Loading summary
Transcript75 lines
- [00:00]
Celicia Stanton
Foreign you're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.
- [00:08]
Chumba Casino Ad
Attention sports enthusiasts. Keep the adrenaline pumping and elevate your game day with Chumba Casino. It's completely free to play, no purchase necessary. Whether you're cheering from the stands, on the move or relaxing at home, Chumba Casino brings the thrill of social casino directly to your fingertips. Experience the ultimate social casino adventure with reels of casino style games offering hundreds of exciting options to choose from and fresh new releases every week. There's always something new and thrilling to explore. From action packed social slots and classic blackjack to engaging bingo and solitaire, the fun never stops. Plus, enjoy generous daily login bonuses and a fantastic free welcome bonus to kickstart your social gaming journey. Dive into the excitement. Discover a world where you can play for your chance to redeem some serious prizes and have a blast along the way. Don't miss out. What are you waiting for? Join now and immerse yourself in nonstop fun and adventure with Chumba Casino. Get in on the action today@chambaccasino.com and make every day a Chamba Day. No purchase necessary VGW Crook void board prohibited by law 18 + DNC supply.
- [01:09]
Kyle Tequila
Here are three things that you need to know about Tenderfoot TV's brand new true crime podcast Crook County. 1. It's about the secret double life of a Mafia hitman named Kenny the Kid tequila. 2. For over 20 years Kenny kept this secret from his family and it eventually tore them apart. And three this is a true story. And I know that it's true because I was there because Kenny is my father. My name is Kyle Tequila. Welcome to Crook County. Available now. Search Crook county and your favorite podcast app to follow the show.
- [01:47]
Celicia Stanton
Hi friends. I am so excited to share this new Season two episode of True O Crime with you. If you want an ad free listening experience, subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts. Hi friends. On True Crime we are often diving deep into the stories you think you know, exploring them from a fresh perspective. So today I wanted to try something new to give you a behind the scenes look at how this two part series on the Manson murders came to be. Joining me for this conversation is my co producer Olivia Heusinkfeld.
- [02:21]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Hi.
- [02:23]
Celicia Stanton
Olivia works on creative production, research and writing for the show and she's really right there alongside me shaping these episodes from the ground up. So I I thought it only made sense to have her here to help me break down what didn't make it into the episode. The creative choices behind the storytelling and some of the larger themes that emerged along the way. Whether you've listened or not, we're hoping that this episode might spark some new questions and interesting conversations in your own life. So let's get into it. Olivia, where should we start?
- [02:52]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Well, I was thinking we could start with a topic we get asked about a lot, which is, how do you choose cases and what went into your decision to give Manson the truer crime treatment?
- [03:02]
Celicia Stanton
So I know that you had kind of mentioned it and you thought there was maybe a good angle to explore. And so I kind of just started looking into it. And I remember then one of the things that really stood out to me immediately was, like, when you look up photos of him, there's a freaking swastika in the middle of his forehead, which is insane.
- [03:17]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yep.
- [03:18]
Celicia Stanton
And so that really stood out to me. And I was never somebody who was like, oh, I know a ton about the Manson murders, But I felt like the fact that Manson was trying to spark a race war, that he literally had a swastika that he carved into his own forehead, if I didn't know those things, then there are probably other people who didn't know those things as well. And in general, that's kind of like the approach I do like to take with true crime is like, if we're going to tell an infamous story, let's hit on the things that, you know, you and I probably aren't familiar with.
- [03:47]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
You know, when I kind of suggested the case, I was roughly familiar with Manson, but not a lot of the details. And I had stumbled upon, I think, an interview that was just talking about this case, like, the racism within it and how that's often erased. And I was shocked. And so when it comes to telling an infamous case like Manson, there's a lot of discussion about the way that these popular retellings can often glorify and iconize these murderers. Is this something you thought about when crafting the story of the episode? And as a little follow up, is it possible to tell these stories without inadvertently celebrating and platforming the murderers at the center?
- [04:23]
Celicia Stanton
I mean, I think this is something that you and I talked about a lot from the beginning, which is a tenuous line. Right. It's like they're popular for a reason.
- [04:31]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yeah.
- [04:32]
Celicia Stanton
You know, I think that it is relevant to talk about things that are in that, like, cultural zeitgeist. Right. But that also, at the same time, we have to consider the fact that it is a little bit weird that we sort of glamorize serial killers. And that there seems to be a focus that's not on the victims oftentimes, like, that's not the point, right? When we tell these stories, it's about what are we missing, you know, in all these other tellings that we have, of which there are many, many, many. For Manson, I think documentaries and there's podcasts and there's sort of fictionalized versions of it. And so I feel like it really comes down to being conscious of that. And so how can we make creative decisions that are sensitive to the victims, help highlight important themes about our society, and also, you know, tell a true and factual telling? Just because a story has the potential to valorize a serial killer doesn't mean that that story shouldn't be told at all. It just means you need to take care in telling it the right way. Like, for example, the fact that he was trying to incite a race war. Like, for example, the fact that he tried to pin these murders on the Black Panther, Specifically the fact that he manipulated young women into joining his cult and the mechanisms by which he did that. I wanted those things to come through in the episode. And so for me, it's like, okay, if I'm considering an individual detail, it's like, does it forward that narrative? Yes or no? And so that's kind of how I was navigating it.
- [06:02]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
One thing that I do think really makes true or crime unique is the approach of telling these stories that really intentionally situates them within a cultural context, both in terms of how we're writing, then also just the context that the story took place in and how that shaped what even happened. And so, you know, with the Manson family, these murders took place at the end of the 1960s, with the trial at the start of the 1970s. And I know you talk about it a little bit in the episode, but I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how you were thinking about this time period while crafting your take on the Manson story and about the cultural moments of the time and their influence on Manson and his followers.
- [06:43]
Celicia Stanton
One of the things that was really interesting to explore is, you know, Manson was very much like a part of this countercultural, like, hippie movement, right? Where he. At least he exploits that. It's this countercultural group that's very loudly anti Vietnam. You know, you have a lot of young people who are interested in organizing and sort of embracing these ideals of peace and love. Good things, I think, ultimately. But also when Manson is kind of, like, growing his family, and when these murders take place, the backdrop of that is honestly the downfall of the hippie movement. That's something that I found a lot in my research that was really interesting. Yeah, I remember there's this one article that we had used for some of our research from the Guardian where there was this photographer, Joe Sandberg. And it's clear, literally just from looking at the photos that drinking and drugs, they're like a constant. You know, someone always has a bottle in their hand. There's a lot of shooting up on the street. Like all of a sudden you're so overcome by the usage of drugs and how that kind of controls your life that you lose all of that critical sort of analysis that they maybe had at the beginning. You know, you don't have the clarity of mind to realize any of those things. And so I thought that kind of maps onto a lot of what you see happen with Manson and the Manson family and the girls is that they're so just in this drug induced state literally constantly. But also like they do still have these ideals and that's kind of being manipulated by Manson who's kind of telling them, listen, like, you're down and out, it's okay, we can just form this community together. And you know, here's what that's going to look like. And so then, you know, that's how you end up in the situation that, you know, Manson and the Manson family ended up in. But I also think it's interesting too, like, you know, obviously the, the hippie movement wasn't the only movement that was happening at this time. You also have the decline of the civil rights movement as well. The civil rights movement's at its peak when the hippie movement also at its peak. Right. You have these countercultural organizations sort of fighting back, organizing, especially amongst young people. But by the late 1960s, which is when these murders happen, Martin Luther King has been assassinated and the civil rights movement has kind of died with him to some extent. The black power movement had started replacing it in terms of the sort of direction that black civil rights was going at the time. So it feels like this almost perfect opportunity for these tensions to grow between white folks and black folks. And that's something that Manson ultimately can explain in talking about the coming of the race war and, you know, wanting to kick that off. Yeah.
- [09:06]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Which I think is really interesting from the perspective of the Manson family and also just hippie movement overall, we're engaging with concepts of revolution in the same way that the civil rights might have been engaging with it. It's now being twisted in this very particular way that kind of forwards Mansons vision for the world. And also just like ability to control.
- [09:39]
McAfee Ad
Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly. And with award winning antivirus you get top tier hacker protection. Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage. All for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply.
- [10:08]
Capella University Ad
Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University. Our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu.
- [10:40]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Okay, so now I want to talk a little bit about the Manson girls because they're pretty much just as central to the story as Manson himself. You know, when I brought the idea of covering the Manson story on truer crime to you, the way that the Manson girls are portrayed was also something I was really interested in. Especially because I think a lot of times the Manson girls are portrayed kind of as these like manipulative sirens or seductresses or these like very vengeful women with just no conscience. And what's interesting to me is definitely they are perpetrators of violence. And also the complicated truth is they are also victims of violence. A lot of the women that ended up following manson were under 18, most of them were under 25 for sure, and were heavily using drugs, you know, often coerced into sex with Manson. And, and you know, there's a lot of ways that they can be viewed as victims. And I think that them being both victims and perpetrators is really something worth exploring and something we do engage with in the true crime episode.
- [11:47]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, I think it says a lot of things about our society because it's not just this one instance where, okay, Manson's manipulating these girls and then using their devotion for these like awful ends. This is something that actually happens over and over again. And I think what he's doing is he's literally just utilizing a shared value set and a community to sort of manipulate them into Thinking that, like, they're doing what's best for the community and they're doing what's best to kind of achieve their values. And that's not to say that they don't have responsibility and they shouldn't be held accountable. I think that you can simultaneously acknowledge the fact that they're victims in a way. And something you see a lot in pretty much any cult that has ever existed is getting people to be devoted and like committed to something. Because we have these things in agreement and we're living in this community and we are trying to create a better world. Jonestown, same thing, right? Jim Jones appeals to these people by being like, listen, like, you face racism, you face classism, you're impoverished, you want a better life for yourself. Okay, join people's temple and we're going to work to change those things about society. And then once you're in there, you know, it's like this slow process of convincing you to basically give up all of your own decision making power to this higher authority who has basically rescued you. That's kind of how he positions himself. Manson and Jim Jones. And one of the things that always stood out to me about Jonestown is how Jim Jones, there's a lot of audio you can find online, publicly accessible to anyone. You listen to his audio of him talking to his followers and you're like, this man sounds kind of compelling. Like, I'm kind of interested what he has to say. Like, it's giving Bernie Sanders. And then before you know it, you're like fully indoctrinated. And that is hard for people to grasp. I think especially with cults, we have this feeling of like, well, that could never happen to me. Yeah, I would never make those decisions. Because we're only seeing the last decision that was made. We're not seeing the many, many decisions that led up to that last decision. Right. So in this case, the last decision is the decision to go to those homes and murder those innocent people. And so you see that and you're like, that's insane. Who would do that because someone told.
- [13:58]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
You to do it?
- [13:59]
Celicia Stanton
Like, I would never do that. But it's like, okay, but you know, have you ever felt really isolated? Have you ever felt like, really inspired by somebody who kind of preaches a different vision of the future? And then, you know, of course in the Manson situation, you have drugs topping it all off. So that adds a whole other element. In fact, we know that Manson was known to sort of give his followers more drugs than he was taking himself, so that he could kind of stay in a position of control. So it was definitely something where I think what these women participated in, what the family participated in, was truly awful. And at the same time, I think it's worth exploring the ways in which they were manipulated, because that's history that can repeat itself.
- [14:41]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. If we're creating a show that is victim centered, you know, not only being respectful to the victim throughout the story and keeping that perspective in mind, but also looking at, okay, well, why did this happen and what are the ways that this could be prevented in the future? How could we build a world that is safer for everybody? And I definitely think that there could be the critique of an episode like this, or anyone saying, oh, the Manson girls are victims that could be criticized and be like, well, how dare you, you know, give empathy or say that someone is a victim when they, you know, were a murderer, did perpetuate, like, very intense violence. But a lot of times it is more complicated than that. And like, the decision making that leads up to someone killing another person, you know, is exactly what you're talking about. Of, like, loneliness, feeling part of a community, being manipulated, being on intense drugs, all sorts of different things. And even in the case of mental illness, too, that is like a cause in and of itself. And so I do think that, like, it's really important to engage with what happened to these girls is not necessarily so outside of us. And like, if we want to prevent this and protect people, you know, both people from falling into something like what happened to the Manson girls, and also other people or who were harmed by them, we need to, I think, grapple with that.
- [16:03]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, that part it's maybe not so outside of us. Cause I think that that not only does that build empathy and that's important, I think, just as a human being, but also it's like we can hold multiple truths, right? It can be true that what they did was awful and we should condemn that and they should be held accountable for that. And like, the victim's family's want for justice is totally, totally valid and should be served out. And also we can learn from this so that we can prevent it in the future.
- [16:32]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yeah, absolutely. So now just circling back to something else you were just really touching on is the way that Manson really exploited and twisted value systems. It reminds me of a clip that I remember finding very early on in this research that I played for you. And I think we played part of it in the episode, but in it, one of Manson's Followers talks to a reporter right after they learned that Manson was found guilty. So let's just take a listen to that first. You've heard the verdicts. How do you feel now?
- [17:07]
Celicia Stanton
What are you going to do now?
- [17:10]
Manson Follower Clip
You've all judged yourselves poorly. Are you guys proud of a system where a man cannot defend himself? Are you proud of it? He'll be out. All the people will be out.
- [17:21]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
What makes you so sure?
- [17:22]
Manson Follower Clip
Angela Davis will be out. Bobby Seale will be out.
- [17:25]
Celicia Stanton
Did you expect this verdict?
- [17:26]
Manson Follower Clip
The revolution.
- [17:28]
Celicia Stanton
What do you mean by a revolution?
- [17:30]
Manson Follower Clip
A bloody revolution.
- [17:32]
Celicia Stanton
You're gonna be part.
- [17:34]
Manson Follower Clip
Oh, I'll have a part. Maybe I'll do. Everybody will be part of it. Want to take the children to the desert? Your children? There's no reason why your children should die.
- [17:44]
Celicia Stanton
They'll go to the.
- [17:44]
Manson Follower Clip
We'll take them to the desert if you give them to us.
- [17:47]
Celicia Stanton
Win the revolution.
- [17:48]
Manson Follower Clip
Yeah, well, we haven't scheduled it. It's not our revolution. Batman's going to judge this world for every blow he's received. For every blow, every person that's been stepped on by the system, every. It's gonna all come back to you all at once.
- [18:03]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Do you remember me playing that for you? And do you remember your reaction?
- [18:08]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, I do. I literally was like, what? I had no idea what they were even saying. Like, I. Because what they were saying to me was so nonsensical. I literally thought I was not understanding the syntax. Yeah, I was like, there must be something I'm misinterpreting about what they're saying, because it just. I don't get it.
- [18:26]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yeah, I remember at that point, I had done a little bit more research, specifically in regards to Manson's view of Helter Skelter. And so I was, like, somewhat following the logic. Like, I did hear it and feel like it was. You know, there's a lot of logical leaps that are happening. But it was really interesting. I remember your reaction of, like, just the disconnect of when I was telling you what they were saying. And you were like, well, why would. Why would they say that? Why in the world would they reference Angela Davis and Bobby Seale and Manson in the same sentence? And I was like, exactly. You know, I was like, yeah, that's the point. That's the point of this clip is like. You know, that makes total sense to them. And there is a logic in there. But yeah, it is really interesting, too, to think about that, like, clip completely out of context and then also looking at what the ideology actually was. And then you Start to see, okay, I see where the. And then you add a bunch of drugs on top of it. That's the. That's the other important thing. There's a lot of subtle and then more gradual kind of logical shifts that you do. You know, you start with the idea of revolution, and then it. Well, now all of a sudden, Manson's revolution, and then that's how it connects to Angela Davis. And I think that's really interesting. And, yeah, I don't know if you have other thoughts on that clip. Now, knowing a little bit more of.
- [19:45]
Celicia Stanton
The context, obviously we can't know exactly what she was thinking, but, like, it sounds like what she's saying is, like, you know, these people should be freed. Like, she's not literally saying free them, but she's saying that they. They will be and they should be. That's kind of what her tone is implying. And so I think there's something really weird, obviously, about her talking about freeing these sort of revolutionary black power movement leaders in the same breath as Charles Manson, the man who is literally trying to ignite a race war. It's almost as if she seems to think that there's some neutrality that they have. They're like, listen, the race war is just gonna happen. Like, we're not forcing it to happen. It was gonna happen. And it's the revolution. Yeah, but it's like, as if they weren't literally trying to kick off the race war. Yeah, and I think where the disconnect is as well is that, like, you know, Manson is telling his family, like, look, like the race war is gonna happen. And then he's like, oh, it's not happening. I better kick it off. And so they really believe him instead of being like, no, the race war isn't gonna happen. Like, it's actually not about to erupt. They have to believe that it's about to erupt. Because to not believe that it's about to erupt would be to, like, completely shatter the way their whole framework of viewing the world at this point in time in their lives. That's something that the Manson girls who were convicted and ultimately in prison talk about, too, is just having to, like, restructure their whole, like, framework for, like, I don't know, just conceiving of reality once they were kind of away from Manson.
- [21:07]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
And I do think when the Manson girls were talking about, okay, well, if that is not true, if. Then what does that mean about what has happened and what I participated in, which is an incredibly heavy and horrifying thing to have to reconcile.
- [21:22]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, exactly. If you have to live with the weight of, like, oh, the race war isn't going to happen. We were just killing people to start it, slash, for no reason, then, yeah, that is really difficult to live with.
- [21:34]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yeah.
- [21:34]
Celicia Stanton
And something that, you know, these girls do have to live with and have tried to reconcile.
- [21:41]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Okay, so now shifting gears a little bit, something else that I know a lot of people I've heard kind of resonate with truer crime is the way that each episode we're tackling really complex social issues. And this is very intentional, but we try to tackle these issues in a very approachable way. I know that, like, one of your biggest kind of pet peeves is, you know, when people are talking about systems and it feels, like, super academic or super dry, there's tons of academic jargon and it feels inaccessible. Because systems analysis is something that should be approachable. It is something that we should all be able to engage in and also engaging in. And true crime takes a different route by really zooming in on individual stories as a way to show not just how these systems work in reality, but also to add kind of an additional nuance and to humanize the people that we're talking about and the situations we're talking about. You know, in particular, I'm really thinking of a segment From Manson Part 1 where you were talking about Diane Lake and how her perception of the world shifted once she was fully adopted into the Manson family. So let's listen to that clip.
- [22:48]
Celicia Stanton
I was surprised to learn that Diane was raised in my hometown of Minneapolis before she moved to California. It was an environment she recalled as very diverse. She'd tell Janos that her first boyfriend, Michael, was black. The two had started a sweet childhood romance at 11 years old. They'd spend most of their time together listening to the Beatles, gathering at swing sets and playing music from a transistor radio. The day Diane's family left Minneapolis, she and Michael chased each other around the neighborhood, both too afraid to initiate a kiss goodbye. It was all so simple then. Both were still immersed in the innocence and ignorance of childhood. Only a few years later, Diane was listening to the Beatles again. But this time she was hearing them through the lens of Manson's interpretation, one that portrayed black folks as violent, a direct threat to the family and white folks everywhere. I did start to fear black people, Diane admitted.
- [23:54]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
So can you talk me through this section a little bit? Like, what was your thought process in including it? And then what do you really think it adds to. To this telling of the Manson Story.
- [24:03]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah. I think for me, in general, I always want to try to bring the listener alongside my experience as I'm looking into a case. And I detest, like, the academic sort of way, because there's something that's just so grating to me.
- [24:17]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
It will change how seriously you take information.
- [24:21]
Celicia Stanton
Because there's something really grating to me about talking about something that affects real people and then talking about it in this, like, really inaccessible way that the same people you're talking about aren't talking about it or can't access. It's like, you miss the boat, you're losing the plot. I just feel like we can talk in a normal way. And that's actually why I like doing true crime. And what kind of drew me to true crime is I'm like, this is a format that everybody is listening to and watching and consuming. Like, true crime media is so popular, and the way that these stories are told are, you know, accessible to every kind of person. And so we can talk about complex, messy issues. That's fine. But, like, we don't have to do it in a way that, like, conveys that, like, we went to college or something. Like, it just. It doesn't matter. Like, everyone has investment in these issues. Everyone should have investment in these issues. And so back to the point I was making initially, I guess, is that in any story I craft, I like to bring the listener along my process, because then you can connect with, like, a real person. You might have some of the same thoughts I would have, whatever. And Diane Lake's story really stood out to me. She's from Minneapolis, or at least, you know, she grew up in Minneapolis as a younger kid. Like, this very normal and relatable childhood. And so, to me, I wanted to bring the listener along with me because I felt like, dang, like, this is how I see Diane, like, when I'm learning about her upbringing and this, like, sweet moment that she has with this, like, childhood boyfriend or whatever, because that's something that I think most of us can relate to. So then it becomes easier to actually relate to the idea that her beliefs could morph so much. Not because that's happened to any of us, necessarily, but because we know her starting point. I think it's just like, yeah, like, we're all a product of the experiences that we've had. And so for Diane Lake, it's like, you know, she listens to the Beatles and she has a sweet experience with her boyfriend when she's a little kid in Minneapolis. It's like, that's shaping how she sees black folks, that shapes how she conceptualizes how the world should be. And then when she's, like, with Manson and he is, you know, having her do drugs constantly and she's around all these people who tell her she doesn't have to be in school and, you know, we need to ignite this race war. It's like now she's seeing it all through this very different lens. And you can kind of very much see and feel how our inputs matter. Like, the things that we are getting from the people around us really shape our perception. We're all just a product of what we consume and what, you know, the people that we're around also. That's like the power of being around diverse perspectives and having diverse conversations, because all that stuff shapes how we see things. I just feel like there is such power in a singular story. I felt like, for me, even just in the creation of True Crime as a show, it was shaped by so many experiences I had. But one of those things being from Minneapolis after George Floyd was killed and just really sitting with the fact that, like, wow, it's not as if, like, police brutality is this new thing, right? Like, we have all the data, the statistics are out there, right? Before there was George Floyd, there was Rodney King, right? We know these things happen. But there's something about an individual story that is really igniting for people. And, you know, like, even in Minnesota, before there was George Floyd, there was Philando Castile, there was Jamar Clark, you know, but yet it was George Floyd's story that really took off into this global movement. And I think, you know, it's something about that video, right? And people being able to, like, connect to that video and really feel, like, horrified by what they saw. And that made me feel like, wow, individual stories are so important because you can have all the statistics in the world, you can have all the academics in the world, you can have pundits in the world. It doesn't matter. It's a singular story that people are going to map themselves onto, and then it's going to drive them towards, you know, caring and action and all of those things. So whenever I can sort of weave in those smaller narratives within a broader story, I try to do that.
- [28:14]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
The way I always think about it is statistics are important, Research is important, Theory is important. You know, I do think that all of those critical conversations, academic conversations matter. But also I think that if that's the primary form of engagement, all of a sudden, I think we tend to live in this sort of theoretical world where we forget that these statistics are impacting real people and represent real people. And I think that an individual story reminds us that there are real people that are experiencing these things. And it's not just, you know, a theoretical, like mental exercise to imagine what this would look like. We can actually see, well, what does this look like? And who is this impacting? And then by being, you know, more accessible, it also invites people in who are experiencing it to have a part in the conversation as well.
- [29:08]
Celicia Stanton
Definitely. Oh sheet. Honey, chill. It's just laundry. Not that I'm talking about these Arm and hammer power sheets. All the power of arm and hammer laundry detergent in a convenient tossable sheet. Oh sheet. That's what I'm saying. And arm and hammer power sheets deliver.
- [29:29]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
An effective clean at a great price. Think of all the laundry we'll do.
- [29:33]
Celicia Stanton
And all the money we'll save.
- [29:36]
Chumba Casino Ad
Oh sheet, Arm and hammer.
- [29:38]
Celicia Stanton
More power to you.
- [29:43]
eBay Ad
If fashion is your thing, ebay is it. Ebay is where I find all my favorites, from handbags to iconic streetwear, all authenticated for real this time. A little supreme, some Gucci. I even have that vintage Prada on my watch list. That's why ebay is my go to for all my go tos. Yeah, eBay. The place for new pre loved vintage and rare fashion.
- [30:07]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
EBay.
- [30:08]
eBay Ad
Things people love.
- [30:12]
Greenlight Ad
This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free trial@greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify.
- [30:44]
Celicia Stanton
So now.
- [30:44]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Before we're done with questions, I want to shift away from my questions into a question from a listener. So Celicia, are there ever things you choose to leave out of an episode that you still think are really valuable or interesting and, and how do you decide whether to keep it?
- [31:03]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, I mean, I think we both know very well it's so hard to figure out what things to keep, what things to get rid of. You know, everything feels interesting when you've spent, you know, a lot of time looking into and researching a case that you want to include at all.
- [31:16]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yeah. And typically we're telling a full story in one episode. You know, even With Manson of two parts, there was, like, definitely still more. And I think that's true for, you know, any story.
- [31:26]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, exactly. With Manson, it was like we had come across all this really, really interesting trial audio, and it was like, okay. Like, I feel like we have to dive into the trial too. Like, the trial is also part of the cultural, like, moment. But, yeah, so many things I felt like were left out. Even though it was two episodes, one of the things that we cut down quite a bit was just a lot more information about, like, Manson's childhood and upbringing. And I think a lot of that is really interesting just in terms of how does someone like Manson sort of come to be and what are the factors that sort of contribute. And that's not to say that anyone who has the sort of upbringing or similar life experiences to Manson, that they would go and become Manson, because I think most people who endure difficult things don't go on to, you know, like, commit such horrific acts of violence. But with Manson, you know, he had kind of an interesting childhood. Some of the stuff we didn't talk about was the fact that, you know, his mom was incarcerated when he was a kid. And it's kind of an interesting story. She was sort of struggling to make ends meet meet when he was a young child. And her and her brother Luther, his mom's name is Kathleen, end up devising this plan. They're basically gonna try to rob someone. So they devised this plan where they literally get a ketchup bottle and they filled it with salt, and they were like, this is gonna be our fake gun. Like, which is wild, because you just think, like, oh, that could never work. But they were gonna go for it, and they were gonna use that fake gun and try to convince someone to let them take their money. And so Kathleen was essentially in charge of kind of luring this victim. And she did that. She finds this guy. They, like, go all around town that day, drinking, kind of cruising around in his convertible. And then her brother, like, shows up, takes over, basically robs the guy with the ketchup bottle, and they make off with his car and $27. Thankfully, the guy was unharmed, except for the fact that, you know, he had endured this and was robbed. They're literally caught the next day, and she's sent to prison. And that happens when manson is, like, 4 years old. So he, at 4 years old, has no parents because his dad wasn't in the picture. His mom's now incarcerated, so he goes to live with his aunt and uncle. And it's not necessarily like, this loving environment. I remember there's this one anecdote that sticks out to me that we originally had in the episode that got cut where, you know, he's living with this uncle and comes home from school as a young child and he's crying because he had a terrible day. And the uncle was like, oh, you know, you're a crybaby. And he, like, makes him wear a dress to school the next day. And you can imagine this was, like, I think, like, early 1940s. Like, I mean, even now, you know, that could be a really shaping experience. But especially then, it's like, now this little boy is coming to school in a dress. I'm sure he was relentlessly bullied. And that kind of tells you the sort of environment that he was in at that time and the lack of love that he was feeling and the sense of isolation he might have been feeling.
- [34:09]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Well, and there's other details from that time, too. So there's kind of one writer named Jeff Gwynne who has done a lot of the big deep dives into Manson childhood, but a lot it is also hard to track just because Manson has told a ton of stories that, you know, a lot of them people have deemed unreliable. There's some contradictions that have been found. And just tracking down people to really say, like, what his childhood was is relatively difficult. But I know, like, there's also stories of Manson, you know, being very threatening to peers from a young age as well and kind of suggesting violence.
- [34:43]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah. And I think had. We had sort of a different perspective we were going for with this episode where, you know, we want to talk more about some of those systemic things that could lead to someone committing this type of violence. Then. I think those are very, very pertinent details. But, you know, at the same time, it's like we have to tell a coherent story that's going to be compelling to people, and that's what true crime is, ultimately. Right. It's a compelling, entertaining format for storytelling. And I don't think that's a negative thing to say that it's entertaining. It's entertaining by design. Right. We as human beings love telling stories. We love hearing stories. We're always going to feel that way. And in fact, stories make us feel things. This is what we were talking about earlier, even just about, like, a single story, like, creating passion and action and all of those things. And so, you know, for me, I think kind of removing those things was about, like. Let's cut to the heart of what we're trying to get to the points that we're trying to make in these episodes, and hopefully it'll inspire somebody to go and do their own research, and maybe they'll come across some of these details, and it'll spark an interesting conversation in their life. But all of that to say that at the end of the day, yes, we are always kind of figuring out what things to cut, what things to keep. And it's all in service of trying to tell this story in a way that is gonna resonate with people, and it's gonna stick with people and is gonna inspire them to go out, do their own research and have those conversations and take some action to create a world where these sorts of things don't happen again.
- [36:06]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we always have action items at the end of episodes. And I think, in general, one goal that we have with True or Crime is we don't want a listener's engagement with the. Just with, okay, the story's done, you know, now I'm never gonna think about it again because they do, like, live within a context. And one thing that I think that you and I both really do love is hearing what people think of episodes, how it's resonating with them, how it connects to their life, how it has, like, shaped, you know, the way that they view the world. And, yeah, that feedback is always really helpful. You know, even, like, this episode. Right. This is a new format that we're trying. If you're listening to this right now and you have thoughts, thoughts on if you like this format, if you want more of this, if you have other questions about Manson or any other case, we would love to hear it. So we're on Instagram @TrueCrimePod, and on TikTok at Celicia Stanton. And those are probably the two best ways to get in contact and give us your feedback. But another way is to write reviews.
- [37:09]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, it's so incredibly helpful. One of the things that people don't think about because, you know, podcasts are free and feel so intimate, you know, it's just like you're walking along and you're driving, and it's your friend that you're listening into. You're listening into this conversation, and we forget that it's like, this is media, you know, and we've all had those situations where we love a TV show and we're, like, super into it, and it doesn't get renewed. Like, we're, like, so ready for that next season, and it never comes. And just, like with tv, how we can support it is by watching it. It's like if you really do like True or Crime, if it feels like a show that feels important to you, listening to it is of course important. Thank you for listening to this. But leaving those reviews, leading those ratings really helps. It tells other listeners to check us out and it just helps others in the true crime landscape to see that this is the kind of true crime that people want. So please, if you love True Crime, leave us a rating, leave us a review and thank you so much for listening to this format. Like Olivia said, let us know if you liked it. You can do that via DMs on Instagram TikTok, whatever. And thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week for our next story.
- [38:07]
Olivia Heusinkfeld
Bye.
- [38:14]
Celicia Stanton
Thanks for listening to this Season two episode of True Crime. If you want an ad free version of this show and other great shows from Tenderfoot TV, you can subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts.