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- [00:00]
Lycia Stanton
Foreign.
- [00:02]
Tenderfoot TV Host
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- [02:02]
Olivia Heusingfeld
The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of.
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Tenderfoot TV Host
Girls came forward with a story.
- [02:15]
Olivia Heusingfeld
America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app app podcasts or wherever you get.
- [02:32]
Tenderfoot TV Host
Your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free.
- [02:35]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. Hi friends, it's Lycia. We just wrapped our three part series on the Menendez brothers and before we move on, I wanted to take a moment to go off the record with you, because honestly, this case really surprised me. I thought that I knew it going into it. Two rich kids, Beverly Hills, the sensational trial that turned into this kind of national soap opera. But once I really started watching the original courtroom footage, I realized that this story was a lot different than I had heard about it previously. What was being said on the stand, how the media covered it, the cruelty that we were normalizing without even noticing it all really surprised me. And honestly, it ended up being one of the most difficult stories that I've ever put together. Not just because of the subject matter, but because the deeper that I was going, the more that I was realizing that there was a lot that still needed to be said. So I'm back today with my co producer, Olivia Heusingfeld, and we're going to be talking a little bit about the process of making the episodes. What changed as we worked on the series, what's still unfolding in the case right now, and what this story about the Menendez brothers can teach us today, more than 30 years later. So let's get into it. Olivia, where do you think we should start?
- [04:02]
Lycia Stanton
Hi, everyone. I'm really excited to jump into this conversation with you. Celicia. I actually want to start with a question that I've asked before on these behind the scenes episodes, which is pretty simple. Why this case? And it's actually a question we get asked a lot on the stories we tell. But it does feel especially relevant when it comes to a story like the Menendez brothers, which is a case that has tons and tons of coverage. And even like, you know, in the last year or two, there's like the massive Netflix documentary, there's the Ryan Murphy dramatized series. It's really been at the forefront of a lot of public discourse, which also means it's been covered a lot. And so I do think this question of, like, why this case when the media landscape is already saturated with so many people talking about it, is one that is worth engaging in.
- [04:50]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, I think a lot about how for truer crime, I'm always wanting to tell stories that are both well known and stories that are undercovered that really fits kind of into what our mission is, which is to tell all true crime stories through this more human lens. And I've always been interested in trying to tackle these stories that capture our collective attention, because I think that anytime that happens, it says something about us as a culture. Because what is the type of society that becomes fixated on a story like this and why? And that's just a question that's always interesting to me. And like you said, you know, obviously this case has been everywhere. There was the Ryan Murphy dramatization as a part of the monster franchise. I actually watched that Netflix documentary that they put out really close to the Ryan Murphy series, too. And then prior to those two coming out, there was also just kind of a resurgence of attention on this case when a lot of younger folks, especially Gen Z, were really reexamining the case on TikTok and YouTube and things like that. And so I think that whenever you have, like, a lot of conversation happening, it's a really good opportunity to say, okay, why now? What does it say about our current moment that this case is kind of back in the limelight? And one other thing I've been thinking about is I've just been reading a lot of James Baldwin lately. And this is actually for those of you who listen to the series that we did on Keith. Lamar was really inspired by my conversations with Keith. So definitely check out that series if you haven't listened to it yet. Keith lamar and the LucasFilt riot. We had five parts on that case. But Keith really always is like, you need to read James Baldwin. You need to read James Baldwin. So I finally have started diving into his work, and one thing that's really stood out to me about just kind of a theme that I've noticed over and over again is this idea that he believes that the artist's role is. Is to tell the truth about the world. And there's this one quote where he says, a society must assume it is stable, but the artist must know and let us know that there is nothing stable under heaven. Meaning that, you know, we kind of move along as a society. We think everything is good and dandy. It's the artist's job, though, to know that there's something going on here. There's things worth talking about here. There's things worth exposing here. And so I really do see that as a part of my obligation in my, like, life's mission of being somebody who likes to share their thoughts. A writer, you know, an artist. And kind of this broader sense. I see it as a part of my mission to try to reveal the truth about things as I see it.
- [07:22]
Lycia Stanton
Yeah, I like what you're saying about kind of this, like, it's sort of two things, right? It's both. This story has been told so much. Is there something that we're missing? Is there something that hasn't been told yet? Or is the way that it is being Told over and over, kind of guided by, you know, like in connection to the James Baldwin quote, something that is, like, stable and, oh, these are just facts and it's been told correctly all of these times. And then there's sort of the second half, which you're also hitting on, which is this deeper kind of almost like meta question of, like, these stories that are told over and over and over, which we've done a couple of them at this point. You know, there's the Menendez brothers, we've done Manson, we've done Jonestown. There's a second question of why are we telling these stories over and over and what can we learn from that in terms of how we tell stories in general? What are the issues that people are relating to and facing? And I think that kind of like both those things are what is being missed when these stories are told over and over. And also, why are we telling these stories over and over is something that you and I have had conversations about when we're doing these high profile cases.
- [08:32]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, definitely. And I felt like in the past maybe I don't want to add to the noise of a case. Like, if a case is getting so much attention, why would you sort of like, add something there when there are so many stories that do need to be told that don't get talked about? And I think what's key is trying to not add to the noise, but trying to add something distinct, something unique, a different perspective, a way to capture the moment that you're in that feels novel. And so, you know, nothing is original in 2025, so it's kind of a hard thing to do. But I think that that's. That's the edge that we're always up against when we're trying to create a story is like, how can we make this new and fresh and different and, like, impactful for people?
