. And Dr. Mildred and her family converted to Islam. And, you know, Taliba is here. Mildred. They're both saying, like, this was a very fulfilling experience for everyone. They loved doing this.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And it feels like Mildred made This decision independent of her husband. Like, she was doing this for her and the kids. And she says John joined, but not because he was a man of God. He did it because he wanted to control her.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Like, he literally could not have God being the center of her universe. It had to be him.

[Patrick Hines]

And remember, I am God. Yes. Call me God.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Wrote to the cops. But Lisa, one of our experts, says most major religions are patriarchal.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So John jumped on this and once again ruined something that meant a lot to his wife and is now weaponizing the worst parts of it and using them against her.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes. And, like, he would become fully rageful.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, like, full of fury.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I'm your God. You obey me. You do what I say. I'm the God of this house.

[Patrick Hines]

And everything was pissing him off. He was a miserable, like, God.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

It's just exhausting.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

She's a mother and she's a business owner, and.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So by fall of 1998, we're in Tacoma, Washington.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

As the business continued to grow, grow, he began rebelling. He would have the cash, he wouldn't bring it back. The job was $500. He come home with $100. The work was $1,000. He come back with three.

[Patrick Hines]

John is stealing money from his own business, aka from his wife.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Like, this is the thing that's so enraging because, like, Mildred gives us all the details here. Like, he'd go out on a $900 job, get cash for it, bring $300 home.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

This is financial abuse, you know, and one of our experts is saying to us that 99% of domestic violence situations include financial abuse. Because she's saying he can go out, buy anything he wants, no questions asked. I absolutely could not do the same thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So he's not just stealing from the business and his wife and his partner, but he's sabotaging the business that they started that was meant to be for their children.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Well, and eventually for the kids. But also to, like, pay for their lives now.

[Patrick Hines]

Sure.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You know, oh, my God. Putting food on the table and, like, just, like, clothes and paying the heat heating bill.

[Patrick Hines]

And, you know, she did most of the work.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So he's just.

[Patrick Hines]

He's ruining yet another thing that, like, she built. That is her thing.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes. And, like, he would come home with visible scars or scratches on his back from having sex with other women and then lie to his wife to his face.

[Patrick Hines]

He's lying, cheating, and stealing.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And she literally was like, he would have scratches up and down his back and he'd be like, I scratched it on a tailpipe under the car. She goes, do I have idiot written on my forehead?

[Patrick Hines]

Right? So by August of 1999, just John. John asks her for a divorce. And I'm like, don't threaten me with a good time.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Well, right. She cries for two minutes, and then she's like, you know what? Wait, you know what?

[Patrick Hines]

Actually, she's flabbergasted. Until she goes, you know what? Hell yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Fuck yeah. And now, of course, he's flabbergasted.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

So he come in and he said, so we're getting a divorce, right? I said, yeah. He said, what? What do you mean? I said, you said you wanted a divorce. He said, no, I was just playing. I just wanted to see your reaction.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, he goes, I was just joking. I wanted to see your reaction. Yes, ma'. Am.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. But then she's kind of like, well, okay, I guess we'll stick it out.

[Patrick Hines]

Or whatever and walk the walk, buddy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right? And then, like, so she says, this happened on a Friday. He wanted a divorce on Friday. Then he changes his mind, brings all, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Because she agreed.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Because she agreed. Exactly. That's exactly. Brings all the kids into the room. I'm going to be better. We're going to be a family now. I'm not leaving. I'm not going anywhere. Sunday afternoon, goes back into the office and he's like, on second thought, I thought I wanted to say, but I.

[Patrick Hines]

Really don't want to because he knows he couldn't do it. Being like, a good guy is exhausting. He just doesn't have it in him. He'd rather lie, cheat and steal.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Being a good guy is exhausting.

[Patrick Hines]

I think he realized, like, I don't want to do this.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, yes, I could actually probably cause her more harm if we got divorced with the custody. You know what I mean? Like, oh, this could be really fun for abuser.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Like, that's the thing. These guys. Guys that, like, need to control these women, but then divorce them, but then need to control them from the outside.

[Patrick Hines]

It's insane.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Anyway, it is crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, okay, bye. Like, fine.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Goodbye. Leave us all alone. So they have video from the day before John moves out, and they fudgeing, hate each other.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And they're like. Though she and her daughter are watching the video, and she's like, I'm not wearing my wedding ring. This was my favorite thing.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

I don't have on my wedding ring. You don't have on your wedding ring? See, I don't have it on.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Your left hand is empty. Mm. I went and got his wedding ring off the dresser. I went in the bathroom and I flushed it down the toilet.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Both of them?

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Both of them.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She took her wedding ring and his, which, you know, are worth some money. Flushed them both down the toilet.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, she did.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

That's how you do it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Expert/Investigator]

Bye.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Goodbye. So he's gone. But like all of our experts are saying, and we know this, it's still dangerous.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You never gone.

[Patrick Hines]

You don't know what he's capable of. And one, he still lives in your head. You're still, like, reeling from the trauma that at this point in the 90s, you don't really know you have yet.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes. And they also say that, like, it's actually scarier when he's not in the house because you don't know where he is.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Well, case in point. He starts sneaking into the house in the middle of the night because he still has a key.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, she hears him coming in, pretends to be a scene, sleep. Hears his footsteps in the hallway. Then, like, feels him leaning over her to, like, feel her breathing.

[Patrick Hines]

And she'd feel him breathing, and she just, like, lay there trying to, like, survive this horrible 10 minutes. And then he would just leave.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And then she changes the locks, like, the next day. Thank God.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, that is barely helps.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know, right? Exactly. I mean, like, can you imagine anything more terrifying than knowing your maniac ex husband is, like, leaning over your face, thinking asleep, like, listening to the sound of your breathing?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, you can't win. It's like, okay, you want a divorce? Fine.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Now you're just kidding. Now you don't want this. But this is the point.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, the hoovering, all this shit. So. But, like, changing the locks barely does anything because he'd come over unannounced. He'd force his way in. At one point, he pushes Dr. Mildred in that she falls back and hits her head on the fireplace.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Now we're told that she calls the police.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

I told them what happened. They said, well, Ms. Muhammad is his next name on the lease. I say, yes, sir, it is. Sorry, there's nothing we can do. He has just as much a right to be here as you do.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And they're like, sorry, his name's on the lease. Like, there's nothing we can do. How about the fact that she just busted her head open on the fireplace because he pushed her? Can you do anything about that?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I wonder.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Like, there is so much. Sorry, nothing we can do here for.

[Patrick Hines]

This woman and I mean, this is just the beginning. So the very next day, day, this asshole comes over to talk. But Mildred has her brother there.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

As protection. She goes, I feel safe with my brother there.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So he asked her to go into the garage. They go into the garage. He starts screaming at her that you're not going to raise my kids without me. But she didn't say she was going to do that.

[Patrick Hines]

Also. Are you really going to act like you're going to be so involved?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

You weren't involved when you were home.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

This you just want to make today miserable. What are you going to do tomorrow? I don't know. But today we're going to fight about the kids.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

We're picking a fight that she never started. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Or just be involved.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Just do the right thing for one.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Here's the secret. Terrible dads, nobody wants to be a single parent. Nobody wants that.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

They only want you out of their lives if you're fudgeing evil and awful.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, so much easier if you just like do the thing you're supposed to do and you don't cause a bunch of shit and drama. It sounds like so reasonable.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Let me clarify. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who want to be single parents and are single parents by choice. My, my point. And I, and I see you and I like, I appreciate you. I don't mean to discount that. I just, just mean anybody who starts out as a two parent family. It sucks to then be this sole provider, the sole caregiver. Unless you have to be.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

I think the wishful thinking that we're doing here is like, if you're gonna be in, in the person's life at all, can you just be decent? Yes. And if you can't, can you just fucking go?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

It's much easier to deal with life without you making it worse.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

100%.

[Patrick Hines]

But that's wishful thinking and that's not the world we live in.

[Expert/Investigator]

I know.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And I, I do think that sometimes we get stuck in this booth of deal with the worst of humanity. You know what I mean? I think in most situations that kind of is what happens. But we forget that because we only ever deal with this. I know people got mad at us recently for being so mean to God, to men. And I get it, we're pretty mean to men. But like, and, and I commented back like, but the thing is we only ever deal with bad men. You know what I mean? Like, we do get good men from time to time. And. And at least I try to point that out, but, like, we live in this microcosm in this booth where whenever we meet men, 99% of the time, they killed the guy or they killed the girl, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. We talk about the documentaries in front of us, too. You know what I mean? And, like, do I bring my own personal experience? Yeah, but I'm not going to not talk about my personal experience.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. Like, look, that's why I go out of my way. Like, when we did the Lilith Fair documentary, I'm like, those three guys that worked for Sarah McLachlan. They were really good. They were into the mission. They weren't just nice. They were into the mission. They believed in uplifting women and breaking the patriarchy. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know that there's more than that, but I just think for our mental health, like, I have to remember, most times when parents get divorced, they both want to raise the kids and stay out of each other's lives and not be assholes.

