480: Homicide Hunter: The Man with No Face

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 480 Recap: "Homicide Hunter: The Man with No Face"

Release Date: January 13, 2026
Hosts: Patrick Hines & Jillian Pensavalle
Case Discussed: The 1988 murder of Mary Lynn Vipondo, as recapped from the true crime documentary featuring retired detective Joe Kenda

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Patrick and Jillian recap the "Homicide Hunter: The Man with No Face" documentary, chronicling one of Lt. Joe Kenda’s most haunting unsolved cases: the brutal assault and murder of Mary Lynn Vipondo in Colorado Springs, 1988. The episode blends dark, often chilling case details with Patrick and Jillian’s trademark humor and commentary, highlighting not only the singularity of the case but also the evolution of forensic science, especially DNA technology.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Legend of Joe Kenda

• Joe Kenda is presented as a local legend in Colorado Springs—beloved, occasionally overconfident, with “neighbors running out of their houses to get his autograph” (04:01).
• The hosts affectionately riff on his mannerisms and his reputation, coining terms like "Ken Dolls" for Kenda fans (01:48).

2. The Crime Scene: June 1988

• Victim: Mary Lynn Vipondo, age 24—a young mother, wife, and avid student.
• Found brutally assaulted, raped, and left in a “humiliating” staged position in an alley.
• Key detail: Clumps of bleach-blonde, chemically treated hair found at the scene – unusual for men at the time.

3. Forensic Limitations & Precautions

• In 1988, DNA is "scientific mumbo jumbo" (10:48)—so new it was little understood, but the crime scene is preserved meticulously.
• Jillian applauds the care in evidence handling despite the nascent DNA science:

  “I am shocked by this and very pleasantly amazed” (10:48).

4. The Husband, Bob Vipondo: Grief and Suspicion

• Bob arrives at the crime scene, identifies his wife by her socks—a “walking red flag” to police, who immediately treat him as a possible suspect.
• Classic true crime trope: inside six degrees, families are always first scrutinized ("What do we do? Everyone? We start close to the victim and work our way out," Jillian, 13:10).
• Bob is eventually cleared: his hair is not bleached, he passes a polygraph, and there are no injuries suggesting a struggle.

5. Painful Details of Mary Lynn's Life and Character

• Mary Lynn is described by her sister Cynthia and husband Bob as fiercely independent, non-materialistic, free-spirited (“She loved Pink Floyd. … She was a free spirit,” 24:24).
• Family dynamics are explored: small town, close families, Bob’s regret over inviting his drunk brother to stay the night, and Mary Lynn’s habit of taking walks to cool down.

6. Early Suspects and Disappointments

• Trenton Hayes: Arrested nearby on unrelated DUI, owns a stonewashed jean jacket (like the victim’s missing one), has visible scratches. But DNA exonerates him.
• Bar Scene Lead: Bartender at the late-night Rogers Bar recalls a belligerent, scarred man—sketched and shared citywide to no avail.
• Mike Lauderman: Name comes up months later from a woman arrested in Kansas, but DNA again rules him out.

7. The Cold Case Years

• Case runs cold for decades, haunted by lack of a match and Joe Kenda’s frustration—31 unsolved homicides keep him up at night after retirement (48:05).
• Family suffers stigma and unresolved grief—Bob still suspected by some despite clearance.

8. DNA Breakthrough & Phenotyping

• By 2017, advances in DNA ("phenotyping") allow police to create a facial rendering from DNA—result: unknown white male with blue eyes and bleached hair.
• Still, the case stalls until late 2017, when a CODIS hit finally identifies the perpetrator.

9. Surprise Resolution: The Killer Revealed

• James Edward Papel: Identified as the killer—his DNA is matched 30 years later.
• Shocking reveal: Papel was only 15 years old at the time of the attack (53:49).
• Despite living locally ever since, being frequently in trouble with the law, and even institutionalized for violent behavior, his DNA was never entered into CODIS due to insanity plea loopholes.
• Pattern of violence: all his partners describe him as abusive, violent, and capable of murder.

10. Aftermath and Verdict

• Papel eventually pleads guilty to first-degree murder and sexual assault, is sentenced to 60 years.
• The family experiences no true closure; both Bob and Cynthia express anger, heartbreak, and ongoing pain.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

About Joe Kenda and 80s Attitudes

• Jillian, on Kenda's attitude:

  “There’s a little bit of 1980s misogyny… don’t call her honey. Don’t blame the victim for being murdered” (06:21 & 47:31).

• Patrick:

  "There’s just something about, like, an overconfident, middle, you know, later in life, white guy being like, ‘I was great. I’m great at everything’" (03:31).

On Evidence and Preservation

• Jillian:

  "Even without that [DNA] knowledge, I am shocked by this and very pleasantly amazed. Yeah, everyone preserved the crime scene and all of the evidence with a lot of care and precision…" (10:48).

About Pain and Family

• Bob Vipondo (Husband):

  “That person was my reason for living basically. I mean that was my love” (13:36).

• Cynthia (Mary Lynn’s sister):

  "[I] felt blown off the face of the earth. It was unreal. She’s not over it to this day. How do you ever get over something like this?” (23:26).

Confronting the Monster

• Joe Kenda on the killer:

  “Was it because his mom abandoned him? I don’t know. I don’t care... What do we do with him now – continue with an academic discussion or wrap him in barbed wire and put him in a dungeon?” (63:08).

• Patrick:

  “Barbed wire in the dungeon!” (63:32).

On Justice Delayed

• Jillian:

  “Decades. It’s crazy. … The reason the system sucks is because there are so many… women who are like, he was a violent asshole who was going to kill me. And yet. He’s shacking up with the nurse and he’s just, like, out in the world” (60:37).

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Key Timestamps

• 03:14: Joe Kenda introduces himself and his “legend” in Colorado Springs.
• 09:17: Description of the crime scene and the uniquely humiliating manner Mary Lynn was left.
• 13:36: Bob Vipondo recalls his marriage, relationship, and the last night alive with Mary Lynn.
• 21:59: Discussion of the violent autopsy and DNA evidence left at the scene.
• 26:25: Eyewitness Cindy Hyatt remembers a scream at 3am.
• 28:14: First suspect—Trenton Hayes—is ruled out via DNA.
• 36:01: Bartender recalls seeing suspicious man with large facial scar.
• 41:02: Story of Kansas arrest that leads nowhere.
• 48:05: Kenda retires, leaving unsolved cases behind.
• 49:09: Cold case squad and DNA phenotyping efforts in 2017.
• 53:04: Breakthrough—James Edward Papel, then 15, is identified via DNA.
• 55:06: Papel’s ex-girlfriends and ex-wives describe lifelong violent tendencies.
• 61:02: Papel attempts an insanity plea, accepts a plea deal, and is sentenced.
• 63:10: Kenda’s “wrap him in barbed wire and put him in a dungeon” speech.

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Listener Takeaways

• Systems Matter: Early evidence preservation made this 30-year-old case solvable once forensic science caught up.
• Victim-Blaming Lingers: Even in modern retellings, old attitudes (about high-risk lifestyles, women walking alone) get called out.
• Lasting Trauma: The pain for families doesn’t end with a conviction—even decades later, the hole remains.
• DNA Technology: The leaps from 1988 “mumbo jumbo” to today’s phenotyping and CODIS matches brought long-awaited justice, but loopholes and “insanity” deflections delayed it.

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Conclusion

This episode, while covering deeply distressing details, is at turns hilarious, sharp, and infuriating, thanks to Patrick and Jillian’s deft blend of empathy, pop culture asides, and true crime critique. Their recap both honors Mary Lynn Vipondo’s memory and scrutinizes the failings and eventual breakthroughs of the justice system—all while shining a comedic light on the larger-than-life character of Joe Kenda.

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Next Episode Preview: True Crime Obsessed will cover "Trouble in Bardstown: The Crystal Rogers Case" (Dateline, Season 34, Episode 7)—a much-requested, complex Kentucky disappearance.

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Transcript

[Patrick Hines]

Can I start by telling them that I accidentally took a two hour nap today and I'm kind of like, I'm not even really awake yet.

[Jillian]

Sure. I think you just did.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You got here. I set my alarm for whatever, like, 40 minutes and then I woke up like two hours later.

[Jillian]

You know what you did, though? You told me I set it for.

[Patrick Hines]

AM instead of pm.

[Jillian]

There you go.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, I guess I needed to sleep because I. I woke up like the building was on fire.

[Jillian]

That's great.

[Patrick Hines]

It was crazy.

[Jillian]

Okay, great.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure this is real. Is this a dream? You have to tell me if this is a dream.

[Jillian]

It's very real.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay? This is happening.

[Jillian]

This is very happening. Your life, it is. Tori. I'm obsess. Ha.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi, Jillian. Be.

[Jillian]

Hello. Patrick Hines, fam. What are we telling them about Discord and YouTube?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, Disky, don't forget to join the Discord. Tell them what that is and how to do it.

[Jillian]

It's a server. It's a Discord server and we have one. And there are all these different channels and everyone's really nice and we're talking about like the episodes, but there's also a channel for like, dog pics. And there's also a channel about like music that you're listening to and whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like the Facebook group, but like organized.

[Jillian]

A little bit more organized. Everyone's very nice, very helpful, like a lot of people. And they're like, I've never done this. What do I do? And then they just jump in there. Very, very kind.

[Guest/Expert]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Also, we're on YouTube. We have almost 200,000 subscribers. Hi, YouTube fam.

[Jillian]

Hi, everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

I gotta really strongly recommend if you have not ever watched our YouTube, go watch the Lilith Fair episode on YouTube because we are levitating. I am levitating off the chair. It is the most animated I've ever been in an episode. And that's saying something.

[Jillian]

It was a gift for everybody, really.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you so much. I cried twice.

[Jillian]

Our last episode of the year.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Our last bonus episode.

[Jillian]

Bonus episode of the year.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. What are we talking about today?

[Jillian]

Okay, Joe Kenda fans, whatever you call yourself, the Kendys. This is the man with no face. This is Joe Kenda, homicide hunter. So he has like 11,000 seasons of that show that he has like three or four, like full length documentaries. This is one of them. It's 90 minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

The male fan or anybody who wants to. Can we call ourselves the Ken Dolls?