- [09:10]
Lycia Stanton
Yeah. Which I think a lot of that just comes down to perspective. Right. Like, you know, I've heard the idea with, like, artists or storytelling of, like, everyone's telling the same couple of stories, but how are you gonna tell it different? You know, And I think that with Truer Crime, it's a perspective driven show, and obviously there's like, some stories that you're gonna have more of your own perspective to bring that are probably gonna be better to do. But I do think that depending on who's telling something or engaging with something, generally, it's gonna kind of automatically change what can be brought to it and taken away from it.
- [09:44]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, for sure.
- [09:46]
Lycia Stanton
And the season we made a shift in our storytelling format. Season one and two, we told every case we told from start to finish in one episode. Sometimes there were a couple times we had two parters, but for the most part, it was one episode. And in season three, we made a switch, which was, you know, to make it more sustainable as well as to change the way that we're engaging with these cases. And what that switch has been is we're now telling these cases over the course of a month, and depending on the story, sometimes that means two part episodes, sometimes that means three parts, or in the case of Keith Lamar, even four. And this month with Menendez Brothers, we did three parts. But what listeners don't know is we originally planned this to be a two parter, and it wasn't actually until midway through the writing process that we change it to three parts. And it was, you know, you messaged me saying that you kind of felt like the story would be better served having a full three parts dedicated to it. So I was wondering, could you, like, share a little bit more about that change and, like, why did you start conceptualizing this story as two parts, you know, at the beginning? And. And then what led you to a decision to expand it to three full parts?
- [10:57]
Olivia Heusingfeld
All of our cases in this new format, this new season, start from a two part plan. The expectation is that this case is going to have two parts, and then that's kind of the baseline that we're working off of. From there, we only expand to 3, 4 parts more if the story requires it. I never want to be in a situation where I feel like, you know, we're wasting the listeners time. I'm repeating myself over and over again. I feel like, you know, as a podcast listener, consumer fan myself, you know, there's nothing more frustrating than feeling like, okay, you split this into 8 million different pieces, when maybe it could have been told in a more succinct and impactful way. So I'm always trying to be conscious of that, but kind of to take people behind the scenes of the process of, like, creating an episode a bit after we know what a case is going to be, the process is, is very similar from case to case. So there'll be some light research that I'll do just to kind of get my arms around the story, to kind of understand just the general themes that I might want to tackle. And then from there, after I. I'm kind of taking notes as I'm doing all that lighter research, just sort of thinking, what do I think about this? What does this bring up for me emotionally as well as, like, obviously kind of taking note of those facts. What exactly happened and what was the timeline and getting the people in it straight. And so from there, I developed what we call a theme statement. But really, this is. You can kind of think of it like a mission of the case or a mission of the episodes, which is just, like, what is the message I want to get across, the thing that I feel like it's important for listeners to take away, because then when we're actually crafting the episodes, everything is in service of that goal. How can we accomplish that mission of pushing forward this particular perspective? And that's not to say I want to tell people, like, what to think about a case, but it's like, I want to have put thought into, like, where people are thinking about the case, like, what questions they're starting to consider about these themes in their own life.
- [12:53]
Lycia Stanton
Yeah, I do think that's a key distinction of, like, with these theme statements is it's not distinctly prescriptive. It is intended, like, and, you know, you phrase them very intentionally to be more inciting thought and provocative of, like, what are the questions that we're asking throughout the episode? Cause we don't often have answers. It's more about what are we pointing towards and wondering about, which is also what we always want listeners to take away.
- [13:19]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, the theme statements are, like, sometimes they'll have statements in them, but there's usually quite a few questions in them. And for people who've been listening to the show for a while, we end a lot of, like, the beginning parts, like, the sort of hooks of the episodes with questions before we play the theme song. So it's like that question kind of gives you a little bit of insight as to what's our mission gonna be in this episode. Like, what's the question? That is the through line that we'll be exploring. So we developed that theme statement, the mission of the episodes, and then from there, I put together a sort of broad outline, just kind of more general outline of the two arcs of the two episodes. Or by that point, I often know, okay, maybe it actually should be three episodes. In this case. With the Menendez brothers, I thought it was gonna be two. I arced out two episodes, and then I kind of assigned different sections of those episodes to myself and then to Olivia, and. And then from there, we kind of do our detailed outline where we go and we do all that deep research of really looking into all of the specifics about the sections, which we are each covering. So for the Menendez brothers, we followed that whole process exactly. Everything was kind of going smoothly. Each of us had our kind of assignments. And one of the things that I was going to be covering was that first trial. And so I started diving into the trial a little bit more, and I specifically started looking for archival. So that's another thing, when we're making true crime episodes is that true crime in general is a. Is a show that's really driven by, like, my narration. It's a lot of writing, but occasionally we will have archival news audio, more interview audio, things like that. So we like to try to do that because it adds texture and really brings you into a story. And sometimes it's just better to hear from the people who were most directly impacted, who lived the stories themselves, than it is for you to hear me describe it. And so I was like, okay, obviously, this is a case that's been covered a ton. There's gonna be a lot of archival to choose from. And so I was like, I'm covering this first trial. I should look at some of the trial footage. If you remember, from the episodes, we talk about how the Menendez brothers trial was the first trial televised on Court tv. So that's a really big deal because it means that we have access to all of the trial testimony on YouTube.
- [15:36]
Lycia Stanton
Now.
- [15:36]
Olivia Heusingfeld
That's a lot more common. Obviously, not every case is televised, but there's been so many big cases that have been televised since then. But at the time that this happened, it was super novel. And so I was like, all right, let me listen to the brothers while they're on the stand. Let me hear how they are describing, you know, what they went through, and maybe we can pull some of this to put in the episode. As I started doing this, I found it immediately overwhelming. Their testimony, both of their testimony, was extremely emotional. It was really horrific. Just the details of the abuse that they were talking about that they had experienced at the hands of their father and a little bit at the hands of their mother was just really, really, really hard to digest. And honestly, I didn't feel like the coverage I had seen to that point of this case had, of course, gone into that level of detail, because nobody can include hours and hours and hours of trial footage in, like, a single Netflix documentary or whatever it might be. And so I was learning so many things that I just didn't know from my previous research. And to me, I realized that there's just no way that I was going to be able to responsibly summarize this trial in like 10, 15 minutes. I had messaged you and I was kind of like, wow, this is like a lot. Like, I want to be very thoughtful about how we are pulling this together because it can be so easily sensationalized and, like, really voyeuristic. And I just wanted to be a little bit careful about how we were talking about those really sensitive details. And so it started with that of just like, I just want to be sensitive about it. And then very quickly I realized that instead of following my normal approach, which is, okay, I'm going to write all of this narration and then I'll, like, kind of slot in different pieces of archival audio to complement that narration. I realized, like, I needed to take the opposite approach. I really needed to build this story around the archival first find the pieces of audio from their testimonies that were really impactful, that needed to be shared, and then figure out how do I make my narration in between those pieces kind of flow together so that this story is something that is digestible for people, but also, like, fully delivers the impact with which I felt I had when I was watching it on YouTube. So in doing that, in letting the archival audio lead the process, it was just so much that I was like, this really just needs to live in its own episode. So that became episode two, essentially. We expanded out that one maybe 10 minute section to be like a full 40 minute episode.
- [18:10]
Lycia Stanton
It is really interesting whenever we do a case with truer crime. I mean, obviously everything has its own arc and we are intentional with that. But, you know, most cases you have like the investigation, maybe you have some sort of confession or lead up to trial, pre trial, you have a trial and then whatever else. Maybe we're following someone through prison. And often when we tell these stories, the trial section is. Sometimes we do go into it. Sometimes it's. It's very short. Especially in cases where it is a little bit more cut and dry in terms of guilt and innocence. Or some of these trials are very short or things like that. But it is interesting to have a case where the trial is the entire part. And we did do that with Joanne Little, where part one was her killing the prison guard and then the hunt for her, and then part two was the trial. Manson also, we did kind of expand on the trial more. But it is, I think, interesting to like have those cases where we sit in that world. Cause it is. The trial world is very different. And that time sometimes can be very different than other parts of a case or other parts of a story.
- [19:18]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, than the crime Itself, for sure. I think in a lot of true crime media, you get the crime, you'll get maybe the trial. I think what differentiates true crime is we do. We often will do stories where we're gonna touch on the crime, the trial, the after prison, you know, or some cases. It leans more heavily on one of those three dynamics. So I think that that's something, you know, we try to add in this space and that we wanna push the genre for other folks to do something similar. But, yeah, I'm glad you brought up Manson, because actually, that second episode, I think it was a very similar process of, like, let's let the archival lead this process. There was just so much news audio, because even though they didn't have cameras in the courtroom, there was so many cameras at the trial. Like, this was just a huge deal. Everybody wanted to know the next update on this case. And so there was just so much archival. And that was another case where it's like, all right, let's let the archival lead. And really, I think that that helps, especially with these types of stories, to do what we were talking about earlier when it's like, why do we cover cases that are, like, so infamous or have been covered a lot? Well, it's to say something about the culture. Right. And I think the best way to do that often is to lead with. What were we saying? Like, lead with that archival and then kind of analyze it or kind of set it up in a way that we can hear all of that stuff from the past, but with a new lens of the present day.
- [20:40]
Lycia Stanton
Yeah, totally. Which actually is a perfect segue into my next question, which is really wanting to engage with that media landscape during the time of the Menendez brothers trial. You know, we mentioned in the episode that it was televised on Court tv, and it was actually one of the first really popular cases that kind of solidified what the network would become and brought a lot of attention to the network. And it really defined what that station would be as well as what true crime television and just like, televised trials specifically would look like. More broadly, how do you see this trial, the Menendez trial, and, like, the media attitude towards it in connection to our current landscape? You know, 30 years later and now, like, the obsession with true crime as entertainment is everywhere in every type of case. And it isn't just a couple of, like, you know, obviously we still have some big tentpole cases, but there seems to just be, like, a real attention towards true crime broadly in the present day.
- [21:43]
Olivia Heusingfeld
You know, we talk a lot about how I Feel like if you, if you follow like sort of true crime media news, you know, it feels like people are talking about. It's very zeitgeisty to be like, yeah, true crime is so in like, in a way that it's never been before, when really I think that like people have always been fascinated by true crime stories from like true detective magazines back in the day to even just like that kind of adage that everyone knows, like if it bleeds, it leads from like newsrooms and stuff. It's like we are very fascinated by stories about crime. It would be a whole different podcast episode to talk about why that is or what is our fascination culturally with those types of stories. And I think that there's a lot of different things that lead to that. But I do think that with the Menendez brothers and the 90s in general, it really introduced something new to sort of that true crime space, which is the 24 hour news cycle and things like the Menendez trial being televised, I mean, that just adds a whole new dynamic because it allows the people who are like consuming it, watching it to feel like they are a part of it in a way that isn't the same when you're just kind of reading something in a magazine or on the newspaper. And I think that's only been intensified today with where we can just go upload a video to TikTok and potentially reach millions of people. It didn't used to be the case that any random person could have that much reach. Right. The only way that you could reach a critical mass of people would be if you had some sort of traditional media career or background. You know, you were on the news or whatever it might be. You were a politician, you were a community leader. Now any person can be involved in a case. And I think that what you see with the Menendez trial is kind of a first step towards that, because it's not even just that the case or the trial was televised. It's. It's all of the other media that it spawns, right? You have comedians doing sets about it, celebrities mentioning it on their late night show interviews, you know, like fictional television shows making references to the trial and the brothers. So I think that again, that's how you're seeing regular people just kind of starting to like insert themselves into the narrative and it becoming this sort of cultural talking point. And so I think that, you know, once you flip that switch in the 90s, then you kind of explode this whole world. And we're still seeing that today with Maybe it's just TikTok in addition to cable news and newspapers and all of that stuff. So I really do think that this case is kind of a blueprint for what we're seeing with our modern true crime culture.
- [24:17]
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- [24:48]
Olivia Heusingfeld
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Lycia Stanton
It's $15 a month.
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Tenderfoot TV Host
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- [24:57]
Olivia Heusingfeld
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- [25:01]
Lycia Stanton
4.
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Olivia Heusingfeld
I use it. 5. My mom uses it.
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Tenderfoot TV Host
Are you.
- [25:04]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Are you playing me off?
- [25:05]
Lycia Stanton
That's what's happening, right?
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Olivia Heusingfeld
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- [25:50]
Lycia Stanton
Since you're mentioning like this broader entertainment ecosystem that existed at the time of the Menendez trial, I think it'd be really good for us to listen to a segment that was in Part three, which is, you know, when you're describing the sketch SNL did at the time about the Menendez Brothers case.
- [26:13]
Olivia Heusingfeld
In 1993, Saturday Night Live aired a whole parody of the Menendez trial. Cue Court TV music, the logo flashing across the screen. Now cut to a young John Malkovich, badly wigged and playing Lyle Menendez on the standard Menendez? That's correct.
- [26:33]
Lycia Stanton
Then can you tell the court who did murder your parents?
- [26:37]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Our other two brothers, Danny Menendez and Jose Menendez Jr. Fake Lyle bursts into exaggerated sobs. Crossfade to Mike Myers playing a Court TV correspondent.
- [26:51]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Good evening. I'm Greg Jarrett for Court tv. It was a startling day of testimony at the trial of Lyle and Eric Mason Menendez. After several weeks of presenting its case, the defense stunned the courtroom with the revelation that not Only are there two other previously unknown Menendez brothers, Danny and Jose Jr. But that they in fact committed the murder with which Lyle and Eric are charged. Later this afternoon, younger brother Eric joined Lyle on the stand, and in riveting testimony, they spoke of the secret existence of these two previously unknown Menendez brothers and the years of emotional abuse they suffered.
- [27:27]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Back to the courtroom, Lyle and Eric in matching outfits, answering questions in unison.
- [27:33]
Lycia Stanton
Now, is it true your father never allowed your other two brothers, Danny and Jose Jr. Out of the house?
- [27:42]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yes.
- [27:43]
Lycia Stanton
And that he never allowed them to go to school?
- [27:45]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yes.
- [27:46]
Lycia Stanton
Never had them in family pictures or mentioned?
- [27:50]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yes.
- [27:52]
Lycia Stanton
No driver's licenses, no birth certificates, no Social Security cards? My father said Danny and Jose Jr. Didn't deserve to have any official records.
- [28:03]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Of their existence because they were weak.
- [28:08]
Lycia Stanton
And not good tennis players. This SNL sketch has received renewed attention in recent years. And like in the YouTube reupload of the sketch, the comments are actually full of people criticizing it, calling it deeply insensitive and really engaging with a lot of the same critiques that you're highlighting in the True Crime episode. So can you talk a little bit about what it was like first coming across these clips, hearing them for the first time in a 2025 context?
- [28:42]
Olivia Heusingfeld
I think that probably for most people listening now is a bit jarring. And, you know, it feels like, wow, this sort of like cruel behavior must be normalized, right? Because if this is just like what everybody is doing, we play a whole montage after this SNL clip, a whole montage of a ton of different media references to the case at the time. And that's a sampling. There were so many others we could have included. That tells you that this wasn't just, oh, one bad SNL sketch or just kind of one off color comment that one media person made. It was the cultural norm. So I think that that's what kind of is maybe most jarring is just like the accumulation of hearing all of these and being like, oh, this is just the air that people were breathing. But for me, actually, I think there was that one clip of Kathy Griffin that we play during the montage where she says this line about a toothbrush. And that clip probably shocked me the most. I think when I Listened to it. I was just shook.
- [29:43]
Lycia Stanton
Let my boys go.
- [29:44]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Oh, come on.
- [29:44]
Lycia Stanton
They're so adorable. They are too fine to go to prison. Woo. And you know what?
- [29:48]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Lyle's my favorite.
- [29:49]
Lycia Stanton
I'll tell you why. I know he wears a toupee and everything. But you know what? It's not about looks when you're a guy like Lyle. It's just not about that. Get over it. And let's face it, Kitty and Jose had to go. Here's the deal. You stick a toothbrush up your 6 year old kid's ass, he gets to blow you away in the family room. That's the rule.
- [30:07]
Olivia Heusingfeld
I think what's most wild about this is just, I cannot imagine anybody saying something like this today. And it's interesting because, like, you know, at the time that she made the comment, we were probably not quite born just, but like very close to being born. So it's just weird to think that like, in the length of time of our lives, things could change so drastically because it just feels so obviously like not okay to say today. But you know what I think is really revealing about what she said and then also just kind of the other clips as well is that the idea back then that men, young men, boys, children, could be abused by their fathers was kind of an unspeakable thing specifically to, I think young boys. And so turning it into a joke is a kind of way to deflect that reality. And a reality that I feel like makes people uncomfortable. I feel like hearing what happened to the Menendez brothers, their claims of abuse is uncomfortable now in 2025, I think especially that had to have been so in the early 90s. And so humor is a super normal way that we tend to kind of minimize things so that we can like feel comfort with stuff that doesn't feel right to us. And so like, I think that's just where our culture was at that point, that that's how we could deal with something like that. But you know, for as awful as some of these comments were, and for as heartbreaking as some of these clips are, you know, ironically, it's these same clips that really brought the case back into the fore in the last couple of years, because it's a younger generation who's come across them stumbling across like things like the SNL sketch on YouTube and saying like, wait, how was this ever okay? And their curiosity about that, their frustration about that, reopens this conversation, I think is really important, especially because the brothers are still in prison and their case is still ongoing in that you know, they're trying to get out one day. And so I think that it is interesting that for as bad as those things were, as bad as, like, kind of our culture around it was at the time, it is those same things which allow us to hopefully try to correct for some of those things now in 2025.
- [32:13]
Lycia Stanton
And, you know, as you're saying that one thought that comes into my mind is, like, I do think in a lot of ways, we have culturally progressed. I mean, obviously that, like, this SNL sketch was totally fine and great at the time that it first premiered, and now people are deeming it unacceptable. But I also can't help but, like, see the ways that culture now, and even Gen Z, even, you know, younger people that view themselves as, like, separate from the past in terms of, like, being on the right side of history or whatever. Like, we're not immune to these same patterns. And, like, you know, it makes me think of, like, as we're still engaging with true crime stories in the same way that people were engaging with them at the time of the Menendez brothers. There are true crime stories that are becoming the butt of jokes, that are becoming, like, part of the popular consciousness. And the one that really comes to mind for me is the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial from a couple years ago. And, you know, I know at the time, you and I talked about it a lot and just how. And there's been documentaries about it since, and a lot of news articles about kind of untangling the ways that social media really made a joke of this trial and ultimately spread a lot of misinformation where, like, Amber Heard was really painted as an awful person, as the butt of a joke, and in ways that I think if you really look at all of the details of the case, it really simplified what was actually going on. And I don't think that what happened there is so different than what happened to the Menendez brothers. I think sometimes we see things from the past and we're like, oh, that is so clearly awful. I would never do that. But, you know, people at the time felt that way about other things. We're not outside of these cycles. Like, it is something that anybody, any human can participate or fall into these type of patterns of exploitation, of misinformation, of, like, using Huber to cope in a way that, like, ultimately is kind of selfish and disrespectful because you're trying to make yourself comfortable at the expense of someone else's pain.
- [34:20]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, actually. And now that you're saying that too. I always think about how when I talk to people about covering so many different true crime stories, I feel like cases from the 90s always stick out to me because the 90s, I think the reason it sticks out is because you have the birth of the 24 hour news cycle and you just have so much more accessibility to these cases. Like they can. Newscasters can go be on location, be interviewing people all day, where actually sneak peek. For those of you who have listened this far, in a couple months we'll be going into another case that kind of hits at some of these tensions as well. But the result of all of that media scrutiny and attention is that there's just so much more room to say things that are really like, just don't age well. And I feel like what you're saying though, about how it's easy to look back and say that about something like the 90s, people say that all the time. I say that a lot of, I've heard a lot of other true crime media creators say, like cases from the 90s, wow, they were really out of control back then. What are they going to be saying about us in 20, 25, 20 years, 30 years from now about how we are talking about these situations, these cases, these people? Because I think that it's really important for us to try to like, analyze, hey, how are we currently engaging? And this is what we're doing in true crime, right? Is trying to engage in the way that we feel is right. But we, there's no way we're doing everything perfectly correctly. But I think like asking the question, could I be doing something better? Is there something about how I am approaching this that's not gonna age well, that's kind of insensitive, that maybe verges on unethical. Is this important? I think for us to just try to do better in the future?
- [35:58]
Lycia Stanton
I think it requires seeing what people have done in the past as things that people did. Like in, in terms of mistreating cases. Because I think sometimes the like impulse is to distance ourselves because we, we don't want to cause harm. Like nobody wants to cause harm. And so to view like, oh, well, the person who was participating in like you know, making this SNL sketch, they're like, there's something uniquely wrong about them, uniquely messed up about them that would never be me. And I think at the end of the day, like, we all live in the same world that has its biases and it's like preconceived notions of how things are. Like all these dynamics exist. All the time. And like sometimes, you know, as a society we can move forward, but we're still humans, we're still fallible. And it isn't. Oh, there were unique bad actors in the 90s.
- [36:54]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, a lot of the people who are alive in the 90s giving their hot takes about the Menendez brothers case in the 90s are live today. And I think that that just goes to show that, yeah, it's. I don't think we should be like, yeah, wow, this was all SNL's fault. Or this was all insert easy villain, easy target here and just really accept that this is something that happens all the time in our culture and that, you know, it's on all of us to try to create better content in the future and to just be aware that, yeah, we're fallible and there's always new things to learn. Foreign.
- [37:29]
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- [39:08]
Lycia Stanton
Speaking of these stories still being relevant in the case of the Menendez brothers, there are still updates happening. We ended part three with some of the recent updates that had happened to the brothers case. Most notably that in May of this year the brothers had been re sentenced. And as part of the resentencing they now could use time served to be eligible for parole. But at the time that we recorded the episodes, it was like a couple months out from when the episodes were published. So between when we recorded and now, there have been a couple more updates that we want to kind of share and talk about. The first is that at the end of August, both Eric and Lyle both had their own parole hearings. They both had separate hearings and in both cases they were denied parole. So even though they've been re sentenced and were eligible for parole, which was a huge win earlier this year, they will not receive parole and they won't be eligible for parole again for three years. And that actually wasn't the only kind of tough news that the Menendez brothers had received this fall. Because back in early September, a judge made a ruling on a request that the Menendez brothers team had actually submitted all the way back in 2023. And it was a request for a new trial. And what the brothers teams had argued was that there were two new pieces of evidence that had arisen since Erica Miles first trial. And the defense argued that both of these pieces of evidence support the brothers claims of long term abuse by their father. The first piece of evidence was a letter that Eric wrote to his cousin Andy Kano in the late 88 or early 89 from what they can tell. And in this letter Eric hinted at the abuse. So this would be one piece of evidence kind of again dated prior to the trial that would like support that the abuse was ongoing. And then the other piece of evidence that the defense wanted to present was that there are recent allegations from Roy Rosello, a former member of the boy band Menudo, who has come forward and said that he was also sexually abused by Jose Menendez as a teenager. As ABC7 reported, even with this new evidence, the judge just wasn't convinced in his ruling. The court basically said that while the letter and the new abuse allegation might have supported the brother's claims of abuse to them, it doesn't change the fact the murders were premeditated and therefore no new trial was needed. You know, and kind of to support some of that, the DA's office pointed out that Eric and Lyle originally had confessed on tape. And they laid out what the D A would describe as clear planning. And so things like the brothers driving to San Diego to buy the shotguns with fake ID is the brothers setting up an alibi. And all of this kind of supports an argument that like, while the abuse claims are serious in the eyes of the state, they don't excuse what they saw as like a carefully thought out crime. And so ultimately the judge said the evidence, even if we're supporting these claims of long term abuse, it just wasn't strong enough to create reasonable doubt or give the jury even an option for self defense. And all of this was a big blow for the brothers and for their family who've been fighting for their release. With both the parole denied and this request for a new trial also denied, their last hope is actually a clemency request that is currently sitting with Governor Gavin Newsom. And for me, it's been a unique experience to be so immersed in this case and then to have new updates coming in at the same time. And I'm, I'm curious if you remember first hearing some of these updates, whether it's about the parole being denied or about the trial requests being denied and like what your reaction was.
- [42:59]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, and we were kind of following this because we had finished these episodes in the summer and knew that they had a, a parole date coming up. And that parole date actually, I think was pushed out like one or two times. And so we knew we were going to for sure at least do this bonus episode to make sure that folks got updates on what happened. So, you know, I personally, and this is just, you know, I think everyone can have their own opinion on this story. We never on tour crime want to tell people what to think. We just want to like lead you to that thinking so you can form your own opinions. But for me personally, you know, I felt, I guess, kind of sad for them that they weren't granted parole specifically because their family and so many of the people who were like most directly impacted by this case, you know, the family members of, of the brothers, but the family members of, you know, the two victims as well, really supported them getting their parole. And so I think I always struggle a bit in these cases where, you know, just where it's really highlighted that our criminal legal process, our criminal justice process is really disconnected from like the wants of families and victims and victims families. And you know, we've seen that in other cases that we've covered as well. Darlie Roudier, the first case that we covered on truer crime, her whole family wants her released from prison. And so, you know, all the people who knew her, who knew her two sons, her boys who were killed, want her released, believe that she was innocent. And that's something we really explored in that episode, too, this idea of, like, this tension that exists between the wants and needs of victims and the criminal justice process. So I think, in general, I hope they get their next hearing that that goes well. We'll definitely keep you updated as new developments come out. But I think also it just highlights for me that these cases are just always ongoing. Like we were saying before, they're always living. Right? And that's true in these cases where it's like, maybe more obvious, like Darli Rudier, like the Menendez brothers, like Taforis Johnson or Keith Amar, where it's like, okay, there are. There are more updates in the criminal legal process that are still yet to come out. But I think that's true in all of these cases that we cover. In any true crime case, I think about Timothy Coggins, which we covered last season in season two, this case is very done in the most typical sense, in that a crime happened, it was cold for many years. They eventually found out who did it. That person was convicted. Those people were convicted and sentenced to prison terms. Okay, case closed, right? But for Timothy Coggin's family, it's like this case is never over because the loss of that person, you know, it can never be made up for. And when we talk to Heather Coggins, who's the Coggins family sort of spokesperson, you know, she talked a lot about that, how she really doesn't want his memory to be forgotten, how she's working to try to have his story retold in as many venues as possible. And so all of that, to just say that I think all of these cases are living and breathing, I try to keep that in my mind as we are hearing about updates from cases. Is that like, wow, these are real people, and they're real people's lives on the line and. And who are impacted to this day. But, yeah, that's kind of what stuck out to me. I'm curious, how did you feel about it? We haven't really talked about this yet.
- [46:10]
Lycia Stanton
I feel like my reaction to it really highlighted for me the ways that engaging in true crime stories can create its own sort of like, feedback loop or bubble. Because when I learned that their appeal wasn't granted, there was part of me that felt really Shocked because, you know, I had been deep in this case from a research perspective on true Crime, and had watched the Netflix documentary and was just aware of kind of this cultural resurgence of this story and, like, cultural attitudes towards the case. And I think a lot of being engaged with that stuff, to me, just made it feel like, oh, this is feeling really clear, and there's this, like, tide that's shifting. There's this change that's happening in 2025 that's going to give them Anendez brothers a new chance because, oh, don't we all agree that this was awful and that isn't the case, obviously, you know, and I. I think that for me, it kind of highlighted, like, oh, like I do. And. And we've talked about this with True Crime, and I think I try to be intentional with the stories we tell, how we tell them our action items. At the end of, like, sometimes engaging in these stories is, I do think, can kind of make us feel complacent, like, can make us sort of feel like, oh, these problems will eventually solve themselves, that us, like, hearing about them, listening to them, talking about them will fix them. And it's not to say that, like, I mean, I do think that the. The renewed attention is important and good in terms of, like, I mean, even the fact they did get a resentencing had a chance at parole. Like, I think all of that was influenced by a broader cultural conversation. But that's not everything, you know, and. And I think that even the fact that they were denied an appeal, you and I were. Knew this because we were looking for that information. You know, like, I think everyone was talking about the case when the Netflix documentary came out, but I didn't see as much kind of organic stuff coming to me about them not getting an appeal of these other updates that are a little bit perhaps, like, depending on your perspective, the case a little bit more disappointing or for sure disappointing for the Menendez brothers and their family who want them free. It is a good reminder of these stories don't end when the documentary that we're watching ends. They don't end when we're done researching them. You know, a lot of times there's other things that happen, and I think that cultural attention can be a little fickle, and sometimes people just pay attention for a couple months when it's trending on TikTok or for, you know, the duration of a documentary, and then there's not that lasting engagement with what else happens, and then you're missing part of the picture ultimately. Because if you just watch the Netflix documentary, it's like, oh, there's this whole push of, of making this better for them and writing this wrong. And then you're missing the ways that that's not happening overnight. That isn't easy. Like, it still is something that their family is fighting for. So those were kind of my thoughts with it.
- [49:08]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, I totally am in agreement about that. I think that we are in a time where our attention is being pulled in so many places and also is being very trained by whatever media or whatever, like platforms that we're on, whether it be like a social media algorithm or like a news channel that we always have on tv. It's like that's kind of telling us where to put our attention. And we're just simple human beings, all of us. And so it's very easy to be pulled down certain directions and you have to really be intentional to be like, hey, let me close the loop on this. Like, let me stay engaged in this. And so that's not something I think is like any one individual person's problem. I think that that's something that we all, like, struggle with. And it's kind of like a challenge, I think for us all as True Crime Media creators and of course as listeners too, that we are trying to make sure we. We close those loops for ourselves.
- [50:02]
Lycia Stanton
So we're nearing the end of our time here and I want to end with a question from a True crime listener. So earlier this month, we put a question box on our Instagram account asking for listener questions for this episode, which, friendly reminder, make sure to go follow Truer crime pod. We regularly share polls there. We do question boxes. We do behind the scenes content. You can also just like send us DMs and your thoughts and questions. We promise. We actually do read all of those. We'd love to hear from you. For today's episode, the listener question we have comes from our Instagram. This listener submitted. Do you plan to go back to smaller cases that maybe don't have the same attention?