[Patrick Hines]

Fine. Yeah. You know, this guy was not doing that.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

This guy. This guy got to be one of the worst men in American history.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is who we're talking about today.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So he threatens her, though. He threatens Dr. Mildred, you know, you're not going to raise my kids. And then he says.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

He said, you are not going to raise my children by yourself. You have become my enemy, and as my enemy, I will kill you.

[Patrick Hines]

He charges at you, as my enemy, I will kill you. And then he charges at her, like.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

What is wrong with these people?

[Patrick Hines]

And so Mildred and her brother escape. We don't get details how, but he one threatened to kill her, like, physically and verbally. There's no. No getting around it. That's a threat. Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Zoe. This thing weighs a ton. Drewski, lift with your legs, man.

[Patrick Hines]

Santa. Santa, did you get my lever?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

He's talking to you, britches. I'm not that.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course he did.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right, Santa, you know, my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list. And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17. And at T mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus?

[Patrick Hines]

Mm. I'm Mrs. Claus much younger sister. And AT T Mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch, so you can keep your old phone or give.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It as a gift.

[Patrick Hines]

And the best part, you can make the switch to T mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Nice. My side of the tree is slipping, Kimber. The holidays are better. At T Mobile, switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with three full monthly bill credits for well qualified customers and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance to if you pay off earlier, cancel financing. 256 gates. $830. Eligible for in a new line. $100 plus a month plan without our pay, plus taxes and fees required. Check out 15 minutes or less per line.

[Patrick Hines]

Visit t mobile.com so Mildred gets a restraining order.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

A lifetime restraining order.

[Patrick Hines]

What happens is she gets a restraining order. And this is the first time the words domestic abuse are introduced into her vocabulary. She didn't know anything about it.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

No. She gets a lifetime restraining order. And we need some sort of national. We need some way of. Of like nationalizing this. Because if you're on the Patreon and you're listening to our stocking Samantha. What Samantha went through and then was denied. And I'm not comparing. There's no better or worse, but it was at least equally as awful as what Mildred was going through and was denied her personal protective order. Like, but. But then Mildred gets a lifetime restraining order.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And part of it is because. So this case is heard before a judge and she explains everything and the judge immediately is like, you need to stay the hell away from him. And she's like, sir, I'm trying. But because this asshole didn't show up, it helped get her the lifetime restraining.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Order, which is enormous, which I didn't even know existed.

[Patrick Hines]

Like it rare ever happens.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, they should all be lifetime.

[Patrick Hines]

It only happens if she's like unconscious in the hospital maybe. You know what I mean? It's very rare that like, oh, he didn't show up. Lifetime restraining or like, it's a big.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Deal, go ahead and make them all lifetime. Am I crazy?

[Patrick Hines]

No. But also. So he gets a lifetime restraining order, but he gets a visitation with the children. And I'm like, we were so close. Yeah, we were so.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And honestly, I think that is the thing in this documentary the most. It shows me the lack of understanding here because anybody who understands anything about these coercive control relationships, these domestic violence situations knows if you can't get to the wife, you get to the wife through the kids.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, and so now we need to add, if there's a permanent restraining order against Dr. Mildred, how is she supposed to drop the kids off like I don't. You're just making this much more complicated.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

If the man or the person is so violent that they've earned the very, very, extremely rare lifetime restraining order like these kids, if there's going to be visitation at all, it needs to be supervised.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

I completely agree.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Like, I'm yelling at you, like, jillian, why did you do this?

[Patrick Hines]

It seems like. Wait, what? Like, how, how, how in the same breath can you say like. But he does get visitation.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Why?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So three weeks after the restraining order, the kids are going to spend the weekend with John. Yeah, the weekend with John. To your point, like you were just saying, is it supervised? I don't know. But they get to spend the whole weekend. Yeah, the kids are gonna spend. They leave Friday and they're supposed to be home on Sunday. They're supposed to be home at 2pm.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Sunday came 2 o'. Clock, no children. I'm blowing up John's pager. He didn't answer until 11:30pm and all he said was, we'll be there shortly. And as soon as I hung up.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

The phone, butterflies will be there shortly and then never shows up. This is the beginning of such a nightmare.

[Patrick Hines]

A true, true nightmare. Nightmare and a major problem already. You're like, jillian, we are in a major problem. Yes.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

On top of that.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

We learned that there was no parenting plan that gave anyone custody, which means he is their father, he has a right to their kids in the eyes of the law. Fudge. This guy. You know how I feel. But I'm saying, in the eyes of the law, he's not actually kidnapping them.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

But what I don't understand is disagree with. No parent in this situation, I would think can just permanently take the kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Away when during their visitation. Right, Visitation. Like, did the court say, well, at 2:00pm on Sunday, they have to be back, like, after he misses that deadline or the visit.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Visitation, you know, I guess I'm to understand that when we are told there was no custody plan in place, it means there was nothing.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, they decided amongst themselves.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes. So that, like, that literally means he cannot be kidnapping the kids because there is no. Because they have equal custody, I guess, in all respects.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's their father and whatever. So Mildred obviously is hysterical. Obviously. Then we jump a month and a half in the future. And a month and a half, Mildred is explained. And I'm like, we don't slow down on this enough. She doesn't know where her kids are.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

For a month and a half. And all she knows is that they're with the guy who wants to kill her.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's all she knows. I don't know how you survive the.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Guy who wants to kill her or torture her. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Hurting the kids.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right? Exactly. Like we don't know that the kids aren't dead. Like, how is there not. Fine. There's nothing written down on paper for the custody order. But like, shouldn't they. Like if the mother wants to know where the kids are, shouldn't there be some proof of life that must be given somewhere?

[Patrick Hines]

I agree. You know, it's crazy. John is now calling Mildred.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

While I was in the hospital, John called. I said, where are my children? He said, well, we don't always get what we want, do we? My mother called shortly thereafter and said that John just called her and said he's on his way to kill her daughter.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm on my way to kill your daughter. He's just telling everyone his plans.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And now Mildred is in the hospital. Her body is literally shutting down.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

This would be me only like 15 minutes in.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, of course, your body. She's not eating, she's not sleeping. She's in a constant state. You know that pit in your stomach?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Imagine like your entire body feeling that for a month and a half. There's no way she's eating. No. She's sleep deprived. She's starving.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And on top of like not knowing where her kids are, now she feels like there's a man who's going to come and kill her. She can't go home when she leaves the hospital. She has to go into a shelter. And she's saying, I went from having a 10 year marriage, three kids, a thriving business, to having to live in a shelter because I'm afraid for my life and I don't know where my kids are. How did I get here?

[Patrick Hines]

And because she. There's a guard outside her hospital room.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then when she leaves, she goes to the shelter. And I'm like. So they. Where's the guard?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It's a safe house. I'm sure the shelter is a safe house.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. But they have to like, okay, well that's, that's got to be written on a piece of paper somewhere that a guard needs to be posted outside her hospital room.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

So she, she is at the safe house or shelter or whatever for eight months.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She does something really smart.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

I wanted to file for divorce, but I needed to learn the law, so I took paralegal courses. I got rid of habeas Corpus. That anywhere they found my children, they needed to pick them up and bring them back to me.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Anytime the kids pop up anywhere in any system, she has to be notified immediately.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, my mouth was wide open, open watching this. I'm like, how is she doing this by herself?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Why? I don't. I'm like, she's amazing. But, like.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, there's, like, five advocates in this documentary that she probably collected along the way.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, China is her friend.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, yeah. I mean, it's very lonely. Nobody is helping her.

[Patrick Hines]

Did you watch All Her Fault?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Remember the scene? I love the scene so much where they meet in the bathroom? The two women in the bathroom.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And they talk about. And Dakota Fanning says, I'm so sick and tired of being amazing.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

That when I was just like, it's amazing that she did that, but, like, sick and tired. Tired of being amazing and doing all of it. Where were the resources?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Why does she have to, like, become a paralegal and file all of these things by herself to get a divorce when this man has been with her children for eight months?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Because I think, like, for. I mean, somebody should be helping her. But the big question is, like, how does this make any sense? There needs to be a way that if my children are, like, their passports are scanned or anything happens, like, they're like, there needs to be a trigger. She figured it out, you know, like.

