C (2:45)

Was like, oh, my God, I married a Taurus.

A (2:47)

So. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, everything's coming up Taurus.

B (2:51)

As far as I'm Concerned.

A (2:53)

I mean, they're great. They're wonder. Obviously I love them. They're amazing. But. Yes. And I don't drink Cokes, so my favorite drink of choice is usually water and. Or coffee.

B (3:05)

Fair.

A (3:05)

Yes. So that's how I do it. All right, so we all have been in True Crime kind of, I would say, right? Like at least over two years, generally speaking. Right. Some of us a decade, some of us a little bit longer. I started back in 2016. But, Jillian, how did you enter this space? Because it feels like this was a little bit of a happenstance for you.

C (3:25)

Well, so I did in 2016, I started the Hamilcast, which was about the musical Hamilton. So I'm gonna be wrapping that up actually in January of next year in like a couple weeks. 500 episodes, 10 years.

A (3:38)

Wow.

B (3:39)

Amazing.

C (3:40)

It's been amazing. But it sounds perfect, right? Cause I keep saying if I don't end it 500 episodes, 10 years, it's gonna be 20 years and a thousand episodes, which I'm only like half joking about. It just feels good. And Hamilton just celebrated their 10 year anniversary. But I didn't know anything about podcasting. I hadn't seen Hamilton. I had an old camcorder that my husband and I made a web series on. And like, just. I just felt really. I haven't before or since felt a drive like that to just be like, I think that this is a podcast. Like, I don't. You know, my ADHD makes it super hard to listen to podcasts. Cause it's not like, you know, it's not a visual thing.

A (4:10)

Yeah.

C (4:11)

So I started that. And then Patrick Hines was doing a podcast called Theater People, which was basically like the same thing with the Hamilcast, only like all of theater and Broadway. And so he just reached out and was like, hey, welcome to the scene. If you ever want to, like, hang out and be friends. And I don't know, just if you want an ally of some kind, like, hi, welcome. And no one else did that. So I said hi back. And then we started hanging out and going to happy hour and stuff. And that sort of turned into the documentaries that we were watching, the true crime stuff and the books we were reading. And then it sort of came to be like, I was like, let's do a true crime show. I don't know what it is. And I guess we'll figure it out, but it sounds like something we should do. I'm into this whole podcasting thing now. So that happened. I think we launched in like 2017, 2018. So, yeah, we've all been doing this.

A (5:02)

Yeah. Over a decade almost.

C (5:04)

Yeah.

A (5:04)

Isn't that crazy?

B (5:05)

Podcasting tends to hook people like an mlm.

A (5:08)

Like, this is true.

B (5:09)

You trickle in a little bit. And I have 12 podcasts now.

A (5:12)

Yeah, that's like, most people's story. I was like, well, yeah, lots of concepts running out there under Lainey Hobbs, but yeah, I've only kept two of them going for that long period of time, thankfully.

C (5:25)

I want to hear your origin stories, Alvin.

A (5:28)

Go for it.

B (5:28)

Oh, me? Okay. I like. I like where Jillian went as far as, like. I'm also interested in, like, where'd you get the audacity to, like, create, like, that part?

C (5:38)

Like, learn by doing person.

B (5:39)

Yeah. You know what I mean?

C (5:40)

Like, YouTube tutorials. Like, I'll just figure it out.

B (5:42)

That's the part I love. Cause it's like, we all. It will be like, you know, law and order or something. We can all say the thing that got us into true crime. But I'm like, what made you go get a microphone from the store and talk into the microphone? So I love that part about it because, like, I had a background in standup. I started in stand up, and, like, I had all these things I wanted to say and, you know, whatever. And I got into true crime just listening to podcasts. I was like, I don't really hear my perspective in podcasts. I could get my perspective in the space maybe. And my friend who's a mailman, he had a lot of free time at night, and I was like, do you want to do a podcast with me? And he was like, what's a podcast? I was like, you know, like, you just talk. Like, just come over my house and we'll just talk and eat snacks. And he was like, cool. And so we did that. And that was like, almost eight years ago now.

A (6:29)

Yeah.

B (6:29)

Yeah. Like 300 episodes plus and all that stuff. And yeah. You know, like, it just hooks you. And also when you do it with somebody that is a friend, it's like, we were going to do this anyway. Like, we were going to talk anyway. So, like, why not? So, Right.

A (6:41)

Yeah, I love that. So I love that. What gave me the audacity, it was because I didn't have a hobby and all I focused on was my career. So I was, and still am a corporate girly at heart. Like, there's nothing I love more than a 9 to 5. It's just so much stability and fun. But that's also because of how I grew up. So I found a lot of like, purpose. A thought at the time, a lot of purpose in my career and, like, the trajectory of that. And I realized that, like, my happiness level was not, like, matching where I was going in my career. So I was like, wait a minute, I got this. I got this new role, and I'm making this much money. Where's all that happiness I was promised? Where is it coming from, this fulfillment? And I didn't get it. And so one day, I had a really tough conversation with my boss where I was just like, I don't know what I want to do. Like, nothing is working for me. And she was like, baby, you need a hobby. Like, you are never going to find happiness, like, in corporate America, which is so true. You need to find something that's going to actually, like, make you happy. And so I had just started listening to Snap Judgment on NPR at the time, and I had really, like, enjoyed it and still do. And he had said something on there about going to the Whatever, itunes or whatever it was before Apple podcasts, going to check on itunes. And I was like, what's a podcast? And so I get on itunes and I see Snap Judgment on there. And I was like, oh, wait, I can get this, like, whenever I want to. I can listen to as many episodes of this show. And then I was like, whoa, are there any true crime podcasts out there? And so at the time when I started listening to podcasts, it was Gen Y and Marissa from the Vanished that were out there. There's another one who's a troll, so we don't talk about him. Those three podcasts were out and everything. And so I started listening to this, and I was like, you know what? I could really recommend these cases to them. And I kept sending in suggestions and stuff like that, but they were all very different. Like, I could never imagine Aaron and Justin from Gen Y covering a case the way I wanted to hear the case covered and including the details that thought were important and relevant to, you know, the story or the case or anything like that. And so I was just like, I think I'm just gonna start a podcast. And so I'm very spoiled. My older brother is like, I'm the younger baby sister. So he sent me all of this, like, equipment I had no idea how to use, and it was way over my head. So I was like, I need you to send this back. Like, I don't know what this is. And I ended up buying, like, a $21 microphone from Amazon. It just needed to be at my level.

B (9:06)

You needed to simplify It.

A (9:08)

Yeah, I was like, I just want an atr. Like, that's what I got. I got an atr and then I have a Scarlett, and that was it. And I was like, I get it. I got it. Audacity.

B (9:16)

Here's Terry Gross's entire setup.

A (9:18)

Yeah, he sent me a condenser microphone, which, if you don't know, for those listening, condenser microphones require a lot of soundproofing and require you to really be in a very sound controlled space. And dynamic microphones don't require that. Like, you can have stuff going around and as long as the audio is going directly into the mic, you're all good. So he sent me very expensive equipment that was not equipped for my space. I was literally in my open living room trying to record a podcast and stuff. So that's how I got into it, and it was very, very exciting. I love the idea that, you know, just finding a hobby led to this incredible experience. Like, I get to talk to people like you guys and, you know, we wouldn't have crossed paths any other way outside of podcasting, which I think is just so phenomenal.

C (10:02)

I also love the journey of it, too, and sort of the rejection of the super, super fancy equipment right away, because there is something to, you know, like, the journey of figuring out what not only your show was meant to be, but your show, how you want it to sound and how you actually want to make it. So a lot of people ask, I'm sure you hear this all the time as well. Like, what do I need to start? And it's like, nothing. Just do it. Just start it, figure it out. It'll grow, it'll evolve. Don't be scared of that. Like, have I listened to the first episode of the Hamilcast in 10 years? 100% no. But do I love that it started in one place and ended up in another? Of course.

B (10:40)

All good podcasts, you got to have braces and acne. You got to have those, like, first awkward, like, 20 episodes. Yes, they are cringy and embarrassing, but that's where you find your footing and that's where you find, like, what your podcast is. Because you could start a podcast with the idea of, like, we're going to do this, then we're going to go to this segment and all these things, and then you're 20 episodes in and you're like, we don't even do that thing we did on the first episode anymore. I was stupid when, in my mind, it was, like, a really cool thing to do. We're Gonna give, like, shout out birthdays and all these things. None of those things make any sense once you put them into practice. And so, yeah, that part is necessary. So, like, when you start out of the gate of, like, we're gonna get the $10,000 equipment, we're gonna have all these, like, crazy laid out scripts and all this, you gotta go in and you gotta mess up. It's part of the journey. Have bad, bad recordings.

C (11:28)

You both said something that stuck out to me that you both felt that your perspective wasn't being projected, it wasn't being heard. Can you both speak to what you meant by that and how you set out to fix that?

B (11:42)

Lainey?

A (11:43)

Yeah. So I'm a deep diver. I'm like a historian. That's what I got my degree in, right? Like in history. So I'm nosy as hell. I love hearing. I work in employee relations and hr. Cause I love people telling me their business. There's nothing more I love than you being like, I need to say something. And I'm like, tell me everything and I'll deep dive into what it is. You know, I kind of am like, you know, a pseudo therapist in that way, where I'm like, tell me more about this. How does this work? How does this make you feel? And so I approached that in true crime and in research, right? And so it was like, I want to find out, like, the minutiae of this. And some people don't want to be bothered by those details, but there are people like me who do, who want to know, like, well, you know, what were they doing 15 years before this happened? Even though if it's mundane or whatever, like, I want to know what their life was like, like, what was happening. And not just within the perpetrator of this crime, but within the victims. Because they also, as we know, get lost in the cases that we share and all of this stuff. And so I just, like, I like knowing the details. And all of the shows that I was listening to at the time weren't providing kind of the deep down details that I was looking for. So I was like, well, if I want to do a podcast on Albert Fish, there's certain things in his history that you can gloss over because it's not as salacious as him stuffing needles into his urethra. Like, you know, that is interesting.

B (13:06)

Didn't know that one.

A (13:07)

But there's other things too, that are really interesting about his psychology and all of this stuff. He was my first episode. So that's what I mean. Like, that's What I was trying to get from it.

B (13:19)

Wow. Just I'm recovering from the.

A (13:21)

See? Do you see now?

C (13:23)

You know, I'm not expecting to know their urethra today. Urethra.

B (13:27)

Urethra.

C (13:28)

Need.

A (13:28)

I like to surprise people.

B (13:31)

For me, I would say one, when I first started listening to the podcast, it was 2016 guys like Justin and Aaron, which is really cool to know them now. But outside of that, there weren't a ton of men in the space, and definitely there were no black men in the space. And so there would be podcasts that I would listen to that I was big fans of, but they would talk about case about a black woman or an inner city case. I like conversational true crime podcasts. So it was like, I wonder why they did that thing. Like, and then as for me being somebody who lives in a city and might have an aunt who has a similar description of what they're talking about in this story of this woman that was, you know, killed or something like that, I would go, well, I know why that is. Like, I, you know, and it's like an itch when you. When you feel like you know the answer. But that's. That's like the parasocial part of podcast where you're like, I could tell. Just let me just tag me in and I'll tell you the. My perspective. And, yeah, so that kind of drove it. I would just, like, that happened more than once where I was like, oh, it just feels like they're just. They can't. They don't have this puzzle piece for this, you know, to broaden the conversation. And so, yeah, so I was like, I can do that. And then at the timing, the way it lined up of starting podcasting, it was like 2017. Like, Trump just came into the zeitgeist and everything. And so when we talk about finding your footing and all these things, I don't feel like I found my footing probably until, like, two years ago, because I used to be so caught up in, like, you know, just doing the, like, people are here for true crime, man. Like, they're not here to hear about your things, thoughts about the world, man. Like, and I had to let that go because, like, when you get over, like, the salaciousness of true crime, like the headline, everything's politics, everything's political. Every, you know, it's inner city geopolitics. Everything is political. So when you go, I don't really want to tap into that. I'm just here to tell the story. It's like, once I let that Go. I feel like we went into, like, where we should be, you know, but for the first few years, I was like, nah, man, let me stop myself. Or let's edit that out. Cause, like, that's not what we're here to do. We're just here to tell this, like, horrible story with all these terrible details, but nobody wants to hear about that. And it's like, you know, you can respect audience feedback, but I bought this shit from the Guitar center for a reason. I didn't buy this to, like, capitulate to who I think might be listening. Like, I tell my perspective, so why am I biting my tongue and, you know, and all those things. So. Yeah, yeah.

C (15:54)

But it's all connected like that, you know, like, even in statistics, you know, like, how many innocent people are in prison, how many of them are not white, how many of them are because of, you know, low level drug offense. Like, it all is connected.

B (16:06)

Yeah.

A (16:06)

Yeah. I think that's so interesting that you found that two years ago. I think it's very similar to how the audience listening habits have changed over time with True Crime. I think we can all go back to when we were first starting and how either graphic or maybe unintentionally, like, rude about situations, right? Like things that were happening in either the victim's lives or the perpetrators lives or whatever. And we saw this kind of change gradually happen where we now, like, start talking about ethics like I do in advocacy and all of this stuff. Right? And it changed for me too, I think. And so I became more comfortable, I think, in my own podcast skin, to be like, yeah, I don't want people who think that my friends are terrible human beings simply because they're gay or because they're trans or whatever. Like, these are real people in my life who I love and care about. And so I'm gonna be outspoken about it. And I don't. I'm not, you know, like, proselytizing on my podcast about true crime or anything like that. But, you know, if it matches my humor a little bit, where I do have a very sarcastic flair sometimes. So if I say something in the script that is, you know, I use their. Their chosen name and not their dead name. What? Like, it's hard, like, you know, poking fun at things like that. Like, it's. It's a very easy thing to do. So I think that that's. It's not surprising that that's when you found your, you know, kind of your footing and realization that, like, this is yours. Right? Like, I create a podcast that I like to listen to, that if I were not me, not the creator, I would still like my podcast. I would listen to it because I enjoy the topic or I enjoy the way that the case is unfolding and stuff like that. And so I think as long as you're happy with your show. To me, like, I love that I have listeners that help my show be successful, but I also know that, like, at the, at the core of it, I have to be okay with the product for sure.

B (17:55)

But it's like that, that dance in the first two years even, like, I don't even have to put it on a time like you do 50 episodes or something, and you hear people say, you know, the music's kind of, kind of long in the beginning, that music bed's kind of long, or you guys should get to the story a little bit quicker. Or, you know, I don't really, I don't shop at that place. So I don't even like when you mention that store. And if you allow yourself to become like a victim of criticism, you will end up, like you said, you'll end up making something that you don't recognize. Like, if you're just like, this is for Steve2727 on Instagram. He's always telling me what he thinks about the podcast. So now I've made it the perfect podcast for him. And it's not, it's not about what you're trying to say anymore. It's just about you trying to like, conform to some imaginary audience. And most people who take the time out to comment on Instagrams and things like this, they're like such a small percentage of your audience. It doesn't even make any difference. So to capitulate to that is like, you're self defeating.

A (18:56)

Yeah. How do you deal with that, Jillian? Like, you have a much bigger show in that sense, so you probably get a lot more like reach outs, I would think, through social media than I do.

C (19:09)

You know, it's just, I think just in general, there's been a conversation lately about the kind of severe lack of media literacy and the understanding of nuance in conversations. Lately I've been noticing a trend more and more about just this sort of like moral superiority and the ethics Olympics that people want to win and sort of making it like, if we're covering a documentary, we're talking about things just for an example, right? We're covering a documentary, which is what our show is. We're talking about the context of what is going on in this world in These four walls of the documentary. So when we're commenting on something that happens here, it is specific to the 90 minute piece of media that we are discussing. It is not a blanket statement. It is not an opinion, is not a fact. If it's my opinion, then that, you know what I'm saying and that, that is general for everybody, I think so. There's a lot of, like, there's a lot of what about ism. There's a lot of the Bean Soup theory. There's a lot of that that is sort of like. It makes me sad more than anything because I think as if that's who you are as a listener, you're kind of ruining your own experience.

B (20:28)

Yeah, the bean soup theory is. It's so crucial to like getting over any kind of like imposter syndrome or anything in creation, because it's like to get a comment when you make something of like, I hate when documentaries are funny. It's like, but that's like, that's what we just covered is a documentary that has like a, it has a comedic undertone. So, like, maybe this episode just isn't for you. Maybe like for that to be your complaint is like. But that's like the whole point. We can't change that part of it. And that's just so many people that are like, this isn't for me. And I think a lot of people just need to become okay with that. Like, everything isn't for everybody.

C (21:03)

Right. And, and having said all of that, I love the conversations that I've had with listeners where I'm learning things, I'm changing my opinion on things, the growth. Like, of course, it's not that I'm not open to that. I have, I have some DMs that go back years just with people who are like, oh, this person's, you know, not screaming at me because, you know, they think like, there's one. And I'm, I'm starting to hear in myself and in my real life totally justifying things for like two minutes before I say the statement I want to say or saying like, you know, I can't remember what it was, but it was like, not all tugboat captains. If you're married to one, if your dad was one, if you are one, then awesome. But this one sucks. So, like, it, it started to become the way that I spoke about things, which totally takes away from how the show started and what the intention was. But it's, it's seeping into my real life. And there are people who know me who Are like, obviously the context is whatever, but, like, when you hear it so much, you do want to. This fear, it's not even really a fear because it happens of being so deliberately misunderstood sometimes can be hard because all I want to do is tell the story in a way that makes sense and in an accessible way, in a respectful way, in a way that's going to make change happen in a way that might change a mind or something. So I will absolutely, kind of obnoxiously over the top be like, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but.

B (22:33)

Yeah.

C (22:33)

And I want to get away from that because we. I can't. Like, you're saying I can't talk to the people who are just, like, gonna go out of their way to not get the nuance or not be like, oh, wait, they're talking about this one episode of this one thing and this person in particular.

B (22:49)

Yeah.

C (22:50)

And if it doesn't apply to me, like, there are times where I've said, like, if this doesn't apply to you, congratulations, that's a good thing. That's a really great thing that you didn't have this bad experience in this one thing, but this person did. So what do you want?

B (23:01)

And it takes the bite. It takes the bite off the take. You know, like, we're, We're. We're here, we're spitballing. We're creating. If I go, if you wear barrel jeans, you should go to jail. And it's like, well, well, I wear barrel jeans. And it's like, well, not you.

A (23:14)

Like, I don't know. Like, yeah, like, not you go to jail.

B (23:17)

Barrel. I don't like barrel jeans. Like, that's. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm just trying to say that. And then. But now I have to have this. Like, we're having this dissertation. We're talking about the history of fashion caring that much. Like, it's just.

A (23:28)

I wish I could. I wish I could.

C (23:30)

I wish I had that energy. And that's the other thing, too. And I do want to stress that, like, I love the journey and the growth and learning things and people reaching out and being like, hey, you know, X profession here. This is why this happens. Or this, you know, when it comes in, like, a conversation and then it's like, cool, I learned something. Or like, oh, I was 100 wrong about this. And then moving forward, yeah, I'll not do that. Or I'll make it. Or, like, I can't tell you how many times I'll even say on the show, like, oh, a listener reached out and told me this. So I, like, egg on my face. Totally. Whatever. I love that part of it because I think all of us here, we're here because we're curious people. And so I would never be like, absolutely not. But one. If you come screaming at me and name calling and assuming the worst just for the sake of it, then it's going to be harder for us to have a conversation, which I love having.

B (24:22)

Yeah.

A (24:22)

You know? Yes. And I think, like, so I'm a huge, like, call you on your shit kind of person. That's just how I am. And I have, like, my own, like, ethics and standards that I abide by. And I think it's. I think it was such a great thing that you said that, like, there are these people who, like, have kind of just a black or white version of what, like, ethics mean within true crime and stuff like that. And I think it varies from person to person and listener to listener. There are people who are focused the way I am on certain things, and I find that there are other creators who are probably way more ethical than I am. Right. Like, I look at Josh, for instance, and while you wouldn't necessarily think it, with just listening to the show, when you get the peek behind the scenes and the things that go into creating true crime BS and how he works with families and all of this stuff, you're kind of like, oh, shit. Like, you really do have a process. Like, I could understand why there's, you know, some people who may look at it and be like, oh, you're just profiting off of this, or you're, like, running off of this. But the behind the scenes is kind of what makes the biggest difference. And so I think that it's such a important message to put out there that, like, just because you have your own ethics, morals, and values that you live by, that everybody else does, too, and they may not match yours, but that does not make them a bad person, a terrible creator, and it doesn't mean that they shouldn't create their shows. Right. Like, there are people within podcasting that I disagree with strongly. Will I support them? Probably not. But do I think that their platform should be taken away? No. Like, absolutely not. Like, this is something that is so fulfilling for me that I can't imagine it's not fulfilling for them in the same way.

B (26:00)

Yeah. But I agree with that. It goes back to everything not being for everybody. Right. And it's like, you know, I feel like everybody should have a compass, you know, And I feel like There's a floor for ethics and integrity in this space where you're like, this is. Everybody should be doing this. I might go, you know, a step above this, but, like, everybody should be doing this. And I think that if you're doing this for all the right reasons, you can recognize that when you see it. When you recognize somebody, just as like, guys, I got some crime scene photos. Join our Patreon. See them exclusively. Like, you just know it when you see it. You're like, that's terrible. You're a terrible person. And I'm going to make sure that people know about this.

A (26:39)

Yeah.

B (26:40)

But there's also other stuff in the space where I'm like, I don't know. Like, I probably wouldn't make that my merch or something, you know, like. But it's not my business, you know, like, it's not my business. Like, they. They have an audience, and I'm sure I haven't heard anything that's, like, objectively, they're terrible people and, like, you know, hanging up on victims, family members, when they're asking them to not do something or something like that. It's like, if you're not doing things like that, then I'm like, this probably just isn't for me. But I respect that you're in the space and you're doing some level of work, because if we're telling stories that don't get a lot of attention, if you're working to try to solve a cold case with your platform or something, you're doing some level of good. Yeah, there are people who just are here to tell stories. My podcast is. We tell stories. We try to tell stories that don't get told very often. And so I hope that that helps in some kind of way. But, you know, if it ever comes a time where I'm like, we don't even care. And we're just. Just on here because we're making money and, you know, just like, I don't know, we got another one this week, then I would stop doing it because now I feel like I'm dropping below the floor of, like, what's ethical to be trying to do anything in this space.

C (27:42)

Yeah, for sure.

A (27:44)

Okay, so another question. I love figuring out, like, how you get into your recording mode and everything like that, because I took a break in September after my dad passed away, and so it was really kind of like, anxiety inducing to want to come back into the booth and come and be like, okay, like, here I go. I'm gonna do. I'm gonna step into this again when it was something that was just so, like, habitual for me for the past, like, however many years that I've been doing this, like, every, you know, every week I'm stepping in and I'm recording. And then I took this really long break and I was like, well, you know, what do I do? So how do you kind of get into the mindset of where you're going to record? Because sometimes this is people's least favorite part to do. Right. Like, they like writing the script, they like doing the research, but then jumping in front of the mic is sometimes, like, so daunting and everything. So how do you each prepare to really get behind the mic, get settled into that mindset to be able to do what you're going to do and deliver, you know, a compelling episode? So you hope.

B (28:36)

Well, you record by yourself, right?

A (28:38)

I do. Thank God.

B (28:39)

That's half the battle. Julia, you go ahead.

C (28:42)

Well, I was just. I was so surprised to hear you say that. Jumping on the mic could be someone's least favorite part. Because that's where I work my shit out.

A (28:51)

Right.

B (28:51)

Just get your reps in. Just like, yeah, kind of. It's a release.

C (28:55)

But you.

A (28:56)

You guys don't follow a script, right, for your show. Yeah, that's probably part of the show. I have a script and so, like, I'm very structured. Like, I can't riff on my. I mean, I probably could, but I can't because it'll mess my brain up. I'd be like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm new.

C (29:08)

Yeah, yeah, no, no, I hear that, I hear that.

A (29:11)

So what do you do? Like, how do you get into that mode to want to be kind of focused in on whatever documentary you're doing and then you have to kind of play off the other person too? Like, I don't have an experience really like that where I'm working with somebody else in that manner.

C (29:24)

Yeah, you know, we. So I. A 90 minute documentary will probably take me three to four hours to take notes on at the very least. So I'll watch it once all the way through just to, like, see what it is, and then pause.

B (29:38)

And then. And then pause, watch.

C (29:39)

And then pause, watch. So people are like, oh, all you do is watch documentaries. I'm like, do you think I have popcorn? Because I have to be typing. Sponsor her stint.

B (29:48)

They have on a Von Dutch hat, those little. Yeah.

C (29:53)

So like, so I'll watch it once all the way through and to see if it's good for us. To cover if it makes sense for us to do, you know, like, I'll vet it. Then I'll probably watch it maybe like one or two more times before I take my notes. So I kind of know this is all stuff, by the way, that I learned by doing.

B (30:07)

Yeah.

C (30:08)

You know, like, I've made the mistake. So it's like, oh, I focus way too hard on one thing, and then it's like, oh, that never comes back anyway, or, you know, whatever. So learn to do that. Then I'll stop and take the notes. And it'll probably end up being around 4. It's like a Google Doc. So it'll be like 40ish pages usually on average of writing everything down, doing my little side Google, seeing if there's anything I any, like deep dive or rabbit hole. And then watch it again right before the recording. And then Patrick and I record Tuesdays and Thursdays for the most part. And then two episodes per recording in the booth. So it'll be a regular feed episode and a Patreon episode every time we record in the booth. And then we'll do after parties and stuff. And that's more like listener questions or AMAs or whatever. So that's a. It's a full day of being in this world and then having to be like, okay, so here's like an art heist, which is always a little easier. And then it'll be like, oh. And then it's like one of the hardest things I've ever had to cover, which is stalking Samantha on Hulu, which is absolutely excellent, but it's very traumatizing what this woman went through and how she did it. And especially as a survivor of many of the things that we cover, that can be a little tough. But that's why I say, like. And then I work my shit out on the mic, and if I'm mad, I'm mad. And if, you know, I want to focus on something to help me get through it. I mean, there were times, I mean, I'll be totally, totally honest, stalking Samantha was really hard for me. And I was in the recording having, like, flashbacks of things that have happened to me. And I had to, like, stop for a second and, like, put my feet on the floor. And Patrick was like, are you good? Are you good? I was like, no, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it. Which is something I say all the time. Like, I don't know. I can get through it. And then I, like, suffer on the way home. But it's, you know, it's something to keep in mind, you know, for sure. So now I'll be like, let's not do a so sexual assault heavy Patreon series, you know, those three episodes. And you know, so we'll try to. For my own peace of mind, like mental safety. Yeah, yeah.

A (32:07)

You know, you need it.

C (32:08)

So shifting gears into two completely separate stories it can be, you know, I just. I kind of just have to learn on the fly. Usually it changes all the time depending on what's going on, you know. Yeah. What about you, Alvin?

B (32:21)

I would agree with that. The changing on the fly part. Me and my co host Fran, we took an acting class like a couple years ago just to like, just to figure out how to gel on microphone better. It's like, you know, it's like you're constantly trying to sharpen swords when you have a co host. Like you just want to know how to play off of each other and like feel the dead air and stuff. So we took a. We went to an acting class, did like, like some improv exercises and like some warm ups and so we'll like implement some of those things like, you know, like just going through breathing exercises before we start. I'll hit record and then we'll just talk for 10 minutes. So we get a couple riffs in and do a couple bits before we like go into the episode. So we both like loosen up and everything like that. As far as.

C (33:04)

Like that.

A (33:05)

Yeah, that's so cool.

B (33:06)

You just gotta not. You just gotta like knock some stuff out of yourself before you just go in. Just right and just record and just talk now.

A (33:12)

Yeah.

B (33:13)

You know, so we just try to always try to come in a little loose, especially if we're gonna be talking about something more heavy than average. Just because for what we do, we try to walk a line of current events and pop culture references, but also like keeping the story at the forefront and like being respectful. So if you come in like a deer in headlights and you tell like this crazy story, it's very somber. Which we learn from experience where it's like, if we don't come in loose, then we're both like, yeah. And then this thing happened and it's really heavy and. Wow.

A (33:48)

Yeah.

B (33:48)

And we just have no words for it because we didn't like loosen up before we went in. So we try to do that.

C (33:54)

Do you guys kind of plan your direction? Because Patrick and I don't like. We take our notes and there have been many times, a few times that I'm thinking of even recently where we totally disagree completely, and we don't talk about it first. So. So then we'll get to one section, and he'll say, oh, why this? And I'd be like, really? Oh, I totally didn't see that. Or like, oh, that. I thought that was crazy. Or he didn't think it was crazy or whatever. So how do you handle that?

B (34:19)

Yeah, no, we definitely do that. Because, you know, for anybody listening to this, who, if you know my co host, it's like, he's like, the definition of a wild card. So if I tried to plan things with him, it would just infuriate me if I'm like, this story is like a Julia Roberts movie. And he's like, who's Julia Roberts?

A (34:36)

Yeah.

B (34:36)

Like, that's the person who I do a podcast with. So it's like, instead of me trying to come up with a roadmap for us where I'm gonna get frustrated, let's just do that on microphone. And there's a value in me getting mad at you on live on mic for you not knowing who Julia Roberts is, which is literally a thing that happens.

A (34:57)

Yeah.

B (34:58)

So, yeah, no, I kind of just. We just drop in. I send them the notes of the story, but I don't tell them. Like, I think this or like, this seems like this kind of thing to me, because I want him to be raw, and I want my reactions to the things that inevitably shock him or his conclusions that he comes to. They blow me away every time. So I like to just let him do his thing.

A (35:22)

Yeah.

C (35:22)

Laney, do you, like, live by deadlines if you're writing your own script?

A (35:26)

Like, how do you know when you know? Well, no, I'm very thankful, very lucky. Cause, you know, luck is what you make it. So I have a wonderful team behind the scenes who's able to support the show with research and writing and stuff like that. So I really come in because being in front of the mic is my favorite thing. Like, I do voiceovers and stuff like that. So that is what brings me joy. And so I was like, in order to keep this continuously fun for me and to make sure that it stays. Cause I could never do this full time. Like, I could never do this podcast, at least on my own full time. If I had my team still full time. Great, wonderful. I could probably still do it. But I can't see this as a job. I have to see this as something that fulfills me creatively and something that I look forward to doing. Because, you know, I look at my job as a job. That's what pays me, and that's what keeps me stabilized. But I need, like, I'm holding onto this being a hobby.

B (36:20)

It really sits in the skate.

A (36:22)

Yeah, 100% like, it. Making it seem like it's just a hobby is, like, you know, downplaying really, its importance to me. And I could never, like, for myself, ever envision stopping podcasting like, I am. I'm like, maybe when I'm 60, I'll be doing, like, true crime cases with Laineyhoon. I mean, unfortunately, crime will always be committed, so there's always going to be content available. But, yeah, I was like, I cannot see myself stopping. So I don't live by deadlines. I think my team wishes I did, but I do not, because oftentimes I'll. I'll just, like, spring stuff on them and say, like, hey, I really want to do this case. Sometimes at the beginning of the year, I have really great intentions and lay out my cases for the entire year, and then I'll find one that's way more interesting than the one we're gonna cover. And so I say scrap all of that. Save it for later. Save it for a rainy day. We're gonna do xyz. And so I'm very thankful for them. But, yes, I'm too type B to be a type A, so for sure.

B (37:20)

No, I get that. Jillian, I have a question. From what you were just talking about as far as being in this space and, like, going out and, you know, when you cultivate listeners and all these things, how hard is it to, like, interact with the parasocial relationship based on some of your experiences? When you're talking about watching a, you know, a documentary, being tough, like, is.

C (37:42)

That hard to do that, to interact with people?

B (37:47)

Yeah, because, like, it's always this excitement, and then, you know, it's. But there's. You guys are strangers, but they're excited. And it is this, like, It's a weird dynamic in this.

C (37:56)

In this industry, you know, Look, I'm gonna. I'm so grateful for the people who listen to the show, and I never in my wildest dreams ever thought that anything I. I would say would resonate with anyone. So the fact that there are people who come to me who feel seen by something that I said, even if it was like a little throwaway line, whether me being an only child or me being child free by choice or being bisexual or being whatever, adhd, whatever it is, people feeling seen and heard, like, that's a major win for me. Sometimes there are people who really want to talk about really, really, really, really heavy things. And I see that as a sign that they trust me and that they feel safe around this world that we've created, which I think is really beautiful. I think sometimes context is where it's happening, I think also matters. Right. So, you know, if, you know, we do live shows or events, like, that's part of the gig. Like, that's. Of course. I totally know that people, you know, want to cry with me or. Or laugh or show me something or tell me something, and I feel it's an honor for that.

B (39:11)

Yeah.

C (39:12)

Sometimes there are people who I think want to relate on a level where it's like, oh, that's not it. Where it's like, oh, I know this is a trigger for you, so I want to show it to you. And that's kind of like, what.

B (39:24)

Yeah, I don't. Don't bring that up to. Don't bring that up to me.

C (39:27)

Right.

B (39:27)

I forgot I said that on microphone. You were going to throw that thing in my face that I.

C (39:31)

Right. And I just think it's like, for the most part, the intentions are always good. And I know that. Right. But sometimes it'll. Like, sometimes I'm like, oh, I think we have a very cool, totally normal Instagram DM happening. And then, yeah, the line will be crossed. And then I'm like, it was fun while it lasted, but now we can't. We can't continue that, unfortunately.

B (39:56)

You know, this is where I leave you.

C (40:00)

100%. But I know for the most part, a lot of the time, the intentions are good. Sometimes people just want to fight, and I'm not going to do that. Yeah, I won't. I won't do that.

A (40:10)

I love feeding a troll. Like, that's probably one of my. Oh, my God, it is so fun.

B (40:15)

It. I feed the trolls from time to time, but only. Only when I just know that what they are fighting about is they are so wrong. Like, opinions are opinions, but sometimes you're like, you're so wrong that it's funny to just, like, make fun of yourself, indulge in this and just like point and figure and point fingers.

C (40:32)

Where do you do this? Do you do this in your DMs?

A (40:33)

Everywhere? Yes, wherever possible. Just like everywhere.

B (40:36)

IRL if I can. If it comes up. It's rare that you're somewhere in public and you're like, oh, you're like a real bonehead. Like a real straight up.

A (40:44)

Yes.

B (40:45)

There's no saving you. You just are like walking around with horse blinders on.

A (40:49)

Yes.

B (40:50)

So let's. Let's have a good time about it.

A (40:51)

Yeah, it's a lot of fun. So I run the True Crime Podcast Festival, and I'm sometimes surprised by, like, some of the creators who go. That I've never, like, interacted with or seen or whatever. So sometimes them coming is like, the first time I've met them. Or even listeners who are coming to, like, either see this, like, very random show that I'm like, oh, it's so cool that you, like, see you have listeners who are willing to come and see you. I think that's. I think that's amazing. But, yeah, like, I've had so many uncomfortable conversations since 2019, when it first started every year practically with somebody usually on the listener side, who has, like, a crazy fan theory or who has, like an opinion about this because they think that it's my opinion and stuff like that. And so they'll say kind of like wildly out of pocket things where I'm like, no, that's not. I kind of, like, play into it a little bit because I think it's kind of funny. And then I'm like, no, you see this? I was joking. Like, this is ridiculous. Like, this is not a thing. That's not a real life thing. Yeah.

B (41:46)

It's the unique experience of the parasocial space.

A (41:50)

Yes.

B (41:50)

Where it's like, you're talking to somebody who's like, oh, I know you, like, you're like, you're the homie. But then, for example, like, we did a show here in Baltimore and this person came to the show, and they're great, nice and everything. But after the show, when I was walking out, I was walking my girlfriend to her car, and they went, you sound taller on the microphone. And I just was like, that was. No one had to say that. Why would you say that? Like, that Never. Who had to. Why would you say that to my face?

A (42:17)

But it's like, somebody sounds tall.

B (42:19)

That's a great question. I also was perplexed as well in the moment as I'm standing next to my girlfriend and this person just, like, just shot me in my face.

C (42:26)

Yeah.

B (42:27)

And I was like, you know, like, I don't. I don't know you, though. You know, Like, I was like, that was like, wow. But if I've made this person laugh, if I've made this person think, they're like. And they've been responding to me in their car, so it's like, we're homies. Like, so they're like, I just. Would. I Just was being open and honest with you. And I, while I appreciated it, I also was like off put because it's like. But like, I've never. Why would you say that to me?

C (42:51)

You know, also too, like, something that I always keep in mind is that even though the true crime space has definitely exploded in the last several years, no question, and people I think are a little more, for lack of a better term, out of the closet about their interest in it, I think it's still hard to have those conversations in the real world. So when listeners feel seen and heard by us or understood by us, I think it's different. I experienced that a lot with the Hamilcast too, because there was a time where it's like, oh, everyone is sick and tired of me talking about this thing and you're not. And I'm not, you know, like, I'd be like, tell me everything, tell me what you. You know, I still get emails where it's like, I saw this person in the cast and she was my Angelica and she was amazing. I'm like, oh my God. So we're a safe space for them to talk about things that like they probably can't talk about at the dinner table. So that's, you know, that's another thing too that I always say, fun, positive perspective.

A (43:46)

Like, I like flippy things to a positive and so I like it. It's really great.

C (43:51)

A vast majority of my interactions are phenomenal and lovely and cool.

A (43:56)

That's true, yes.

C (43:57)

Educational and interesting and like, you know. But then there are people who are like, I'm just not, I'm not going to do that with you. Like, I'm just not. And it's a shame, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. But whatever. I'd rather the positive for sure.

B (44:13)

I would agree, like, most experiences are positive. I met somebody in Columbus, we did a show in Columbus and after the show they were like, we work at District west, which is where Virginia west is, like the director of the drag night there. And they were like, come. And I was like, we'll pack it up. And it was a great night. Like, we got jello shots. And it was, you know, we were in Columbus, we didn't know anybody. And so this parasocial relationship is like, I don't know this person, but I trusted this person enough that they, they came out to see us and it's like, yeah, you're going, you're going to this thing. I blindly was like, we got in our rental car and we just went And I was just like, here, gave us the address. And I was like, let's just go. Like, they got to be a decent person. They came to see us, and it's that. That blind trust that, you know, most of the time it pays off. Most of the time you're dealing with a super cool person who's like minded and all these things. And that's most of the time. The interactions and experiences that I've had.

A (45:05)

For sure, for sure. Do you guys remember the first time somebody recognized your voice before they recognized you? Ooh.

C (45:16)

It's. Well, it's a little unfair for me because it's usually the hair.

B (45:21)

Yeah, you're recognizable. You're, like, very spottable.

C (45:24)

Sometimes it's more from afar because of the hair.

B (45:28)

Yeah.

C (45:28)

So I feel like it's also very.

A (45:30)

Long, which I thought it was short. Oh, good to know.

C (45:34)

No, I'm thinking about cutting it, though.

A (45:36)

I would do it.

B (45:36)

Do it.

A (45:36)

It's hot.

B (45:37)

It's the end of the year. Go into the first quarter winter.

A (45:40)

Why not? Honestly, I don't know.

C (45:42)

I'm thinking about it.

B (45:42)

But 2026 is the year of statements.

A (45:44)

Ooh, okay.

C (45:46)

Say less. No. What about you guys?

B (45:52)

I don't think I have a very, like, distinct voice. The first time that I ever met somebody from doing the podcast was like, six months into doing the podcast. We would do this thing called Serial and cereal, where we would watch serial killer documentaries and review a new cereal, whatever the cereal is. We go to the store and we had a whole Rotten Tomatoes score for how good a cereal is and all these things. And somebody was like, I love your podcast. Can I meet you at a Barnes and Nobles? We actually just are in Baltimore, which is where I live, and we got a cereal for you. And again, like, and. But again, how dumb am I? I was like, yeah, like, I will absolutely come meet you. It's like, get food from you.

A (46:35)

Oh, well. Yeah.

B (46:37)

And so, yeah, that was like my first experience with like, oh, like, anybody listens to this? Because the approach I took when we started the podcast, I was like, I'm not gonna spam my Facebook page and, like, tell my people that I went to high school with to listen to this. I was like, if anybody's gonna listen to this, they're gonna listen to it because they like it. So that was like my first experience. And this stranger being like, I listen to this thing that you make, would love to meet you, and here's a reference to a thing that you do. So that was like my first experience. But Nobody's ever been, like, I did get spotted at a farmer's market, like, this year. That was you, like, walking. I was just walking. And they were like. And again, I'm with my girlfriend and being stopped by a woman and them pointing and being like, hey. I was like, I don't know who this. I don't know who this person is, I swear. But they're like, no, I listen to the podcast da da da da. And that was really cool because that doesn't happen very often, so. But it wasn't off of the Voice. I don't think my voice really.

A (47:28)

Really.

B (47:29)

I don't think I.

A (47:29)

But that's also because I'm, like, a weirdo. Like, I'm an editor, too. So I like, yeah.

B (47:33)

You hear the notes?

A (47:35)

Yeah. I feel. I was like. I feel like you're.

C (47:37)

What about you, Lainey?

A (47:38)

I think mine was at. Was only thinking about it because I remember the first time I heard, like, Justin and Aaron first before meeting them, and I was like, oh, my God, where are they? Like, this is crazy. And I think it was at a criminal conference that I hate. And it was. I think it. I think it was the one in Tennessee or whatever. And I was just, like, walking around, and I was at another friend's table or something like that, and they stopped me, and they were like, are you Lainey? And at the time, my podcast was True Crime Fan Club. And so I was like, yeah, I am. And that made me so uncomfortable because I was like, ew. Don't, like, don't meet me in person. Like, this is strange to me. Like, I don't want you to know me like that because I don't like attention. Right? Like, this is why I do this, because I'm like, I'm behind the mic. You don't see me or anything like that. But. And, like, creating content for social media to me is also still very different because it's so personalized. Like, I'm filming by myself. I'm not with anybody else, and stuff like that. So I'm like, once it's out there, it's. I don't really care. But, like, if you were to meet me in person and be like, oh, wow, I love your show, I'd be, like, disgusting. Don't ever tell me that. I tell people all the time. Like, when my coworkers find out I do a show or whatever, I'm like, don't tell me if you listen to it, please. If you don't like it, if you like it, if you. Whatever. I Don't wanna know. I don't.

B (48:57)

That's why I like that audacity question, though, because it's like, I love attention. You know what I mean?

A (49:03)

Well, you did stand up, which I think is so cool.

B (49:05)

Yeah, I love to have conversations and give my perspective and be silly or whatever. I just enjoy it. So it's like, for some people, it's like, I'm here to do the work, you know, Like, I'm here to tell a story. I'm here to. I'm a podcaster and I tell it, but I'm like, I'll. I'll do a podcast with no microphones or anything. I'll do a podcast in a bar. Like, we can talk right here for an hour, and I might not even care about what you're talking about. But I just like, yeah, I like the engagement, you know, Gabbin.

A (49:30)

Yeah, I like the engagement, not necessarily the attention. So, like, if we're doing, like, a live show together, I love that and stuff like that. Like, we've traveled for live shows. Love that. But not the. I guess, like, the fan of it all. I don't like that type of interaction for me because it makes me feel, again, how I grew up. It makes me feel very, like, conceited. Right. It makes me go like, oh, well, who do I think I am? Like, walking around, somebody says, like, they're a fan of mine, and it's like, I'm not anybody to be a fan of. I'm just like, Lainey Hobbs. That's who I am and stuff, though I was like, I think it's just like, a mindset thing, too. It's like, you kind of just have to balance that mindset with, like, I've worked hard, you know, I've put in a lot of effort for what I've created. And so, yes, you should be able to, like, rest on your laurels, but also still have a really good, I think, mindset and humility when it comes to what you do. Because this could be taken away. I mean, we've seen people 100%, you know, for anything, like, not being canceled. I don't really. I think canceling is stupid, but in some capacity. But I do think that it is possible that this could be taken away. Right. And so, like, having some humility of going, like, yeah, I can be Lainey Hobbs, a podcaster, but I'm also more than that, beyond this, for sure. So, like, keeping that in mind, I think is what helps me. But, yeah, it makes me very uncomfortable.

B (50:49)

When people are like, I like your show.

A (50:51)

Don't, Don't.

C (50:53)

But you work so hard at it, you know?

A (50:55)

Yeah, well, I know that, but, like, it makes me feel weird. Like, somebody acknowledged acknowledging that. For me, I guess I'm like, yeah, I know I've worked hard and stuff, but it's still like. I think it's just like the Catholic guilt, even though I'm not Catholic, where you're like, but I didn't deserve it. I didn't do a thing for it.

B (51:12)

That's why, again, like, when I say, like, you know, for me, it goes, I was a class clown. I like entertaining people devoid of a podcast, you know, so it's like, I think that when I've met so many people in the space laning, and I'm glad you can confirm you are where it's like, having a podcast is like, what is their ID Like? They're like, I. This is my podcast, and I'm a successful pod. And it's like, I've done things outside of podcasting that give me a confidence that it's not about podcasting. I would be doing these things in any space that I'm in. And so it's like, it helps me with my everyday thoughts of, like, what if, like, everybody just hates this podcast tomorrow? Which is something I constantly think about when you talk about it being taken away, I'm like, what if everybody that does like the podcast tomorrow, they're like, I don't like this anymore. And then what do you do then? You know, like, so, you know, I think that when I go. But, you know, then I would just talk about true crime. Me and Fran will go to Chili's and we'll just talk about true crime stories.

C (52:11)

Like, that's the app sampler. I was gonna say, get that app sampler.

B (52:15)

We'll triple dip it up and we'll just talk about. We'll talk about some true crime stuff, you know, so it's like, that helps me because, I mean, every day I'm like, what if. Like, what if people just are like, nah, never mind.

C (52:26)

Yeah. Yeah. That is not an unfamiliar thought. Of course.

A (52:32)

Yeah. Would you still encourage somebody to start a true crime podcast, given the saturation we see here?

C (52:41)

Oh, sure. Why not?

B (52:42)

If that's what you like to do. I always tell people, anybody who asks for advice, I'm like, do you want to do it? Or are you just like, I'm going to make a crocheting true crime podcast? Because I think that that's unique and I can get ad dollars from this Yarn. If that's where you're starting, you're not gonna. You're gonna quit. It's not. You need to like it first. Like, I think that that's part of the oversaturation is people are like, this is a great pivot. Like, I can do this. And true crime, Like, I already do this. That's not really going great. But what if I did this while I told a true crime story? And it works, you know, because like you said, crime stories are never going anywhere. People have a deep fascination with the macabre. There's always going to be somebody who's happy to, like, pull up a chair and hear you tell, like, a horrible story or, like, even something like twists and turns. So it's like, if you just want to tell stories, I would say, yeah, but if you are looking to make money, you're starting off from a very bad place and it's not going to work out for you.

C (53:44)

Well, my whole thing is try it. You never know what it's going to lead you to. Or it's also totally fine to change your mind. It's completely okay no matter how much you promoted it, no matter how much you psyched yourself up or whatever. If in two weeks into it, you're like, I absolutely hate this. Stop doing it and start running towards the thing that you would rather be doing than making your show. Because that's totally fine too. And I feel like people absolutely have a lot of like, well, I said I was gonna do it, and so. But then you're just gonna. Resentment is gonna grow and grow and grow, and you're not gonna be happy about anything in your life. So it's okay to be like, oh, I thought I wanted to do this. I totally don't. Like, that doesn't. That's not a bad thing?

B (54:27)

No, not at all. Because this space, like, if you are really enjoy it, obviously you understand how heavy it can be. But when you are also trying to come at it from an entertainment perspective, there is nothing more draining than, like, this is something he. I just watched the Sean Combs Reckoning, like, all of that ho ho. And it is so, like, Jesus, heavy. And it's like the idea that, like, if I was gonna fire up some extra Patreon content and do a deep dive on the episodes, it's like, so I watched this heavy thing. Jillian, you know this very well. I watched this heavy thing. Now I have to record this heavy thing and then edit this thing and go hear it again. And then I have to speak about it. And talk about the. And so it's this weight that comes over you from doing this type of content that's like, if you don't like that, you can just stop, like. Cause you might just go. True Crime. I like, you know, Cold Case Files, and I watched the Night of. You know, That's a great show.

C (55:25)

That is so good.

B (55:26)

Yeah, I think that got a lot of people in the True. Like, that's a great. Like, it's a great show. But, like, you might watch that and go, I can do that. And then you do it for two weeks, and you're like, oh, my. The world is terrible. Everybody's evil. I'm, like, always in a blanket now. I haven't been outside in two days. And so, like, why put yourself through that? So, like. Like, Jillian said, like, give it a try. But you'd be surprised how much this shit could just, like, put you in a funk.

C (55:51)

But it might inspire you to be like, well, I don't want to do that, but I do want to do this. I do want to work for the Innocence Project, or I do want to do genetic genealogy.

A (56:01)

Like, how cool.

C (56:01)

You know, 100%. You kind of never know where something's gonna lead you.

A (56:06)

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's so true, because I say the same thing. I'm always like, get in the habit of creating first. Like, don't go into it. Like, I always tell people, do 12 episodes without publishing any one of them. If you can show up either every week, every, you know, two weeks or every month and publish an episode, or create an episode and do what you need to do, and you have 12 of those done, you've built the habit, then you can keep going. But you really do have to love podcasting. You really do have to love creating content. You cannot just come into it going, like, yeah, I'm just gonna do some basic Google research. Because we also have learned, I think, during our time of researching that there are so many different presentations on how a crime happens. Right. And some of it's incorrect. So if you're basically going off of, say, a person who was wrongfully convicted, if you just go by the court records, majority of that information is now wrong. Right. And you would think that it's a credible source because it led to a conviction and all of so.

C (57:04)

Or it's like the official court documents.

A (57:06)

Exactly. And I was like, so there has to be a level of, like, discernment that you also are able to do that. You kind of have to let go of the perceptions you have as an individual. And I don't think I would have been able to do that without podcasting. Like defense attorneys I thought were evil, terrible scumbags. Some of them are. But luckily the ones I've met through podcasting are not. So.

B (57:31)

Yeah.

A (57:31)

But it changed, like, my mindset a lot. And I think that's what's so incredible about this, is that you have an opportunity if you enter this space, kind of closed minded because of your own just like personal experiences to the outside world that you get exposed to so many people and their lifestyles and what makes them them. Right. Like their. Their childhood and all of that stuff, or their life experiences as an adult and what either changed them or put them in a path to become a victim. Unfortunately, you get kind of that perspective, which not a lot of people get. You sometimes just get the headlines. But by doing the research and kind of really diving deep into that, you. You get a different perspective. And I can't see how you're not changed by doing that.

B (58:14)

Yeah.

C (58:14)

And also recognizing the patterns. Oh, this keeps happening.

A (58:18)

Yeah.

C (58:18)

To this kind of person or this situation or this. I wonder why that is.

A (58:23)

Yeah.

C (58:23)

And it's not systemic.

A (58:26)

Yeah. It's not like an excuse like you were talking about earlier, like, everything is political. It is plain and simple, you know, and everybody has different experiences based off of the political spectrum that they're a part of, whether they are inherently or just because, again, systematically they're put there and that way. So, yeah, I think it's. It's really incredible. But we are ending or nearing our final time, I believe. Right. So let's wrap it up, you guys. And I like to end on a positive note. Right. So who would be your dream guest? Like, if you could have a co host, somebody to fill in for Patrick or somebody to fill in for Fran one day, who would be your dream guest or expert or whoever to come on the show that you maybe could manifest for 2026. Mm.

B (59:16)

Does one come to you, Jillian?

A (59:17)

And it doesn't have to be in True Crime. Could be anybody.

C (59:20)

Oh, well, I have a couple. My first two, we covered a series called Murder Has Two Faces. And it's awesome. It's only three episodes, unfortunately. I hope there's more coming, but it's hosted by Robin Roberts and it is showcasing other cases that were ignored because, like, a white person also went missing around the same time. Right. So it's like, what else was happening around Laci Peterson, Lacy Peterson? That is a very, very, very important case.

A (59:45)

But who the mother and daughter else.

C (59:47)

Happened in a very similar way. And it's all people of color. And Robin Roberts is an amazing. The way she gets people to trust her and the way she talks about the victims because all of the families are involved. So I would love to sit and chat with her also. Keith Morrison, obviously.

B (60:03)

Yeah, yeah, good one.

C (60:05)

You know, but Robin. Yeah, Robin Roberts, because I think she, she also, like, she can have fun, but she's like, she's a master class.

A (60:12)

Yeah.

C (60:13)

And storytelling.

A (60:14)

I think that's a good one.

B (60:15)

Those are good. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a good one.

A (60:17)

What about you?

B (60:18)

Ooh. Okay.

A (60:20)

Anybody?

B (60:21)

Anybody? Man? Okay. Is Robert Durst dead? He died.

A (60:27)

Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, I thought so. He's moved on to greener pastures that are very.

C (60:32)

Fortunately, they're not dead.

A (60:34)

Yeah, they're on fire, which is so crazy.

B (60:36)

Yeah. I'm just trying to think of somebody like that I would want to pick.

C (60:42)

You wouldn't want to spend any time with him, would you?

A (60:44)

Oh, my God.

B (60:45)

I just, I'm, I'm, I'm just like, I'm fascinated by people that could look you in your face and just, and lie to you and be like, this is the truth that I'm saying to you right now.

A (60:55)

I got a good cousin for that. You don't need one.

C (60:56)

I was gonna say, I think we all love people.

A (60:58)

I got tons of family.

B (61:00)

I would say, so I would love to just pick the brain of Dr. Nells Arden from My 600 Pound Life. I think that the psychology of food, like the mental health around food, even though he is very harsh, I think that he's seen some things that are like, it's the same, like, I have the same obsession with like hoarders where it's like the psychology around. I'm just fascinated by like the psychology of like, you know, how trauma manifests in people, what it causes them to do. So I guess it doesn't have to be Dr. Nazarender, but anybody who's a special, a specialist in that field who can like explain to me how you become a hoarder in a one on one conversation. I've seen it told a thousand times on different episodes or like, you know, like people who use food for comfort and, and, and, and shut up. Yeah. To the detriment, though, you know, like, it. Because it's like. But most of that stuff comes from trauma. So like some kind of trauma expert for sure. And Paul McCartney.

A (61:57)

Oh, hell yeah.

B (61:58)

Yeah, I would love to talk to Paul McCartney.

C (62:00)

Hell yeah.

B (62:00)

Because I just feel like there's so much drama around the Beatles. John Lennon.

A (62:04)

I feel like you have to be honest, though, Paul. Like, we gotta know. We gotta know.

C (62:08)

Can we all be honest about John Lennon for once in our lives?

A (62:10)

I mean, please, can we.

B (62:11)

Can we just keep it real about John Lennon?

A (62:12)

I didn't want to be the one, but I will if I have.

C (62:14)

I'll always be the one. I'm not like, I'll ruin Thanksgiving. I'll be like, you know what this day's really about, right?

A (62:19)

Yeah. So all the. All the stolen land were. Happy Thanksgiving, you guys.

C (62:24)

If you guys all want to have dinner on that Thursday in November and have the Mac and cheese, like, cool.

B (62:28)

But just if that's what you want to celebrate, that makes you hungry, I guess.

A (62:30)

Cool.

C (62:31)

You can celebrate being together. But, you know, you should also. Yeah, wait, Lainey, what about you? If you could have a co host.

A (62:38)

I love how I ask these questions, and then I'm like, no idea.

C (62:42)

Yeah. You think we're not gonna flip on me?

A (62:44)

I know. I was like, why would you flip this on me? I would say, gosh, that's so hard, because I watched so many. I'd probably pick a real housewife. Like, probably Bronwyn from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I love her. I think she's funny. Or maybe Jen Shaw, since she's Persona non grata now and she's never gonna be on the Bravo verse again.

C (63:03)

She just got out, didn't she?

A (63:04)

Yeah, she just got out early. Just watched it, like, our group chat, just sent it out. So insane. Yeah, I'd probably pick, like, Jen Shaw, because I have a feeling she is not at all, like, changed in any capacity.

C (63:18)

She would just lie to you too.

A (63:19)

Yeah. Which I would love.

C (63:20)

She would lie right to your face.

A (63:21)

Which, I mean, and I would welcome it openly. And then do another episode of where I, like, fact check her.

B (63:27)

Recap it. Yeah, you recap it.

A (63:28)

And then real time. Yeah. Like George Stephanopoulos, but, like, not face to face. Cause I'd be like, I want you to, like, divulge everything and, like, talk yourself into a hole. And then the next episode, I fact check the shit out of you. That'd be fun.

C (63:39)

All right, C Troll. I could do that.

A (63:42)

All right.

C (63:43)

I could be down there.

A (63:43)

I was like, it'd be fun. It would be fun. So that would be. That would be mine. But how amazing that we got to do this. We, again, are so lucky and so fortunate to have our co friend think of us in this way that, you know, blending our personalities Which I think he's just so great at doing, about finding people from all different walks of life who he loves and admires, which I know because he's said that openly about you guys before. I don't know about me, but we'll talk about that later. Me and him.

B (64:09)

Yeah, the same way he did it to you.

A (64:11)

Did he do that?

B (64:12)

Yeah, he did that to you.

A (64:13)

Because I'll text him right now and be like, text him, sir, we have moments in a hotel room. Okay. Like, help me out here. It's a story. It's a very funny story, but, yeah. So thank you all for listening, and please make sure you check the show notes. We're gonna have links to everything regarding, like, our own social medias, our platforms, all of that fun stuff. Be sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and on our various social medias. And, yeah, make sure you let Joshua know that you like these things, because we'll do them every year. And, you know, the guests lineup will always change. But just give positive feedback. Specifically on this episode, though, just say, like, this episode was the best.

B (64:55)

Say how great this is.

A (64:56)

I don't care who else is doing it. I know Kristen and Charlie are doing it too. Don't care. We are better. Okay.

B (65:01)

But seriously, let me. Let me just say, Elaine, it's always good talking you. Jillian, it was a pleasure to meet you.

C (65:06)

This was back at you.

A (65:07)

This is our first time.

C (65:09)

So fun. Thank you both for taking the time. I'm such a big. I'm such a big fan of both of you. So this was really a really, like, lovely way for me to spend my afternoon. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this.

A (65:20)

I'm.

C (65:20)

I loved it. I loved every second.

A (65:22)

Yay. All right, thanks, guys.

C (65:24)

Bye, everybody. Sam.