- [50:44]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Yeah, I love this question because I think it shows that our listeners care about the undercovered stories and so do I. I love to hear that because I think that's really important. And the short answer to that question is absolutely, yes, 100% we're gonna do that this season. Actually, next month's case is a story that most folks probably haven't heard. And then for sure, in future seasons we'll continue to do that. But I think this brings up something that makes me feel like, you know, it's worth unpacking why we cover those well known cases too. We talked about a little bit of this at the top of the episode, but I want to kind of bring you a little bit more behind the scenes. For me, when I'm thinking about what is the purpose of Truer Crime from the very beginning and for those of you who have listened to other off the record episodes and other interviews, I say this a lot. True Crime was intentionally not a show that only tells undertold stories, unsolved stories, et cetera. There's a lot of wonderful shows out there that do that. That's whole niches. I'm going to cover the stories that don't get the same attention. I'm going to cover stories about missing girls or missing indigenous folks. That's really important. Actually go check out the podcast the Vanishing Point, which I also hosted, which is about all these different indigenous folks who went missing in Hoopa Valley, California. It's tribal land in California where you, you just see a lot of systemic issues leading to a lot of indigenous folks going missing. So there's a lot of great podcasts out there that are doing that work. My mission with Truer Crime though is really to shift the genre. We say that all the time. And so for me it's always been really important to never get slotted into kind of one category. And you know, I've said I don't want true crime to be the social justice podcast. Like, please, no, I don't want to be the true crime podcast at the black host. I've said it, I've said it over and over again. Those are great things. I have nothing against those ideas. You know, I am a black host and we do touch on themes of social justice. But I want to be a true crime podcast. And for me that means covering all types of cases. To shift the genre though, you need reach. We need this show in as many listeners ears as possible. And we've really found that telling some of these infamous cases, some of these familiar stories bring in new listeners who then stay for some of those lesser known cases. Again, bringing you a little bit behind the curtain here on sort of just the the podcasting world episodes on some of these bigger, more famous cases tend to perform the best. They tend to have higher number of downloads, they tend be more likely to get featured. And when we have that marketing support, when we have people who are just like intrigued by hey, I'm really interested in the Manson case, I want to hear those details. And they come and they check out the show, then our audience grows and then those listeners find episodes on Josiah Sutton from season one, Mindy Dodd from the episodes that we did between season one and season two, to Forest Johnson, which was a season two episode, Keith Lamar, which we just did a couple of months ago. These cases don't get told a lot. These cases need attention, and it is so important to me that we get to tell them. But thinking back to that goal, shifting the genre, we can only do that if we reach enough people. So in many ways, in diving into these infamous cases, it supports our ability to tell those undercovered cases. It's a strategy for us. One sustains the other. And this is really why I wanted to do start doing some of these, like, off the record, behind the scenes episodes. Because podcasting, just like a lot of media is super opaque to folks, it's opaque to me. And I am a podcaster. Like, I feel like I'm like, what, what's actually going on back here? And so I really appreciate the question and that people notice that, like, hey, why are you telling all these other stories? Because I think it brings up an important conversation. But that's why we like to tell both stories for all of those reasons. And I think it's really special because then we get to, we get to spend years diving into a case like Keith Lamar's case, and that just would not be possible financially, to be quite honest, without a listenership that is growing. And that brings me to kind of what our challenge was this month. Every episode of the Menendez Brothers that we put out, I introduced the episode with a challenge to the listeners, to you all, about what we were going to do this month, which is try to grow the show. And the reason that that is so important is because if we grow the show, if it's sustainable, then we can take some more creative risks, we can dive more deeply into things. I mean, we just had a whole conversation on this episode about how we expanded Menendez Brothers from two episodes to three episodes. Doing that requires so many extra hours of work. I mean, every case between our team, we're easily spending a hundred plus hours on an individual case. When you go from a two part case to a three part case, I mean, we're adding tens of hours to the time. And this isn't my full time job, this isn't Olivia's full time job yet, hopefully, you know, in the future. And so we want to be in a situation where we are not cutting corners, where we are making the best content possible so that you are getting the best value possible. And so the more that the show grows, the more freedom we have to make the show right instead of just making it fast. Because there is always an incentive to turn out content. And like, you know, so many people get frustrated. I think we talked about this a little bit earlier too, with, with creators who cut their content into like 8 million different episodes where they said the same thing over and over and over again. Well, the reason that that happens is because if you have more episodes, you can have more advertisers supporting the show. And that's really how the show is able to be done. It's able to be sustainable. So just want to give people that peek behind the curtain so they kind of know, like, we're all trying our best over here. We're trying to get you the best content possible. And, you know, if you want to see more of these types of sort of investigations, like what we did with Keith Lamar, share the show, tell somebody about it, sign up for Tenderfoot plus, it really, really makes a difference for us. Also, if you have any questions, like, if you're like, hey, I, I've been wondering something about the show, please let us know. You know, we're gonna do future off the record episodes. We're gonna do other types of fun bonus episodes like Olivia said. You can DM us on Instagram, Instagram, reorcrimepod and you can also email us. Our email is helloruercrimepodcast.com we read all those emails, so and I try to respond to them whenever possible. As we always say, you can subscribe to our Official newsletter@truercrime.substack.com to stay in the loop on all things true or crime. And if you want to follow along with me personally, I'm on Instagram and TikTok, Lacey Stanton and I also write weekly newsletter. It's called Sincerely. And that's really where things get a little bit more fun. I share my favorite recommendations, my unfiltered thoughts on politics, culture, life in general, and so you can read the past issues, you can get new issues sent straight to your email inbox@sincerelycelesia.substack.com but thank you so much for listening to this. Thank you so much for just helping us be the kind of show that we want to be and for allowing us to tell these stories that really, really, really still matter.
- [57:55]
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- [58:12]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Uh, limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera.
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Olivia Heusingfeld
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Olivia Heusingfeld
Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts have you ever wondered what it would be like to be best friends with a murderer?
- [58:28]
Jack Vanick and Alexis Linklett
Or to escape a kidnapping?
- [58:30]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Or to be the daughter of a serial killer? I'm Jack Vanick.
- [58:34]
Jack Vanick and Alexis Linklett
And I'm Alexis Linklett and we are.
- [58:36]
Olivia Heusingfeld
The hosts of the First Degree podcast.
- [58:38]
Jack Vanick and Alexis Linklett
Every Wednesday, we dive into a new true crime story told through the eyes.
- [58:42]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Of somebody intimately connected to the case itself.
- [58:45]
Jack Vanick and Alexis Linklett
From the world's most infamous crimes to unbelievable cases you've never even heard of.
- [58:49]
Olivia Heusingfeld
We examine the ripple effects that one single moment can have on an infinite number of lives.
- [58:54]
Jack Vanick and Alexis Linklett
Join us as we navigate the twisted paths of crime and uncover a closer understanding of the darkness that walks into among us every day.
- [59:02]
Olivia Heusingfeld
Listen to the First Degree every Wednesday and Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts.