488: Andrea Yates: The Cult Behind the Killer Part 1

Summary

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True Crime Obsessed: Andrea Yates – The Cult Behind the Killer Part 1

Episode 488 (March 10, 2026)
Hosts: Patrick Hines & Julie Betsavalli

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Overview

In this episode, Patrick and Julie tackle the harrowing story of Andrea Yates and the lesser-known influence of a fringe religious cult on her tragic actions, as recounted in the HBO Max/Discovery docuseries "The Cult Behind the Killer." With their trademark mix of dark humor, empathy, and sharp commentary, the hosts examine the role of Michael Woroniecki’s cult, misogynist teachings, and religious fundamentalism in the lead-up to one of the most infamous filicides in American history.

This is Part 1 of a two-part series (with Part 2 immediately available for Patreon supporters), focusing on Andrea’s early life, the Yates family dynamics, the cult’s beliefs, and the chilling parallel stories of other cult survivors, especially Moses Storm and David.

“A mother killed her kids. How could she do this?...but they are missing a huge part of the story.”
— Moses Storm (03:01)

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Episode Structure & Key Segments

1. Setting the Stage: The Yates Family & The Crime

• Andrea’s Background: Andrea, a nurse, marries Rusty Yates (NASA engineer). They have five children in rapid succession, following their plan to accept “as many as God gives them”—but this plan’s pressures mount almost exclusively on Andrea. (04:31-06:45)
• Rusty’s Perspective: Rusty stresses their “traditional values,” admits Andrea was known as “Fertile Myrtle,” but evades real responsibility regarding birth control and mental health. (05:30-06:02; 10:02)
• The Day of the Tragedy: On June 20, 2001, Andrea, described as "catatonic," is left alone with all five children. The 911 call reveals a chilling, robotic demeanor. Patrick and Julie highlight Rusty’s lack of awareness and empathy, questioning his absenteeism and detachment despite Andrea’s declining mental health. (08:28-12:00)
• First Glimpses of Mental Health Crisis: Andrea’s postpartum depression is repeatedly ignored or mischaracterized—often described simply as “catatonic” by Rusty—leading to a downward spiral. (06:13–07:15, 08:28–09:46)

"He even says, 'I've never seen my wife like this before,' but I hug the kids and then leave five children under seven with a woman who is a shell of herself."
— Julie (09:10)

2. The Cult’s Role: Indoctrination & Influence

• Meet the Cult Leader: Michael Woroniecki:
  • A traveling street preacher with apocalyptic, misogynist, and psychologically abusive beliefs.
  • “This is control. This is fear. This is a ticking time bomb.”
    — Moses Storm (03:07)
  • All activities (indoctrination, “counseling”) are carried out via mail, audio tapes, and newsletters instead of face-to-face communal living.
• Cult Appeal and Recruitment: Rusty met Michael on a college campus and began following his teachings, described as “aggressive, angry, all about control and eternal damnation.” The cult preyed mainly on vulnerable young adults and new parents. (17:08–18:25)
• Control Over Women: The cult’s literature, such as “The Witch and the Wimp” pamphlet, taught that all women are inherently evil and must be dominated by men—a teaching which deeply shaped the Yates marriage and family structure. (63:22–65:00)

“He was all about, like, the impending doom of Judgment Day... Misery, eternal damnation, hell, Satan, the whole. It's exhausting.”
— Julie (13:26)

3. Child Abuse & Family Isolation

• Parallel Stories: Moses Storm & David
  • Moses Storm’s Testimony: A survivor, now comedian, describes being born into the cult, raised in poverty, isolation, and subject to constant physical abuse. His mother was Michael’s niece, highlighting the interconnectedness and inescapability of the cult. (22:44)
  • Childhood Experiences: “Street preaching at three,” severe beatings for minor or imagined infractions, and being forced to produce home videos showing their devotion for Michael. (37:31)
  • David’s Dilemma: Torn between yuppie aspirations and cult dogma, he describes “spiritual schizophrenia”—success in career and feeling like a “phony” because his cult leader disapproved of jobs, hospitals, and education. (29:30–43:08)
• Homeschooling and Isolation: All families homeschool to prevent “infecting” children with outside ideas—a key method of control and abuse. (31:03)
• Physical and Emotional Abuse: Detailed recounting of children being beaten for perceived failures to internalize cult teachings, justified by twisted biblical interpretations. Moses’s sister is beaten for enjoying a friendship; parents are “honored” to let Michael administer such violence. (58:44–60:34)

“They are literally beating their children into submission. Oftentimes the kids have done nothing wrong.”
— Patrick (49:16)

4. Mental Illness, Denial & Culpability

• Ignoring Andrea’s Decline: Despite clear symptoms of postpartum depression and psychosis, Rusty, as well as the cult, fail Andrea—he ignores medical advice emphatically warning against more children, brushes off psychiatric interventions, and continually refers to her breakdown as “the flu.” (56:01–58:03)
• Minimizing & Deflecting Blame: Both the cult and Rusty steadfastly avoid responsibility for Andrea’s state and choices, leaving listeners infuriated at the lack of empathy and self-awareness. (56:56–57:13)

“He calls it the fucking flu and says, ‘She’ll be hospitalized again... take medicine, and we’ll be done. That’s simple enough, right?’”
— Julie (57:13)

5. Perspectives on Blame and Empathy

• Patrick and Julie wrestle with how much blame to assign to Rusty, given his own losses but also his clear failings, and their discussion underscores the complexity of accountability in cases of coerced, cult-infused tragedy. (54:29–69:59)

“It’s not enough for me... I think a lot of people are culpable here. And the answer isn’t ‘well, she was crazy.’ That’s not where we are.”
— Julie (68:49)

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Notable Quotes & Revelatory Moments

• On the Cult’s Worldview:
  “God was going to end the world in a matter of 46 minutes from right now. He was that intense. It was that present.”
  — Moses Storm (14:44)
• On Family Dynamics:
  “I will drop this in multiple times: they were not on a commune. Everyone was in different states. All of this cult leader bullshit was happening through the mail.”
  — Julie (16:04)
• On Child Abuse:
  “They love it, they want it, because they know they don’t want to go to hell... you have to get them in line by age 12, or they are all going to burn in hell for eternity.”
  — Moses Storm (49:03)
• On Rusty's Evasion:
  “I do know that it came right after the fourth pregnancy and then again after the fifth. But I... I could not tell you what.”
  — Rusty Yates (54:20)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro to Case & Documentary Framing: 01:53–03:34
• Family Backstory / Childbearing Patterns: 04:31–06:45
• Mental Health & First Signs of Trouble: 06:13–08:44, 09:10–10:26
• 911 Call & Aftermath: 10:26–12:00
• Cult Recruitment & Control: 13:01–18:25
• Moses’s Parallel Family / Abuse: 22:44–32:18, 37:31–38:43
• David’s Spiritual Schism: 24:20–43:08
• The Witch and the Wimp Pamphlet: 63:22–65:00
• Culpability and Coercion: 68:49–70:28

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Tone, Style & Approach

Patrick and Julie bring compassionate, incisive commentary, unafraid to call out misogyny, religious extremism, and parental failures, yet also openly wrestling with the complexities of trauma, indoctrination, and personal responsibility. Their humor is dark but never disrespectful to victims, and they do not gloss over the horror of Andrea Yates's act—while highlighting that focusing solely on her crime erases the dangerous system that allowed it to happen.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode masterfully reframes a notorious crime, challenging listeners to look past the headlines and examine the toxic brew of misogynist theology, unchecked mental illness, and communal denial that led to tragedy. Part 2 promises to delve deeper into what the documentary omits, offering more on Andrea's fate, the cult's lasting impact, and further discussion on accountability.

“We love you. Stay safe, please.”
— Julie & Patrick (72:47)

Transcript

[Julie Betsavalli]

So you know how I'm doing a Schitt's Creek rewatch, but it's.

[Patrick Hines]

I didn't know that.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I am. And it's Mike's first time.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julie Betsavalli]

As of right now, we're like four episodes away from a little bit of Lexus.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julie Betsavalli]

He doesn't even know to look forward to it. It's the only thing, like, keeping me going.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's the only thing where I'm like, I gotta wake up to. I gotta, like, keep moving.

[Patrick Hines]

Yep.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Because Mike is gonna witness a little bit Alexis for the very first time.

[Patrick Hines]

The only thing is it's not as long as you want it to be like. You want it to be like 45 minutes in the episode.

[Julie Betsavalli]

But the scene is so perfect.

[Patrick Hines]

It is so perfect.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So that's sort of what I'm just like, just getting through the day so we can experience little Alexis for the very first time.

[Patrick Hines]

La la la la la la la. She's perfect. Hi, Julie Betsavalli.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Patrick Hines]

So, fam, we got a couple things to tell you about. Number one, join our Patreon, but only if you want bonus episodes, only if you want ad free episodes, and only if you're ready for the return of Drag Bingo.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, when is it? March.

[Patrick Hines]

It's March 13th. It's a Friday night at 7 o'. Clock. If you're not on the pates, you might consider joining to be with us. Got the amazing Schwa playlist is on fire. Julian, queen of the chat.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, we love the chat. You also get prizes if you win that. We, like, send you in the mail.

[Patrick Hines]

Steve has been building the prizes for, like two weeks now.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's amazing. It's so much fun.

[Patrick Hines]

It's always on the theme. The prizes are. They're not cheap, crappy drag bingo prizes. They are always like prize packs that are, like, things you really want.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. And like, they're on theme, whatever the theme is. It's all very fun. Vibes are spectacular.

[Patrick Hines]

And that's right at the $5 level. So don't forget about that. Also watch us on YouTube. We've got 230,000 YouTube subscribers. It's ins.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I say that over again.

[Patrick Hines]

230,000 YouTube subscribers. It'S insane. We're in a new fancy studio for now and it's. It's beautiful. We're having fun. We're really animated. We look good.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I hope so.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Is that it?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I mean, we're just getting started.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. All right, girl. What are we talking about today?

[Julie Betsavalli]

All right, so we're doing this thing where we're doing two episodes. Okay. We're doing the cult behind the killer, Andrea Yates, all three episodes that are on HBO, Max, and Discovery, but we're doing it in two episodes.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So the episode one is the episode you're listening to right now. Episode two is available right now at the $5 tier on Patreon. So if you gotta hear how this thing winds up, you can go listen to it right now if you're on Patreon. If not, it will be our regular episode next week.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. Andrea Yates.

[Patrick Hines]

Andrea Yates.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Andrea Yates confessing to police she drowned her children one by one in the bathtub.

[Rusty Yates]

I'd do anything to save my children, and there's nothing I could do. I was heartbroken.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone was horrif.

[Julie Betsavalli]

A mother kill her kids. How could she do this?

[Moses Storm]

When I watch news coverage about Andrea Yates, it's like, this woman is evil. She's insane. They are missing a huge part of the story. Michael Wernicke. Michael Wernicke was our spiritual teacher.

[Patrick Hines]

Andrea Yates religious beliefs were not mainstream.

[Julie Betsavalli]

They called it a cult.

[Moses Storm]

This is control. This is fear. This is a ticket time bomb.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Okay. So episode one is called Indoctrination. And we meet Rusty Yates, who's Andrew's husband. Just want to say at the top, I know this is a case that a lot of people know about. A lot of people are very obsessed with. I'm one of you.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We will get to. There's a lot that this documentary leaves out. You're going to be screaming at us as you're listening. I promise you, we will dive into all of it at the end.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. That's going to come at the end

[Julie Betsavalli]

of episode two of the end of episode two. So we're going to say things and Rusty Yates is going to say things that you're going to disagree with. We know the truth. We will talk about it at the end. But we don't want to confuse everyone.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And, like, sprinkle it in and go back and forth.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. One other thing I want to say. This documentary does a really good job of not focusing on the murders of

[Julie Betsavalli]

the children and, like, the gross way.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, we talk about it throughout, obviously, but we don't go through what exactly would happen. We never have that moment. Thank God. I don't think I would have been able to sit through that. So just wanted to put that out there. We're not going to be talking about the murder itself in detail.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So we open with Rusty. He's watching videos of the kids. Like, it's just like. Once again, please tell me there was a mental health professional on set to like to deal with this, because even

[Julie Betsavalli]

if there was, he'd decline it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God. It's just. So let me know. There was a mental health professional on set for the crew. You know what I mean? Like, knowing that these five kids were murdered is just so awful. They look so happy. We're looking at birthday cakes. We're watching them on bikes. It's like. It's just so tragic to watch.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. So we go back to 1989 in Houston, Texas, and Rusty tells us the first time he saw his wife Andrea. She was by the pool. He says she was looking like a goddess.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. We learn about her a bit here. She was a nurse at the time. She was doing really well. He says she was really smart and I admired.

[Rusty Yates]

After we got married, we discussed children and said we considered each one a blessing and we'd have however many came along. That was our plan. We didn't know they'd come along so fast.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And we didn't know they'd come along so fast. Lol. First of all, that's not a plan. That actually sounds super hard on the woman. We'll just, like, have as many kids as comes up.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And also, please don't play dumb about where babies come from, you know, Russ, don't be like, I don't know what happened. I looked at her like, there's so

[Patrick Hines]

many people who actually do struggle. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. So, like, that's. That's number one, where it's like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. So the kids are Noah, he was born in February. 94. John was born in December. 95, Paul, 97, Luke, 99. And Mary will join us a little bit down the road.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And this is where Rusty says that he, quote, jokingly called Andrea Yates Fertile Myrtle, because every time she could get pregnant, she did. And I'm like, okay, so these are people who are not using any kind of contraception at all and are still now, like, refusing to acknowledge its existence.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like, just, like, I don't know what happened. She's pregnant. And I'm like, okay, okay. I'm sorry, but the religious cult is not far behind.

[Patrick Hines]

No. I also did love this little town because every time she was pregnant, they'd, like, put a sign in the town square.

[Julie Betsavalli]

People won't, like, talk about that, but, like, she was known and very well liked in the community.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

People were very supportive of Angie.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's interesting that we really don't get a lot about her as a person in this documentary.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We don't. But it's all out there for you and we will tell you about it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So Luke was born in 1999, and a few months later, as Rusty tells it, Andrea starts to withdraw. She's staring blank, she's not speaking. In other words, it's postpartum depression. But no one is saying that.

[Patrick Hines]

No one's saying that he, Luke is the fourth baby in four years. Like she spent four years pregnant.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And then the next year, Mary is born in November of 2000. So they have five children. And it seems like Andrea was constantly either pregnant, just gave birth or breastfeeding or homeschooling, that this was her entire life.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, it's funny, even like being a parent, I hadn't even considered all of the, like being pregnant, having just given birth while still managing all the other kids. Yeah, like that home must have been absolute chaos.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Absolute chaos.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

Just to, like, recap, Luke was born in 1999. And then a few months later, as Rusty tells it, Andrea starts to withdraw. Then Mary is born in the year 2000. They now. They now have five kids.

[Rusty Yates]

Andrea seemed fine there for a couple months, but then Andrea very quickly declined. She was just a completely different person. She was nearly catatonic.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And this is the first time of like, a million times he uses the word catatonic to describe his wife.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, when we get there, we are going to learn that she had extreme postpartum. This woman was really, really suffering for years. For years. So June 20, 2001, Rusty says it was a normal morning with his catatonic wife who's eating cereal out of the box. Like, it's just a very sad scene.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. For him, like, oh, she never. She's doing things that are out of character for her. And I'm like, you just described her as catatonic, so. Yeah, right. He says, well, I've never seen my wife like this before, but I hug the kids. And then leaves five children under seven with a woman who is a shell of herself. And out the door, Rusty goes.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is like, even if you're not going to give a fuck about your wife. Rusty, which obviously is. Is very garbagey, like, those kids are not safe, Right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Just die, just not dealing with it. Just like, well, this will teach her how to be a mother. And this, like, how do you. How do you say in the same breath, she was catatonic. She's acting totally out of character. And then you leave everybody to go to work.

[Patrick Hines]

I also want to say, too, that Rusty is not like a sheltered guy. Like, he works for NASA. He's a man who's out in the world. It's not like he is the pastor of the local church and is living in. You know what I mean? Like, he's a man of the world who should have some understanding of what's going on with his wife.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, I was going to, like, save that, but yeah, he's an engineer at NASA in Houston. As in, like, Houston, we have a problem. Like, yeah, we fucking do, number one. But, like, in Houston, he's an engineer for NASA. So for him to. To, like, fall for all of this and lean into it when he's an engineer for NASA is pretty telling to me about, like, what his motivations for following this, like, really culty garbage.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So we hear the 911 call. And like, this is one of the very few times in the documentary we hear Andrea Yates. His voice.

[Julie Betsavalli]

She called I. Police officer.

[Patrick Hines]

What's the problem? Hello?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I just need a police officer.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you there alone? No, my kids are here. The dispatcher is trying to get more out of her, but she has nothing to say.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's incredibly eerie and chilling because she goes silent after she says this. And the dispatcher is trying to get information, but we just heard, like, the static and ambient noise on the other end of the phone.

[Patrick Hines]

And you start to get the sense the dispatcher is wondering if, like, the killer is in the house. Like, is she being held against her will? Because she's saying, like, is anybody else there with you? And she says, my kids are here.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. Jesus Christ. So then Andrea calls Rusty, and it's the same kind of call, just sort of robotic repeating, you need to come home. Not saying anything else, not really answering questions. And you really get the sense of like, oh, she was not okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

When Rusty walked out the door.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, because he even says, oh, my God, what has she done?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Rusty, fuck off. Off.

[Patrick Hines]

But also, I think her doing something extreme, like, this is not. Has not been far from his mind. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

No matter how much he wants to pretend like he didn't know what was going on, the fact that he's jumping to, oh, my God, what is she. Like, If Steve called me and was like, you need to come home. Steve having killed Daisy would be nowhere in my mind. So obviously the cops come, they see what Andrea has done, and Andrea is arrested.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. So we. This is like the. The very intro of the first episode, and if you don't know this case at all, like, everything is sort of about to get turned upside down for you, because I'm sure you might be thinking, how could this horrible woman do this to her five innocent children? And then we meet Moses Storm.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And I just want to. Just to say. Just to, like, expand on what you're saying. Like, the only thing I knew about this case when we started was that she was the horrible woman who killed her kids.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. A lot of people did.

[Patrick Hines]

That's all anybody knew about this case.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. And. Yeah. And it's one of those cases where it's like, you take two. I mean, that's what the press was saying. And then you hear like, oh, my God, I can't look into this. This is too morbid. Oh, my God, this is so awful. But Moses is here to.

[Moses Storm]

I don't know how to square this feeling of knowing that I understand 100% why Andrea did it, and I hate that. I understand.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I was in the same cult. And he's going to explain to us. Not only is he working through a survivor's guilt, but more importantly, he totally understands how Andrea could have gotten to this point.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And her to do this act and think that what she was doing was a good thing. Wrong, but. But the right thing.

[Patrick Hines]

At the same time, Moses is saying, like, he's watching the news coverage of this event, and he's saying, like, they're missing a major part of this. We all are. Like, the world was missing a major part of the story. And that major part of the story is a man named Michael Warnicki.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. So this is he. He calls himself a spiritual leader. He's a cult leader.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

He was all about, like, the impending doom of Judgment Day. He was a miserable person from the very beginning. He was, like, loudly and violently screaming at everyone to be miserable, too.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Misery, eternal damnation, hell, Satan, the whole. It's exhausting.

[Patrick Hines]

Once again, what is the appeal of that?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like, can everyone lighten up? What kind of life is this?

[Patrick Hines]

Like, I was gonna say this later, but we're gonna see this guy street preaching at some point. He's screaming at people. I'm like, does that ever work to attract, like, more members of your cause?

[Julie Betsavalli]

And they'd, like, panic during thunderstorms and start, like, begging God to save them. What kind of light life is this?

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And it's child abuse.

[Patrick Hines]

And Moses is, like. He's watching videos of the Yates family, and he's talking about how alike his family was to that family.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, everything about it is the same. And just one other thing to say about this Michael Warnack guy. It doesn't seem like he was that concerned with having a huge following. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

No. We've seen this before where it's like, as long as you're super, super, super loyal, you could have. You could have four followers or 400 or 4 million. It doesn't matter, as long as you're, like, ride or die. Literally, for him. He doesn't give.

[Patrick Hines]

And Moses will tell us more about this later. Like, this was very much not about, like, a. Like, a family vibe, you know? This was very much about, like, this man, just, like, exerting control.

[Julie Betsavalli]

He'd say things like, God was going

[Moses Storm]

to end the world in a matter of 46 minutes from right now. He was that intense. It was that present.

[Patrick Hines]

This is a matter of you Being forever in hell, in eternal damnation.

[Julie Betsavalli]

God is ending the world in 46 minutes from now. And I'm like, right, but what's the plan when that doesn't happen? You dick.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Then he'd, like, manipulate it into some lesson about, you know, like, he was tricking you. Or he would just, you know, it's all about control. Keeping you on your toes in the worst way, destabilizing you. The fear of God, literally. But it's like, that's not what. That's not reality.

[Patrick Hines]

And my question about these kinds of cult leaders is always, like, do you think he believes it, or do you think he just wants to control people?

[Julie Betsavalli]

In this case, I. It is so clear to me that he hates women. And it's all about controlling women.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I mean, it's all about control.

[Patrick Hines]

We haven't scratched the surface of that yet.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. I mean, because Rusty is here to say again that he and Andrea had, quote, traditional values. And I'm like, that's a dog whistle.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, I know what that means.

[Julie Betsavalli]

That's a dog whistle.

[Patrick Hines]

And he says, like, we read the Bible as a family. Because what Rusty's gonna do throughout this entire documentary is distance himself from Warnacki. Rusty needs to not be culpable in any way for this. It needs to be the thing that happened that totally shocked him.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right, Right. Which is weird because it doesn't work.

[Patrick Hines]

No. And, like, the introduction to Warnacki was his doing.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. Rusty met the cult leader back in college, and then this cult leader was sending him tapes through the mail. I also want to say, and I will drop this in multiple times just so you can realize it, that they were not on a commune. Everyone was in different states. All of this cult leader bullshit was happening through the mail.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Like, we're going to meet other people later that, like, that were his followers for 10 years who met him in

[Julie Betsavalli]

person one time, like, seven years into it.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So just. It's. This is not on a comp. They're not face to face. Just imagine the damage you could have done if they were all face to face. Or, like, what these people really could have done.

[Patrick Hines]

Totally.

[Julie Betsavalli]

To say that there wasn't damage caused, but, like, this was all happening through

[Patrick Hines]

the mail, which is so crazy. This is the kind of guy. He's, like, so nuts. He's, like, going into his room and recording tapes with his, like, his worldview and sending it to people and, like. And we'll talk more about this later, which I know is the favorite thing that we say on this podcast. We'll get there when we get there. But like, like I. These people who join these cults, I'm so sad for them. Because what is missing from your life that this is the answer to the void that you've been living with?

[Julie Betsavalli]

You know what I wanna say about this in particular? I. I know people like to throw around. No one joins a cult. But this Michael guy is starting off loud and aggressive. This is not. We see him with the huge, like Westboro Baptist Church signs, like massive signs, pointing and screaming at people. He was fanatical from the start. This isn't a lovey self help group where you're like trading scarves like fucking Nexium or whatever. This guy was exactly who he is from the beginning. So, Rusty, when you say that you admired this guy, you joined his cult.

[Patrick Hines]

You did. And the other thing that I wanted to say too, because I remember going through this when I went to college.

[Rusty Yates]

I had met him back when I was still in college.

[Patrick Hines]

Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords and King of kings, we shall set fire to this earth.

[Rusty Yates]

I'd never seen that kind of message where you don't have to belong to a church, you don't have to belong to an organization to find God. I admired that.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy is mostly finding people on college campuses.

[Julie Betsavalli]

How is he allowed on campus?

[Patrick Hines]

That's a great question. I mean, if it's a state school, maybe it's like public property or whatever. Because every school we hear about is a state school. But. But also, when I was in college, we had a week of orientation. I went to Emerson College in Boston. And like, the number one thing they drilled into us was don't join a cult. Especially this week.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Is that right?

[Patrick Hines]

Don't join a cult. Don't join a call. People at that stage, they're experiencing, like, being on their own for the first time. They're experiencing being able to make their own choices for the first time.

[Julie Betsavalli]

They're also like 18 years old.

[Patrick Hines]

18 years old. So, like, there's something so specific about him going to college campuses to find his victims. I'm going to call them.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And the thing is, he wasn't finding them. Like, you know, playing an acoustic guitar, sitting in a circle, talking about love and shit. He was screaming about hate and hell and Satan and the end of the world from the beginning.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So what is so admirable, Rusty?

[Patrick Hines]

What is so interesting? Like, what is so, like, what is what? Like, we're going to meet a guy named David in a little while who was like, taken by this Guy from the second he saw him.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, I'm very, very glad that I don't have the void in my life that would be filled by something like this.

[Julie Betsavalli]

That's so angry from the beginning.

[Patrick Hines]

Because there is a cult for me. We've talked about this.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, like, I could very easily wake up one day and be like, I've been in this cult for 10 years to me.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And that's why I wanted to make the point. Like, that's not the same as the whole, like, no one joins a cult thing. Doesn't really, I believe, in my opinion, apply in this situation.

[Patrick Hines]

Because he was screaming at you and, like, you're writing. You're literally writing to him, asking for the literature and the tapes. You know, like, you are joining this cult.

[Julie Betsavalli]

There was no substant. It wasn't like you were dropping acid and he was dropping it a little bit less than everyone else. Like, it wasn't like that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

You kind of had to, like, seek this guy out.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, it really. I know it's like such an old timey thing to say, but a good night's sleep changes your entire next day.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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Have a good night's sleep. But, like, really, truly.

[Patrick Hines]

Can I tell them the thing about Moses now? Because I kind of want to.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Sure.

[Patrick Hines]

So we're gonna learn at the very end. I have it in breakpoint letters because I. And I took a screenshot and sent it to you. I'm like, I did not see this coming. Moses is a very successful standup comedian in la.

[Julie Betsavalli]

He's working through that shit. I love it.

[Patrick Hines]

And I was on his Instagram. He's got, like, over a hundred thousand followers. He draws, like, really big crowds. But a lot of his routine is talking about his childhood. But, like, he doesn't give the context of the cult. In the acts that I've seen, he just talks about his mom and his family and how weird they were. So, like, hear it here in the documentary where it's, like, really sad and dark and scary. It's like a whole different way of presenting this information.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's cool that he was able to talk about it in this very real, raw, emotional way here with us while he also gets to work it out

[Patrick Hines]

and in comedy, because, like, we both know comedians like Moses in this documentary is not giving comedy vibes at all. It's not like he's here yucking it up, trying to, like, get the crew laughing. Like, this guy is crying. He's going through it. He's remorseful. He feels he's got survivor's guilt. Like, if you had been like, what do you think Moses does for a living? I would be like, I bet that he owns a hardware store. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I love this for him.

[Patrick Hines]

I love this for him, too. So he tells us he's born the fourth to fifth kids. His mom is Kathy. Now, importantly, Michael, the head bad guy here, the head of the cult, Michael is his mother's uncle.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So he was born into the family of the guy whose cult this is.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right.

[Moses Storm]

My mom met my dad and then immediately got pregnant. And this is really where she got attached to Michael. If you go from being the popular girl in high school to Then you're pregnant out of wedlock for her. At that moment, this high school identity

[Julie Betsavalli]

disappeared, and she married Moses dad right away and then turned to religion to save herself because, as everyone told her, she was a dirty, shameful, useless whore.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, exactly their words. Hey, who's the comedian here?

[Moses Storm]

You were.

[Patrick Hines]

Moses.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Moses.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like, that's basically. I mean, we've seen this a million times.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

She had to, like, go to religion because she's, like, worthless and she's a whore, and she's like, yeah, nothing. But at the same time, she goes to a religion where it's like, well, now all you do is have babies.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I was going to say she completely loses herself in this religion.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right?

[Patrick Hines]

And Moses says, like, she, like, completely reinvented herself as a member of this cult.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And we hear, like. We hear them, like, screaming on this audio, this cult leader, like, there is no Jesus Christ. There is no salvation. So what is there then? Fear, manipulation, A shitty, miserable life. Murder. Eventually, like, what is there then?

[Patrick Hines]

Right? Because, like, just, like, to put the fine point on it, it is this man's teaching that drives Andrea to do what she did. And this is the big reveal of this documentary. This is literally learning about this man and his teachings and what he made her believe about herself and her kids is the big reveal. It's the thing that the world didn't know about her when she was on the COVID of People magazine for being the world's biggest monster. Right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So let's talk about David. David, Michael was his, quote, spiritual father. He describes his family as, quote, very traditional Hispanic family. He had three sisters. So when he went to college, he was like the first person in his family to graduate college, but he joined a frat, and he came from a family of sisters, and now he has 100 brothers, and he loved it. And this is when yuppies became a thing. And David was like, oh, I want that. I want that to be my life.

[Patrick Hines]

And you know what? Like, he set out to do it and he fudgeing did it.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He wanted to make money. He wanted to, like, get the good job, have the nice car. David totally does this while the guy,

[Julie Betsavalli]

this cult leader, is on his campus screaming at him. And David is sort of, like, torn between being a yuppie and how, like, the guilt over being a successful person who made money and has a job and a life.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So much to say about all of this. Number one, like, when David describes Michael Warnacki at his college, he's like, I

[David]

thought, wow, this is the first time a man of God is calling out other so called Christian people, that was powerful to me. It was bold. This guy had balls with his camel print khakis.

[Patrick Hines]

Huh? You know, the guy's kind of muscly and he's loud, he's wearing camo pants. Like, all of this really impresses David. The guy Warnacki is like taking down the traditional understanding of Christianity. Like, that also really speaks to David.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And I'm like, right, but this isn't a hot take. Like, oh, the mega. The guys who run the mega churches know nothing of humility.

[Patrick Hines]

Cool, right? I know. I'm also just like, I wonder if David was brought up in Christianity. We don't really get much of his spiritual upbringing. Because in order to be so drawn in by this guy Warnacki, you have to already have an inclination to care about religion to understand enough of what this guy is denouncing to care about what he's saying.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Or you agree? Yeah, I'm with you televangelists. The mega churches suck. So if David's like, oh, I recognize that. We agree. And then sort of as an 18 year old kid on campus and he's much old, David's like, the guy had balls with his camo print khakis and kind of chuckles. Like, it's kind of a ridiculous scene. Cause he's like, you know, spewing this violent rhetoric and everything is a battle and a war is coming and like stories about beating people to a pulp. And I'm like, David.

[Patrick Hines]

And I think too that like, some college kids just want to be a part of something, I guess.

[Julie Betsavalli]

But what really struck me in this moment in particular is like, David and Rusty will be like, it was edgy, it was ballsy. And I'm like, we don't speak to a single woman in this documentary about, like, I would have loved to have talked to a woman about her perspective of, like, why she would have been drawn to him. Did the man introduce her?

[Patrick Hines]

I was going to say, I don't. I think that is the case. A, because he didn't have a lot of followers and B, because in every instance that we see, the woman is brought in because the husband is already there.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's just interesting. Like, I think most women would walk by this guy and be like, shut up, you fudgeing blowhard. Like, why are you even allowed here? And then some of the guys are like, ooh, he's edgy in a way that like, oh, I get to talk about violence.

[Patrick Hines]

But like, we see it now, like, this is why people join the proud boys, you know what I mean? Like, this is why people are drawn into that kind of world. Because here's a question.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Have you punched a Nazi today?

[Patrick Hines]

Not yet.

[Julie Betsavalli]

You should.

[Patrick Hines]

Luckily I don't know any but.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And none of that doesn't really matter anymore. So much.

[Patrick Hines]

I truly.

[Julie Betsavalli]

They can just like pop up when you where you least expect.

[Patrick Hines]

Nazis in disguise.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Fudge that. Punch a Nazi.

[Patrick Hines]

So now we see the pamphlets this guy is sending out and like the first one we learn about is called how to win the Crazy War now. And in learning about the crazy war, whatever the hell that is, we get a little bit of this Warnack's backstory snooze. Well, he went to Central Michigan University, he played football and he was really good at it. All of a sudden I got hurt during a spring football game.

[Rusty Yates]

I lost reputation, image, the guys, the scene.

[Moses Storm]

I had nothing and nobody.

[David]

He claims of encountered the resurrected Jesus.

[Patrick Hines]

And because he was injured, he didn't get to go to the NFL, says David. I was like, I don't know about that.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, like who told you this? Cult leader.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Right, right, exactly. Was it one of his pamphlets or

[Julie Betsavalli]

tapes or whatever that is when he's saying everything is quote, satanically infested. And I'm like, can someone please have a metal band be named Satanically infested?

[Patrick Hines]

That's a great or just a T shirt, you know, Satanically infested. I love that. And once again like another pamphlet is like asking the followers like, what are you living for? Like asking all the big questions. And so this guy David is so drawn in by this guy Warnack. I guess he saw him speaking on the campus but didn't like join the cult right away. But after thinking about it for a while, he like looks at one of the pamphlets, this guy Warnack, he's got his like home address on it. And David writes away and is like, hello daddy, like how can I be your follower?

[Julie Betsavalli]

And it's so interesting because David's like a smart guy and he has goals for himself and he wants to be a yuppie and he wants to be success. I'm not saying that as a joke. Like in my notes, he becomes David the yuppie because he to wants wanted like a high paying job and successful. And it's like this guy hates schools and hospitals and anything based in reality.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

How did you get here, David?

[Patrick Hines]

That becomes the crux of David's issue is that it's like the 80s and like he sees like, you know, greed is good.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Greed is good.

[Patrick Hines]

He wants to work for the Fortune 500 company. He wants to have the money. He's nailing it. But at the same time joining this group where the leader is saying, he

[David]

says that every institution, colleges, hospital, they're all satanic distractions. So you do everything except seek the real God.

[Patrick Hines]

The demons are being loosed. You are headed for hell. This whole world is headed for hell.

[David]

I thought the whole world was controlled by the devil.

[Patrick Hines]

All companies are of the devil. All hospitals are of the devil. Everything that you're doing that isn't about me is of the devil. And so David is sort of like in the closet about having this, like, great fancy job.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And. And like going back and forth feeling like he's got to eventually choose between the two.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Religious trauma is a hell of a drug.

[Patrick Hines]

And it happens real fast in this religion.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So let's talk about. We're back with Moses. He has a lot of these home videos and he explains that he lived in a rented one bedroom house. Seven people, five kids, just like the Yates family. Two parents, seven people in a one bedroom house.

[Patrick Hines]

That is just so crazy.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right? And of course, everyone's homeschooled because being in a school is demonic and satanic and satanically infested or whatever. And everyone grows up. Like that just means that everyone, in this instance, in this cult, everyone grows up in this, like, echo chamber of insanity without having a say in it.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Don't get to decide.

[Patrick Hines]

And without any outside influence to look at and be like, that looks happier.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

That looks like something that's better than my home life.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And Rusty. Well, Rusty chimes in to claim that Andrea was the one who really, really pushed for homeschooling because she was afraid of what he calls the negative influence of the other kids on their kids and she didn't want them exposed to it. And so Andrea, according to Rusty, was like, heave, we are absolutely homeschooling. She was like the driving force.

[Patrick Hines]

He says, yeah. And this is where also we start to see all of these other home videos. Like we saw a bunch of Moses. They're all chanting for Jesus.

[Moses Storm]

And like we are watching a home video right now with all my sibling. And these were tapes that were meant to go to Michael to show how blessed us kids were and how much we. Praise Jesus.

[Patrick Hines]

Praise Jesus.

[Julie Betsavalli]

They don't even know what they're saying.

[Patrick Hines]

They don't know what they're saying. But the point is for the. His mother to send these videos to Michael to show them what a great job they're doing raising the kids. Because one of the things we're gonna learn down the road, and this obviously takes us where we're going, is that if these parents can't, like, break these kids, if these parents can't get these kids to be sa a certain age, then everyone's going to hell, right?

[Julie Betsavalli]

And everything about this is child abuse. And so, like, Michael and his dumb wife Rachel and their eight kids bought a bus and they drive around screaming at people. And so Moses, his mom buys a bus because if the cult leader does it, you have to do it because.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, also the cult leader bought a new bus, so now he's selling his old bus. And so, like, so Rusty and Andrea buy the old bus, but I'm like,

[Julie Betsavalli]

okay, so if you don't do the thing that he does that you're disobeying him, and I guess you'll die a fiery death in 45 minutes from now.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Right. But that's the other thing too. It's like, it's not supposed to make sense because it's like, if you don't get it. Well, that's the point. It's because you haven't been divinely inspired yet.

[Julie Betsavalli]

The way satanically infested.

[Patrick Hines]

You're satanically infested. Happily, that's going on the calendar for 2026.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's gotta be.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

I love Home Chef. Look. I've done a lot of these meal kit things, and I have to say, Home Chef feels a little bit more elevated than the other ones. And I'm noticing, like, more vegetables, like, healthier, like getting the stuff you kind of need in your meals.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, they have so many options. So they have like the Home Chef's culinary collection, which is kind of fancy. They have the classic meal kits. They have express options. And all of these options are designed to help you feel confident in your kitchen. If you need to throw something in the oven, great.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

They're so easy.

[Patrick Hines]

They give you the little tin to put it in. You literally take it out of the bag, put it in the tin, put it in the oven. Thirty minutes later, dinner is ready. That's all you had to do?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. You can have like those classic recipes with fresh ingredients and 30 minute meals. You have those oven ready trays which are like. And it comes with. With the tray.

[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Patrick Hines]

Home Chef.com TC must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. It feels like a rule. It is, but, like, you should be anywhere.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I was going to say you should be anywhere.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, what's going on over there?

[Julie Betsavalli]

So rusty Claims he's not into buying the bus. Andrea is very into buying the bus. The kids are into it. So Rusty, the, like, patriarchal world, like, is overruled by his wife and kids and, like, is forced to buy the bus.

[Patrick Hines]

And once again, this guy works for NASA. What are you doing living on a traveling bus?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Girl, I gotta tell you, it's not like, oh, HR for NASA. He's an engineer for NASA. He is surrounded by science and math and reality and logic, right?

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, this was not, like, work from home Wednesdays. You know what I mean? Like, how are you living on a traveling bus, street preaching with your crazy guru and being an engineer for NASA. We got to get people to the

[Julie Betsavalli]

moon, girl, I got to tell you, we already went 20 years ago.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, we gotta make sure the space station is taken care of.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I think it's.

[Patrick Hines]

We gotta be monitoring that planet you want to live on.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I know we got a lot of work to do the planet, but that's what I'm saying.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, this guy's an engineer for NASA. Focus, Rusty.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Well, guess who's not invited. Rusty. Yeah, but I, you know, I. I think the thing is, for Rusty, this is kind of perfect because his wife can write the letters and be in the cult, and he can still use the patriarchy to his advantage. And then he can go off and, like, go to work and leave her with the five kids. And, like, it kind of works out pretty great for Rusty, because I think based on what we're learning here, it's like, this is a great way to control the woman in my life.

[Patrick Hines]

And also, if anything goes wrong, he can blame it on the cult guy.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So Moses says street preaching and the

[Moses Storm]

bus entirely, entirely consumed my childhood. As early as three years old, I was out on the street yelling at people, saying, you're headed for hell, even though I had no idea what I was saying at 3.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Street preaching at 3 years old. This is child abuse.

[Patrick Hines]

This is the craziest thing I've ever seen. Like, I don't understand how this doesn't feel like. I guess we can say that at this point, the mother, Moses, his mother has been indoctrinating, she's been groomed. All of them have been. But, like, screaming on the street. And Moses was saying, like, he was doing it proudly at 3 years old. I don't know if you all remember what 3 year olds are like, but, like, they're barely verbal.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like, he was. I was yelling at people, telling them they're going to hell. And I had no idea what I was saying.

[Patrick Hines]

If I were a person on the street who saw a three year old screaming that at me, like I would be calling the police on that family.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. You know, it's truly insane.

[Patrick Hines]

As small and insular as this cult was, they were pretty public. And I just want to know, like, where were the people who saw this happening? Where were like cops that saw this?

[Julie Betsavalli]

They were like, come on, honey, grabbing their three year old. Let's go across the street away from the crazy people.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, and in fairness, I would

[Julie Betsavalli]

probably do this because they were public, but there were three of them on a street corner.

[Patrick Hines]

But I do think if I saw a three year old kid being dragged around holding up a sign saying, you're all going to hell, I would hope that somebody would call. I'm a foster parent, so I. I'm a little bit dialed into this world. I know that like social workers get calls for this kind of thing. You call, call them, you know, like, that kid is not safe.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's, it's horrifying.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Here's the deal though, everybody.

[Patrick Hines]

It's also like the least horrible thing that happens to a kid in this.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Rusty Yates]

No.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Here's the deal, everyone. The end of the world is coming.

[Moses Storm]

One of Michael's core teachings was about the end of the world. Only few will be saved. Like in the days of Noah, that means eight people. That's how many people were saved on Noah's Ark. So I was counting Michael's family, and I'm like, well, that's already eight people. How is there room for us?

[Julie Betsavalli]

And only eight people are gonna be saved. And now Moses hears this as a kid and he's like, oh my God. Michael, the cult leader, his family's eight people. How is there room for everyone else? Why is Michael screaming at me that the end of the world is coming and basically I'm dead? Like, what do I do?

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing is, everybody, including the other adults are all doing the math, but they're all thinking that they're going to be like the exception to the rule.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Well, this is perfect though, because what the cult leader is doing is pitting the families against each other.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Because Moses explains, well now the Yates family is a threat because they also have a bus. There's seven of them, seven of Moses and his family and eight of the cult leaders family. Like there's not enough room for everyone to be saved. And this is when Moses says, when the Stakes are so high, and everything is super violent and super scary.

[Moses Storm]

He says, in that scarcity mindset, you would be surprised what actions people will take to spare themselves and their family from this tragic end.

[Julie Betsavalli]

You'd be surprised what actions people will take to spare themselves and their family from the tragic end that the cult leader is screaming at you about.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And he says it perfectly. And that should, if you're new to this story, kind of wake you up

[Patrick Hines]

and go, oh, yes, yes. And that's why Moses, like, funny as he is, is, like, every day wakes up with some kind of survivor guilt, 100%, you know?

[Julie Betsavalli]

And, like, what he just said is one of the many reasons we're here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Talking.

[Patrick Hines]

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So David, the yuppie frat guy, is spending hours studying Michael's teachings.

[Patrick Hines]

He says, can you think of anything more boring?

[Julie Betsavalli]

No. And not just boring, like, stop fucking yelling at me.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Lighten up. I'm going to live my life. I'm a witch. And you don't want anything to do I with me. And you're on me.

[Patrick Hines]

You're deviated. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

No. Deviated septum is what I have fixed.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, right. Right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Now I can breathe, and I haven't had a sinus infection in two years.

[Patrick Hines]

That is true.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Isn't that amazing?

[Patrick Hines]

Congratulations.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Thank you so much. When he said to me, and he was like, I can't wait for you to have the surgery because it was so bad. It's like your septum is, like, too deviated. Satanically infested.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And he said, he was like, I cannot wait for you to walk into my office for time a long, like, your third checkup and be like, doc, I can't believe it. This is how the other half lives. And that's what I was like. I could have cried.

[Patrick Hines]

I remember at the time being a little bit worried that you were being sold a surgery you didn't need.

[Rusty Yates]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Changed my life. I'm in my DMS about it. People ask me about it. I give them advice about it. Like my personal experience. Of course, it's not universal, but reunite the septum.

[Patrick Hines]

Everybody get that septum reunited. We do not want it deviated.

[Julie Betsavalli]

But David explains, like, kind of what you were saying. He calls it spiritual schizophrenia. His words don't come for me.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[David]

But because he was like, on one hand, I'm happy. I've accomplished was just achievement. I was the first person in my family to go to College and graduate from college. But the other side, I'm feeling guilty. I knew Mike would be disappointed and I was fearful because I knew that he would think, see, I was right. Look at you. Called you out as a phony. And you are, and you know it.

[Julie Betsavalli]

He feels super guilty because this goes against Michael's teachings. And I'm like, well, stop mailing away for the tapes. I'm sorry. I know. I don't mean to say it.

[Patrick Hines]

I couldn't agree more. And like David with the good job, who feels so good guilty because corporations are evil, is going to be Michael's first fudgeing phone call when he wants to take his family to Europe and he needs money.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And I don't mean to. I just think this is such a. Like, you should be scared by this, that this can happen so far away. It doesn't happen on a commune. It's not like the self help group where everyone's living together. That David can be in a place where he says, there were two Davids.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

You know, that should scare you and sort of go like, oh, and especially now with the Internet.

[Patrick Hines]

And it just made me wonder, are there some people who just don't feel like they deserve to be happy? Want to put that on David. Like, he's here, he's taking accountability. He's saying all the right things.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I don't mean to talk shit about David. No, I'm not saying I'm not.

[Patrick Hines]

But whenever we cover a cult documentary, I'm always wondering what is the thing that, like, David was missing, that this was filling Right. You know, it makes me sad for him.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. And I just sort of wish that we, I guess, heard that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

From David. It seems like. And these people have given us a lot and David's been really honest. But I guess that's the one thing that I felt we didn't hear clearly.

[Patrick Hines]

I do wonder if it was said but not used because the David timeline jumps.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It does.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, we get to the end of David's story in the cult, but we never hear the story of him leaving. All of a sudden, he's a crusader against the.

[Julie Betsavalli]

David does great work. Like I'm not. So the Yates family, right. They have five kids. Life is busy. Mostly for Andrea now.

[Rusty Yates]

Rusty claims after Luke was born was, you know, taking care of the kids. And so I'd lost touch with the Warneckis. But I didn't discourage Andrea from writing if she wanted to write. I'm like, you know, whatever. That's her business. You know, her choice.

[Julie Betsavalli]

That's her business. That's her choice. And I'm like, that is so interesting. Rusty, Here's a question. Does that apply to, like, her body or just writing the letters to the cult?

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's just like, yes, interesting. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm like, it's really funny that we're talking about Andrea's choices right now.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and listen, fam. Like, not to be too, like, evasive about it, but this. This is some of the stuff we're going to talk about at the end of episode two. Because there's a lot more to know about Rusty and their marriage.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And just to hear, like, wow, these five kids. Like, wow. Like, Andrew's doing a lot of the heavy lifting.

[Patrick Hines]

And I can't imagine it.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I, like, all the heavy lifting really

[Patrick Hines]

goes away for a weekend for work or whatever. And I'm alone with Daisy. And like, we're. She's 12 and she's 12, and she's one person.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Five kids under seven.

[Patrick Hines]

I can. I truly alone. Cannot.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And suffering and suffering and scared and not. It's crazy. It makes me fucking furious.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So Luke is baby number four out of five. And remember, this is when Rusty says, this is just now when Andrea starts to not be like herself.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And he says, I don't see it as any kind of illness. I just see it as, like, oh, maybe it's too much. What's too much? Rusty, use your words. What are you saying?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Say it then. If you're gonna sit down for the doc, then say what you think is too much for her. Rusty.

[Patrick Hines]

And I want to reiterate that, like, I understand. At least in my understanding, these were the early days of, like, the real conversations happening around postpartum depression. And I would. I would give Rusty more room to, like, not necessarily know. I think that there are men who don't know about that stuff, you know?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Sure.

[Patrick Hines]

But I. Wait, I. What I was going to say was, Rusty is a NASA engineer. Yeah. This is a man who knows things.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And also, like, you should care if your person is even a little bit different. Different.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Are you okay? What's wrong? You feel like the vibes off.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Are you okay?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

That could have helped at all. And even if you, like, you have to listen. You can't just ask the question. You have to listen and hear your person.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

When they're suffering.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It feels like she's giving out pretty clear signs.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, and she doesn't. She's not even doing it on purpose. Like, she just can't function right. Like, she literally is staring at walls and it's like, you know, if that were Steve, I'd be like, babe, I love you. We got to get this figured out because I can't leave you home alone with this, the baby, if you can't take care of her. Right? You know, girl. Ritual is back. Look, you all know this fam. Ritual's team of scientists poured over thousands of studies to identify the common gaps between nutrient needs and what people are actually consuming across different life stages.

[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

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[Julie Betsavalli]

It's minty fresh.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, it's like fun. Literally, it's like ridiculous.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So by 1999, Andrea is in the throes of a mental health crisis.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. But like, we know that because we're smart and we're watching this, but it's a not being said. Just.

[Patrick Hines]

He calls it a nervous breakdown.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like, we're not. We haven't heard the word doctor yet or therapist yet.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And so Andrea, this is like the fourth time he says catatonic.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And so then this is like we drop this in and then they do this a lot where we kind of get like a little bit of Andrea, a little bit of Moses, a little bit of David, a little bit of David, a little bit of Andrea. Like, we're back and forth. So now this is where we get like, as the first episode ends, Moses is telling us about the End absolute extreme violence that the parents were inflicting on their children and also allowing the cult leader to beat their children. To which I say, fuck all of you.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

You're a monster if you let this happen. This is, this is, there's no excuse for this.

[Patrick Hines]

There's no excuse for it. And how it's being explained is that Michael, who I think is just a masochist cult leader. Yeah. Likes to beat children. The explanation, and this is the whole premise of the documentary.

[Moses Storm]

Michael would say foolishness is, is bound up in the heart of a child and only the rod of reproof will move it far, far away. They love it.

[Patrick Hines]

They want it, because they know they don't want to go to hell. But if you can't get them in line by the age of 12, they are all going to burn in hell for eternity. So they are literally beating their children into submission. Oftentimes the kids have done nothing wrong.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

They're just beating them because Michael is telling them that they have to. And I understand that these parents have been indoctrinated, these parents have been groomed. I get it. But they are beating their kids within inches of their lives.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. I respectfully disagree the tiniest bit. Because the grooming thing for me, I struggle with. Because he was always exactly who he was. So that, that's the only point where I'm kind of like, I would love to see, in a weird, fucked up way, I'd love to see the grooming because, because that would help me sit with this a little more.

[Patrick Hines]

I understand that. I, I, I hear, I hear what you're saying. And it could just be that I can't sleep at night if I think that these parents just, like, decided to listen to this guy and just beat the living shit out of their kids.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Or, or like, consider it an honor and a privilege when he would take a piece of plywood to their child and then force the child to write Bible verses on the pieces of wood that they'd be beaten with.

[Patrick Hines]

But I think the evidence of the grooming has to come from the fact that, like, these parents weren't like that before they met him. Or like these parents weren't like that before they were members of his church. Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, they weren't beating their kids until they were convinced that if they didn't do that, their kids were going to burn in hell. I mean, ultimately, that's why Andrea Yates kills her children.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Sure. You know, I guess, I guess the grooming is. I, I get, I Just want, like,

[Patrick Hines]

I want more of it might be the right word. It's just that I think maybe it's more like when you accept a. Like, maybe it becomes that catch 22, where you've accepted this belief, that system, and so now, like, because you've accepted it and done all these horrible things, you can't go back on it. You know, like, you. You're. You're. You're in too deep to. To. To get yourself out of it. Like, we never learn. If Moses family is, like, still in this cult. We never meet anybody else in his family. We only meet him. He's here, to be very honest. He'll tell us later. He was in until he was 16.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

What was that escape journey like? But it's just, like, the stuff about the beating was so incredibly hard to watch.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah. It's awful.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So that's how the first episode ends, basically. So the second episode is called the Horror within, and Moses says something super interesting. Here he goes, when I watch cult

[Moses Storm]

documentaries, I get jealous of their episode two. They show people, oh, we were all coming together. We're all in this commune, and we're doing yoga together. We never had that. We never had the episode two. It's not like the Children of God called. This is not wild, wild country.

[Julie Betsavalli]

This wasn't wild, wild country. And I'm like, oh, fuck. Sheila mentioned. Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

He was like. He's like, this isn't that. Like, we didn't have that. We were already isolated. Which, again, is, like, such a crazy thing to think about that. This was all through the mail.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Once again, we only meet the Yates family. We meet David. We meet a handful of other people who got out early. But, like, it feels like this was a very small following.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And Moses says, like, they'd go down to Florida to see this cult leader guy, like, once a year.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And it was like torture for him and his sister, but, like. Like, just to hit that home. It's like you'd get, like, a newsletter or an audio cassette tape, and he'd be like, screaming. And eventually he'll graduate to video. We'll get there and, like, it's just really crazy. It's scary to me.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree. And. And Moses is saying that, like, Moses grew up knowing you cannot get out. You will never be out. This is your life forever.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. And the end of your life is death and doom and destruction and hell and Satan, you know, like, there's no

[Patrick Hines]

good anywhere even if you do the best. Only eight people are going to heaven. And that's the entire member count of my mom's family.

[Julie Betsavalli]

45 minutes in 45 minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's also. She's like, why are you all doing this?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I don't know. Lighten up. This is no way to live.

[Patrick Hines]

But can I tell you that that is like. That is the thesis of our episode, of these episodes. Lighten up.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Even if you believe that we don't, that we have more than one life on this plane.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

The one you're here for. Now can you lighten up and just. Do be nice, Moses.

[Patrick Hines]

We're not talking to you like you were born into this.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

No, no, no, no. You have no choice.

[Julie Betsavalli]

The kids are the Leah Remini of the scenario.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly. Like anybody born into this is like, you, obviously, you have no choice, but like the.

[Julie Betsavalli]

The cult leaders of the world.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm saying, like, yeah. Oh, I know. How. How much fun is it to run around the world screaming at people, looking like an insane person?

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's actually super fun because all the women fall in line that for him it's fun.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So Rusty. Today is like, you know, after he's used the word catatonic 15 times.

[Rusty Yates]

I honestly don't know what percentage precipitated Andrew's breakdown. But of course, having kids is stressful. Living in a small space can be extra stress. But I never really realized that coupled with her exposure to the Warneckis could be troubling.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I don't really. I can't tell you what precipitated.

[Patrick Hines]

I really have no idea. I do know that it came right after the fourth pregnancy and then again after the fifth. But I. I could not tell you what.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Why I'm like. And he just keeps saying, like, I don't know, man. I guess five kids in a small space is a little bit stressful. And I'm like, oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. And this is the first time that he really distances himself from the idea that the Warnaki cult has really much to do with this at all. And that's when it. It hit me that, like, he. Because he introduced the family to the cult and didn't, like, force them to get out of it, he really has to distance himself from culpability here. And I know. Look, I. I just want to say this, that we're gonna learn at the end of episode two, like, of our episode two, a lot of, like, really shitty things and ways in which this man was a really bad guy, but at the same time, like, his five kids were murdered, you know, and he's gotta live with that every single day. And so I can't feel no empathy for this man.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

You know, I hear that. I'm trying to look you in the eye as I say it.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I hear that. So, you know, it's 1999, and this is a few months in after Luke was born, their fourth child. So remember, this is according to Rusty, the first time Andrea starts, quote, disconnecting,

[Rusty Yates]

I open the bathroom door, and there she is standing, looking at herself in the mirror with the knife up to her neck. She just stood there, catatonic.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And he walks into the bathroom, and he sees Andrea staring at herself in the mirror with a knife to her neck.

[Patrick Hines]

Now, this. This is an absolute moment of crisis that is not treated as such.

[Julie Betsavalli]

No, no, no, no, no. But she. He actually, like, takes her to a doctor. Finally, after using the word catatonic 20 times.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. She's hospitalized. And the doctors tell them that she has postpartum depression. And according to Rusty, the doctors explain the seriousness of the illness, and it completely falls on dead ears.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Well, I just, like. He goes, I don't know what that looked like or what it meant. I'm like, hey, NASA engineer, ask fucking a question. And also, take your wife seriously. Take this woman seriously. Stop saying she's stressed or emotional or. Must be a whole lot of work having that litter full of kids that you did to her. Yeah, like, the way he's like, I don't know, man. I. And there was. I didn't know anything about it. And there was literally, literally no way for me to find out more information, Rusty.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing is, the one thing the doctor tells them not to do is have more kids. And like, they just, like. From Rusty telling. They decide together, according to the documentary, that they are going to not listen to that. Because what happens is they medicate Andrea, and she starts to get better. And so Rusty is saying, she did get sick again.

[Rusty Yates]

She could try to harm herself again. But I didn't even think that at the time. I just thought, okay, she'll get sick. Worst case, it'll be like a flu. She'll get. She'll get treated with the same medicines that work for her before, and. And we'll be done. That's simple enough, right?

[Julie Betsavalli]

There is an excellent chance that not only will this happen again, it's gonna be worse, and it's gonna be harder for her to come back from. They tell us that here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And Rusty decides to call it the fucking flu. And he says, well, like, okay, so we'll have another Kid. She'll be hospitalized again. Take, literally, take medicine and we'll be done. That's simple enough, right, Rusty? What about Andrea and her choices?

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know. And when does it end? You know what I mean? Like, at what point? Because the thing is, like, in a true part partnership, even if Andrea wanted more kids, of which there's really no evidence that she did, once again, like, according to what we're told in the documentary, they just agreed that they would, like, have as many kids as. As God gave them. It is incumbent on the partner to say to the one that wants and bears the children, honey, I love you.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I love you too much to see you go through this again.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We can adopt it to me.

[Patrick Hines]

One more kids will adopt them.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We have four children. And, like, that's what pisses me. Like, he's talking about this like it's an inevitability. Yeah, no, no, it's not right. Just listen to her. Don't minimize it. Don't call it something else. Don't call it the fucking flu. Listen to her and the doctors.

[Patrick Hines]

We're also, like, you mentioned this at the top of the episode. We're not told their religious take on contraception. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

It just doesn't exist in their world.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And he keeps using the word we. I'm like, who's we? Yeah, there is no we right now, Rusty.

[Patrick Hines]

And she's not obviously here to speak for herself.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. So now we jump back with Moses and we get this other violent story that we will go through quickly because there's too much, much trauma to get through in this.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, starts with him talking about how like. Like they're living on that bus. His whole family. His parents are barely making ends meet with their $40 a week rent at the campground. Like, that is. I mean, I grew up poor. Poor, poor, poor, poor. Even we had more money than that, you know?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like growing up poor is hard anyway. Growing up like this, it feels impossible

[Julie Betsavalli]

because they weren't a allowed to work.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It was all satanic. That's the thing.

[Patrick Hines]

David is doing it on the sly. He's got the company car and the credit card doing it on the slide.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like that's sneakily watching Wall Street.

[Patrick Hines]

Exactly.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And so, like, Moses's sister meets a new friend who's not part of the cult. And this new friend is also a girl. So Moses's sister makes the mistake of saying. Because she's a kid. Yeah. Makes the mistake of saying that she really Likes this new friend, and she really had fun with her friend.

[Patrick Hines]

I just want to slow down on that for one second, because it feels like this little girl is experiencing fun for the first time. Like, was I in her life?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

It's the first time she gets to, like, go play with a friend. By the way, parents. You put your kids at a campground full of families and kids and then lose your. When your kids make a friend, what'd she do?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Play tag for 20 minutes?

[Patrick Hines]

Right, exactly.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like, what. Like, what did she do?

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Julie Betsavalli]

And, like, because of this, she was

[Moses Storm]

in probably the most amount of trouble I've ever seen. And the word trouble is tame. She was beaten for in entire day.

[Julie Betsavalli]

His sister was beaten for an entire day. And I also think that part of it is like, you liked a girl. You said she was a girl. Like, the homophobia can't be ignored here.

[David]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

And Moses sort of lets us linger on that thought too, I think a

[Julie Betsavalli]

little bit, you know?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And it doesn't matter. It could have been any. The point is, anything and anyone outside the cult resulted in a beating for the children. And the mother was. It was an honor and a privilege for this fucking man to beat her

[Patrick Hines]

kids for an entire day. Yeah, for an entire day.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Well, that'll teach her. That's. That's what they're thinking.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't think too much about what that means. You know what I mean? Was it. I can't think too much about what it means.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, but the point is everyone's isolated. You can only be in the cult. You can only talk to people in the cult. You have to believe everything he says. The kids are being beaten. Everyone's living in fear, and the parents are monsters.

[Patrick Hines]

Can I just say to that? Michael is telling the parents that they need to beat their kids as hard as they can. He cites a Bible verse that says, bruise and scar away evil. Now I love look this up today according to my.

[Julie Betsavalli]

What's the real interpretation?

[Patrick Hines]

According to my best friend, Chat GPT. Oh, no,

[Julie Betsavalli]

you did not.

[Patrick Hines]

I. Gemini, I. Gemini, I did not. Chat GPT. Wait, do you hate. Do you hate the AI?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I fucking hate it.

[Patrick Hines]

Why?

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's destroying the planet. It's bullshit. Oh, my God. I hate it so much.

[Patrick Hines]

It's here. It's queer. It's going nowhere.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I hate it.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, if I. I'm reading a Read

[Julie Betsavalli]

books punch Nazi shirt. I'm not into the AI.

[Patrick Hines]

The Daily Today did a whole thing about, like, AI coming into communities and, like, the response to all that. I like. I get Look, I'm not here to defend AI, but I am here to say what I learned, which is that the translations of the Bible do have versions. Like, it doesn't say directly that anywhere, but there are translations that like, that are similar to that. But absolutely nobody believes that it literally means to beat and bruise and scar your.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So it's not even a direct quote?

[Patrick Hines]

Not anywhere near a direct quote.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Wonderful.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Typical.

[Patrick Hines]

Typical.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So, David, the. The frat bro and the yuppie.

[David]

When I graduated college, I was offered a job with General Mills. And I was excited, you know, because General Mills is a Fortune 500 company. On one hand, I had a company car and a salary and a bonus. But the other side, I'm feeling guilty, you know, because I've absorbed enough of Michael's teachings that I know a job is wrong. I know a job is cooperating with Satan.

[Patrick Hines]

And, like, the more successful he got, the more he hated himself.

[Julie Betsavalli]

A job is, quote, cooperating with Satan. Like, why? What are you saying?

[Patrick Hines]

Look, I'm going to say it again because I don't want to skip it when we get there. But, like, when. When Michael wants to take his entire family to Europe, his entire nine person family to Europe, David is the first person he calls for money. David's going to tell us he gave this guy 20 grand over the course of 10 years.

[Julie Betsavalli]

For the next two years, David leans into the cult even more to, quote, understand the path he needs to go down. Excuse me. As Fiona Applesau wisely said at the 1997 MTV Video Music Awards, go with yourself.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Also, this world is.

[Patrick Hines]

This world is.

[Julie Betsavalli]

But go with yourself, David.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. Yes. I mean, and, and that. I. I've said it too many times to say it again. I don't understand the disconnect. I don't understand why you can't just, like, have gone to college when the first in your family to graduate be thrilled to have this great job that was hard to get and just go live your life. I don't understand. And I'm not, like, again, like, I'm not mad at David. I'm mad at the dirt. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I know, I know. Let's talk about the witch and the wimp.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God, that could be the name of this podcast.

[Julie Betsavalli]

100% wimp with an H. And I'm like, why do these people insist on these weird, arbitrary spellings? Wait, how do you spell?

[Patrick Hines]

Is it W, I, M, P?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, I would have always spelled it

[Julie Betsavalli]

with an H. It's W, A and this. But, like, why? What's with the arbitrary misspelling? Zodiac did it. It's so annoying.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Anyway, it's some pamphlet from Michael that says all women are witches on some level. And I'm like, this is what I'm like. Oh, they.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Are they insult? That's not an insult.

[Patrick Hines]

Thank you.

[Rusty Yates]

Boo.

[Patrick Hines]

I love it.

[Julie Betsavalli]

It's always like some badass. But all jokes aside, he hates women, so he's teaching the cult in the

[David]

Witch and the Wimp. Michael says that all women, as a result of Eve's disobedience to God, inherit a witchcraft nature. This witchcraft nature seeks to control and dominate men. And if you are going to be a real man of God, you're not going to tolerate being ruled by a contentious woman, a witch.

[Patrick Hines]

Women are trying to dominate men like that.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And then whether we know it or not, Right?

[Patrick Hines]

So David, of course. So David reads the pamphlet, decides this is the word of God. He starts seeing dominating women who need to be controlled everywhere he looks. Peg Bundy, Roseanne. He would have hated Modern Family.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And, like, what's interesting is that, like, Rusty doesn't mention this. They have. Because we get, like, this is a clever editing moment. Because we get David saying, like, he's falling for this. And now seeing the world through this insane lens. And then it's Rusty being like, yeah, there I am an engineer at NASA.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

My wife's catatonic for the fourth year in a row and there was nothing I could do about it. And I'm like, rusty.

[Patrick Hines]

I know, I know. And the thing, the other thing that made me so insane here is we see a video of Michael and Rachel and their kids. And all Rachel wants to do, all she wants to do is tell the camera how wicked she is, how awful she is, that her husband has to remind her.

[Rusty Yates]

She.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We don't claim her.

[Patrick Hines]

She cannot get a word out.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We don't claim her.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, Michael is talking over her as she's trying to explain how awful she is and how grateful she is to be dominated by her husband.

[Julie Betsavalli]

She's still an idiot. She's still a dumb woman.

[Patrick Hines]

I could not believe what I was watching.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, he wouldn't even let her explain how awful she was for just having been born a woman.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Cause she's less than. So he'll do it better.

[Patrick Hines]

He had to mansplain how awful. Like, the whole thing was mind boggling. I'm out of nowhere.

[Julie Betsavalli]

You know, you can't. You can't be there and have that.

[Patrick Hines]

And, you know, it's not like we're trying to depict, you know, a walk in the garden kind of relationship.

[Rusty Yates]

You know, it's a constant. I have to.

[Patrick Hines]

Because of Adam and Eve's sin, I have to.

[Rusty Yates]

I constantly confront my wife with her nature.

[Moses Storm]

Constantly.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Cause it's wicked.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so deep. She's just trying to get a word in Edgewater to agree with him, by the way.

[Julie Betsavalli]

She's like, oh, honey, oh, tell the part about the other day, how I did that awful thing. Tell him. Go tell him. Tell him about the wickedness. And I'm like, we don't claim you, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Fuck you, Candace Cameron. Women being like, I love my husband being the head of the household. I know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

So by 1999, Andrea has stopped taking her medication because, remember, she was told, do not have children. You're putting yourselves and them at risk. Like, Andrea is suffering from postpartum depression in a very major way. The term postpartum psychosis is dropped. So they put her on medication. She stops taking the medication and gets pregnant with Mary.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And when Rusty again calls it the fucking flu and that it's a risk worth taking, I'm like, but it's not the flu, Rusty. You've been told by. By doctors that it's a clinical diagnosis of postpartum depression. The flu doesn't make you hold a fucking knife to your neck. Like, what is wrong with you?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I mean, I have read everything you sent me, and you are, like, the smartest. Oh, I'm gonna cry. You're, like, the smartest person I know.

[Rusty Yates]

But.

[Patrick Hines]

But I. I just, like, I think he knows now. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Does he?

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. How can he not? Like, his kids are dead, and I'm not letting him off the hook for all of the shit that he did at the time. But, like, he's gotta know now, you know? And, you know, he's not like, he's not sorry enough for the things that he did to her, but, like, his five kids are dead, but he could

[Julie Betsavalli]

do so much good here, and he's not. He could do so much better here and be a voice here and own some shit and Cause nothing. We say this a lot, right? He's not like. Well, back then, that's what I thought, and I didn't know any better, and now I do. He's not saying any of that kind of Doing this kind of derpy, folksy, aw, shucks kind of thing that is really wildly uncalled for here when everyone else we talk to is seeing it as Plain as day. David could be speaking about this in a very similar way as Rusty. Not the same because he didn't lose five children in this horrible way. But David is like, I fell for it. Like, I was. He was like, bro, I was half a yuppie and half a religious cult. Like, what is going on here? He can recognize it.

[Patrick Hines]

It's true. Because Rusty. No point takes accountability for, like, not insisting that they not have more kids

[Julie Betsavalli]

and for any bit of it. Not for the cult, not for, you know, like, there's nothing. There are so many times where Rusty. The work you can do here, you can be helping men understand partners understand. You can be raising money. You can be helping science. Like, there's so much you can do.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I got married within a year. Like, but.

[Patrick Hines]

But, like, how do you get out of bed every day? You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I guess in a whole lot of denial. I don't know. In Rusty's case, you're asking. I don't know.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I don't know the answer.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

But it's not. And maybe I have absolutely no right to say this, but it's not enough for me.

[Patrick Hines]

That's okay. I mean, I. I don't have any issue with that. I do. I do wonder if he's had to become a statue. You know what I mean?

[Julie Betsavalli]

I wonder.

[Patrick Hines]

The only way you can handle Luke, 5kids is by becoming a statue. And I do think that, like, we see him throughout all three episodes here, having to distance himself from culpability. You know, he also doesn't blame his wife. You know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

No.

[Patrick Hines]

But the choices that he made and that they made, you know, led us to where we are. I just struggle with. Like, he's a human being, you know?

[Julie Betsavalli]

No, I hear what you're saying. I think I'm just in a different place about it.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree. Yeah. And I'm like, David, because I'm half. And, you know, not even half. Like, here's all else. The last thing I'll say on this. Every time I look at him, I see a guy whose five children were murdered.

[Julie Betsavalli]

I totally understand that.

[Patrick Hines]

I think I just see that before I see anything else.

[Julie Betsavalli]

That's fair enough. You're approaching it in a different way.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

You know, and that's not me saying I have no.

[Patrick Hines]

Of course. Of course.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Like, please don't make me repeat it. Like, you know, how I feel about this is a fucking tragedy. But I think a lot of people are culpable here. And it's not just. And the answer isn't. Well, she was crazy. That's not where we are.

[Patrick Hines]

Nobody thinks that. And I think Rusty the loudest, you know?

[Julie Betsavalli]

Really?

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, yeah, yeah. I mean, we'll see him say it later. But like, I, I, I mean, if. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can move on.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Well, I just think the editing's interesting because as we. This might be a good time to end our first episode.

[Patrick Hines]

But as quick My Nervous Breakdown.

[Julie Betsavalli]

No, no, no, no, no. But like, because the editing here is interesting. Like, we keep getting. At first I was like, why are we interspersing? I'm like, oh, because it's showing, like, how clear it was for some people and how not clear it was for Rusty because he says all of that. And then like, David the yuppie gets a girlfriend.

[David]

About a year later, we became engaged. I slowly introduced her to Mike by having her listen to some of the tapes. Her presentation was that David, this guy sounds kind of weird. I think she even used the word creepy.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Yeah, that Michael dude is super fudgeing weird.

[Patrick Hines]

And as soon as she says that, she's got to go.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And somewhere between this moment and David giving the cult $20,000 for a trip to Europe, he gets engaged to this woman.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And like, the cult leader tells him not to get married. And David breaks up with this woman, Diane. And to this day, she's the one who got away.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And like an important thing. And we'll get much more into this in hours. Next episode. What Michael says to David is, you're not ready because you haven't been given a divine vision from God. And this is going to set David on the course for, like, all what comes next.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Right. And like, they don't know each other. This is all via the mail.

[Patrick Hines]

They like, remember David saw him preach one time on campus. They've never met in life, yet they've never met in. It's all been through correspondence and also

[Julie Betsavalli]

at the same time, just to wrap it up with Moses. He breaks up Moses his parents essentially beats the father down and convinces the mother to divorce him. Divorce him because he's a quote, wimp and she's the witch.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And I'm like, stop calling her that. She's not worthy.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Because she's part of this too. Everyone, we'll get to it next week.

[David]

She's all.

[Julie Betsavalli]

She's a major part of this too, that Rachel.

[Patrick Hines]

So fam episode 2 is available right now and ad free on the Patreon if you're a subscriber. Go check it out. If you want to subscribe to. Go Get It. Go get it. You're going to get over 300 full ad free bonus episodes there as well.

[Julie Betsavalli]

And like we said, at the end of our second episode will be a lot of the things that the documentary left out and resources for you to do more, like research on this case.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, yes, yes. Join the Facebook group. Join the discord.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Join everything.

[Patrick Hines]

Go in my DMs. Send me, like a heart emoji.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We got some shit to work out, all of us. We'll do it together on some way, on some platform. Somehow we'll get through it together.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, fam? We love you.

[Julie Betsavalli]

We love you. Stay safe, please.

[Patrick Hines]

Bye.

[Julie Betsavalli]

Bye.