[Patrick Hines]

And why is it not. Why? Just because. Let's just say. Let's just say legally and on paper that, like, okay, he's her. He's their father. He's not on paper, technically, kidnapping him. Yeah, but where's the law against. You can't just keep them from their mother either.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

She hasn't done anything wrong.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, I don't know why it's all like. Well, it's okay that he's doing all this because he's their father, but she's the mother.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes. Right. She's right to that. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Logic. Why is she being punished and doing this all by herself?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

No, I know. So she calls a P.I. they tell her there's nothing they can do for her because it's the police's job. What?

[Patrick Hines]

Like what? So finally we get first cousin Michael on the phone.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

He's a private eye. He's gonna help her.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Or did he become a PI in these eight months? I don't know exactly. I don't really know.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So we go back in time now. So it's now, spring of 2000. It's a month since John took the kids. And we're in Antigua, and we're with Taliba, the daughter. And she's.

[Patrick Hines]

She's here with us today.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She's here with us in the documentary. And, like, this is where they went. They left the country. I went to Antigua, she says. I remember landing, being taken in a cab. We were, like, moved into this, like, pretty rough neighborhood, she says.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

But my dad was like, we're gonna be here for right now. Your mom's coming. My dad was just saying that we're.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Gonna play a name game.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

We had to change our names. If we were to say our regular names to each other or out loud, then we owe each other a dollar.

[Patrick Hines]

They're changing their names. And if anyone uses their old names with each other, they have to pay attention. Dollar, which is like, he's trying to make it cute. But the thing that I was like, I guess if I'm looking for a silver lining here, which I am, because this is horrifying. At least they're not shaking with fear.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

At least he's not, like, screaming at him, you're never going to see your mom again. At least as much as. As fucked up as it is.

[Expert/Investigator]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It made me think, like, okay, but.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, like, he doesn't want them either. You know what I mean? Like, he doesn't want to be doing this, and.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So. Oh, my God. So October 2000, Taliba and her two siblings have been gone from. For seven months. And John has a side hustle.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And the side hustle is making fake IDs to sneak people into the United States. And one day, he introduces their kids to their, quote, new brother. And the new brother is that kid Lee Malvo from earlier. He was the first name we knew.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. He's going to go on to be, like, the coconspirator in the D.C. sniper situation. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And they describe him this. It's like, heartbreaking because he's a kid, and they call. They describe him as, quote, a throwaway kid. And no one gave a shit about him. So John's like, oh, I could totally manipulate you.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

His mother was raising him as a single mom, but would go away for long stretches for work. So John just adopted him into his family. And I'm like, did anyone tell the mom, like, that you can just do this? I mean, this is another kid that he just kidnapped. Was he, like, 15?

[Patrick Hines]

He just like, yeah, he was like, 16 or 17.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's August 2001. We're in Washington 17 months. I had to go back, and now I'm. I took a screenshot because I knew in the moment I would be like, did I write that down right?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

17 months since they were kidnapped.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

So there. I don't know why, but he enrolls them in school.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

They're back in the United States, and he. Well, he enrolls them in school under the fake names, but doesn't have the proper documentation to get government services under those names. So he enrolls them under their real names for, like, what we would now call SNAP benefits.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

I got a call from a detective, and he said, john filed for food stamps and cash with our children. Children's real names. It triggered an alert. He said, we got your children. I said, what are you talking about? He said, we have your children.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

As soon as her kids names are entered into an American system, she gets an alert.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't believe that as their mother, she couldn't say, I don't know. Month, nine, ten?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know where my kids are. My ex husband took them from me. Can we just have an alert? Like, I don't understand.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I think what it probably comes down to is nobody wanted to help her. Like, I think that she went to the authorities and nobody wanted to help her.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

You know, I mean, that I'm guessing, but that seems to be the only logical expl. The only answer that. That can answer that question.

[Patrick Hines]

Because doesn't it seem the months are going by now? We're. It's been a year. 16 months. 17 months.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Because how many times do we hear, like, adults can go missing on purpose if they want to? Like, oh, you guys probably just had a fight. He'll bring the kids. Don't worry about it. You know, he's not technically doing anything illegal, so we can't really help you anyway, but don't sit by the phone.

[Patrick Hines]

But how is that not. I know. You know. I know. We don't know the answer, but how is it not illegal to just, like, take your children.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

From the other parent and not tell them where they are for going on 18 months? I don't understand.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I totally agree.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, the good news is the kids are rescued immediately. Thank God.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And there's an emergency custody hearing. And I'm like, God damn it.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

We get to hear this piece of shit tell that he's being denied custody, like, forevermore.

[Patrick Hines]

Because, like, the playbook. He's the victim.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Always the victim. So Mildred gets custody. His visitation is, quote, suspended. And I know we all want to celebrate. I know our gut. It's like, oh, my God. Yeah, this is a good thing. No, because this triggers John and makes everything a million times worse.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Because anybody who is so insane that they're going to kidnap the kids for 17 months is only going to get worse when. When he doesn't get his way. And worse, the wife gets what she wants and he doesn't get what he wants.

[Patrick Hines]

And even worse than that, he wasn't arrested because, remember, there was no official custody agreement in place when he took the them. So technically, he didn't kidnap them. And everyone is just annoying. The fact that he's a violent psycho and is not. They're not considering how incredibly dangerous this is. He threatened her life. We have a witness, her brother, and he took the kids for 18 months. I feel insane.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And I think that this is what so many of our experts in this documentary are screaming that, like, we need to look at the D.C. sniper case, one of the worst cases of domestic terrorism in our country, as coming from a domestic abuse case. It really, at its heart and like that, that is the point of this documentary, is that he wanted to abuse. And we're going to lear learn the reason why he killed all of those people in a minute. But it all stems from the fact that she was an abused woman who nobody listened to and nobody helped. And it made him so crazy that he went and did what he did.

[Patrick Hines]

Because, like, he's convinced that he's the victim. We just talked about this in stalking Samantha. I feel like we talk about it every week because he's crying that his kids were taken away, ignoring the fact that he stole them from us.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

But this is what he's living in his own reality and then reacting to that reality. And everyone else is living in actual reality. And we talk about this every weekend. This is incredibly dangerous because he sees it. My kids were taken away. No, they weren't.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Exactly. Now we're back to October 2002. And in this timeline, the cops have just learned John's name. And so now they show up. It's 22 days after the first sniper shooting. And they show up at Mildred's house. And they're like, when was the last time you saw John? And she says, September 5, 2001. And they tell her, he said, Look.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Ms. Muhammad, we're going to name John as the sniper.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

What?

[Dr. Carolyn West]

My head hit the table. He said, they were gonna put us in protective custody.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Like, we're about to name your ex husband as the D.C. sniper. Now, remember, she's been living in Maryland amidst all of the chaos of the D.C. sniper shootings. And she's now being told her ex husband John is the guy.

[Patrick Hines]

And they tell her. They're like, there's no time for pleasantries or being delicate. They're like, I know it's a lot, but too bad, pack a bag. We need to get moving. And honestly, Mildred, you're not moving fast enough.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right? Yes, exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, they're like, we need to. We can tell you the rest in the car, but we can't. You don't. We don't have time for you to be like shocked right now to keep this moving.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I want to say this here because I'm afraid it'll get lost later. She is the reason for the D.C. shooting. And they're not telling her that in this moment. But what they're going to say eventually, and I just want to say it clearly here. He killed all of those people so that he could kill her and then make it look like she was just a victim of the D.C. shooting, the D.C. sniper case, and then he could rush in and be the dad for the kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I cannot stress enough the importance of, like, this is new information about the D.C. sniper shooting.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It was all done because he wanted to abuse his ex wife.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And she tells us that John had a motto and the motto was. And I think this is also like a military motto in general, but correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know anything. But one shot, one kill to the head, Never leave an enemy behind. And Mildred's like, that was his motto. I was the enemy.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

He threatened to kill me. I am in danger. And this is like, one shot, one kill to the head. And like, that's what the sniper's doing.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so she's realizing, like, oh, right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And it's like what all of our experts are going to be screaming for the rest of this documentary we're kind of getting to the end of it is like she, if we could pay attention to domestic violence and realize how quickly it can escalate and that it can escalate to this degree where 10 other people have to die and countless others are injured, including a 13 year old boy, because this man was trying to get back at his wife. He was trying to kill his wife and get away with it. You know, this is at its heart, a domestic violence case.

[Patrick Hines]

That's all it is.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So not that's all it is, but that's like at its core. So they figure out, like, the authorities are Putting information out to the public, and let me tell you, there, getting results.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

They figure out that John is driving a blue car. The information's out there for two seconds, and some person's like, there he is right there. Go get him.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Remember in the beginning when they saw that, like, Chevy Capri, like, hovering around her neighborhood like it was John's car? And they. They show us the car. And I remember back in the day seeing this car the way that it was built to be a killing machine.

[Expert/Investigator]

The car was set up. It was very much a sniper platform. There was a small hole in the trunk big enough for the barrel of that rifle to fit through. They couldn't take the shot, remove the rifle, and drive into oblivion.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

They basically hollowed out the back. Like, it looked like a regular back seat to a car, but you could just move the seats aside so you could lay your body down. They cut out a hole in the trunk not big enough to be seen necessarily by other cars, but big enough to get the barrel of a rifle through. So this. That way, they could be anywhere, pull the trigger. Nobody would have any idea where it came from and speed off, and nobody would be the wiser.

[Patrick Hines]

They said the car was set up as a sniper platform. It was a rolling sniper's nest and built to kill.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

If that guy from Washington hadn't called in this tip, and if that idiot Lee Malvo, hadn't dropped that magazine that left his thumbprint on it because, remember, he. Exactly. They got caught because they were able to connect the thumbprint to Lee Malvo. And then some detective was like, well, wait a second. Somebody called in a tip about their friend from Washington who was traveling with a guy named Malvo. Like, if.

[Patrick Hines]

But who's the priest who confessed to the priest?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right. Well, right.

[Patrick Hines]

Lee Melvo.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

It was either Malvo or John. It might have been John. But, like, if those calls hadn't been made, if those good Samaritan hadn't called in those tips, they might never have caught this guy.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. Or, like, because they were. They did have tunnel vision, which they admitted. Like, at least they took a record of things that maybe didn't make sense at first, and now altogether, they do.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Expert/Investigator]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know?

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So John Allen Mohammed and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and injured three others during the Sniper DC attacks in October 2000. That's the onscreen text. And then they tell us that they were linked to at least five additional homicides across the United States between February and September of that year.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Like, at least one was at that liquor store in Alabama. Remember that one? Like, they were on a killing spree across the country because they were coming from Washington.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so like when they realized that Mildred had been the target all along and the police plan was to make Dr. Mildred just like a random target of the sniper. I think that's 100% true. And I'm not arguing that.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But they also just wanted to kill people.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I think there's part of it too that was like, for John, who, whether this was exacerbated by his PTSD or whatever was kind of like, we can also kill a bunch of people.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and what we learned too.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Is that the prosecutor stated that the theory was that John was killing innocent people to cover up my murder so he could come in as the grieving father and gain custody of his children.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So they killed all these other people so they can make her look random. The judge did not allow that to be presented at trial. He said there wasn't enough evidence to say that that was like a proper theory of the case. And that's why we've never heard of this before.

[Patrick Hines]

And the judge won't allow anything about the domestic violence or the custody or the fact that he stole his own kids for a year and a half.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

This judge didn't see a connection for whatever reason.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And I think what they're trying to say is that because it was so close to 9 11, they wanted to get him on domestic terrorism. They wanted to show that they were crack. Cracking down on domestic terrorism.

[Patrick Hines]

And we're told that it's easier to see him as a terrorist and demonize an entire religion than it is to see him as an abuser. Basically. Like the racism is going to get this guy convicted. Yes, essentially.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So because then the community turns against Mildred.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm like, the world fudgeing hates women. Oh my God.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Mildred says to us, they said to her, how can you see yourself as a victim in this? Like your kids weren't killed, you weren't killed. Nothing happened to you yet.

[Patrick Hines]

And also. Yes, it did.

[Expert/Investigator]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, I'm the guy that lived with this monster for all those years. My kids were kidnapped for 18 months. Like I've been being tortured by this man for 12 years.

[Patrick Hines]

I was thrown into the fireplace. I was this. The psychological torture, all of that.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So this guy is cuz the husband. Ex husband gets his trial is first and he sentenced to death.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So then in November 2003, it's Lee Malvo's trial and MIL. Dr. Mildred actually testifies on his behalf.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

My children said he looked out for us when dad wasn't there. He was able to get us food when we were hungry. He helped us to carry the buckets of water to help us to bathe ourselves.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

She learned about all the things that he did for her kids, like getting them food, getting them water, getting them to school, like, helping them survive.

[Patrick Hines]

And he was 17 years old.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So to her, it's so clear that, like, the father groomed him and he was susceptible to this. Like, obviously, there must have been something in him already, or maybe not. I don't know the depths of the grooming.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, the father's influence was massive and undeniable. And she's like, look, you kept my kids safe. Like, you were nice to them.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

When I was literally in the hospital because my body was shutting down from stress.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I mean, he gets found guilty, life in prison. And like, this to me was so heartbreaking. November 10, 2009. It's the day of the execution for John. Yeah. And the kids are like, we just want to say goodbye. And the lawyer promises the mom, okay, like, we'll call you before we bring him into the chamber. And they don't. And the kids learn on the news that their dad's execution had been carried out at 9:11pm and the kids lose it. You know what I mean? Like, and. And, like, they're old. Taliba now is. Is old enough to say, like, I understand that, like, my dad was a monster, but, like, he was still my dad, you know? And, like, I'm not. Like, I'm not. She's not trying to take anything away from the grief of the families of the people that he killed. But at the same. Like, they're children. Like, they're little kids. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And this is where we really hit home.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

Like, we so minimized and domestic violence and seeing it as something that happens within your household. It's a private matter. It's a personal matter until it spills over and impacts the rest of society. And other people who had nothing to do with this lost their lives. It shouldn't have to take that for us to care.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a sickness that we all need to care about a lot more because, like, people died or were injured or were traumatized. Traumatized. An entire city lived in fear because of the. The sniper. And, like, what about, you know, if your. That was your family member or a friend or even not. Like, that can be a fear that sticks with you for the rest of your life.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah. I mean, and like the theory of the case here, if it's true, is that all of those people were killed so that he could kill her.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And if we had just addressed this much earlier and. And believed her and helped her, there could have been this. Could.

[Patrick Hines]

Could have been avoided a million percent. But now Dr. Mildred travels the world talking about her experience, speaking about domestic violence, making change happen, even if it's one person at a time.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And we learned that in 2025, the School of the Great Commission Theological Seminary awarded Mildred Muhammad an honorary doctorate of humanities for her work in advocacy, education, and domestic violence awareness. And then this was interesting because this is new.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Because I guess because this is on hbo, Max. But everything is mixed now. Like, all the streaming services are basically one big thing.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

It used to called cable. I know it used to be called television. But it says that ID is committed to educating viewers about the various. For various forms of domestic violence. Which I thought was interesting because they.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Talk about her touring, talking about domestic violence with non. Physical scars.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so ID says that they're committed to providing support for those who need it. And so to find resources, go to NoExcuse for abuse dot com. I thought this documentary was excellent and so needed.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Absolutely excellent. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

My God.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, my God, girl. We did. What's it called?

[Patrick Hines]

Hunted by my husband, the untold story of the DC Sniper.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

So good, fam. Hey, listen. Join the Facebook group It's True Crime Obsessed podcast discussion group. Come subscribe to our YouTube it's true crime obsessed podcast on YouTube. It's so good. We love it. The videos are excellent.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. We have a great team.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

And that's it. What are we doing next?

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. The Carmen family deaths on Netflix.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Oh, yeah. Yes. I just watched it. It's wild. Oh, God, Absolutely freaking wild.

[Patrick Hines]

It was just added. So we move things around.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Y.

[Patrick Hines]

So there you go. I don't even know what to think about it, honestly.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Yeah, no, there's a lot going on.

[Patrick Hines]

A lot going on.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

All right, fam, we love you.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you. Stay safe, please.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

All right. Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

The ocean carries a lot of secrets.

[Patrick Hines]

Linda Carmen and her son Nathan left and never returned from a fishing trip near Block Island.

[Expert/Investigator]

It just gets deeper and deeper.

[Patrick Hines]

The freighter spotted Carmen floating alone in a life raft south of Martha's Vineyard. Carmen's mother remains missing and is presumed dead.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

People thought this poor young man lost.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

His mom at sea.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

Some of his story didn't add up.

[Expert/Investigator]

Nathan was a firstborn grandson of a Greek dynasty.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

He was number one in grandpa's eyes.

[Patrick Hines]

Linda father was extremely controlling.

[Dr. Carolyn West]

When you're a self made millionaire, sure he stepped on a lot of toes. Linda was very protective over Nathan.

[Jillian Bezavoli]

I think she'd protect him at all costs.

[Patrick Hines]

This isn't the first time tragedy has hit the Carmen family.

[Expert/Investigator]

They felt Nathan had murdered his mother and his grandfather.