Malice at the Palace

Summary

True Crime Obsessed - Episode: Malice at the Palace (March 18, 2025)

Hosted by Julian Buzzavalli and Patrick Hines

---

Introduction

In this special repeat episode of True Crime Obsessed, hosts Julian Buzzavalli and Patrick Hines delve into one of the most infamous incidents in NBA history: "Malice at the Palace." Originally aired on October 19, 2021, this episode revisits the chaotic events of November 19, 2004, when tensions between the Indiana Pacers and Detroit Pistons erupted into a full-blown melee, captured in the acclaimed 30 for 30 documentary.

Background: Setting the Stage

The episode begins with Julian and Patrick providing context about the stakes of the game. The Indiana Pacers, led by legends Reggie Miller and his sister Cheryl Miller, were vying for their first NBA championship. In contrast, the Detroit Pistons, with key players like Ben Wallace and Ron Artest (later known as Metta World Peace), were determined to defend their title.

Julian (00:25): "It's incredible. We get it all from the players themselves, too. And then, like, we dive into it. It's like, wow, that was really shitty."

Key Players and Dynamics

The hosts introduce the central figures:

• Jermaine O'Neal: A 17-year-old prodigy drafted into the NBA, bringing immense pressure to uplift his family's legacy.

• Reggie Miller: The seasoned veteran striving for his first championship, embodying leadership and championship aspirations.

• Ron Artest: Highlighted for his mental health struggles, Artest's anxiety and depression play a significant role in the unfolding drama.

Patrick (06:04): "If you actually knew what happened, you wouldn't even be asking questions."

The Game Unfolds

As the game progresses, tensions mount. The Pacers dominate early, but as the Pistons claw their way back, emotions flare both on and off the court. The pivotal moment occurs when a fan, identified as Charlie, throws a beer at Ron Artest, igniting the brawl.

Ron Artest (24:14): "I have no control over that emotion. And I'm really excited. Happy."

The Melee: Chaos Ensues

The aftermath of the beer-throw leads to a violent confrontation between players and fans:

• Artest's Reaction: Instead of retaliating immediately, Artest lies on the scorers' table in an attempt to de-escalate, a move that frustrates his teammates.

  Artest (26:35): "I never want to talk about the motherfucker who threw that beer."

• Ben Wallace's Fury: Feeling provoked by Artest's actions, Wallace pushes Artest, leading to a physical altercation.

  Ben Wallace (39:00): "I was supposed to get one with Jermaine and Donnie and Larry and Jamal Tinsley and Jeff Foster over there in Indiana, and I bailed out on them."

• Jermaine O'Neal's Accountability: Jermaine recognizes the gravity of the situation and takes responsibility for his role in the chaos.

  Jermaine (47:12): "There was never one second where I thought, I shouldn't be punished for this."

Media Portrayal and Racism

Julian and Patrick critique the media’s handling of the incident, highlighting racial biases and double standards compared to other sports like hockey. They emphasize how Black players were vilified, whereas similar behavior in predominantly white sports was often normalized.

Julian (53:13): "It's just a team versus, like, all of the Indiana. All of the Indians. You know what? They held them off."

Legal and NBA Fallout

The hosts discuss the severe repercussions faced by the players:

• Suspensions: Artest was suspended for the remainder of the season, while Jermaine O'Neal and Steven Jackson received lengthy suspensions as well.

• Legal Actions: John Green, the fan who threw the beer, faced felony assault charges, unlike other fans who received minor penalties.

Julian (55:02): "He's being charged with assault and battery."

Aftermath and Legacy

The episode wraps up by reflecting on the lasting impact of the Malice at the Palace:

• Reggie's Championship Snub: Despite Reggie Miller's dedication, the Pacers failed to secure the championship, leading to his retirement.

• Ron Artest’s Redemption: Artest later joined the Los Angeles Lakers, where he eventually won a championship, attempting to rebuild his legacy.

Patrick (57:48): "It cost Reggie the championship, and he retires at the end of that season."

Conclusion

Julian and Patrick conclude the episode by emphasizing the importance of understanding the full context behind such high-stakes events and criticizing the media's skewed narratives. They advocate for holding everyone accountable, not just star players, to foster a fairer and more truthful representation of incidents.

Julian (61:44): "They just let it happen. It's a team versus, like, all of the Indiana. You know what? They held them off."

Through humor, sass, and heartfelt discussion, the hosts provide a comprehensive overview of the Malice at the Palace, shedding light on the complexities and human emotions that fueled one of sports' most notorious brawls.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ron Artest (06:04): "If you actually knew what happened, you wouldn't even be asking questions."

• Ben Wallace (39:00): "I bailed out on them."

• Jermaine O'Neal (47:12): "There was never one second where I thought, I shouldn't be punished for this."

• Patrick Hines (57:48): "It cost Reggie the championship, and he retires at the end of that season."

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Timestamp Highlights:

• 00:25: Introduction to the episode and its focus on the Malice at the Palace.

• 06:04: Artest discusses his lack of control over emotions.

• 24:14: Artest expresses frustration over discussing the incident.

• 26:35: Artest declares he will never talk about the beer-throwing fan again.

• 39:00: Ben Wallace discusses his feelings of cowardice for leaving teammates.

• 53:13: Critique of media portrayal and racial biases.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key points, discussions, and insights from the "Malice at the Palace" episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the events and their ramifications without needing to reference the original podcast.

Transcript

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Hi, Julian Buzzavalli.

[Patrick Hines]

Hello. Patrick Hines.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Fam. We're doing that thing that we too, almost never now, but we're giving you a classic episode as a little bit of a repeat this week. But if you repeat as a repeat.

[Patrick Hines]

As a repeat.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But it's an oldie and a goodie. Tell them what we're doing.

[Patrick Hines]

So this originally aired October 19, 2021.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Wow.

[Patrick Hines]

Which I think is also. I think we need to start saying when they originally aired, because people are like, don't you know that I'm. That was years ago. That was a lifetime ago.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Anyway, it's Malice at the Palace. It's one of those 30 for 30 docs.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We could have been. We would have been doing this over the phone.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, we would have.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You were probably at home when we recorded this.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Like, this was all about Reggie Miller and his amazing sister Cheryl.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, Cheryl. This was the quarantine times, so we probably weren't in Perfect. But we loved this documentary. I always love it when we do a sports because I have no idea what's going on. You're trying to explain it to me. But, like, this episode is wild. It's wild, wild, wild, wild.

[Patrick Hines]

It's incredible. Incredibly well done. We get it all from the players themselves, too. And then, like, we dive into it. It's like, wow, that was really shitty. But all of the people are such good storytellers who are in it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. Still, when we meet people on the street, they will talk to us about Malice at the Palace.

[Patrick Hines]

There's one moment I love. I'll tell you about it at the end. I don't want to ruin it for you. I love it so much to this day. I quote it and mention it and it's in my ears. But I'll tell you at the end.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

All right, enjoy this episode. And we will. We'll give you a quick buy on the way out. All right, girl. Can I say what we're talking about today?

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, please?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We're talking about Malice at the palace, you guys. It's from the Untold series on Netflix. And I gotta tell you a couple things. Number one, Netflix reached out to us and was like, I know you guys don't like the sports, but I think you might like this. And we're like, no. And then they're like, no, that queen's really gonna be into this one. And so we're like, all right, we'll watch it. And now I'm obsessed.

[Patrick Hines]

And we're doing a couple more.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

But we're gonna Split them up. Cause sports is sports.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Are we doing the Caitlyn Jenner one? No, I wanna.

[Patrick Hines]

Is it true crime? Y.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

No. Can we do it on the Patreon? As a one off?

[Patrick Hines]

I guess.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Not a fan.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Who's a fan?

[Patrick Hines]

Not a fan.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

No one's a fan. I just want to talk about it.

[Patrick Hines]

All right.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I'm really distressed about the idea of covering Caitlyn Jenner.

[Patrick Hines]

I just. Why? But if you want to do it, you know what? I'll do anything for you. But we said it now, so.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Fuck, totally.

[Patrick Hines]

I got to do it.

[Ron Artest]

That night had a lasting effect. It ignited everything. I'm never talking about this shit again. And you get that on camera.

[Patrick Hines]

A fight broke out between the Pacer team and the fans in the stand.

[Ron Artest]

It's like a powder cat from the.

[Ben Wallace]

Corner of my eye. I see it coming. Some people have control. I don't.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Artist is in the stands.

[Ron Artest]

They want to blame us. These guys are thugs.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Fans have such an emotional investment. There is a darkness there. The NBA was worried about their perception.

[Patrick Hines]

It cost all of us everything.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The palace had a VHS tape for each and every camera.

[Ben Wallace]

I want the story out there. Go frame by frame.

[Ron Artest]

If you actually knew what happened, you wouldn't even be asking questions.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

All right, girl, look. We learn on screen text. On November 19, 2004, there was an incident between players and fans at an NBA game. I feel like they're like, you know what? That Patrick Hines might watch this. Explain it to him like he's in kindergarten.

[Patrick Hines]

Our editor, Matt, who we love, watched this happen live.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

He did.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes. But the thing about that is more on screen text says the raw footage was not made available to the public until now.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You guys, it is fucking bananas.

[Patrick Hines]

This whole thing is like, here's what actually happened. So we open with what Matt, our editor and so many people saw, especially because it was played on, like, ESPN every 10 seconds.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And the thing is, it's like. It's a mix between, like, us, like, seeing it and then also the players who were a part of it, watching it, like, on laptops. And every one of them, like, slams their computer shut. They're like, I can't watch this anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. One of them, Stephen Jackson, like, the.

[Ron Artest]

Last fucking time you can ask me about this shit.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you getting this? I am never talking about this again. This is the last time.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We get more of that outburst later. Oh, it's the best.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, this. We get, like, this opening montage of, like, what the public saw. The press being horrible, like, super racist. Calling them thugs and all the players being like, fuck this shit. Why am I. Why did I sign the release forms to be here?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I gotta tell you guys, the word T H U G. I'm not even gonna say it.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I actually get, like, emotional when I think about that word.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I hate that fucking word so much. I can't believe how emotional I just got when I spelled it out. You're gonna a lot in this episode. I don't believe in that word. And I hate that word. And I want to be on record. And it's a little, like, stab in my chest every time I hear it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Well, good, because it's, like, shitty. It's a very shitty thing.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Henceforth. Call it the T word. I don't fucking like that word.

[Patrick Hines]

Great, then bleep me out just saying it. I don't want to be an asshole. The press being horrible, like, super racist calling them and all the players being like, fuck this shit. Why? I just said it, but I was quoting them. It is a melee. It's like, fans.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That's a great word.

[Patrick Hines]

It is. Speaking of good words. But these, like, entitled as fuck fans, which I'm going to get on my soapbox about later on, like, and we need some of these people, like, popcorn and beer on players.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's just, like, insane because it begins at the end. It, like, begins with, like, players being dragged off the court during this fight.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And just this chaos and, like, people being taken away in stretchers. And I'm like, this is a sports ball. It's not the fucking Tonys.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Calm down. Well, speaking of which, I was like, my first note is, oh, my God, they're dragging these sports ball players backstage back.

[Patrick Hines]

I have backstage written everywhere. I think it's a locker room. Who knows their dressing room? It's backstage henceforth. So we were like. Our main people Here are Jermaine O'Neill.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Stephen Jackson and Metta World Peace, aka Ron Artest.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Each one of them fucking hotter than the next.

[Patrick Hines]

And Reggie Miller is here, too. The only adult in the room. The only adult in the room is Reggie Miller. Let me say something about Ron Artest, Metta World Peace.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I was really about 20 minutes of cooking for me to Understand.

[Patrick Hines]

I was really concerned that this was a dead name situation. And I don't want to be a dick about it. It's not really because Artest has, like, tried to change his name to, like, Queensbridge after where he's from in New York or, like, so hood now. He is Meta Sandyford. Artest. So he changes his name a lot. And I wanted to be sensitive about that, but Ron Artest was Ron Artest. They call him Ron. They call him Ron Artest. They call him Artest. Even the captions say Artest. Like when he speaks.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Can we just call him Ron? Because that's what they called him then.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, but I just wanted everyone, like, I did my research. It's not a dead name situation. We would have been very sensitive to that.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Of course. And explain what a dead name is.

[Patrick Hines]

A dead name is when someone changes their name, whether they're trans or they're just going through any kind of transformation. And you don't call them that because they're not that person anymore.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Exactly. It's like. It's like the Caitlyn Jenner and her dead name that begins with a B. And we don't say that.

[Patrick Hines]

And we don't say that because she's Caitlyn. Now. We don't like her, but we respect her name. See how all these things can be true at once?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's fun. We gotta do the Caitlyn on the paints. Oh, God.

[Patrick Hines]

It's gonna be a lot of this. It's gonna be a lot of me being like, I don't like her. Like, I respect her stuff, but I just don't like her. I think she's a problem. I think she brings the whole thing backwards, girl.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

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[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's made for families. Truly. Kids are learning how to save, how to invest, how to spend wisely. And let me tell you, it's never too early.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I gotta tell you, I say this all the time. I was given no financial training whatsoever. So now we use the chores feature, and Daisy does her chores every week. We set it up to pay her automatically. She gets her allowance every weekend. Every weekend. We look at the amount of money she has in her and she can decide what she wants to spend it on.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's for kids Daisy's age, a little younger, a little older. So these kids and teens can build money, confidence, and skills in a fun, accessible way. Like, they have these games, too. So it's not like. My point is, money can be scary.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Learning about it can feel really overwhelming. So when you have, like the chores feature or a fun game, it just feels more accessible and then you gain confidence.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. Just talking to my kid about money in any way makes me feel like a great Parent. Also, you can customize the debit card. We got a picture of golden on ours. Obviously, it's the cutest thing ever, but this is why millions of parents and kids are learning about money on greenlight already.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it's easy, it's convenient. You wanna raise financially smart kids.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

God, don't we ever, right? She's gonna take care of me in the end, you know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Gotta have enough money over there, Daisy.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, God.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So, fam, start your risk free greenlight trial [e-mail] TCO that's greenlight.com TCO to get started. Greenlight.com TCO that's right. Get golden on your debit card.

[Patrick Hines]

Seriously, how cute.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So the first person we meet is Jermaine O'Neal. And, you know, we get his backstory. He grew up in South Carolina.

[Ron Artest]

You know, they flew the Confederate flag on the state house until as recently as three or four years ago.

[Patrick Hines]

And he kind of looks like, do you see? Do you see what I'm dealing with here? And he says, you know, basketball was a safe haven for him. He was incredible at it. Here's how incredible he was.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, in high school.

[Patrick Hines]

He's a senior in high school. He's 17 years old. He says, he's like, I got my driver's license like a week ago.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He is drafted into the NBA.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Can we just talk about this for one second? Because they show a picture of him at his high school graduation. You guys, they're standing for the high school graduation. He's literally a foot and a half taller than everybody else. Like, it's unreal that a human being can be that tall, but his face.

[Patrick Hines]

Looks like a 17 year old, but he looks like an NBA player. Like, he skipped college basketball, sports, ball, aside, jokes, blah, blah, blah. That is insane to be a professional basketball player when you're 17 years old and you learned how to drive last Tuesday.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

This is going to be one of those episodes where the husbands who usually turn us off are like, no, no, tell that queen that this is how it happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Banging their head against the wall. Why do you listen to this trash? They're asking their partners.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But the thing, one of the things he says, and we hear this a lot from these players.

[Ron Artest]

Jermaine says, I'm the piece that can change the bloodline of my family. I'm the piece that can break the chains of things that been going on over and over and over and over again. I'm that piece, he's saying.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And we hear this from the Other players too. His gift, his talent is the thing that's gonna like, take his family out of poverty and break that cycle.

[Patrick Hines]

Lots of pressure for a 17 year old kid.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You know what, though? Like, it's also a beautiful thing, like the fact that, like, to hear him say that was just kind of. It's so crazy too, because all of these men are putting all of these high pressure situation situations and most of them handle it pretty well. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And he says, you know, look like he was super excited to be a 17 year old kid. He's drafted to the Portland Trail Blazers. And he's like, yeah, but they booed the shit out of me because they were like, you're 17, you're coming from like your high school gym to the NBA.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But he says it, he goes, but.

[Ron Artest]

Also remember the boos.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, booze like anti cheering, not booze like vodka.

[Patrick Hines]

And he was the youngest.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And I looked when I watched and I was like, it's like noon. Is it too early? I guess it's too early.

[Patrick Hines]

Most certainly is not.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

Always on time. But the thing is, he was the best his high school had ever seen. And now he's in the NBA.

[Ron Artest]

And he was like, I became the youngest player at the time to play in the NBA game. Now I'm going from being the best player on the court in high school to being the fourth best person at my position on my own team.

[Patrick Hines]

I was the fourth best person in my position on my team. He was on the bench the whole time.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Can you. And there's at one point he talks about sitting on the bench and crying.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, I mean, I understand being frustrated. Like, then why am I here? Like, let me play then. But I know, I know, I know the sports ball people are like, I understand all sides of it, but it's like I'm like 17. Like, let me just do it. Yeah, he liked me for a second.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But he says, you know, something has to change. And this is when he gets traded to Indiana and their team is called the Pacers.

[Patrick Hines]

They're called the Pacers. And now he gets to play with Reggie Miller.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. So here's the thing. We learn about this guy, Reggie Miller, and everyone's like, this guy is a fucking legend.

[Ron Artest]

And Jermaine says, when I got the call that I got traded from Portland to Indiana, I was so excited because it was an opportunity to play with Reggie Miller. I know he's a true competitor, he's a legend. And I told him right away, I said, look, put me Right now, next.

[Patrick Hines]

To his locker, he wants to learn every. He wants to be a sponge next to Reggie.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I get that, and I appreciate that. I just thought, Jermaine, that's kind of like a prime piece of real estate.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

How do you just get that? Cause you asked for it.

[Patrick Hines]

And at the time, like, Reggie Miller was a legend, so I'm sure everyone wanted to be next to Reggie.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That's what I'm saying. Also, we meet Reggie. He's gorgeous, but he's also so calm. The story that you guys are about to hear is so bananas.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And Reggie Miller tells this story in such a calm way. His energy and his aura is, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Infectious, and he's an incredible basketball player. But you know who's even better than Reggie?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Larry Bird.

[Patrick Hines]

His sister, Cheryl.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, no. Really?

[Patrick Hines]

Cheryl Miller is, like, a fucking legend, and Reggie is like, she's better than me.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah, she.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Did she play in the wnba?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Yeah. And you see her at the end.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, that's his sister at the end.

[Patrick Hines]

So we meet Donnie Walsh, who's the president of the Indiana Pacers, and he's.

[Ron Artest]

Like, Reggie was the guy that really put the Indiana Pacers on a trajectory they had not been on before. He really wanted to win and did more than anybody anywhere in attempting to get the championship.

[Patrick Hines]

He wanted to win a championship, and he should have. He was that good. He's been playing for 18 years. Like, not that he's owed it, but, like, he deserves it. He does.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. And that's important because Reggie has never had one. He came really close. In his 14th year on the team, the Pacers were playing the Lakers, and they didn't win. And, you know, and everyone was like, fuck. Like, this is Reggie's 14th year. Like, how many more chances does he have? People want to do it for the Pacers, and they want to do it for Indiana, but they want to do it for Reggie of all.

[Patrick Hines]

For Reggie. And they realize, like, time's kind of running out. 14 years. What's going on? So the Pacers are like, okay, let's get some younger guys on the team. And Reggie's all for this. He's like, let's shake it up a little bit. Let's get some new people in here.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I want to say the thing that I cannot get over, going through this documentary. Nobody talks about how good they are. I know every single player we meet talks about how amazing all the other players are.

[Patrick Hines]

And they do it a lot.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. And it's not forced. Like, they are in Awe. It is the true embodiment of why team sports are so important.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Heard me say that. I believe that that's true. Don't cut the drama club just to make the team sports happen. Drama club is also important.

[Patrick Hines]

So many things can be true at once. That's the theme today.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But I mean, it is very much like, they didn't care so much about the individual glory. It was good enough for them to be on the team, surrounded by the other talented people. And that is fucking incredible. It's incredible to see.

[Patrick Hines]

I agree. And so the Pacers are like, let's get some younger players. So they pull a U. They go to 100 and get Jermaine, the actual youngest person in the NBA. Reggie's like, okay, cool.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You gotta be 14 year olds or that one's as young as Reggie's like.

[Patrick Hines]

Shit, I do have a lot of pull around here. I say youngest, they get the 17 year old kid. And the thing is, like, Now Jermaine is 20 and he's still super young. Right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But he's just like, they fucking gutted that team. And then we see him in an interview being like 100% certain that you.

[Ron Artest]

Guys won't be disappointed at all. I think you'd be very, very happy that the trade was made because I can bring a lot to the table.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I swear to God, I could do a good job. I promise I'll be good.

[Patrick Hines]

Because he's never been a starter. And so now the Pacers are gonna start him. And Jermaine's like, can you hold on for like two seconds? I'm no slouch. Like, I'm a hard fucking worker. Just give me a second. I've been getting shit on by everyone for three years, since I was 17. Just let me do it. Reggie says it's okay.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Jermaine says something that I think is gonna stay with me for the rest of my life. What?

[Ron Artest]

He says, you have to outwork people. You just gotta be a savage.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That is the words I live by. I wake up every single day a B minus student. I just like, work very, very, very fucking hard.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And like, what I lack for talent, I try to make up for in work effort. Reggie had both, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Reggie was a leader and he sees a lot of himself in Jermaine. He's a on and off the court.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And Reggie's like, jermaine was on the.

[Ben Wallace]

Verge of becoming a superstar in our.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Game and he was becoming the face.

[Ron Artest]

Of the Indiana Pacers.

[Ben Wallace]

He's definitely Showing signs that he can carry this franchise.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And what I mean by that is not necessarily numbers he does, but I think the leadership that he brings to.

[Ben Wallace]

A lot of the younger guys that are in here.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing is, because Reggie's, like, a genius, it's starting to happen. Jermaine's, like, killing it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. And Reggie goes, I don't care about the glory. I wanted to see these young guys do the bulk of the work, and I wanted my fucking championship.

[Patrick Hines]

So, like, Reggie's thrilled. Reggie, like, right now, Reggie's thrilled. There's a range. But today, right this minute, Reggie's thrilled. He's like, I can taste that fucking championship. I want it. I want it. But they need more rebuilding. Jermaine's amazing, but he can't do it all by himself, Right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. And that's when Walsh, the owner, is like, look, my job is to try to, like, put players together who are going to be the magic, like, work really well together. It doesn't always happen in one season, but, like, that's what you're always aiming for, and I get that. Like, you try to assemble a team that's going to be the great.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? And they all have very specific roles, so they want the best forward or.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The fullback or the best tight end.

[Patrick Hines]

Tight end, great.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We nailed it. We did the basketball.

[Patrick Hines]

We know that's football. Get off our backs. So they get Ron Artest, AKA Metta World Peace. And he's on the news throwing all this shade because I guess he was just on the Chicago Bulls. And he's like, it feels good to.

[Ben Wallace]

Be here after a couple years in Chicago. Losing. It just was hard, you know? Just want to bring that winning effort.

[Patrick Hines]

So nice to be here after losing all that time in Chicago. Thrilled to be here in Indiana. And I'm like, oh, okay, Ron. And so Ron Artest became. When this happened, he was the villain in this whole story. And now we get what was really happening from him. And he explains right off the bat a little bit about the state of his mental health at the time, which.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Is kind of amazing. Like, he was in a very tough place. He suffered from anxiety and depression. I was saying, I'm like, are we supposed to not like this guy? Because I kind of like him.

[Patrick Hines]

I think the whole point of this is, like, here's what really happen, and meet the guys that are from this edited footage of ESPN and see the whole thing and see the whole story.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And so Ron Artest is very in touch with his mental health. Like, he's very in touch and on top of it, like he's constantly working.

[Patrick Hines]

On it and every time I see him on screen I'm like, that's someone who's doing the work in and out of therapy. He speaks like someone who is in therapy still and is like walking the walk and talking the talk of the therapy. Right. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Ollie is back. This is that protein packed dog food. Did you know that feeding your dog could add two and a half years to your pup's life?

[Patrick Hines]

That reason alone.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Okay.

[Patrick Hines]

But look, this food is made in US kitchens with high quality human grade ingredients.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So Ollie's food contains no fillers, no preservatives, just real actual food.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So here's how it works, fam. You introduce your pup, you fill out a 30 second quiz and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight, activity level and other health involved.

[Patrick Hines]

So then Ollie crunches the numbers and recommends the right recipes and daily portions for your precious pup based on hundreds of thousands of real dog results.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Now for the first timers, you're going to get a welcome kit. Ollie will send out your pup's first box with two weeks worth of meals and a guide on how to gradually switch over to their new diet. I didn't know that that was necessary.

[Patrick Hines]

I cannot stress how important it is your dog can get so sick. You can't just like if they're used to something for even a few weeks.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

You can't just change it overnight.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Also, did you know that Ollie is the only fresh dog food that comes with unlimited routine health screening so you can get your pup on track to living their healthiest, happiest life.

[Patrick Hines]

I love Ollie because they want your dog to be getting all the food they want because dogs love food and they also want them to live as long as possible. So I see no issues here.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So, fam, dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food.

[Patrick Hines]

Head to ollie.comtco to tell them all about your dog and use code TCO to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Plus they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back.

[Patrick Hines]

That's O l l I e.com tco and enter code tco to get 60% off your first box.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That's a huge discount.

[Patrick Hines]

I know.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Just do it, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

Your pup will thank you. What have you done for them lately? They love you unconditionally.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

They do. They just want to wake you up at three in the morning for belly rubs.

[Patrick Hines]

It's enough already.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

And if you don't do it, you're a monster. So now, like, Ron Artest, again, incredibly hard worker, badass, like, amazing at what he does. And even Jermaine O'Neal was like, I thought I was the hardest worker. Like, and then I see Ron Artest.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So again, and it's like cutting back. These guys hate each other now in real life, but then cutting back and forth, and they're like, no, he was the better. No, he was the better one. No, he was amazing. No, he was amazing.

[Patrick Hines]

Right? And once again, Reggie's thrilled because they're like, he's like another piece of the puzzle. The championship's getting closer. I can feel it. And Reggie's like, every team needs a Ron or Test.

[Ben Wallace]

We need a guy that everyone's a.

[Ron Artest]

Little bit afraid of.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone needs a guy that everyone's like, a little bit afraid of.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Every team needs that.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Have I said that Ron's really sexy?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You know, I like a guy who's in touch with what's going on in their mental health and is okay to talk about it. Let's normalize that. That's as fuck.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It is sexy as fuck. But then it immediately cuts to, like, all of these images of Ron and all the fights he gets into on the courts. He's just, like, throwing his weight around a lot. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And he's like, okay, look, I always had a chip on my shoulder. Okay? I saw everyone as an enemy. He just had, like, a lot going on. Like Ron artest and Jermaine O'Neal. Based on what their positions were on the court, they were like the dynamic duo. And Reggie goes.

[Ben Wallace]

It was like poetry in motion at times when they were on the court.

[Patrick Hines]

It was like poetry in motion on the court. Reggie's reliving it. There are flowers everywhere.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And they say, like, Jermaine's like, we were blazing through teams like, they're getting to that fucking championship game. They just said they're knocking them down every time they play.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. So now they have the best record in the league.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And they make it to the Eastern Conference finals, which turns out, not a conference. It's not a conference at all.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's not a conference.

[Patrick Hines]

No, it's not at all. When I say Eastern Conference finals, you can hear it in my voice that I don't know what that is.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

I know. It's like a step before the championship. I think you win the. The Eastern Conference, and then whoever wins the other conference that they go to the finals.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I wonder why they don't just call it it a game. It's not a conference.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Do you know that we're being featured in the sports section of Apple Podcasts.

[Patrick Hines]

Right now because of our Tanya and Nancy episode? So it's like, we'll put you there, but we're going to do the gayest way we possibly could.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I'm sending this to Apple as soon as it comes out. More for the sports sex.

[Patrick Hines]

Because the other episode is about this documentary. There's room for all of us. Apple.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Patrick Hines]

Don't you want to hear our take on it?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's 2004. They're at these Eastern Conference finals, which is not a conference at all. It's just a basketball game. And so Jermaine's like, this is what ignited everything.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

So it's the Indiana Pacers and the Detroit Pistons.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Right? And they're like, the Pistons are like another amazing team. And they say whoever wins this game is going to win the championship because.

[Patrick Hines]

That'S how good the team was. Right? They just knew, like, they're just going to beat the best teams in the.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Right. Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So Ron Artest commits a foul at the worst possible time in the game.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And it's weird because I had to watch it five times to even see it, because I feel like basketball is one of those games. I feel like the soccer players do this where, like, you bump into somebody by accident and then you throw yourself on the ground and roll like you're in a ton of pain.

[Patrick Hines]

I literally. I have in my notes also, the player on the Pistons flew himself into the air and onto the court, but whatever, right? And it's like, if the foul is the foul and they all do this, even Reggie's done it. Yeah, watch. Watch. Reggie Miller versus the New York Knicks. My Reggie, he does it all. He's like, what? Who, me? He's all about the theater. It's so great. So they do it. They do it all the time. But it's very, like, just let the foul be the foul. You don't have to throw yourself onto the court. Give me a break.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The guy's face down, not breathing, and he's like, no. It's like, I'd be great at basketball.

[Patrick Hines]

You'd be, oh, my God, like, so great. And also just the worst.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Like, why is this game nine hours?

[Patrick Hines]

What you like, Ron Artest would be like, I'm going to elbow. I don't Want to. He's on my team. But I feel my elbow going for the foul. Oh, no, I fell over.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Patrick, are you doing that in slow motion?

[Patrick Hines]

What? It's just. Ow. No. So regardless, this foul leads to the Pistons winning the game, right? They win the Conferen Finals, and they go to the actual NBA Finals, and.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

They win, and they win the final. Like, Detroit is champions.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's also, like, a horrible way to lose. It's like game six. It's a stupid foul. It could have been avoided. It just sucks.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Ron, like, taking the drama to the next level. I feel like Ron and I would have gotten along. He tries to retire. Well, he's like, fuck. That foul is my fault. I can't go back out there. You know what? I'm retiring.

[Patrick Hines]

So here's the thing. Like, now, a lot of this stuff is like, oh, that's what was happening. So Ron Artest today is like, I.

[Ben Wallace]

Have so much anxiety all the time. You know, you get that heart pumping. And it was like something I couldn't control at that time. Every day. Every day. So I was like, I really do need to try to figure out what's wrong, you know, why are you not happy around basketball and your teammates? You know, why are you not happy? Figure it out. Figure it out.

[Patrick Hines]

I was really going through it. I needed to take a step back. But what he does is he's like, I know I have six years left on the contract I just signed. I'm retiring. Like, undo my contract.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And they're like, undo that.

[Patrick Hines]

And also, it's like, just for anybody.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Who needs to hear it, that's not how contracts work.

[Patrick Hines]

So he decides to do this, like, like a month into the next season. He doesn't wait. Like, he waits until the season starts. And Reggie's like, we have six and a half months to go of the season. Like, you can't just ditch practice, right? And so Ron Artist, he's literally like.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I gotta go do my band, though.

[Patrick Hines]

I gotta work on my music. I'm a grown man. I can do what I want. And what we learn now is that he was, like, struggling with anxiety. But it's a bad look.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's a bad look. And it's like, he's so in touch with it now. Why didn't you just. And I mean, I know the answer to this question is because he couldn't. But, like, if you just told people what you were struggling with, because this is where we get the round robin of all the players being like, we.

[Ron Artest]

Knew he had a Psychiatrist that traveled everywhere we went. We knew he had sessions that he had to go with and have with her. We knew that much. But we were never, ever told that he had a certain issue, medical issue.

[Patrick Hines]

His therapist came with him on the road. That's amazing.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That's fucking. And everyone really respects it. But then he does shitty things. He tells the entire team that he's got a death in the family so he can't play. And then he goes and presents at the Source, the Source Awards. And he's like, I don't even do the Cable Aces.

[Patrick Hines]

It's like. Like, I'm sure. I'm sure there's an.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We're gonna get caught.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm sure there was an explanation that four days earlier, there was a death in the family, maybe. And then four. But you gotta tell somebody.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And then, like. And then, though, we see this clip of him, and you could. It's so easy to see that he was struggling. So it's. It's Ron Artest, and it's just his. And, like, all those cameras and the mics and everything in his face, and his eyes are darting around, and he's looking for a way out. And it's like, this is someone in the throes of an anxiety attack. You can see it in the press.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But it's also cutting back to his teammates. Like, Jer Kane is, like, playing, doing the work. And he'll do, like, a little press conference after a game, and all anybody wants to ask about is Ron. And he's finally, like, I'm not gonna.

[Ron Artest]

Ask any more questions about Ron. Ron doesn't want to be here. Ron doesn't matter anymore. It's about the Pacers. It's about the players that suit up every single day. I'm tired of asking. Answering questions about Ron.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Fuck Ron. Ron doesn't want to fucking be here. I'm not answering any more questions about that guy. That guy's presenting with Paula Abdul at the Source Award.

[Patrick Hines]

It was Petey Pablo, actually, but.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And then he, like, doesn't know what he's doing. Like, come on, Ron.

[Patrick Hines]

Saying, I had depression, I had anx.

[Ben Wallace]

He goes, look, some people have control over that emotion. I don't. And I'm really excited. Happy. I just dumped to somebody. Game winner. That emotional level is not a good place for me, positively or negatively. You still. You have no control of that.

[Patrick Hines]

I had no control over my emotions, good or bad. And that's a really unhealthy place to be. And then cut to Reggie, who's like, the Only adult in the room. He's like, they were this amazing double act, Ron and Jermaine, and they weren't getting along. And, like, it was all unsettling. And just like, I just want my fucking championship. I'm Reggie goddamn Miller.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

He's saying, like, Reggie's like, I could not get the two of them to understand the opportunity they were throwing away.

[Patrick Hines]

Just not getting it. They're just not getting it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And then it cuts to Ron. He's like, I never fucking listened to that guy anyway. I never listen to Reggie. If you try to give me mentorship or leadership, I just think, bust his ass in practice. Run.

[Patrick Hines]

So speaking of that championship, the coach is building this championship team, and there's one missing piece.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And that missing piece is Steven Jackson. And Reggie is thrilled again. And I love Steven Jackson.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Steven Jackson is super hot. And he's like, just like another talented young guy.

[Patrick Hines]

And he loves a challenge. He makes love to the challenge.

[Ron Artest]

I'm ready for a challenge. I'm ready for it. That's what I live for. I make love to pressure, normalize.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Not saying things like that.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, Steven Jackson rules, though.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Unless he doesn't. I don't know. But in this, he's great. I just. I love him in this. And so Reggie is, like, perfect. He's a hard worker. He's, like, talented beyond belief. He's got an edge, everything Reggie wants.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And Steven is like, look, I met Ron. I knew the guy was a little off, but I don't fucking judge anybody. I smoke pot all day.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, who cares? He's like, he's one hell of a basketball player. That's really all I cared about. Like, I didn't give a shit.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

One important thing he tells us, he's.

[Ron Artest]

Like, I'm a lawyer guy. Like, one thing about it. If I'm with you, I'm with you. We shoot this and we go to a bar afterwards. Somebody say something, I'm going to be the first one to stand up. That's just how I am. If I'm with you, I'm with you.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Just put a pin in that because it's coming back.

[Patrick Hines]

And the example he gives, he says to the film crew, he's like, look, today, like, let's just say, for example, after we wrap this and we go out to the bar and someone tries to start shit, I'm going to be the first guy having her back. I was like, he's saying this to the film crew, which is amazing. He's like, we're going to go through this journey together. Getting drinks after.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

May God help the person who tries to fuck with you. As if anyone's gonna fuck with them when 6, 9, Stephen Jackson is sitting next to you.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, my God. And then Reggie says, like, going into that season, there are only a handful of teams that could say, we've got a shot at the championship. This was us. That was our fucking year.

[Patrick Hines]

Reggie's thrilled.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Netflix, I love you for making us do this. I'm so happy.

[Patrick Hines]

It's so. It's so good.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I've never been happier to talk about sports. Except for that time that we covered Nancy and Tonya.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Which. Which again. Apple. Hi. Welcome. So now it's November 19th, 2004. Once again, it's the Detroit Pistons versus the Indiana Pacers.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And remember, they're saying that, like, the rivalry started last fucking year when, like, that foul happened. And then, like, Detroit went on to win the championship. Like, this is a supercharged game. And they're playing it in Detroit. So, like, the Indiana is going in there, the underdog.

[Patrick Hines]

They're playing it at the Palace.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

They're playing it at the Palace. And Reggie's like, it's not, like, not. It's just, like, not the Palace Theater on Broadway.

[Patrick Hines]

No. Quite a difference.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's a very different environment, you guys.

[Patrick Hines]

And Reggie's like, don't get it twisted. We were there to make a statement. Like, we were there not just to play, but, like, totally demolish them.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Then we meet Timothy Smith. He's the director of operations for the palace, and he is very serious.

[Patrick Hines]

But he also, like, makes some moves, Tim, because he's like, anytime you put 20,000 people together for four or five hours and they're drinking, the stage is.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Set somewhere, somebody's gonna have an issue.

[Patrick Hines]

There's gonna be a problem somewhere. Sometimes they're big problems, sometimes they're small problems. But it's like, Timmy.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. You're in charge of all of this.

[Patrick Hines]

You knew. This is, like, years plus in the making. The Pistons, the Pacers, they're back. Can you be a little aware? And here's the. Here's what also gets me, if I may, Timmy, now that I'm on my soapbox the night of the game, he tells us about this fan who I swear to God, I.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Are you talking about Charlie H. Flames.

[Patrick Hines]

On the side of my face. Because he was like, you know, we'd had enough of Charlie and his shenanigans. Yeah, He's. Charlie's a season ticket holder, and Timmy is like, we're going to Take his season tickets away from him at that game, but yet he lets Charlie enjoy. Enjoy the game, even though he's pulling all this bullshit shenanigans. Yeah, I don't understand that. I don't understand this.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I don't understand it either. But now we fucking meet. Charlie. Charlie.

[Patrick Hines]

How does that feel? Charlie?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Boo. This fucking piece of shit guy, he says it was a Friday night, you know, we didn't have to work Saturday, so it was kind of like, you know, you kind of, like, enjoyed it more. Have a few drinks. You get to, you know, hang out with, you know, friends. Kind of like treating myself. I was treating myself.

[Patrick Hines]

Charlie, just say you want to get sloshed at the game. Just say it like it's all over now. Just say you wanted to get hammered.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We're going to get to this eventually. But you know how we know it wasn't Charlie who threw the beer? He would never throw out a beer. He's got to drink every fucking ounce.

[Patrick Hines]

Of it till we get to that piece of shit with the beer. Do you hear the low? I'm not even yelling. That's how much I hate this guy.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And Reggie, we find out that Reggie broke his finger. So he's, like, not playing that night. He's in a suit.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And so Stephen is starting, and Steven wasn't on the team the year before when they lost Jackson. Stephen Jackson wasn't on the team the year before when they lost to Detroit. So he doesn't even necessarily really know what he's walking into here.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And so I have Reggie Miller, legend, and the only adult in the room is in a suit on the bench. Right. So just to recap, the Pacers, that's Reggie and friends, they're here to make a statement. The Pistons are there to defend a title, and they hate each other.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And we had 10 minutes.

[Patrick Hines]

What could go wrong?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

What could go wrong? And we had 10 minutes of how, like, charged up the room is. Like, you can feel the electricity when you walked in there. But they introduced this guy, Ben Wallace, and he. He's a player on the Pistons who becomes a major player here. And I guess he's, like a fan favorite. Everyone's getting really hyped. And the one thing they tell us is that the Pacers guys, though, they're, like, friends with Ben Wallace and the other guys in real life, they know that his brother had just died.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And so.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And that's, like, a big thing here.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And he's, like, going through it, and he's super intimidating. He's six. Nine.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Is he. Oh, my God. And he's here with us now. Seems like a nice guy.

[Patrick Hines]

He's the only Piston here.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Interesting.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But I'm glad he's here to tell his side of it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

So. And the point is, like, everyone's bringing all of their personal shit to the game.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

Right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That's the bottom line. That's the thing to know here.

[Patrick Hines]

So it is sometimes it is a little bit about the rivalry. They hate each other. They're there to make a statement, defend it. But there's, like, personal shit that everyone's also bringing to the.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So the game starts and it's just going great for the Pacers. The Pacers are fucking dominating. Listen to me. It's like I'm fucking announcing a game.

[Patrick Hines]

I was like, where I have to ground myself. The Pacers are dominating. Are we gonna end the podcast so we could be announcers for small announcers? We're gonna be like, reggie Miller, looking amazing in those shorts. Scores again. Scoring.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Am I right?

[Patrick Hines]

Scores again. They'll be like, that's football. Doesn't matter. Are you gonna have fun or are you gonna be a big drift? Can't we just have fun?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But they're doing amazing. They're up by double digits. Reggie says, because we were beating them down. The normal ticket holders were gone. They had left.

[Ben Wallace]

So it was the people that were.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Trinkling their way down that were probably already liquored up, coming on down to fill those seats. And all these, like, drunken maniacs have, like, filtered down the season ticket holders.

[Patrick Hines]

The Die Hards.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They've all filtered down, like, into the seats. Right. Right near the stage. What do you call it?

[Patrick Hines]

The court.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The court.

[Patrick Hines]

The court. It's fine. But who stays? Charlie. The, like, problematic Charlie, who's hammered. For whatever reason. He's still there. Hammered.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Let me.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Because the bar's still open. Charlie. I see you, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. Charlie, please. Charlie's hammered in the parking lot before the game. Like, please.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So, like, all the hooligans from the upper level are coming down to the orchestra seats.

[Patrick Hines]

The ne'er do wells.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. They're coming down to the house seats.

[Patrick Hines]

The house seats. Those are really expensive. Too expensive. But I see your point. Travel down the road. Back again, girl.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Pretty litter is back. Give us a macaroni update.

[Patrick Hines]

Macaroni's doing so great.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Macaroni's Jillian's best friend's. Ashley's new cat.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

He's so new anymore. And he's so healthy and he's loving the pretty litter. As is Ashley. You know why? Because she has peace of mind.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes. Because the whole thing about the pretty litter is it's got the health indicator. So if macaroni or any cat uses the box and the box turns a different color, you know you gotta take your kitty to the vet.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. Something you know like a urinary tract infection or a kidney issue. Anything that you know is that would show up in their box.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. And the other thing too. And I remember this from having cats. The worst part about having cats is how bad your apartment stinks and you get nose blindness. So you don't even know.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. You have no idea. And I'm here to tell you your apartment stinks. Unless you have pretty litter.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Because Pretty Litter's non clumping formula traps odor and moving moisturizer. It's ultra absorbent. It's also lightweight, low dust and 16 pound bag works for up to a month.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And they deliver it right to your door. I remember the days of carrying those bags like from the grocery store to my house. Cause I live in a city and even a couple of blocks your hands all red by the time you get home.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So you don't have huge kitty litter bags taking up space. You don't have to go to the store and carry a 20 pound bag home.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yep.

[Patrick Hines]

They just like it just shows up to your door.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And your cat's healthy and your house does the same. And, and, and there's no dust everywhere because it's super absorbent.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Totally. So Van Pretty litter helps keep my house smelling fresh and clean.

[Patrick Hines]

Try and you'll love it. Go to prettylitter.com tco to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The free cat toy kills me. That's PrettyLitter.com TCO to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Patrick Hines]

Pretty Litter.com TCO terms and conditions apply.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

C site for details.

[Patrick Hines]

That was good.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Thanks.

[Patrick Hines]

This one girl.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Shopify is back. Wait for the sound. That's how you know. Here's the thing. At tco, we've been using Shopify for years. I remember how much it completely changed our life when we integrated Shopify for our online store.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. So if you're growing your business, your commerce platform has to be ready to sell wherever your customers are. Scrolling.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

Or strolling.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Exactly.

[Patrick Hines]

So on the web or in your store or on their feed or everywhere in between.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Well. And nobody does it better than Shop Shopify. I'm telling you, Shopify is the number one checkout on the planet.

[Patrick Hines]

And the not so secret secret is that shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. Meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales getting Cha Ching.

[Patrick Hines]

We're all watching only murders in the building, right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Of course. My friend Michael threw Grenton's on it.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. You know Selena Gomez. She has rare beauty.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Guess what? She's using Shopify.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

See, that's what we're talking about.

[Patrick Hines]

Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Selena Gomez uses for rare beauty.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com obsessed, all lowercase. So go to shopify.com obsessed to upgrade your selling today.

[Patrick Hines]

Shopify.com obsessed again. It's very straightforward.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Good enough for Selena Gomez.

[Patrick Hines]

I mean, come on, she could keep.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Her hands to herself, but why would she want to?

[Patrick Hines]

Wow, wow, wow.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Did I nail it?

[Patrick Hines]

Wow. So Charli, the Detroit fan goes on this rant.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, man. Very disrespectful. Like, the way they did it. The game was almost over. They had starters out there that was playing. They're up by 15, 20.

[Patrick Hines]

It was real disrespectful. What he's trying to explain is when you know you're going to win, like, you should kind of pull back and not be so aggressive and not like showboat, right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Is that a thing?

[Patrick Hines]

It's a thing.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Win by a thousand is my. Is my motto.

[Patrick Hines]

Well, here's the thing. Like, Charlie's also full of shit because there's two minutes. I know this because I paused on the screen. Okay? There's 2 minutes and 14 seconds left in the game. The Pacers are only up by 11 points. A lot can happen in almost two and a half minutes. So, like, there's plenty of time for.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Shit to go down that has the three point shots. I mean, they're probably not going to get like four, but look like crazy shit has happened.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, YouTube. It. It's just like, amazing. Like, you can score 11 points in two minutes in basketball, no question. Right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You're really fired up about it because it's just Charlie.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, say you wanted to go and get hammered. I don't. Like this kid has a fucking death wish. We'll get to it in a minute. Right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We see it. It's unbelievable because Charlie's like, they were.

[Patrick Hines]

Up 15, 20 points. Not true, Charlie. I fucking paused it. It was 11 points with two and a half minutes left. Fuck yourself. And also everyone, everyone from the Pacers to the Pistons was saying how important and personal this game is. You fucking play to the end. You think Reggie. You think Reggie's gonna let you pull some shit and pull back? Absolutely fucking not. You play until the end, Charlie. He makes me crazy, you guys.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

She had to turn away and put her head between her hands.

[Patrick Hines]

I'm like, I couldn't even look at my notes anymore because his name is on it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You guys. I want win by a thousand merch. I want it.

[Patrick Hines]

Shut up, Charlie. But now. Now, though. Here's what happens now. It's 57 seconds left, and the Pacers are up by 15 points. So now it's like, the game's over, right? There's no way anyone can get 15 points in 57 seconds. And so Stephen Jackson is guarding Ben Wallace, the 6, 9 guy who just lost his brother, and he's going through it. And Steven Jackson is like, have you seen Ben Wallace? Are you gonna talk to him? He's six, nine. Like, I'm not even gonna do my job on the court. I'm gonna play, but, like, I'm not gonna try to block him. Like, I'm not gonna start any shit.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And like, Steven Jackson had the right idea here. We can play hard. Reggie will be happy. You don't have to pull back, but you also don't have to go out of your way to start some shit. Don't do that.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So Ron fouls this Ben Wallace guy.

[Patrick Hines]

And Ron says he was like, he's known for later.

[Ben Wallace]

And I didn't want to get the layup, so I pushed him.

[Patrick Hines]

He was going to do a layup, and I didn't want him to make it, so I fouled him, Ron.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know. So then, I mean, and this is jarring to watch because Ben Wallace turns around and, like, shoves Ron so hard. These guys are huge, and they're so strong. And I mean. And Ron goes fucking flying like, 10ft. I mean, it's un. I rewound it to watch it again, right?

[Patrick Hines]

And Ben says he was like, look, even today, he's like, it was too hard of a foul at that point. If he's gonna foul me, fine. But it was way too ag for under a minute left in the thing. Exactly. Enough, enough.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And then Reggie is saying to us, like, you know what? A dust up on the court is fine. Nobody cares. Like, all of that shit is fake anyway. But then Ron does this insane thing, and this is a thing. I don't even know what it is. Ron, in response, doesn't go back and like, punch Benoit, he goes and lies down on the scores table. What is that? What's a scores table?

[Patrick Hines]

It's where they keep score of the game.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh. Cause I see that up on that big board with the numbers and the lights.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. But I think they're keeping track of, like, who, where on the court. If it's three point or whatever.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I see, I see, I see. Ron is saying, at that point, I.

[Ben Wallace]

Was ready in therapy. So I was practicing in real time. One thing was take five, right? So if something happens, you're like, 1, 2, 3. Before you do anything, just count. Because then you get more time to think.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I was really upset. And I've learned in therapy, go lie down and count to five. He's full of shit. That's not what he was doing.

[Patrick Hines]

And he looks like he's showboating. He looks like he has his hands behind his head and he's like.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

He is.

[Patrick Hines]

Because while Ron Artest is laying down on this table, Ben Wallace is like throwing people. Like, he's trying to get to Ron Artest and his team is protecting him and the refs are trying to do whatever. And so when you see Ron Artest just like kind of kick back on the scorers table, even Ben Wallace is like, that was worse than the foul. Like, that behavior like that made me incensed.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The other point that Jermaine makes here that's so important is that the fans.

[Ron Artest]

Don'T know the majority of us are actually friends. So they think that this is a real street brawl scenario somehow. However you react, they're gonna react. If you do this, what do you think they gonna do?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The fans are looking to their players. And whatever the players do, the fans are gonna do.

[Patrick Hines]

He explains it perfectly.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's perfectly explained.

[Patrick Hines]

They're gonna follow the lead of their team. And remember, they're in Detroit. The Pacers are outnumbered by thousands.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Exactly, exactly. And then. And then it happens.

[Patrick Hines]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why Reggie is such an amazing storyteller. And Stephen Jackson. So here's. I even took screenshots that I really. Yeah. Because I love this moment so much. Because then it's like fucking chaos down here. Tom, right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And Reggie, like 10 times, like a.

[Patrick Hines]

Thousand times, Reggie goes.

[Ben Wallace]

And out of the corner of my.

[Ron Artest]

Eye, I see it coming.

[Patrick Hines]

Then Steven Jackson goes.

[Ron Artest]

Super slow mo.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Like, it just like, it just.

[Ron Artest]

Everybody was supposed to see it. That's how slow it went.

[Patrick Hines]

Everyone was meant to see it. Like, the universe was like, this is going to be a moment. Like, that's how slow it Went. It's a beer being thrown from the stands. And it's like, perfectly choreographed. Hits Ron Artest in the center of his chest while he's laying down, trying to, quote, ground himself, right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And Ron doesn't even hesitate.

[Patrick Hines]

Therapy goes out the window. He's like a fucking freight train. He, like, levitates. He jumps over five people. He's got the longest legs.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Unbelievable.

[Patrick Hines]

He's now in the stands fighting with the fans.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And, I mean, he's, like, trying to find the guy that threw the beer. Steven Jackson's like, I went where he went.

[Patrick Hines]

The most loyal guy you'd ever meet. Again, just leaping over.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And then there's another beer thrown in Ron Artest's face.

[Patrick Hines]

It looks like a bucket. Like, how much liquid came out of that thing? My God. I was like, what? Where? How much was that beer? It was like, 40 bucks.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I would take a bucket of beer right now. And Steven says, that's the guy I punched. And we see him punch this guy. And every time a person gets punched that we see, it looks like they die. It looks like a fucking video game, and they're killing zombies.

[Patrick Hines]

And now, like, fans and players and everyone's just beating the hell out of each other. And I'm like, no one thought to just leave.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, not a single person was like, you know what? Yeah, we can call it a night.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Charlie would have left, but he got more beer. He had more beer to drink.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, you know what?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

But also, this is happening live. Like, Matt, our editor, was watching this live. And we hear the announcers being saying, oh, boy, what a sad scene here at the Palace. Excuse me.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know. This is a disgrace. Oh, what a sad scene here at the Palace. And now another fight's breaking out in.

[Patrick Hines]

Front of the Pistons bench.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It is utter chaos down here, Tom.

[Patrick Hines]

And Jermaine O'Neal realizes it dawns on him.

[Ron Artest]

I just stopped and paused, and I just started. Started looking. Where is the security at?

[Patrick Hines]

There's no security anywhere.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. Can you imagine?

[Patrick Hines]

Anywhere?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And he's like, these are 20,000 of their fans and their players, and there's 15 of us.

[Patrick Hines]

And the fans are drunk, angry, and entitled.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay. And so now.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, that's the name of my memoir. My forthcoming memoir.

[Patrick Hines]

Introduction by Julian Bentzion. As always, maybe more than ever. Oh, my God.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Drunk, angry, and.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, that's a good one. That might be the best one we've ever come up with. That is excellent.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That's also gotta be merch. Why are we keeping notes? We gotta Keep notes of the merch.

[Patrick Hines]

God, we're good at this. This is fun. Let's do this forever. So back with Charlie the fan who just. I can't even get the words out. Yeah, he's here with us today. Yes. The man has a death wish. He has a death wish. He goes.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Everybody was, like, everywhere. I mean, it was just like a melee. And then they were pushing us towards the exit. Somehow I got in the court.

[Patrick Hines]

I don't know. Like, somehow I just ended up on the court. Like, it just happened to him. No, Charlie forgets that this is all recorded, because I think he expects to see what the public has seen for all these years. He must not realize that there's raw footage of him, because we see Ron Artest has walked away from the fight. Yeah, he really is.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

He's trying to go backstage.

[Patrick Hines]

He's, like, pacing, trying to go backstage to his dressing room.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Right.

[Patrick Hines]

He looks lost. Truly. Like, it's a mess. Charlie, this fan walks right up to Ron Artest with a. Remember in the Bigfoot where we learned about bluff charging.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And run our test today.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Bluff charging. The Patrick Hines story.

[Patrick Hines]

There you go.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's the sequel.

[Patrick Hines]

I was gonna say the sequel. The companion piece. So Ron Artest today is like, I remember being shot.

[Ben Wallace]

Like, I seen an alien, like, this guy coming to the court to fight. Because at that point, I'm like, I'm fed up.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I mean, ron Artest is 6, 10, and this pipsqueak is like, 5, 5.

[Patrick Hines]

And before we see it, we get Ron Artest saying, like, is this kid fucking serious? And an announcer saying, like, no one in their right mind would think it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Would be a good idea to seek.

[Patrick Hines]

Out Ron Artest in this moment and try to fight him. But Charlie, who just found himself, like, he didn't stumble down there.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Clenched fist, by the way, when you see it, the fucking guys. He's about to pop. Ron Artes, he, like, does this bluff.

[Patrick Hines]

Charge with the clenched fist, and then gets, like, startled and Ron fucking punches him in the face. And now there's another fight on the court. Ron Artest is not even in this fight.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

No, no.

[Patrick Hines]

Ron's pulled away. Jermaine O'Neal is seeing this all happen from the other side of the court. He runs. Runs to try to punch this guy in the face. He slides because there's beer all over the court. Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And Reggie says he slipped. Thank God it was the best miss of Jermaine's career, because if Jermaine would.

[Ben Wallace]

Have connected on that punch, that fan would have been Dead.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

If he had connected, he would have killed.

[Patrick Hines]

He would have killed that guy.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And Charlie, who has a death wish, calls Jermaine. He goes, that was a bitch move, to tell you the truth. Charlie, keep your mouth shut. What is wrong with you?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You.

[Patrick Hines]

We have footage of you bluff charging Ron Arts. What were you thinking? Shut your mouth.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

My. My only thing about Jermaine, who I love. I love him so much, he's going to go on to say that everything he did was, like, defensive. That was. Wasn't defensive. He, like, ran at that guy and tried to punch him.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. He also says, like, there was never one second where I thought, I shouldn't be punished for this.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, Agree, right. He's very, very accountable.

[Patrick Hines]

And so, like, Ron Artest is in the middle of the court. He's not even fighting.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

But then. Everyone shut up and pull over. I can't even believe you're behind the wheel right now. We hear what I'm going to call. Hands down, the best 911 call we have heard to date by a long shot.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Wait, describe it, because I don't remember it.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So we get here again, screenshot, so I can. They pick up Hel. The caller says, somebody needs to come down to the palace, and hurry up. And the dispatcher goes, okay. And the caller goes, they're fighting, ma'am. And 911 goes. The fight between the players. And the caller just goes, hurry up. And 911 is like, all right, we have people on the way. And the caller once again goes, please hurry up. Hello, 911. Okay, we do have that out there.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Hurry up.

[Patrick Hines]

Okay, when she goes, hurry up. Like, I'm gonna say. It's slow and loud so you can understand me. I. I made Mike Watch that 15 times. Hurry up.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Girl. Helix is back. I gotta just say it. It's the best mattress I've ever had. We've had ours for years. I'm obsessed. It's so easy. You take the sleep quiz, you answer a few questions, bada bing, bada boom, they send you the mattress of your dreams.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, I've had the midnight luxe. That's what I got picked. Paired with Mike and I took the sleep quiz. I used to toss and turn. Not so much anymore. I also was a very hot sleeper, so they have Helix mattresses for that. Again, the midnight luxe, We've had it for, like, five years.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I gotta tell you, it is the first mattress on which I feel like I most consistently sleep through the night. Like, I would always Wake up uncomfortable or hot or just, like, out of position or whatever. I used to have mattresses that would sag after six months. We've had our Helix mattress for, like, five or six years now. It is still, like, the day it came to us.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. I used to be one of those people who, like, would wake up every hour, and I'd look at my phone and be like, oh, my God, it's only this time. But now up, it's like, oh, I had a full night's sleep.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. And nothing beats a full night's sleep. Truly.

[Patrick Hines]

It's the best. It's the best. And you feel like, I can't wait to go to sleep, but not because I'm exhausted, but because I know I'm gonna wake up rested tomorrow.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I actually really. And I now become a person who likes that. Like, 20 minutes of just, like, hanging out in bed before I fall asleep. It really is, like, the most comfortable place in the house.

[Patrick Hines]

It's amazing. Thank you, Helix.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So fam. Go to helixsleep.com tco for 20% off site wide from March 3rd to March 27th. Can you believe I know when that is?

[Patrick Hines]

No, I certainly cannot.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That's a basketball one, right?

[Patrick Hines]

Yes, it is. Good job.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Thank you.

[Patrick Hines]

So that's helixleaf.com TCO for 20% off.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Site wide on March 3rd to March 27th.

[Patrick Hines]

Which is.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Which is the basketball March Madness.

[Patrick Hines]

There you go. Perfect. Helixsleep.com TCO so this is where we.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

See them again, going through that gauntlet, trying to get backstage, where everyone lines up with their water, their Gatorade, their beer, their popcorn to dump it on these people.

[Patrick Hines]

This is disgusting. First of all, like, who the fuck are you? Who acts like this? The entitlement of it all. It's a fucking basketball game. But also, like, the anger. If you really look at the people, the anger and the rage they have. Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And they're all hammered, too. You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

And it's like, someone could have been killed.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yes.

[Patrick Hines]

And it is.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

They're covering. One of the guys getting Ron out of there is covering his head with his hand. Cause he's afraid someone's gonna throw a fucking rock or something at him.

[Patrick Hines]

He's trying to get the chairs loose.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, I was gasping. Steve was like, what is going on over there? I'm like, you just have to walk. This is insane.

[Patrick Hines]

And it is also, like, incredibly upsetting to see all of these black men get drinks poured on them. It was a mob, and it was very upsetting to see this Happening to all of these black men who are literally, like. So it's just a team versus, like, all of the Indiana.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

All of the Indians. You know what? They held them off.

[Patrick Hines]

They did.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

So we're in the locker room, and Ron is now, like, scared of seeing Jermaine because even though Jermaine came to Ron's defense, Ron is like.

[Ben Wallace]

And the whole time, like, oh, Jermaine's gonna kick my butt right now. Like, the whole time I'm like, I didn't want to see him. I knew he was going to be pissed. Because it's all about winning for Jermaine.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And they get in there, like, they, like, charge at each other.

[Patrick Hines]

I can't even imagine what it must do to, like, your level of energy and your psyche and Jermaine.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Like, I legitimately live in fear of getting yelled at, getting in trouble. Like, I really feel that, like, stress when. When I'm in a situation like that. I feel like Jermaine is kind of like that, too, because he's like, Then.

[Ron Artest]

The police comes in and trying to grab me to take me to jail, and I'm still. Again, I'm on survival mode. I'm like, look, I'm not going with you. I am getting on this bus and getting on that plane. I'm going home. Reach out to my lawyers, girl.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I am not coming with you. I am getting on that bus and getting on that plane, and you can reach out to my attorneys.

[Patrick Hines]

Good day.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Good day. I said good day.

[Patrick Hines]

And good for Jermaine for being like, I'm not fucking coming with you. Are you serious?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Jermaine would have been killed if he had gone.

[Patrick Hines]

Are you kidding me? So now it's all over the news. It's disgraceful. It's.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And the thing is, are you not going to say the best word I've ever heard in a documentary?

[Patrick Hines]

Hooliganism.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, come on, Podcast soulmate.

[Patrick Hines]

Hooliganism.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Disgraceful brawl at the Pacers Pistons game in Detroit may be the ugliest act of pure hooliganism in US Sports history. The racism of it all. And I mean, like, the racism, like, pervades all of this news coverage. It's so fucking awful. Everyone is saying, like, the players paid.

[Patrick Hines]

Gazillions of dollars here. These are guys who have never had to follow the rules. If she's trying to, like, celebrities live by a different standard, whatever. But, like, to say that professional athletes don't follow the rules. Sports is all about rules. Like, she just sounds like an idiot, and she's being Racist. Also, I have a quote from Howard Kurtz from cnn, who's also on Fox News, of course, because listen to this.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I bet Charlie's your number one fan.

[Patrick Hines]

Seriously, he goes, the tattoos, the fights, the drug busts.

[Ron Artest]

Are the media helping the NBA market.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

This as a kind of an in your face hip hop sport?

[Patrick Hines]

Are the media helping the NBA market this as some kind of an in your face hip hop sport?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Fuck off. Howard Curtis.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Hey, the T word 800 times during all of this.

[Patrick Hines]

And like a hip hop sport.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, I know.

[Patrick Hines]

Keith Olbermann calling them gangsta wannabes is so cringe, I can't even handle it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

No. And then Jermaine says, these are thugs.

[Ron Artest]

Literally, that's the word that he used. And everybody else signing off. Yeah. You know, rap music and this. Well, they're not saying that. When high hockey is beating the hell out of each other for decades, like.

[Patrick Hines]

Fights in hockey is part of the game, right?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And there's just something about white men beating up each other is just kind of civilized, you know, Whereas, like, these black men beating up each other, they're barbarians and, like, just so wild, you.

[Patrick Hines]

Know, it's like, all right, like on the ice, it's like, okay, fellas, that was good, you know, get the gloves back on. But here, they just let them happen. Like, they just let it happen.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I mean, I don't know how I know this from hockey, but I do know this, that like, in hockey, they live for the fighting. All they want to do is get back out there and beat the living shit out of each players that they.

[Patrick Hines]

Call, like, enforcers, where, like, part of the thing, like, they're good players, but also, like, you don't want to mess with them because they're the fighters.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

They'll hold grudges for seasons at a time. These basketball players are like, we don't actually want to fight. Like, it's just a show. None of us actually want to fudgeing do that.

[Patrick Hines]

Right.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's just not like that. Here's the whole thing. The NBA is very concerned about how this is going to affect business. So what they want to do is put all of it on the players, hold all the players accountable and not hold any of the fans accountable. Like, they want to say, this was all started by the Pacers. All these three players are the ones that are responsible for this.

[Patrick Hines]

And it's mostly the Indiana players like Ben Wallace and a couple of the Pistons also get suspensions. But, like, Ron Artest is suspended for the rest of the season. This Happened in November. Basketball is from October to April, so, like, the whole rest of the season. Steven Jackson, 30 games. Jermaine O'Neal, 25 games. And the punishments are unprecedented. And that's the point. They want to make an example out of these guys.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

This is where they tell us the basketball commissioner guy never saw the unedited footage.

[Ron Artest]

I never had a conversation with David. The narrative was based on a edited conclusion on espn.

[Patrick Hines]

Wouldn't you want as, like, the president of the thing? Let me see it all.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Of course.

[Patrick Hines]

Ask a question.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

All they care about is protecting the organization. And this is where we meet the DA because the DA Is like, fuck this. I'm holding everybody accountable.

[Patrick Hines]

Dave.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, come on.

[Patrick Hines]

Come on down, DA Dave. Join the party.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

He is kind of awesome because he's like, I want to watch. Watch every fucking minute of the video. He's like, there's a lot of work.

[Patrick Hines]

That went into this. It's gonna be a very long investigation.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Probably more complicated than even a murder because you have so many witnesses. There's over a thousand pages of police reports. Unlike most crimes, we had so much footage from different angles.

[Patrick Hines]

It's a lot of work, you guys. This might be more complicated than a murder. Okay, please back off. I have a lot of footage to go through.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But eventually, they're able to isolate images of the people that they're looking for from the stands.

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah. And Dave's like, there were some fans who just loved it. And I'm like, you could say his name. His name's Charlie, and he loves it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But the big thing is, they're looking for the guy that threw the beer. Oh, God. And they. The thing is, D.A. davis. Like, we got images of him. We couldn't, like, get a good shot of him. We couldn't figure out who it was. But the more I watched it, the more I thought maybe I knew that guy.

[Patrick Hines]

This guy's name is John Green. Used to date DA Dave's neighbor. Used to. Because I can't imagine anyone spending five minutes with this guy. So John Green threw the cup that hit Ron Artest that, like, started this whole melee, right? As much as John Green loves this, that's how much I hate John Green. Does that make any sense? Because there's audio of John being questioned, and he's like, am I in trouble here? Like, what's going on? The cops are like, no way, bro. No charges at all.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

No charges, girl. But then he goes on and does, like, a local news.

[Patrick Hines]

Take your hat off, John. He's wearing a baseball cap. Take Your hat off.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

He does a fucking local news interview. We see the video of him throwing the beer. We see him throwing the beer.

[Patrick Hines]

He is so smug.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know. And the fucking interviewer is like, what would your answer to the question, did you throw the beer be? And he's like, at this point, you know, no able. You know, I'd have to say, no able.

[Patrick Hines]

Which just means, don't talk, you idiot.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Where's John Green today? What's the John Green update?

[Patrick Hines]

Well, he had a criminal record before this. Shocking.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, and when we. They actually take this guy to court, he gets charged with two, like, felony assault charges. He's crying. Did you see him crying in court?

[Patrick Hines]

Good.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Fuck you, John Green.

[Patrick Hines]

Good. So, like, every other fan got, like, fines, costs, probation, but John Green actually got charged with assault and battery.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah. And, like, you know, Jermaine is telling us. I mean, the basketball player is just saying, like, after the criminal part of this whole thing, I went through the process of appealing my suspension.

[Ron Artest]

A federal judge who then saw every camera angle, said I had the right to do what I did.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

If the basketball commissioner had taken the time to see what actually happened, these guys wouldn't have gotten in trouble.

[Patrick Hines]

Right. And the legal battles were nothing compared to what the NBA did to them.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Right, exactly. And Reg is just saying, like, that one beer changed everything. It cost all of them a lot of money and a lot of time.

[Patrick Hines]

And it cost Reggie the championship.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

He doesn't get his championship, and he retires at the end of that season. But then Ron Artest asked to be traded. He was so ashamed. He, like, couldn't face Jermaine anymore.

[Patrick Hines]

He was like, I can't wear that Indiana jersey because that. I was wearing that Indiana jersey during the. The worst moment of my life. So Ron thinks it's, like, better for everybody to be traded. But Steven and Jermaine are like, are you kidding me?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You started this. You fudgeing started this and now you're abandoning us.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, we're still here. Like, let's go through this together.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hines]

And so then Ron Artest changes his name to Mettle World Peace, and everyone's making fun of him. And it's really. I think it's super rude.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's so rude. But the. Even rud Ron goes on to be on the Lakers and win a fucking championship. No, I mean, this is the thing. Like, Ron started this fight. He abandoned his teammates. And, you know, when he wins the championship with the Lakers and he sits down for that interview, he says as much.

[Patrick Hines]

And the thing is, like, all he wants to do is talk about Jermaine. And see, it's exactly what you were saying. Just, like, talking about giving everyone else the credit.

[Ron Artest]

You, my friend, are a champion.

[Patrick Hines]

How does it feel?

[Ben Wallace]

I was supposed to get one with Jermaine and Donnie and Larry and Jamal Tinsley and Jeff Foster over there in Indiana, and I bailed out on them. I felt like a coward. You know, sometimes I don't even like, you know, being in their presence. I feel like a coward in their presence, you know? Cause I bailed out on them as a teammate, and then I get to get a championship.

[Patrick Hines]

Like, Confetti's on the ground. He's on the court. He's still out of breath. Right. I think this is amazing. And the guys are, like, cool. Meta. Can we talk about this game you just won? Like, why do you want to talk about Jermaine? But it meant a lot to him to do that.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Seems to me like Ron Artest, Metta World Peace, whatever his name is, he's just a guy who can't get out of his own way.

[Patrick Hines]

Yes.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You know, and I mean, like, Metta.

[Patrick Hines]

World Peace, it's a Buddhist name. And he's like. He's like, I just want to have balance. I don't want to be so emotionally attached to the game. And he, like, spoke to his therapist about it, and so he's like, I want to communicate. I want to be a better person. So the name isn't, like, a publicity style. Yeah.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

And then, like, you know, they tell us that Jermaine was the one that really suffered. Like, he was the one that was on the verge of being one of the greatest players of all time. And that just doesn't materialize what happened to him after that.

[Patrick Hines]

They're all fine. Like, they all still have. Yes, they lost millions by the suspension. But, like, Jermaine's earrings are amazing. He has gigantic diamond earrings. He lives in a beautiful house. Like, yes, he could have been the Reggie Miller killer and that. Like, I'm not gonna take that away from him. Like, what? That must be like.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Like, did he stop playing, or was it his reputation just was damaged?

[Patrick Hines]

Yeah, it was just a stain on. On all of this. But they all, like, they played and they made millions of dollars. Could they have made more? Yeah. Should they have made more millions of dollars?

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Like, you know, and, you know, and then it cuts to Steven, and this is, like, the moment from the beginning. I don't know what the interviewer asked him, because, like, he clearly agreed to do this interview, and he Was cool.

[Patrick Hines]

He's gonna defend the guys if someone tries to start shit at the bar.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

But then all of a sudden, Steven is losing his shit and he's looking.

[Patrick Hines]

At a camera, like, behind him, over his shoulder, and he's like, it's the.

[Ron Artest]

Last fucking time you can ask me about this shit. I don't want to talk about that piece of shit motherfucker who threw that beer, okay? I don't want to talk about losing all that money no more.

[Patrick Hines]

This is the last time I'm doing this. You have that. You hear that? I'm not doing this again.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I'm not talking about the motherfucker who threw the beer or losing all that money.

[Patrick Hines]

He's like, I'm done.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

I know.

[Patrick Hines]

But then also, as one little piece of some cathartic moment, the palace gets.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Demolished because Jermaine is like, as long as the palace stands, part of me will always be trapped there. And then we see them literally demolishing the palace in, I think, 2017.

[Patrick Hines]

To which I say bye byee.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, my goodness, fam. Thank you for listening to our Repeat episode.

[Patrick Hines]

Our 2021 selves. God knows. So the part I was talking about is when that woman is calling 911, like, as the man melee is happening, and she's like, hurry up. Because they keep asking her questions and she's like, you don't. You don't see what I'm seeing. I need you here, like, yesterday.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Hurry, hurry up.

[Patrick Hines]

She's in my. I love her so much. I think of her all the time. I hope she's doing well.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

We love you, fam. Thanks for. Thanks for checking this out. You know. That's it.

[Patrick Hines]

That's it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Get out of here.

[Patrick Hines]

I hope you enjoyed it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, me too. Maybe we'll go watch it again.

[Patrick Hines]

Oh, it's. It's very, very good.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

The 30 for 30s, the sports ones are always really good. I don't know was it if it's.

[Patrick Hines]

30 for 30 or untold, but either one.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Oh, it's untold, it's untold.

[Patrick Hines]

Both of those series are very well done.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Yeah, very good. All right, we'll see you later, fam.

[Patrick Hines]

All right, we love you.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Bye Bye. I realized today at the gym, people say, don't work harder, work smarter. That's not an option for me.

[Patrick Hines]

I disagree.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

That option is not available to me, so I just have to work harder.

[Patrick Hines]

I just hear that song, like, all I do is win, win, win, no matter what. I was like that. That's the vibe of them just killing it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

It's not a conference.

[Patrick Hines]

It's not a conference.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Not a keynote speaker in sight. No, not a badge.

[Patrick Hines]

Reggie could do it. I knew Reggie give a speech, but he's like, no, no, no. They're only winning games because I'm there screaming at the top of my lungs for three hours. And if I wasn't there, they'd have nothing to show for it. And I'm like, buddy, get a life.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Get a fucking life, buddy.

[Patrick Hines]

They're playing this song, the Final Countdown, and that song just irks me. I can't explain it.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

No, I. Makes sense. You don't have to. We speak the same language on that.

[Patrick Hines]

It just. It gets right under my skin and I hate it. And I know I can't. I don't know why.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Can't it be We Will Rock youk?

[Patrick Hines]

And it's also like, yes.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You know what I mean?

[Patrick Hines]

There's a queen in there.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Totally.

[Patrick Hines]

For God's sake. The Final Countdown. It's just. It doesn't do what anyone thinks it should. And I feel like liking it is like, I like the final. Like, what a look at my personality.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Boston, where we have to do a swimming. Sweet Caroline. Every fucking season.

[Patrick Hines]

I fear that. That sounded like I was doing like a voice. Like a derpy voice from Reggie. I was not. That was tears. It was a bad impression. Reggie, I love you. Please come into my DMs.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

You know what I'm waiting for? The DMs with the tweets from Charli. Hi, girl.

[Patrick Hines]

Hi.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Hi.

[Patrick Hines]

Fuck it. Shut up.

[Julian Buzzavalli]

Blocked.

[Patrick Hines]

Blocked.