484: Satan Wants You

Summary

True Crime Obsessed: Episode 484 – "Satan Wants You"

Release Date: February 10, 2026
Hosts: Tracy & Patty
Subject: Recap and discussion of the documentary Satan Wants You, focused on the origins of the “Satanic Panic” and its catalyst, the book Michelle Remembers.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the documentary "Satan Wants You," exploring the genesis and devastating ripple effects of the Satanic Panic. Tracy and Patty use their signature blend of humor, empathy, and outrage to unpack how one dubious memoir, Michelle Remembers, kindled a cultural firestorm of fear, false memories, and wrongful accusations in the 1980s and 90s. The discussion exposes the dubious evidence, exploitative psychotherapy, media circus, and lasting consequences of this era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins: Michelle Remembers and Dr. Lawrence Pazder

• [01:14] Patty introduces Satan Wants You as a documentary about Michelle Remembers, highlighting its role in the birth of Satanic Panic:

  "It's about the origin of satanic panic and like why we're here and all of the lies and bullshit that got us here." (Patty, 01:14)

• [02:28] The hosts break down Michelle Remembers, co-authored by patient Michelle Smith and her psychiatrist Dr. Pazder, noting its extreme (and uncorroborated) claims of satanic ritual abuse, animal sacrifices, and more.
• [04:18] Sarah Marshall (podcaster, contributor) calls Michelle Remembers "patient zero" of the panic.

2. The Therapy Sessions and Questionable Practices

• [06:23] Michelle's memories were supposedly retrieved by self-hypnosis, with Dr. Pazder encouraging her to "go where you have to go. I'll be there with you."
  (Michelle describing how her 'recovered' memories surface during therapy.)
• Tracy and Patty critique the lack of skepticism from Dr. Pazder and emphasize the abuse inherent in leading patients through traumatic (often false) memories.

3. The Book’s Publishing and Cultural Fallout

• [09:27] Details of Michelle’s “memories”: ritualistic abuse at five years old with her own mother present, deeply sensational and horrifying claims (sacrificial ceremonies, etc.).
• [13:47] Patty notes, “It became an industry,” with financial incentives for spreading and perpetuating the Satanic Panic myth.
• [27:14] The book’s massive advance:

  "$245,000 US advance for the book. That's $930,000 in today's money." (Interviewee, 27:40)

4. The Media Frenzy and the Expansion of Panic

• [28:04] Michelle and Pazder embark on a two-year media tour, appearing on TV shows later famous for sensational stories.
• Talk show culture is critiqued:

  "You go on television and say, I was part of this...they want the attention. They want to be FL To New York for the guest of the Rosie o' donnell show..." (Tracy, 55:31–55:40)

• Sensational stories with zero proof proliferate, e.g., pizza delivery boy sacrificed, impossibly high missing child statistics:

  "At one point, we get a statistic that there are 3 million kids born in the United States every year, 2 million of them are missing." (Tracy, 31:10)

5. Institutionalization and Pseudo-Expertise

• Social workers, law enforcement, and even the FBI are swept up in the panic, attending workshops and seminars:

  “Anybody can just say that they're an expert and now they can lead the seminar... and you get an actual certification.” (Tracy, 35:27)

• Law enforcement resources are devoted to “identifying” satanic cult victims.

6. Family Testimonies and Exposing the Lies

• Michelle’s sisters and family provide a counter-narrative:

  “She was never missing for 14 months. My sister was never missing for 14 months. My mom had a really fucking hard life... Did not sacrifice any one of us.” (Tracy, 57:54)

• Yearbooks, French language awards, and other evidence debunk Michelle’s claims.

7. The Psychologist’s Ambition and Abuse

• Dr. Pazder’s motivations scrutinized:

  “All it took was him seeing that [Sybil] movie to be like, I want to be that kind of psychiatrist.” (Tracy, 47:14)

• Relationship between Pazder and Michelle devolves into boundary-violating obsession—grooming, emotional enmeshment, and eventual marriage (seen as mutual blackmail/protection).

8. Unintended (and Intended) Consequences

• The real panic led to wrongful convictions, destroyed reputations, traumatized children, and shaped modern-day conspiracies like Pizzagate and QAnon.
• The Catholic Church’s role as a funder and cheerleader for the book is discussed as part of the wider machinery of control and fear.
• Insurance companies eventually stop covering therapy, lawsuits ensue, and the panic wanes, but the legacy continues in current conspiracy culture.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Host & Interviewee Highlights

• On Michelle Remembers’ impact:

  “I think of Michelle remembers as the patient zero of the satanic panic." (Sarah Marshall, 04:18)

• On the 'evidence’ provided in the book:

  "There isn't much doubt in my mind something definitely happened to her. And I do believe it was a group of Satanists." (Chidi, Church of Satan Rep, 16:44) “No, Piper. No, Piper. No, Piper.” (Patty reacting to Chidi’s certainty, 17:01)

• On unconscionable therapy sessions:

  "Have I been in the middle of a therapy session? I've been like, can we do a double? And Jeff is like, absolutely sure. But, like, that's less than two hours. Six hours?” (Tracy, 18:26)

• On the media circus:

  “Why isn't anyone being like, like...Because I don't think anybody believes it.” (Tracy, 54:26)

• Gallows humor on the popularity of ‘experts’:

  “If I could levitate, I would have levitated the fuck out of Arkansas.” (Quoting Damien, West Memphis Three, 35:47)

Family Counterpoints & Revelations

• Family evidence:

  “They go back to her grade school and ask them for the yearbook... Her picture was right there. They said the picture was taken in the fall. Well, she was supposed to be locked up.” (Debbie Nathan, 64:44)

• French fluency debunked:

  “She won an award for French in high school. Michelle is an award winning French speaker.” (Patty, 65:17)

• Physical evidence missing:

  “There should be scars from that, right? No, the angel Michael came and took all of her scars away.” (Tracy, 65:35)

Big Picture Insights

• On confirmation bias and society’s complicity:

  “We are way past trying to get proof of this. Yes, that ship has sailed. Now, these two people are experts to live in fear because your kids are going to get eaten and sacrificed.” (Patty, 31:01)

• On the panic’s insidiousness:

  “The panic was real. And that's the problem.” (Patty, 38:45)

• Social media and conspiracy:

  “And it's crazy because, like, TikTok, all of these social media platforms only make it worse because they will only feed you the information that you're seeking.” (Tracy, 69:51)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• [01:14] – Introduction of documentary, “Satan Wants You”
• [02:28] – Overview of Michelle Remembers’ plot, outlandish claims
• [06:23] – Michelle’s memory-recovery ‘methods’; Dr. Pazder’s role
• [09:27] – Michelle’s first “memory” of ritual abuse
• [13:47] – Monetizing the book, creation of an “industry”
• [27:14] – Book’s advance, global reach
• [28:04] – PR blitz, "To Tell the Truth" game show appearance
• [35:29] – Seminars, certifications, and “expert” industrial complex
• [38:45] – Real panic and societal harm highlighted
• [41:35] – Connection to McMartin Preschool case (covered extensively)
• [54:26] – Media sensationalism, lack of skeptical questioning
• [57:54] – Family testimony debunking Michelle’s story
• [62:32] – Geraldo special and destructive reach
• [67:04] – Discussion of “Go Ask Alice” and propaganda parallels
• [68:56] – Insurance companies, lawsuits, and the end of the panic
• [70:12] – Aftermath: death of Dr. Pazder, ongoing fallout

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Tone and Style

• The discussion is lively, irreverent, and frequently tongue-in-cheek, but always returns to a core of empathy for victims and skepticism toward institutions.
• Running gags (Canadian names, the “Church of Satan” suing for defamation, drag queen “Remy Deroux”), meta commentary (e.g., on talk show guest culture, memories), and rapid conversational pivots keep the tone energetic and unpredictable.

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Takeaways

• Michelle Remembers and Dr. Pazder’s abuses of trust and power catalyzed decades of real-world harm, fueled by credulous institutions and a complicit media landscape.
• The Satanic Panic’s mechanisms—moral panic, profit, confirmation bias, and institutional irresponsibility—remain alive today, simply rebranded in contemporary conspiracy movements.
• Empathy and evidence, not fear and spectacle, are the only way out.

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For a rich, full breakdown including personal anecdotes and plenty of gallows humor, listen to the full episode.

Transcript

[Tracy]

I realized when I sat down that I'm wearing the exact same outfit I wore last time two days ago. Yeah, it's winter and I'm into flannel shirts now because I'm always cold.

[Patty]

It looks super warm.

[Tracy]

It's very warm. I love it very much. But they almost all. I have like five of them and they almost all look exactly the same. But this is the exact same one I wore last time.

[Patty]

Okay. So, you know, thank you for your.

[Tracy]

Honesty, the tube of you. But you're gonna see a lot of this shirt in the next couple of weeks.

[Patty]

We don't get a lot of honesty in this documentary, so I'm glad we're starting.

[Tracy]

You know what? You and I, let's vow to be honest with each other.

[Patty]

Look, no problem.

[Tracy]

Okay. Hi, Jillian Benavalli.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Hello.

[Patty]

Patrick Hines, fam.

[Tracy]

We have like over 210,000 subscribers on the tube of you. Please go watch our videos. They're so fun. Subscribe, join us there. They're just really. We are entertaining. I don't know what to tell you. That's what they say, you know?

[Patty]

You know, I've heard tell.

[Tracy]

Yeah, it's really fun. We also have a Discord.

[Patty]

We have a Discord. It's a server and then there are channels within that server and it's all really fun. And we talk about documentaries and also anything else. Like there are all different channels for all different things.

[Tracy]

Yeah. And so what do they do? How do they find it?

[Patty]

We have it linked in the show notes, I believe.

[Tracy]

Oh, that's true. Okay, great. So go do that. What are we talking about today?

[Patty]

Okay. It's a documentary called Satan wants you. It's on Apple tv, It's on Amazon. It's about the origin of satanic panic and like why we're here and all of the lies and bullshit that got us here.

[Tracy]

It's also about how Satan only speaks in rhyme and Mother Mary only speaks in French. Like there's a lot to unpack.

[Patty]

It's really funny that it's called Satan Wants yous because Satan really doesn't give a shit about you.

[Tracy]

Satan doesn't give a shit about you. The church of Satan really to do with Satan. We'll get into all of that. We'll get into all that.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Joining me now from Victoria is Michelle Smith, a one time victim of abuse by a satanic cult. And Dr. Lawrence Pazder, the psychiatrist who helped her come to terms with that nightmare.

[Tracy]

The book is called Michelle Remembers.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Michelle Remembers.

[Patty]

We wrote it together.

[Interviewee/Expert]

The first publicized account of such Rituals.

[Patty]

They would put me in cages, sacrifice.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Animals, eating feces and orgies and dismembering fetuses. These were things that you experienced?

[Patty]

That's right.

[Law Enforcement Official]

Who are these people?

[Tracy]

Well, they're a secret organization. They're secret society.

[Additional Interviewee]

When that book came out, I mean, all hell broke loose.

[Law Enforcement Official]

It was a theory that there's a satanic conspiracy and there are children who are kidnapped, stolen, and sacrificed.

[Consulting Expert]

It's known as the satanic panic. In the 1980s and 90s, I consulted on hundreds of these cases all over the western world.

[Law Enforcement Official]

And all of this was started by this book.

[Patty]

So this is about a book called Michelle Remembers.

[Tracy]

I never heard of this.

[Patty]

I never heard of it either, but it is very. Go ask Alice.

[Tracy]

Yes, yes. Yeah, very 70s, which I'll.

[Patty]

Which we'll talk about a little bit later, but. So it's written by this woman, Michelle Smith, and her psychiatrist, Lawrence Pazder.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And he, quote, extracted Michelle's memories about her time with a satanic cult. This is bullshit. It's abusive. It's insane.

[Tracy]

It's horrible.

[Patty]

I would like to say, for the record, like, before we start, I'm not here to argue the validity of repressed memories and extracted memor. Of talking about this specific instance. And in this specific instance, it was bullshit and abusive.

[Tracy]

Yeah. Like I was a lot of harm and did a. We're still living with it.

[Patty]

Yeah, we are.

[Tracy]

We're. We're. We're. We. I feel harmed.

[Patty]

We are harmed. You know, we were talking about this earlier. Like, the world we live in now is also a direct result of what happened here.

[Tracy]

So the first hockey head we meet is this woman, Sarah Marshall. I just want to give her her proper. She's a podcaster. She hosts that. You're wrong about podcast. Oh, my God, she's so amazing. She's so smart. I got a chance to have, like, a couple of phone calls with her once. She's just like a geni. She is very obsessed with satanic panic.

[Patty]

I feel like we get along very well, you two.

[Tracy]

Oh, you guys are. Your energy. I don't know her at all, really, but like, her, your energy is. Is different enough that you guys would be like a perfect match.

[Patty]

Yeah, but. And I love the podcast because it's all about, like, what you thought you knew about really fit. Like Anna Nicole Smith. They have a.

[Tracy]

They were the. They did the Tonya Harding thing before everybody else. You know what I mean? And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah.

[Interviewee/Expert]

To me, it was important to present a discussion about it to people because this book has helped shape the world we now live in and whose contents we have to have some understanding of if we're going to know how we got here. So I think of Michelle remembers as the patient zero of the satanic panic.

[Tracy]

She calls. Michelle remembers the patient zero of satanic panic.

[Patty]

And it's true.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

So chapter one of the book begins. This is very important. Begins with Michelle having a miscarriage.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

We hear a lot of audio of these conversations with her. And she's talking to Dr. Pazder and telling him about a dream she had. And this dream is like, her hand is really itchy. And then when she scratches at the hand, like, all these spiders come crawling out, and it's really upsetting to her. And I'm like, is that not normal?

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Do people not have dreams like that?

[Law Enforcement Official]

No.

[Tracy]

Do you have dreams like that?

[Interviewee/Expert]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

You do?

[Interviewee/Expert]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

Oh, no. I hate that for you.

[Patty]

I'm like, you know, I'm a very bad sleeper. I often have trouble sleeping for a great many reasons. Not with sheets that work or anything.

[Tracy]

I know. The sheets are great. The mattress is wonderful.

[Patty]

I know. But, like, my. I never have, like, oh, like, let's follow the purple frog into the garden and have.

[Tracy]

I was swimming with whales the other night.

[Patty]

You know, I've gone.

[Tracy]

I would never do in real life, but I was, like, swimming with the whales and I felt safe.

[Patty]

I wish, like, I've definitely had dreams where I'm like, oh, what is that? And then, like, pulling something out of me. So, no, I'm like, to me, it feels normal. It's like you're going through some shit. If you're having these kinds of dreams, like stress dreams, you work shit out in your dreams sometimes. So that didn't seem that crazy to me.

[Tracy]

Well, the one thing I want to point out about this relationship between Michelle and Dr. Pastor is that they had worked together for four years. They ended their therapy together. Then Michelle had the miscarriage and went back to him because he was the therapist that knew her.

[Patty]

Right. So let's go to Victoria, British Columbia, in 1976.

[Tracy]

I've been there.

[Patty]

Really?

[Tracy]

I went there for an afternoon with my friend Mike Jensen and his family. It's a lovely little city.

[Patty]

Victoria, specifically.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you. If I'm thinking of the right place, you can take a boat, like from Seattle or something, like from Washington, like right across the channel, the river, the gorge.

[Patty]

And then there's a body of water that you have to get across, and.

[Tracy]

You take a boat and then you go have A drink at a bar in Victor. It's beautiful. And then you come home.

[Patty]

That's so nice.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Okay, so in that really lovely town that Michelle should have probably just, like, taken a beat.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Enjoy nature.

[Tracy]

Honestly.

[Patty]

Michelle talks about what she's, quote, discovered about her childhood.

[Tracy]

This is coming to her through a form of self hypnosis.

[Additional Interviewee]

Is that through hypnosis, Doctor?

[Tracy]

Actually, it's beyond hypnosis. It's a method that Michelle had devised to go deep into her depths.

[Interviewee/Expert]

How had you devised this technique yourself, Michelle?

[Patty]

It just came about in the atmosphere of Dr. Pastor saying to me, just go where you have to go. I'll be there with you.

[Tracy]

The Dr. Pastor's not even regressing her. She's laying on the couch regressing herself. And then he's guiding her through these memories. This does not feel like how it goes.

[Patty]

No. And, you know, he's like, leading her to these memories and encouraging her wherever they take her. And I'm like, yeah, I'm sure, like, good or bad, he's gonna be there. And I'm like, bad. Right. Fingers cross. Like, that's where the money is, Doc.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Patty]

Like, I think he's, like, really interested in the worst thing she can come.

[Tracy]

Up with for sure. And we hear. So this is one of the reasons why I think this documentary stuck with me, because we hear so much of the audio of these sets. She's sobbing, she's crying, she's begging for help. It's really awful. Yeah.

[Patty]

And it's interesting because they will do a lot of press about this book that comes from these audio tapes. And she's always very calm and not hysterical on television.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

She's very. I mean, hysterical hysterical in this audio, but not on camera.

[Tracy]

Yeah. It's almost like she's a totally different person in those sessions.

[Patty]

I noticed.

[Additional Interviewee]

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[Tracy]

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[Patty]

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[Tracy]

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[Tracy]

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[Patty]

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[Tracy]

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[Patty]

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[Tracy]

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[Patty]

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[Tracy]

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[Patty]

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[Tracy]

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[Patty]

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[Tracy]

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[Patty]

That goes without saying.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first thing she remembers, this is like the big first memory she has. She sees people gathered in a room doing dances she doesn't understand. The walls are draped in black. There's candles. Her mother was present, but not in the ritual. And her role seemed to be to give Michelle to this group. Now, Michelle in this memory is five years old, Right.

[Patty]

And, yeah, her mother, like, gave Michelle to the group. They were dedicated to doing a lot of seriously frightening kind of things. And they sacrifice animals and they used fetuses of babies in their ceremonies.

[Tracy]

They're sacrificing fetuses. They're sacrificing animals in this memory. And her mother is there being like, take my daughter.

[Patty]

Yeah. Like, this is all great.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

So let's just like, pause there for a moment.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And like The Michelle and Dr. Pazder story.

[Church of Satan Representative]

Yes.

[Patty]

Like you were saying, they worked very intensely for four years. And he says there's a quote from him that says there was no evidence of any of these experiences present in their very intense work together previously, like, for four years. Four years. And then they stopped therapy. And then when Michelle came back, like, that's when this started. Which is also, I think, just a little interesting to know.

[Tracy]

Yeah. And like, he's saying it's very hard to know where these stories are coming from. You know, we're back to Michelle's childhood in 1954, and this is where we learn a little bit more about Victoria. 70,000 people, safe and quiet. We learn. Now, Cheryl, the youngest of three sisters is here. She's Michelle's sister.

[Patty]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

She says Tertia was the oldest. Michelle is the middle child, then me. She's.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Tertia was pretty. Michelle was kind of funny to Honey. I was gorgeous.

[Tracy]

And I was gorgeous.

[Patty]

Yeah. She's like, no, no, no, I'm kidding.

[Tracy]

She was giving such blanche energy. Like, her sisters wouldn't play with her because she was so pretty.

[Patty]

I appreciate that. Cheryl is here to have, like a little bit of left hand.

[Tracy]

We need it. Because here's the gag as the kids say Michelle is alive. I kept waiting to find out that Michelle had died. No, Michelle is alive and just deciding not to participate in this.

[Patty]

Yes.

[Tracy]

She literally raises hell and then runs for the hills.

[Patty]

110 million zillion percent. So her childhood. You know, Cheryl says she spells it C H A R Y L. I know.

[Tracy]

And I was like, I'm just gonna say Cheryl. Cheryl. I mean, Tertia is a great name. Like, yes, Cheryl. I don't know, maybe it's Canadian.

[Patty]

It must be.

[Tracy]

Maybe you can only have these names if you're Canadian.

[Patty]

I think that's true.

[Tracy]

It's legal. It's against the law.

[Patty]

If we're going to be like spewing bullshit that is 100% accurate to be on theme with this documentary. Just things that aren't real.

[Tracy]

You get on the boat, you go across the canal, you're in Victoria, you have these names in Canada, and then.

[Patty]

You'Re like, oh, is that my Canadian name?

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patty]

So Michelle's childhood, their mother did not have an easy life.

[Interviewee/Expert]

We're told my mom, she didn't have an easy life raising three girls on her own. I mean, dad was in and out. You know, he was an alcoholic and he had a gambling problem. So when you have a husband that's an alcoholic, you don't have friends. You just don't. So mom spent a very lonely life.

[Tracy]

An alcoholic with a gambling problem, violent. I know, I know.

[Patty]

So their mother was lonely, obviously struggled a lot. She had a ton on her plate with these three kids.

[Tracy]

And they moved. Like their. Their childhood was very tumultuous. They moved nine times in the course of their childhood.

[Patty]

Nine, ten years.

[Tracy]

Like, that's crazy. Before my parents got divorced, I think we moved four times in like five years or something. And that is hard.

[Patty]

And in this case, it always happened around a holiday. The dad would get violent, the cops would come and the girls would have to move. And it's just so destabilizing for the kids to like, never have Never feel safe, never have a home base, Always around the holiday. Like the trauma that, that.

[Tracy]

What is it about the holiday? Do you think the dad would just like get ha on Easter literally as one of the holidays they mentioned?

[Patty]

I mean just in our experience, like ruining what's supposed to be a nice time or just pressure or I don't know, whatever.

[Tracy]

God, these people are amazing.

[Patty]

Just ridiculous.

[Tracy]

You're literally pushing your daughter into Satan's arms. Sir.

[Patty]

Well, this is where I start having all these questions because we get this audio from Michelle. She's being tortured by this cult and her mother was there sporadically. And I'm like, where? Right, tell me exactly where. Your house in the woods. Like, and when. Where weren't you in school? Like, was no one noticing that you weren't going to school? Where are your sisters when this is happening?

[Tracy]

I think that we forget and I'm saying we like I'm thinking of this in real time how easy it is to like say things and then believe your own bullshit. In the pre Internet age, when a.

[Patty]

Guy isn't asking her questions, he's leading her.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

The natural question would be like, where was this happening?

[Tracy]

Right.

[Patty]

Where were your sisters? Where is anyone else from this cult?

[Tracy]

Yeah, I mean we are going to learn later what a financial. Like this book was meant to be an industry, you know, and I think that this guy had that in his mind from the get go and jokes on us.

[Patty]

It bec industry only it's just suffering and wrongful convictions.

[Tracy]

But every time that they would put away another preschool teacher, I bet they sold another 5,000 copies of the book, you know what I mean? So Chidi is here.

[Patty]

So she's Michelle's friend. I have some concerns about Chidi.

[Tracy]

Oh, but poor Chidi is just like a person who believes everything that's right in front of her.

[Patty]

Well, Chidi, I have like a fucking bridge to sell you.

[Tracy]

I know, over the canal to get to Victoria.

[Patty]

Like, oh my God.

[Tracy]

Well, she says because she worked for pastor and she's saying Larry liked the limelight.

[Church of Satan Representative]

You know, everybody liked him and he liked being liked and Michelle wasn't like that. Michelle is like a puritan, you know, no off color jokes and not really any swearing and no alcohol.

[Tracy]

No jokes, no swearing, no alcohol. Can. Michelle can't. I know. Jesus Christ. But Chidi worked for him because she really liked to type.

[Patty]

Can I tell you something?

[Tracy]

I like to type too.

[Patty]

Getting in a typing groove.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

There is nothing like it. And over the years of I was always like decent just because I, like, always grew up.

[Tracy]

Well, right now, we're probably 9,000 words a minute.

[Patty]

Well, that's what I mean, doing this for all these years, like, I'm such a great typer. Typist.

[Tracy]

Typist.

[Patty]

And it's not the official way. Like, if I went to, like, typing school, I probably would do it wrong.

[Tracy]

You don't do, like, the keyboarding way.

[Patty]

I know I do, but, like, I'm sure it's just my own muscle memory.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Is that, like, the official typing way? I don't know. Regardless, the point is, when you get in a typing.

[Tracy]

I know.

[Patty]

It feels so good. And remember that time I told you where I was typing so fast, the keyboard flew? A key. Little key, like, flew.

[Tracy]

They're going to fly.

[Patty]

And I was like, oh, my God, I don't have time to even get it.

[Tracy]

I know, I know. I get into such a good typing groove that when I start in the morning and it's not there yet, I get really annoyed.

[Interviewee/Expert]

It is.

[Patty]

But, like, the muscle, it's all. It's kind of fascinating to me, like, how your. The body can do that. The muscle memory. It's like, you know, like, we don't think about walking. We just know.

[Tracy]

Typing is crazy because you literally have to know where all the letters are. Like, and, like, your brain. Your brain just know. Like, it's. I don't even envision the keyboard. Like, I just know exactly where it goes.

[Patty]

I couldn't tell you.

[Tracy]

I know.

[Patty]

I know where the A, in, S.

[Tracy]

A, S, D, F, A, S, D, F, J, K, L, semi. Yeah.

[Patty]

If you asked me where J is, I'd be like, oh, well, I could.

[Tracy]

Do it with, like, the. But I would need to.

[Patty]

I'd be like, it's right there. To try to type this thing. It's kind of wild. So I get it. I got it. I was like, chidi, I understand. Like, just, like, kind of mindless typing. Because what she does is transcribes everything that he records.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

So it's a kind of a perfect gig for people like us.

[Tracy]

Yeah, truly. And we learn, like, this is the beginning of how this book gets made, because what's happening is it's. The sessions are on reel to reel. They're transferred to cassette tape where Chidi is transcribing them. And then Pastor the doctor is taking the transcriptions of these sessions and writing his own notes around them. And that is what the book is going to become.

[Patty]

Now. She transcribed. Chidi transcribed every single word, 14 months worth of these audio tapes. And she says, I listened to all.

[Church of Satan Representative]

The tapes and I believe that something happened to Michelle. There isn't much doubt in my mind something definitely happened to her. And I do believe it was a group of Satanists.

[Patty]

And it was definitely a group of Satanists. No, it's Piper, No, Piper. No, Piper.

[Additional Interviewee]

No.

[Tracy]

It is that thing where I think when you listener see the destruction that this book has done in the world and you learn that you've contributed to that, you must make yourself believe that it was real.

[Patty]

I must do.

[Tracy]

I don't. No. My thing is, I wish Michelle were here to take accountability 100%. Like, she's here not really taking any accountability, just saying she believes it hook, line, and sinker.

[Patty]

But, like, I would understand you, Chidi, if you told me this thing. Like, I was told, like, this was my friend and this. This doctor I admired. And I thought, you know, like, in the moment, how could I not? I was supporting my friend, and she.

[Tracy]

Didn'T know that it was going to become a book. She's literally transcribing the session.

[Patty]

You got, like, 10 outs here, and you're not taking.

[Interviewee/Expert]

You know what I mean?

[Tracy]

Like, no, I'm with you.

[Patty]

I would be able to sympathize and be like, holy shit. Like, oh, my God.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

No, she's not here for that.

[Tracy]

So Sarah Marshall is telling us that, like, as these therapy sessions go on, Michelle is learning that her mom was, in fact, a Satanist. That's why she gave Michelle to these people. And she's saying that this book Michelle remembers just devolves into, like, endless passages of children being mercilessly tortured.

[Patty]

Right.

[Tracy]

That's what this book is.

[Patty]

And Michelle was one of them. In these memories, like, you know, they're spending also, like, Michelle and this doctor Larry are spending a bit to six hours together per session. That's just objectively too long for any kind of session.

[Tracy]

No question.

[Patty]

It's just too long.

[Tracy]

Have I been in the middle of a therapy session? I've been like, can we do a double? And Jeff is like, absolutely sure. But, like, that's less than two hours.

[Patty]

Six hours.

[Tracy]

Maybe two times into the five years I've been seeing this guy saying, yeah.

[Patty]

Six hours of this.

[Tracy]

No. Right.

[Patty]

Like, what we're hearing too much.

[Tracy]

Well, because we'll learn later. Like, she's obsessed with him. Well, but I do think that Michelle doesn't under. Necessarily understand what's happening.

[Patty]

Like, she's being groomed.

[Tracy]

She's. Thank you. That's exactly the right word. Yeah, she's being groomed.

[Patty]

Well, they're obsessed with this work. But they're also both married.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

And Mary Lynn is Dr. Larry's wife. She clocked this shit from a mile away. And she's here to tell us about it.

[Tracy]

I love her. Cheryl was married to this guy named Doug. By all accounts, he was like, absolutely wonderful.

[Patty]

And Cheryl, the sister is like.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Cheryl had a huge imagination. She always created things. She was very creative. So she had made her wedding dress and she'd made her husband's suit. But the wedding. I remember Larry coming in and I thought it was odd that a psychiatrist would show up at a wedding of a patient. But there must have been a connection between Michelle and him.

[Patty]

It was super weird that my sister's psychiatrist was at her wedding. That feels like a boundaryless situation. But, you know, here we are.

[Tracy]

I mean, I feel like that's like, just ethically, like you should be. What's the equivalent of being disbarred for that?

[Patty]

Like, you get your license ripped off.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Patty]

But this is also where Cheryl, the sister, dropped that. Michelle had a big imagination. She's always, quote, making things up. She's very creative.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Which not all creative people saying.

[Tracy]

But this one in particular girl, Remy, is back. Look, it's a new year. It's time to start taking your health seriously. And part of that means protecting your teeth while you sleep. You sleep chewers.

[Patty]

I know. That's the thing. Like when you're clenching your teeth or grinding your teeth, you don't know you're doing it.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And so you need something to help protect your teeth.

[Tracy]

Listen, Remy's custom night guards are clinically tested and FDA cleared to prevent teeth grinding, reduce jaw tension and facial muscle strain, and improve sleep quality.

[Patty]

You know how much we care about sleep quality. I'm not even kidding.

[Tracy]

It's literally all I get. It's sleep quality. Than Daisy.

[Patty]

Like, seriously.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And with Remy, you get the same professional quality and comfort as a night guard from the dentist. But remy costs you 80% less and is much more convenient than having to go to the dentist.

[Tracy]

Right, because here's how it works. And Steve did this, and he was obsessed with it because he sleeps with a night guard every single night. You receive your impression kit straight from your door. You follow Remy's step by step instructions to get your perfect impression. Remy crafts and ships your custom fit night guard. And you get your night guard back and start protecting your teeth. So, like, you do the impression at home, you don't have to go to the dentist office anymore. Yeah. You send out the impression, they send it right back to you. And Steve was like, and this might be gimmicky. No.

[Patty]

Did he notice it right away?

[Tracy]

Right away. He loves it. He's never gone back. It's been a couple years now.

[Patty]

This is what we're saying.

[Tracy]

So, fam, start the new year, right? And use code TCO to get 50% off your purchase of a new night guard.

[Patty]

That's 50% off at shop r e m I.com/tco with code TCO.

[Tracy]

Thank you, Remy, for sponsoring this episode.

[Patty]

And everyone's good night's sleep.

[Tracy]

Truly.

[Patty]

And like, calm teeth.

[Tracy]

Teeth chewers.

[Patty]

I mean, come on. They don't mean it.

[Tracy]

They don't even know they're not doing it on purpose.

[Patty]

They don't know.

[Tracy]

Mary Lynn, who's the. Who's pastor's ex wife, she gives us their backstory. They met when she was 13 and he was 17. Woof, woof. Mary Lynn and Larry, the doctor, like, they stay together. Like, they meet at that with that age difference, but they end up getting married when he graduates. When he graduates from medical school, she graduates from nursing school, they get married. And everyone says, this guy's kind of great. Like, he's fun, happy, cheerful, charming.

[Church of Satan Representative]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Her mother says he could charm the birds right out of the trees. He collected friends like a dog collected fleas. And I'm like, is that a compliment?

[Tracy]

That's how the devil talks, only in rhyme. It's. It's probably a poem straight from the devil.

[Patty]

I understand. So Maryland's mom is the devil.

[Tracy]

Could be mother in law. I. But Teresa, their daughter is here. I love her. And she's saying, like, her dad was super religious. Now this is very important. She says the Catholic Church was the only church. Teresa was daddy's little girl. They were really close. And she really looked up to him because he was a psychiatrist. And that was like something to aspire to be.

[Patty]

Let's go to Nigeria in 1964.

[Tracy]

I don't really want to.

[Patty]

Well, because Dr. Larry is there. He's filming this culture he knows nothing about.

[Tracy]

It's horrible.

[Patty]

And because he doesn't understand it, he decides to demonize it, which, by the way, is satanic panic in a nutshell.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Patty]

And the racism here cannot be ignored.

[Tracy]

And by the way, the nuns there clocked him. They're like, you're crazy. Get out of here.

[Patty]

He's here to, like, point and demonize the non white people in Nigeria for, like, being weird and just literally practicing their culture and their own religion. That he just doesn't get.

[Tracy]

He was also, like, an early adopter of, like, all of the video cameras. And so he videotaped all of this.

[Patty]

Yeah, it's complete. It's just, like, going to see people, quote, in their natural habitat and because he didn't understand what it was, and it was not what the Catholic Church was doing.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Patty]

They were evil. He goes, they are in a possession state. They're really not. They're just doing their own religious practices and showing their culture.

[Tracy]

But what this really tells us is that this guy is primed to, like, think about cults. Think about anything that is, like, antithetical to what he believes or sees or knows is cultish and scary.

[Patty]

Right.

[Tracy]

Now we learn that the devil speak. Coming out through Michelle is so sophisticated. They need a priest.

[Patty]

Yeah, well, he comes out of the fire. He speaks in rhymes.

[Tracy]

He comes out of the fire. He speaks in rhymes. Once again, we're gonna learn that Mother Mary only speaks French in a minute. I've got a lot to say about that. But this priest that they enlist, his.

[Patty]

Name is Father Guy, and he knew Dr. Larry. This isn't just like, who's the best at this? Let me find them. It's like, here's my friend who's in.

[Tracy]

And like, it cuts back to Michelle talking about how she was being tortured and brutalized.

[Patty]

And out of that, a woman came and stood beside me and took a hold of my hand, identified herself as Ma Mer.

[Tracy]

Ma Mer?

[Patty]

Ma Mer.

[Tracy]

The Virgin Mary.

[Church of Satan Representative]

That's right, Mother Mary, they referred to her as Mamare, visited Michelle and talked to her in French.

[Patty]

The Virgin Mary appeared as Michelle was, quote, literally being frightened to death.

[Tracy]

Ma Mer, they called her.

[Patty]

White light came over her, and she's telling Michelle what to do in front. Which is weird because Michelle doesn't speak.

[Tracy]

French, except for in this instance, she does. She's like. I spoke back to her in Rhett. Here's my question. Mary was not French.

[Church of Satan Representative]

No.

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Patty]

But it's, like, so unbelievable that that's what they're banking on.

[Tracy]

Like, only in French.

[Patty]

Can we please talk about Bishop Remy Deroux? And I cannot believe this is not a drag queen. Remy Deroux. Can someone please tell me there's some deep cut drag performer.

[Tracy]

Totally.

[Patty]

Whose name, like, welcome to the stage, Remy Derue.

[Tracy]

Remy Derue. Sashay away, bitch.

[Patty]

Because I need some kind of performer of the stage to go by the name Remy Dew as a total fucking dig and dragon.

[Tracy]

I want Remy Darou to read you that Natalie Cole thing that Happened all those years ago. That was, like, the most famous lip sync for your life. Yes. Here's my favorite thing about Remy De Roux, though, is that he decides they can't.

[Patty]

How is that not a joke?

[Tracy]

I know, I know, I know.

[Patty]

Remy Derue.

[Tracy]

I know. Who do you think Remy Drew would have done in the Snatch Game?

[Patty]

If Remy. Is Remy De Roux in on the joke?

[Tracy]

Yeah. Let's say yes, then.

[Patty]

Like, Satan.

[Tracy]

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes.

[Patty]

Sexy, slutty Satan talks like this.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Patty]

Or just, like, talks like RuPaul.

[Tracy]

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Totally. Oh, that's good. Remy Giroux does Satan and Snatches. You're just like, not that jinx monsoon up in here.

[Patty]

Right? Or the vibe would be like, if I were Remy Giroux, I'd just be, like, a total goth queen.

[Tracy]

Like, I want to see Remy Drew do one of those challenges that they used to do in the early seasons where, like, on day one, they put them in full glam and then do the wind machine to blow all. And then they put. They throw them into a pool. That would be great. You know Remy Drew. Well, the actual Remy Drew. He decides.

[Church of Satan Representative]

Bishop Remy Derues decided that her memories had enough import that they needed to go to Rome and tell the Pope this, and so they did.

[Tracy]

He decides they've got to go see the Pope.

[Patty]

We gotta tell the Pope about this now.

[Tracy]

But my favorite part about this is the priest who connected the Bishop with Michelle and Larry doesn't get to go also.

[Patty]

Is that all it takes? We have zero proof of it.

[Tracy]

I know.

[Patty]

We have zero proof.

[Tracy]

Give us stigmata or something. How are you falling for this? I mean, remember that lady on the Unsolved Mysteries that we covered that was literally crying diamonds. Give me a little of that. It's all about the show biz.

[Patty]

Remember the crying diamond?

[Tracy]

Crying the diamond. She was sweating gold.

[Patty]

Yeah. She got gold foil and glued it to ourselves.

[Tracy]

Remy Derue would never like Remy. Never. That's the name the House of Deru. Are you on?

[Patty]

I stopped. I was like, wait, what? I went back. I was like, hold on a second. Is that really this Bishop's name?

[Tracy]

When Rupert Paul retires, it's gonna be de RuPaul's Drag Race. She's gonna take over. We did it.

[Patty]

We need it. And you're what? Please take the name. Take the inspo. Some performer out there. Please do it. Or some, like, hot goth stripper. Please, God. Welcome to the stage Remy Derue.

[Tracy]

I know.

[Patty]

Oh, my God. So anyway, it's October 1980, the book comes out and it's the biggest fucking thing ever.

[Tracy]

And like Cheryl, Michelle's sister is shocked because she's saying like they were famous everywhere they went, limousines, the best din and dining people all over the world.

[Patty]

But most of all, attention and money. But the most valuable of all. Yeah, Dr. Larry is getting the accolades now we learned.

[Interviewee/Expert]

I know they got 245,000 US advance for the book.

[Church of Satan Representative]

And I know it was translated into a bunch of languages other than just English. So I know the book must have sold a lot of copies.

[Tracy]

They get a $245,000 advance for their book. That's $930,000 in today's money. As a person who wrote that is not what publishing is like today.

[Patty]

No, no. And like so then Michelle goes on that show To Tell the Truth, which was a game show back in the day that Frank Abagnale was on. No, that's how Catch Me if you can opens no movie Catch Me if youf can starts with like a recreation of the show To Tell the Truth where it's like, oh, I was a. I like pretended to be a lawyer and a pilot. And I like sign because fam.

[Tracy]

If you don't know what this is, it's like three people standing up there and they. The narrative story is saying that like this is the story of one of these people. And then I guess they ask them questions to figure out who's the real.

[Patty]

The real Prince Julian Pensavoli.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so number one, if you like, this is part of the PR campaign for the book. Like this book is about how you were tortured at 5 years old. At 5 years old by the fucking devil. Even Mother Mary couldn't say you and.

[Patty]

The mother Popola Le Roux or whatever.

[Tracy]

Couldn'T save you either.

[Patty]

You know, like your mother gave you to the cult for the torture.

[Tracy]

But go on the game show.

[Patty]

I looked up some other episodes of this cause I was like, this feels heavy.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

The youngest professional clip clown Gin rummy champion.

[Tracy]

Stop it.

[Patty]

Gift wrap specialist. Like, is that my mother?

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patty]

Be expert. So this is the kind of vibe that people are expecting when they tune into to tell the truth.

[Tracy]

Not 5 year old Satana called Torture Survivor.

[Patty]

That's what is happening here.

[Tracy]

My God, the expert. So Cheryl, the sister is explaining she's having surgery the day that Michelle is on the show. She comes out of surgery, sees Michelle on the tv, thinks she's hallucinating. Cheryl seems like a hoot.

[Patty]

Yeah, she does. She's over it. Cheryl is someone who's been through it. She's done. She's done the work. She's ready to talk. She could talk about it. She can make jokes. She's.

[Tracy]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Patty]

Charles Ennis is here.

[Law Enforcement Official]

The book came out in 1980, and I heard about it almost immediately because I was the first Wiccan priest in law enforcement.

[Patty]

He is the first Wiccan priest in law enforcement. Fuck.

[Additional Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

I think that is amazing. However, I wonder how that went down. To be the first male witch in law enforcement.

[Patty]

Not.

[Tracy]

How was that at the academy, do you think? You know what I mean?

[Patty]

I mean, it would be hard enough for a woman to do it, so God bless.

[Tracy]

Are you a wicked. I prefer male witches. Like, it's that thing where, like, with the one that we just covered murder in Monaco, where, like, every time they referred to the nurse, they had referred to him as the male nurse because, like, we are. Yeah. And his. And his male nurse, like, we.

[Patty]

The worst Green Beret on the planet.

[Tracy]

The worst. Probably was never a Green Beret. But, like, I just was thinking, Charles Ennis, that's a very cool lower third. But I was like, that means male witch, which I love. I'm so into it.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

But I bet that wasn't. I bet that that didn't go great all the time.

[Patty]

Well, I wonder how honest he was about it.

[Tracy]

Very good question.

[Patty]

Just saying.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patty]

But he's here to tell us how dangerous the book was.

[Tracy]

He's a male witch.

[Patty]

So popular. Like.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And, like, now these two are suddenly out of nowhere. The authorities on Satan, the cults, torture, abuse, recovered memories. They are suddenly experts on it just because they say they are.

[Tracy]

And also they are now looked to by the FBI and law enforcement to be able to identify kids and adults who've actually suffered this.

[Patty]

We are way past trying to get proof of this. Yes, that ship has sailed. Now, these two people are experts to live in fear because your kids are going to get eaten and sacrificed and.

[Tracy]

Or stolen and kidnapped. At one point, we get a statistic that there are 3 million kids born in the United States. Every year, 2 million of them are missing.

[Patty]

Like.

[Tracy]

Like. Because they've all been stolen by the Satanists.

[Patty]

Oh, my God. They did a publicity tour for two years. Every show, every camera, every microphone. Then it just keeps getting worse.

[Interviewee/Expert]

In 1981, there was an American Psychiatric association annual meeting, and pastor talked about the content of Michelle Remembers. And he started generalizing that there was this phenomenon, you know, beyond that particular story, that there was A phenomenon called satanic ritual abuse.

[Patty]

Now they're the keynote speakers at psychiatric conventions.

[Tracy]

And when we see the B roll of this, it's social workers. It's all of these people. Like, look, having been through the foster care system, I can tell you how important the role of the social worker is. If the social worker comes to your home, moment is like, this kid has been hit or bit or whatever. They will take that kid that day.

[Patty]

In that moment, they're contaminating this very real profession.

[Tracy]

Yes. And these social workers are sitting there taking notes as if any of this is fucking real and like to see.

[Patty]

It happen in real time, almost like one thing after another. Because now it's suddenly been discovered that there's a phenomenon of satanic ritual abuse.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

It is bullshit. It's an insane conspiracy theory presented as fact that children are being stolen and abused and scientific sacrificed all in the name of evil. Like a very, very, very specific evil.

[Tracy]

Girl. ZipRecruiter is back. Look, sometimes hiring people can be like, dating. You know, like, you go out like on a. On a date and you're like, what are your deal breakers? What are you looking for? Look, the same goes when you're hiring. You definitely want to address key questions first to see if someone could be right for your role.

[Patty]

And that's why you need Zip Recruiter.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

When you post your job, Zip Recruiter suggests screening questions to help you hone in on top candidates faster.

[Tracy]

And today, fam, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/tco.

[Patty]

So not only do they recommend the screening question so you can get like, the highest quality applicants.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

They also show who's been recently active. So you might, like, fall in love with a candidate and be like, oh. But then you realize, oh, they haven't been active, so too late.

[Tracy]

Ziprecruiters also got this matching technology which immediately finds qualified candidates that check all your boxes. Imagine if that existed in dating as well.

[Patty]

Can you believe it?

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Patty]

Yeah. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2, obviously.

[Tracy]

Yeah, exactly, fam. Ask key questions and hire faster with Zip Recruiter.

[Patty]

Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

[Tracy]

Try it for [e-mail] TCO that's ziprecruiter.com TCO meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

[Patty]

I see what you're doing.

[Tracy]

Love is in the air. I see you Girl, ritual is back. Look, we love the science, we love the ritual. And look, Ritual's team of scientists poured over thousands of studies to identify the common gaps between nutrient needs and what people are actually consuming across different life stages.

[Patty]

Yeah. And there are essential for women 18/ multi contains 9 key nutrients, 2 delayed release capsules designed for optimal absorption per day. So like there's a good chance you're not getting everything from your diet and it's okay.

[Tracy]

Oh yeah, that's what we're here for.

[Patty]

That's what I'm saying.

[Tracy]

They also conducted a university led clinical trial for their essential for women 18 plus multivitamin to assess its efficacy. And guess what the results were?

[Additional Interviewee]

Girl.

[Tracy]

It increased vitamin D levels by 43%, Omega 3 DHA levels by 41% in just 12 weeks.

[Patty]

And it's third party tested for heavy metals. And it's clean label project certified. So you know that you can trust what your putting in your body. If I'm putting in two delicious minty fresh.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Pills that are easy on my stomach, I also want to know what's in them.

[Tracy]

Honestly, you've been taking them for forever. It's been a thing that's worked really well. We love it. And so fam instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. I like that.

[Patty]

Yeah. Save 25 on your first month at.

[Tracy]

Ritual.Com TCO that's ritual.com TCO for 25% off your first month.

[Patty]

There you go.

[Tracy]

Blanche Barton is here from the Church of Satan. She says we call these people cops for Christ. And they, she's the one who says like they all had their own agenda. So like now it starts with Larry and Michelle being the experts but then anybody can just say that they're an expert and now they can lead the seminar. And what we're also told too is that if you go and take one of these seminars you get an actual certification. Like it actually like you can put that in your email signature now. Like it actually like bolsters your career to take this bullshit seminar and say that I'm now an expert in whatever it's called, the, what is it called?

[Patty]

Satanic Ritual abuse.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

So we, we see that very famous like law enforcement guide to Satanic Cults video. Amy Berg used it in west of Memphis. If you really want to see this at work, watch. West Memphis.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

For a great many reasons. But one of them is that like, oh, these like experts with their certificates are on the stand and they're bullshit.

[Tracy]

What is it that Damien used to always say that like if I could levitate, I would have levitated the fuck out of Arkansas. Yes. You know? Yeah.

[Patty]

Like if I could do it, I would have done it. I would have used it for good.

[Tracy]

I would have eaten your kids and gotten the hell out of here with my levitating powers.

[Patty]

But people were like, but they're eating kids, right?

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

They're eating the dogs, they're eating the cat. Like this is all fudgeing the same thing. It's the same history repeats its.

[Tracy]

Do you know what I was thinking about a little bit just as a parent watching this is that like parents are so scared. Parents are so. Now this does not excuse anything. It doesn't excuse anything, but parents just live in constant fear that they're not doing enough. That their kids are. That they're putting their kids in harm's way. You can't put them in school anymore, you can't put them in daycare. And it's like the thing about this satanic ritual abuse bullshit is that it's the confirmation parents want, right? To say that. Like yep, it's I, that's right. Like I. You know what I'm saying something to.

[Patty]

Put your anxiety on y instead of this like fear of the unknown. It's like this is something you can point to and it's like the cops are being taught how to quote spot Satan.

[Tracy]

I do lectures throughout the country. In fact I was in Canada, did.

[Law Enforcement Official]

A presentation for about 150 multi agency personnel up there.

[Patty]

There is some fucking idiot showing off a Ouija board. That is a board game made by a company called Hasbro that makes every other board game.

[Tracy]

Have we talked about this already? The TikTok about the dad and like the caption is like my, my daughter has a bu of friends over and they're playing the Ouija board in the living room and he goes down to the basement and turns off the power and it's so good again.

[Patty]

It's just a prank cuz it didn't happen.

[Tracy]

I know it's important. It would be great if we could figure out how to communicate with the dead though.

[Patty]

Sure.

[Tracy]

We should get on that.

[Patty]

I think people can.

[Tracy]

Yeah. Remember the lady who did and was like the bodies in the basement under the dartboard or whatever. And it was. She was right.

[Patty]

The secrets rebury.

[Tracy]

She's the one.

[Patty]

I know.

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Patty]

She does weddings now.

[Tracy]

She does weddings?

[Patty]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

Really?

[Patty]

She does like all kinds of weddings. Look at her website. Go, go look her up. She's. She's out there. Oh and she's out. She's out there.

[Tracy]

She's out there.

[Patty]

And just like a quick reminder that Satanists don't believe. Like from their website.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

They don't worship or believe in Satan. That's like the first sentence.

[Tracy]

I mean I will say 100%. It was like when this started it was a little bit of shock value. Like they are a little bit to blame for the Satan thing because it's like you used his name to like make a statement and now here we.

[Patty]

Are to sort of like take it back. I think because they say like our position is to be self centered.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

As much.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

With ourselves being the most important person of our subjective universe. So sometimes people say we just worship ourselves. Like they don't, like they're, they say Satan to us is a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism and it serves as an external metaphorical projection. Blah blah blah. So they are using it to be like hahaha.

[Tracy]

Right.

[Patty]

But like I mean like the Church.

[Tracy]

Of Satan is out there like like fighting for gay rights. Like you know what I mean? Like they're all about the individual. They're all about the rights of the individual.

[Patty]

And the scary thing about this is that even though this conspiracy theory is bullshit and it's all fake, there was real panic happening. Like the panic was real.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

And that's the problem.

[Tracy]

Well so okay, we're in. Victoria 1982.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Michelle and Larry were always talking all the time. Victoria in the church explaining Satanic cults. And that's when someone said that the child was going to be stolen from the hospital and it caused major havoc.

[Additional Interviewee]

It was in the paper that Satanists were going to take a bid from the nursery. People were really alarmed. They were really upset.

[Tracy]

Michelle announces to the world that Satanists are going to start stealing babies from hospitals. Like what the fuck? And here's my question is do you think that at any point she believed it? Because I think that is possible.

[Patty]

Yes I do.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

I think this all is because of her miscarriage. I think she needed to work through that in a way that, that she didn't.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And so if you really like everything goes back to babies and babies being harmed and something horrible happening to a baby. And I think that is her way of like working through for lack of a better term cause she didn't work through her miscarriage. I think that's why we're here.

[Tracy]

I think one of the.

[Patty]

And I think that's tragic.

[Tracy]

It's horrible. One of the most believable moments in this entire thing is in the very last thing we hear at the end of the documentary. She's saying, I don't know what is real. I don't know what to believe. I don't know what is real anymore. Because this doctor fucked with her mind. Yeah.

[Patty]

I think there's obviously no expert, but I think there could be some kind of, like, psychosis here. And then being led through these, like, memories, these nightmares.

[Tracy]

She had an ulterior motive. Which we'll get to soon.

[Patty]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Tracy]

But, like, now the world is on fire thinking that babies are gonna be stolen by Satanists. And this is where we meet Ken Lanning, FBI special. I love this guy.

[Patty]

Ken's like, I super weird. I've been with the FBI since 1970. And then literally, all of a sudden, like, one day.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

There were like, the only case that came across his desk was like, a satanic cult. And he's like, it really came out of nowhere. Thanks to the bar.

[Tracy]

He goes, I was a regular FBI agent for 10 years. And then this. Yeah.

[Patty]

And then he became, like, the expert on Satanism, the occult, cults, the whole package. And he's like, what? Here's what's weird.

[Consulting Expert]

As I began to respond to these cases, I started out with an open mind. And I kind of thought that this had to be going on because. Because why would these people be saying it if it didn't happen? Pretty soon, somebody mentions Dr. Posner in the book Michelle remembers. So I start to hear them getting involved. And the number of cases that I were consulting on in this area just began to grow.

[Tracy]

And it all comes from Michelle's book.

[Patty]

Yeah. And he's like, all right, let me investigate this with an open mind and see what's actually going on here.

[Tracy]

And I will say, like, he says that he goes into this work with an open mind. And he, like, sees the book and he's like, well, it was co. Written by a doctor, so it's gotta be kind of legit, right? And then we learn. Now, we covered this in a whole other episode, but we learn about the McMartin preschool case.

[Patty]

It's episode 280 from 2023.

[Tracy]

And we meet Elizabeth Loftus. She's a memory specialist. I love that because memory is crazy.

[Patty]

Yeah. So this is the case where this horrible woman, Key McFarlane, was convincing kids that they were abused, sexually abused, psychologically abused, tortured, then forced to watch animal torture. There were more than 300 counts against these people who ran the daycare.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

And Dr. Key was playing Fast and loose with the kids. The fucking irony ye saying like, well your friend said this happened to you.

[Tracy]

So I mean it's so fucked up the idea like they're implanting like memories of these in these little kids minds of themselves being sodomized, raped, watching babies being murdered. Like this is shit these kids are gonna live with for the rest of their life believing happened to them.

[Patty]

What I don't understand is why these adults want the kids to be abused. Like, why does she want the answer to be yes so badly?

[Tracy]

Right?

[Patty]

Yeah, that is bizarre. That is next level to me.

[Tracy]

To me there's a little bit of like, yes, the world is as bad as we thought, you know what I mean? But it's. I don't know, I mean it doesn't make any sense except it's gotta make sense to somebody.

[Patty]

Like we go into it more in the episode and in the documentary that we covered. So check it out. But like the way she's like, no, but come on, you were raped, right? And it's like, why would you want this little child like they want it so badly?

[Tracy]

Here's my question.

[Law Enforcement Official]

We learned here that Children's Institute International, which was a group that was involved in trying to get disclosures from children from the McMartin Daycare case, decided to bring down Lawrence and Michelle as consultants to assist in the process. So they were directly involved in getting these disclosures and recovering memories.

[Tracy]

They literally bring Michelle in to talk to the kids to confirm that what they've been told happened to them. Happened. Yeah, she's literally there to make it worse. This is just another example of Michelle being let loose on these kids who are three to five years old. These are preschoolers. And they're saying to Michelle like, well, I was told that this thing happened and now I kind of remember it. Michelle's like, yep, that's exactly what happened to me.

[Patty]

Let's go there, let's do that instead of going the other direction. And by the way, all the charges were dropped. And Kay McFarlane, this fucking idiot was exposed as a manipulator and she never took any ownership of it, just to be clear. But the damage is done. It doesn't matter.

[Tracy]

It doesn't matter. Do you know what does matter? We're going to take a hard left turn here.

[Patty]

Where are we going?

[Tracy]

We're going to a news broadcast where there is an anchor wearing the widest shoulder padded blouse. I have, I sent a text picture of it to you this morning. This woman is petite. She's like your size. Her Shoulders are, like, out to here.

[Patty]

Shoulder pads were all the rage for quite some time now.

[Tracy]

I can deal with shoulder pads. I can handle shoulder this. She looks like a linebacker.

[Patty]

She looks like David Burn. Like that big David Byrne scene, literally.

[Tracy]

Or like, she looks like she's about to, like, run into that thing that they make the high school boys and the football team run into to, like, charge it down the field when they're practicing. Oh. Shoulders are like. If she had to get through one of those metal detectors at tsa, she'd have to go sideways.

[Patty]

Oh, my God.

[Tracy]

It's wild. I. It took my breath away. Every single. Now if she loves how she looks, I'm thrilled for her.

[Patty]

That was all the rage back then, I think.

[Tracy]

Huge. Yeah. Yeah. But it is. It is wild.

[Patty]

It took you by surprise. Look, satanic panic is everywhere.

[Law Enforcement Official]

Police officers all over North America went out looking for this stuff and prosecuted people. The satanic panic was picking up steam and it started to spread out and affect more people. It just went viral. And all of this was started by this book.

[Patty]

Police are literally looking for people to arrest over at. Hello, West Memphis three.

[Tracy]

Yeah, girl. Helix is back. Look, we were both traveling a lot. I got to tell you, I was so looking forward to coming home to my Helix mattress. It was like the happiest thing I did when I got back.

[Patty]

I love it because it has the Helix sleep quiz.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

And that matches you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and your sleep needs. And I didn't know it was possible, but the midnight luxe has solved everything.

[Tracy]

Yeah. It's a two minute quiz. You take it so fast. They've got free shipping and seamless delivery, which, honestly, I remember when my mattress arrived. They make it so freaking easy.

[Patty]

Yeah. And they have a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty because you have to, like, be in it for a little bit to make sure.

[Tracy]

And if it's not working for you, you send it back.

[Patty]

Yeah. Very soon you'll be like, never mind.

[Tracy]

And I don't know that anybody's ever done that. Yeah.

[Patty]

And if you're like a study girly. If you're like, I want to see.

[Tracy]

What the study says, not me, but tell me.

[Patty]

Well, so a study they ran found that 82% of people using Helix on increase in their deep sleep cycle while sleeping on a Helix mattress.

[Tracy]

I got. I'm really not just saying it, fam. Like, climbing into that bed like, you know that mattress is about to take care of you so good. It's so good. So, fam. Go to helixleep.com tco for 27% off site wide, exclusive for listeners of True crime obsessed.

[Patty]

That's helixsleep.com TCO for 27% off site wide, which is exclusive for listeners of True Crime Obsessed.

[Tracy]

Yeah. Make sure you enter our name after checkout so they know that we sent you. We want the credit girl. Yeah.

[Patty]

Helixsleep.com 99 so easy.

[Tracy]

So easy.

[Patty]

So it's Victoria, 1976, like four years before the book comes out.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And Teresa is talking about Dr. Larry, her father. She had this great childhood. It was fabulous. She was really lucky. And she's like, but that was before the book.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

And then we learn about a made for TV movie from 1976 called Sybil. This is based on a book from 1973 and played by Sally Field. Sybil goes to extreme therapy like, five times a week.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

In this therapy, she gradually remembers horrific, sadistic sexual abuse and torture done by her mother.

[Tracy]

Is this real or it's fiction?

[Patty]

I think it's fiction.

[Tracy]

Okay.

[Patty]

I mean, this, we're told it was like a fucking massive hit. Everyone read it. Everyone watched it.

[Tracy]

Yeah. I mean, who hasn't heard of this?

[Patty]

It was a huge deal. I never watched it. It sounds horrifying.

[Tracy]

Well, but that's the whole thing, is that, like, Marilyn Pastor's wife is saying all it took was him seeing that movie to be like, I want to be that kind of psychiatrist.

[Patty]

And he wants to be famous.

[Tracy]

Yes, exactly.

[Patty]

That's what he wants.

[Tracy]

And he says, I've got a pat with exactly the same set of problems. Like, this is gonna be like. This is the moment he realizes Michelle is his meal taker.

[Patty]

And then you're like, oh, that's why she started therapy again.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Because he called her.

[Tracy]

Right. And so Teresa, the daughter, says, he was so invested in Michelle, so invested in getting this story. He gives Michelle his home phone number, and she never stops calling.

[Patty]

The phone never stopped ringing from that day until it all.

[Tracy]

Yes. Marilyn, the wife, says, when he came.

[Additional Interviewee]

In the door, I would watch the clock. And sometimes it would get to maybe about 2 minutes, 3 minutes, and then the phone would ring.

[Tracy]

He'd be on the phone with her all night long. This is whether you're Michelle screaming these stories into the phone at all hours of the day or Dr. Pastor having to fucking listen to it or his.

[Patty]

Family having to deal with it. Because then, like, he's not a husband and father anymore.

[Interviewee/Expert]

No.

[Patty]

This becomes his whole life. And so the kids and his wife are super unsettled by it. Like, it's not only. It very quickly stops being an annoyance to a major concern.

[Tracy]

They go on this trip to Mexico for Christmas because, like, Marilyn is like, this is crazy. I got to get out of my way. She somehow gets the hotel phone number, is calling him the entire time they're on this trip.

[Patty]

That made it worse.

[Tracy]

Yes. She said, Marilyn says that trip changed absolutely everything. They start describing Michelle as frightening. They're afraid of her.

[Patty]

Have you. You know the movie what About Bob?

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Hilarious.

[Tracy]

I don't think I've ever seen it. Oh, my.

[Patty]

It's so funny. It's a comedy, right?

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

But it also. People have done that thing where they edit the trailer to make it look like a horror movie.

[Tracy]

Oh, I love that.

[Patty]

Because Bob goes to see Richard Dreyfuss for help, and then he's like, no, I'm leaving for the summer. I'm going to Lake Winnipesaukee with my family. We will start our work when I return.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Patty]

And so Bob is like, no. Tracks him down at, like, Winnipesaukee, and, like, won't leave.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Patty]

And it's funny because of how it's written. It's Frank Oz. It's, like, hilarious. But you can easily edit that.

[Tracy]

Totally.

[Patty]

No one's believing Richard Dreyfuss. He's totally gaslit the whole time. He's like, this is inappropriate. And everyone's like, but he's fun. And so, like. But that's what's happening. Only in the worst, most fucked up way.

[Tracy]

And it's terrifying. And then we learn. Marilyn says that they went to Edmonton for a wedding.

[Additional Interviewee]

We went to Edmonton to a wedding. And she followed us all the way. And I cried all the way because there she was, right behind us. His patient was everywhere.

[Tracy]

Michelle follows behind them in her own car the entire way.

[Patty]

Like, she's stalking them.

[Tracy]

Literally stalking them. This is terrifying.

[Patty]

And Teresa says it was frightening. She also says Michelle was always there. But then she says this story had him wrapped around her finger, meaning he was like, oh, this is my meal ticket to make a zillion dollars.

[Tracy]

Literally. I mean, like, this is. I mean, that is what's really going on here. Like, he can't rebuff her in any way because she's the prize.

[Patty]

And now what's happening is. Even BFF Chidi says it's very clear to everybody that Michelle is incredibly attached to Larry.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And, like, that's all part of it, right? Like, he. It's Mutually beneficial for. According to him. Well, and it's like grooming her.

[Tracy]

And they say that this can easily happen if you. If you've suffered a trauma, you now you're back with your therapist and like, you're in these like six hour. We'll just call them passionate, like, fucking sessions. Yeah, this happens all the. Where the feelings get mixed up. He's grooming her. This is horrible. All in the name of making a million dollars.

[Patty]

And this is four years before the book.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Patty]

So this goes on for years. And it's like he's encouraging the trauma, not helping her work through it in this weird way.

[Tracy]

Well, Sarah Marshall tells us that, like, what they know about their sessions is that, like, it starts with them, like holding hands during sessions.

[Interviewee/Expert]

He's then sometimes placing a hand onto top of her head. And gradually they move from the couch to a rubber mat he has on the floor so that they can both lie on the floor together, their bodies touching.

[Tracy]

Lying down on the floor next to her, holding his patient. Jeff, get off me.

[Patty]

Yeah, sounds like grooming to me.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Patty]

So Mary Lynn, the wife doesn't like any of this, obviously. She's like, this woman is always around, stalking her family. Her husband is now not around. He's always. There's no boundaries. But also only boundaries with his wife. Because now everything's a secret. She's like, what is happening?

[Tracy]

Well, so Marilyn calls up that father Guy, and I think, this is really fucking funny.

[Patty]

She has to make a move. And boy, does she ever.

[Tracy]

Because it's. So we hear that she records it, by the way, like, unbelievable. She is going in, no nonsense, like, what the fuck is going on here?

[Patty]

And she goes, when is this stupid book gonna be finished? Like, I'd like my husband back, please.

[Tracy]

And this is where Father Guy starts saying, like, this is gonna be the most important book. People are gonna die. It's gonna be bombshells. There's so much. This is where we realize this is an enterprise, this book.

[Patty]

She's like, I gotta tell ya, I don't get what's so important. I'm not seeing it.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

I'm not seeing it. And he's like, oh, this is gonna. People are gonna be shocked and we're gonna get rich. And she's like, I don't understand. So Mary Lynn realizes how big that it's like Bishop Fifi La Rue and fucking the Pope and all these people are involved. And she's like, oh, this is bizarre. Cause how is everyone believing this? She goes, I don't understand how anyone will believe such a stupid book.

[Tracy]

It's incredible. She goes all the way to the bishop, and she's like, what? That lady was following us on our trip to Edmonton or whatever.

[Patty]

Yeah, like, please, Fifi Laverou to the stage.

[Tracy]

So then, exactly after the book comes.

[Patty]

Out, it gets worse.

[Tracy]

I mean, it gets so much worse. There's an article in People magazine, and there's a picture of Michelle that Michelle supplied to the magazine.

[Interviewee/Expert]

There she is lying on this couch, and she's got her top off. And why would you give that picture in the first place to a magazine? Like, you've got a wife back home. You're really gonna get shit for this.

[Patty]

And they are, like, posing like, jack, draw me like one of your French girls. Only they're in a session with their clothes off, like, clutching each other.

[Tracy]

And this is where Marilyn says, I realized there was no hope. That's where his affection was.

[Interviewee/Expert]

This is it.

[Tracy]

Michelle and Doug get divorced. Teresa, the daughter, is describing the mom because, like, the mom is like, forget it. She goes downtown. She knows it's over. She files for divorce.

[Additional Interviewee]

She's.

[Tracy]

And Theresa's like, he just completely broke my mom's heart. I don't, by the way, think he was ever in love with Michelle and that everyone's miserable.

[Patty]

Yeah, Michelle's miserable. The divorce is bad. Everyone. He's not even nice to his kids anymore. Like, what is the point of this.

[Tracy]

All of this, for, like, the million dollars to write this book.

[Patty]

Right? And then for us to drag you for an hour and a half?

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Interviewee/Expert]

To what end?

[Tracy]

Oh, my God. We're back with the news anchor with the shoulder pads.

[Patty]

Oh, my God.

[Tracy]

Same outfit.

[Patty]

Well, because now everyone on Earth is a victim of a satanic cult, and everyone is here to tell their story to Geraldo or whoever.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

So, like, everyone, especially Geraldo, everyone has a story. Like this one woman example. At 11 years old, she was raped and forced to have a baby. And then the baby was sacrificed, and then now.

[Tracy]

And she was forced to kill the baby, according to this woman.

[Patty]

Right? And I'm like, why isn't anyone asking a question other than like, wow, was that crazy for you?

[Tracy]

I know.

[Patty]

Why isn't anyone being like, like.

[Tracy]

Because I don't think anybody believes it.

[Patty]

But they also tell us a hundred times that you're not allowed to question these people because then you are the monster. I reject that.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

Fuck all of this. Like, it's become a major. And it's like, now everyone you've ever met has Been forced to kill a baby, but no arrests have been made. I would proof.

[Tracy]

Just going to say that because we get time and time again that, like, the. The people who do this are so good at covering up. They use crematorium. They say that a thousand times. Like, can you imagine a world where there's just a bunch of, like, rampant baby killers killing 2 million babies a year, but, like, nobody's been caught, and.

[Patty]

Then they're telling Sally Jesse Raphael about it and nothing happens to them?

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Patty]

There's this one story where the woman's like, she claimed that we had a pizza delivery boy come to our home. We cut him up, grilled him him and ate him. Oh, we lured a pizza delivery boy over.

[Tracy]

We cooked him and ate him.

[Patty]

And I'm like, did you. Are you even lying about ordering the pizza?

[Tracy]

I know.

[Patty]

Did you not even order pizza? Like, I know, but no one's asking any questions. And I'll tell you why they're not getting arrested, because there's no proof of any of that.

[Tracy]

Exactly. Like, where's the pizza boy, though?

[Patty]

In the world? You. You go on television and say, I was part of this.

[Tracy]

Well, it's interesting because we get into the talk show culture a little bit here. What nobody says is how badly people wanted to be on these talk shows.

[Patty]

That's.

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Patty]

They want the attention.

[Tracy]

They want the attention. They want to be FL To New York for the guest of the Rosie o' donnell show, Stay at the Parker Meridian. You know what I mean?

[Patty]

They also show that Dale Griffiths guy from the west Memphis three trial. Like, he's such a fucking idiot.

[Tracy]

Is he the turtle guy?

[Patty]

No, he's one of, like, the experts. He was, like, a cop and then got, like, certified over the weekend. And so he's, like, all over television being like, oh, yeah, like, totally.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And also, how could you be an expert on something that just started happening, right? There's no studies done. No one's, like, actually being curious and trying to get to the bottom of it and arrest these. Like, where are they all? Everyone has escaped the cult. But where are the cult members? Where is everybo? Where are you?

[Tracy]

And where is the disbelief that these people could be killing babies and there wouldn't be a shred of evidence anywhere?

[Patty]

And where did it happen? And where are all the missing babies?

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patty]

No, because the story is I was there, right? I gave. I gave birth to the baby, and then I killed the baby. And also, I'm walking free among you.

[Tracy]

But 2 million missing babies did Mary.

[Patty]

Come to all of them speaking French.

[Tracy]

Right in the galaxy, mama, where'd you go?

[Patty]

Where are the people being like, oh, Jillian was gone for six months.

[Tracy]

Right.

[Patty]

Like, where are.

[Tracy]

Oh, well, we'll get to that. Yeah.

[Patty]

So. And also, this is where we get the statistic that suddenly two children have gone missing and our friend is like, the Satanist took and sacrificed 54% of the kids in this country.

[Tracy]

I mean, like, the thing is, the talk show producers don't care. Love it.

[Patty]

They see their ratings go.

[Tracy]

Five days of programming they gotta do every week.

[Patty]

It gets to the point where the Church of Satan is suing Larry and Michelle.

[Tracy]

Can you imagine when you're being sued by the Church of Satan for defamation. For defamation, exactly.

[Patty]

And they kind of win because we're told that they took out most of the references in future printing. So, again, the damage was done.

[Tracy]

Yes, but they.

[Patty]

They sued and won, which is pretty telling.

[Tracy]

I mean, I. The Church of Satan is like, they're not fucking around. You know what I mean?

[Church of Satan Representative]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Because also, this is not what they believe. So how dare you?

[Tracy]

Right, Exactly.

[Patty]

So this is where we get Michelle's sister, Cheryl.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Patty]

And she's like, here's what's weird. Like, this is what I needed the documentary to do. Because if we didn't do this, I'd be fucking pissed.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Because she says, I don't believe that my mom is that type of person that would turn her child over to satanic cult. It was not part of my childhood when I was a kid.

[Patty]

Yeah. That whole satanic cult thing was, like, definitely not a part of my childhood. No. My mom actually died when Cheryl was 10. And this is all impossible.

[Tracy]

The sisters are here to say she was never missing for 14 months. My sister was never missing for 14 months. My mom had a really fucking hard life.

[Patty]

Did her best.

[Tracy]

Did her best.

[Patty]

Did not sacrifice any one of us.

[Tracy]

No.

[Patty]

And, like, the question for the sisters is. It's so hurtful. Cheryl's like, why would she say that?

[Tracy]

Right.

[Patty]

Why would she say that? Our mother, who worked her ass off and was an abused woman and did her best for her kids. Like, why would she make up the story about her mom like that?

[Tracy]

And, like, this is the. And why would nobody investigate it? You know what I mean? Everyone's just taking it at face value because they want it to be true.

[Patty]

Well, Ken, the FBI guy, who's a skeptic in this, it's 1987, and he meets Larry and Michelle at some event. They're the keynote Speakers at something like poisoning all these minds.

[Tracy]

But he's, like, literally there to, like, take notes and learn.

[Patty]

And he's like, here's the weird thing. Immediately, he notices that Larry does all the talking.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

So people will ask Michelle about Michelle's experience. And Larry answers.

[Tracy]

Then Lanning from the FBI asks Pasner, why? Why is that? Why is Michelle not answering? And he says, well.

[Consulting Expert]

Well, when she first came to me, she had no conscious memory of it. And through this therapy, this story began to come out over a year or more's time. And then he recorded it, wrote it all down and documented it. And then after that, it kind of. Most of it left her memory, and he was now the keeper of the story.

[Tracy]

But once she recovered them, she instantly worked through them, and they went right back out of her head. So, Pastor, what you're saying is she didn't have the memories before you. You gave them to her, and then she couldn't remember them, so you helped.

[Patty]

Her invent this, and now the story belongs to you.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Patty]

So guess what, everybody. Larry and Michelle get married.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Which is. I don't. Like.

[Tracy]

I mean, to me, at first I was like, wait, are they implying that they got married? Because, like, married people can't testify against each other? Like, that was my. My first thought.

[Patty]

Oh, I wish.

[Tracy]

But, like, it just turns out, like, remember how insane Michelle was, like, stalking the family? She was totally in love with him. He saw dollar signs on her. And so they get married, and it's like, like. And. And once again, everybody's miserable, but because.

[Patty]

Everyone'S like, they weren't even compatible. Like, not only is it totally unethical, but they didn't even really, like, outside of this conspiracy theory they created.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

So, like, why, like, no one can understand. Even people here are, like, why couldn't they just make money on the book? Like, why'd they have to get married if they don't even like each other?

[Tracy]

I feel like the two of them never had the honest conversation. Like, I feel like Michelle got maybe. I know she doesn't drink, but she got. You know, she vaped one night and confided in a friend, like, none of this ever happened. Yeah. But her and Larry never had that conversation. I think the two of them had to keep this lie up to each other, like, at all times.

[Patty]

That's true.

[Tracy]

And it's sort of like, I think, another reason they got. Imagine if he tried to marry somebody else, which she would have done.

[Patty]

Well, that.

[Tracy]

It's the kind of thing where, like, she's Got the secret. He's got the secret.

[Additional Interviewee]

We always thought there was a reason why he had to marry her. You know, he's a psychiatrist and he crossed the line with her. And she had tied him into that lie so tightly with that book that there was no getting out of it.

[Tracy]

If he does something she doesn't like, she can expose the whole thing. Yeah.

[Patty]

I do want to say too, I don't want to forget that there's a very big possibility that she was groomed by him and totally abused by him and that it's easier to, like, keep her under his thumb if he's married to her.

[Tracy]

Yeah, I get. I think that's absolutely true.

[Patty]

I think there's a lot of things at play here. But the like. Tell me more about your trauma and then lean into it in this way where he's like, emotionally and psychologically tying them to each other.

[Tracy]

Well, and I would say that, like, that was what Michelle wanted all along. I think. I think Michelle was always in love with him or was always obsessed with him. I think that he saw that if I can give her what she wants, she can give me what I want.

[Patty]

I think it's clear that Michelle went through a lot of shit. Her sister says as much. And I think she was, like, looking for something, which is what happens with cults.

[Tracy]

And I also don't want to discount the idea that something really traumatic could have happened to her when she was 5, you know what I mean?

[Patty]

And something traumatic did happen to her with her miscarriage, for sure. So that is, like, for me, the crux of this whole thing that no one's talking about.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

That, like, the miscarriage happened and then it's all about dead babies and danger to babies and all of that.

[Tracy]

And it's like, well, as I am with her in all of this, I do also want to remember that. I do think those memory lines can become blurry. And I think when you're working with a psychiatrist, all of a sudden these things that you one time knew weren't real, you start to forget or you start to think are real.

[Patty]

Yeah. And I think that was all part of his plan. He knew he could manipulate her and, like, morph her mind in that way for sure. So then Geraldo does this super damaging three hour special.

[Tracy]

Why is he always doing three hour specials?

[Patty]

He doesn't push back on a goddamn thing.

[Tracy]

None of them do. They never do.

[Patty]

I know countless people are acc. Women, insane accusations. People are going to prison, as we know.

[Tracy]

And like, this was an epidemic. I mean, this was like ruining lives all over the place.

[Patty]

Yeah. And there are a lot of people who want to be like, the satanic panic wasn't real.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Today. A lot of people think that the satanic panic was sort of a joke. But a lot of conditions were created during that time for people to get more interested in the idea that evil, bad things were going on. And you know, one of those things that you could really hang your hat on was Satan. And it was dead serious.

[Tracy]

Yes, yes, it was, it was, it was. Yeah. I mean like turn on any talk show from the. It was everywhere. It was what everybody, like all. It was what everybody was talking about.

[Patty]

Yeah. And so Larry's ex wife Marilyn is like, she writes to FBI, Ken. She's like, I need to talk to a rational person.

[Tracy]

She's like, let me tell you now that you're looking into this, like, let me tell you how this all happens.

[Patty]

Because she wants to stop this. She is seeing all the death and destruction and wrongful convictions and trauma that now like imagine being a five year old kid going to daycare or whatever and now suddenly you have these images in your head that you never would have.

[Tracy]

Oh my God, that is like, that's my worst nightmare for children.

[Patty]

If these people didn't exist or do this thing like you were just living your little kid life, being like a cute little kid and now you believe.

[Tracy]

That you were like murdering your own baby at 5 years old.

[Patty]

And like all this stuff happened to you. Like the image it like animals being hurt like that with you forever. Like I have those images and I didn't have any of this.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Patty]

So now you're putting this like, why are you ruining all kinds of lives like this?

[Tracy]

Marilyn does the good work because Marilyn is like, let me get to the bottom of this. She like, she researches the living shit out of Michelle.

[Patty]

Asking all the questions I've been asking, like when and where exactly was this.

[Tracy]

Where Debbie Nathan, one of our talking heads, she's a journalist here, she's saying that in Michelle Remembers, Michelle offers specific dates. We're looking at 1955, when she was held captive by these Satanists. And she said it was like for 14 months. So Debbie is saying she should not exist anywhere in 80, 19, 1955. If that story is true, too bad she does well, because they go back to her grade school and ask them for the yearbook.

[Additional Interviewee]

They have a collection of all the yearbooks. Her picture was right there. They said the picture was taken in the fall. Well, she was supposed to be locked up. She wasn't her picture was right there. There she was. So you can't deny it.

[Tracy]

They find her yearbook, they see, right. They show us the date 1955. There's a picture of Michelle. It was taken in the like when.

[Patty]

She, when she's supposed to be locked up.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And Michelle claims she didn't even know French. The Virgin Mary spoke to her in French and she couldn't believe it. And that's part of the miracle, right? Her sister's like. Right, but you knew French.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

Like you won an award for French in high school. Michelle is an award winning French speaker.

[Tracy]

And like their grandparents who spoke French and Michelle would speak to them fluently.

[Patty]

An award winning French speaker is going to sit here and tell you that Mary couldn't even speak French to her.

[Tracy]

With a Virgin Mary. Come on.

[Patty]

But she could understand it because it was part of the miracle.

[Tracy]

Right? And the other part of the miracle, Ennis the cop, the. The male witch back to say that like in the book, she describes being locked up, beaten, teeth knocked out, skin ripped off. There should be scars from that, right? No, the angel Michael came and took all of her scars away.

[Patty]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Tracy]

Who is believing this?

[Patty]

I. I don't understand. I don't understand.

[Tracy]

And like, I also don't know if we said this before. The, the Catholic Church completely financed this book. Like there is evidence to show that the Catholic Church completely financed this book. They wanted this as a propaganda tool.

[Patty]

Right. So you have Michelle seeing him because of a mis. Suddenly her nightmares involve dead babies. You don't have to be Colombo to put two and two together. And now you add the Catholic guilt.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

Oh my God, yes.

[Tracy]

But also like the Catholics want the Satan nightmare to exist because where's that going to send people to the opposite to the Catholic Church.

[Patty]

And you know, go ask Alice too. That book, like, I own the book. It's a bizarre piece of propaganda. Odd. It was I think written by some like Mormon mom who.

[Tracy]

Well, it says Anonymous.

[Patty]

Yeah, but it's like it was like some mom from the Mormon church.

[Tracy]

Oh, is that right?

[Patty]

So if you don't know about. Go ask Alice, go ask Alice. Alice is a book that was then.

[Tracy]

You clearly have not read my book.

[Patty]

That was supposed to be this like anonymous diary that was found and it tells the story and like through diary entries we learn like this super, super wholesome girl who loves her parents and never like looked at a glass of beer, now like goes to party and smokes reefer. And now suddenly by the end of it, she's like forced into sex work and ODs.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And it's a total fucking fear mongering, insane thing that they made everybody read in seventh grade and then they made a boy one called Jake's Journal. No, but it's all propaganda from the church.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Patty]

It's not actually. Some like. Or I think it was like her parents wanted the world to know to not do drugs, so they released her diary. Even reading it the first time, you're like, this is so much.

[Tracy]

A little much.

[Additional Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Patty]

Like the story are like, oh, and then I did this and that. It's like so crazy. You should read it. It's like a very fascinating time capsule of what the adults wanted the kids to not think and not think. I own it. I will start. You know what? I'm gonna read it again.

[Tracy]

Not only did I read it, I did a high school pre. I did a seventh grade presentation where I dressed up as Alice and interviewed myself.

[Patty]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracy]

It's in my book.

[Patty]

It's crazy.

[Tracy]

Yeah, it's a.

[Patty]

It's a fascinating read. Like, it's pretty enjoyable because you're like, this is insane.

[Tracy]

But like, I did wear a wig and a mini skirt.

[Patty]

That's like pre Alice or like pre drugs or post drugs.

[Tracy]

I don't probably pre or maybe post. I can't really remember.

[Patty]

She becomes like a drug dealer in a week. It's so insane. It's such a fun read, as weird as that is for me to say. But the point is, like, this shit was happening.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And then it's suddenly like everyone is taking it as reality and it's not reality.

[Tracy]

Yeah. I mean, it's all just ridiculous. And it's, you know, like, just like as we're getting to the end of this thing, it's just like we're coming back around. Sarah, the podcaster is once again reminding us that this book has like an extraordinary number of dead babies in it and that it's really just baby torture porn and that that is the origin story that like, that Michelle was feeling this enormous guilt or whatever over the miscarriage, called her doctor. It's just so wild to me that the doctor be able to say, you know what I'm doing with this? I'm going to implant some devil shit.

[Patty]

Well, to that point, the reason satanic panic started to die down was money. A lot of it had to do.

[Interviewee/Expert]

With insurance companies because the therapists and.

[Patty]

Psychiatrists and psychologists, they were being paid.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Sometimes covered by insurance companies for these, for this endless counseling. And the insurance companies Started investigating. They said, we're not going to pay anymore.

[Patty]

Insurance companies started investigating, and that's what happened. And they were like, oh, I can't prove anything. Never mind.

[Tracy]

Just another example of the insurance companies to the rescue. Thank you for bringing that up again, girl.

[Patty]

And then people started suing therapists for planning false memories. It became a fucking mess.

[Tracy]

Thank God.

[Patty]

But, like, this is still around, like, Pizzagate and QAnon and.

[Church of Satan Representative]

I know.

[Patty]

I mean, it's just so crazy.

[Tracy]

And it's like the Internet has only made it worse.

[Patty]

And we live in this world, like, right now, like today, this minute, that people are just believing things that aren't true.

[Tracy]

I know.

[Patty]

And like, elected officials are lying to you about something that you can say, like, two plus two is four, and they'll be like, no, two plus two is orange. And you're like, it's not, though.

[Tracy]

And it's crazy because, like, TikTok, all of these social media platforms only make it worse because they will only feed you the information that you're seeking.

[Patty]

And it's the algorithm and it's confirmation bias. It's just a mess. So, like, what? They did fudge us for all eternity.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Patty]

And it might have happened in some other way. I'm sure some other opportunists would have done it, but in this case, Larry did it. And now he's dead.

[Tracy]

He died in 2004 of a massive heart attack, you know, and like, the best part of his death was that it got Michelle a lot of his kids lives. Like, they literally say, that isn't that crazy? Like, she was with them all the way up until the very end. And Teresa was like, I basically never talk to my dad again. Calls her bride of Satan.

[Patty]

Literally calls her bride of Satan. And now Michelle didn't want to participate in the stock because. And Chidi is here to say, well, you know, the book ruined her life. Like, she hates the book. And I'm like, well, I don't blame her for that, but she needs to take some response. Like, unless I'm going to get dragged because she was groomed and abused, which I understand. But at some point, yes.

[Tracy]

I mean, at some point, like, I. If. If she knows that she was groomed, come tell us. We'll. We'll be on your side in that. You know what I mean? Like.

[Patty]

Cause Chidi's like.

[Church of Satan Representative]

And if anybody should have blame. As much as I loved Larry, and I'm not even big on men, but I loved Larry, and he, I think, was responsible for the book.

[Patty]

I love Larry and I don't much care for men in general.

[Tracy]

That's what I feel about Larry as a rule.

[Patty]

But this book is 100% Larry's fault.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Patty]

And it's like, okay, well, this is a traumatized woman who went through something, and we don't know the rest of what she went through, but we do know that she had a miscarriage. And that sucks. That is a tragic thing.

[Tracy]

And the other thing I know is that I never need to hear therapy tapes of some lady screaming about the devil, like, stabbing her baby, like, can this be the last time? I can't do it again.

[Patty]

I am grateful. I have to say that that is your reaction and not like, oh, my God, can you believe how real this is?

[Tracy]

You guys, we finally got the answer about the Satanist skulls.

[Patty]

It would have been an extra hard day. Can you believe that? Imagine if I was like, yeah, sorry, cheaty, you're on your own with this one.

[Tracy]

Cheaty.

[Patty]

Cheaty. Believe in it.

[Tracy]

You know what? Speaking of cheating, go watch the Good Place, everybody.

[Patty]

Okay.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God, girl, we did. Satan wants you. He doesn't. He doesn't want you.

[Patty]

You should care more about yourself.

[Tracy]

You know what I want you to do, though, is go join the Facebook group. Really super fun in there. Go subscribe. Go subscribe to our YouTube channel. It is so much fun. Over. Over 200,000 subscribers. It's so fun over there. Join the discord. What are we doing next?

[Patty]

We are doing Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart on Netflix.

[Tracy]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[Patty]

Let me tell you. Yeah, it is excellent.

[Tracy]

Oh, great.

[Patty]

Finally we're kind of getting back to, like, we love her, but we're getting back to, like, well made, substantial, respectful, awesome documentaries. This doc is awesome.

[Tracy]

How's her gay dad? Is he in it?

[Patty]

He's in it.

[Tracy]

Oh, hey, Queen.

[Patty]

Yep. Yeah, I mean, she tells the story. Her sister tells the story. Like, everyone is here telling the story. It's crazy.

[Tracy]

Okay, Amazing. All right, we love that. So stay tuned for the trailer for that. And we love you.

[Patty]

We love you.

[Tracy]

Okay, bye.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Elizabeth smart was a 14 year old girl.

[Law Enforcement Official]

The family said she'd been taken from.

[Patty]

Her bedroom in the middle of the night.

[Tracy]

I saw this cut screen and the window was wide open. My wife screamed, Call 911. Elizabeth was living a very normal life.

[Interviewee/Expert]

In a very nice neighborhood.

[Patty]

Our community had mobilized.

[Interviewee/Expert]

Everybody was willing to just drop what.

[Tracy]

They were doing and search. We love you. We want you to come home safely to us.

[Interviewee/Expert]

This case captivated the nation. There was a sense of, is it the family could he be involved?

[Consulting Expert]

My wife said law enforcement don't believe.

[Tracy]

That you're telling the truth. I had nothing to do with this.

[Interviewee/Expert]

There's so little evidence to go on. But there was a witness to the kidnapping.

[Tracy]

Her nine year old sister, Mary Catherine.

[Patty]

I knew I'd heard the voice. I just couldn't remember where I'd heard it from. I just wanted to tell them I'm still alive.

[Interviewee/Expert]

It.