[Jillian]

Sure. I'm sure that's a thing.

[Patrick Hines]

All right. We're doing that, then I don't know.

[Jillian]

How I didn't think about it. Is it real?

[Patrick Hines]

I have no idea.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

I was good at what I did. But this case was so different. You have no place to go in a murder case. It eats at you. What did we not 1988.

[Jillian]

DNA was just beginning to be a forensic tool.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

He's still out there. That's why I don't sleep at night.

[Guest/Expert]

What kept this case alive was everyone involved knew the DNA was coming.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Well, my, my, my. That is what we've been waiting for.

[Patrick Hines]

Homicide hunter, the man with no face Wednesday, March 8th at 9 on ID. This was a very good episode. Joe Kenda. I had never heard of the guy.

[Jillian]

I think that's so funny.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. Keith Morrison. He is not.

[Jillian]

No, but there's a catchphrase here, and he says it.

[Patrick Hines]

Y. Yeah, yeah. And he's interesting. There's a little bit of, like, 1980s misogyny ways, 100%.

[Jillian]

There's part of it where it's like, all right, Kendall, don't do me any favors if you don't want to be here. I don't.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, no question.

[Jillian]

Which is, I think some people find as part of the charm, he's got.

[Patrick Hines]

Neighbors running out of their houses to get his autographs. He's just trying to live Chilean.

[Jillian]

I know. He's retired Lieutenant Joe Kenda. He tells us a little bit about himself.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

In 1988, I was a sergeant in homicide, the supervisor of the homicide unit. I was on TV a lot. The murder guy almost always is. I was good at what I did. There's no question about that.

[Jillian]

I was joking. Is great at his job. No question. Just ask him. He'll tell you.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, we're pretty good at our jobs. Is it fine to just say it out loud if. As a Kendall. Yeah, if my Kendi can say it out loud.

[Jillian]

Like, I want people to say, we just covered this, where someone was like, oh, yeah, this is. This is what makes me a badass. More of that energy.

[Patrick Hines]

There's just something about, like, an overconfident, like, middle, you know, later in life, white guy being like, I was great. I'm great at everything.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And so June 5, 1988. Joe Kenda is the most famous person in Colorado Springs.

[Patrick Hines]

Guy is just trying to live his life like a private citizen. He cannot walk to his car without the neighbors in their bathrobes running out of their homes to say good morning.

[Jillian]

Yeah. The neighbors will not leave him alone. The neighbor, he's like, I'm just trying to get into my unmarked police car. And I'm like, yeah, the Crown Vic is real inconspicuous, Joe.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And you by yourself are also very inconspicuous.

[Jillian]

Right. The neighbor runs out in his bathroom. Kendall's like, fine, you can have an autograph.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

But no, this person has this horrible tale to tell Joe, and he wants Joe's help. This person 100% got up early, parked himself by the window, waited for Joe to walk to his car, and good, he needs help. Joe can help him find. But that's absolutely what happened.

[Patrick Hines]

I just. I feel like this guy picked the right moment to ask for an autograph. Like, you wait until they're not with their family, you wait when they're not busy, and then you bother the famous, famous, famous celebrity, Joe Cat.

[Jillian]

Well, he wasn't. He was like, autograph, schmotograph. Like, something horrible happened that we never get back to, by the way. So don't even think about it, because Joe gets, like.

[Patrick Hines]

He's so annoyed to having to be talking to his neighbor, and then, like, he's like, gotta call on the radio. Gotta go, Sam.

[Jillian]

He goes. I let him yammer for a minute about this horrible tragedy that happened.

[Patrick Hines]

To be fair, I promise you, we like Joe Kendall.

[Jillian]

I bet this happens to people like him all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

That's true.

[Jillian]

Like, my therapist says he can't save everybody, but I'm sure people are like, I saw. I saw you solve that murder. Can you help me with this thing, like, all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

Would you say that he's like, the Polycole of his neighborhood?

[Jillian]

Of course. So then he's like, oh, a homicide came in. I'm the homicide guy. Like, gotta go. See ya. And off he goes, as mysteriously as he appeared. And we never hear about this neighbor or this horrible tragedy that happened to him ever again.

[Patrick Hines]

But we do hear lots more about Joe Kenda. I love that. Like, he's the boss, which I think is important to see because he's got everybody on his team to keep. Like, they love a legend. They love building the legend of Joe Kend. This guy's got a cigarette in both.

[Jillian]

Hands, Smokes like a chimney.

[Patrick Hines]

Smokes like a chimney. You know, Kenda's rolling down the street when you can see the hand out the window with the cigarette in the hand.

[Jillian]

Yeah. So Lieutenant Brian Ritz tells us all about the smoking. Enter young Joe Kenda. Not Carl Marino from PI Moms. He'd been canned at this point.

[Patrick Hines]

That wasn't him. No. I hated that guy. The whole time for nothing.

[Jillian]

For nothing.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, man.

[Jillian]

Yeah. No, you could have liked him.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh. Because I was like, once again, not that hot.

[Jillian]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

But now.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, now I think he's kind of cute.

[Jillian]

There you go.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. So he was fired by this time?

[Jillian]

Yeah, he, like. Yes. He was not doing it. He was not doing this. He was fired from, like, the series. The, like, 40 minute episode thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Got it.

[Jillian]

So not Carl Marino. Okay, so they get to the scene. It's outside, it's an alleyway. And, like, as the story goes, some idiot girl reporter on the scene is like.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

I remember getting out of the car, and the young reporter very disapprovingly said, oh, you smoke? And I looked at her, I said, honey, you did what I did for a living. You'd be smoking cigars and you'd be inhaling them. Now get out of my way.

[Jillian]

Now get out of my way.

[Patrick Hines]

This is where I was saying this guy.

[Jillian]

Did I exaggerate?

[Patrick Hines]

No, it was perfect. And, like, Keith Morrison would never. You know what I mean? The whole calling her honey, I was like, oh, my God, Kenda.

[Jillian]

That's like, we're out of. We're in Dick Tracy now.

[Patrick Hines]

At the next Kendall meeting, we're gonna have to bring this up. You can't just go around calling women honey.

[Jillian]

I know. You know, some idiot reporter. She was a little girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Can I say the recreation of the alley where crime took place, if they're not in the actual alley, the set design team deserves an Oscar.

[Jillian]

No, they go there.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay?

[Jillian]

They go there.

[Patrick Hines]

It looks exactly like it. Which I guess is because it is it.

[Jillian]

Well, because Dan May is the district attorney, and he is the first person to be like, look, all cases haunt you, but this. This one in particular. And later on, he will go to that alleyway and, like, walk us through it.

[Patrick Hines]

But I mean, in the recreation, like, the recreation, like, the flashback of them, like, walking down the alley, like, it looks. Either it's a green screen or they just used it. Or they used it. Like, I mean, I was honestly blown away by the level of detail.

[Jillian]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

All right.

[Guest/Expert]

All right.

[Patrick Hines]

Kenda, is this my favorite show of all time?

[Jillian]

Kendall, do I like this more than Will Affair? Canada was like, I'm going home. You guys figure it out.

[Patrick Hines]

Sam. Sorry, my voice is a little scratchy. It's been a long week, girl. Earn in is back. Tell us everything.

[Jillian]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian]

Yeah. Because I don't know, things are coming up. You got their gas bills, there's groceries, there's. Or like a fun thing, like a special night out. Or if there's like, I forgot to get so and so that birthday gift or that whatever gift. Like things come up all the time.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian]

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[Patrick Hines]

Thank you. I'm so glad.

[Jillian]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian]

Thank you for that enunciation.

[Patrick Hines]

They got to know the word, you know what I mean?

[Jillian]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Jillian]

It's that simple. This is where it gets really bad, everybody. Welcome to True Crime Obsessed. The victim was left in this very, very horrifying way. She was assaulted, she was raped. And she was left in what they call, quote, the rape position. So this piece of shit, like, wanted to leave her body in a humiliating way.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I mean, this poor woman has been, like, it was horrible. What happened to her?

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

When you look at this girl, evidence of blunt trauma to the face, cuts, scratches, abrasions, sprawled on the ground, skirt hiked up, panties removed and was obviously ripped.

[Patrick Hines]

Her underwear removed and posed. So, like, this is not a thing that we see often in rape cases, but, like, this woman was posed to be found in a, quote, like, humiliated position by the cops, right?

[Jillian]

And so Stephanie Redfield is here. She's the deputy da. She's, like, horrified by this as well.

[Patrick Hines]

She's also not taking anybody's Shit, I love her.

[Jillian]

No, no, no. So she's going through the original evidence photos, and like, this victim, we will learn her name in a minute. Her moccasins are thrown around, her earrings on the ground. There's blood everywhere, like her necklace, her bracelet, but also, most importantly, clumps of hair from the piece of shit who did this. Ripped out in the struggle.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, what I love about that. This is before DNA is well known. And so I love that she was just, like, ripping this man apart the best she could and not even to, like, leave traces of him.

[Jillian]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

She was like a badass fighting for her life.

[Jillian]

Bleached, chemically treated hair. Now, this is great for one reason only, really. Because it's a good way to eliminate a lot of people. Like, it's a really specific thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Kendice says most men don't dye their hair. I was like, somebody doesn't have a lot of gay friends. You know what I mean? Joe, come spend a weekend in Hell's Kitchen.

[Jillian]

This was, like a bad dye job.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Y. It was, like, bleached to shit. Dry as fuck. Hair.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So again, in 1988, we're told that DNA was scientific mumbo jumbo. That's a direct quote. They had no idea what it was or how valuable it could be. But still, even without that knowledge, I am shocked by this and very pleasantly amazed. Yeah, everyone preserved the crime scene and all of the evidence with a lot of care and precision because they were like, we don't know about this DNA stuff, but this crime scene is all we have. We're going to take care of it.

[Patrick Hines]

And they vaguely understand that there's this new technology that's going to help. Like, they're kind of like. And you can tell that Kenda is kind of doesn't really buy it, but. Exactly. We'll. We'll try it. If you say it's going to work.

[Jillian]

Yeah. So they're at the scene, and someone runs up in a panic. This guy is a wreck. He runs under the police tape. His name is Bob Vipondo, and he's.

[Patrick Hines]

Here with us today because initially, like, Joe is looking down at the tape and watching these cops, like, manhandle this man that's trying to get into the crime scene. So Joe goes over him. He's like, what's going on, girl? Like, what's happening?

[Jillian]

The victim is his wife.

[Patrick Hines]

And he knows because he recognized. Recognizes the socks.

[Jillian]

Right. So her name is Mary Lynn Vialpiando.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

It is odd when someone shows up at a crime scene that is A family member really doesn't happen.

[Guest/Expert]

You know, this crime scene was kind of remote. How did he know where to go? What's he doing here? Is he involved?

[Jillian]

How did Bob know she was even there? Like, it's very rare for a family member to show up to a scene like this. We're in kind of like a remote alleyway. The cops, they're immediately like, bob walking red flag. What's going on?

[Patrick Hines]

Moment. I'm on the cop side, you know what I mean?

[Jillian]

And like, Bob's having the worst day of his lifetime's a million. And they're like, why don't you get thrown into this cop car and come downtown? And at first Bob is like, oh, great, we're a team.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm part of the team.

[Jillian]

No, they think you're a walking red flag.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And in fairness, he is like a crazy man trying to break into a crime scene and he's claiming that that woman is his wife. Like, how would you even know she was there?

[Jillian]

And then there's this weird moment where Kenda's like, well, in our defense, this is what Bob looked like in 1988.

[Patrick Hines]

But they even showed the picture to Bob and he's like, yeah, I get why they thought it was me. I'm like, you just look like a guy with a job, you know what I mean? With like big hair, which frankly, I would kill for.

[Jillian]

Is anyone going to say he's not white?

[Patrick Hines]

I know, exactly.

[Jillian]

But I was like, bob, don't let them gaslight you.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Why does this make it look like you did?

[Patrick Hines]

This is way back in the day. Like, this is before everybody watches like true crime documentaries all day long. Like, he thinks that by talking he's helping himself, which in this case he actually is. But that almost is never the case.

[Jillian]

Right. And on the other side of it, what do we do? Everyone? We start close to the victim and work our way out. So obviously we're going to talk to the husband.

[Patrick Hines]

I was thinking about this today. Like, if, like, I were to come home and like, Steve were dead, I would call the police. I'd be like, get down here, question me. I will have my lawyer eliminate me as soon as I know you have to do that.

[Jillian]

Yeah. So here's what Bob tells the cops. Mary Lynn is his wife. She's 24 years old. They have a 4 year old daughter at that time named Coral, and they live like just a few blocks away from the crime scene.

[Bob Vipondo (Husband of Victim)]

We lived on the west side all our lives. I knew Mary from kindergarten in grade school. That person was my reason for living basically. I mean that was my love.

[Jillian]

She was my reason for living. That was my love.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And we get like the story from the night before. So Bob says that like the night before they'd gone to a wedding in Pueb, dropped the daughter off with Mary Lynn's mom. They had a great time at the wedding. Happy to hear.

[Jillian]

Even now he smiles when he talks about how much fun that wedding.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because I was on, I was also thinking like that was like his last good memory with her, you know. And like on the way back like his drunk brother and his brother's drunk wife are like in the car with them and he's saying like rather than taking them home, I was like just taking them back to our place so he could like sleep it off. Because our daughter's with the grandma. So there's an empty room.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so he takes his brother, his like drunk brother into the house to show him where he's gonna sleep.

[Jillian]

And also we don't know these family dynamics with the brother. The sisters in law s in law. Like we don't know what's going on. Cuz Mary Lynn is not happy.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so when he comes back out, Mary Lynn has jumped out of the car and she's running down the street. Now poor Bob tries to chase her but he can't because he's got a leg injury from work.

[Jillian]

And they're like really like the cops are like this is a hell of a story, Bob.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean once again still on the cops side.

[Jillian]

And today he's like no, no, no. Like he tells us, he's like, I understand it doesn't sound very realistic.

[Bob Vipondo (Husband of Victim)]

But he said she was very, very independent, very strong headed. Wasn't out of the ordinary for her to clear her mind. And with a quick jaunt around the block, we were living in proximity to her parents. I had figured she was either going to check on Coral and she'd either be coming home with her or calling.

[Jillian]

Me from there instead of like fighting with my husband. I'm gonna take, I'm gonna cool off. Cooler heads prevail. I'm taking a walk.

[Patrick Hines]

I wonder if everybody had fun at that wedding or just Bob, you know what I mean?

[Jillian]

But we also felt like everyone had a grand old time.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, we learned too that her parents live in the neighborhood and that's where their daughter is staying. So she doesn't come that night. And Bob just assumes that he goes to. That she goes to crash at her parents house to like be with the Kid. Yeah. And she'll be home in the morning. Like, these family dynamics are very normal. Mom, dad, live down the block, they're watching my kid. I'm mad at my husband. I'm gonna go see. But over there.

[Jillian]

And Bob is like stressing to us today. Like, hey, all you, like, true crime, crazy people. Like, I wasn't worried at all. I had no reason to be worried. Yeah, she knew this area inside and out. She was always going for walks, like it. Her parents were right there and she was kind of mad at me.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So like it makes sense that she wasn't like, okay, I love you, bye. Like, whatever they were, I don't want to make it like worse. But she was for him. He was like, well, obviously she probably wouldn't want to call me. It's late, I'm dealing with these drunk people. She's at her parents house. Like she had no reason to worry.

[Patrick Hines]

You should clear it with your person before you just invite your drunk brother and his wife to spend the night.

[Jillian]

I mean, who knows, you know what I mean? Like, what are those dynamics?

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

So Bob wakes up, the sun is coming up, and Marilyn isn't home. And the first thing he does is go look for her. And I'm like, yes, Bob, right answer.

[Bob Vipondo (Husband of Victim)]

So I went down to her mom's, went inside, could tell right away that she wasn't there. I drove around and, well, there was sirens, you know, heard the commotion and came around to 27th street where I could park the car and walked up onto the scene.

[Patrick Hines]

That's how he knows it's her. Like, oh my God. My wife didn't come home last night. I see her socks in the alley. This now tells me where she's been. And that's why he was acting so crazy at the crime scene. So it was a crazy story that he just like showed up there and was all upset. But it does make sense.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Now I believe Bob. But Joe Kenda and his Tommy Gum.

[Patrick Hines]

Donald, he needs another. He, he's going to need a little more information.

[Jillian]

He's not comfortable yet. He's.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jillian]

So he's going to ask Bob the hard questions, which are questions that all husbands should be asked. So sorry to break it to you.

[Patrick Hines]

No, I agree.

[Jillian]

Any history of violence? Have you ever hit Marilyn? Have you ever wanted to?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. He says no to everything, but they don't believe him. I'm like, what is it going to take for you to believe him?

[Jillian]

And lest we forget, Bob's hair is jet black, not bleached. The one piece of evidence we have does not match up with this guy. And they're like, let's give him a polygraph. He's extremely truthful. I'm like, the polygraph did it. Not the fact that he doesn't have.

[Patrick Hines]

Bleached hair and the fact, too, that this woman clearly fought for her life. There's not a scratch on this guy.

[Jillian]

Also, this is the most horrible day of this guy's fucking life.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. And he's just trying to do whatever he can to get them to check him off so they can go look for the. Because every minute we're sitting in the police station with this guy, the killer's out there.

[Jillian]

We're wasting precious time. And finally, Bob is cleared, and he's like, let's keep it moving. I agree.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And Bob says also now he's. Now he is part of the team. Now he is working with them.

[Patrick Hines]

And he says, following up with Bob.

[Guest/Expert]

We learn more about how she was dressed, what she had with her at the time. He's able to say that she's actually missing some items that we did not find at the scene.

[Bob Vipondo (Husband of Victim)]

Yeah. Mary Lynn had a jean jacket and her wedding rings. Engagement rings.

[Patrick Hines]

Her jean jacket. Her wedding ring. Her engagement ring. He draws a picture. I always wonder why they ask people to do this for a. I'm like, a ring is a ring. And unless you're, like, an actual artist, how do you draw a picture?

[Jillian]

I couldn't draw my own ring.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you.

[Jillian]

I couldn't draw it.

[Patrick Hines]

I feel very bad about it.

[Jillian]

Ask me what shape the ring is. I couldn't tell you because it was.

[Patrick Hines]

Just going to be a circle with a couple of triangles on it, no matter what the ring is.

[Jillian]

Like, is that horrible? That I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

But also, like, are you an artist? You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

No, but. But I don't know what, like, the. If it's a cut, Like, I don't know. I didn't care. It was an antique, old ring. So I.

[Patrick Hines]

Where'd it come from?

[Jillian]

My mom had it. My grandmother had it. It was, like, an old, like, antique.

[Patrick Hines]

So your family gave it to Mike to give to you?

[Jillian]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, that's. Are we just learning your ring origin story together in real time?

[Jillian]

But, like, I didn't. Some people are very, like, I want, like, you know, like, a princess cut or whatever. Ask me to draw that gun to my head, I'm dead. Bye. I have no idea. I. But I know it's a certain shape. Like, I know some People are very particular, and if you can, great. But, like, I couldn't draw. Like, I wouldn't. I would never in a million years, if I'm dead, expect Mike to be like, this is the worst fucking day of your life. Now draw the ring.

[Patrick Hines]

Draw the ring. That's what I'm saying. Thank you for bringing it back. I don't know what, like, what is the use of drawing the ring?

[Jillian]

The worst thing that.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a circle.

[Jillian]

The worst thing that's ever happened to you just happened. Here's a pen and some paper. Draw.

[Patrick Hines]

Draw it.

[Jillian]

Like, what is this? A punishment?

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

I thought it was cleared anyway, but there are other things. Like the jacket. Like, other. She had very, very cool jewelry. And, like, her moccasins are cool. So he's just drawing other details to help him out. She had, like, super cool style.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and Joe kind of telling us.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Robbery and sexual assault rarely go together. So then you begin to wonder, could have been a memento taken by the perpetrator critter as a way to relive the moment. Is that this?

[Patrick Hines]

So she was robbed in addition to being sexually assaulted? He's saying that doesn't usually go together. So were these mementos that he took to, like, as a way to relive the moment? And I just forgot that that was a thing that happens.

[Jillian]

Disgusting. The only one who's allowed to keep trophies is Dexter because he kills the bad guys.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah.

[Jillian]

Like, totally keep them in the air shaft. In case you haven't watched Dexter 30 years later.

[Patrick Hines]

I know I've never seen it, but it's one of those things I am always like, shut. It's today, the day I start Dexter.

[Jillian]

It's a. It's a heavy lift, you know, and, like, it's a commitment.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Season three alley, though.

[Jillian]

I think so.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's good.

[Jillian]

And Michael Seal is great.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Guest/Expert]

Girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Zip Recruiter is back. Look, if you're learning to hire, like, the best possible people, like, the fastest way you possibly can, zip recruiters. Where you're going to do that.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Because it's hard to find people who are so good at what they do.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Not everyone is us, girl.

[Jillian]

It's like, if you're hiring, how can you find the best people for all the different roles on your team? We have a solution called Zip recruiter.

[Patrick Hines]

We sure do.

[Jillian]

And right now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com/TC oh, so, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

ZipRecruiters matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste your time and money. And I have used it, and I can vouch for this.

[Jillian]

Right, because that way you're finding things right away.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

So that way you can find out right away how many job seekers in your area are qualified for your role. Like, usually you're just kind of jumping in and being like, anyone? Does anyone need anything? Is this anything? No. Zip Recruiter takes all the guesswork out of that.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. You need a recruiter in your life. Let's recruiter help you find the best people for all your work roles.

[Jillian]

Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, that was me. See for yourself, fam. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. It's ZipRecruiter.com TCO again, that's ZipRecruiter.com tco ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire. I know I've done it because I'm the smartest.

[Jillian]

I mean, exclamation point.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you so much.

[Jillian]

So now we're going through the original autopsy, not with the people who went through it originally, but, like, it's just being explained to us by experts. And we learn Mary Lynn was fighting for her life. No exaggeration. There are tons of defensive injuries. She was stabbed three times in the chest in the same place. Like. Like one. Like they describe it. They say like, one, two, three.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, the stab wounds weren't what killed her. The cause of death was a massive blunt head trauma to the head. And, like, we skipped this in the beginning, but there's a rock down the pat path from the alley, and the. The rock is covered in blood.

[Jillian]

It was a very, very violent sexual assault. It was a very, very horrifyingly violent thing.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

But this piece of shit left his DNA, and he had no idea how valuable this would end up being.

[Patrick Hines]

And he did. Probably never even heard of DNA. You know what I mean? Like, great. I mean, my God, they used to get away with murder, literally.

[Jillian]

Great. Stephanie Redfield says the sexual assault was incredibly violent. The kind of person that does this is obviously someone very distracted, disturbed, someone who hates women with a passion. You're looking at a. An antisocial, evil person. This guy is violent. He's evil. He hates women. And she says, like, he's not a suspect. He's a monster.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So Cynthia is here. She's Marilyn's sister.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I love that. Joe Kenda says that he doesn't like to outsource the telling of the family about a murder. He does it himself. I thought that was pretty.

[Jillian]

He's like. It's the worst part of the job. It doesn't feel right to say, like, hey, kid. Hey, rook, you do it?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

So he goes to see the family. We meet sister Cynth, and, like, I mean, obviously, like, she just says, like, we. We always hear this when you meet the family of a murder victim. Like, she was numb. She felt blown off the face of the earth. It was unreal. She's not over it to this day. How do you ever get over something like this?

[Jillian]

Yeah. And she's gonna tell us about Mary Lynn in a second. But this is where we get back with Dan May, who's the prosecutor. He cannot even talk about it today. What it was like being there. He is crying.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. It's almost 40 years later.

[Jillian]

He excuses himself.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And I think that is so, so important. We very rarely see that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

This was the first time he was there when a family was notified. Like, this man has been carrying this case for 40, 50 years.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, and the people who do these jobs, like, we owe them a debt when they do it. Well, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, it's the kind of thing that, like, takes a huge toll on people.

[Jillian]

So Marilyn was awesome. Cynthia tells us about her. Mary Lynn was very independent.

[Guest/Expert]

She did have a good, strong.

[Jillian]

She wasn't materialistic at all. She was a free spirit. She enjoyed life. She liked Pink Floyd.

[Guest/Expert]

I mean, you know, can't get much better than that.

[Patrick Hines]

Loved Pink Floyd. I'll never get it.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I'll never understand.

[Jillian]

I don't really get it either.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian]

She was a free spirit, enjoyed life, super active. There's a picture of her with a very, very, very cute dog. She was on the track team at school.

[Patrick Hines]

I never see it. I never even noticed it.

[Jillian]

She's in a picture with a really sweet dog, like some kind of cattle dog or something.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. That's so funny.

[Jillian]

But Bob continues. She was, like, amazing with, like, just so easy and lovely to be around.

[Patrick Hines]

I love knowing that they, Bob and Mary Lynn knew each other all through school, but they didn't start dating until after high school.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And so then after getting married for a bit, Marilyn went to college for sports medicine.

[Patrick Hines]

And she had, like, ride her bike uphill both ways. Yeah. Like, she didn't have a car. And they were saying that, like, she would love school. She was so into it. She rode her bike in any kind of weather. Like, she was really determined to like get a college degree and like better herself.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And Bob's like, everything was great. They had coral. He loved his family, he loved his life. Everything was coming up them. And he said this thing that's like. It's such a sweet way of saying it. He said our future looked rather bright. Like, broke my heart.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

So June 7, 1988. The cops are canvassing the neighborhood and Kenda tells us about this thing he would do where he would make a map of every single window that had a view of the crime scene. And that's what he would want the team to focus on. Like go talk to them. Because they must have, they had an angle here. They must have seen something.

[Patrick Hines]

So they find a young, a 12 year old girl named Cindy Hyatt. She's here.

[Jillian]

I can't believe it.

[Patrick Hines]

Did you notice, did you notice the thing? Thing?

[Jillian]

The what?

[Patrick Hines]

We're in her office. She has Blanch Devereaux wallpaper.

[Jillian]

Oh, hell yes.

[Patrick Hines]

She's got that Martinique wallpaper from Blanche Devereaux's bedroom. I was like, come on, Cindy Legendary.

[Jillian]

I was not expecting Cindy to be here.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian]

I thought they were going to be like, unfortunately it was a 12 year old. And she gave us no information. No, Cindy's here.

[Patrick Hines]

She's here. And she like remembers it happening. She said she was staying with her sister and her sister's boyfriend at their apartment. Her bedroom had a window that overlooked an alley. It was a warm night. She had the window open. She was having a hard time sleeping.

[Jillian]

About three o' clock in the morning, I heard a very brief, what sounded like a startled scream. There was no other follow up. I heard nothing else.

[Patrick Hines]

No follow up. I mean, how many of us hear this all the time?

[Jillian]

Yeah, she said she, she was like. There was nothing else that came after it. She heard nothing else. And she was laying there uncomfortable. She was maybe drifting in and out of sleep. It was hot out.

[Patrick Hines]

You never think like, you hear one startled scream, like you're not gonna call the cops.

[Jillian]

No, she was 12 years old.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

So she didn't make anything of it. She went back to like trying to go to sleep in the heat, which is the absolute worst. And meanwhile, Kenda and company are rounding up the usual suspects, which means men in the area with a history of rape and or violence. And they're walking among us.

[Patrick Hines]

So they identify one guy, a guy named Trenton Hayes. They tell us 24 hours after discovering the body, he was arrested for a DUI about A block away from the alley where Marilyn was found.

[Jillian]

They show us the map. Yeah, I mean, spitting distances. No shit.

[Patrick Hines]

This is where we start to get the Kenda, Keith Morrison. Well, now, Mr. Hayes, who might you be?

[Jillian]

Yeah, very, very, very similar. Like, don't come for me. But they're similar. Like. Oh, they are very similar.

[Patrick Hines]

100. I mean, when you're Kenda and you spend your nights, you know, three in the morning, driving around looking for the bad guys, you're saying this to yourself.

[Jillian]

Absolutely.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he's been saying this into mirrors and like in. Alone in his car for decades, right? Absolutely. Well, now, Ms. Pensivoli, who might you be?

[Jillian]

So this idiot gets a fucking dui, his truck is impounded. And they're like, well, we don't have. We can't get a search warrant for the truck. But there's nothing that says we can't look inside the windows.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, bending a rule here and.

[Jillian]

There, you know, Kenda ask for forgiveness.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

That's Joe Kenda. So he's like, sends two of his guys to the impound lot to like, peer in the windows and see what they can see. And they see some pretty incriminating shit.

[Patrick Hines]

I will agree.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

They see a sheath knife laying on top of a stonewashed jean jacket.

[Guest/Expert]

What?

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

We happen to be missing a stonewashed jean jacket. And our victim has three stab wounds. That certainly adds up nicely. See how he can explain this away?

[Patrick Hines]

It's a stonewashed jean jacket. And I. I actually, on second viewing, made a mental note to add, every single person in 1980s America had those.

[Jillian]

1988. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? Everybody had a stonewash jean jacket. So it's a little bit less amazing of the jacket because I think everybody had one. But the jacket was the knife. You know, it's a. It's an interesting pairing.

[Jillian]

Well, not just that. When they get eyes on Trent Hayes, he has bleach blonde hair, so. And there's more. So when they sit down with them, they're talking to him, and his shirt is open because it's missing buttons. And I'm like, someone fought for their fucking life. Maybe.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And there are scratch marks all over his chest and stomach. Remember, Mary Lynn fought like hell.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And on top of all that, his hand is bruised and swollen. And I'm like, this. We got him.

[Patrick Hines]

And now the thing about it is, he says this bruise came during the arrest for the. This guy fought the cops.

[Jillian]

I'm like, I can buy that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

You know, like. But like, oh. He's like, oh, the cops roughed me up a little bit. I'm like, dude, I totally get that. But combined with everything else, well.

[Patrick Hines]

And then we learn about his alibi. He says during the critical time of 2am to 3am he's asleep in his truck. But there's no one who can verify I said alibi or not. This is some hard living.

[Jillian]

And this guy sucks.

[Patrick Hines]

He's like getting arrested, fighting cops. He's got scratches and bruises all over his body. His hands are all fucked up.

[Jillian]

There's a jean jack that is not his. It's like a woman's jean jacket.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, well, so they got to run this guy's DNA. It's 1988, they're saying, I thought this was so interesting.

[Jillian]

1988. DNA was just beginning to be a forensic tool used to solve crime. It was still a comparison science. That was long before DNA databases were created.

[Guest/Expert]

At that time, the only thing you could do is, I've got this suspect. Well, let's take their DNA and compare it to the known DNA. Whoever never raped this woman.

[Patrick Hines]

It was still a comparison science. So there were no databases yet in 1988. So the only way to get somebody on DNA was to extract like a ton of blood, take hair from their pubic region and their hair, send it to the one lab in the country, in Maryland where they were doing the work and wait three weeks to get it back.

[Jillian]

Cell mark diagnostics was the only game in town.

[Patrick Hines]

Unbelievable. Every Dunkin Donuts, as much as I love them, turn every one of them into a lab.

[Jillian]

Also they do a reenactment of getting the saliva sample. This is like a Jane's Addict video. If you know, you know the up. I've never seen lips that close up in my life.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

I was like, what is this?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because now they do the swab, which seems so much more like a better way to do it.

[Jillian]

Then we get like a close up of the needle for the blood.

[Patrick Hines]

We do. I know, I know.

[Jillian]

The lip close up was so out of place for me.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. And it's. They need a lot of blood for the DNA comparison.

[Jillian]

Well, they take fudgeing everything and guess what? It's not a match.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's why I'm saying, so this isn't the guy. But so. But somehow still has cuts and bruises all over his body. Scratches everywhere, shirts that don't dui. Like DUI fought the cops. Like, this guy is living hard in Colorado City.

[Jillian]

My God.

[Patrick Hines]

Girl, Shopify is back. Look, it's New Year. New you if you want to launch that business or take it to the next level, Shopify is going to be the way.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And here's why. Because Shopify gives you absolutely everything you need to sell online and in person.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, fam. Millions of entrepreneurs just like me have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners. Just getting started.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And so Shopify gives you all the tools to easily build your dream store. They have hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize to match your brand. That I love because it's like I know what I want, but I'm not a designer. Like I don't know what I. I can't do it myself but I love choosing from a template and it's actually.

[Patrick Hines]

Really fun to do. Also, the setup is super fast, fam. With Shopify's built in AI tools that write product descriptions and headlines and help you edit product photos like they're doing all the hard stuff. You get to just do the fun part.

[Jillian]

Marketing is built in too. You can create email and social campaigns that reach customers where ever they're scrolling.

[Patrick Hines]

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you, fam. You can handle more orders, expand to new markets and do it all from the same dashboard, which even I can use.

[Jillian]

So in 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

[Patrick Hines]

Love it. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/eyed.

[Jillian]

Go to shopify.com/eyed.

[Patrick Hines]

That's shopify.com/eyed.

[Jillian]

Carrier first this new year with Shopify by your side.

[Patrick Hines]

That sound never gets old, girl.

[Jillian]

Never girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Helix is back. Look, we were both just on vacation for the holidays. How happy were you to get home to your Helix mattress? Because I was over the freaking moon.

[Jillian]

They always say there's nothing like sleeping in your own bed. But then like double, triple, quadruple that when it's a Helix mattress.

[Patrick Hines]

And we know it's so great because we both took the Helix sleep quiz. I don't know how every company doesn't do this. It takes like two minutes. You tell them your preferences. If you have a bedmate, you get your bedmates preferences. Then they like tell you the exact right mattress that is perfect for you.

[Jillian]

Yeah, we got the midnight Lux. And they're also mind readers apparently because that was years before we got Fiona. And Fiona also loves it.

[Patrick Hines]

There's also free shipping and seamless delivery. Like the mattress comes to you for free. I'm obsessed.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And they give you a 120 night sleep trial and a Limited lifetime warranty, so you can sleep in it for 120 nights to decide if you actually like it or not. Night one, you'll be like, I'm good, truly.

[Patrick Hines]

But I love that for us. Thank you. You helix.

[Jillian]

Thanks.

[Patrick Hines]

So fam, get in on the helix by going to helixleep.com TCO for 20% off sitewide.

[Jillian]

That's helixsleep.com TCO for 20% OFF sitewide.

[Patrick Hines]

Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. Yeah.

[Jillian]

Helix sleep.com TCO and then go to bed. And then please, every. Can everyone just go take a nap?

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you so much.

[Jillian]

But, like, how did Mary Lynn end up in this area specifically? Like, where would she. Was she going somewhere if she. She didn't go to her mom's house? So, like, what. What's open at 3am is the next question.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jillian]

So they're checking out the local bars.

[Patrick Hines]

Fred's, these old, like, Colorado city bars. Look awesome.

[Jillian]

Meadow muffins. You want to know what that is?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

You think I didn't Google it? Yeah, it's cow poop. It's a meadow muffin.

[Patrick Hines]

Shut up. Is it still open?

[Jillian]

That I don't know. I just googled what is a meadow muffin because I knew it had to be something. It's cow poop. Thunder and Buttons.

[Patrick Hines]

So that would be us if we were an ice skating duo.

[Jillian]

Yeah, yeah. You know what?

[Patrick Hines]

I'm Thunder.

[Jillian]

You are?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, I'll be Buttons if you want.

[Jillian]

What does that mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Thunder just means, like, I feel like to me, thunder means, like, big and sort of unruly. And Buttons is, like, cute and adorable. Oh, I'll be Buttons.

[Jillian]

I'm neither of those things. I'm neither of the. I'm neither Thunder nor Buttons. I don't think. Oh, I'm not cute and adorable.

[Patrick Hines]

Sam. I want to tell her about Fire and Ice, but she's not going to get it if you know. You know.

[Jillian]

Is this Modern Family? Sorry, it's not.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

I'm just not there yet.

[Patrick Hines]

Fire and Ice is, like, maybe my favorite gag on Modern Family.

[Jillian]

Remember the conversation we just had about Dexter and how I handled it?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

[Jillian]

I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, okay. We're not bullying you. We're just loving. We're loving you from afar.

[Jillian]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

That's. It's feeling very up close and personal.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, Thunder and Button.

[Jillian]

Afar where?

[Patrick Hines]

Please welcome Thunder and Button.

[Jillian]

I'm sure it's hysterical.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian]

That's period, end of sense.

[Patrick Hines]

Great.

[Jillian]

I'm sure it's hysterical. There's no caveat.

[Patrick Hines]

There's part of you that's not watching it on principle.

[Jillian]

But here's the thing. Now I can't.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

No. Because now, no matter what opinion I have, going to be wrong.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, watch it secretly. Never tell me. Just enjoy it. That's all I want for you.

[Jillian]

I will. The standout bar was Rogers.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Rogers Bar emerged because they served food after alcohol consumption. Closed at 2am so could she have been in there?

[Guest/Expert]

So that's what they did. They went to Roger's bar and they were talking to the bartender there because.

[Jillian]

They stopped serving booze at 2am but they kept serving food later than that and they'd be open till like 3am.

[Patrick Hines]

And I'm not saying every bar in the world needs to serve food late, but I am saying there should be a special Academy Award for bars that do.

[Jillian]

It feels.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

It feels weird to like, stop serving food, but to keep serving booze.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, I was a concierge in New York City for five years. The level of rage people who are visiting this town feel when we tell them there's nothing in the area after 11pm serving food. That's a very real thing. Like, there are not a lot of places in New York City that are open late and serving food.

[Jillian]

I guess maybe in that area necessarily, but like, the whole thing is like, you can get anything at any time.

[Patrick Hines]

Not true. I mean, as a concierge in New York, I remember, like, there were like, I couldn't list like five or six places you could travel to to get food at like 11:30, 12:00'.

[Guest/Expert]

Clock.

[Jillian]

Is it they. Were they not happy with the caliber of food?

[Patrick Hines]

No, it wasn't that. It was. It was the expectation that you can get anything. It's New York. You can get anything anytime. I'm like, I don't make the rules. I'm just the messenger. You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

So the bartender says to the cops she saw a woman that night. She's not sure if it was Mary Lynn, but that woman left out of the back exit, which, like, leads to the alleyway in question.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And on top of that, she's like, oh, also, there was a guy in here who I'd never seen before.

[Guest/Expert]

He was obviously intoxicated and was very belligerent to everybody and got to the point where he stood up, he just walked out the back door, didn't pay for anything, just left. She said she Remembered him very well because he had a rather large scar on his face.

[Jillian]

Not only was he, like, not a local, and he fucking stiffed me and didn't pay.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

But he had this really big scar on. And the cops are like, okay. Did he follow Mary Lynn? Like, what's the deal?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And I'm thinking, oh, my God. And it really is starting to hit me a lot in this episode that there is always an incredibly big chance that this is just a random act of violence.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Which is really scary to think about.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

Because it's not like, oh, who was this guy? What was his connection to Mary Lynn? It's like, oh, no. Did he see this, like, woman who was upset and follow her and take advantage of her in the fucking alleyway?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. So the bartender. Bless you.

[Jillian]

Sorry.

[Patrick Hines]

See, you are a. Buttons. That was the daintiest sneeze. We didn't even hear it.

[Jillian]

You can't grow up with my dad. And first of all, my dad is the loudest fucking sneezer on the planet. As all dads are.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian]

Why they do this, I don't know. I know, but he's also a good. You know, he's not getting germs anywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

That's true.

[Jillian]

Anyway, Buttons.

[Patrick Hines]

Started wearing Buttons.

[Jillian]

No, I'm not cute.

[Patrick Hines]

You are so cute.

[Jillian]

No, no, no, no. There are people who are super cute.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm more stuck on, like, what our rehearsals would be like for our ice skating. Like, what are we doing? Probably the Greatest love of all.

[Jillian]

That's like a love song, though, but.

[Patrick Hines]

Doesn'T be to each other.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Poses.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I. We are now. I mean, maybe we could do something to, like, get the party started by Pink or something Sundering Buttons. Okay. Okay, great. I'll see you on the ice of January.

[Jillian]

We can have a conversation. I just stepped one step forward.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, we're close.

[Jillian]

One step closer.

[Patrick Hines]

Not a party barge, but I'll take it.

[Jillian]

Okay. Close enough.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

The bartender meets with a sketch artist. Now, Kenda. Just a quick note. Kenda keeps talking about how the stress of the job made him smoke like crazy. And in all of these reenactments, the actor playing him is constantly smoking and brooding and brooding and smoking. And so he's behind the sketch artist's shoulder, like, puffing away in the reenactment as though Kenda.

[Patrick Hines]

He doesn't have the time to go down to the impound lot and look in the truck windows to see the knife in the jacket. But he's going to stand there While the sketch is being made. I don't think so.

[Jillian]

Kenda looking over his shoulder. Yeah, yeah, let him work. Let's let them cook.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

So Kenda also says that he's big. He says this as if he's the only person to ever do it. And I'm like, this should be standard. I'm glad he's doing it, but it got me frustrated.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

He's like, so when I have a lead meeting, which. Everybody down. Okay, do you know now what do you know? Tell everybody in the room. No one's lost. Everyone knows where the case stands. The process works very well because it's organized. Anybody could pick up the case and know what was happening. It's not one guy. It's all of us guys. It's a team.

[Patrick Hines]

He does this thing where he's like, I started having meetings with my guys and, like, sharing information. Like, the guy that you're sitting next to aren't. I am.

[Jillian]

And I'm like, I know that should be standard.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

But, like, I want to say, like, joe Kenda, use your power for good.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

People, like, love you and listen to you, and you're revered. Why don't you say, I'm the fucking homicide hunter. I'm Joe goddamn Kenda. I've done this a thousand times, and There are only 30 cases I haven't solved. And they keep me up at night. Here's how you should do. Here's how you become me, everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

The homicide hunter. What a fucking moniker. Like the homicide hunter.

[Jillian]

Joe, help us out. Well, you can really help us out, I think. Joe.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. They get the sketch done. The bartender's like, yeah, that looks just like him. They share this thing all over town. People who knew Mary, people who didn't know her. Nobody knows this guy.

[Jillian]

Nobody knows anything. There's no information about Mary, no leads, no suspect. Like, who is this piece of shit?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So it's February 1989. Eight months later, the Colorado cops get a phone call from the Hutchinson Police Department in Kansas.

[Patrick Hines]

This scene was making me chuckle because one of the people arrested, a woman named Rachel Kep, thinks she has information in the Maryland via Pondo case. Case.

[Jillian]

To which I say, okay, Rach, dazzle me.

[Patrick Hines]

But my thing is, I feel like as the cops are kicking down the door to the house they're robbing, she's like, I don't.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like she had this in her back pocket for months.

[Jillian]

At first, yes. And then I'm like, But then I don't know. So here's her story.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

She used to live in Colorado Springs, which is where this happened. With a guy named Mike Lauderman. Who she was arrested with.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

In the summer of 1988, Mike Lauderman ran through.

[Patrick Hines]

I love how you say his name.

[Jillian]

Lauderman.

[Guest/Expert]

Waterman.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm not giving you. I know, I know.

[Jillian]

I, I. Ladderman.

[Patrick Hines]

Cathy, Florida.

[Jillian]

No, coffee is how everyone else says it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, yeah, coffee, coffee, coffee. I also say crayons. Like I color with crayons. I know. I don't know. Anyway, Mike Waterman, he ran through the.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Alleyway, reached the house. He was all out of breath and was doubled over, totally out of sorts, distressed to the maximum with scratches and marks on them. She stated she did ask him what was wrong. He made the following statements. I've done something really bad. I can't believe what I've done.

[Jillian]

I've done something really bad. I can't believe what I've done. Rachel doesn't ask him. He doesn't elaborate. She has no more information.

[Patrick Hines]

But she's like, you know what I'm gonna do? Stick that in my back pocket and go rob a house in Kansas City, you know what I mean?

[Jillian]

With the guy who did something horrible that he can't even talk about it. I'm not gonna ask.

[Patrick Hines]

She thinks this is her get out of jail free car. I looked her up to see if she, like any prison time. I couldn't find anything about her, but I'm like, rachel, did it work for you, girl?

[Jillian]

I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

I guess not. I guess it did. If you don't have any information on her, there's no other record, I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, two detectives get the car and drive to Kansas. I'm like, we're planes, not an option. Like, they're going to drive seven hours.

[Jillian]

It's just be easier to, like, get, I guess.

[Patrick Hines]

But once again, like being in the car with like, somebody for seven hours each way.

[Jillian]

Yeah. Hell of a playlist. Now we get the most famous Kenda ism there is.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Yeah, well, my, my, my, now, where'd you get that, Mikey? Where'd you get that?

[Jillian]

Where'd you get that, Mikey? Where'd you get that? My, my, my is the big one.

[Patrick Hines]

My, my, my, my. Because Keith says that too.

[Jillian]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

I wonder if he stole it from Kenda.

[Jillian]

I don't think we don't have to pit these two.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what?

[Jillian]

You're right.

[Patrick Hines]

Why are we doing that? They're gonna end up doing their own Lilith Fair, you know what I mean?

[Jillian]

Yeah, they're different lanes, apples and oranges, 100%. So they ask him that very question. Where did you get that scar? We have the story. What did you do in the alley? Where's the scar from? What's going.

[Guest/Expert]

Three weeks ago I was shoplifting from Kmart and ran from the security guard and we got in a tussle and that's how I got this scar on my face. We need to look into this further.

[Patrick Hines]

Three weeks ago he was shoplifting from a Kmart and got into a tussle with a security guard. These people are.

[Jillian]

One thing led to another. You know how it goes hard. You know how it goes.

[Patrick Hines]

Stealing from a Kmart. God.

[Jillian]

So then, then he's like, oh, and another thing. This guy just keeps talking. He puts himself a block away from the crime scene. He's like. And then after that, I was staying at a motel a block away from where Mary Lynn was raped and murdered. But that's it. He's not involved.

[Patrick Hines]

But. Well, they're like, well, you know what we're going to do? Take your DNA. He voluntarily provides a DNA. As soon as they do that, I'm like, they didn't do it, girl. Ritual is back. Happy New Year. Tell us everything.

[Jillian]

Happy New Year. Here's the thing about ritual. It's all about taking the pressure off. We have too much pressure in our lives. Okay.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Yes.

[Jillian]

Yeah. So their evidence based essential multivitamins contain key nutrients that are often missed in the average diet. Whether it's the holiday season or not, or you're just starting the new year. Whatever.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

You get all of these essentials in high quality bioavailable forms that your body body can actually use.

[Patrick Hines]

And look, we love the science. Ritual even conducted a university led clinical trial for their essential for women 18 plus multivitamin to assess its efficacy.

[Guest/Expert]

Girl.

[Patrick Hines]

And you want to know what they found? Some amazing stuff.

[Jillian]

Tell me.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. It increases vitamin D levels by 43% and Omega 3 DHA levels by 41% in just 12 freaking weeks.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And that's all great and I will take all that, but I'll do you one better. Rituals Essential is third party tested for heavy metals and clean label project certified. So what that means is you know exactly what you're putting in your body on roll a regular basis.

[Patrick Hines]

Go off Ritual.

[Jillian]

Come on.

[Patrick Hines]

So fam. Instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health for a limited time.

[Jillian]

Save 40% on your first month at.

[Patrick Hines]

Ritual.Com TCO that's ritual.com TCO for 40% off your first month.

[Jillian]

Do it. Oh, it's minty fresh. The capsules are minty fresh. Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I almost forget. They take his DNA, it's not him.

[Jillian]

And I'm like, wait, so what did this guy do that he ran into Rachel's house? Out of breath. Whatever. They're all clear.

[Patrick Hines]

I think Rachel made that story up. What if I'm being honest?

[Jillian]

So the Kmart story is true. Whatever. I know they're at a total dead end. Kenda sucking down cigarettes like his life depends on it. Case goes cold. It is now inactive. And like, I can't even imagine the family. Days, weeks, months, years.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I mean, especially because it was like, on the cutting edge of DNA technology. Like, they should have been able to find the guy, but there were no databases. You know, like, that's really the big. The big stumbling block here.

[Jillian]

So Cynthia, the sister. As the years were going by, I felt that there was a dark cloud over my head. I tried to keep the story alive so that people would not forget my little sister Mary Lynn, and the horrible death she suffered. Like always, the family takes it on. It's up to the family to keep the story alive, to get some kind of, like, closure or truth or justice or whatever. Or just something.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Joe.

[Jillian]

Ken feels awful. He's like, this is my fault. I can't. Everyone is suffering. I can't solve the thing. I'm supposed to solve the thing and I can't do it. And now everyone is suffering because of me. And also on top of that, Bob, the poor husband is now a suspect in some people's mind because there is no suspect. And they're like, oh, the husband must have. So this guy's life is ruined in two different ways.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Cuz now, like, everyone thinks he did.

[Patrick Hines]

It, but I'm like, don't people read the papers? Like, the cops cleared this guy.

[Jillian]

People don't care. I guess, like, he's just it now. Like, who else could it be?

[Patrick Hines]

They wonder.

[Jillian]

So this is what Joe Kenda. And I'm like, Joe, he goes. Many times, victims are participants in their own demise by living a high risk lifestyle. But that's not the case with Mary Lynn. She's an innocent victim, Joe.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, Joseph. I know.

[Jillian]

This was made in 2023.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Like, how very.

[Patrick Hines]

I told you before we started, like, there's some stuff that he says I don't like.

[Jillian]

How very dare you.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

You should know better.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't call her honey. Don't blame the victim for being murdered.

[Jillian]

But like, to add to. To say, like, high risk lifestyle.

[Patrick Hines]

I know it's such an old school way of thinking. It's like that used to be acceptable to say out loud.

[Jillian]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean?

[Jillian]

Marilyn was innocent as opposed to what?

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Sex worker. You know what I mean? Like, we've seen this 100 times.

[Jillian]

So this is when Dan May, the DA who was like, really, really affected by it, is like visiting the scene 30 years later and walking us through it again.

[Patrick Hines]

And the crime scene hasn't changed at all.

[Jillian]

So September 1, 1996. This is eight years after the rape and murder of Mary Lynn Vipondo. Joe Kenda retires.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, joe, you're like, it's 20, 23. You retired in 1996. Were you 20? Like, you. Like, he could still be working today?

[Jillian]

Yeah. You know, and he leaves behind a 31 unsolved homicides, including this one. He knows every detail of every unsolved case, and he's always thinking about them because he's like, all I want is to be able. He goes, all I want is to be able to point a gun at somebody and tell them they're under arrest. And he wants it for the family.

[Patrick Hines]

Well. And so then we jumped to 2017, where we meet the new guys. They establish a cold case squad. James and I love that Jim is the calm one. Joe describes himself as unmitigated anxiety disaster.

[Jillian]

Chaotic anxiety disaster.

[Patrick Hines]

Talk about thunder and buttons that always.

[Jillian]

Wanted to be doing something.

[Patrick Hines]

Joe, Thunder and buttons.

[Jillian]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Those are the real thunder buttons. But it seems like Joe Kenda is still really involved. It seems like he doesn't work there anymore, but it feels like he's at the station every day, hovering, smoking, smoking.

[Jillian]

Smoking and brooding and hovering. And so the DNA kept this case alive. And everyone in the case believed in DNA even back then, like, they knew it would help cases. So keeping the DNA the way they did was monumental. And Jim says that was the key to blowing this whole thing wide open.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so by 2017, they say DNA had come leaps and bounds.

[Guest/Expert]

If you had been charged with a felony and went to, say, a local jail, your DNA was, was collected. It was submitted into codis. Every night at midnight, the CODIS system goes through all the unknown, unmatched profiles and bounces it off all the profiles that are already in codis every night.

[Patrick Hines]

At midnight, the CODIS system at the stroke, at the stroke of midnight, goes through all of their cases and tries to match them. So anything new that's been uploaded within the last 24 hours at midnight, tries to get matched to all of the CODIS cases all over the country.

[Jillian]

I watched that 10 times.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

I was like, are they saying to me that there's a possibility for an answer every single day?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Jillian]

Is that what that means? Yeah, because that will, like, help me get up in the morning. You know what I mean? Like, if that's really. That's what they're saying, just seem like.

[Patrick Hines]

Coding, you know what I mean? Like, shouldn't that just be so easy to do? Like, you know what I mean?

[Jillian]

Like, but that it scans everyone that's been uploaded all around the country.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And every single day, there's a. At any time of day, there's a possibility that there's a match being entered. Like, is that. That's what they're saying, right?

[Patrick Hines]

I think so. That, like, at midnight, it's like, anything that's been uploaded today gets matched to anything that was already there.

[Jillian]

So every. Every day.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

That's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

But they're also saying that, like, it's amazing that that happens, but there's still, like, so the. The killer's DNA is in codis, and every day they try to make a match, and every day there isn't one. So where is this?

[Jillian]

And it's like, so it's been 30 years, and nothing like this hasn't been arrested since he did this evil and awful thing. Like, how?

[Patrick Hines]

And they're saying, like, well, maybe he's dead. Maybe he's out of the country. Joe kind of was like, maybe he moved to France.

[Jillian]

Yeah, no, we're not that lucky, Joe.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian]

So June 6, 2020, 2017. Jim and Joe are sick of waiting.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and there's a new DNA technology called phenotyping. And I remember when this came out.

[Jillian]

So there were laboratories out there that were looking at portions of DNA which could give an indication to physical attributes of individuals. The eye color, hair color, and sometimes even whether or not they have freckles.

[Patrick Hines]

It's using DNA to actually get a literal picture of what the person likely looked like.

[Jillian]

There's no reason not to try this. They have to move forward with this. Like, they have to use this. If it's at their disposal by October 2017, the results come back. White male. Duh.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, when you see the picture, at first you're like, that's just what every white guy looks like.

[Jillian]

And remember, it's not a sketch. It's like a facial rendering.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jillian]

So, like, bleached hair and blue eyes. And I'm like, the Only thing new is that there's blue eyes.

[Patrick Hines]

But I will say, when we get the guy, it's like it could be.

[Jillian]

A photograph of him.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So they send it off to the news stations, the Internet. It's everywhere. And crickets. No leads. Not a single call. Nothing. The only good news is that there's attention to the case again. But in terms of like, moving forward, everyone. Everyone thought like, this has got to be something, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Guest/Expert]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is wild because when we find the guy, he's lived in town the entire time.

[Jillian]

This is also where we see a news clip that says that this is the first case in Colorado where they collected DNA.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

That is really interesting. And they failed to tell us that.

[Patrick Hines]

They said it early on. I noticed it the second time. I was like, Joe kind of says it. He' like, this was the first time we were. He's like, that was when he called it the DNA, like the sciencey mumbo jumbo. It was the first time we were using it. So we'll give it a try, I guess.

[Jillian]

But he kind of made it seem like that was the first time, like his department was using it. That this was the first case in Colorado.

[Patrick Hines]

That's a. Yeah.

[Jillian]

That's a big deal.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian]

So November 30, 2017.

[Guest/Expert]

I remember getting a message from a CBI coordinator at CODIS saying they had a match in the case. The sample had been entered maybe around midnight, 4am she said she had a match in this case. I remember hanging up the phone, just being elated.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

It turns out the DNA is that of a 45 year old Caucasian male whose name is James Edward Babel.

[Jillian]

CODIS finds a match. It's uploaded into the system. At four in the morning.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. The guy's name is James Edward Papel. Is that how you say it?

[Jillian]

Papal mugshot first? It is. It is like I'm seeing the DNA right. Rendering.

[Patrick Hines]

It is unbelievable because when I first saw the DNA rendering, I'm like, that's just a generic white guy. It looks just like him.

[Jillian]

Shocking that. A generic white guy. Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian]

The numbers don't lie.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

No one's ever heard of this guy. He's not in any statement. He's not on a single piece of paper. They're like, where did he come from?

[Patrick Hines]

Meaning they've never heard of him in the case file. Like he was never mentioned in all of the years. Nobody ever talked about this guy as a possible suspect. And. But they basically do a search of this guy. They get his date of birth, 1972. He was 15 years old when he raped and brutally murdered Mary Lynn.

[Jillian]

I was like, 15. I was like, is this going to be another twist that it was a mistake in CODIS or something? I was like, 5th.

[Patrick Hines]

15 years old.

[Jillian]

Meanwhile, because there's so much attention on the case, Amanda Anderson reaches out to the cold case unit, and she's here to tell us what she told them. She's this guy's very first girlfriend. She met him when they were teenagers in, like, 19, 1989. Right after.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Raped and murdered Mary Lynn.

[Patrick Hines]

And they were living in a group home together. And she says, like, he was just incredibly violent, incredibly abusive to her. She describes him as just having this, like, dark rage in him.

[Jillian]

He was hyper focused on women. She said.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep. And, like, he would slap her, he would punch her. He said one time he hit her over her head with a heavy army bag full of clothes that collapsed her neck into her shoulders.

[Jillian]

Those things are gigantic. My mom has one that her father used in the war. So it was like, super dark sandbags. They're. It's huge.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And if it was film and that canvas is so thick because it needed to, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Like, you know, survive the elements or whatever. This is not like your gym bag.

[Patrick Hines]

No, exactly.

[Jillian]

It's huge. And it's.

[Patrick Hines]

Even when there's very heavy.

[Jillian]

When there's nothing in it, it's heavy.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian]

It's crazy. So Amanda was super, super scared of James. I was extremely scared of James. I knew that at one point I would end up dead if I didn't get out of it.

[Guest/Expert]

She said he was very capable of, you know, killing someone.

[Jillian]

That would be the only thing that would maybe satisfy his rage. Kill somebody.

[Patrick Hines]

She tells him, too, that, like, he was very capable of killing somebody. She says maybe that would be the only thing that would satisfy his rage.

[Jillian]

So the cops look into him. He's a local guy. He's in the community.

[Patrick Hines]

That's the thing. When they're circulating his picture and, like, he's. He's been living there since 1988. He never left.

[Jillian]

He has kids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

He's been married twice. Twice. And all of the women in his life are like, oh, that violent, abusive asshole. Like, yeah, I know him. He's definitely capable of.

[Patrick Hines]

And we see, like, some of the police reports kicking, punching, strangling, choking. Like, he's been beating on women his entire life.

[Jillian]

And he said at one point, he said to them, I've killed better than you.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Jillian]

Are you crazy?

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

And it's like, we have all this documentation. What are these pieces of paper supposed to do? Exactly? That's what the women filed them, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

All the documentation is here. We're only looking at it. Thirty years, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Because every time he goes to trial, he, like, claims the insanity defense. In 2006, he had six different felonies all at the same time. He was found not guilty of them by reason of insanity. And he goes to the state mental hospital in Pueblo. And we're back with Stephanie, the DA who's like, I'm no health expert, but I'm calling bullshit.

[Jillian]

I can't diagnose him. He's not my patient. I hate when they say that, but I get it.

[Patrick Hines]

She just doesn't buy it. She's like.

[Jillian]

But he's very, very good at working the system and manipulating people. James Papel was an outpatient at cmhip, the Colorado Mental Health Institute of Pueblo. And he was living with a nurse that worked at cmhip, just evidencing his ability to manipulate.

[Patrick Hines]

He's living with one of the facilities.

[Jillian]

Nurses, not as part of his treatment.

[Patrick Hines]

No.

[Jillian]

But, like, romantically and, like, as a couple. So he's in the custody of the hospital, but he's not living.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And then he's also living with a nurse that worked there, but not officially. They're just shacking up.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

This guy can manipulate any situation that he's in.

[Patrick Hines]

He knows exactly what he's doing. So they go to see this guy. He's super nervous.

[Jillian]

What's this all about?

[Patrick Hines]

He's asking 5,000 questions in the hallway. They're like, let's go to a room.

[Jillian]

And when they're like, oh, you want to know what we're here about? We're here about a homicide. It's a cold case. His face drops.

[Patrick Hines]

They slide over a picture of Mary Lynn, and he just, like, stone cold.

[Jillian]

So they read him his rights. He goes, he doesn't want to talk. They go, okay, fine. So however he to doesn't want ask.

[Patrick Hines]

A lot of questions.

[Jillian]

They have a court order for his DNA.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And he already said. He said the magic word. I don't want to talk. And they're like, okay, we won't say a word. We do have to take your DNA. As they're taking his DNA, he's like, well, he's asking all these questions. And they're like, well, sorry, buddy, we should. You asked for a lawyer. We actually shouldn't even. I'm telling you.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

I really can't Answer your questions. And he's like, yeah, but I'm curious and kind of scared. And they're like, well. And as they're walking out, he's like, will I ever see you again? And, oh, yeah, you could bet on it.

[Patrick Hines]

We promise we'll be back.

[Jillian]

So they send the DNA off to see if it's a hit for the second time. And I'm like, didn't CODIS already tell us?

[Patrick Hines]

I know. It takes another three fucking weeks. And now they're. They're saying that, like, while they're waiting, they're trying to track down people he knew. They're looking for somebody that he confessed to.

[Jillian]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And they find his mom and they go talk to her. Apparently, she's like a cat lady.

[Jillian]

They had a long chat on the. On the porch. Joe says not Kenda Joseph, the former detective. Yeah. We were in the presence of numerous cats that hung out in the neighborhood. Yeah. Reading right from his report.

[Patrick Hines]

The felines.

[Jillian]

There are numerous felines in the vicinity of the area that I saw with my ocular eyeballs.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jillian]

Here's what she tells them.

[Guest/Expert]

So James Papel told his mother that if they found DNA on the body, that it's because I. I stole some jewelry from her, but she was already dead when I came across her in the alley. He says, you know, I. I took her jewelry, but I didn't. You know, I didn't sexually assault her.

[Patrick Hines]

I did murder her.

[Guest/Expert]

So they must have got it from that. But that's not where we found the DNA.

[Jillian]

So my DNA is definitely going to come back. But it's. I didn't rape or kill anybody, but she was already dead and I stole the jewelry.

[Patrick Hines]

Cut to Stephanie was like, yeah, we have your sperm, asshole.

[Jillian]

What the. What this piece of shit doesn't know is that DNA isn't like, his hair. Just his hair. It's his sperm.

[Patrick Hines]

Or like he thinks it's fingerprints or whatever.

[Jillian]

He can't talk his way out of this one. There's no way.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And to the surprise of no one, this guy's a match for the second time. And he's the fudgeing killer.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, the match. By the way, the likelihood is 78-10-percent that it's him.

[Jillian]

What even is that? 78-10-illion to 1,800 million zeros at the end.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jillian]

So in his mug shot, DNA has.

[Patrick Hines]

Never been more sure of anything. Honestly, you know.

[Jillian]

Good. They're like, that hair is doing him no favor.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

In his mugshot, you see this Shamrock tattoo. It's a horrible tattoo. It doesn't have to be. But whoever did this is a terrible tattoo artist. But Kenda goes, well, he's been lucky.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Up to now, but he needs to add two letters to his tattoo. The letter U and the letter N.

[Jillian]

U and N. I almost texted that.

[Patrick Hines]

To you this morning.

[Jillian]

And he kind of chuckles and.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

Good one.

[Patrick Hines]

Good one, Kendra. Good one.

[Jillian]

So, but this means he was really 15 years old.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

There's no glitch. There's no accident. There's no typo. He was 15 when he did this. And how did he avoid getting caught for 30 years? I mean, beating women and allowed to get married twice and have kids and all this shit.

[Patrick Hines]

The whole reason he never got caught was because his DNA was never entered into the system. So whatever he did, like, he didn't get. Or he was getting off by reason of insanity. So they were never taking his DNA. Like, it is a problem wild today. And did he kill other people that we have?

[Jillian]

So he, you know, I would bet that he probably did.

[Patrick Hines]

He must have.

[Jillian]

And he was very close to doing it again at the very, very least. But there are so many. The thing. The reason the system sucks is because there are so many. They're going through pages and pages and pages of paperwork and all of these women who are like, he was a violent asshole who was going to kill me.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

And. And yet.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

He's shacking up with the nurse and he's just, like, out in the world.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

Decades.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Jillian]

It's crazy.

[Patrick Hines]

Terrifying.

[Jillian]

So he's charged with murder in the first degree. He's being tried as an adult.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Jillian]

And so this guy tries to do the insanity plea again, and the DA is like, bring it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

He goes, oh, I'm going to get that son of a bitch.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is so funny because they go to trial and, like, during jury selection, there was a Covid exposure, so they declare mistrial. And while they're, like, recasting the jury, he's like, you know what? Never mind. I'm just going to go ahead and take that plea deal.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And he is statement, though, is that he stabbed her and robbed her. He has no emotion, no remorse at all. He. We know he's lying.

[Patrick Hines]

They look at his statement because the family, of course, wants any information they can possibly get, and he gives them nothing.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And so Bob, you know, Cynthia calls him a coward. Cynthia, Marilyn's sister. Bob, to this day, I can't say.

[Bob Vipondo (Husband of Victim)]

For certain why I didn't jump over and Try to bring his neck and kill him right there. But. But it's what I wanted to do. It's what my mind was doing. I've killed him too many times in my mind before I even had a picture and a face and a person.

[Jillian]

I've killed him too many times in my mind before I even know his face.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So the theory on what happened, the cops have their theory because this guy lied even though we had him dead to rights.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

He lied.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

So the theory is that Mary Lynn took a walk to cool off, which was not uncommon for her. She did it a million times. Why would she be scared to do it?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

It was late. The killer noticed what they describe as an emotionally compromised woman. Like walking alone late at night.

[Patrick Hines]

And like a dark back alley, that's where nobody is, you know?

[Jillian]

Yeah. It was both a random act of violence and a crime of opportunity.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Jillian]

And so he attacks her and she fights back. And in the middle of the fight, they are saying that that's when she probably fell and hit her head on that rock.

[Patrick Hines]

I was like, that's what we're going with.

[Jillian]

That's what I guess what they're, you.

[Patrick Hines]

Know, like, that he didn't do that to her. Right.

[Jillian]

You know?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And over the course of the fight, he stabs her in the chest, pulls her clothes off, sexually assaults her, poses her body for the police and leaves her there.

[Jillian]

He's 15. He's 15 years old. And this is what Joe Kenda goes, look, this guy is what he is. He's a monster. He's evil. And he goes, was it because his mom abandoned him? I don't know. I don't care.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, we're doing that again.

[Jillian]

But no, we're not.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

Because he goes, what do we do with him now? Continue with an academic discussion and how he got that way? Or wrap him in barbed wire and put him in a dungeon? I prefer the barbed wire in the dungeon.

[Patrick Hines]

I prefer the barbed wire in the dungeon.

[Jillian]

And I'm like, joe, when you put it that way. Barbed wire all the way.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Jillian]

Hell yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

100%.

[Jillian]

So it's 20, 21, 32 years and 11 months to the date, and he's sentenced to 60 years. And the judge hates him too.

[Patrick Hines]

The judge says, straight up, I would have sentenced that 15 year old boy the exact same way. And the judge was a woman, by the way.

[Jillian]

Right. So Bob, the husband, hates the killer forever, obviously. And he's like, I blame, like whoever, like, made this guy this way.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, and like the Family never has any closure. They feel better knowing this guy's off the streets or whatever. But, like, no, of course there's never any closure for the families who suffer through something like this.

[Jillian]

Yeah. And it ends with Joe Kenda sending a message out to everyone who has so far gotten away with murder. Because Joken is not done with you.

[Patrick Hines]

He's not. I mean, he's retired, but he's not done.

[Jillian]

He goes to those people.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

And to those people, I wish them the fondest ever, the cruelest of deaths. They certainly deserve it.

[Jillian]

They certainly deserve it. All right, Joe, you got me. That barbed wire thing had me.

[Patrick Hines]

That's pretty good.

[Jillian]

He's right. When you think about it that way, what, are we going to talk about it and look in our little notebooks or are we going to put them in the barbed wire in the dungeon?

[Patrick Hines]

Put them in the barbed wire.

[Jillian]

Barbed wire in the dungeon.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God, girl. We did man without a face, the.

[Jillian]

Man with no Face. This is. And then like in parentheses, it's like, Joe Kendah, homicide hunter. So there are a few more of these. They're definitely gonna go on the calendar.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, so fun, fam. Don't forget to Join the discord. Don't forget to. Oh, my God. Follow us on YouTube and go check us out. We're almost at 200,000 subscribers.

[Jillian]

That's insane.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is just insane.

[Jillian]

Thank you all so much.

[Patrick Hines]

What are we doing next?

[Jillian]

So next up, we're doing the Trouble in Bardstown. This is one of those 90 minute datelines that just came out. Season 34, episode 7. This is a Crystal Rogers case. So people have been wanting us to cover this for a very, very long time. There's like six episodes, very like soap opera y Oxygen series from like 2018 that we haven't done. But there's now a full length doc, basically because it's a 90 minute thing and it just came out and so we're gonna do this instead.

[Patrick Hines]

Amazing.

[Jillian]

At the request of many of our lovely listeners.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, well, stay tuned for the trailer for that fam and we will see you soon.

[Jillian]

Bye.

[Patrick Hines]

We love you.

[Jillian]

Stay safe, please.

[Guest/Expert]

Bye.

[Jillian]

You know, people go missing every single day, but a mother who's in constant contact with her kids, that was getting everyone's attention. This is a mystery of where is Crystal Rogers?

[Patrick Hines]

You want to know why and how.

[Guest/Expert]

The car ends up on the Bluegrass Parkway?

[Jillian]

Mom would have never left her car. Just on the side of the road.

[Guest/Expert]

One of the rear tires is flat, and we felt like that. The positioning of the seat was not proper for where she would have had it. What do you think happened?

[Patrick Hines]

I'm. I'm shocked.

[Joe Kenda (Homicide Hunter)]

I do not know.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm up in the air.

[Jillian]

Answer, Fiddler.

[Guest/Expert]

We come out every day hoping we'll find something.

[Jillian]

Crystal's dad, Tommy, kind of started his own armchair investigation very early.

[Guest/Expert]

People were talking to Tommy and people were getting nervous. I'm not stopping till I find her.