485: Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart

Summary

True Crime Obsessed – Episode 485: "Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart" (February 17, 2026)

Overview

This episode of True Crime Obsessed recaps and analyzes the Netflix documentary "Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart." With their characteristic blend of humor, empathy, and sharp insights, hosts Tracy, Bobbi, and Nick walk listeners through the harrowing case of Elizabeth Smart’s 2002 abduction, the failures and perseverance of law enforcement, and the lasting impact on the Smart family. The conversation addresses media bias, trauma, religious context, and survivor advocacy, highlighting not only Elizabeth's ordeal but also her bravery in telling her story.

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Main Theme

A deep dive into the story of Elizabeth Smart’s abduction—how it unfolded, the subsequent investigation, the media and public’s reactions, and ultimately, Elizabeth’s rescue and recovery. The episode explores systemic issues such as police mishandling, the complicity of certain community institutions, lasting familial trauma, and the power of survivor narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Night of the Abduction (00:56–06:36)

• Set-Up: On June 5, 2002, 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart was taken from her bedroom while her family slept. The only witness: her 9-year-old sister, Mary Catherine.
• Mary Catherine's Recall: Mary Catherine’s paralyzing fear as the abduction occurred beside her.
  • "She was paralyzed... This is the thing that literal nightmares are made of." – Tracy (04:12)
• Family Realization: Initial disbelief, then anguish as the family and police begin their search, noting the open window and chair used for entry.
• Parental Guilt: Ed Smart’s heartbreaking sense of failure as a parent.
  • "Your only job is to keep your kids safe. And I didn’t do that." – Tracy, paraphrasing Ed Smart (04:44)

2. Community & Media Reaction (08:19–13:03)

• Unthinkable Crime in Affluent Mormon Community: The context of Salt Lake City’s insular and religious culture amplifies the shock.
  • "You wouldn’t think crime happens here... I remember thinking, is this a real kidnapping?" – Bobbi (08:42)
• National Media Frenzy: The case becomes national news, due in part to Elizabeth’s demographics.
  • "Pretty blonde white girl in the Beverly Hills area of, like, super white Salt Lake City. She’s gonna get all the attention." – Bobbi (10:16)

3. Family Under Scrutiny (13:03–21:01)

• The Investigation Focuses on the Smart Family: Repeating patterns from infamous cases (like JonBenet Ramsey), police zero in on family members due to lack of outside evidence.
• Polygraphs and Public Perception: Ed Smart becomes the face of the investigation, criticized for his "unusual" public demeanor.
  • "He is crying without tears, a lot." – Tracy (21:30)
  • "It made me really stop and, like, really sit with what I do for a living." – Bobbi (21:50)
• Family Trauma and Dynamics: Divorce, Ed’s coming out, and the family’s fractured aftermath.
  • "Turn a camera on any family and it’s like there’s gonna be some kind of chaos underneath." – Tracy (13:14)

4. The Police, the Lead, and Mary Catherine as a Witness (15:28–17:56)

• Mary Catherine’s Pivotal Role: The intense, unfair pressure put on a traumatized nine-year-old to remember or identify the abductor.
  • "Mary Catherine can’t win and even as a nine year old she knows that." – Bobbi (16:09)
• Distrust of Her Account: Police skepticism toward Mary Catherine’s memory, even as she confidently asserts she recognizes the abductor’s voice but cannot place it.

5. Suspect Focus: Richard Ricci (28:00–33:31)

• The Pursuit of a Convenient Suspect: Contractors who had worked in the Smart home—specifically Richard Ricci—draw intense scrutiny.
• Mary Catherine's Certainty: Despite police fixation on Ricci, Mary Catherine says "that’s not him" after seeing him on TV.
  • "She saw it independently and said, that’s not him." – Bobbi (31:19)
• Tragic Consequences: Ricci dies in custody under murky circumstances; case momentum is lost as police insist he is the perpetrator despite a lack of evidence.

6. Elizabeth’s Ordeal (41:17–54:08)

• Elizabeth’s Perspective: The focus shifts, mid-episode, to Elizabeth narrating her abduction and captivity.
• Immediate & Relentless Abuse: Graphic details of the sexual and psychological abuse she endured.
  • "Every hour for the next five months." – Bobbi (48:22)
• Patriarchal & Religious Dynamics: The perpetrators justify their crimes using religious dogma; Elizabeth’s upbringing in Mormonism shapes her shame and fear.
  • "She wasn’t taught about rape or consent or intimacy or love... just ‘don’t have it before marriage.’" – Bobbi (50:35)
• Impact of Shame and Secrecy: Elizabeth struggles with misplaced guilt and the fear that her family would not want her back.

7. The Case Breaks Open (54:59–62:11)

• Mary Catherine Remembers: After months in isolation, Mary Catherine recalls the abductor’s name: “Emmanuel.”
  • "Her memory, quite frankly, came under disbelief by the investigators. I’m like, well, that, quite frankly, makes me want to scream..." – Bobbi (57:08)
• Emmanuel Revealed: Police connect “Emmanuel” to Brian David Mitchell, a drifter who briefly worked at the Smart home—a link initiated by Lois Smart’s charitable outreach.
  • "Can we learn a lesson here?" – Tracy (56:10)
• Breakthrough Via Public Sketch: The family releases the sketch themselves, immediately generating credible leads, including confirmation from Mitchell’s relatives.

8. Missed Opportunities and Law Enforcement Failures (59:09–63:02)

• Police Hesitancy: Repeated missed opportunities to intervene—especially a library encounter where officers fail to look behind Elizabeth’s veil citing “religious freedom.”
• Public Sighting: Numerous documented occasions when Elizabeth was in public with her captors, but the context and authorities’ assumptions thwart rescue.

9. Elizabeth’s Rescue & Aftermath (67:04–73:38)

• Elizabeth Manipulates Brian David Mitchell: Elizabeth convinces her captor to return to Salt Lake City using her understanding of his religious narcissism—a subtle but powerful act of resistance.
  • "Unbelievable. Elizabeth Smart is living up to her last name." – Tracy (67:04)
• Dramatic Rescue: Police swarm the trio in Salt Lake, finally confirming Elizabeth’s identity after she gives a careful coded answer (“thou sayest”).
• Emotional Family Reunion: The heart-wrenching return of Elizabeth to her father, and her fears of abandonment lift.
  • "Finally my dad was there. He wasn’t going to abandon me. It was going to be okay." – Elizabeth (70:40)

10. Justice, Healing, and Advocacy (73:42–76:10)

• Legal Outcomes: Brian David Mitchell is sentenced to life in prison; Wanda Barzee serves 15 years.
  • "But for her to only get that amount of time for being so complicit..." – Bobbi (75:05)
• Elizabeth’s Ongoing Work: Elizabeth dedicates herself to advocacy, turning her trauma into purpose.
  • "I wanted survivors to know that they had nothing to be ashamed of... they weren’t alone." – Elizabeth (75:30)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 04:28 | Tracy | “This is the thing that literal nightmares are made of.” | | 10:16 | Bobbi | “Pretty blonde white girl in the Beverly Hills area of, like, super white Salt Lake City. She’s gonna get all the attention.” | | 16:09 | Bobbi | "Mary Catherine can’t win and even as a nine year old she knows that." | | 21:30 | Tracy | “He is crying without tears, a lot.” | | 40:13 | Bobbi | “Oh my god, that’s her.” (on seeing the photo of Elizabeth at the party) | | 45:05 | Nick (Elizabeth) | “He just looked at me and he said, I’m not going to rape and kill you yet.” | | 48:22 | Bobbi | “Every hour for the next five months.” (on the abuse) | | 50:35 | Bobbi | "She wasn’t taught about rape or consent or intimacy or love... just 'don’t have it before marriage.'" | | 57:08 | Bobbi | “Her memory, quite frankly, came under disbelief by the investigators. I’m like, well, that, quite frankly, makes me want to scream…” | | 67:04 | Tracy | “Unbelievable. Elizabeth Smart is living up to her last name.” | | 70:40 | Nick (Elizabeth) | “Finally my dad was there. He wasn’t going to abandon me. It was going to be okay.” | | 75:30 | Nick (Elizabeth) | “I wanted survivors to know that they had nothing to be ashamed of… they weren’t alone, that there were other people in this world who have experienced it and who can understand.” |

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Important Timestamps

• Abduction and Family Reaction: 00:56–06:36
• Media Frenzy and Community Mobilization: 08:19–13:03
• Investigation Turns Inward: 13:03–21:01
• Mary Catherine’s Critical Role: 15:28–17:56
• Richard Ricci Focus and Police Failures: 28:00–33:31
• Elizabeth’s Ordeal and Survival: 41:17–54:08
• Breakthrough, Sketch, and Leads: 54:59–62:11
• Elizabeth’s Rescue: 67:04–70:59
• Aftermath, Justice, Advocacy: 73:42–76:10

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Tone & Style Highlights

• Deep Empathy & Anger: The hosts repeatedly express their outrage at law enforcement missteps and heartfelt empathy for the Smart family, especially Mary Catherine.
• Humor Amid Darkness: Signature levity appears, including comic exasperation at media spectacle, “crazy uncle” interviews, and Salt Lake party anecdotes.
• Direct Critique of Institutions: The Mormon church’s culture of secrecy and patriarchy comes in for pointed criticism, as does the polygraph-obsessed, family-suspicious investigational model.
• Advocacy for Education & Openness: Passionate calls for better sex and safety education for kids and less shame and secrecy around abuse.

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Memorable Moments

• True Heroism of Mary Catherine: Despite her youth and trauma, she remains steadfast in her recollection, leading to Elizabeth’s rescue.
• Elizabeth’s Survival Instinct: Using her upbringing’s scripts to manipulate her captor and engineer her own return home.
• Family’s Act of Defiance: Going around police and releasing the “Emmanuel” sketch themselves—an act that changed everything.
• Tear-jerking Reunion: Ed Smart’s emotional reunion with Elizabeth at the station, underscored by his growth and regret.

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Conclusion

This episode of True Crime Obsessed masterfully balances dark material with thoughtful analysis and genuine compassion, shining a light on failures, triumphs, and the complex human fallout of a case that transfixed the nation. Elizabeth Smart’s resilience and advocacy, Mary Catherine’s key role, and the nuanced dissection of institutional and cultural failings offer both insight and hope.

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Transcript

[Tracy]

Girl, I've been dying to tell you this.

[Nick]

What?

[Tracy]

I've got some bad news for the Broadway community.

[Bobbi]

What's going on?

[Tracy]

My dear friend Matt Doyle has met a man.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Tracy]

He's going home to with the man to visit the man's family for the first time.

[Bobbi]

Wonderful.

[Tracy]

Do you. Would you like to know where the man's family lives?

[Bobbi]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

Monaco.

[Bobbi]

Oh, no.

[Tracy]

He's going to Monaco.

[Bobbi]

The safest, unsafe place in the world.

[Tracy]

Matt, we can't lose you. We need you.

[Bobbi]

Well, you know what? Props for not being a billionaire, so I think you'll be fine.

[Tracy]

We don't actually know he like. Matt's gonna do some recon and find out. It could be. We don't know.

[Bobbi]

Ok, now I'm really worried.

[Tracy]

Maddie, we love you. Hi. Jillian Betavalo.

[Bobbi]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Tracy]

Girl, I already forgot what we're supposed to say.

[Bobbi]

Facebook and Patreon, I think. Right?

[Tracy]

Ok. We have a Facebook group, fam. And you should join it. There's like 60,000 people in there and it's really fun. It's where you go to like make new friends. Like talk about the episodes, talk about your dogs, talk about your whatever.

[Bobbi]

Talk about whatever the hell you want.

[Tracy]

There's a dog in our episode today.

[Bobbi]

I know. Jj.

[Tracy]

Jj. He gets like a whole. He doesn't get screen time but he does get mentioned.

[Bobbi]

Best knows on the for.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah. And the Patreon.

[Bobbi]

We're yes on Patreon because that's where you get ad free versions of the episodes on the regular feed. And that's where we do all the series.

[Tracy]

Right now we're doing Trophy wife from Hulu. It is wild.

[Bobbi]

So crazy.

[Tracy]

It is really. And then next we're doing don't date Brandon.

[Bobbi]

Don't date Brandon.

[Tracy]

You know that I'm like really feeling these like love scam things so.

[Bobbi]

This guy is a fucking psychopath.

[Tracy]

Diabolical.

[Bobbi]

I mean like.

[Tracy]

Oh my God. I told you. I saw a TikTok that I from this documentary that I just thought was a. I didn't realize it was from this.

[Bobbi]

I know.

[Tracy]

It is absolutely wild, fam. Go to the show notes. Click there. If you'd like to join us over on the Patreon.

[Nick]

Yep.

[Tracy]

What are we talking about today?

[Bobbi]

This is Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. This is on Netflix and it's pretty excellent but also very harrowing.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Elizabeth smart was a 14 year old girl. The family said she'd been taken from her bedroom in the middle of the night. I saw this cut screen and the window was wide open. My wife screamed, Call 911. Elizabeth was living a very normal life in a very nice neighborhood. Our community had mobilized. Everybody was willing to just drop what they were doing and search.

[Tracy]

We love you. We want you to come home safely to us. This case captivated the nation.

[Bobbi]

There was a sense of is it the family?

[Tracy]

Could he be involved?

[Detective Corden Sparks]

My wife said, law enforcement don't believe that you're telling the truth. I had nothing to do with this. There's so little evidence to go on. But there was a witness to the kidnapping, her nine year old sister Mary Catherine.

[Bobbi]

I knew I'd heard the voice, I just couldn't remember where I'd heard it from.

[Nick]

I just wanted to tell them I'm still alive.

[Tracy]

We open with some on screen text. It's 2002. 14 year old Elizabeth Smart was abducted from her bedroom as she slept. The only witness was this goddamn hero of a little girl, nine year old sister Mary Catherine. And like, Mary Catherine, like this is all in the cold open to the documentary, but she's like says to the producer, you're asking me how I dealt with it. I think I still deal with, of course. And everybody in this family will.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. And everyone for the most part is in the doc. Elizabeth Smart is here. Mary Catherine, her sister. They look so much alike.

[Tracy]

They're like indistinguishable actually.

[Bobbi]

Yeah, her dad, her uncle, who should probably not be in front of a camera ever. But here we are.

[Tracy]

There's a couple uncles here. One is great, one is insane.

[Bobbi]

Insane, Insane.

[Tracy]

I'll just say he's insane, it's just.

[Bobbi]

Okay, we'll get there.

[Tracy]

Way to like make a bad situation like a hundred times worse.

[Bobbi]

Just stop giving him a microphone. So June 5, 2002, Mary Catherine tells us what happened because it happened in her bedroom with her and Elizabeth. Shared a room.

[Nick]

Yeah, that night Elizabeth and I said our prayers together and we went to sleep.

[Bobbi]

The next thing I remembered, there was.

[Nick]

A man in my bedroom telling Elizabeth if she screamed he would kill her.

[Bobbi]

If she screamed that he would kill her.

[Tracy]

Yeah. Mary Catherine said she was paralyzed. Like I mean she's nine years old obviously. I mean this is the thing that literal nightmares are made of. This is the thing that every person, child or adult fears is going to happen to them. It sounds fake, it sounds like a made up story because it is so the definition of a nightmare.

[Bobbi]

And I think the reasoning for that, one of the many reasons is like this happened when everyone was home safe in the house. This is when, when something bad happens out there, you Wish they were here.

[Tracy]

Yes, yes.

[Bobbi]

I think that's why it was so jarring to so many people. Like, she was safe in bed. That's where you're supposed to be. Right?

[Tracy]

It doesn't make any sense. And so Mary Catherine finally says that she worked up the courage to go, like, get her parents, and they wake her up. And it's like, I would probably have this reaction to the dad is like, listen, like, she's here. Like, you're. You weren't dreaming. Whatever. The dad takes a moment to, like, before we get his story, to say, like, as a dad, your only job is to keep your kids safe. And I didn't do that. And it's like.

[Bobbi]

Well, I mean, I. I'm not saying I'm sorry. I hear what you're saying.

[Tracy]

I mean, it's. But this is what I mean. Like, these people, none of them will ever. This will always live in their soul somewhere.

[Bobbi]

And no one expects this to happen. So it's not that crazy for the dad to be like, wait, are you okay? To, like, need a minute to catch up to what's happening? Because no one is ever expecting this to happen.

[Tracy]

No. It's 3:58am they search the house. Elizabeth is not there. And like, all of a sudden, in.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

The kitchen, I saw this cut screen. And the window was wide open. My wife screamed, Call 911.

[Tracy]

The window is wide open. His wife, the mom, screams and calls 911. This is what nightmares are like.

[Bobbi]

That's when everything comes crashing down. When they realize, like, oh, wait a second.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

So they also see, though, that someone put a chair outside. Someone put a chair against the wall so that they can climb in the window and then left the chair there.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Which is so chilling to see this, like, blatant evidence of someone climbing into your home.

[Tracy]

I don't even know what, like, as a parent, I don't know what to say about this because it's like this could to anybody.

[Bobbi]

And also, I always thought that the guy came in through the bedroom window. I didn't know that he was, like, in their house for. For longer than I thought they were.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bobbi]

You know.

[Tracy]

You know, we live in an apartment, so, like, to get into our apartment, you'd have to, like, get in the front door somehow and then get into, like. We feel pretty safe in that way. But, like, this was a very hard documentary for me to watch. It's very, very hard. And it's almost one of those things where, like, this was so easy. How does this not happen? Every day.

[Bobbi]

Not anymore. I guess with everyone has a camera on every.

[Tracy]

You know. I guess, I mean we're gonn later that the, the alarm was not turned on that night. I bet that happens all the time.

[Bobbi]

Unless you're my dad.

[Tracy]

Unless you're.

[Bobbi]

Who locks the door. I have to say dad, we're taking the dogs for a walk. Please don't lock us out. It's Saturday afternoon at 2:30. Yeah, like we have to actually make a point to be like dad, I'm.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

What do we do?

[Bobbi]

Okay, well Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. They got you.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

Yeah, because if you're doing something like this, chances are it's not a nine to five thing. Maybe. And especially when you're starting out, you're, you're like, I need help at 2am Exactly.

[Tracy]

It's a 2am to 9am to 9 a resettlement a.m. to 10am thing.

[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

That's shopify.com obsessed.

[Tracy]

Ooh cha ching.

[Bobbi]

Good sound. Nisha Degaring is here. She's a reporter and she says what everyone's thinking. Like saying the words a girl was taken from her bedroom in the middle of the night was surreal. As she was reporting on it, she couldn't believe what she was saying.

[Tracy]

Especially because they come from like one of the ritziest areas of Salt Lake City.

[Nick]

The homes are gorgeous. The Mormon church is interwoven into the community.

[Bobbi]

You wouldn't think crime happens here. And I remember thinking, is this a real kidnapping?

[Tracy]

I don't blame everybody involved for being like, this isn't real. This is fake.

[Bobbi]

Well, for a moment. I mean, in that, like, the worst kind of surreal, but, like, obvious. I mean, she's not there.

[Nick]

Where did she go?

[Bobbi]

Something horrible.

[Tracy]

No, I actually looked it up. I guess I should probably be a better true crime podcaster and know this off the top of my head. But, like, the Jean Benet Ramsey case was 96. This is 2002. It wasn't. So I think that there is some. Some of the way the treated, I think is a little bit in response to the JonBenet Ramsey case because the families are so similar, Even, like, the locales are similar. And so I think that's part of it. But, like, I don't think anybody is crazy to look around and be like, there's no way this happened like this.

[Bobbi]

No one wants to believe. It's one of those things where no one wants to believe it.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And saying it out loud just doesn't make any sense. Like, how does this work?

[Tracy]

No. So we meet Dave Smart, who's one of Ed's brothers. And, you know, Ed calls him and says, I need your help. And, like, he just describes getting to the house. And, like, his brother looks like he was put through a meat grinder. He says, mom, the Lois, the mom is like, she. He describes the blood curdling sobs coming.

[Bobbi]

Out of her, like, these guttural, like, what do you even. You're not even thinking. She probably doesn't even remember it.

[Tracy]

No. As a parent, I. Every time we cover one of these, like, missing kid situations, all I. When your kid is all you can imagine on a loop in your head is the absolute worst case scenario of what they're going through.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

You know. Right.

[Bobbi]

So Elizabeth has been missing for eight.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Hours, right from the get go. We set up a phone room to take tips. The number of leads that came in from the public numbered about 40,000. And so we assembled a team of hundreds of investigators.

[Bobbi]

They had hundreds of investigators on the case. The entire nation was watching this. And this is where you really see the disparity between this case and others. Like a pretty blonde white girl in the Beverly Hills area of, like, super white Salt Lake City. She's gonna get all the attention.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Like, that's just what's gonna happen.

[Tracy]

One moment of Levity. We meet Corden Sparks. He's an investigator. He's the me of this documentary. Because he's like getting set up for his interview and he's like, well, no.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Matter how much lipstick you put on this pig, I'm not gonna look any better.

[Nick]

Gordon.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. He's like, yeah. Elizabeth was a typical 14 year old devout Mormon. No shady associations. I'm like, yeah, I don't think she's like the drug dealer running with the cartel in Utah.

[Tracy]

Like, that would have been a shock. That would have been so. Although then this kidnapping would have made more sense. Like, you know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

No shady associations either.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

She's not allowed to do anything and she's shamed for everything she does, thanks to the. Honestly, I know we're gonna get into that a lot.

[Tracy]

You're absolutely right.

[Bobbi]

If this doesn't apply to you, fucking great. But there is a lot of shit that goes on in the Mormon Church that is swept under the R rug and that is perpetuated. That is evil.

[Tracy]

You know, Can I also just say, though, I do think that, like, one of the things I wanted to say at some point in here is how I think Elizabeth Smart is so generous to be sharing her story. She's so brave to do it. The moment where, I mean, we all know that Elizabeth Smarter is alive. It's not a reveal. So, you know, the moment we meet her, she like takes a breath and then she tells the story for the nine millionth time. But I do think that one of the lessons to take away from this documentary is don't do that to your kids.

[Bobbi]

Don't do that to your kids.

[Tracy]

As told you one of the kids it was done to. You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

I agree.

[Tracy]

And I think that that's like, I just hope that that's a good thing to come of that.

[Bobbi]

A good takeaway.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

That people, I mean, hopefully.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

So by 4:30pm, the entire community is involved. We have signs, posters, search parties. Someone's like, do any of you know CPR or rock climbing?

[Tracy]

Daisy would have been like, I could do it.

[Bobbi]

And at first I'm like, rock climbing. And then when I realized that they're surrounded by Matt. Oh, that's actually incredibly valuable.

[Tracy]

And like, exactly where they went.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

I was like, oh, yeah, obviously they're asking for rock climbing. My dumb idiot self was like, like, that's interesting.

[Tracy]

Obviously, Salt Lake City is wild. Like, we'll get there later when we meet the party animal of Salt Lake City. But like, you know, we've got a really active TCO group in Salt Lake City and. Hi, everyone. Hi, Suze.

[Bobbi]

Hi, everybody.

[Tracy]

Salt Lake City is amazing because it's, like, beautiful. It's gorgeous. It's like outdoorsy people who like, like to go on the hikes and all of that, but they also, like, you know, there's like, a lot of religious stuff there. Like, Salt Lake City is such an interesting place.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. So the Smart family lived in this home and community for several years.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

They had six kids. Four boys and two girls. Elizabeth and Mary Catherine are the only ones in the doc. Lois, the mom is in here and the brothers aren't here. Yeah, we'll get into Lois maybe at.

[Tracy]

The end, you know, and my thing on that too is like, I get it. Something like this must do crazy things to the family.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. I mean, we say it all the time. I can't believe they're able to sit down and say, you know, things in work like Elizabeth. From Elizabeth to her dad to everyone. I'm always like, I don't know if I could do it.

[Tracy]

No. And this is worth having this conversation for a second because the family dynamic is never discussed in this documentary. We know that Elizabeth's dad has come out of the closet. He's gay.

[Bobbi]

And has left the church and has left the church.

[Tracy]

And obviously the parents aren't together anymore. So, like, adding that to, like, the trauma of this and turn a camera on any family and it's like, there's gonna be some kind of chaos underneath.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. Let me just say, in case you don't know, that was kind of maybe a big, like, moment for you to learn, dear listener. But, like, they got divorced in 2019 after 34 years of marriage. Ed and Lois. And Ed came out as gay. Like, they filed in July and then, like, by December, like, he apologized to Lois. He wrote this, like, really, I think, beautiful statement being like, this is impossible. I totally get it.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

But, like, according to the Internet, like, people.com for whatever, take that with however much Sal want. Like, that's why they're not speaking. So if you don't know that and this is not in the documentary because it's not about this, but, like, that is the family dynamic that you're mentioning, just in case you didn't know this listener.

[Tracy]

I'm good. Thank you for that research. And I think that it is important to talk about the family dynamic because it's like, we are being given, like, the frontest of front row seats to this family. But as told by Only three of them.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

You know.

[Bobbi]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

So Elizabeth and her sister Mary Catherine were competitive.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Elizabeth, you know, she was first daughter. She was fiercely competitive especially with her brothers as far as know her inner strength. She just really had a very strong spirit.

[Bobbi]

She was competitive with her brothers especially. She's the eldest daughter Taylor.

[Tracy]

I love too because I think about this all the time because as a parent you can only ever imagine the worst case scenario. Like I think the dad takes solace in knowing that Elizabeth has a very strong tough character in a moment like that.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. And like to know that about your kid at 14 is pretty cool.

[Tracy]

Yes, for sure.

[Bobbi]

You know she had a very strong spirit. She played the harp. We see. I love that footage of her at a concert or a recital or something. It's very cool that she, she's just like an incredibly well rounded kid.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

June 6th, she could also be the biggest fucking drip on the planet. And this is still a harrowing story. Oh my God. I'm just saying she could have been the worst. I know but like whatever. She could have been a fucking brat. She's not. But she also could have been anything else.

[Tracy]

She could have been girl that would.

[Bobbi]

Have been okay, you know, like that totally would have been fine. If the family was like she was kind of difficult.

[Tracy]

She sucke. But this still happened to her.

[Bobbi]

This is not what people would have been saying about me at 14. No way.

[Tracy]

You've met my daughter.

[Bobbi]

Do you know what I mean?

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

So June 6th, it's day two. The media is all over it.

[Tracy]

Obviously we should mention a reward of $250,000 has been announced.

[Bobbi]

Now Mary Catherine, her sister is nine years old. She is the only witness. And Mary Catherine is here to tell us about what that was like for her because she's terrified, she's traumatized, she feels guilty.

[Tracy]

Yeah. And I mean, you know, the thing is like she was. And I understand why they kept her away from, from talking to anybody else because they didn't want her to get any information that could possibly interfere with her memory of what happened.

[Bobbi]

There's just so much pressure on her. But they're also skeptical because she's a traumatized nine year old. So they want it every single way they can. You can't have it all cops, which I will get into later. But like Mary Catherine can't win and even as a nine year old she knows that.

[Tracy]

And like nobody tells us anything about like mental health services that were being offered to her. I know, that's what I'm Talking about.

[Bobbi]

Yeah, because we see video of her first interview with police, and she says, quiet. If you scream, I'll shoot you. But if you don't, I won't scream.

[Tracy]

Did his voice sound familiar to you?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

Can you tell me where you heard that before?

[Detective Corden Sparks]

No, I can't.

[Bobbi]

She also says, which is a very big deal, the voice was familiar to her.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

She knew who this person was. And she can't place who it is or where she heard the voice, but she knows she heard it before.

[Tracy]

She's nine years old, and she is going to be the most reliable narrator we've ever met.

[Bobbi]

And guess what?

[Tracy]

Nobody believes and nobody believes her.

[Bobbi]

So the police start with the family, which is what they should do.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Here's the thing. The smart family is enormous. You see a photo of 50 people.

[Tracy]

Mormon families usually are.

[Bobbi]

And, like, there are more little kids than adults. And they. Look, I'm just going to. As a. If I'm an investigator in this situation, they are a big Mormon family with a lot of kids. Based on what we know about, like, Warren Jeffs and the fundamentalists, I'd be interested in the family, too. You should be interested in the family first, anyway. And then you're like, oh, there's 50 of them.

[Tracy]

And we understand that the fundamentalists and the Mormons are not the same thing.

[Bobbi]

That's right.

[Tracy]

But I understand what you're saying.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, of course. But you got. You got to. This looks insane. Like, this looks like an inside job. This looks so like the movie of the week version of a kidnapping that it had to be staged.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

Is what I would be thinking as a cop.

[Bobbi]

And there are two, like, you always start with the people closest. And unfortunately, in this situation, there's about 40 people to question. That's a lot of time. I. I am not defending the cops here because the cops in this case failed Elizabeth, miserably.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

However, at first, I'm like, I'd be interested in all of these people, too, who look exactly like a photo that we covered in our fucking Warren Jeffs coverage.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Like, that's what it looks like.

[Tracy]

Yes, I absolutely agree. And this is where Cody the cop is saying, like, the alarm was inadvertently left off, so that doesn't look good for the family.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

And the window, when I looked at it the first morning, there were no scuff marks on the outside wall. Even if you step up on a chair, you're going to make a scuff mark. I did not see any. My initial assessment was maybe this wasn't.

[Bobbi]

The point of entry.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Maybe it was a staged one.

[Tracy]

If you're going to climb in through the window, there probably would have been scuff marks.

[Bobbi]

Would there have been, though?

[Tracy]

I don't know.

[Bobbi]

I mean, I'm just wondering, like, how messy of a climber are you that there are now? You just. It's like a step.

[Tracy]

It's a first floor window. It's not like you're climbing into the kitch. Yeah, she.

[Bobbi]

It wasn't the bedroom, which I always thought it was.

[Tracy]

I feel like what's not being said is maybe they're working backwards, trying to, like, prove their theory that this is an inside job. So they search the home. They're looking for any indication that harm fell to Elizabeth in the house. Like, is there a body in that house somewhere? And that was when I was like, oh, everyone's reeling from JonBenet like that. That's what these cops are thinking.

[Bobbi]

So they bring in jj. They say, we have a really good bloodhound on the force. We had a lot of confidence in them. And they bring in JJ, and JJ's like, look, Elizabeth is not in house.

[Tracy]

The house, no.

[Bobbi]

He says very clearly, Elizabeth is not here. And JJ follows the scent out of the house through the surrounding woods and eventually loses the scent. And we don't get any information about why or how far away from the house or anything like that. But J.J. did his best.

[Tracy]

They say that it seems like she was, like, taken in a car, but that doesn't really make any sense.

[Bobbi]

And we know eventually. Sorry. That that's not what happened.

[Tracy]

Right.

[Bobbi]

So I don't know what happened here.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

Yeah. So Earn it is an app that lets you access your pay as you earn it. Like you were saying, up to $150 a day with a max of a thousand dollars between paydays.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

Yeah. Just download the Earn an app and add your info. Then you can start accessing your pay as you work and leave an optional tip to help keep the app running for everyone. Any money you access, plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck.

[Tracy]

Yeah. So fam. Do it. Download Earn in today. It's spelled E A R N I N in Google Play or Apple App Store.

[Bobbi]

When you download the earn an app, type in True Crime Obs under Podcast when you sign up. It'll really help the show.

[Tracy]

That's True Crime Obsessed under Podcast Fam.

[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

Available in select states. Terms and restrictions apply. Visit earn in.com for full details.

[Bobbi]

Download Earn in now and take control of your pay because you're the bottom costs. Everyone wants to know if the family did it. And we get these clips of Ed Smart, the dad pleading with the public, asking for help doing the talk show circuit. Like, everything you're, quote, supposed to do.

[Nick]

Ed and Lo was smart.

[Bobbi]

I think initially you felt their grief, but it definitely shifted.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

People would watch Ed on TV when he was talking and they would make statements like, there are no tears when he's crying.

[Nick]

There was a sense of, is he telling us everything?

[Bobbi]

And after two days, everyone's like, he's not sad the way we want him to be sad. I don't like this. Like, there are no answers. So they are just looking at Ed because he's the face of this thing.

[Tracy]

In fairness, I will say, because we've called other people out on it in the past, like, he is crying without tears a lot.

[Bobbi]

I do want to say something because this is so well done because we see Ed on TV in 2002 and he's looking down, and then we cut to him for the doc and he's also looking down. And it's very, very effective because we now, of course, he did not do this.

[Tracy]

Of course. Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And it made me really stop and, like, really sit with what I do for a living. It's so easy to say and, like, have ideas and theories safe in this little booth with zero connection to anything.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And, like, that really made me go, oh, like, explain that more.

[Tracy]

What do you mean?

[Bobbi]

Like, people were just like, I don't like Ed. I don't like the way that looks. That's what we do.

[Tracy]

Oh, yeah.

[Bobbi]

A lot of times with zero connection to anything in some ways. So it made me.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

You.

[Tracy]

And I usually know the ending. I will say, you know, there was just that.

[Bobbi]

The way they did that with, like, him in 2002 on footage, him facing down. And then cut to him today facing down and him looking up. It was very effective.

[Tracy]

Well, they do it again in an.

[Bobbi]

AM Definitely going to slow down on, too. But, like, it just made Me think, like, we all talk a lot of.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Without being connected to anything, and, like, emotions get the best of us and everyone's worried and there's no information. So let's look at the guy who's the face of the. The operation.

[Tracy]

Oh, totally. And I will also say, and this is no slight to her, like, you do it however you want to do. And maybe we're only seeing the footage of the dad because he's in the dock and the mom isn't. But we're not seeing the mom much in front of the camera. Yeah, Right. But the thing is, the dad, because they're looking at him so strongly, and.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

My father said, if you don't calm down, I'm going to commit you. So he took me over to the hospital and put me in the psychiatric ward. And I. I cried that whole night.

[Tracy]

And his own dad has him committed to a psychiatric ward.

[Bobbi]

He has, like, a physical. He can't take it. He says it was horrendous.

[Tracy]

They committed the wrong brother.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

And he's like, I'm already going through. He uses the word horrendous. This horrendous thing. My daughter is missing, and now I'm a suspect. Like, he couldn't handle it. And I don't blame him.

[Tracy]

I think about this all the time. Like, if Daisy were to go missing or Steve or anything like that, I would go to the cops and be like, I'm here with my attorney. I know you have to clear me. What do you to know?

[Bobbi]

Let's get that part time.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

The lawyer imperative.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

So it's day six, and they're, quote, looking into the family, which just means that everyone is taking polygraph tests. That's not investigating.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And today, the reporter today, in the year of 2026, is sitting down saying, is failing a polygraph suspicious? Absolutely. Keep it up. And I'm like, this is not investigating. No, I know there's 50 of them, but you got to do a little bit of work if we're going to do the work.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

That's not investigating. That's not looking into the family. Just giving everyone polygraphs. What are we doing?

[Tracy]

And the other thing, too, that we should say is that the community has totally mobil. Like, everyone is out looking for her, but the longer they look at the family, the fewer people show up to volunteer.

[Bobbi]

Well, that's the thing.

[Tracy]

Everyone is starting to think the family did it. And, like, the brothers aren't helping.

[Bobbi]

So. And I do want to say, I know that they're doing this polygraph in 2002, but the statement in 2026, to be like, oh, that's super suspicious.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

It's also not.

[Tracy]

I know. I know.

[Bobbi]

Tom is not helping anything at all. He's at.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Bobbi]

He's very jittery. He's described as being a little bit on the edge of things and always getting into trouble.

[Tracy]

He's just, like, on all these TV shows, just like, making everything worse.

[Bobbi]

For whatever reason, they just keep putting him in front of cameras and handing him a microphone. And he's repeatedly said, like, get him away from the cameras. Why does. Why is he even sitting down for a televised interview?

[Tracy]

I said, not since Amanda Knox have we wanted to say, sit down and be quiet.

[Bobbi]

He. On cnn.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Says the person who did this. These are all quotes. I read the transcript. I will. It's right there for you to see.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And they play it.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

I believe that this person is not a bad person at all.

[Bobbi]

And just.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

And our family has felt strongly for a while, and there's been a comfort here for a while that this is just somebody who actually likes Elizabeth.

[Tracy]

We all have issues.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

If you've anybody who's taken. This is a wonderful story in a.

[Bobbi]

Lot of ways, he thinks it's a wonderful story because it is about foremost, a beautiful little angelic girl. Everybody has issues. Real rough day for the last, like, trauma. Everyone handles trauma differently. Crowd.

[Tracy]

It's so wild because I was watching that being like, wait, like, does he know more?

[Bobbi]

And I have to say, you know, when I was like, wait, when did he do this? Where was he? Like, how did this not blow up bigger? He said this to Nancy Grace, who was sitting in for Larry King. How he didn't become her Scott Peterson of the week. I don't understand.

[Tracy]

Yeah. Like, it's wild because, like, as I was watching that, I was like, if I'm. If I'm the community, if I'm the press, I definitely would have thought this was the guy.

[Bobbi]

And maybe they did. I mean, we only have 90 minutes.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

So who knows? But it is. It is incredibly. And you're like, why? What is he trying to say here? What is he saying?

[Tracy]

And he does fail the polygraph, but, like, he does. Like, he's here now. He seems to have gotten himself together in some way because he's like, look, back then, I hadn't slept in five days. I was delirious. I was hearing voices. I'm saying all of that is fucking true, but shut up.

[Bobbi]

His wife said to him, after that interview, she said, you fucked the family.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

Direct quote, yes. So he knows. He knew then he knows now. I understand. Like, trauma does. That was a throwaway joke. Like, trauma does, like, manifest differently in everyone. But it's kind of a bad day for people being, like, he said what?

[Tracy]

I know.

[Bobbi]

Beautiful. And like, it sounds not great, Bob.

[Tracy]

It sounds crazy. The crime scene looks staged.

[Nick]

The.

[Tracy]

The uncle is crazy. It all is awful.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

But Officer Cody tells us there are alibis checked out. And with all of the computers, we'd see emails that we'd looked at. We did not find any. Anything suspicious.

[Tracy]

There's no evidence anywhere that the family was ever involved. And of course we know that they weren't.

[Bobbi]

And the family's like, okay, great. Thanks for wasting everyone's time and making people not think they had to search for her because we had her buried in the basement. So now we're wasting time and attention is waning. And, like, now what are we gonna do? Yeah, because like, the dad says, like, they didn't realize the impact they had by doing that, by focusing on us. And I'm like, right, we'll get your brother off television number one.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Right.

[Tracy]

It's also like, the longer the person is missing, the way less likely it is. You're gonn. Like, why can't we be doing both at the same time?

[Bobbi]

I don't understand.

[Tracy]

You know, I don't know.

[Bobbi]

So it's day nine. Mary Catherine, the sister, who's nine years old, is essentially in isolation because they didn't want her talking to anyone that could possibly influence her memory. And I'm like, right, but she's nine and she's traumatized, and she also needs help.

[Tracy]

Like, tell me that her parents are with her. You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

Right. Like, how much of her.

[Tracy]

Like, in a room somewhere.

[Bobbi]

Like, what is going on here? Because I don't know. We'll get into more of this later, but now we have to talk about Richard Reese, who is a suspect that the cops are insisting did this.

[Tracy]

So Richard Reese was a guy who weirdly looks a little like Christina Ricci. Like, I'm like, are they. Is that his uncle? But he was a contractor who worked at the. At the family house.

[Bobbi]

And they tell us that there was a, quote, conflict with Ed Smart about money. We don't get any further details about that.

[Tracy]

The only other details we do get is that when they searched Richie's house, they found some of the mom's jewelry. I was like, damn, Richie.

[Bobbi]

Right? So that's like, kind of a That's like, okay, yeah, he did work on the house a year ago and but like they quote dragged this guy in their words.

[Tracy]

I just wanted to say I love this cop that's doing this interrogate. When was the last time you were in the house?

[Bobbi]

Well, the pure, he's like a year ago. The pure disdain on both sides is palpable because this guy is like yelling back at them. He's like, I didn't do this. And so like Richard Reese, he's a.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Quote, Richard Rey was a violent felon that he had actually shot one of my friends on the police force in a pharmacy robbery. I didn't have the slightest clue that Richard was a fan felon. He had come recommended from the church employment center.

[Tracy]

So I was shocked.

[Bobbi]

He was recommended to them through their, the Mormon Church's employment center.

[Tracy]

Now like, listen, I have a friend who used to run a company where he would place ex convicts. I wonder the most amazing thing in the world but like is the church employment center doing background checks on people that they're sending to homes full of children? It seems like not.

[Bobbi]

It seems like not.

[Tracy]

So Ed hires this guy re see, gives the guy a car for the amount of work that he's going to be doing for, for them. And the cops determined that like a lot of miles had been put on that car that Ed gave him on the night or the morning after Elizabeth went missing. Like to the cops, this is kind of the nail in the coffin. Like he put Elizabeth in the car, he took her somewhere and he's not telling anybody where she is.

[Bobbi]

Right. So Richard Reese refuses to give the cops any information about where he was or why he was there or anything. Like they don't have any evidence on.

[Tracy]

Him and also where he was for the 12 hours the night that Elizabeth was went missing.

[Bobbi]

But Mary Catherine says it's not him.

[Nick]

I had been kept away from watching the news, but one day I saw.

[Bobbi]

A report on the TV about possible suspects and a picture of Richard Reece came up. He done a lot of work around the house. He had always been very nice and I just knew it wasn't Richard Reece that night and my bedroom. And she saw a report about Richard Rey and she's like, that's not him.

[Tracy]

No. And the thing is like this is what broke my heart for her. One of many things she describes in painstaking detail that she'd been kept in isolation for weeks and months not talking to anybody so that they would. So that she would have a clear mind of who it was and was not, she tells the cops it was not him. And they don't believe her, they don't listen to her. So they are torturing her so that they can, she can give them information, but when they don't like the information she's giving, they discount it.

[Bobbi]

You can't do that. You can't have it both ways. She needs help and guess what? Everything she's telling you is right. And you're just ignoring her. She's very confident. She's not saying, I think it's not like they asked her, is this him? She saw it independently and said, that's not him.

[Tracy]

Right. Yeah. So July 24, seven weeks after the kidnapping, somebody tries to break into the home of Elizabeth's aunt and uncle. The screen was cut in the bedroom of Elizabeth's 18 year old cousin. I guess. I don't know if the person came. We don't get any other information about this other than that that happened.

[Bobbi]

And there were chairs placed outside the window just like Elizabeth's house. And the, that chair thing wasn't made public.

[Tracy]

Right.

[Bobbi]

So it wasn't a copycat thing or a prank.

[Tracy]

And the thing is Recy was in prison during this time. And so like, what's going on here is that the smart family does not think Recy is the guy. The cops are determined to say that Recy is the guy.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

And they're trying to say, but like it happened again in another home in our family, the guy who you think did it couldn't have done it.

[Bobbi]

And Mary Catherine's telling you he didn't do it.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

And so they kind of like torture this guy and they're so desperate.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

So we brought him and his lawyer in and told him, if you will tell us where you were and what you did with the Jeep, if it's anything except homicide or kidnapping, we'll offer you immunity from prosecution.

[Tracy]

The cops are going around every which way. No matter what you did, you're not going to be in trouble unless it's murder. You know what I mean? Like this guy did something fucking terrible.

[Bobbi]

And we don't have, I do have to say, like any confirmation that the steal happened because his lawyer's not here and Richard Reese dropped dead after two days in custody, had an aneurysm. So some people are like, is that the stress of being like beaten down when, I don't know, we'll never know what he was up to. And part of me wishes that his lawyer would tell us. I know they can't. I know why they can't I agree with why they can't, but there is part of me that's like, I just wish we knew what he did.

[Tracy]

I mean, it's really crazy. Like it has to be awful because otherwise he would have told them because he would have gotten immunity for whatever it was.

[Bobbi]

Well, he didn't get that deal yet because he's dead. But no, they were offering the deal to him.

[Tracy]

They offered the deal and he. And he was considering it.

[Bobbi]

I mean, it's all weird. They're hyper focus on this Richard Reese guy when there's no evidence that he did anything. And their only witness that they have in isolation is screaming that he didn't do it.

[Tracy]

And even after he dies, the cops are kind of like, well, I guess we'll never get Elizabeth's kidnapper because he just died. Like, they will not give up the fact that they think this guy's the guy.

[Bobbi]

It's one of the many ways they failed Elizabeth.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

And Richard Reese, kind of.

[Tracy]

And Mary Katherine.

[Bobbi]

And Mary Katherine.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

Yeah. And like, I know that supplements like trusting them. It really matters because you're taking them all the time, you're taking them every day. And choosing the right one can be kind of confusing. So that's why we trust Momentous because they are the high trust brand in a low trust category. And they have the momentous standard.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

Yeah. And if it doesn't meet their standard, the product never hits the shelves.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

Head to live momentous.com and use promo code TCO for up to 35% off your first Order.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

You know, and I love how they like instantly Go. No contact. Yeah, I appreciate that.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

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[Tracy]

Home Chef is back. Look, I've got stuff to say, but first let me tell you, people really love it. Home Chef is rated number one by users of other meal kits for quality, convenience, value, taste, and recipe ease.

[Bobbi]

Well, tell me your story.

[Tracy]

So look, they have all different ways you can do this. Like you can get the kind that you chop and cook. You can get the oven ready, you can get the microwave stuff. I have switched our entire thing to oven ready.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Stop.

[Tracy]

It comes. We get three a week. It comes. The food is amazing. You can get. We do high protein and we do under 625 calories per serving.

[Bobbi]

It's a nice way to split the diff. You're not fully cooking, but you're throwing it in the oven. The house smells nice.

[Tracy]

That's exactly it. That's exactly because we never wanna cook. You put all the stuff in the little dish that they give you, you put it in the oven, 30 minutes later your dinner is ready. No work. And it feels like a home cooked meal.

[Bobbi]

It's a half cook.

[Tracy]

It's a half cook.

[Bobbi]

We love it.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Bobbi]

So easy. But also, if you wanna actually, you know, the 30 minute meals like that they have. Cause sometimes, I don't know, it could be kind of meditative, like you wanna chop the onion.

[Tracy]

Some people love that.

[Bobbi]

But when you don't, they have options for that too.

[Tracy]

Totally. And you saved so much money. Fam. Home Chef customers are saving an average of $86 per month on groceries. Plus you don't have to go to the grocery store.

[Bobbi]

30 meal options each week.

[Tracy]

Yes. I could not choose. It's become my responsibility in my family and I. There's so many good options. I honestly can't choose.

[Bobbi]

It's a good problem to have.

[Tracy]

It's true. So, fam. For a limited time, Home Chef is offering our listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box, plus free dessert for life. Go to homechef.com TCO that's home chef.com.

[Bobbi]

TCO for 50% off your first box and a free dessert for life.

[Tracy]

Home chef.com TCO must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. But I'm telling you, you want to because it is the best part of your week.

[Bobbi]

There you go.

[Tracy]

Thank you.

[Bobbi]

Exactly. So we get this, like, really heartbreaking moment with Ed Smart saying that, like.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

I had this dream that Elizabeth came walking back into our life. Oh, my God.

[Tracy]

This is, this is, this is over.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

She's here and she's okay.

[Bobbi]

He just knew in his bones that Elizabeth would always come home. He would have dreams about it where, like, she would just appear and it would all be over. Like. Like, as quickly as it started, it would just all be over because she's home.

[Tracy]

I will say there's so many parts of this documentary were hard for me to watch, but, like, that dealing with, like, the dad's grief is just really hard to watch him experience. It's awful, you know? But can we go drop some acid with Jared Parkinson?

[Bobbi]

He's going to tell us about the counterculture in Salt Lake City.

[Tracy]

Now, this is where I have all these notes. Like, this is true. Like, I've been to parties in Salt Lake City. I've been to bars. Like, like. Because when you think about Salt Lake, you think of it as, like, a dry town where, like, it's all religious.

[Bobbi]

And this, like, very oppressive Mormon religion.

[Tracy]

Y.

[Bobbi]

And like, they have these underground dance parties and house parties with, like, mushroom tea girl. I'm like, acid in 2002. Okay.

[Tracy]

I know.

[Bobbi]

So he's bartending at one of these house parties.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And a man walks in with, quote, two ladies. And I'm like, very liberal use of that word.

[Tracy]

It's crazy. These women are dressed in fully in white gowns. Their faces are covered with scarves, except for their eyes. And he says the young lady had bluish gray eyes. So it's like clearly two adults and a younger person.

[Bobbi]

Right? Quick cut to Mary Catherine.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And she's like, it's been four months. She's not sleeping. She's racking her brain trying to remember who did this. And one night she's trying to, like, get herself to fall asleep. She's reading the Guinness Book of World Records just to, like, lull herself to sleep.

[Tracy]

God, that's like, I. I just love. What an interesting detail.

[Bobbi]

I know.

[Tracy]

What a.

[Bobbi]

Like, just like anything. Anything. Like manuals to appliances. I'm sure. Like anything.

[Tracy]

How does that VCR work, dad?

[Bobbi]

Like, the poor thing. To, like, get her mind off it and, like, try to get some rest. Cause, like, it's not. Whatever. So she's flipping through the pages and she's trying to fall asleep. And suddenly, and for some random reason, The name popped into my head.

[Nick]

And I knew immediately that's who was in my bedroom. June 2002, that's the man who kidnapped Elizabeth.

[Bobbi]

This name just pops into her head. It's like she was meditating, almost reading the book. And this name pops into her head and she goes, I knew immediately. That's who was in my bedroom. Now we're back to Jared at the party.

[Tracy]

We don't get the name yet. We're back to dropping acid with Jared at the party. But he says, like, look, Jared is trying to say these people, these like the three robed hooded people looked insane, but it was a time of inclusion, man.

[Bobbi]

Well, here's.

[Tracy]

Come on in and party with us.

[Bobbi]

It's not that uncommon because it was a way to rebel against the church is what he's saying. Because that's like your temple clothes. So if you know, like all the like stuff that goes on in the temple, you're like, not supposed to talk about. But these are the outfits.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bobbi]

This is what they're dressed as. So he's like, oh, like, cool party bra. Like, let's rebel.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

You know what I mean? So he's like, it wasn't that crazy to see people dressed in like temple gowns. Garb.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

At these parties.

[Tracy]

They. They invite them in, like, open arms. He's offering them drinks. The fucking guys. Like, I can have a drink, but they can't.

[Bobbi]

And Jared turns to the younger one and he's like, what's with this clown? Like, why is he so controlling?

[Tracy]

Why are you here with him? And then the older, like the lady of the three says, you can't talk.

[Bobbi]

To her, like, shuts it down immediately. And Jared's like, whatever, you're all killing my buzz. And he goes back to the party.

[Tracy]

Exactly.

[Bobbi]

So the younger. I want to slow down on this.

[Tracy]

This is the moment that, like, took my breath away.

[Bobbi]

The younger lady. Younger lady, yeah. Was Elizabeth smart. She's a 14 year old girl. After the kidnapping, right as Jared is telling us, they show a photo and it's two disgusting looking men and a girl all in white and her face is covered and you just see her eyes. I stood up and said out loud to. Nope. Fiona.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

I said, oh, my God, that's her.

[Tracy]

Yes. And it's from that party.

[Bobbi]

And in the Elizabeth Smart reveal in the moment is insane. It's unbelievable because the doc zooms in on a girl wearing a white scarf. I'm positive it's not her. They wouldn't make her relive that trauma putting the scarf on her. But they. You can only see her eyes and they zoom. Oh, my God. They zoom in on her eyes and she closes them and when she opens them, it's Elizabeth Smart.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And I lost me too.

[Tracy]

I mean, I really, like, I had like a. Yeah. Like. And even like, someday somebody will watch this documentary and not know the Elizabeth Smart story and not know she's alive. And that will be even more effective then. But knowing that she was alive, knowing we were going to hear from her eventually, it is still, like, it is incredibly effective. Very well, like, documentaries don't take time to do shit like that anymore.

[Bobbi]

No. That's why I really loved this one, because it's like this. We're kind of getting back to. It's like a. It's a quality, not quantity situation.

[Tracy]

And that's what, like, that's what I was also saying to myself today. The harder it is to watch, the better it is.

[Bobbi]

And also, where did they get that picture? I know who had the picture.

[Tracy]

I know I find Jared. You know, I feel like I've seen that picture before.

[Bobbi]

So now we're with Elizabeth Smart, and we're going to rewind all the way back to day one and Elizabeth Smart is going to tell us her story.

[Tracy]

Yeah. So it's June 5th. You know, it's the night of the abduction.

[Nick]

She said, going into the summer of 2002, I was 14 years old. I was so excited to leave junior high. In the past, just thinking back, it's a lot of happy, happy memories, happy feelings.

[Tracy]

She's in a really good, fun place in her life.

[Bobbi]

It was a really happy time for her.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And then she says, like, this man came in, held a knife to her neck. Everything that Mary Katherine said, he said. Elizabeth is now confirming. Don't make a sound. Come with me.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

He leads her out of the house through the backyard.

[Tracy]

She has this moment where she was like. I was just kept thinking my parents were gonna wake up, but nobod, he came. Like, that is.

[Bobbi]

That's not the first time she'll say something like that.

[Tracy]

No, I know. You know, I. I just. Just this last week, we started letting daisy Stay up 15 minutes after we go to bed.

[Bobbi]

And tell me more about that.

[Tracy]

So we are very early to bed people at our house. We are up very early. We go to bed very early. We knew this moment was going to come, that, like, eventually there was going to come the time that Daisy was going to stay up later than us. Right. We're not quite there yet. Like, we're usually in bed by like 8:15, 8:30, with, like a bedtime of 9 o'.

[Bobbi]

Clock.

[Tracy]

Daisy's bedtime is 9. So it usually matches up. But last couple of days, I've been going to bed at like, 8. Like, going to bed at 8:15. We're also on this thing where, like, Daisy only has a certain amount of time on the iPad every day. So, like, when it runs out, it turns off. She saves 10 minutes so that she can have 10 minutes on the iPad after we go to. That's kind of the ritual that we're working on.

[Bobbi]

Got it.

[Tracy]

And so we go to bed. And like, so she's got 10 minutes on the iPad, then she puts herself to sleep, which is a brand new thing in our house.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Tracy]

But it's scary.

[Bobbi]

What do you mean?

[Tracy]

Well, it's just scary in a couple of ways. Like, Daisy feels really passionate about being the one to lock the door. Like, that's one of her jobs. So she's gotta lock the door before we go to bed. So she doesn't do it. The door's not locked, you know, and like. And also, like, you know, is this the night she walks out the door to, like, go say hi to the doorman and then walks outside? And we never see it. Like, it's just that little bit of, like, when you're the parent and you go to bed before your kids, you know, your kids are in bed, you know, and so when that is starting to change, it just brings all this up. And it's like, in this moment with Elizabeth, I couldn't stop thinking about how her dad will never forgive himself for being asleep in this moment as she's being walked past the bedroom by a stranger who broke in through a screen in the window. Because that. That's the fear this. This documentary is like. So it does such an effective job of showing a family's absolute worst fear coming true.

[Bobbi]

Right. Well, Daisy's. She's gonna be 12, right?

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

So is this a time where you would say, like, but you have to, like, if you do nothing else.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

You have to lock the door.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Like, she will get. She's 12 years old.

[Tracy]

Yeah. I usually will, like, wake up an hour after I go to sleep to, like, so go check or whatever.

[Bobbi]

And she's always done it.

[Tracy]

It's always been done. She takes. Honestly, Daisy takes a lot of pride in doing her chores. So, like, she really does it great. But it's scary. It's like. I mean, it's terrifying. So terrifying. And it. And it's like, I can't imagine being ed smart in this moment where, like, you know, your other daughter wakes you up and your kid actually is gone.

[Bobbi]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

You know, it's terrifying. Sorry. That'll be my last derailment of, like, going through this with him. It's awful. So Elizabeth describes being taken out into the backyard and into the wood. And like, this is. You know, before she started talking, there was a moment I described earlier where we see them setting up for her interview. And she's sitting there, oh, this is gonna make me emotional. And the producer says, shall we start? And she goes, yeah, yeah. And she's not worried about it. No, you know she's not, because she is giving this story to us so generously, you know. Yeah.

[Bobbi]

On her terms.

[Tracy]

On her terms. And she says, I asked him if.

[Nick]

He was gonna rape and kill me because I thought that must be be what he's going to do. Then I wanted him to do it as close as he could to my house so that my parents could find me. And he just looked at me and he said, I'm not going to rape and kill you yet.

[Tracy]

He says, I'm not going to rape and kill you yet.

[Bobbi]

So they finally get to where he's taking her, and it's this tent in the middle of the woods. And this piece of shit woman who goes by Hephzibah appears. Not her real name. Fucking Hefzibah.

[Tracy]

It's so, so awful.

[Bobbi]

And she hugs Elizabeth. She takes her shoes off and starts washing Elizabeth's feet, and she tries to take Elizabeth's pajamas off. And when Elizabeth is like, whoa, I don't think so. She goes, well, either I'm doing it, or he's gonna come in and rip them off. You.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

This woman is culpable. She's an abuser. Oh, she is horrifying.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Bobbi]

Her own kids went on Oprah and told the whole fucking story.

[Tracy]

They did.

[Bobbi]

We'll get into it.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Bobbi]

So I'm not gonna do the. Like. She must be an abused woman. She has been a fucking abusive nightmare her entire.

[Tracy]

I'll give you this one.

[Bobbi]

Like, enough.

[Tracy]

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[Bobbi]

I got to tell you, I was on it the other day, and in the dashboard, they alert you. They're like, this bill is a little high. You want us to go in and negotiate it for you? And I was like, oh, yeah. I didn't even occur to me to do that for that particular bill. But they say it on the dashboard.

[Tracy]

I got another email the other day, like, oh, high dollar amount transferred from your bank account. This look unusual. Is this right? Like, they are on it. They've got A tracker on my car girl.

[Bobbi]

I don't know. We do not subscribe. But also like not just alerting you to the bad things. It's just a good way to see all of your money and be like, oh, I love using this thing. I'm going to continue to. Or oh, actually I don't really use that. I could use that $60 or whatever it is.

[Tracy]

And that dashboard is amazing because it consolidates your checking, savings, loans and investments into a single dashboard and gives you a clear view of your financial picture. Like, for somebody like me, I really need to see it all in one place.

[Bobbi]

Exactly. So it's a good place to like catch red flags and so just work towards your goals and saving money for any number of big things you might want to do in your life.

[Tracy]

Who doesn't need more help with that?

[Bobbi]

I do.

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

I was on it yesterday.

[Tracy]

I know.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

True.

[Bobbi]

This is what I'm talking about.

[Tracy]

So, fam, let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster.

[Bobbi]

[e-mail] obsessed that's RocketMoney.com obsessed RocketMoney.com obsessed Save that money. This woman burns everything that Elizabeth is wearing and gives Elizabeth the same kind of robe that she's wearing. So they look exactly alike.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

As much as a 14 year old old can look like a piece of evil spawn of Satan.

[Tracy]

This part is just so hard to talk about. Like she says, he comes into the tent, does that thing. I hereby seal you as my wife, blah, blah, blah.

[Bobbi]

Big Mormon thing being sealed, you know.

[Nick]

I hereby seal you to me as my wife before God and his angels as my witnesses. At that point, I screamed out no. And he looked at me and he said, if you ever scream out like that again, I, I will kill you. If it'll help you to not scream out, I can duct tape your mouth shut.

[Tracy]

I can put duct tape over your mouth to keep it shut.

[Bobbi]

The abuse is immediate and, and ongoing.

[Tracy]

Every hour for the next five months.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. And he, you know, Elizabeth describes the first time he rapes her. It was terrifying and painful and horrible. And he walks away with this fucking smirk on his face and just like leaves her there in the dirt. And, and the next day she wakes up to chains being put on her.

[Tracy]

And she's like, I'm not going to run away. You don't have to do that. He says, I know you're not going to run away. I'm just taking temptation out of your reach.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

My mind is, is just a swirl of like, you Know the, the place I go where, like, kids have no power and men being awful and like.

[Bobbi]

And women being submissive to men in patriarchal religions, I think cannot be ignored here.

[Tracy]

Absolutely.

[Bobbi]

Of course, of course. She's not gonna. First of all, a 14 year old when you're a knife to her neck. Like, I get it. But, like, the patriarchal religion cannot be ignored in this situation because when she eventually, like, gets him to do something for her, she does. Right out of the Mormon submissive woman playbook.

[Tracy]

Yes, yes.

[Bobbi]

So she says he looks like Rasputin. Like stern, cold face, long hair, disgusting beard and just, like overgrown. Like, he's a dirty, disgusting, evil piece of shit.

[Tracy]

Absolutely fucking disgusting.

[Bobbi]

And he says, you know, and by.

[Tracy]

The way, I just want to. To interrupt and say, this man, we are told does not suffer from mental illness. This is not a man who's going through something. This is an evil, evil person.

[Bobbi]

The two of them.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

So his name is Emmanuel David, Isaiah. Supposedly I name in quotes, and she is Hefzibah Elada, Isaiah, whatever. They have their own set of scriptures. They're pieces of shit.

[Tracy]

The absolute, absolute scum of the earth.

[Bobbi]

And so God has told them they have to kidnap seven young girls. And Elizabeth Smart was the first. Her sister Mary Catherine's on the list. Her cousin Olivia is on the list.

[Tracy]

I just love that, like, Elizabeth doesn't say it, but you can see in her eyes. She's like, over my dead, fudgeing body. Is my sister on your list? Are you talking about?

[Bobbi]

But the cousin?

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

With this, the chair outside the door. Like, she was on the list too.

[Tracy]

She was 18. That stood out to me.

[Bobbi]

Yeah, I, you know, I think they are hoping that these young, devout Mormon girls will be submissive like they're taught to be their whole lives. Now, Elizabeth says something here again. I know I'm being hard on the Mormon faith here, but I don't see any other way to be.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Because she says all she knew about sex was to not have it before marriage.

[Nick]

But no one had discussed with me the difference between, like, consensual sex, intimacy versus rape. I felt a lot of shame and I felt like I was filthy. I thought if my family knew what had happened to me, would they still want me back? Maybe it would be better if nobody ever found me.

[Bobbi]

She wasn't taught about rape or consent or intimacy or love. Like, not even the good stuff.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Not the bad stuff, not the good. Just don't have it before Marri. Or else.

[Tracy]

Yeah. I just want to say, as like the token parent. Like, I understand that those conversations are very hard and that, like, 14 feels like maybe it's not the right age to yet talk to somebody about rape. Like, that is a very scary thing to navigate. But I just wanted to say that about the rape part of that conversation.

[Bobbi]

Right. But if you can't have, like, the sex talk with your kids, you probably shouldn't be having kids.

[Tracy]

And that's not what I'm saying.

[Bobbi]

Right.

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

Right? I hear you.

[Tracy]

Yeah. I mean, I think that we learn time and time and time again that, like, when you shield kids from, like, the truths they need to know, they always suffer.

[Bobbi]

And making something about science and your body evil.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Is so dangerous because they're not talking anything about sex. Not even, like, your peer. Like, nothing. So, like, for her to be now going through this daily sexual assault, she's feeling like her family, she's worthless like her. Like, she's in trouble now.

[Tracy]

Yes. Like she says, at some point, like her family right here, she says her family wouldn't even want her back.

[Bobbi]

Maybe it's better if they don't find me.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

If you can't have a normal sex talk with your kids, you shouldn't be having children. That's number one. And if the ability belief system is going to shame people for abuse before the abuse even happens, that's disgusting in my book.

[Tracy]

I agree. And I was thinking, too, and I have absolutely no information on this, so I don't want to speculate, but it just occurred to me, were the smarts, like, the dad even more devout because he was gay and not, like, being honest about who he was?

[Bobbi]

I don't know if I was a. If I was a betting man.

[Tracy]

Yeah, I was a betting gal.

[Bobbi]

I'd think a little bit. I think a lot of that has to do with your own. When you're so devout, in some ways, in ways that can be damaged.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

I think it's because you're repressing something, perhaps. Maybe there's a percentage of people where that would be the case.

[Tracy]

I agree.

[Bobbi]

So it's day eight. This guy is bringing back Elizabeth's own missing posters to the mountain tent and.

[Tracy]

Saying, the whole of Salt Lake is looking for you, but they will never find you because I have you.

[Bobbi]

And there's this awful story where I was like, I need a break.

[Nick]

I know one day I remember just all of a sudden, very faintly hearing my name. Emmanuel took me inside the tent, pulled out his knife. If anyone comes into this camp, this is the Knife I'm gonna use to kill them and it'll be your fault.

[Tracy]

This is the knife I'm gonna kill them with, and it will be your fault.

[Bobbi]

And also, anything she does quote wrong in his and her crazy fucking mind, these two, she's being punished by being.

[Tracy]

Raped and food withheld.

[Bobbi]

And food withheld. So she's being starved, she's being sleep deprived, she's being raped. And the entire time she's thinking that she's in trou trouble for it. So when you're a child and you're abused and manipulated like this, it's going to be hard to say, oh, is there a cop around? I'm just going to start screaming right now. Elizabeth, specifically, on top of that, she thinks she's in trouble because she's been told that if this happens, you are worthless.

[Tracy]

Yeah, it's so interesting hearing it from her mouth because she never says this, but like, you get this sense from her that she had somewhere in her soul that she was like, fuck this guy. I'm gonna survive this. I'm gonna get away from this guy.

[Bobbi]

And I think because she talks about, like, the power and humiliation, she says every day he'd find a way to humiliate her. Like walking her like a dog on a leash and like, forcing her to drink until she threw up. And like, all this horrible, horrible shit. And the piece of shit woman by his side is encouraging every step of the abuse, every bit of it.

[Tracy]

Elizabeth is saying that after he would rape her, he would pray for 45 minutes, use God to justify what he did. It's just so. It's just.

[Bobbi]

Yes, but like, to your point, like, she is keeping herself motivated to survive by thinking that she has this other life that she really wants to get back to, even though she's scared that she'll be rejected for what is happening to her against her will.

[Tracy]

And I think that somewhere in there too, she's like, no way are you fucking taking my sister.

[Bobbi]

Right? You know, well, speaking of Mary Catherine, let's go back. It's October 12th. Elizabeth has been missing for four months. We're back to the moment where she realized the name of who did this.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Lois and I had gone out for the evening, and when we got home, Mary came. Catherine said, I think I know who it is. And she said, it was Emmanuel. And I went, emmanuel, I know who did this.

[Bobbi]

It was that fucking creep Emmanuel. Remember, Elizabeth just told us the name of the man abusing her is Emmanuel Daveed Isaiah.

[Tracy]

Now we get this crazy story.

[Bobbi]

I'm in me, I'm like, how does. How do they know him?

[Tracy]

I know.

[Bobbi]

How does Elizabeth. How does Mary Catherine know this name?

[Tracy]

Well, Ed, the dad, tells us the story. And this is a story about the mom. The mom is not here.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Right.

[Tracy]

But the previous year, says, Ed, Lois had gone downtown, saw an unhoused person, quote, preaching the good word.

[Bobbi]

So he's also a Mormon?

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

He worked in the temple.

[Tracy]

Yeah. Lois told. Like, Lois sees this guy preaching the good word, like, on the street somewhere, and she goes up to him and says, if you need work, here's my husband's card.

[Bobbi]

I understand wanting to do a nice thing for somebody. I totally get it. I just don't know if inviting a street preacher into your home with six children is the way to do it.

[Tracy]

And, like, I understand that you have to hire workers or whatever. Like, I understand that, like, people need to come in and out of your home. I'm not. Like, I have people come in and out of my house. I understand that. But this guy ended up, like, kidnapping and raping and almost killing Elizabeth Smart. So, like, can we learn a lesson here?

[Bobbi]

So this guy calls, like, takes Lois up on it and calls Ed Smart, and he does work on the house. So he knew the house?

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

He knew Elizabeth, he knew Mary Catherine, and Mary Catherine knew him because she was right. And she described him and this whole situation perfectly.

[Tracy]

Yeah. And the police are like, they're not buying it. They're like.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

I mean, I was not convinced. Emmanuel had not appeared on any of the lists of people we were investigating. He was there for about three hours one day, and then didn't even come back to get paid. But we began to follow it up.

[Tracy]

This guy was only there for a couple hours. He never even came back to get paid. Now, here's my thing. I feel like that makes Mary Catherine's account more credible because she barely remembers him.

[Bobbi]

They say her memory, quite frankly, came under disbelief by the investigators. I'm like, well, that, quite frankly, makes me want to scream, because either she's valuable to you or not. And now I'm spitting everywhere I know. Is she valuable to you or not?

[Tracy]

And also, if you're not gonna listen to her, can you stop torturing her? But also, the fact that it took her that long to remember makes it seem like somebody who was just there briefly. Doesn't that add to the credibility of her story?

[Bobbi]

Right. And Richard Reese clearly didn't do it. So, like, we gotta look at somebody else. And this guy is like. Like, a known crazy. He's like, the crazy guy downtown. Everybody knew him in town, right? He was. Oh, there he goes again. And so, like, this is a connection here. She has a name.

[Tracy]

Well, it gets worse because they bring in a sketch artist, they make a sketch, and the family wants to release a sketch to the public. The cops say no because they're.

[Bobbi]

They're following up on this lead almost begrudgingly. The vibe from the cops then and today is like, well, we didn't have anything else to do, so.

[Tracy]

And I'm like, reese does died.

[Bobbi]

So she. Mary Catherine is right every step of the way. You can't. Every time she says something, you don't take her seriously. You can't have it both ways.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

It's impossible.

[Tracy]

Yes, I agree. So the cops refused to release the sketch.

[Bobbi]

They don't want to, quote, scare him away.

[Tracy]

We're back with Elizabeth, who says that Emmanuel and Hepzaba got into a huge fight because he keeps going into town and having, like, pizza and not bringing food back for them.

[Bobbi]

So they end up going into Salt Lake, which is great for Elizabeth.

[Tracy]

It's great. But, like, then she gives us this. This explanation of, like, being back in Salt Lake for the first time since she was kidnapped. It's been months. And she's like, I. This place. This place should feel safe to me. But she's like. It was like looking at it through somebody else's body.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. And she also says. She goes, you know, she's in the white robe. Her face is covered. She only has her eyes to communicate with. And she says, honestly, we looked crazy. Like, I probably wouldn't stop and look at us for too long because they're.

[Tracy]

As. They're coming down the mountain. Joggers are going by them and not stopping, which is like, of course. That makes total sense.

[Bobbi]

She's like, I totally get it. We looked crazy.

[Tracy]

So they go to the library to look up maps or whatever, and we. Like, this is just. I 100% understand why Elizabeth did what she did, but just watching it, your heart just breaks.

[Bobbi]

This cop. Okay.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

They're approached by a cop because he wants to ask questions about Elizabeth. Smart.

[Tracy]

Remember, they're fully covered in the robes and the scarves, and, like, they. The cop can't see what the women.

[Bobbi]

Look like, and so he wants to see their full faces.

[Nick]

I just need to make sure that this girl is not this girl that we're looking for. Can I see her face? Emmanuel was like, I'm sorry, but no. Like, that would be against our faith. That would be against our religion.

[Bobbi]

This piece of shit loser hides behind religious freedom, uses it for evil. And it works because he tells the cop, this is against my religion. Only her future husband and me, her father, can see her face. But also, hey, cop, could you demand to see some id? Could you say, all right, sue me, good luck suing me, and rip that thing off. When everyone's looking for Elizabeth. Smart. Like, do what she would do if they weren't white.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Could you treat them like they weren't white and maybe ask a question when she, like, are you kidding?

[Tracy]

I. I totally am with you. But I also wonder, like, what you were saying, like, are there just a bunch of people who look like this wandering around Salt Lake? You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

I don't know.

[Tracy]

Like, does it get to a point where you're just so tired of seeing people? You know, like.

[Bobbi]

And it's been four. She's missing for four months. The entire.

[Tracy]

So I love you. I've spent a lot of time. This is no aspersion against Salt Lake, but I'm just wondering, like, if there's a lot of people. Because otherwise that the cops should be in prison.

[Bobbi]

Like, I don't understand why. It was just like, well, okay, yeah, I know. Dare him to sue you.

[Tracy]

Right?

[Bobbi]

Treat him. If they weren't white, what would happen? What would you do if it was like a Muslim family?

[Tracy]

Oh, God, do that.

[Bobbi]

So. But regardless, nothing happens. So nothing happens. They're like, okay, like, have a great time looking at your maps, everybody. But this scares the piece of shit loser. Because SLC is too hot now. Salt Lake City's too hot.

[Tracy]

Yeah. They drag them back up into the mountains and, you know, and Elizabeth is thinking like. Like, Emmanuel is very anxious and she's like, that was maybe my one shot. Like, am I never going to see my.

[Bobbi]

She knows it's bad because she's like, we're back in the mountains. He's probably never going to go back to Salt Lake City again. And I'm just going to be taken further away from my family.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

And so it's six months, and everyone but the family is starting to give up. And these ass holes in church with an earshot and smarter, like, can you believe he still thinks she's alive? Can we not? Can we not in church, in earshot of Ed.

[Tracy]

I know. And the cops, once again, now that this Reese guy is dead, like, they think that he's the guy. And so, like, they're just never going to. Like, the cops are slowly, like, winding down their investigation.

[Bobbi]

And he died months ago?

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

We're eight months into this thing now. It's February of 20 of 2003.

[Tracy]

Well, the family's got one ace up their sleeve to reignite this investigation.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

This is eight months. We've never crossed the police on anything. Anything. Even though many reasons why we could have been mad, but we weren't going to. Just leave it to the authorities. This is the biggest lead we have.

[Tracy]

Now we've got breaking news on the.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Elizabeth Smart abduction case. And so we release the sketch.

[Tracy]

They've got the sketch. They hold a press conference. They say fuck you to the cops and they release it.

[Bobbi]

That's a really big move.

[Tracy]

Yes. And Ed says we never ever went against the cops. But like it was now or now.

[Bobbi]

Now's the time. And guess what? They get a the sketch is out for two seconds. Who calls but this piece of shit's brother in law.

[Tracy]

This guy calls Ed's brother. I think that guy's my brother in law. He's got a teepee up in the mountains. But he's never let the family know where it is.

[Bobbi]

It's some secret place in the mountains. He goes, I saw the picture. Chills went down my spine. He said, if I'm right and this is my brother in law, there's a really good chance that Elizabeth.

[Tracy]

Elizabeth is still alive.

[Bobbi]

And so Emmanuel is Brian David Mitchell, the local fucking crackpot downtown.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

Everybody knows who this guy is. I don't understand. Understand it right.

[Tracy]

And so the cops search his name and it turns now, we didn't even get this story before, but this guy's been forcing Elizabeth to drink beer until she passes out. Yeah, he got arrested for stealing beer from Albertsons. And the cops had taken a picture of him during his arrest.

[Bobbi]

And we see it and there he is, Rasputin.

[Tracy]

There he is like in his fundamentalist garb that he's been wearing walking through town with Elizabeth for the last two months.

[Bobbi]

He's doing fundamentalist preacher cosplay. And so. But this is happening while Elizabeth was with him. So the cops had him and let him go.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

Now this guy really is like. I know. I'm not saying that as a joke. He's known around town as like that crazy preacher.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

On that. On so and so corner with like that weird lady who carries a doll. These two, everyone knows who these two.

[Tracy]

Are that carries the doll. Was. It hit me in such a creepy. That was the scariest thing I've heard.

[Bobbi]

These three, the pieces of shit and Elizabeth have been out in the world downtown doing things in plain sight for four months. Yes, Four months.

[Tracy]

Well, we learn about this woman.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

They had traveled extensively together on foot around the United States preaching the gospel as they interpreted it. He believed himself to be a prophet of God. In the last few years, he seemed to be spinning into a violent state of mind.

[Tracy]

He seemed to be spiraling into a violent state of mind, which is like, can we. Can we go find him now?

[Bobbi]

Yeah. Well, his ex wife calls and she says, oh, he was incredibly dangerous and sadistic. And then we get this horrible story about how this woman had like a very big fear of mice, right? So this piece of shit kills a bunch of mice and then put them in the oven without telling her. So then when she opened the oven, she's terrified and destabilized and like, her biggest fear is there.

[Tracy]

Oh, my God.

[Bobbi]

Also to the shock of nobody. He had a history of sexually abusing children. Yeah, he's a fucking pedophile.

[Tracy]

Known pedophile.

[Bobbi]

And Wanda has. Whatever her fucking name is, is encouraging all of the sexual abuse and all of the abuse, all of it.

[Tracy]

It's just unconscionable.

[Bobbi]

And then.

[Tracy]

But get him on your roster. Mormon church of like, people to hire out, I guess, working in the temple. And also one quick background check would have. Would have, like, we would have seen that.

[Bobbi]

But the question is, like, what is going on here? Because why would you not be like, hey, you can hire anyone else but him.

[Tracy]

The background check thing for me just seems so easy. If you're going to have like a 2002.

[Bobbi]

This isn't the 1600s, although the names.

[Tracy]

Of them make more.

[Bobbi]

You should be able to. You have a ton of money. Mormon church, you're super rich. Like, use those resources.

[Tracy]

But so now that we've got a picture of him, he had been spotted at a place called Super Salad and the buffet restaurant. It is. Yeah, it made me hungry. I want soup and salad. The brother takes a picture in there and the waitress is like, we saw this guy. And I think we saw Elizabeth.

[Bobbi]

Elizabeth was there. So Ed. Ed Smart says, like, much to the cops chagrin, he's like, the public was our greatest resource. They had a lot of credible sightings come in because they're like riding the bus.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

They're at Super Salad, they're at the library. They're everywhere.

[Tracy]

And it's telling him that she's out there and she's alive.

[Bobbi]

Right?

[Tracy]

Like, we still have a chance to find her.

[Bobbi]

But the thing is, the last credible sighting was in October and now it's March.

[Tracy]

Well, so now it's March 2003. It's nine months. This poor fucking girl has been living with this crazy man and this crazy woman. Woman for nine months. They're in a little town outside of San Diego. And Elizabeth is like, Elizabeth has this thing where she says being raped by him was horrific. But I had to wonder if having to listen to him wasn't worse because.

[Bobbi]

Just being berated with this bullshit of being God and submission. Imagine all the shit he was saying and all the awful things he was saying about everyone who's not him.

[Tracy]

And you just have to sit there and listen to it.

[Bobbi]

But Elizabeth, and I think this is part of her. Her devout Mormon upbringing, learned how to manipulate him.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

Because she convinces him to Salt Lake City.

[Nick]

She's like, I have this feeling. I think we might be supposed to return to Salt Lake. And I know God wouldn't really speak to me, but I know if you were to ask him, he would confirm to you whether or not that was the right path. Because you truly are his son, servant, and you truly are his prophet.

[Bobbi]

You're definitely a prophet and you're definitely God. What are your thoughts on Salt Lake City?

[Tracy]

Because he was talking about taking them to, like, Chicago or New York. And she was like, if I go away from the West Coast, I'm never coming back.

[Bobbi]

And he is so distracted by the ego boosting, where he's like, you're totally right. God is telling me Salt Lake City, it works. It works.

[Tracy]

It's unbelievable. Believe Elizabeth Smart is living up to her last name.

[Bobbi]

You know what I'm saying?

[Tracy]

You know what I mean?

[Bobbi]

So they're back in Salt Lake, and she's getting spotted. Immediately the calls come flooding.

[Tracy]

They get off the bus, and not one minute later, you hear the 9:1. Hi. Who do I call if I see that? Emanuel. Everybody's looking for.

[Bobbi]

Yeah, Victor. Sergeant Victor's here. And he hears the call comes in. He hears the call come in. The cop cars show up to where they are. They pull up next to them, like 15 cars around them.

[Tracy]

Victor, your time to shine, girl. Do not let us down here.

[Bobbi]

Elizabeth Smart is in a, quote, horrible wig.

[Tracy]

I mean, does Victor know a good when he sees one? Because he's like, this wig sucks.

[Bobbi]

And it's like, do you really think this is going to work? It's going to make everyone look at her more?

[Tracy]

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[Bobbi]

It's going to make it so obvious.

[Tracy]

This is what is so heartbreaking because everyone is hoping it's Elizabeth. They separate Elizabeth and the other two and he is saying to her. And I says, just for the sake of this nation and for your family, just tell me you're Elizabeth. And she looked at me and said, thou say it. And I've never heard those words in my life, but I says, I'll take that as a yes. Then we put her in the back of Officer Jones's police car. For the sake of this family and the sake of this nation, tell me you're Elizabeth, Victor.

[Bobbi]

And she says, she's like, this was it. This was the moment.

[Tracy]

Because she was saying, like, my captors. She keeps calling them her captors. My captors are right there. And we've seen this happen where the cops turn the victim back over to the murderer.

[Bobbi]

Did it with Ted Bundy.

[Tracy]

Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer. It happens all the time.

[Bobbi]

And try to imagine the absolute heinous abuse every day for nine months.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

So she says, I need to give the safest answer I could possibly give because she doesn't know what he's going to do, what he's capable of. And it's been nine months and no one has helped her.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

So for whatever reason, he needs Elizabeth to say it herself.

[Tracy]

Right.

[Bobbi]

Like these people are wrapping themselves in religious freedom and not, like, rip that fucking thing off her face, you know?

[Tracy]

It's hard. I know.

[Bobbi]

I'm sorry. Like, normally I wouldn't be saying this.

[Tracy]

Be the hero, Victor. Be the. Be the fucking hero, Victor.

[Bobbi]

And she. He says, like, you need to tell me that you're Elizabeth. And she says, thou sayest. And he's like, I don't know what it means, but I'm pretty sure that means that I'm Elizabeth.

[Tracy]

Yes, I know. And he puts her in the back of the car, and she starts to cry. Now, Ed, the dad gets the call. Somebody is like, do not pass go, Ed. Get in your fucking car and get down.

[Bobbi]

And they're not sure it's Elizabeth. And I'm like, we can still help the traumatized girl, though, right? Whether it's Elizabeth or not. Right.

[Tracy]

Well, he describes this actually made me cry. He gets down to the police station. He walks in. He says, there's a row of officers at attention. All of these cops are, like, lined up at attention. And as he's walking down the road, they're saying, God bless you, Mr. Smart. We hope everything works out okay. I'm sobbing. Ed says he gets to the end of the line. He sees Cordon Sparks, the detective, and he's like, I think we've got her. He opens the Door. And he says, and I quote, there is this young woman sitting on the sofa. Now, it cuts to her. We see her, and he says, it's not the young woman who left me nine months ago. She was a young girl. And yet here was this young woman. And he said, her face was sunburned and swollen. Her hair was pulled back in braids. Oh, my God, he says. And I held my miracle in my arms.

[Bobbi]

And we see it, and we see it.

[Tracy]

I can't even.

[Bobbi]

And Elizabeth is shocked because she says to us.

[Nick]

It took me a minute to respond because, I mean, I thought I was in trouble. But finally my dad was there and he was going to protect me. And no matter what happened, he wasn't going to abandon me. And it was going to be okay.

[Bobbi]

Finally, my dad was there. He wasn't going to abandon me. It was going to be okay. She had it on a loop in her head. Yeah, I'm going to survive with the hopes that my family will love me still.

[Tracy]

I love that. She hugs him for five seconds and then she pulls back and she goes, dad, you okay? You know what I mean? I know. Like, can we all talk about it all now, please?

[Bobbi]

In two minutes? But she says, like, I love. She said, those monsters could never take away my value or my worth. And I just. It breaks my heart that she needed to convince herself of that for all this time, you know?

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

So she was gone for 280 days. Mary Katherine is rightfully being called a hero. They both are. But I'm so glad that M.K. can I call you M.K.

[Tracy]

I'M calling her M.K. in my notes.

[Bobbi]

Me, too. One of my best friends from high school is named Mary Kate, and I. Mary. Mary Catherine. But, yeah, we call her MK or Mary Kay. But anyway, she. I'm so glad she's being acknowledged in this way because, like, she. That was a torturous 280 days. And she was right the whole time.

[Tracy]

Yes. But also, like, the guilt that she feels on top of it for, like, quote, not stopping the kidnapping or the.

[Bobbi]

Survivor'S guilt or whatever.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

So we got to talk about the piece of shit losers. The ranting and raving, the singing, the quote preaching.

[Tracy]

I gotta tell you, we're with Officer Corden again, and he's the one that's screaming at everybody. And I always love it when he's just like, this fucking piece of shit lunatic is, like, he would launch into.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

A spiel and I am the servant of the Lord.

[Tracy]

No.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

And I've only done.

[Tracy]

I've only done what I've been commanded to do.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

I found him very crafty.

[Tracy]

Get thee behind me, Satan. Get thee behind me, Satan.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

I'm not Satan, and I'm right here.

[Tracy]

Get thee behind me, Satan. Screaming about like, satan, get thee behind me, Satan. And you hear cor go, I am not Satan. I am. Courtney. I'm standing in front of.

[Bobbi]

You're a disgusting, abusive pedophile, high, hiding behind religion. Stop.

[Tracy]

It's disgusting.

[Bobbi]

Stop it. So the trial gets delayed for years, years and years. Every trick in the book.

[Tracy]

Because he's claiming mental illness and he. Yes, it's just getting delayed and delayed.

[Bobbi]

But Elizabeth is using that time to start to heal and work through her trauma. And she's like, yeah, I was scared of men. I was scared of a lot of things.

[Tracy]

And she's saying also, I never heard anybody speak about rape, you know, in. In, like, all my life, you know, like, it was something that she'd experienced. She never heard anybody talk, talking about it. So this makes her feel the shame that she's been talking.

[Bobbi]

And she said, like, she felt a lot of shame and embarrassment. And I'm like, yeah, because that's what she was taught to feel.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

So she blamed herself. Why didn't she run? Why didn't she scream? Like, we know that. We know why.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

But, like, Elizabeth had to come to that herself, of course. And she's like, what is even normal now? Like, I'm home, but, like, what do I do? What's normal? Like, how do I go to sleep? Like, what do I.

[Tracy]

She wakes up with her parents. She's like, I would never. I'd be. I live in Daisy's room now.

[Bobbi]

I know.

[Tracy]

You know?

[Bobbi]

So it's November 10, 20, 2010, the trial, finally, after, like, eight years.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

And she testifies against these pieces of shit.

[Tracy]

Yeah. And she's like, I didn't want to do that, but if that's what it was going to take to make this be over, she does. And, like, it's not over. We get on screen text before the documentary is over. But Brian David Mitchell was found guilty of kidnapping and transporting a minor across state lines for sexual activity. He gets life in prison without parole. Wanda charged with the same stuff. She gets 15 years. She was released in 2018.

[Bobbi]

Like, me give you a couple of notes. She's on the sex offender list for life.

[Tracy]

Oh, thank God.

[Bobbi]

Thank God for that. In 2010, four of her adult kids went on Oprah.

[Tracy]

What'd they say?

[Bobbi]

They said, here's the poll quote, look it up. It's all there. The article is there on oprah.com still. Like, look it up. It's there. But one of them said, I think the media portrayed my mother as being a victim. And I think one of the reasons I wanted to come on the show is to expose her for the monster she is.

[Tracy]

Oh, shit.

[Bobbi]

I mean, physical abuse, emotional animal abuse, sexual grooming, like, really bad.

[Tracy]

Were they adult children by the time Elizabeth Switches Smart happened?

[Bobbi]

Well, this is like, 10 years. I mean, this was in 2010. Okay, so she was. That was eight years. So by the time. Eight years, you know, they're all in their 20s or whatever.

[Tracy]

I'm just wondering, like, where her kids were when she was, like, living in the woods with.

[Bobbi]

I don't. That. I don't know. But, like, it's all. You know, it's all online to look at. And, like, they were actually, like, Yeah, I said that they were part of the LDS Church, working in the temple, which is like, okay. But in May 2025, she was arrested because she kept. She can't go to parks because she's a sex offender. Oh, so she was caught going to two parks. She's forbidden to do that. And she said she was, quote, commanded by the Lord to go to the. And nothing happened. She was just, like, hauled in. There was a hearing. No formal charges are going to be, like, nothing. Like, she should get a fine. She should get a year in prison. But, like, none of that's going to happen. So she's just out among us. Beware of your kids and everyone in Salt Lake City because she's still there. Look her up. She's on the sex offender registry for life, as she should be. But for her to only get that amount of time for being so.

[Tracy]

Complicit.

[Bobbi]

Complicit, yes.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

And so, like, important to that, like, she was abusing. Abusing her own kids. They would, like, make them pray for hours and hours and then be like, hey, look at this porn on the bed. And the sun is like. It was almost like they wanted to pray, participate. Like, they wanted the kids to participate in sex with the parent. Like, awful. She's a nightmare of a person. So don't give me the. Like, she's a victim, too. No, no. She was abusive since day one.

[Tracy]

So we learn Elizabeth is married. She's got a family. She began speaking publicly about what happened.

[Nick]

I just felt like it needs to serve a purpose. It needs to. To bring some good in the world. I wanted survivors to know that they had nothing to be ashamed of. I want. Wanted Them to know they, they weren't alone, that there were other people in this world who have experienced it and who can understand.

[Tracy]

She says it needs to do some good in the world. And, like, we've seen it. Like, we've seen what she's been doing.

[Bobbi]

We did that documentary where, like, she was the host of it.

[Tracy]

Yeah. And like, she's out in the world, like, making other women who've been through similar things feel less alone, making them feel understood and seen.

[Bobbi]

Yeah. She started the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. You should donate if you can. I did.

[Tracy]

Yes.

[Bobbi]

So it ends with, you know, go to. Want to talkaboutit.com if you, you or someone you know has experienced sexual abuse. But it ends with Mary Catherine and Elizabeth and her dad sort of trying to have like a cute quote, like, normal moment as Elizabeth is talking about that. But no one really mentions Lois or, or the brothers.

[Tracy]

We don't. We don't know. We don't know. Do you know anything?

[Bobbi]

I just know that, like, when they divorce and that allegedly they're not speaking.

[Tracy]

Yeah.

[Bobbi]

So I wonder not to be like, part of the problem, but I wonder if, like, teams have formed. Like, it could very well be like, I don't want to discuss this, or this is Elizabeth's time to tell her story and too many cooks in the kitchen. Like, I understand that, but I think the mother was, like, truly devastated in a way that she can't come back from.

[Tracy]

I mean, think about all they went through. Like, not just like the Elizabeth Smart tragedy, which is horrible, but then a divorce, then also realizing that, like, the husband is gay, then also him leaving the church. Like, you know, like, that's a lot for a family to go through. So.

[Bobbi]

And like, the, the coming out and divorce happened, like, at the same time. At the same time. Like one because of.

[Tracy]

Well, we are sending love and hugs.

[Bobbi]

To the whole family. Oh, my God.

[Tracy]

Oh, girl. We did Elizabeth Smart.

[Bobbi]

Kidnapped. Kidnapped. Kidnapped Smart.

[Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are we doing next?

[Bobbi]

We are doing hunting Phil Spector. Another piece of amazing music. Piece of guy. But this is part of the Homicide Los Angeles series on Netflix.

[Tracy]

Oh, great.

[Bobbi]

There's like an eight part Phil Spector thing or this. So we're doing this.

[Tracy]

We're gonna do that.

[Bobbi]

Yeah.

[Tracy]

Join the Facebook group. Join us over on Patreon, but only if you want more fun ad free bonus episodes only. That's the only way you're allowed to join.

[Bobbi]

Everyone's invited. But you have to be down for.

[Tracy]

Fun, for the fun. You have to enjoy fun. And we love you.

[Bobbi]

We love you.

[Tracy]

All right.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Bye.

[Bobbi]

Please stay safe.

[Tracy]

Bye.

[Bobbi]

We love you.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

Waiting at the Alhambra Police Department, in custody was Phil Spector.

[Bobbi]

I knew from the phone call from.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

My lieutenant that he was a very wealthy music producer.

[Tracy]

Me personally, I never heard of him.

[Bobbi]

Spector's style is often credited with changing how we hear pop music.

[Detective Corden Sparks]

This case was going to be what I call red ball. A case that's going to draw a lot of attention. And you have to recognize that going in, and I think we all did. This is murdered. There's no more serious crime.

[Tracy]

In both. It boils down to a passion and a sense of duty. Justice comes from finding the truth.