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- [00:02]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.
- [00:08]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
It's Wednesday. Adams, I see you're trying to distract.
- [00:12]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
Yourself from your own banal thoughts.
- [00:14]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Let me help. Here's a recording thing made of my latest root Canal Wednesday. Season 2 is now playing only on Netflix. Hi, friends. Welcome to off the Record, our new behind the scenes series where we take you inside the making of select true or crime episodes. I am here today with my co producer, Olivia Heusinkfeld, who works on research, writing, and creative production for the show. Basically, she is right there alongside me from the very beginning, helping shape every single episode we do from the ground up. And if you've been listening for a while, you actually kind of might remember from last season that we did something a little bit similar to this. When we covered the Manson family murders, we called that episode Making Manson. And we got such thoughtful feedback from you all, just that you kind of appreciated that deeper look at how we tell stories and why we tell them in the way that we do. So we figured, you know, we should bring that format back this season, but under a new name. Off the Record, we're not necessarily going to do this for every case, but when we feel like we have more to say, like, about the story, the ethical questions we face, the creative process, or, you know, just what didn't make it into the episode, we're going to be right here unpacking it with you. And so today, Olivia and I are talking about the first case of season three, Molly Tibbetts. As always, there's a lot more to the story than what we could fit into two episodes, and we're excited to get into some of that with you here. So. Hi, Olivia. Where should we start?
- [01:58]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
So what I'm kind of thinking is I think we should start really from the beginning of even choosing Molly Tibbetts as the story that we cover in True Crime Season 3 at all, let alone, like the first story. So I just kind of want you to talk through, like, what was the process of you choosing this story, finding this story, how did you first hear about it? And why did you feel like you really wanted to give the story of Molly Tibbetts and her family the kind of truer crime treatment?
- [02:25]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah, so we've talked about. I've talked about a lot of different interviews and episodes of true crime and stuff, like how stories come to me because it's all in a really different ways. And kind of as I was mapping out, okay, what do I want season three to look like? I had a lot of stories that had come to me from, you know, listener suggestions, from conversations with friends, from things I had seen online, from research I had done. And I was kind of piecing everything together and was pretty close to finalizing what that sort of roster would be when Andrew, my husband, had texted me, and he literally just sent me a few screenshots of the Wikipedia page, like Molly Tibbett's Wikipedia page. And it was just like, potential true crime case. And I remember reading it and being like, oh, wow, I'm really surprised. I. I don't remember hearing about it at the time. I mean, it was such huge news, and it wasn't like it was that many years ago. It was recent history time when I was paying attention to a lot of news, but I hadn't ever heard of it, but really captivated by what I had read from that little preview that Andrew had text. And it just felt like the kind of story that I like to tell on true or crime, One that has a lot of nuance, a lot to unpack, that says a lot, maybe, about our culture. And so, you know, it just ended up in the season and ended up being first because it just felt so resonant to the moment that we're living in right now. And, you know, I think what really stuck out to me about this case in particular was just the politicization of the case, like how it was used by Trump and, you know, other Republican figures to kind of force or their cause or this issue of immigration. And I think that anytime a case is being covered a ton and, like, just breaks through in the way that Molly Tibbet's case does, that's a really unique element. And that was just something I was interested in exploring because I think that we always think about, or at least for me, I'm always thinking about these national cases from the perspective of, like, well, where was I at the time and what did I think about it, and what were the conversations I was having with friends and family? And I feel like I'm never really thinking, like, okay, what is the experience of the people who are living this? Right. How would it feel for your family member's story to be politicized in this way? And so that's just really something I wanted to look into with the true crime episode.
- [04:43]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
Also, this is a story that has been told a lot of times, and there's a lot of different people that have told this story. Her parents have told this story, her friends have told this story, reporters. And then you have, you know, Donald Trump and Different politicians in Iowa, other people in the community. How do you kind of see true crime fitting into that landscape?
- [05:04]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah, this is something that I feel like and you know, you know, from our conversations that I'm thinking about a lot. Anytime a case has like a lot of discourse around it, I don't necessarily want to just like add to the noise, but I do want to be in a position where if I can add nuance, I am. So I had read this article talking about Tamir Rice's mom and Tamir rice being the 12 year old boy who was killed by a police officer back in 2014. The article was talking about how Tamira Rice's mom was just feeling extremely frustrated with social justice activists who she felt like were really capitalizing on her son's story, which is interesting. You know, I'm reading this in early 2021, so we're not even a year out from when George Floyd was killed. There's a lot of conversation happening around police brutality at this time. So it was really interesting to hear from Tamir Rice's mom who you know, obviously was in favor of a lot of these social justice initiatives, but felt like some of these activists weren't actually engaging with her in a way that she felt like was respectful to her and her son's legacy. She felt like her son's story was being used to forward their cause without actually doing any work to funnel back energy and attention towards the people who are most directly affected being the community that Tamir Rice was from. And that really struck a chord with me because she said something too about like that story, this story, it's our story, it doesn't belong to them being her and her family's story, her community story. And it really just kind of raised a question for me that I'm always thinking about is like, who do stories belong to? Especially when a story kind of like takes on so much national attention and maybe is the case that broke through. Right. Like if you think of police brutality as an example here, it's like only some of the instances of police brutality are going to break through. And then those individual stories sort of act as like the representation for all the other similar cases and similar stories. And so I think that that's kind of like an uncomfortable tension. Right. Because we want to feel like, you know, people should be able to have privacy, they should be able to hold onto their family members legacy, they should able to control it to some extent. But then we also believe that stories are powerful and that storytelling is powerful and that we should Use individual stories to help educate people and to help change hearts and minds. And so that's kind of a struggle with me on Truer Crime when I'm literally hosting a podcast which is all about telling other people's stories. And so I was thinking about that, especially while working on this Molly Tibbetts episode, because, you know, you have Molly's family saying, stop using Molly as your political talking point. And so I was really considering to myself, well, really, am I just doing the same thing that these people that are like kind of capitalizing on Molly's story is doing? What is the differentiating factor between what I'm doing and what maybe some of these, like conservative politicians did, for example? Am I using someone else's story for my own purposes? And I do think that there is some reality that you just have to admit to as a true crime storyteller who, who isn't telling your own personal story. That of course there's an element of that of course there is an element of using somebody else's story to forward a different mission than maybe what Molly's family's mission is. But I also feel like there's so much you can do to counteract those potential harms and to try to minimize those potential harms. And I feel like so much of that lives in, like, how do you tell a story that is fair, that is nuanced, that is sensitive, and really importantly, how do you direct support? And I think reading about the experience of Tamir Rice's mom really put that into my head of like, she made the comment, they're getting rich off my son's story. They're not directing resources back to my community. And so that's why we do the action items at the end of all the episodes. If we're going to tell other people's story, we need to be forwarding actions that people can do to help those who are most directly impacted or if it can't directly go to those folks to help people in similar situations.
- [09:20]
Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile commercial)
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- [09:42]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra.
- [09:49]
Greenlight Sponsor Voice
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- [10:23]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
So while preparing for this episode, you and I actually had a few discussions about a case that was similar to Molly's. And that's the case of Aiden Clark. Aiden was an 11 year old in Ohio who was riding the school bus sometime in 2023. And while he was riding the school bus, there was a minivan that crashed into the side of the bus that ended up killing Aiden and hurt nearly two dozen other students who were riding the bus. And you know, as it turned out, the person who was driving that minivan that crashed in the bus was a Haitian man named Ermanio. Joseph Hermanio ended up being convicted of involuntary manslaughter and vehicular homicide and he was sentenced to between nine and 13 and a half years in prison. And very similar to Molly's story, Aiden's story has been used very heavily by Trump and other Republicans to drum up, you know, similar anti immigrant sentiments. Like for example, in September 2024 the Trump campaign shared a post that read in all capitals, remember, 11 year old Aiden Clark was killed on his way to school by a Haitian migrant that Kamala Harris let into the country in Springfield, Ohio. And then the next day after that Trump campaign tweet, JD Vance posted, do you know what's confirmed? That a child was murdered by a Haitian migrant who has no right to be here. And just like Molly's family, Aiden's dad spoke out and basically told Trump to leave his son alone. Here's a little clip of Nathan Clark, Aiden's dad.
- [11:57]
Nathan Clark (Aiden Clark's father)
I wish that my son Aiden Clark was killed by a 60 year old white man. I bet you never thought anyone would ever say something so blunt. But if that guy killed my 11 year old son, the incessant group of hate spewing people would leave us alone. The last thing that we need is to have the worst day of our lives violently and constantly shoved in our faces. But even that's not good enough. For them, they take it one step further. They make it seem as though our wonderful Aiden appreciates your hate, that we should follow their hate. And look what you've done to us. We have to get up here and beg them to stop. Using Aiden as a political tool is, to say the least, reprehensible for any political purpose. Did you know that one of the worst feelings in the world is to not be able to protect your child? Even worse, we can't even protect his memory when he's gone.
- [13:02]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
You know, these stories share a lot of similarities, and they really hit on this theme of narrative hijacking, which I'm curious if you could kind of share more of your thoughts on this. Having engaged in both Molly's story and Aiden's story.
- [13:16]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah. One of the things that I found really interesting about Molly's story is the fact that this wasn't the only instance of something like this happening. You know, obviously it's pretty rare for someone to be killed by an undocumented person. It's maybe even rarer that if you are killed by an undocumented person that you're gonna like, that story is gonna be used politically in this way. So the fact that there were other instances of this happening was sad for me. I feel like mostly because of the fact that in these cases, both Aiden and Molly's family felt like this political hijacking was additional pain. It was like they were already going through all the grief of having lost their family member, their child. And now, you know, to have this sort of public discourse where they felt like their child was almost like a political pawn was doubly hurtful. And, you know, I think that I do wanna note, you know, while we're drawing out these two examples, there are other examples of other. Of other cases too, where somebody was killed by an undocumented person. And that story has been talked about in a political way. And in those cases, the families don't always react the same way. It's not like every family who's been in this position feels how Aiden's family and Molly's family felt. And I talk a little bit about this in the episode, but it's like, you know, I think I had read about one mom who was like, oh, you know, this happening to my child turned me into a Republican. Like, she, I guess, felt very validated by how her child's story was kind of taken up by the right. You know, there was another person I had read about who said that, you know, he hoped that he could kill the person who had who had hurt his child. So to me, that really just illustrated in learning all of that. It's like everybody is going to react to these things really differently, and we don't know how we're going to react. Nobody knows how they're going to handle a situation like this. And so I think that that's really key here. Like, I don't want to hide that. I don't want to make it seem like everybody is going to have an issue with this. But I do feel like what is happening that is important to note is that there's narrative theft going on. And by that I mean, it's not even about who is using the story. It's about the fact that the story is being used for an agenda. Right. And that agenda is different than the legacy or is engaged with the legacy that a family feels like they want their loved one to have. And so I think that it's really important that we actually engage with families, with communities that have experienced the loss, with the people who are living the narrative that we are using. Right. And I think, you know, it's kind of interesting because I'm. I'm not really the type of person who believes that, like, an individual story should guide policy, meaning that I don't think that just because, you know, something happened in an individual circumstance, that means that we just should do whatever the victim or the victim's family wants, and we should kind of just use that and apply it in a broad sense. I think that it is really important to listen to individual stories, individual experiences. But of course, we have to make policy based off of averages. Right? Based off of what the most common experiences are or the most common cracks that people fall through. Right. And so I think that that's what's tricky here is I'm not saying that, like, we should never use individual stories to talk about politics. Like, I think that of course we're going to use individual stories in a political manner. Like that's inherent to politics. But I think the key is, like, engaging with the people whose stories we're using. Right. I think that you can use a story to forward a point. You should forward the points you think are important in politics. Politics are important in our lives, right? We want leaders who are passionate. We want leaders who want to push forward for what they think will make the better. But we also want leaders who are empathetic and compassionate and kind and understanding. And I think part of that means, you know, having the respect of listening to the people whose stories are kind of forming the basis of your argumentation. And so, you know, for me, that's what I feel like was the major issue here, regardless of what anyone's individual political orientation is. It's like, I think, and I hope that we all can agree that it's like, if people are telling you this is not what my loved one would have wanted, that, like, that should be respected and that, of course, you should be reaching out to these people to figure out if using the story for your agenda even makes sense. Right. And how do we do that in a respectful way?
- [17:58]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
Yeah, it actually makes me think of something. So the clip that we played of Aiden's dad, Nathan Clark, you know, it's part of a little speech that he gave about this. And one thing that we didn't include but, like, really makes me think of what you're talking about is Nathan Clark describes who Aiden was, like, what Aiden's interest was, who he was as a person, and highlights this tension between who Aiden was and the way that his story is being used and the way that his story is, like, you know, the outcomes of the way that his story is being used. And I think that's something, I mean, we also see with Molly's parents, you know, sort of, again, highlighted in that tension of, like, who Molly is and what she would stand for and how she would view these things and how, like, the way that her story is being used is not in alignment. And it's. I think, you know, ultimately it's interesting when we're talking about people that are no longer with us, that don't have the voice or the agency necessarily to participate in this conversation.
- [19:04]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah. And I think, you know, obviously that's demonstrated in Molly's story by something that her mom, Laura Calderwood, had said, which is like, when she first heard Trump talking about her daughter, you know, after the. Her daughter's memorial, he didn't even use her name. Trump did not even use Molly's name. And then, you know, it was just so interesting when I was looking into it, and I found that the tweet that his team had kind of put out there and her name was there in brackets. It's like, okay, let's kind of, like, add it in here at the end because it makes me feel like it doesn't actually matter who Molly is, because this is about forwarding a narrative. This is evidence that forwards a particular narrative. It's not actually about Molly. And I think that's what's painful is that, like, you know, if you're going to use a story to illustrate Your point, you have to acknowledge that stories are about people, real people.
- [19:58]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
Yeah, totally. And you know, I think ultimately like Trump and the broader Republican Party, they've really latched onto this, this story, Molly's story, Aiden's story, other stories, and kind of use them as evidence towards this broader narrative of immigrants are committing violent crimes in the United States. And that fact should really dictate a more aggressive policy, anti kind of immigration policy. But as you and I know, like you can have these specific examples and they're not always representative of broader trends. So I kind of want us to talk about like, well, what is the truth, you know, compared to natural born citizens, are immigrants disproportionately committing violent crimes? What, what is this, you know, outside of these specific instances that they're pointing to, like what is the landscape that we're actually living in?
- [20:46]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah, and I'm glad we're talking about this point because obviously so far we've talked a lot about like the impact of the politicization of this case on Molly's family. Right. And that's obviously incredibly. But there was also, and this, we talk about a lot in the episode, there was this huge impact on Brooklyn, Iowa's immigrant community. And of course, more broadly, this sort of like rhetoric from Trump. It's gonna have an impact on immigrant communities everywhere. Right. And how safe they feel, but also, you know, how people feel about them. And I think what is particularly alarming to me is that this narrative isn't actually backed by the data. This is something we looked into a little bit for the episode, just, you know, to have that background. And we'd come across this data from the American Immigration Council and they had sort of tracked information from 1990 to 2013. And in that period of time, 23 years, they found that the amount of people in the United States who are foreign born increased from 7.1% in 1990 to 13.1% in 2013. So that's a pretty significant increase. I mean, we're almost doubling the number of foreign born people in the country. And so you kind of would imagine that if this narrative was true, that like these people who are coming in, like they're committing all of these crimes, that that would be reflected in the data. But actually in that same Time frame from 1990 to 2013, violent crime rates plummeted. They plummeted 48% across the country. And just in general, you know, these reductions in crime have been happening. Just if you look at the graph, it's kind of like this steady decline since that period. And I always think about these numbers a lot, even beyond this case, because I feel like, you know, we live in this time where, you know, true crime is super popular. We're in our 24, 7 news cycle, we have social media, and it creates this feeling for a lot of folks that society is more dangerous. Like, you know, like anyone could be out to get us at any time. I mean, I, I think a lot of us have probably heard the rhetoric, like, oh, when I was a kid, I used to be able to like, you know, go out and play and just like go wherever I wanted within this, like, sort of huge radius. But now, you know, kids aren't necessarily allowed to go as far. There's not as much independence because there's a lot of fear about what could happen or who might be, you know, out to harm you. And I think that it makes sense that with the popularity of true crime, with a 247 news cycle, with social media, that if you're hearing more of these stories, it makes you feel like things are more dangerous even when they're not. And I think that maybe applies in this case too, where it's like we're hearing these stories of like, what happened to Molly Tibbets, what happened to Aidan Clark, what happened to, you know, some of these other examples. And, and it makes us feel like, well, it must be true that then these immigrants are coming in and particularly undocumented folks, and they're committing these crimes or they're harming people. And you know, also it's not just like it was like, okay, that one piece of data, there was also information that we found from the Cato Institute, what they did was they looked at incarceration rates. So, you know, what is the percentage of any given group who is incarcerated? For native born Americans like you and I, we have an incarceration rate of one and a half percent. And the incarceration rate for undocumented immigrants is less than that. It is less than a percent. It's 0.85%. And what's really interesting is when you subtract the people who are just in prison for immigration violations, then that 0.85% reduces to 0.5%. So now we're just at half a percent. So just as a reminder, for Native born Americans, 1.53%, incarceration rate for undocumented individuals who are not in prison for an immigration violation, 0.5%. So what that tells me is that it's just not really the case that undocumented folks are committing crimes at a higher rate than native born Americans. In fact, I mean native born Americans, according to this data, are committing crimes that three times the rate an undocumented person is. And so that, that just really counter to the narrative that was being forwarded with stories like Molly's. And so I feel like it's one of those things where it doesn't matter what issue you're talking about. You can cherry pick a bunch of examples of horror stories and sort of like create an environment that feels scary. But I do think it is important that we are all on the same page about at least what the data says. Anybody is going to go and have their own opinions based on their own personal experiences. And I'm saying that like personal experiences don't matter. But I do think that we need to be clear on the data here.
- [25:25]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
Oh totally. And you know, I think it's really interesting how like these like individual stories and particular conclusions made from those individual stories can really paint a picture for a lot of people that is not a picture that's really reflective of broader trends. And you know, I think some of that's intentional with the way that like someone like Trump who does have a particular political agenda is repeating these stories over and over. And you know, that makes the general public feel like, oh well, I've heard this, you know, these couple of stories, it's probably part of a bigger trend, you know, whether they're consciously making that connection or not. But you know, I think that's also why I think that telling these stories in a way that's responsible is really important. And I think that's like central to like what true or crime is trying to do is that those individual stories and the way they're told and the conclusions we draw for them have a lot of impact and have a lot of power and like it's important that they're connected to conversations with broader trends and connected to kind of this, this bigger landscape of what's actually going on. And you know, kind of talking about examples of like, you know, again taking an individual story and connecting it to part of a narrative that you know, might not actually be connected to broader trends. I really want to talk about the robocall that we discussed in episode two of Molly Tibbets. Let's take a listen.
- [26:55]
Robocall Voice (Scott D. Rhodes impersonation)
The body of 20 year old Molly Tibbets was found in a cornfield after she was stabbed to death by an invader from Mexico. A biological hybrid of the white shell and his savage Aztec ancestors, who also Tibetanized during their mastery sacrifices on top of pyramids, they didn't feel some relatives of Molly Tibbets are deal pine that despite having been murdered by a non white savage intruder, she would still support the invasion of America by a brown horde currently at a staggering 58 million. But you know in your heart they are wrong. If after her life had now been brutally stolen from her, she could be brought back to life for just one moment and asked, what do you think? Now Molly Tibbets would say, kill them all.
- [27:51]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
So as we discussed in the episode, this robocall which you just heard was paid for by a white nationalist who used Molly's story to drum up anti immigrant sentiment. And obviously, you know, it's a really disturbing piece of audio and there's actually a lot about this story that we didn't get to include in the episode. But really, in summary, the person behind these calls was a 51 year old Montana man named Scott D. Rhodes. And in Brooklyn, Iowa alone, Rhodes made more than 827 robocalls over just a three day period. You know, so again, 827 of these types of calls in three days. And as it turns out that same year, Rhodes had actually sent tens of thousands of robocalls to people across eight different states. And they weren't all about Molly, but they were all kind of engaging in like similar rhetoric, using different stories in some cases. Eventually Rhodes was fined $9.9 million by the FCC, but by the time he's fined the robocalls that he was behind, they'd already been made and the damage in a lot of ways had already been. And you know what's really mind blowing to me in the case of like the calls that were related to Molly is like Molly's family received these robocalls and I'm sure like lots of people who receive these robocalls, you know, again, hundreds of robocalls over just a couple days in a small town of Brooklyn, Iowa. I'm sure a lot of those people knew Molly personally. So I'm kind of curious on your thoughts on the effect that something like this would have on a community, as well as why you thought it was important to include the robocall as part of, of the true or crime telling of Molly's story.
- [29:29]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
So yeah, I mean it's interesting because for me I was really struggling with whether or not I should even play the call on the episode to begin with. And you know, we do play, we play a good portion of it. We don't play 100% the full thing, but I feel like, part of the issue for me was I was like, okay, like, this call is just so deeply racist and disturbing. And, you know, I don't want to distract too much from the story that we are telling. And I also didn't want to necessarily give a platform to such awful, disturbing ideas. But then I also felt like to not play it would kind of remove an opportunity for listeners to be able to hear it for themselves and, like, sit with how it might feel to get that call or what it would be like for that call to be kind of like, everywhere in a small town. And. And I think it also reveals that there are people in our society who believe these things, these absolutely awful things, and will go to such great lengths to spread that ideology, like, you know, sending out a robocall to hundreds of people. Because I think that sometimes it can feel like, especially if you're in a particular community, like racism looks in some particular way and we forget that. That. No, there are genuinely still people who believe. Who have these, like, deeply held, really xenophobic or racist beliefs. And I felt like the experience of getting to hear the call and, like, kind of form my own opinions and have my own reaction to it was something I got to do. And I felt like it just made sense to bring the listeners on the same journey that I was on, because that's always what I think, you know, I'm trying to do with truer crime is I don't see myself as the knower of answers. I see myself as somebody who's curious, who has questions, and who is kind of exploring things for myself. And I feel like I see myself as a listener in that way. And so I wanted the listeners to have. Have that experience, too. And, you know, like, you mentioned Molly's dad, