Five Thousand Dollars for a Death Sentence: Inside the Toforest Johnson Investigation w/ Beth Shelburne

Summary

Truer Crime: Five Thousand Dollars for a Death Sentence — Inside the Toforest Johnson Investigation with Beth Shelburne

Episode Release Date: February 13, 2025
Host: Celisia Stanton
Guest: Beth Shelburne, Investigative Journalist

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Truer Crime, host Celisia Stanton delves deep into the tumultuous case of Toforest Johnson, a man on Alabama's death row whose conviction has sparked intense debate and scrutiny. Joining her is Beth Shelburne, a seasoned investigative journalist renowned for her meticulous reporting on legal injustices in Alabama. Together, they unravel the complexities of Johnson's case, shedding light on systemic flaws and the human stories intertwined within.

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Background of the Toforest Johnson Case

Toforest Johnson was convicted for the murder of Deputy Bill Hardy in 1995. Over the past 25 years, Johnson has remained incarcerated, awaiting his execution. The case has been marred by questionable witness testimonies, particularly from a young informant, Yolanda Chambers, whose reliability has been consistently undermined.

Notable Quote:
"I've always based my opinion on this case according to the evidence and, you know, what's in the record. I've seen the whole investigative record, and there's nothing there."
— Beth Shelburne [06:09]

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Creating Ear Witness: An Investigative Journey

Beth Shelburne discusses her pivotal role in the podcast series Ear Witness, which critically examines Johnson's conviction. She emphasizes the rigorous process undertaken to uncover the truth, including extensive research, interviews, and analysis of court documents.

Key Points:

• Research Duration: Initially expected to take 3-6 months, the research extended to a full year.
• Comprehensive Review: Included police reports, trial transcripts, and media coverage.
• Interviews: Conducted over 80 on-record interviews, despite challenges like fading memories and reluctance from key individuals.

Notable Quote:
"The biggest challenge we faced was time. I mean, this case started in 1995. It's over 25 years old."
— Beth Shelburne [04:13]

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Systemic Flaws and Investigation Shortcomings

The discussion highlights significant shortcomings within the Alabama legal system that contributed to Johnson's prolonged incarceration. Shelburne points out the original prosecutor's unique stance in supporting a new trial due to doubts about witness credibility—a rare occurrence, especially in death penalty cases.

Notable Quote:
"Our system is so adversarial and so many prosecutors are only interested in defending convictions. The fact that he is speaking out in the way that he is when he doesn't have to, that's really what told me 100% this case is extraordinary."
— Beth Shelburne [08:36]

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Questioning Witness Credibility: Violet Ellison’s Role

A critical element of Johnson's conviction hinges on the testimony of Violet Ellison, who claimed to have overheard Johnson confess to the murder. Shelburne's investigation into Ellison reveals a pattern of unreliable testimonies and possible ulterior motives, including financial incentives.

Key Findings:

• Family Testimonies: Described Ellison as untrustworthy and motivated by money.
• Recurring Witness: Ellison appeared as a state's witness in multiple cases, raising concerns about her credibility.
• Reward Payment: The state awarded Ellison $5,000 post-conviction, suggesting possible financial motivation.

Notable Quote:
"She testified and identified a woman who was being charged as one of the people involved and claimed that she could see her from the window of her house... the woman was acquitted because there was no way she could have seen it."
— Beth Shelburne [23:07]

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Missed Leads and Alternative Suspects

Shelburne uncovers overlooked leads that could exonerate Johnson, notably the description of a light-colored sedan witnessed by multiple independent sources. This detail stands in stark contrast to the prosecution's focus on Johnson and his co-accused.

Key Points:

• Vehicle Description: Light copper or gold sedan with a burgundy vinyl top—a specific and consistent description ignored by investigators.
• Alternative Suspects: Other individuals initially charged were released, but their lack of engagement post-release further complicates the case.

Notable Quote:
"That description is the only consistent description of a getaway car that was given by witnesses. And I think that someone shot Deputy Hardy, got into that sedan... and got away with murder."
— Beth Shelburne [17:33]

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Current Legal Battle and Future Steps

Despite mounting evidence and support from the original prosecutor and Johnson's family, Alabama's Attorney General has resisted calls for a new trial, arguing procedural barriers. Shelburne elucidates the legal stalemate that keeps Johnson on death row.

Key Points:

• Attorney General’s Stance: Claims procedural rules prevent overturning the conviction despite the District Attorney's support for a new trial.
• DA’s Actions: Filed for a new trial twice, citing disintegrated conviction foundations.
• Awaiting Hearing: No scheduled hearing has been set to address the new trial request.

Notable Quote:
"The Attorney General is arguing that it doesn't count, that it's not evidence, that it's a subjective opinion."
— Beth Shelburne [34:44]

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Advocacy and Raising Awareness

Shelburne and Johnson's family actively advocate for his exoneration. Their efforts include social media campaigns, media interviews, and collaborations with organizations like Greater Birmingham Ministries.

Key Points:

• Family Advocacy: Johnson's children utilize platforms like Instagram and TikTok to share their father's story and garner support.
• Community Support: Events such as prayer vigils and public demonstrations aim to keep the case in the public eye.
• Shelburne’s Role: Participates in events and speaks out to amplify the call for justice.

Notable Quote:
"They are such an incredibly loving and hopeful family that have great faith that the truth will prevail."
— Beth Shelburne [27:26]

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Insights on the Justice System and Call for Reform

Beyond the Johnson case, Shelburne offers a critical analysis of Alabama's criminal justice system, highlighting issues like mass incarceration, harsh sentencing laws, and inhumane prison conditions. She advocates for comprehensive reforms to ensure justice and rehabilitation.

Key Points:

• Mass Incarceration: Alabama incarcerates a disproportionate number of individuals for extended periods.
• Systemic Problems: Includes drug abuse within prisons, extortion, and lack of support for reintegration.
• Reform Necessities: Shelburne calls for reevaluating sentencing lengths, treating inmates with dignity, and embracing rehabilitation over mere punishment.

Notable Quote:
"We have a human rights crisis in our jails and prisons right now... Everybody is worthy of redemption."
— Beth Shelburne [39:52]

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Conclusion and Call to Action

The episode concludes with a heartfelt appeal from both hosts to listeners to engage with the case by listening to the Ear Witness podcast, spreading awareness, and supporting advocacy efforts. Shelburne emphasizes the importance of collective action in challenging and reforming flawed systems.

Final Thoughts:
Shelburne expresses frustration with the current state of the justice system but remains hopeful through the unwavering support of Johnson's family and dedicated advocates.

Notable Quote:
"We have a long way to go in our criminal justice system... Almost everybody who has looked at this case outside the Attorney General's office thinks he didn't do it."
— Beth Shelburne [36:22]

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Supporting Resources

• Ear Witness Podcast: In-depth exploration of Toforest Johnson’s case.
  Listen on major podcast platforms.

• Greater Birmingham Ministries: Organization leading advocacy efforts for Johnson.
  Website: Greater Birmingham Ministries

• Beth Shelburne’s Work:

  • Substack Newsletter: Moth to Flame
  • Website: bethshelburne.com

• Toforest Johnson’s Advocacy:
  Website: taforusjohnson.com

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Gerald Munroe Magazine: Features Beth Shelburne’s articles on criminal justice in Alabama.
• NBC News, LA Times, and The Daily Beast: Publications where Shelburne’s work has been featured.
• Ear Witness Podcast: Recognized by Entertainment Weekly as one of the 30 Best True Crime Podcasts of All Time.

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Total Duration Covered: ~46 minutes
Notable Sections: Interviews, case analysis, systemic critique, advocacy efforts.

This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the enduring quest for justice and the profound impact investigative journalism can have in uncovering the truth behind complex legal battles.

Transcript

[Host]

Foreign you're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.

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[Beth Shelburne]

18/ DNC supply hi friends, I am thrilled to share a recent collaboration I did with the team here at Tenderfoot TV for their latest series up and Vanished Weekly. This week I joined the up and Vanished team to dig into the tragic story of Mitrice Richardson, a case that's haunted Los Angeles for over a decade. It began on September 16, 2009 when 24 year old Mitrice was acting oddly at a Malibu restaurant. Authorities were called, but hours later she was released from custody in the middle of the night. No car, no phone, no wallet. What happened next is a heartbreaking mix of mystery and tragedy. Up in Vanish Crater, Payne Lindsay discusses the details of Mitrice's case step by step. Then host Maggie Freeling and I break down the case, asking the tough where did the system fail and who should be held accountable? To listen to the full episode, search up and Vanish Weekly in your podcast app or wherever you listen. While you're there, follow the show for more investigative episodes. Hi friends. Today I'm bringing you something a little different, a bonus episode featuring a conversation with investigative journalist Beth Shelburne. If you listen to this week's episode on Tafores Johnson, you already know that Beth's reporting was instrumental in uncovering the deep flaws in his conviction. But beyond that, she's one of the best investigative reporters working today. Beth has spent more than 25 years reporting on injustice in Alabama's legal system, covering everything from wrongful convictions to the horrors of the state's prison system. Her work has appeared in the Daily Beast, the LA Times, and the Bitter Southerner. And in 2023, she created and hosted Ear Witness, a podcast about Tafor's case that was named one of Entertainment Weekly's 30 Best True Crime podcasts of all time. She also writes a substack newsletter called Moth the Flame, where she continues to dig into the intersection of justice, injustice, and life in Alabama.

[Maggie Freeling]

I was so excited to have the.

[Beth Shelburne]

Opportunity to chat with Beth and I think you're really going to enjoy hearing from her. We dive deep going behind the scenes of Ear Witness to talk about what.

[Maggie Freeling]

It looked like to actually put it all together.

[Beth Shelburne]

We also get into some of the biggest questions still hanging over this case, like who else might have killed Deputy Bill Hardy and what's next in Tafora's fight for freedom. So let's get into it.

[Maggie Freeling]

So I just wanted to jump in by talking a little bit more about the process of creating and making Ear Witness. I felt like from the moment I listened to the first episode, it's such a compelling, well reported series. And you know, that really sticks out. I think there's so much true crime media, but this was just so well done. And I'm just curious if you could walk us through a little bit more about the process of how it came together. Like what are some of the biggest challenges you face while working on it? What kind of surprised you? What's the behind the scenes of that?

[Host]

Yeah, thank you for the kind words about Ear Witness. Thankfully I had a fantastic producer named Mara McNamara that worked with me from the very beginning. So once we decided to do the project, we took a solid year to do all of the research interviews, all the reporting that you hear in the series. We thought it would take three to six months and it ended up taking a year. But we started with doing a full examination of everything that is knowable about this case. So we went back to the very beginning. We went through the investigative file, starting from like the very first police report that was filed after Deputy Bill Hardy was shot and killed. We read the trial transcripts cover to cover and we did a full audit of every single media story that had ever been written about this crime, about the trials, everything that happened up until present day. And so we really wanted to reach out to anyone and everyone that would be willing to talk to us. And we ended up with over 80 on the record interviews during that year that we were doing all this reporting, the biggest challenge we faced was time. I mean, this case started in 1995. It's over 25 years old. Many people that were involved have died. They've gotten older, they've retired, they've moved away. Their memories just were not as clear as we would have hoped. And then some people, just because of the stakes in this case, you have a police officer shot and killed. You have a man on death row. They just didn't want to get involved.

[Maggie Freeling]

So one of the things that I found interesting while listening was just, you're really kind of bringing us into the story, tackling things from so many different angles. And over time, I just found myself feeling like more and more, I was convinced that Taforis and Andregas had nothing to do with this murder. And really, even just from the very beginning, I feel like having multiple alibi witnesses which place them at a completely different location was alarming just kind of from the outset. So I'm curious for you, as somebody who was going through that reporting process, was there a moment during your investigation or your reporting that particularly solidified your.

[Beth Shelburne]

Own belief in his innocence?

[Maggie Freeling]

And did you kind of try to stay sort of mentally objective about it till the completion of the process, or how did you feel?

[Host]

Well, going into the process of making the podcast, I had already been reporting on Tafora's case for over a year, so I didn't go into it, you know, immediately believing that he was innocent. I knew that he said that, that his family said that, that his attorneys believed that, but I wasn't really sure. But once we started really doing a deep dive into this, I think the thing that really stood out to me in this case that's different from other wrongful convictions is, is the position of the original prosecutor who supports a new trial and has spoken on the record saying that he has doubts about the credibility of this case. And, you know, that never happens post conviction in any case, really, but especially a death penalty case. In the process of doing the podcast, we interviewed Jeff Wallace, the original prosecutor, three different times. And just his openness and his willingness to hear what we were discovering, we were able to develop a relationship with him. And I think the doubt about the witnesses credibility that he expressed and then kind of how that grew throughout the process of what we were bringing to him and telling him, we were learning that, to me, it's so extraordinary. But to be, you know, in a relationship with somebody as they're going through that process was really convincing to me and showed me, you know, the degree to which he and others that were involved in this prosecution really have deep, profound concerns that the wrong person was convicted. And I think that our system is so adversarial and so many prosecutors are only interested in defending convictions. The fact that he is speaking out in the way that he is when he doesn't have to, that's really what told me 100% this case is extraordinary. I mean, I've always based my opinion on this case according to the evidence and, you know, what's in the record. I've seen the whole investigative record, and there's nothing there. I've taken a position, I believe, to force Johnson is innocent. But I've also always been open. If somebody can show me evidence that points to him, I will be open to seeing it. If somebody wants to present another theory about what happened, I want to hear about it. But, you know, my phone's not ringing.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right to the point of what are these other theories? That was something that I didn't get into on my episode. I'm, you know, there wasn't a ton of deep dive into that on Ear Witness, but I'm just kind of curious. You know, obviously there's this interest in convicting someone, especially, like you said, this is a cop who was murdered who, you know, had close ties to other folks on the force.

[Beth Shelburne]

So this was important to people to.

[Maggie Freeling]

Find somebody that they could say, you know, this is the person who is responsible. And if it is true, you know, that To Forest is innocent and he's able to be released from prison one day, that still leaves this open question of who is responsible for this murder. So I'm curious if, you know, in your investigation and from your conversations with people, if there were other suspects who you felt like could have been viable leads, and if so, like, why do you think that those people were overlooked?

[Host]

There were four people originally arrested and charged with capital murder. Two of them were eventually released and the charges were dropped. When Yolanda Chambers changed her story another time and said, these guys didn't do it, and one of those men is now dead, and the other one we tried very hard to talk to and he wouldn't engage with us, I can't blame him. If I was charged with a murder and the charges got dropped, I wouldn't talk to a reporter about it.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, I don't really go into this on my episode, these other two people who were implicated and then initially charged and then it was dropped. We mostly talk about, obviously, DeForest and Rodriguez since the trials, their trials actually went through. Can you Give a little bit more background on that. Were these folks that Yolanda had also like, made a part of her original story? And who are they? Were they at the club that night? What was their story?

[Host]

So, yes, they were also implicated by Yolanda Chambers, the 15 year old informant that, you know, changed her story over and over again with police. Not in her original story. I mean, every time she spoke to police, her story changed. So at one point she implicated them. Then she said later, no, they didn't do it. She did the same thing with Taforest and Ardregas. You know, she ended up recanting everything, which we cover in the podcast and telling a judge on the stand that she made it all up because of pressure from police. But these other two guys, Omar Berry and Quintess Wilson, they were also young black men that lived in Birmingham. They sort of ran in similar social circles as Taforest and our Dragis, but they weren't like real tight friends. They also went to the same clubs that all these young people went to at the time. And I think had met Yolanda and some of her friends in passing at one of these clubs. The Jaguar was the club that she met Ardregas and Taforist at. And that's not where our Dragis and Taforest were the night of the murder. They were at T's place. But I think she had met at least Quintess Wilson at the Jaguar. Quintess Wilson has since been shot and killed in a drug dealer. And then the other man, Mr. Berry, he lives in Birmingham and, you know, works a regular job and has a regular life. And we really wanted to talk to him about his experience. I actually don't think that he had anything to do with it. I think he was swept up just like Taforos and Rodriguez. But, you know, he didn't want to talk to us and really has sort of just lived a private life since this happened. So I don't think that those two men, there was any more or stronger evidence on them that there was on Taforis and Rodriguez. I think that rather than the right suspects being overlooked, I think it was more like they were just totally missed or ignored by police. I think, like you said, they felt so much pressure to make an arrest in this investigation and to bring it to a conclusion. The lead detective, Tony Richardson, who you hear from a lot in the podcast, told us as much. You know, he said it was a rushed investigation. He regrets feeling all that pressure and moving like a freight train is what he called it. And I think that when you have a very emotional investigation like this was this was someone they knew that was shot and killed on the job. And when you have all of this pressure coming down from politicians, from the elected sheriff, from the law enforcement community, it really can be the perfect storm for tunnel vision to develop. And so I think once they had a theory that was provided by Yolanda Chambers, this 15 year old informant, they stuck with it at the expense of every other possible lead and suspect.

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[Maggie Freeling]

Kind of going back to these two other men who were originally charged. You said, you know, you don't feel like there was like any stronger evidence to sort of implicate them, but those charges were dropped against them. You want to change her story lots of times, right? To implicate sometimes our Dragis or to sometimes implicate divorce and then these other two. You think it was just the story that she happened to be on at the time that the charges were filed or.

[Host]

It's hard to say because there wasn't a very clear explanation in the investigative record on what happened. There were like one or two mentions in the archival media that charges were dropped because the witness recanted. But as far as why that seemed to matter so much to detectives at the time that they would drop the charges but let the charges against Taforest and Ardregas stick, I don't know. It wasn't really reflected in the record what their thinking was. And Tony Richardson couldn't really say.

[Maggie Freeling]

Wow, that's super interesting. I think another report that stuck out to me in listening to ear witness was that multiple folks had described a light colored sedan that had left the crime scene, which didn't actually end up matching our Dragis car, any car that we knew that either of them had. How do you interpret that evidence? Like, is there any leads as to whose car that might have been and has that ever been kind of revisited by investigators?

[Host]

I don't think it's been revisited, unfortunately, but I interpret it as maybe the most glaring example of a missed lead that we found in the investigative file. I mean, if you think about it, the description of this vehicle came from two separate witnesses that were in different parts of the hotel. These people didn't even know each other. They both heard gunshots and went to their window and looked out their window from different vantage points and saw this vehicle, vehicle driving away with the headlights off. And it was such a specific description that they gave a light copper or gold sedan with a burgundy vinyl top. I mean, that is really specific.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right.

[Host]

And police never found the car. Tony Richardson, when he appeared in front of the grand jury, was asked about this description and said he didn't think the car existed. And they went on a wild goose chase looking for that car and it didn't exist. But the truth is that is the only consistent description of a getaway car that was given by witnesses. And I think that someone shot Deputy Hardy, got into that sedan with the burgundy vinyl top and got away with murder.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know the detail about the burgundy Top that's so specific that it feels like that's the one car. There couldn't have been another car that you happen to have seen that matched that description.

[Host]

So there were about six vehicles described on the original BOLO that police put out, but they were so generic. They were like, oh, I think I saw a white car drive off, or, you know, I caught the tail lights of a car that looked like it was green. These two men actually saw the car leaving the parking lot, making a turn, and then getting on the highway. So they watched it for a little while. In fact, both of them saw a single person get into the car.

[Maggie Freeling]

Oh, interesting.

[Host]

Yeah. And, you know, I think that's as close as we can get to somebody who actually witnessed the killer leaving.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right, right. And so obviously, a lot of the investigators kind of turning their attention to Rodriguez and DeForest really comes from 15 year old Yolanda Chambers claims that implicated them in this murder. But it would ultimately be the testimony of a different person, a woman named Violet Ellison, that proved really pivotal to. To forest conviction. In particular, Violet had claimed that she had overheard a phone conversation where DeForest was allegedly admitting that he had killed Deputy Bill Hardy. But your reporting uncovered a ton of issues with Violet's credibility. And some of that was things that I wasn't able to get into as much on true crime. And one particularly shocking detail for me was just what you discovered when you spoke with some of Violet Ellison's family members. Can you share what you uncovered?

[Host]

Yeah. And we, you know, typically, and I say this in the podcast, I don't make it a practice to go investigate private people and like, you know, put their business out on the street. But this is a death penalty case where the entire case is predicated on this one witness and what she claims she heard, where there's no way to even verify. There's no recording of this call, no way to verify that it even happened. So we did seek out character witnesses, you know, people that know her, people in her community, people who have worked with her and family members. And it turns out she is estranged from many people in her family, including her grandchildren. And when we tracked them down, they told us separately similar stories and impressions of their grandmother, that she's not a trustworthy person, that she had lied to police in the past, oftentimes to protect her son, who has a long criminal history. But also they characterized her as somebody who just is a busybody, inserts herself into other people's business, and is someone who is really motivated strictly by money and in this case, there was a sizable reward, and they think that she was after it. And we know that the state cut her a check for $5,000 after she testified and DeForest was convicted.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And I definitely recommend anybody who is interested in this case to go listen to ear witness. And I think it's especially compelling to hear directly from, you know, her family members kind of speaking to some of this. And you're really able to deep dive this over the course of an episode. It's definitely worth listening to.

[Host]

And to be clear, we really didn't know what we were going to get when we started tracking down her family members.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right.

[Host]

We had some inklings with some people that spoke to us just on background that there was a lot of discord in her family. But we drove to Georgia because we had addresses for her grandchildren and just did like a unannounced knock, and they were happy to speak with us. They actually had heard of this case when it got media attention in 2019, when Taforest went back to court and this secret reward payment to Violet Ellison was revealed in court. And so that made the news. And their grandmother's name was in the news, and this was the first that they knew of it. And they were horrified.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And I think just hearing you literally kind of like drive up, go knock on the door, it's very shocking just to kind of see, you know, what they were willing to share. You know, it's not like you had built rapport with these particular people over a period of time. And so I think that's pretty telling as well, that you have them sort of willing to give this information about their family member. But that wasn't the only thing that you reveal on your witness that you had kind of uncovered. During your reporting on Violet Ellison, you also discovered that this wasn't the only court case where she claimed to have pivotal information that investigators wanted. Can you kind of speak to that a bit more?

[Host]

Yeah. We were doing searches in Alabama's online court records and happened upon a different way to use this very clunky pull down menu and found four other criminal cases where Violet Ellison was listed as a state's witness. So there was a paper trail connected to these four cases. She presented herself to police, from what we could tell in records, as someone who had information. And in one of them, she testified. And the wild thing was, this case happened the same year of Taforus Johnson's trial in the same courthouse. But nobody that was representing him knew that the state star witness against him was also Testifying in other felony cases that year. This was a robbery that happened across the street from Ms. Ellison's house. She testified and identified a woman who was being charged as one of the people involved and claimed that she could see her from the window of her house. And she identified her in court under oath, saying, I know she was there. It turns out the woman's attorneys were able to convince the jury that there was no way Ms. Ellison could see the people that were committing the robbery because there were trees obstructing the view from the windows of her house. And so the jury ultimately did not believe Violet Ellison in this case. And the woman that was charged in this robbery was acquitted. She was found not guilty. But finding these cases and her name as a state's witness seems to support this notion that her grandchildren told us that there is a pattern of her inserting herself into cases and going to police, they believe, trying to get preferential treatment for her son, who has a long criminal history.

[Maggie Freeling]

Mm. Yeah. And I think it's just kind of hard to believe that anyone would be privy to so much pivotal information on so many cases within, you know, a short timeframe. You mentioned how she might have been motivated by trying to help out her son. Did she receive any kind of rewards in any of these other cases, or was it just solely in the case against DeForest?

[Host]

We could only uncover evidence of a reward in the case against DeForest. But you have to remember, rewards, cash rewards paid out to witnesses in cases are not the norm. You know, oftentimes there's a crime Stoppers reward that will be offered if somebody's arrested, But a cash reward paid by the state upon conviction is kind of unusual. And so, you know, it wasn't really surprising that we didn't find any other rewards. We did find other secret reward payments made to witnesses in other cases around this same time, authorized out of the same DA's office. And we cover that in the podcast, but none to Violet Ellison that we could find.

[Maggie Freeling]

And, you know, obviously, this is a case with very real stakes. Right. There's a man who is still on death row to this day, and for him, it's life and death. And that's obviously very important as well to all his family and loved ones who, you know, have been living with him on the inside for all these years. And this is something you talk about in ear witness as well. But DeForest kids have been very strong advocates for his release. Can you share a little bit more about the work that they're doing and how they've kind of managed to maintain hope that one day their father will get out.

[Host]

Yeah, they're such an incredible family. And, you know, it's not just his kids. It's also his mom, Donna. He has all these aunts and uncles and cousins that he's in contact with. You know, we'll send him letters and talk to him on the phone and occasionally visit him at Holman Prison. But his five kids are so dedicated to him and to advocating for him. They show up at all the events. Many of them are doing interviews with the media, and two of them are now posting regularly on social media, Instagram and TikTok. His daughter, Muffin, who's a teacher, and his son, Robbie. They both have very active social media channels, not just advocating for their father's innocence, but really just talking about him as a person, who he is, what they love about him, how they stay in contact. Their stories have been amplified by celebrities like Kim Kardashian. So it's been really great to see their stories and their message about their father reach new people since the podcast came out. They have incredibly intimate relationships with him, and they all stay positive and strong, I think, because Taforest is that way. And so, you know, it's just they are such an incredibly loving and hopeful family that have great faith that the truth will prevail. And it has been such a privilege to get to know all of them and to kind of walk alongside them and be witness to not just the ordeal that they've gone through, but how they've really lifted each other up. It's really been incredible to see.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. And that's something that obviously comes with the territory of doing any kind of deep dive reporting that you did on Ear Witness. You're really having to get in there, get to form these relationships with people. And I think that that's something that is difficult. Right, because you're also navigating this line between being an objective journalist, of course, and the supporting their fight for. Just how is that process for you?

[Host]

Well, I mentioned I didn't come to this story like automatically believing he was innocent. I certainly thought it was possible because I had covered another death row exoneration in Alabama. Anthony Ray Hinton, who was on Alabama's death row for 30 years for a crime he didn't commit until he was eventually released in 2015 when the evidence fell apart. And the state still refuses to compensate him or to admit that he was wrongfully convicted, which says a lot, especially considering that the evidence fell apart. I don't know what they're basing their strong opinions on since there's no evidence. But, you know, I think that my belief in Tafora's innocence is based on the facts and what I've discovered through my own reporting and investigating. And I really felt an ethical obligation to take a position in this and to be completely transparent about that. At the same time, I am a journalist, and so I have always been open to hearing everyone's opinions on this and any other theories, including one that could implicate Taforest. And, you know, it's just not there. No one is running to the microphone or picking up the phone to call me with those stories because they don't exist. So it hasn't really been a hard call. I've never taken a position on somebody's guilt or innocence in any story that I've covered. And I've been a journalist for 25 years, but I really felt like we gotta stand on the side of truth here. And until I see something new that tells me otherwise, this man didn't do it. And being a platform for his family is the right thing to do.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense. And I think it's difficult across true crime media in order to remain always objective and therefore never take a side. But sometimes objectivity means taking a side too, if the facts are, you know, pointing in a certain direction. So I think that's really great, especially in a case where the stakes are literally life and death. You know, that's a painful reality for him and his family members. And there's a very clear action here, which is that hopefully he will be exonerated. So I think that's great that you were able to kind of take that stand throughout your witness.

[Host]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Host]

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[Maggie Freeling]

I think what listeners I'm sure are wondering too, is just where does this case stand today? What do you kind of see as the next steps for him and his fight for justice? Obviously put out this great series, but he's still incarcerated. What is next for him?

[Host]

I know so many listeners have said, like, what's the problem? Why Is he still there? What is it gonna take? I think that, you know, it's extraordinary that the original prosecutor supports a new trial. And the current elected district attorney in Jefferson county has actually filed in court a call for a new trial. He first did it in 2020, and then last year, he renewed his call for a new trial, filing a much more detailed report on the many reasons that he has taken this unusual step, how he arrived to that position, what he did to get there. You know, it's been four years since he first came out and called for a new trial. And unfortunately, the Attorney General in Alabama represents the state in this case, in all Capitol cases. And he is taking the position that when an elected DA conducts a conviction integrity review and finds the foundation of the conviction has disintegrated, that's what the DA wrote in his latest filing about this case. The AG is basically arguing the court's hands are tied. There's nothing that can be done. We have to go forward with the execution anyway. So he's still seeking Taforist's execution. That's a really extraordinary thing if you think about it. An extraordinary position to take that this elected DA's conviction integrity review that finds the foundation of the conviction has disintegrated. Doesn't matter.

[Maggie Freeling]

So what is the legal grounds for them saying that their hands are tied? Are they just saying that we never overturn any conviction, or.

[Host]

I would love to see any conviction that the Alabama's attorney General has overturned. The arguments are fairly procedural. You know, this is procedurally barred. This isn't a legitimate legal argument. It's essentially discrediting the word of this elected DA and his conviction integrity review and the word of the original prosecutor. I mean, if that doesn't count for something, what does? But the attorney General is arguing that it doesn't, that it doesn't count, that it's not evidence, that it's a subjective opinion. And, you know, this is kind of where the case stands right now, this extraordinary moment where you have one person in power who's an elected da, who's saying this man's got to have a new trial, and another person in power who's representing the state saying, no, this man's got to be executed, and a judge in state court is going to have to decide what to do and whether or not to accept this position from the Attorney general, that there's really nothing that the courts can do at this point.

[Maggie Freeling]

And is there going to be a hearing on that soon where a judge would decide on that issue?

[Host]

So Taforist attorneys have asked for a hearing that is like, you know, currently being litigated. The state has filed an answer and then they'll file something else. You know how that goes. The judge has not said yet. She has not set a hearing and has not said that there will be an upcoming hearing. So that really remains to be seen.

[Maggie Freeling]

Okay, you know, just in general, what are the kind of things. I mean, we always share some action items at the end of our main episode, and we did that in this case kind of also directed towards Muffin and the work that she's doing online to advocate. But what kind of things have you heard and seen and what kinds of things were you directing ear witness listeners to do? You know, because obviously it feels like you want to do something when you hear a story like this, but obviously there's also a legal process that's unfolding and, you know, you don't want to do anything that could potentially harm that process. So what do you encourage folks to do?

[Host]

I have really left the advocacy part up to Greater Birmingham Ministries, which is an organization here in Birmingham that has kind of taken that lead role in deciding what is going to most benefit to forest in the spot that he's in legally and personally. And they have a website set up, they have a listserv that people can sign up for. There are events and they send emails out to people that sign up on the listserv about events. There was a prayer vigil and walk that was surrounding the unveiling of a billboard here in Birmingham a couple months ago. So there's things like that people really want to do more. And so I wish that there was more that I could offer them. But he's got very good lawyers and a legal team on his side. It's just frustrating, I think, for those of us who aren't lawyers. I mean, it's frustrating for his legal team, from what I can tell. But I think for those of us that don't sort of know all the ins and outs of how this post conviction litigation works, it just seems ridiculous. It's like people are like, can we write letters? Can we go do a demonstration outside the prison? And, you know, I just tell them to go to the Greater Birmingham Ministries website and that's really all I can offer. I do go to these events and do a lot of speaking about his case just to raise awareness about it, but it's frustrating. That's why we called the final episode of the series In Bondage to the Law, because it feels that way. That we have this structure that justice is supposed to happen inside, but, you know, oftentimes it falls short, and it certainly has in this case. And so we just have a long way to go in our criminal justice system. And as evidenced by this man still sitting on death row 25 years later. And almost everybody who has looked at this case outside the Attorney General's office thinks he didn't do it.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right. And I think just in general, too, for folks to be able to go listen, obviously to the true crime episode, listen to ear witness, sending that to family and friends, starting conversations about it, you know, at least to raise the awareness of this case. I think a lot of times these sorts of stories are happening all over the country, and they kind of fly under the radar because, you know, there's not as much attention paid to folks once they're incarcerated or once the gavel falls and a conviction is set and a sentence goes through. So I think to raise some visibility for this case is also super important thing that today's listeners could participate in. You spent so many years working and reporting on deforest case, but you're a journalist with a ton of experience. You've reported on many other cases in Alabama. What has all of that experience taught you about systemic issues in the justice system and what changes you feel are the most urgent?

[Host]

Yeah, I mean, so many changes are needed. It's hard to know where to start outside individual injustices like this one. I think we really have a human rights crisis in our jails and prisons right now, not just in Alabama, but all over the United States. But Alabama is particularly bad, maybe the worst. We have just incarcerated far too many people for too long. And I think as a nation, we have not fully admitted that. You know, we really have to rethink the lengths of sentences and try to get in line with the rest of the civilized world. You know, the rest of the world doesn't send people to prison with terminal sentences. They don't sentence children to life without parole. You know, it's just insane the amount of time that people are getting still in courts across the United States. And so I think we have to really rethink what all this is for. And instead of just being comfortable reforming policies that affect people convicted of nonviolent offenses or drug offenses, we really need to think of reforming the system for everybody. I mean, not just somebody who's in for drug possession, but somebody who's committed murder. Everybody is worthy of redemption. Everybody's worthy of second chances, no matter what they did. And everybody is certainly Entitled to be treated like a human being with dignity and respect. And we're not doing that.

[Maggie Freeling]

Definitely. It's something that I feel like obviously sticks out to me across the cases that we've covered on truer crime, the mass incarceration of so many people. And then also, I do like how you point out it's not just about drug offenses or offenses where we feel like it's easier to have empathy for folks. It's like, what does a reimagined system look like where we. We take the most heinous crimes that someone may have actually committed and consider, how do we actually rehabilitate those people or allow them an opportunity at a second chance?

[Host]

And a lot of people, if you start talking about this, they will say, oh, well, you don't want to hold people accountable. You want people to just get away with these things. We're not holding people accountable right now. We're abusing them. We are putting them in a harm machine. And it's not just harming incarcerated people. It's harming every person in that prison. I talked to correctional officers, you know, prison nurses, social workers, anybody who's going in and out of the prison. They're all traumatized. It's awful. It is terrible the way we are treating people. And these environments are criminal in and of themselves. I mean, there's drugs throughout the system. It's just a system and collapse. It can't be supported. And we need to just admit that. I think that this is a failed enterprise. We need to start over. We've got to reimagine this instead of just expanding it, because expanding it is what we've done the last 30 years and look where we are.

[Maggie Freeling]

It makes me think of a quote from an activist who I really admire. Her name is Mariame Kaba. And she said once, like, nobody enters violence for the first time having committed it. And I think about that in relation to US Prisons, which, as you mentioned, are traumatizing environments for everyone involved. And I just imagine most people, the majority, the large majority of people who enter prison will one day exit prison. Right? So in those instances, you know, if they have these extremely long sentences where the environment is so traumatizing, what does that mean for recidivism rates for the crimes that they might commit once they return, especially if they're not set up for success, as, you know, most folks aren't in many states. And so, you know, just kind of thinking about that whole picture, and it's not about, like you said, a lack of accountability, but what is the world we want to live in. And what's a system that maybe could get us a little bit closer to that?

[Host]

Yeah, and I just fail to see how putting people in a system awash in drugs and weapons is getting justice for victims. I mean, victims. What they want, studies show, is that whoever harmed them will not harm someone again. And if you put somebody in that kind of environment, you know, it's not like they're gonna be less likely to harm. You know, if they're already drug addicted and then you send them into a prison system that's full of drugs, they're gonna keep using and probably start using some things they weren't using on the street. You know, they. Extortion is a huge problem in the Alabama prison system where people are getting hooked on drugs, they're getting preyed upon as soon as they come into the system, and then their families will start getting extorted from people inside the prison calling and demanding them to send money or they will kill their loved one. And it's just epidemic. That doesn't help victims. That's not justice. I don't buy into any of that. It's what we are doing is not accountability, and we have to be accountable for that.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right, Right, definitely. And, you know, all of this knowledge that you kind of have shared with us, especially about what should the system look like, what are the issues in our current system, were all things that you've gained through, you know, reporting for many years on all these different types of cases, and particularly in Alabama. And one thing I really admire about your reporting is just how you make complex information really accessible to the everyday person. So that's something I loved about ear witness as well as you could tell this really important story in a format that, you know, makes sense to people and they can understand the nuances of this case. So how can folks follow you and find you and, like, hear the rest? Your other reporting and other cases that you're kind of covering, where should they go?

[Host]

I appreciate you asking. I have a substack called moth to flame, and I just report at the intersection of justice and injustice in Alabama. So I cover everything from what I've mentioned, the crisis in our prison system to mental health care, to, you know, the habitual offender law in Alabama, our three strikes law that is the most draconian in the nation. I've done extensive reporting on that. And then I also publish in all kinds of places. So you can google my name or I have a landing page, bethshulburn.com, where I post stuff when I remember to. I'm kind of all over the place. But yeah, that's my beat. Alabama criminal justice. So there's no shortage of stories, unfortunately.

[Maggie Freeling]

I really appreciate you coming on today and sharing a little bit more insight into your process with your witness and some of these other, you know, you know, just details of this case that we didn't get to go into in the true or crime episode. You know, we'll of course hope that all of you who are listening will go take a listen, share on your social media and write a review for your witness as well. Kind of support that story so it gets out there to more folks. But thanks so much, Beth. We really appreciate it.

[Host]

Thank you for having me.

[Beth Shelburne]

Of course. That's it for today's bonus episode. Huge thanks to Beth for coming on and for all the work she's done on Ear Witness. If you haven't listened to it yet, you need to. It's a masterclass in investigative reporting and one of the most compelling true crime podcasts out there. If you want to stay updated on Tafora's case, please make sure you check out his [e-mail] and as always, you can keep up with true crime on Instagram and xruercrimepod. And you can find me on Instagram and TikTok, Alicia Stanton, or through my weekly newsletter, Sincerely Celicia, at SincerelyCelesia.substack.com thanks for listening. If you're looking for a true crime podcast that goes beyond the headlines, let me introduce you to 1 minute remaining stories from the Inmates. Host Jack Lawrence takes you inside the lives of men and women incarcerated across the United States States, sharing their stories in their own words. From arson to drug dealing to murder, these interviews reveal the human side of cases that are so often reduced to a single verdict. Jack carefully lays out the evidence, the trials, and the convictions. But here's the twist. This podcast isn't about proving guilt or innocence. It's about giving these folks a chance to tell their version of events, whether they claim innocence, admit to their crimes, or reflect on the harsh realities of the system that convicted them. With over 250 episodes and new ones released twice a week, one minute remaining invites you to listen, reflect, and form your own perspective on these complex stories. Find One Minute Remaining. Wherever you get your podcasts.