Keith Lamar (3:15)

Well, you know, as you noted in the podcast, we had those conversations quite a few years ago, about four or five years ago. But as I listened to it, it recalled a difficult period that I was passing through. I don't know if you know that, but I was going through a difficult time. When we first encountered each other, my mind was kind of jumbled a little bit. So I was pleasantly surprised that I sounded coherent and that your approach was so direct and clear because this is very complicated case. You know, I've spoken quite a few people who've listened to the podcast and those are some of the things that they have shared with me how human it was, how they were able to understand a little more the severity of the circumstances that I've been moving through. And so, you know, I was very glad that you found your way back to it.

Celisia Stanton (4:14)

Yeah, well, I'm curious too. Like when you were listening to it, were there parts where you felt like there's more I want to add here that I don't feel like is fully communicated?

Keith Lamar (4:26)

It's complicated stuff to talk about, even for me, someone who has been living with these details for almost three decades now. What I always hope people who engage with my story leave with is an understanding that what happened to me is not unique. For those of us who grow up in a system and are brought into the. I'm gonna use the word indoctrination that this country is so righteous and so upright. Find it hard to believe, but there's multiple examples that I wasn't even aware of. You know, I'm speaking about my own cases, so I don't know about all these other cases that resemble mine. It's quite a few individuals who had the exact same experience that I had, unbeknownst to me. So that's one of the things I'm always trying to get across to people because if you take my case single handedly and parse, the details of it do sound somewhat unbelievable. And I wish it was unbelievable. I wish it was unique. But it's not.

Celisia Stanton (5:37)

Though I definitely want to talk a little bit more about some of those other cases that kind of resemble yours in a bit. But I think, yeah, it's interesting what you're saying because creating Truer Crime, I feel like I'm consistently in a situation where I feel like, wow, the facts of this story are quite unbelievable. And I think the more true crime stories I tell, the more I realize that what we think is the anomaly is actually consistent. It's what the average is. And I think that trying to humanize people through storytelling on true crime is a way that we try to bridge that gap a little bit. What I thought was really fascinating is that we had talked right after you had listened to all four episodes, and you pointed out something that you kind of noticed in the first couple of episodes, which was something that you thought I had set up intentionally, but honestly. And that was specifically when you were comparing yourself to Michael San Giacomo, the reporter who thought that he was gonna be getting this break of a lifetime when he was picked as the journalist who would get to talk to some of the prisoners running the riot. His business card really was picked out of a hat, and he was selected. Can you kind of explain how you saw yourself in Michael Sam Giacomo? Why did that moment stick out to you?

Keith Lamar (6:55)

Well, it just struck me because in the exact same way that I was selected for these prosecution, people always wonder, like, why you? Why did they single you out? When I heard that part of segment with the journalist, even he was at home, and he, like most everybody, saw the Lucasville uprising unfolding on national television, and he got the assignment to write a story about it. And he found that he was in this pool of other journalists. And so when he tried to get inside the prison, they wouldn't give them access. And so, as you just said, they put their business cards in the hat and randomly picked. And so they brought him into the prison. And he thought that, you know, as a journalist, that he would be able to have a conversation with the authorities and with the prisoners and then from that, paint a picture for the public. But that wasn't the case of all that you said he was on the phone for a few seconds, and that constituted his exchange. That was his interaction with the system. In a similar way, when I was selected, you know, out of this vast array of suspects, I was bewildered. And when I start to engage with the jury process by electing to go to trial, I discovered that none of the evidence would be turned over, that I wouldn't be allowed to speak on my own behalf. And all those things struck me as commensurate with experience that this journalist had. You know, obviously it was to a less degree he wasn't sentenced to death. But I'm just talking about his experience that he encountered in his interaction with the system. And when people think about the system, you know, think about Law and Order, you know, everything. You have these actors, you know, these celebrities that come on the show, and you identify with them and think that that would be your interaction with the system. But it's really inhumane or inhuman. The system is like a machine, and it's like an assembly line. And so there's a real indifferent quality that comes along with your interaction with it. It's not personal. And that's the problem that I had from the beginning. Obviously, if you talking about putting Keith Lamar on death row, I'm going to feel a personal reaction to that. And so being put in this situation was very, very personal to me. But my experience was, was something of indifference, like, don't be mad. We do this to everybody. We tried to warn you. We tried to give you a deal. We gave you every opportunity to change your mind. And they did. But why would I plead guilty to something I didn't do? And when I voiced that, they seem incredulous, like, listen, you must not understand how the system work. And I didn't. But I found out the hard way, similar to the journalist. And I just thought the alignment of that. I thought that you had brought that in as an analogy to show how no matter from what point you try to engage with the system, you will be met with the same or similar indifference. And I think that was for anybody who was really, really listening to the episode. I think that's something that, to me, was glaring.

Celisia Stanton (10:02)

Yeah. And it's interesting because obviously, when you're on death row, you still have to engage with the system. That's like part of it, Right. If ever hope to get off of death row or even just to change the conditions that you're experiencing while on death row or in prison in general, the path that you have, at least initially, is to follow the process. And in the series, we talked about your evidentiary hearing, the one that you got after you were already on death row. You were trying to appeal your conviction. And at that evidentiary hearing, prosecutor Mark Peatmier admitted that he used this really narrow definition of what counted as exculpatory, meaning that your team didn't get all the evidence that they should have gotten to help build your case. Other men in the Lucasville five other folks who were prosecuted for crimes related to the riot were able to use that admission to strengthen their own cases. Their lawyers helped them do that. But because your lawyers didn't file the right motions, you didn't have that opportunity. How did that feel for you to, like, kind of Watch that chance, that opportunity that you had worked so hard for just kind of slip away from you.

Keith Lamar (11:19)

Well, none of this stuff is immediate in terms of your apprehension of what's going on. You're learning as you go along. Because I'm not an attorney, I dropped out of school in the 10th grade. And so all this stuff is above my head when it's happening. It was apparent that Mark Pete Mar had doing something unseemly. That admission was shrouded in a lot of jargon, which I didn't really understand. I was made to believe that having an evidentiary hearing in the first place was something rare and that I should feel really, really special that I'm being giving this rare forum in front of the judge where we would be able to put the lead prosecutor, Mark Pete Meyer, because no one had ever seen him. I've never seen him. Even though he was the one who actually created the criteria that they used to prosecute these cases, no one had ever saw him because he was the special prosecutor. And so seeing him walking through the court and, you know, having read about him, having read all the motions have been dissected, the structure that he had put together, I was expecting to see a devil. But he was just like this real studious, college preppy kind of individual. But at the time, I was really, really struck. And as I write in my book, condemned, you think the devil would have these scaly claws and this red skin and all of that, but the devil's basically in the details. And it was the details of what was divulged that really needed to be parsed and paid attention to. And when I got back to the cell and was able to do that, I saw clearly what had happened. It was a bait and switch. Basically, when you are indicted and you insist on a trial, the prosecutor is duly bound to turn over all the evidence, even the evidence that mitigates your culpability. But that, of course, also brings into play the possibility that you might be exonerated. So the state played this kind of game and said, unless they specifically exclude Keith Lamar by saying his name, we're not going to consider this excorporatory. So I sat there, I was listening to it, and, you know, I was able to kind of understand or comprehend that this was some bs Basically, because if you come into a convenience store and you see a robbery and later you are asked to witness to what you witness, you're going to tell them what you saw. I saw a guy in a red jacket. I saw a woman in a blue Skirt. But the thing that Pete Martin them did, even though you telling them you have to also include, oh, and by the way, Keith Lamar wasn't there. It really didn't make sense. But it made sense awesomely because the whole objective, it turns out, was to deprive me of this esculatory evidence. Not just me, but everybody who were on trial as a result of the alleged involvement in the riot. The thing that really struck me when I got back to the cell because it took me a time to put the pieces together because that's basically what they do. They, they jumble up all the pieces and give it to you to figure out. And that takes time. And while you're trying to figure out, there's a clock ticking. You only have a certain amount of time to respond. But I responded at the time, I pointed out the admiralities to my attorneys and told them that we should, as the other attorneys did for the other convicted suspects, that they should file a motion to stay and obey my proceedings so they can go back and comb the foul. And if they found anything that was in their view, exculpatory, they were supposed to bring that back in front of the judge and he would make the determination whether or not their constitutional rights were violated. And that happened in 2007, almost 20 years ago. And those guys cases are still going through the criminal process. And I'm facing, I'm on the verge of another execution date. And it was at my evidentiary hearing that these admissions were made. And I'm the only one who didn't benefit from them. That's how the system works. That's why there's no rich people here in prison, because you have attorneys, you pay for attorneys. See, I was indigent beholden to attorneys who were being paid by the state, the very people who I was trying to overcome. So their loyalties ultimately rested with the same people who had erroneously indicted me and prosecute me for these cases. And that's another thing that people don't really understand. They have relationships with these people. They went to law school with these people, go to dinner with these people. And it's basically a flip of the coin, you know, who's going to prosecute and who's going to be on the defense side. Had I been represented by independent counsel, someone who wasn't beholden to the state, they would have responded as these other attorneys did, and I wouldn't be having this conversation, at least not about opinion. Execution date, you know, at the very least I was still being court adjudicating. My case.

Celisia Stanton (16:14)

Why do you think your lawyers didn't file the right motions on time?

Keith Lamar (16:19)

I think they intentionally sabotaged my case, to put it bluntly. It took me a long time to come to that conclusion. We were right there at the critical point. And I was surprised in the whole courtroom, surprised that the prosecutor made these admissions. Because even though I didn't understand the far reaching implications of what he had admitted to, I readily understood that he had done something that was unseemly, that was inconsistent with the reading of the law. When I got back and was able to really go through the whole thing and gather the details, I was absolute in that. And when I presented to my attorneys, they gave me lip service that they were on the case, that they were going to do the right thing and follow suit with the other attorneys. But when it came down to it, they went back on their word. And this process is really, really, it's convoluted, it's complicated. After the evidentiary hearing, the magistrate judge puts forth this thing called a report and recommendation. And so he put forth a report and recommendation. My attorney's job was to object to any anomalies in that report. And so the magistrate judge intentionally put forth some mischaracterizations as to the facts. And my attorneys didn't object. And as it turns out, I find out that they didn't even write the objections. They let an intern in the office, someone who has even taken the bar, yet to write my objections. You don't do that when you fighting for someone's life. You don't do that when you cared about your client. And these objections that they filed at this intern file, understandably, he was a law student that was all haphazard, didn't have anything to do with the facts and the proceedings, the things that happened during my case. And so, you know, I was highly upset at the the time. I'm upset now recalling it. You know, it was just straight sabotage. And the magistrate judge is the one who appoint these death row cases. So when they turned on my case, he gave them Another case, another $250,000.

Celisia Stanton (18:17)

Wait, what do you mean by another $250,000?

Keith Lamar (18:20)

That's a budget. They give you a budget. So these defense attorneys, they have a budget, and within that budget, they have to adjudicate your case. So this is very lucrative business.

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Celisia Stanton (19:41)

Obviously, a lot has changed since that evidentiary hearing. You have exhausted your appeal since then, and you told me, and we talked about this in the series, that your goal right now is to really retry your case in the court of public opinion, but you are still trying to pursue legal methods of getting your case heard. So when I was catching up with you recently, you told me about something that I'd never heard of before called criminal rule 33. And I'm just wanting you to maybe explain explain what that means and why you think it matters in your case.

Keith Lamar (20:18)

See, when you are found guilty of a case, you have a direct appeal. At least when I was going to trial, they don't even have the direct appeal. Now you go straight to the federal courts and your hapeas corpus proceeding, which puts you in the place where I was just discussing in front of a magistrate judge, so on and so forth. And if the magistrate does recommend that your case be denied, you appealed that to a district court and based on what they do, they deny it. Then you, you're out of gas. You're waiting on the execution date. I went through that whole process. Well, Rule 33, even though your appeals have been exhausted and everything, Rule 33 stipulates that if you find any newly discovered evidence, you don't have to go back to the federal court. You can file your motion directly to the state court. And it's a state court finds that it's valid, they will give you a new trial. And this is what I'm saying about the cases that I just cited. The only case I could think of right now is a guy named Lamont Hunter.

Celisia Stanton (21:18)

Yeah. And so what you're talking about right now is that you and your team kind of in recent years have uncovered that there are these other men who were prosecuted out of Hamilton county, just like you. These are men whose convictions have since unraveled. And so like you mentioned, Lamont Hunter, who was freed after nearly 18 years when new medical evidence came light. But there's others too. There's Derek Jameson, who spent 20 years on death row before he was eventually exonerated. There was Elwood Jones, whose conviction was overturned after it came out that prosecutors withheld literally thousands of documents from his defense team. So for you, it's look at these other cases. They were prosecuted by the same office. They all came out of Hamilton county. They had their own cases. But similarly, evidence was withheld that made it so that they were convicted for something that they didn't do. So is that kind of the primary way that you're thinking about it, that like it's possible for you to have a legal means to get off of death row because other people who are in a similar situation to you have been able to do that?

Keith Lamar (22:21)

Yeah. Who were in a similar situation as me. Derrick Jameson specifically was in the deaf house five different times.

Celisia Stanton (22:28)

What's the Deaf house?

Keith Lamar (22:30)

The Deaf House is the place where you go prior to being executed if your sentence is being carried forward. They take you to Lucasville and there's a number of cells that's called the death office, the block where you're adjacent to the lethal injection chamber and they prepare you for that procedure. They cut all off all your hair, they give you your last rights, get your last meal. This man went through that five times. So from a personal standpoint, being where I am is unnerving. But I know that the guys that you just mentioned, Edward Jones, Lamont Hunter, they were exactly where I am now. You know, they were out of gas. Derek Jameson, he, as I said, was in the deaf house five separate times. I haven't reached that point yet, but I'm right now in the antechamber basically to the death house. You know, I'm right now sitting. It's a real nerve wracking place to be. But I also understand that other individuals were in the same place where I am now and they got the help they needed at the 11th hour and was able to come out on the other side. I'm right now in that position and we have been fortunate enough to acquire attorneys and we're going to apply the same rule and hopefully we get the same result. But it's a terrifying experience. It definitely is. Being in this situation and understanding that your life through these people, it doesn't mean anything. That's a sober conclusion to come to.

Celisia Stanton (24:06)

Yeah. And it sounds like having some stories of hope. Some people who have been in your shoes but have made it out the other side are helping to propel you forward. I think that a lot of folks who are listening, you know, might feel, what's even the point of retrying your case in public opinion? What can they do? Like, I feel like so often people listen to my show and they're like, I don't know how I can help. I want to help, but I'm not sure how to. And that's why we always put action items at the end of every episode as a way to kind of funnel that energy somewhere. But in a story like yours, which is life and death, right, for you, this is literally life and death. Like, what is it that folks who are listening can do to help?

Keith Lamar (24:52)

That's a good question. When I speak in terms of retrying my case in the court of public opinion, I simply mean to bring to the witness of the peoples who should my execution go forward, they can understand what is being done in their name. It also has something to do what you just said about energy. We live in a spiritual world encased in this thing called electromagnetic field. That's all about energy. People who become aware of your situation, they start thinking about what's going on with Keith Lamar. They start praying for someone named Keith Lamar. That I believe is the principal thing that can clean the pension on. When I first started out in my campaign, I wrote my book. That was the first thing. A documentary followed. I started doing these talks at universities. I started getting opportunities to engage with young people through my literacy project. We created a live album. I performed concerts all over the world. And ultimately through these different endeavors, that doesn't directly impact my criminal case. It speaks to who I am as a person. This is why I'm now able to pay for attorneys come from support from people. People making small donations through these concerts, through these talks. My appearance on Democracy now. And so the people, if they can support you in your efforts to regain your freedom, then that help comes in the form that is outside of what's supplied by the system. I mean, you are appointed attorneys, but those attorneys aren't really duty bound to protect your rights. I mean, that sound good, but I've read cases where the attorneys forgot to file the motion and that guy was killed. They've missed the deadline. So, you know, you put having your life in these people's hands is a very, very uncomfortable thing. But we live under on capitalism and you get what you pay for, quite literally. It's something that I had to find out the hard way. Had I known then what I know now about the criminal system, I probably would have took the deal. And so my ignorance protected me from actually violating myself. Because had I taken that deal, I would have died a somewhat premature death. I was 25, 26 years old at the time. I'm 56 now. That's 30 years ago. I'm 56 years old. I'm a grown up now. I'm not an adolescent, not a kid. So I've had the opportunities. You kind of experience what it means to really be alive when it really means to reach for your potential and do something righteous with your life. That's the thing that's very, very important to me in terms of my journey that I've been given the opportunity to achieve myself. You know, had I died when I was 26 years old, old, or even 36 years old, that would have been tragic. For a lot of those years, my life was always in the hands of other people, people who were supposedly smarter than I was, more learned than I was. And I guess as it relates to the criminal justice system, that holds true. What I came to understand, that in order for my life to be my life, I had to stand up and represent it, had to claim it. And that's what the campaign has primarily been about. Yes, I stand in my innocence. I stood on my innocence since day one. But more than that, I've come to understand that my life has value. And every day that I wake up, every day that I'm blessed to put my feet on the ground, I try to reach for that value and express it in a way that is forceful. That this whole system, when you sit in the cell for 30 years, as I have, you are also undergoing this very debilitating process. It's breaking you down. It's like a digestive system. It's breaking you down and robbing you, you of all your redeeming qualities. So by the time they get you to the death chamber, they don't have to feel guilty because this is not even a human being. And so part of what I've been trying to do in terms of my practice is to hold on to my humanity. Because if and when I am unfortunate enough to be lying on the gurney someday, I want to make sure that they are killing the human being. I don't want them to be able to go home later on that day and Continue with their life as if they hadn't killed somebody. Because if and when that day comes, they will kill a man. And that's my principal job, to make sure that I hold on to my humanity, make sure that I hold on to my manhood, to make sure that I am doing something real and righteous with my time. That's the thing that they can't deprive me of, you know, seems obvious in terms of my circumstances. But you are only cut off to the degree that you believe that you are cut off from humanity. You know, retry my case in the court of public opinion. It's just another way of saying, and reconnecting with community, reconnecting with this thing called humanity of which I am a part. No matter what these people say, no matter what, you know, circumstances I have been forced to endure, I'm part of humanity. I'm a part of that. Not just from a victim standpoint, but from someone who can actually offer something to other young people who are coming behind. That's how I spend my time.

Celisia Stanton (30:05)

That's one of the things that I really connected with in our conversations and in telling your story was that this was a story about a riot. This is a story about the criminal justice system. This is a story about your claims of innocence, but it was also a story about your life and about what life looks like in a place where, first of all, a place that nobody thinks about death row especially, and then also how so much life can be lived there. One of the things that I really appreciated about all of our conversations is just, you know, you're kind of willing to be candid. You're not hiding things. At least I haven't felt that way. I felt like you are willing to admit to mistakes that you've made. And when we were talking about doing this kind of follow up, one of the things you told me is you didn't want to shy away from hard questions. You didn't want to shy away from people who are skeptical. You kind of wanted to talk about that. Heads on. So I think primarily one of the things that strikes folks is like, okay, you know, they've heard this whole story. Maybe it's all plausible, but it really brings up some bigger questions about the system. And if you really do feel that ultimately, you know, you have good people trying to do the right thing in these systems, then how could something like this happen? And so it brings up this question of why would the state of Ohio single you out as one of the primary leaders? I mean, they. They said that you Killed five people. That's half of the people who died at this riot. Why you? Why would they pick you?

Keith Lamar (31:39)

Well, I think through some very unfortunate coincidences, I was in the pod. I came to the pod where coincidentally, all the hostages were being held. I didn't have a face covering because I wasn't part of the riot. I wasn't trying to shield my identity. I was in prison for murder. I was a drug dealer when I was a teenager, was heavily involved in the crack cocaine epidemic. And one day, some group of guys, you know, attempted to rob me. And I ended up shooting somebody with myself shot. And I came to prison. That's how I ended up at the maximum security prison. And I just so happened to be in this spot. But the fact that I was in prison for murder, that my face had been seen, I was among the vast array of suspects. And just as that reporter name was picked out of the hat, my name was picked. This guy looks good. But they never expected me to go to trial. Why would I, if I've killed five people, which, if true, makes me a mass murderer. If I was actually guilty of what you was accusing me of, you offer me a sweetheart deal, plead guilty to murder, and we run the time concurrent with the time you're already doing. So that's no 30 years in solitary confinement. That's no beatings, no hunger strikes, no mental emotional anguish. None of that. Just plead guilty and it'd be like you're getting off scot free. That's what they told me. I'm not a fool. Yeah, I dropped out of school, but I know how to add two plus two is four. I get it. I understand why people would be skeptical. But those people haven't had any personal experience with the criminal justice system. And what I'm telling you about the system is my personal experience, which is supported by the cases that have cited by Lamont Hunter, Elwood Jones, Derrick Jameson. Why them? I think it has something to do with the fact that they were black and poor. And we live in a country whose history is strouded in this kind of racist hatred and brutality that is uniquely directed at poor black people. We can't forget that. When people talk, you know, about, well, why did they single you out? I sometimes think that they want me to assist them in believing that this country is something other than what it is. That question, to me, you know, rings with a certain falseness. It's like they want me to help them hold on to their delusions about where we are. Anybody who knows anything about this country understand that it has always had a taint. Everybody knows that. And so for someone to ask me, why did they take your case to a county where it was 96 white? Why was your jury all white? Why were you the only black person in the whole place? Those are the questions that I can ask to the people who are asking me, why was you singled out? This is big state. It's a whole lot of places that are predominantly black urban areas. Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati. They could have took me to any of those places, but they took me to Ironton, Ohio. Why you think that is? Why out of a jury pool of 100 people, there was only two black people. And those two black people were summarily dismissed. Why do you think that is? Why you think it was a Hamilton county prosecuting office, as it turns out, who deals directly in this type of prosecution? Why you think out of all the prosecutor, why you think they picked them? I mean, I get it, is what I'm saying. No, I understand. I'm not sitting here because how I've spent these past three decades is reading about this history. And I don't feel special. I don't feel unique. I don't feel any different from Emmett Till. I don't feel any different from Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. People who were as fascinated not to say that I was on that level of importance or anything like that. But I'm a man, I'm a human being. You know, I understand this history. I know about the middle passage. I read about the things. I also read about the Holocaust. I've read about the long trail, the tears. I understand all of that. So I'm a human being, is just having this experience down here on earth. I'm not sitting here crying. I want to fight for my life because I understand that it's something that's worth fighting for. But should the day come that, you know, as I said in, in the podcast, you know, I can die ton of my slate. You can't too. Anybody who's listening to this can die tonight. That's how it is down here. So I'm not talking about dying. I'm talking about living. That's the thing that I'm primarily focused on in a part of me living my life is fighting this erroneous conviction. But that's not my whole life. What these people have done to me, they have done to other people a long time ago and recently. That's nothing new. Anybody who knows the history of this country understand that. So I'm not bemoaning that we're just talking specifically about my criminal justice case. It was foul, it was corrupt, and that's actually all I have to say about that. But if you want to know about me as an individual, about what I'm doing with my life, that's a totally different conversation. My whole life is not what these people have done to me. And see, that's what I meant when I said, had I died when I was 26 or when I was 36, that would have been tragic, because up until that point, that was my whole life. What these people did to me. It's not what these people do to you, it's what you do about what happens to you that represents your life, that constitutes your life. I haven't deprived me of my life. They haven't prevented me from becoming myself. And the fact that I've been in South J confinement for the past 30 years just speaks to the resilience of the human spirit. It can't stop you from living. It can stop you from doing anything. Only you can do that. But, you know, I went 18 years without touching my family. Just to give you an example what I mean, you know, I filed complaints, I filed a lawsuit, and I kept asking the warden, when would I be able to touch my family? He told me that that would never happen, that'll never happen. And I believed him because he was the warden. It's like, we believe President Trump because he's the President of the United States. What people need to know and what I had to find out the hard way, it's like, listen, only thing is true, the only thing that can happen to you as a human being in terms of you not being able to live. The only way that can happen is through your own consent. Me touching my family, as it turns out, was between me and my family. Same thing about this world. This world doesn't belong to a certain group of people. People. We're all here. We are all alive. So it's not really a focusing on the negative thing. What they done to me, what they do to me, they did this. And see what you see, that's what the people in power want you to have your focus on. Because if you focus on dying, you can't be focused on living. And this problem that they have with me right now that I'm living my life, they can't stop me from making a live album. The only way you can stop me from making an album is to prevent me from talking on the phone wrong. And you have to break your own rules to do that. And I'm gonna tell people about that. Stop me from writing the book. Not if I know how to write a book. But that's the thing that I have to learn how to do. I have to learn how to write. And once I do that, I've learned how to fight. I've taught myself how to fight. It can't stop me from doing any of that. They can't stop me from talking to you right now. I mean, it could, but then they would have to prove the thing that I'm trying to express to people, that the system is corrupt. They can't dictate what I'm saying. That comes from me reading thousands of books and having conversations with all these different professors and journalists and all these different people. You know, I know what I'm talking about. I understand.

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Celisia Stanton (40:05)

One of the things that struck me in our previous conversations is that you described yourself as being already in prison before you ever got to prison. It seems almost as if you've lived more life or you. Well, certainly you've lived more life in terms of numbers of years. You've lived more life in prison than you did outside of prison. So that's just factually true. But I also wonder if you feel like you lived more life in terms of understanding who you are and what your purpose is. What did you kind of mean when you said that when you felt like you were already in prison before you ever got there, and when did you feel like you first really tasted freedom behind bars?

Keith Lamar (40:44)

I mean, I think we all are kind of born on a path. I think we all are, you know, like a little apple seed. That the destiny of that seed is to become an apple tree with these fruit. That's somewhat similar to our own personal journeys. We are who we are. We come from somewhere, from somebody extension of a long lineage of people who struggle, who strive, who were, you know, involved in moving forward. Part of my lineage comes through the middle Passage, through chattel slavery, through Jim Crow, through civil rights and all these various things. And. And I didn't know that, that I was an extension of that, but I had a sense of who I was. When I was a young person, 9, 10, 11 years old. But somehow when I entered school, it was more than just learning math and history and all those things. You know, my self concept was being developed also. And I got somehow the misunderstanding that what I had was more important than who I was. That was the prison. Because now my whole life was centered on getting things. Martin Luther King talk about the thingness of life, how that is the principal reason why we haven't arrived at our humanity or found ourselves to a human path. Because we're worried about things, about having things instead of becoming human beings. And for a long time in my life, especially as a young person, you know, I was primarily focused on acquiring stuff. But you can't bring Mercedes Benz to prison with you. And all those clothes, all those things that I had that was so important to me that I was willing to risk my life. It's only because I didn't know the value of my life. And somebody asked a young person, hey man, let me give you $3 for those brand new Air Jordans, they would know readily that that's not a good deal. They look at you like you stupid, hey, let me give you this gold chain for $3. No one would make that deal. When we're talking about the value of your life, you're talking about intrinsic value, value that's not on the outside, value that you, you can't readily see. I was just on a Visit with my 16 year old nephew and I was trying to communicate this to him. And that's the thing that I had to come to when I came to prison. I met these older guys and they kind of helped me find my way back to myself, to that 1112 year old kid. When I had a sense of who I was, that put me back on the path. But I was at the beginning of it. I started just where I left off and I had to read and reach and grow and figure out how to learn myself better. And you know, that's what I set myself to do. So to your question, how long have I felt free? I would say since I was 34, 35 years old. I was coming into. And that's, that's late in the game I realized. But freedom is sweet no matter when you get it. So yeah, I knew then that things will be differently and they have, you know, in terms of what I would be able to do from this very isolated and dark place. Things that technically speaking aren't supposed to be possible, but everything becomes possible once you become yourself. Because I'm talking about A path, you know, path that is, is planted inside of you. Once you find your way on that path, you know, the goal, you know, a life is not to have things. That's my point, is to become yourself, to achieve yourself. And you can do that in prison. As long as you're on planet Earth, as long as you are conscious of your purpose and path, you can achieve yourself. And you know, I've done that. Not to say that I'm finished striving, finish trying to do something bigger and better for myself and for people that are in my sphere of influence. You know, I am, I'm on the path now, and that's a good thing.

Celisia Stanton (44:35)

And since you've been on that path, you've done a lot, right? And you've talked about that in this conversation quite a bit. You know, you wrote a book, you released albums, you've painted, and all from this cell on death row. If you had to give up every form of expression but one, music, painting, writing, whatever it might be, what would you keep?

Keith Lamar (44:55)

Well, they are the same thing, just different mediums. It's all an extension of yourself. All these things that you are doing, you just learn the mechanics of them. It's you saying the same thing. So you're not giving up anything unless you give up yourself. So my whole goal is just really to hold on to myself and all these things, these forms of expression. It's just a matter of learning the techniques and different things. They all saying the same thing. So I am here, I am alive, I came through here. So that's the only thing I'm always trying to do and say in whatever mode that I'm operating in the music is just to say that, that you didn't conquer me, that you didn't prevail, you didn't stop me or prevent me from becoming myself. That's what I'm doing when I'm painting, when I'm writing, when I'm thinking, when I'm performing. And that's what all of us are doing, whether we realize it or not. And a lot of us, if we don't realize, we are still saying something. When you have a Mercedes Benz and don't have a house to live in and nowhere to lay your head, you are saying that I don't understand what I'm doing here. I was telling my nephew that. My nephew, he wanted me to do a portrait of him and not ask him, what have you done? You deserve to be memorialized in that way. 16, you never done anything. You know what I'm Saying that's the problem. You know, people are just giving you stuff that you haven't deserved, that you haven't earned, you haven't paid any dues. I couldn't even begin to paint you. What I'm going to say about you, I said, come back 10 years from now and ask me that. And maybe because it's not even me even having the diet to do that, where's the inspiration going to come from? Do something. And you know, I was trying to get him to kind of understand, like, listen, man, you wasting your time. It's hard to get a young person to understand that. And I think that's one of the real clever things about this system. And this whole thing of saying you've grown when you 18, no, you're not. You still a kid, you still adolescent. Your brain is not even developed. You don't know who the hell you are. You can't know who you are because you go through this process, this education system, quote unquote. And they telling you, you know, about Paul Revere, about Christopher Columbus and all these pointless references, that has nothing to do with your path aside from how it connects to how to slavery and whatnot. Although they proud that history, they don't really want to tell that history. So I'm trying to have these conversations with young people about to start a book club here in New York in the next couple weeks. We're going to be reading this book called James. You know the book about.

Celisia Stanton (47:47)

Yeah, the retelling of Huckleberry Finn.

Keith Lamar (47:50)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're from the black perspective. But James was actually thinking, because he was on that journey too. And it's almost like, hold up, what about me? I was also walking that path, you know, Toastmaster standpoint. And that's essentially what I'm also trying to do. We're going to leave this planet. At least there's no doubt in my mind about that. You know, I've lost quite a few people being here, which has helped me somewhat in releasing my graphs in terms. Because you want to hold on to life so hard, but part of living is also dying. That's what makes life even worth anything, because we're going to lose it. And you have to cultivate that awareness. If you're in a relationship, if you have people that you love, the only thing that makes that love real is the awareness that you can lose it. So you can't take it for granted. You have to renew your commitments every day. I have to renew my commitment because really I can stop this whole Thing now, I've done enough in terms of representation. Anybody who Google me or who going through the archives would know what I'm about, who I am. You could tell a tree by its fruit. And I think I've left enough fruit for people to have an inkling of who I am. And if I didn't want to suffer anymore, I can end this tonight. If I wanted to, I can end this journey right now, you know, and that's the thing that I understand about this life. And so I'm not a big complainer, you know, because if this, what I'm going through was really unbearable, I can end it. That's the thing about life. It's only one way into this world, but it's a million ways out of here. And that's the deal that we have with the universe. Yeah, it's hard. It's gonna be hard down there. It's gonna be very, very difficult, especially until you learn what you are doing. It took me a long time to figure out what I was doing. And until then, it was pain on top of pain. Unbearable. But I'm glad I persevered. The difficult part, to find myself, to find my way to the sweet part. And my life is not all bitter. Some sweet parts in here too. A lot of people that I love.

Celisia Stanton (49:57)

It strikes me kind of what you were saying about your. And your nephew. And I feel like that's something that I always get out of my conversations with you, is you're always. Especially when you're talking to younger folk, people coming up behind you is your want to impart some wisdom, some knowledge to help them on their journey. And also, one thing that I've enjoyed about our conversations is how often you kind of pull in other references. You always seem to have a book recommendation or a poem or a chapter to read. And of course, we've joked about my own reading lists or like, moreover, like the books that I haven't read yet. But I'm curious, maybe selfishly, if you were to just hand me, like one book and say, okay, Celisia, I'm 30 now, so if you gotta read this before you turn 40, what would that book be?

Keith Lamar (50:44)

The Redemption of the Cross by James Baldwin. I mean, one book, you know, it's a difficult question in the sense that there's so many books that have had a big impact on me and my life, and there's too many, really to name, but all of them basically are saying the same thing. Wake up and live. Not the books that resonate with me, the books that I read with other young people. It's just this central thing, the through line that runs through all of these books. And I'm reading it with a group of students on case Western Veteran right now, group of undergrad. You know, the thing I always want to just impress upon people in terms of where I am, in terms of my understanding of life, that this is precious thing that we are moving through. Which might sound ironic given my, my past, but I didn't know that when I was a kid, similar to my 16 year old nephew. And it's not his fault that he doesn't know that because your brain is still developing, but you want to put into place the foundation. So when that big thing comes, when that big understanding arise, you can hold it. That is really, really used when you wake up and realize where you are and how short your time here really is. Think about Martin Luther King. You think about Malcolm X, they died before they were 40. But look at your output, because they understood early. By the time they prefrontal cortex was fully formed, they was off to the races. And so that's what I'm saying, you know, to. However, you know, I've seen pictures of you, by the way, your marriage and with your husband, because I was curious. I wanted to see your face and see whether or not the image I have had formed of you in my mind was consistent with how you actually are. Because the spirit, your aura, I feel like I know who you are, what you're about. And I was happy to see, I said, yeah, yeah, this is, that's how I saw you and your husband. That whole thing, you know, it's beautiful, got a beautiful smile, got a beautiful glow about you. Your husband looking at you as if he really, really loves you. But you know, all that stuff is difficult and I know that. And I've never been married, but I just know how difficult it is just to be with myself, let alone to be in a relationship with someone else. But I've been in relationships. I'm in love, I have friends, I have, you know, all the things that a human being is supposed to experience. Down here, I'm experiencing those things. You know, it's just a matter of waking up and living. So that book, I think, would assist you in doing that just to appreciate the magnitude of what this is.

Celisia Stanton (53:27)

And like you said, for all of us, you know, our condition is terminal. No matter what your fate is in terms of your case and your current situation on death row, you know that one day this ends, right? One day you die. But of course you, unlike a lot of folks, are kind of facing your death much more directly. And I think to close, I just kind of want to hear from you. If the state were to carry out your execution in 2027, what is it that you most want people to remember about Keith Lamar?

Keith Lamar (54:03)

I have to once again refer to one of my literary heroes, Martin Luther King, and what he said, because, you know, this was a brilliant person. He really was. He was an exceptional person. You know, he got his PhD when he was in his 20s, won the Noble priest prize, and he carried a lot of weight, and he accumulated a lot of accolades. But at the end of the day, he said, you know, I don't want to be remembered for any of those things. You know, once, if somebody stand up at my funeral, I just want it to be said that I tried to love somebody. And I feel similarly. I just. I was not many different. A difficult situation, that's true. But because of the work that I've done on myself through the grace and kindness of others, I've been able to arrive at that realization that love is really the only thing that means anything. Because it's so difficult. People who share your last name, who share your blood, might not always respond or treat you like family. And so it's a natural of ways on this planet to accumulate a lot of bitterness. And then if you're lucky, you might do something that's worth talking about. No, but at the end of the day, if you haven't loved anybody, I mean really love somebody, then what have you done? What have you achieved? You know, I sent you a poem. You know, in one of the letters that I wrote you, it was more or less saying the same thing. Have you achieved what you set out to do after all I did? And what was that to be for love? To say that I would be loved on this earth? I think I've come a long way. I have a lot of people in my life who love me, and that means quite an accomplishment.

Celisia Stanton (55:57)

I think that's a great answer. That was my conversation with Keith Lamar. Keith is scheduled to be executed on January 13, 2027. His legal team is preparing what could be his very last chance to get back into court. But legal help is super expensive, and his time is running out. If you've been moved by Keith's story, I really hope that you'll consider supporting his legal defense fund. Donations will go directly to his team, and they're tax deductible through the nonprofit justice for Keith Lamar, even a small reoccurring gift can make a really big difference. You can donate@keithlamar.org donate during our conversation, Keith mentioned a book that's been important to him, one that he recommends I read before I turn 40. It's the cross of Redemption by James Baldwin. If you wanted to check it out yourself. And if you'd like to see photos of Keith and follow along as we continue to share more about his story, which we will, you can find us on Instagram truecrimepod, and you can also find me on Instagram and TikTok, Alicia Stanton, and through my weekly newsletter, SincerelyCelecia, at SincerelyCelecia.substack.com but before I go, I want to leave you with the Raymond Carter poem KE shared with me in a recent letter, a reminder of what he's still reaching for even after decades on death row. And did you get what you wanted from this life? Even so, I did. And what did you you want? To call myself Beloved. To feel myself beloved on the earth. Thank you so much for listening. Coverage varies by plan.

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Celisia Stanton (58:35)

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Keith Lamar (58:38)

That'S endurancewarranty.com you'd never think it's gonna.

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Celisia Stanton (58:47)

True or Crime podcast is back, and this season, every story has something in common. It's not what it seems.

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There's word tonight of a prison riot.

Keith Lamar (58:55)

I wanted it to stop.

Celisia Stanton (58:57)

From Molly Tibbets to the Menendez brothers, this season we're exploring what the headlines missed and the people they left behind. Listen to truer crime for free on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, Amazon Music or Apple Podcasts.