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True Crime with Kendall Rae
Denise Amber Lee Did Everything Right in Her Abduction but 911 Failed Her…
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- [00:00]
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- [01:01]
Kendall Ray
Foreign and welcome back to another episode of True Crime with Kendall Ray. Thank you so much for joining me today, as always, and if you're new to the show, then welcome. I'm so happy to have you here. Okay, guys, today we are getting into a case that, God, I have just so many thoughts and I don't want to ramble too much in the beginning because I'd be doing that as we know. But I was shocked that I had never heard of this case. And I just cannot believe how. I mean, it's gotten a decent amount of coverage, but I think it just needs so much more. I think it's a case that everyone should know about. And it's really something that everyone that works, especially in dispatch, but in law enforcement in general has to know about because, oh my gosh, the failures here, you guys, it was so, so preventable. Today I'm going to be telling you about the mur of an incredible woman, a mother named Denise Amber Lee. And when I tell you guys that this woman is the truest embodiment of brave, I mean that to my core. When you hear about what Denise was able to do in the midst of one of the most horrific things anyone could possibly experience, I think you'll be as speechless as I was. And I've got to say, I mean, researching these cases on a weekly basis is so emotional. This one really, really got to me. I have cried a lot while Learning about Denise and hearing some of the audio recordings. And I. There are some of them that I can't even play for you guys because they are just so disturbing. And I will explain that as we go, but, oh, my God, this one is just incredibly difficult to hear about. Denise was truly failed. It feels like this could. It very much so could have been prevented if the right steps were taken. And it's just one of those cases that makes you frustrated. Just doesn't even begin to describe it. I mean, every turn of this case, I'm just like, oh, my God, it was. She did everything right, and she was still failed. I know you guys are gonna have a lot of thoughts on this one, so I'm really looking forward to hearing all of your feedback. And with that, let's go ahead and get into Denise's case. Ann, I, of course, want to start by telling you more about who Denise was. So, Denise Amber Gough was born on August 6, 1986, in Florida to her loving parents, Susan and Rick. And she had two younger siblings, Tyler and Amanda. And while the earliest parts of her life haven't been shared in too much detail, there was definitely no shortage in learning about what an incredible person Denise was. Denise was definitely more on the more reserved, introverted, quiet side, you could say. But she also had a big personality. Personality in a lot of ways, and was a deeply passionate person. And if you got her started talking about something that she loved, there was no stopping her. She actually graduated magna cum laude from her high school, and on top of her academics, she also played flute in her school's band. Denise loved music. It was definitely a huge passion of hers, and it was one of the many things that she had in common with the boy who ended up becoming her high school sweetheart. And, oh, my gosh. And do I love their origin story. So that brings me to introducing you to Nathan Lee. Now, Nathan was also a student at Lemon Bay High School. And the way that Denise used to tell the story, she would say that he didn't know she existed. Apparently, they had a class together, and she used to joke that he didn't notice her. But Nathan says that that wasn't the case at all. In fact, he very much noticed her. He knew exactly which seat was hers, and it just, you know, took him some time to work up the courage to actually talk to her. What's funny, though, is some sources say that she ended up actually asking him out. I did read something, though, where Nathan said that he asked her if she wanted to study, so maybe they had different ideas of who asked who, but either way, it was a super cute love story. And their love story also wasted no time, which I, you know, in hindsight, with what ends up happening, I'm glad that they met so young and their relationship moved so quickly because they were able to spend as much time as possible because they were robbed of many good years together. But anyway, Valentine's Day was actually three weeks after their first date. And, I mean, that's a little tough, right? They had gotten really close in that time, but they were just starting to date. But I think they knew there was something really special here. And so they wanted to have a special Valentine's Day. And, you know, there's a lot of pressure that comes with Valentine's Day, but Denise was very chill about stuff. I don't think she was, you know, very high maintenance or expecting too much. But they went to dinner, of course, and then Nathan wanted to buy her something. And there was a little jewelry store nearby that Denise had wanted to go to, and he wanted to pick her out something special for Valentine's Day. So she ends up picking this little silver ring with a heart on it. And this is really important to remember. This ring meant a lot to her, he said, more than her engagement ring in the end, which, spoiler alert, they obviously end up getting married, which I'm so glad they were able to do that. But, yeah, he said that this ring that she initially picked out was like 40 bucks or something. But it meant the world to her, Truly, to her, it ended up being one of the most valuable things she owned. And, yeah, their relationship moved very quickly. He did buy her her engagement ring not too long after that. Not right away, but you know what I mean. She graduated high in 2004, and by August of 2005, they got married at First United Methodist Church in Punta Gorda, Florida. And they went on to have two beautiful boys who were very close in age. I think they were about a year apart. And they just brought them endless joy. And Denise even decided to delay going to college, that she could focus on raising them. And from what I've been able to learn about her, being a mother was Denise's calling. And I think delaying some of her own dreams for them really speaks to that. And even in the end of her her life, Denise did everything in her power to keep those boys safe. And that also says everything that you need to know about her. So let's talk about what happened. It was Thursday, January 17, 2008, and that day really couldn't have started off more normal. Nathan left the house early that morning to go to work. And that day he was working his job as a meter reader with a Florida power company. And just sort of a side note, because Denise was now home with the kids, Nathan was working three jobs jobs to help make ends meet. And money was definitely tighter for them, but they really were able to make it work. And Nathan was willing to do anything he could to support his family. And they had actually just moved into a new rental house in North Port, Florida. And the home was basically new, but it was more affordable since it was in a more secluded area. In fact, Denise's father didn't really like the idea of them being out where they lived. But, you know, it worked for them, and so that's where they lived. Ah, you guys hear that? That's the sound of a healthy soda. Oh, my goodness. Am I so excited to talk about today's sponsor, because this is a brand that I truly love, that I truly stand behind that I've been using for a very long time, and it's called Olipop. Now, you may not know this about me, but I love sodies. I love sodies. But since I've been on my health journey, I can't have the regular sodas anymore. And I especially love cola. Oh, there's just something about that classic taste that really does it for me. But I can't have it anymore now that I'm on this health journey. So instead, I have found Olipop and it's been able to curb my soda cravings, but also give me so much more, because it's a new kind of soda that combines that classic soda taste, but with benefits of a functional ingredient blend to support digestive health. Olipop is reimagining soda with high fiber and only 2 to 5 grams of sugar per can. Olipop is sold online and also available in almost 50,000 retailers nationwide. Did you know that 90% of Americans consume more than the USDA's daily recommended added sugar intake, which is 30 grams? Sweetened beverages like soda are the leading source of added sugars in the American diet. But Olipop is much, much lower in sugar than conventional sodas, with only 2 to 5 grams of sugar from natural sources and no added sugar whatsoever. Their vintage Cola has just 2 grams of sugar compared to a regular can of Coca Cola, which has nine grams of sugar. I mean, whoa, that just can't be beat. And, guys, you can get a free can of Olipop. Just buy any two cans of Ollipop in store and they'll pay you back for one. It works on any flavor, any retailer. All you got to do to make that happen is go to drinkolipop.com TCKR Olipop is sold online@drinkolipop.com and on Amazon, and it's available, like I said, at almost 50,000 retailers nationwide, including Costco, Walmart, Target, Publix, Whole Foods, Kroger and H E B. That day, Nathan got up for work and because he usually left before Denise woke up, he said he never normally would kiss her goodbye because he didn't want to wake her up. I mean, as a mother of two, under two, two years old and a six month old, which I cannot imagine, shout out to anyone doing that, that sounds incredibly difficult, I can't imagine. But I'm sure Denise appreciated any extra sleep she could get. But looking back, this breaks my heart. He regrets not waking her up because that was the last morning that he got to see her. And they did luckily speak on the phone briefly at around 11am, but neither of them had any idea that that would be their last time speaking. But on that call, Denise had talked about giving the boys a haircut that day and Nathan talked about how they could save some money if she turned off the AC and opened the windows instead, which he reassured him that she had already done that. So a few Hours later, around 3pm, Nathan was done with work. And like always, which I thought was so cute, he called her on his way home because they would chat while he was driving home a lot of the time. And this time when he called her, he didn't get a response, which was very strange. Normally she would answer the phone, but of course, as a mother of two under two, there were times that she didn't. But he called her seven times and she didn't answer any of those calls. Which, yeah, he's thinking, okay, this is a little strange, but yeah, she does have the kids at home, maybe she's just busy right now. But then he pulls up to the house and he kind of gets this weird feeling because he could see that all of the windows were closed and her car was in the driveway. So he thought maybe she decided to put on the AC after all. And so he's weary, but he thinks there's probably an explanation for all of it. You know, your mind doesn't necessarily go to the worst in a situation like that. But the front door was even locked, so that was also a good sign to him. But then he walked into the house. First of all, Denise was nowhere to be found. And that was the first moment of, oh, yeah, something is really, really wrong here. And not to mention her purse, her keys, her phone were all still there. And then the biggest shock moment was when he saw that both of his sons were crying in the same crib, alone in soiled diapers. And like I said, Denise was a great mother. She would have never left her boys alone. And she just never actually left them in the same crib, let alone in soiled diapers. So he is panicking already. And then he noticed that all of the windows were shut, but they weren't completely shut. And it looked like someone had pulled them down in a hurry but didn't take the time to actually shut and latch them, which he said his wife absolutely would have done. And all of these things were red flags. But the biggest red flag was that the boys were alone and that they're crying and that she, I mean, it just didn't make any sense. So he immediately calls 911 to report her missing. And here's some of that.
- [13:32]
Dispatcher 1
Call Northport Emergency.
- [13:34]
Nathan Lee
Yes, I'm at. I just got home from work and my wife, I can't find her. My kids were in the house, and I don't know where she is. I've looked every single place, and I don't know.
- [13:46]
Dispatcher 1
Your kids are at home by themselves?
- [13:48]
Nathan Lee
Yes, I know. I don't know where her mommy is.
- [13:51]
Dispatcher 1
She's never done this before.
- [13:53]
Nathan Lee
No, no, no, no, no, no. I, I, I, I, I don't know. I mean, she. I've been home almost 10 minutes now. I haven't seen her.
- [14:04]
Dispatcher 1
All right, Nathan, I have an officer en route for you. If she does return home by the time we get their calls back, let us know, okay?
- [14:11]
Nathan Lee
Okay.
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Dispatcher 1
All right, thank you.
- [14:13]
Nathan Lee
Thank you.
- [14:13]
Kendall Ray
His next call was to Denise's dad, Rick, who we're going to be talking about a lot today. And Rick had actually been expecting a call from one of them because earlier wanted to come over for dinner with the boys that night. And so when Nathan's name came up on his phone, he assumed that that's what he was calling about. But once he answered, he realized that definitely wasn't why he was calling. And as soon as he heard what was going on, he agreed that something horrible must have happened. And so he, you know, immediately leaves his house and starts making his way over to theirs. And something that you should know is that Rick actually worked in law enforcement for 25 years. He worked as a sergeant at the neighboring county sheriff's office in Charlotte county. And Apparently a big part of his job included helping track down fugitives in criminal cases. So as you can imagine, Rick had a lot of knowledge when it came to missing persons, violent crime, and all of those sorts of things, which meant that he knew the first person law enforcement was going to look at was Nathan. But he was quick to stand behind him and basically say, hey, do not waste your time here. My son in law didn't do this. And I do believe that Rick was, was a big reason why law enforcement got involved to the degree they did, and you'll hear me explain it. But they really called in a lot of resources for this case. Although I will say there was a brief period where law enforcement appeared to be sort of dragging their feet. And I think that went on for like an hour or so before Rick was like, okay, you guys need to be doing something. You need to be out there searching for her, knocking on doors, do anything. But for whatever reason, at first there was this lag. And that being said, they did start to recognize the seriousness of the situation and ended up approaching this with this sort of she's one of our own mentality, I think because of Rick. And pretty soon they had the house and the road taped off and Denise's street was swarming with law enforcement. And at Rick's strong recommendation, they went to speak to neighbors, which ended up being incredibly helpful because they ended up speaking to this girl named Jennifer, who actually didn't live at the neighbor's house. She was just staying there with relatives. But she remembered seeing something weird that day. At about 2 or so in the afternoon, she was in the front room of the house just watching tv, and she noticed a car drive by on the street. But what was weird is he had driven by about four times, which is why it caught her attention. And at some point she watched the car pull into the Lee's driveway, and for whatever reason, she decided to step outside. And this is when she saw the driver of the car, who she described as a heavy, tall, tall white man driving a green Camaro. She even said that at one point he started staring at her. So she felt weird, probably felt unsafe and went inside. And she thinks that he may have been there for probably like 10 more minutes after that, but then he was gone. Although transparently, when she went inside, she sort of stopped paying attention and she didn't see what happened next. And that is so not her fault. I mean, she had no idea what was about to unfold or who this guy was. And in all honesty, she was very helpful to the case. I mean, she was able to provide a pretty good description to detectives because now they knew what type of car they needed to be on the lookout for. Plus, not to mention she also gave a pretty decent description of the driver. So all of that information was sent out to all law enforcement in the area and the search was on at that point.
- [17:47]
Dispatcher 2
Look for a light colored green Camaro too.
- [17:51]
Nathan Lee
Green Camaro we know approximate year older. Do a model and it's going to be actually a darker green Camaro and it's going to be probably the early 2000s, late 90s model.
- [18:02]
Kendall Ray
So between 5 and 6pm this became an all hands on deck effort. Local media picked up on the story, Federal authorities even got on board and everyone in the greater Northport area was searching for that green Camaro. Officers began monitoring all the highway entrances as well as conducting traffic stops and helicopters and canine units were even dispatched. And believe it or not, the next big lead in this case actually came from Denise herself. And I seriously couldn't believe it when I first heard. But at 6:14 that evening, a 911 call was received from none other than Denise Amber Lee. This incredible woman was able to somehow get a hold of her abductor's phone and called 911 herself. And I, I can't even describe how beyond words upsetting this call is. I'm not going to be playing it for you guys. It is deeply disturbing. I think it's one of the most disturbing things I have ever heard in my entire True Crime career. The audio from the call is available and I've obviously heard it for myself. It's not difficult to find, so if you really want to hear it, you can probably find it on your own. But I want to warn you, caution you majorly. It is deeply, deeply upsetting to hear and I felt truly, truly disturbed. I mean Denise is quite literally just, just pleading for her life and it's very clear she's in extreme distress. And so out of respect for her and especially for her kids, I've decided against playing the audio. I know that her husband and her parents have had to listen to it just to identify her voice. But as her kids are getting older now, I would hate for them to hear that at all, let alone from my show. So I'm just not going to be playing it. But I will describe it to you to some degree because the context is super important to understanding this case. In the beginning of the call, Denise can be heard literally begging for her life. Like I said, she asks her abductor multiple times to please let her go. And she even says that she's sorry. And you can simultaneously hear the 911 operator repeatedly saying hello, as if she's trying to, you know, figure out what's going on. And essentially, throughout the call, the oper ask Denise questions like, what's your name? Do you know where you are? Where do you live? Now, unfortunately, the radio was playing really loud in the background, so it's definitely muffled and hard to hear at times. But what is so impressive about what Denise was able to do is that she knew she couldn't let her attack her, catch on to the fact that she had his phone and was speaking to 91 1. So when the operator would ask her a question, she would find a way to answer it so that her attacker would think that she was talking with him. As an example, when the operator would ask, where do you live? Denise would respond with, please take me home. I live at xyz. So that they knew where her house was. And here's another example. The operator would ask, do you know where you are? Are you blindfolded? And Denise would say, I can't see. Where are we? She even managed to tell the operator her full name and that she had a husband and kids. And, God, that part in particular is just so gut wrenching because she's just talking about how she would do anything to see them again. And it's horrific, you guys. But what is so astounding and inspiring about this moment is that she had the foresight to do all of this and even think clearly in that moment. And she did a lot of other things that we'll go over as well. But the fact that she was able to keep the operator on the phone for almost six minutes is just incredible. And then towards the end of the call, you can hear her abductor is figuring out that he has lost his phone. He's trying to figure out where it is. And Denise says that she doesn't have it. She even says that she'll help him look for it. But then it eventually cut out. And I'm not sure if he finally realized that she had it or if she just. Just felt like it was becoming too close of a call. So she hung up. Yeah. Not sure there how it ended, but yeah, to add to the pain of all of it, as I mentioned, her dad had to listen to that audio to identify her voice. And, you know, I listened to it as someone who didn't know Denise. I cannot imagine listening to my child in that state. It is. It is seriously one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life. And what's even more heartbreaking about this call is it actually gave them hope. Hope because this was proof that she was still alive. In fact, when her mom found out that her daughter had called, she thought it would only be a matter of minutes before they got a call back saying that Denise was found. You know, the hope being that they would be able to pinpoint her location and recover the vehicle with her inside. But unfortunately, that wasn't the case because the phone ended up being a burner phone. And obviously that doesn't have the same type of GPS tracking that a regular cell phone does. So all they could really gather from the call, the general location from the tower that it had pinged off of. And again, unfortunately, that information didn't end up being that helpful. However, they were able to trace the number back to the person who bought the phone, which obviously ended up being very, very helpful. And that's when they found out that it went back to or was traced back to a man named Michael King. And of course, they asked her family if they knew of a Michael King. And what was bizarre is nobody in their family had heard of him.
- [23:48]
Nathan Lee
Him.
- [23:48]
Kendall Ray
He was a total stranger. Even the detectives were kind of scratching their heads a bit because when they looked him up in the system, he didn't have much more than a parking violation. But they certainly didn't have the luxury of taking their time to figure out the connection, at least not then and there, because they desperately needed to find her. I mean, every second counted. And like I've said, they were searching high and low. And believe it or not, it was actually only a couple minutes later that they caught their second big break. And it was at 6:24pm A second 911 call was made. And the details shocked everyone. I'm about to play it for you, but just for some context going into it, the caller is a girl who was reporting what she said her dad, Harold saw. I know it's a little confusing. It'll make more sense when I explain in a second. What's the problem?
- [24:38]
Dispatcher 1
I just got a call from my dad, and his cousin came over his house with a girl in the car, and she was tied up. And the girl came out of the. Like, got out of the car, and, like, my dad's cousin went and put her back in the car, and when she got out.
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Jane
Okay, where's your.
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Dispatcher 1
Where's your dad's house? It's in Northport. Do you know the address of it. He wants to be anonymous. His cousin left. Okay, what's the cousin driving? A green Camaro.
- [25:04]
Kendall Ray
Where would he be going with this female?
- [25:06]
Dispatcher 1
He came over to my dad's house, borrowed a shovel, a gas tank, and something else. All right, what's. What's the cousin's name? His name is Gary King. King. Gary King? Yeah. Oh, it's not Gary King. It's Mikey King. Michael King. Yeah. Okay.
- [25:23]
Kendall Ray
Now, even though this call was upsetting to hear, it was very, very important because it pretty much confirmed that Michael King was their guy. And it doesn't make sense to explain this in the timeline right now, but I will give you some more context as far as the details of what happened with her dad, but we're just not quite there yet. But anyways, this call was a shock to literally everyone. And keep in mind the timing of everything was happen very, very quickly. I mean, Denise's call was at 6:14. And then Sabrina's call.
- [25:52]
Dispatcher 1
Who?
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Kendall Ray
Sabrina is Harold's daughter, if I didn't already say that was at 6:24. So only 10 minutes apart. And then at 6:30 there was a third call. And this is where the case gets infuriating. If you aren't already infuriated at this point, just buckle the up, cuz it just gets. There are no words.
- [26:18]
Harold
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- [26:40]
Advertiser 1
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- [26:51]
Kendall Ray
So this call, let me explain. Comes from a woman named Jane. And we love Jane. I wish there was a Jane in every single case. She did everything right. And yeah, the world would be a better place with more Janes among us. But anyway, that evening, Jane was driving south on Highway 41, and just before 6:30pm she had come to a stop at a light. Light. Totally normal. Right? Well, while she's sitting at this light, she thought she heard someone scream. And it wasn't an innocent, playful kind of scream. It was a help me kind of scream. Instant urgency. And so she turns over and looks at the car next to her and she's pulled up next to who we now know is Michael King. He was in his green Camaro. And the two of them even made eye contact, which is so eerie to think about. But anyways, she calls 91 1. She is actually the embodiment of if you see something, say something. And she tells the operator that she thinks she's witnessing a child abduction. Now, I'm going to play a portion of her 911 call. I don't have the full thing actually, but you'll hear that she gets a few details technically wrong. But I mean, whatever, it's not her fault. She was doing her best. The sun was setting and she was describing everything the best that she could. But more or less she described what she thinks is a kid being abducted. And when the light turns green, she does everything she can to stick close to the car, which is very, very brave. But the issue here was that Michael realized that she realized what was going on. And so he slowed down and managed to get his car behind hers. And then eventually he's able to turn off the highway at a time where she just doesn't get the chance to follow him. Listen to this.
- [28:39]
Jane
And I was at a stoplight and a man pulled up next to me and there was a child screaming in the car. What kind of vehicle is he in? It's a blue Camaro. Like Camaro, like in the 90s or early 2000s or something. Okay, it was a baby or. No, it was a child. You know what? It's dark and I. And I turn to look at him, and he's a white male, sort of light colored hair, sort of plump. He's behind me now. And I tried to slow down so he could pass me and I could read his license plate. Ma' am, don't hang up, okay? I'm not. And there's a kid in the back seat. And they kept banging on the window. And it was banging on the window and screaming and crying and screaming. Like, screaming, screaming, screaming. And not a happy scream, like, get me out of here. Hear scream. Okay, now it's green. And they're in the arrow. Green arrows. And he's going now turning left on Toledo Blade. Yeah, do you want me to. Do you want me to turn, try to follow him or. Okay, does he want her to follow him? Okay, can you turn? Oh, oh, he just turned on Toledo Bright. I don't know if I can catch up. There's a bunch of traffic and I can't get over.
- [29:55]
Kendall Ray
So I think we can all agree here. Jane did everything right. She stayed on the phone with the operator. She provided as much description as she possibly could, tried to figure out what was going on, and was brave enough to try and stick by Michael as long as she possibly Could. Now, the operator, on the other hand, completely this up, like, beyond. I just. It's hard to even wrap your mind around how something like this could happen. And when you hear the details, I think you're gonna be as pissed off as me, so. So when Jane had made that 911 call, she had crossed the county line, which means that her call was routed to a call center in Charlotte. But it was the Northport Police Department who were heading up this investigation. That being said, though, and I cannot stress this enough, everyone knew by this point that Denise was missing. They had put out a BOLO to all of the neighboring counties. And the operator did know that there was an active abduction underway. She had that information. She actually knew during the call that Jane was likely talk. Talking about Michael and Denise. You could even hear the operator talking to other people in the room. So she had gotten others in the call center involved. And the issue was that the information never was relayed to anyone outside of the call center, which just. Oh, my God. Blew my mind, I guess, to my understanding, which I still. I don't know. I have trouble understanding how this happened at all. But she had been verbally telling other dispatchers the information, I guess, thinking that they would log it into the system to reach the deputies. But one dispatcher later said that her radio was broken, which, by the way, ended up not even being true. And the rest of them just said they assumed someone else had done it. God, you guys. So if you're not fully grasping the gravity of this up, this means multiple people knew in real time that they had an eyewitness on this abduction. And that information was never actually given to those who were searching for her, mind you. And this makes it so much worse, the street that Michael had pulled off of is called Toledo Blade. And there was a deputy parked right there. Right there. Not to mention there were a handful of deputies within a very, very short radius. And something else that just needs to be said is that with or without this information, those deputies already knew that they were supp to be on the lookout for a green 90s model Camaro. So they also just flat out missed it. But can you imagine if they were told that the Camaro was right there? They would have been that much more locked in. And I'll circle back to this later on, but it is possible. I'll even say it might even be likely that had they known, Denise would still be here today if that information actually made it to them, who knows? But anyway, before we get into more of a conversation on that let's get back to the timeline here. So after that, about 20 minutes later, there ended up being a fourth 911 call. And I guess technically it could be the fifth if you count Nathan's original call. And this call came from Sabrina's dad. If you remember, Sabrina had called earlier talking about her dad. Her dad's name is Harold, if you need a reminder. And apparently he had a change of heart. So let's listen.
- [33:26]
Nathan Lee
I'm not sure exactly what the emergency is exactly, but I think there's somebody that's been taken without the. Don't want to be where they need to be.
- [33:35]
Dispatcher 1
Huh.
- [33:35]
Nathan Lee
And they're in a 95 green Camaro from Northport somewhere.
- [33:39]
Dispatcher 1
Okay, and how do you know this?
- [33:41]
Nathan Lee
I know.
- [33:44]
Dispatcher 1
Do you know where they are?
- [33:45]
Nathan Lee
I have no idea.
- [33:47]
Dispatcher 1
And who did they take?
- [33:48]
Nathan Lee
Some girl. Some girl taken anonymous. And she didn't want to. I don't think she wanted to be where she wanted to be.
- [33:53]
Dispatcher 1
Did you know the guy is.
- [33:55]
Nathan Lee
No.
- [33:56]
Dispatcher 1
Anything else you can tell me?
- [33:57]
Nathan Lee
Nope.
- [33:58]
Dispatcher 1
And let me let you go. Can you give me anything else?
- [34:03]
Nathan Lee
No, I will.
- [34:05]
Dispatcher 1
Okay. Can I get your name and number? Okay.
- [34:10]
Kendall Ray
Insane. Insane. Now, that was just part of the call. I couldn't get the whole thing, but obviously that rubs me the wrong way. And I'm sure you guys agree with me there. I mean, what's the point of being so cryptic, you know? Like, they did luckily connect the dots that it was Harold calling about Michael, but I feel like he was only trying to clear his conscience more than anything else. There was one new piece of information that he shared, though, and it was definitely helpful, so I'll give him that. He said the Camaro had a black bra on the front, which is basically a protective cover on the front of a hood area. I'm sure a lot of you know what a bra is, but this tip definitely helped them to clarify, like, you know, even more. So what they needed to be on the lookout for. Now, after this call, and I'm sure this is obvious to most of you, but obviously after hearing everything he had to say, they needed to pay him a visit and hear what happened firsthand. And his story is absolutely insane. So Harold said that between 5:30 and 6, he was home when his cousin Michael stopped by. And apparently Michael had concocted this story about how his lawnmower was stuck in ditch, so he needed to borrow a shovel and a gas can and a flashlight to get it out. Now, Harold at the same time says that he was unaware that there was a missing woman just A few miles down the street. So he didn't think twice about it. He even said that he stood and chatted for a few minutes to catch up with Michael before he started to leave, who, by the way, to him, was acting totally normal. But this is when he saw what you heard his daughter Sabrina say earlier, that there was a woman tied up in his car and that he saw her get out, and then he saw Michael push her back in. And what you didn't hear Sabrina say, which investigators learned, was that Denise was yelling, call the cops. And Michael turned to him and said, don't worry about it. Now, sources sort of vary on if Harold saw her actually get outside of the car. Some say that she did get out. Others say that he only caught a glimpse of her inside the car because the windows were tinted. But to me, me, at the end of the day, the distinction is irrelevant, really. I mean, what's important here is the fact that he witnessed a woman clearly begging for help, and he did nothing about it. He did go on to say some useless about how he thought this woman was one of Michael's, quote, psycho girlfriends. So he figured it was a domestic dispute, which I don't see how that makes it any better. If someone is yelling, call the cops. Or seem to seems, depending on what actually happens, clearly seems in extreme distress and is begging you for help, you call the cops. I mean, it's just. Oh, man, you guys, this one makes me so mad in so many ways. And to make it worse, I guess he started to feel like the situation wasn't right, so he drove to Michael's house to see if there really was an issue with his stupid lawnmower. But Michael wasn't home. So at that point, Harold clearly knew he'd been lying, and he still didn't call the cops then and there. He called his daughter, and thankfully, she called. And then, of course, the. The guilt must have got to him to some degree, because he did end up making that anonymous call. But you're too late, dude. And I'm sure that Harold lives with this guilt now. I mean, I hope he does. But you had the chance to possibly save Denise's life, and you didn't. You just chose not to. Didn't want to get involved, Took the easy way out and just waited too long to do anything, and then made a bogus anonymous call. I mean, that's just so unhelpful in a situation like that, right? Like, if you actually cared and were concerned, you would have given every ounce of information you could and identified yourself, but you're too much of a little bitch to have done that. And so as far as I'm concerned, I hope you live with that guilt the rest of your life. And that's a battle that you chose to face.
- [38:12]
Harold
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- [38:34]
Advertiser 1
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- [38:45]
Kendall Ray
But anyways, with all this in mind, now, obviously detectives have no doubt that it's Michael they have to find. And one place they hope they could find him was his house, which is where they went next.
- [38:57]
Dispatcher 2
Yeah, there is a TV on in the house and sounds like voices inside the residence. Have you got the vehicle there? Well, it could be in the garage. There's a. There's a car garage and then a single car. Single car garage that's next to it. And there's no window, so I can't tell. But it does sound like there's voices on in the house. The neighbor directly next to him advises she believes he's possibly home and does park his car in the garage. He does still drive the Camaro and does still reside in Sardinia. And his into her knowledge, he is home.
- [39:28]
Kendall Ray
So with that, detectives just honestly busted right in. And the thing was, is the house was empty. And I'm not talking in terms of people or like, barely decorated. I mean, his house was. House was literally empty. It looked like no one was living there. There was, like a few miscellaneous furniture items, but it didn't. Yeah, it didn't look like anyone was actually living there. Any noises they heard coming from inside were from the TV and radio, both of which had been turned up to a super high volume. However, they did find something horrific, something that made them believe Denise had been there. They found duct tape in two areas of the house, the kitchen and the primary bedroom, both of which had long brown hairs attached to them. They also found a Winnie the blanket and a pillow on the ground in the primary bedroom, as if it was where someone had been sleeping. But when they noticed there was a towel covering the window on top of everything else they saw, they ultimately believed that Michael could have taken Denise there to sexually assault her. So they went ahead and collected everything they found and even ripped up parts of the carpet, which looked like it had blood on it so that they could send it out for DNA processing. And this is very disturbing, and I don't think it'll come as a surprise to any of you at this point, but the results proved exactly that. It was Denise's hair on the duct tape and his semen was found on the blanket. Now, of course, they didn't know that on the spot, but they did know that they had to find her and that the clock was ticking. So for the next two and a half hours, the search efforts were at their absolute max. And like I said, they had helicopters and canine teams as well as officers performing traffic stops at every exit in Northport. Finding Denise and Michael was the only option. And at 9:16pm they found one of the two of them. A highway patrol officer on Toledo Blade Boulevard spotted his green Camaro trying to leave the city. And that's when they ultimately made the arrest. And of course, they were hoping to find Denise with him. And when they saw he was alone, reality really sunk in. And even when her dad heard that Michael was found alone, he. He understood what that probably meant. And it didn't help those thoughts that the bottom of his pants were wet and his boots were covered in mud, suggesting that he might have come from burying her. They also found the shovel, the flashlight and the gas can, as well as that burner phone, which had the battery and SIM card removed. So all signs here are pointing to something that nobody wanted to happen. And when they took him to the station for questioning, shocker. He lawyered up and refused to talk. Here's what's interesting, though. End up bringing Harold to the station to talk to him more. And at some point, they end up putting the two men in a room together. And that's when Michael starts rambling like an idiot on and on with this wild story about what he says happened, which is basically that he was the one who got kidnapped. And it's so strange. I'm just going to play the clip for you so you can hear it yourself.
- [42:35]
Nathan Lee
Young man. Hiding. I got told I couldn't. I tried to put 911 on the phone, everything. So I called T F? Cking. Wouldn't say nothing. Said he killed, you know, crazy. I couldn't do anything. If I said anything, then he would have took everybody out. And I didn't have anything in my garage or anything. He was pissed off. What would I do? Put everybody else in harm? Who was it? I would go back. Somebody in the street seen it and somebody called. Next thing you know, cops at my house. Like what the fuck? What am I supposed to do, you know? No, no, he doesn't really say. I don't, you know, I didn't know how to say it to you without free to call without him knowing. Somebody else in the car you want? Yeah. And he has me. And the only reason I had it had have his phone. Huh? You know, the phone and he hear everything. If it's once mistake, I'll tell him that's it. All of them.
- [43:37]
Kendall Ray
My God, I don't know how he thought anyone was going to believe that, but yeah, nobody was buying it, as you can imagine. And he was even asked to take the police to the place where this so called abductor took them. But when police went there, they found nothing, of course. So yeah, Michael was next to, to no help when it came to locating Denise, of course, and that wasn't much of a shock, but he naturally gets charged with kidnapping. And meanwhile there was another team of people forensically examining his car. They wanted to know if they could find anything that would point to where Denise was. And you just can't help but to get chills, full body chills when you hear what they found. Remember earlier when I talked about that little silver ring that Nathan had bought her for Valentine's Day and how it was, was really her most valuable possession? Well, they found it in the back seat of his car and Nathan even came into the station to identify it and he said that he was 100% certain that it was hers. He broke down in tears when he saw it and he believes that she left it there on purpose. And it seems most people believe that. I certainly believe that. I think she knew what she was doing, that she was trying to give as many clues as she could, could to what had happened to her. So eerie to think about the fact that she in those moments was trying to leave clues for her own murder case. And you know, she knew that Nathan would know it was hers and oh my God, the footage of him identifying it, oh my God, it just destroyed me. I just. HEAVY SOBBING Seeing he looks, I cannot imagine what was going through his head. Seeing that ring, probably holding out hope that it wasn't hers. And when he saw it, it took, it took him seconds to know that, yes, that is hers. And oh, it's like one of the worst things I've ever seen.
- [45:36]
Nathan Lee
Is this her ring?
- [45:40]
Dispatcher 1
Yes. This first ring I gave her first ring Valentine's Day.
- [45:45]
Nathan Lee
How confident are you that serving 100%.
- [45:48]
Kendall Ray
And this is also just so horrible but also so impressive on Denise's part, but they found chunks of her hair that had been ripped from the root. Like she knew that they were going to need that. And so she. They believe that she did that on purpose. And think about it, with her dad in law enforcement, for as long as he was, she would have known that they needed a full strand of hair from the root to make the best identification. I'm just so impressed by Denise. She was such an incredible person. To be in the midst of all of that and be thinking that sharply. I mean, she was thinking like an officer, she was thinking like an investigator. She did everything that she could to help them to build a case against him. If she didn't survive, which I'm sure at some point she knew she probably wasn't going to. But of course, we can't forget that these findings at the end of the day pointed to a really horrific reality, that Denise was no longer alive. And that of course, meant that these search teams needed to pick it up if there was any chance of finding her. And of course, they're still hanging on to hope at this point. So searches were at an all time high that night and all through the next day. And finally, on the Evening of the 18th, the awful discovery was made. Deep in a marshy area near Plantation Boulevard in Northport, an area of disturbed earth was found. And near it there were two piles of sand which appeared to be covering what looked like blood. And after excavating the area, the following morning, Denise's body was recovered from a grave. Grave. He had dug it deep enough that the cool earth had preserved her remains. And a gunshot wound was visible on her head, which was later confirmed to be her cause of death. She also had more than 20 internal and external bruises, as well as other injuries to suggest that she was met with additional violence, including sexually. And then a few hundred yards away, they found a pair of boxers which were actually Nathan's. And Denise was known to wear them. And those tested positive for Michael's sperm. And additional forensic testing also confirmed traces of her blood on the hood of his car and in the back seat of his car. But what's interesting though, is they never actually found the murder weapon, even to this day, which I thought was pretty surprising. But, yeah, those details are. I mean, it's just hard to even put into words how horrific it was. And obviously it wasn't an outcome that any of them were expecting or hoping for. And in the days that followed, the grief was unmistakable. I mean, everyone was mourning this loss to a massive degree. And I think her Funeral really speaks to how big of an impact her death had on this community. Law enforcement held a huge procession, and people showed up in the hundreds to show their support. And when Nathan spoke, he was. It's heartbreaking at times, deeply upset, obviously. But then at other moments, it sounded like he sort of brightened up a little bit as he spoke about the woman he loved so dearly. And I'm sure so many memories were flooding his mind. He even talked about their first date at Applebee's, where Denise wouldn't eat, so she just sat and watched him eat for 45 minutes, which I thought was kind of fun. And he also talked about the passion she had when it came to being a mom. He remembered how often she would be at the dinner table feeding both of their sons while trying to sneak in a bite of food for herself. And that brings me to. I think the part about this case that just destroys me the most is that she had always put her boys first. And that was true until the very end. And I just cannot imagine being sorry. I try not to break down in these episodes too much because I don't want to make it about me. But, I mean, how can you not, as a mother, thinking about in that situation, putting my baby. My babies in a crib, hoping that they were going to be okay, and just leaving them, not knowing if you'd ever see them again, leaving them alone in a house was just such a nightmare for any mother. And I just. It's so sad to think about what the final moments of her life were like, especially that that was the last time that she'd ever see them and the last time that they would ever see her. And for them to have to have these thoughts of what their last moments with their mom were, it's just sick. It is so sick. And for what? Her family also took part in a press conference where they not only thanked the community as well as law enforcement, but they also recognized Denise for the hero that she was. Her quick thinking helped them identify Micha as her killer. And it's just beyond words, incredible, everything that she did in an attempt to be found. And thankfully, Michael received two new charges, one for murder, of course, and another for sexually assaulting her. But honestly, yeah, what most people wanted to know at this point was why. Why Denise? And the answer is, honestly that this was random. Investigators theorized that Michael must have been, you know, know, just looking around, basically hunting for someone to abduct, and Denise just happened to be that person, and they think that she was outside on her back Porch, cutting her son's hair when Michael drove by and saw her. And that's when they think that he decided that she was, for whatever reason, going to be his target. And it's hard to say exactly how he got her to go with him, but knowing her cause of death, it, you know, seems obvious that he probably held her at gunpoint. And like I said earlier, earlier, in one of her last moments of bravery, she decided to put the boys together in the same crib and probably convinced him to only take her and had to just leave them there. And if you remember, the front door had also been locked. So they believed Denise locked it as he was making her leave the house, which is just another way that she was trying to protect them. And the windows too. Think about that. They think that she may have closed them in order to keep the boys from getting out if they were somehow able to get out of their crib. But I mean, either that or Michael closed them so that people wouldn't hear her scream. So not exactly sure what happened with the windows, but from there, they think he took her to his house where the assault took place. And then afterwards is when they think that she took his phone to make that call. From there, it's likely that he went right to Harold's house and borrowed all those items. And then we know what happened next. And another thing that really shocked people, people, which I did mention earlier, is that Michael didn't have a criminal record, although I'd argue he probably should have had one, because I guess some neighbors had come forward after all of this had happened to say that they had had tons of issues with this dude. Apparently one time he keyed his neighbor's car, slashed their tires, and poured battery acid on their pool cage. Another person came forward saying that he sexually assaulted her. And I guess he was also known as a peeping tom, which isn't shocking. I mean, just look at this guy. He's peeping Tom written all over him. And there was one woman who said that he had come into her salon with a 15 year old girl and started making out with her and then was bragging to people there about how he met her online. So, I mean, this guy is just a nasty pig, pervert, freak. I mean, I can't even think of enough. Every horrible word word in the dictionary is Michael.
- [53:21]
Harold
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- [53:42]
Advertiser 1
Visit your nearby Lowe's on Colorado street in Kennewick.
- [53:53]
Kendall Ray
And they also learned that this rat was struggling financially, like, really badly. So he had been living in Michigan with his wife and their kids, but in 2002, he had moved to Florida after she left him for another man, pretty much out of the blue. And I can't say I blame her for that one. And in Florida, I guess he worked as a plumber. But eventually he just stopped showing up to work and was known as a pathological liar. And so, long story short, his house was about to be foreclosed on and he was, I guess, running out of options. I guess his friends and family were super shocked to hear about his arrest and what happened because they didn't think he was capable of doing something like this. But I did read that you if the months leading up to this, he had become real paranoid and just wasn't acting like himself. And there's this whole story about how he got into a sledding accident as a kid which resulted in a traumatic brain injury. And that's sort of. I don't even know why people are trying to do this, but some people, you know, have tried to use this as an excuse for his behavior, but sounds like he was able to live a pretty normal life before all of this. And there's more that I could get into about his life story, but I really don't care to. I don't want to waste any more time than I have to talking about Michael. I don't give a about him. What I do give a about is justice for Denise. And luckily they were on their way to getting that. However, before justice was served, there was one more major finding. Now, remember earlier when we talked about Jane's call and how they legitimately didn't know about it? Well, what I didn't tell you was how they learned it existed. After Michael was arrested and Denise was recovered, it was obviously all over the news. And Jane ended up seeing it and she called the North Port Police Department to basically say, like, hey, I was that 911 caller. Let me know if you need any follow up information. And they were like, you're who now? Like, they had no idea. And she had to explain that she had made an eyewitness report with critical real time information about the abduction. I won't repeat everything I said earlier, but this was a huge failure on behalf of the Charlotte County Sheriff's office, mind you, that was the department that Denise's dad worked for. So when he learned about this, his response was, we blew it. And he said that he has struggled for years, that this mistake was made by the very police department that he worked for. And I cannot imagine how that would feel as a father after dedicating 25 years of your life to this department, department, and to law enforcement in general, to have such a major mistake play out from your own department when it comes to your daughter that could have potentially saved her life. And I'm positive that those dispatchers have had to live with that guilt forever. And I'm sure that's been really difficult for them. I hope it's been difficult for them. I think it should be. It's just such a major mistake. It costs someone's life. Those kind of mistakes just cannot happen. And it can't just be like an oops, we'll try harder next time. You know, it's just. It's not like that. And if I'm being honest, in my opinion, the repercussions for this weren't that high. Four employees were ordered to do remedial training and had brief, very brief suspensions. But that was really it. It wasn't a suitable response, in my opinion, for possibly costing Denise her life. And Denise's loved ones definitely felt the same. But as for the true villain here, Michael, the justice system definitely had its way with him. Obvious evidence against him was way too strong to deny, although the defense definitely gave it their all. I feel dumb even sharing what their defense was because it's so ridiculous. I guess they had to come up with something, but it turns out that he had gone to a shooting range that morning with some friend. So the defense. I shouldn't laugh, it's just. It's so ridiculous. The defense tried to say that it was his friend that killed Denise, and the friend actually had an alibi. So that argument held up as well as a cooked noodle, I guess you could say. It just. Just ridiculous, Honestly, to me, it's like, offensive that they even tried that. But in the end, I'm very happy to say that Michael ended up being convicted of kidnapping, sexual battery, and first degree murder. And at the strong recommendation of prosecutors, he was ultimately sentenced to death. Now, I know people feel differently about the death penalty. It's something that I. I don't know, I have different feelings on. It's not a conversation for any of us, really, because this was something that her family was absolutely in support of and to Me. That's all that matters. Plus, I feel in so many of the cases I cover, people get really, really weak sentences, and it just pisses me off beyond. So, to me, I'm very happy with this outcome. Granted, no punishment obviously will ever bring Denise back, and therefore, it's still even. The death penalty is still never enough. And you know what's ridiculous, too, is there was some strong debate in the penalty phase over whether or not he was competent enough to receive the death penalty because the dude didn't have the highest iq. Shocker. But, yeah, the judge. Judge was like, no, you might be kind of a dummy, but you're smart enough to know what you did was wrong. You knew what you were doing. So, bye, bye, you're done. And of course, as they always do, Michael has attempted to overturn his conviction. But so far, he hasn't been successful, and I doubt he ever will be. But as I wrap this up, since this has been such, such a brutal case, I wanted to try and end it on a more positive note. It's actually not too hard to do that because some incredible things have come out of Denise's story. I'm very happy to share. Denise's murder has actually sparked some real change. And I'm not kidding, you guys. What their family has been able to do is unbelievable. It's so inspiring. And it's honestly why I chose to cover this case to begin with. Because when I started looking into the details, I was like, dude, I don't know if I can even talk about this. It's so upsetting. But it was also really inspiring to me, and I felt like it's something. Her story is something that, like I said in the beginning, more people should know about, especially people in dispatch and in law enforcement. So listen to this. In June of 2008, just a few months after this all happened, Nathan founded the Denise Amberly Foundation. And the basis of this foundation is rooted in the failure of that 911 operator with the goal to improve the 911 system across the nation so that what happened to Denise doesn't happen to anyone else ever again. Nathan created it as a way to help work through his grief. And the work that he's been able to do is incredible, you guys. When he learned about this massive failure in his wife's case, he started looking at the 911 system as a whole. And he found out a lot of facts, including the fact that this is not even a nationwide system. It's more of a patchwork of agencies that all have varying Protocols and standards for what it takes to be qualified to do the job. Which now in 2025 might not be super shocking to us as we are learning much more about all of our systems these days. I think at least I have been like pretty shocked looking into how systems across all different areas of our government and country work. I mean, just hearing about America, but all over the world as well. But in 2008, this was pretty shocking. And the further he dug in, the more surprised he became. He found out, you guys, that some states don't require any mandated training for people to become 911 operators, and other states hardly measured what it takes to be successful at it. Hence the foundation where Nathan's full time career is now dedicated to touring the country to educate about the importance of training, protocols, standards, all of that. He's also sharing his wife's story to inspire people to approach this line of work best foot forward every single day. They offer in person and online training, which provides in depth education on topics like leadership hiring, training and encouraging employees in a communication center. You can even go on their website and see what events they have coming up. But there's a ton and they're all over the country. And here's something shocking. Before the foundation, only 24 states required mandatory training for operators. And now it's at least up to 36. But that means we still have a long way to go, don't we? Because you would hope that it would be mandatory in all 50 states. Right? And that could be an outdated fact, but I believe it's from 2024. So I'm quite confident we are not at all 50 states. And so this foundation is incredibly important in making huge strides. And another thing that really blew my mind, but also, I don't know, kind of didn't after some of the cases I've covered over the years. But most law enforcement agencies don't have quality control standards in place for accountability and safety. So the foundation created their own quality assurance team with 28 experts. And they will go and listen to the audio from 911 calls, then grade each department on how they did. And then these departments can use that score to either receive a certificate that says they're doing a good job, or they can use it to learn where they need to improve. So that part of the foundation is just so valuable. And Nathan and I think all of us want people to feel confident when they call 91 1, whether you're in New York, you're in California, Colorado, let's say Oklahoma, even you want to Be able to get the best help that you can possibly get. Honestly, this case is just really eye opening. I mean, we all want to assume that when we call 91 1, you're getting the best help possible. But in this case and so many other cases like it, we just know that that's not always the reality. Now, I do want to be very clear here that there are some incredible, like, angel on earth type of people that are in dispatch who are so on top of things, so dedicated to it, have saved lives. There are countless cases of that as well. In fact, it was just, I think last weekend that I met a fan who had been in Dispatch for 25 years, and she was telling me a little bit about it. We didn't get to talk too long, but she seemed awesome. And I don't want any of you out there who work in dispatch to feel discouraged or picked on because I know a lot of you are doing incredible work. But it's so important that we constantly improve our systems. And, you know, that starts at the top level. So I'm really grateful for people like Nathan who have made it their life's work, work to better the systems for everyone else. And I love that he does that in Denise's honor. In fact, what's really, really cool is he and Rick actually managed to get a bill passed. And the process was actually started before the foundation was officially launched. But the themes really overlap. In April of 2008, Nathan and Rick worked with Florida legislators to advocate for a new bill that would establish statewide standards for the certification of 911 emergency dispatchers. It's called the Denise Amber Lee act, and it passed unanimously. And just like the their goal is to make people feel confident when calling 911 again. They want to ensure that people who work these jobs are properly trained and qualified and supported. At the end of the day, the kind of person it takes to do this job effectively naturally means that they have to have this drive to want to help others. And I think most people that get into dispatch have that. But Nathan and Rick want to make sure that everybody, everyone that works in dispatch has that, you know, in them. So with this act, the state of Florida now requires 232 hours of training for 911 operators, which is a super incredible accomplishment that they should be very, very proud of. And honestly, I only really skimmed the surface of the impact that's being made. So if you're interested in learning more, I am going to put a link to the foundation in the show notes of this episode. And I Also want to mention that I just been obviously so inspired and moved by this case as a whole that I'm going to be making a donation to the foundation on behalf of this show and all of you. And I also wanted to mention one last thing before wrapping up this episode, and that's that Nathan won a big lawsuit against the Charlotte County Sheriff's office in 2012. He sued for wrongful death and negligence, and the case even went to trial. But a few days in, they reached a $1.25 million settlement. The funds were split up for legal fees, money for his kids and his family, but there was also a portion that made it to foundation. And he made it clear, though, that this was never about the money. Of course, it was about Denise. And I think he's done such an amazing job of keeping her at the center of it all. I don't know if Nathan will ever see this episode or Rick, but I just wanted to say that I'm so impressed by both of them and all the work that they have done. And I can only imagine how many people's lives have been saved because of their efforts. And I hope they're so, so proud of that. I. I know Denise is proud of them for that, too. Denise clearly was such a special, special person. It just. When I think about her boys not having her, it just destroys me inside. I hope they never hear that call. Oh, God, it's just. It's so awful. But the fact that they can look at the legacy that she has left behind, I think that is incredible. And I did want to say this, and it makes me really happy to be able to say this, but Nathan has gone on to remarry, which I think is really beautiful. And I'm sure Denise would have wanted that for him. Finding love after losing his soulmate. I mean, he's said multiple times that Denise was his soulmate. Couldn't have been easy, but it makes me happy to know that he has love in his life again. He tells this story about how one time his wife Tanya went out for a walk but didn't have her phone. And when he came back to find the house empty, it was really triggering for him. All of the emotions from that day and what happened to Niche just flooded back in, as you can imagine. And I think that really goes to show that this is something that he will always carry with him the rest of his life is. Of course it is. I mean, we talk about justice so often as if it's the end of the chapter. And, you know, it's sort of something as humans, we want to be like, okay, well, there was justice. And, yes, that's something to celebrate. That is a huge victory. Not every family gets that, but it's really not the end. You know, these families deal with this for eternity. And what Michael did is just nothing short of evil. There's just no words for him. He's such a disgusting waste of a human being. And he took away a wife, a daughter, mother, and I don't think he really had any remorse about it. And like, I keep going back to, those boys will never get the chance to grow up with their mom. And I know that Nathan and her parents are doing everything they can to tell them about her. Their grandma now cuts their hair like Denise used to do, and she's always talking about what an amazing and kind person their mom was. But I can't help but feel so angry at the end of the day that she's not here to give them those haircuts and, you know, be in every part of their life to help raise them herself. It's just. It's so unfair. And for what? For what? It's sick. Oh, it's so awful. But, yeah, I definitely want to hear your thoughts on this case. I'm sure it tore a lot of you up as much as it did me. Just, man, there are no words for some of these cases. There really aren't. That is going to be it for me today, guys. Thank you for joining me for another episode. And make sure you follow the show on Spotify and Apple podcasts. It really does help me out. If you want to watch the video version of this show, you can find it on my YouTube channel, which will be linked, or you can just search Kendall Rae. I will be back with another episode soon, but until then, stay safe out there.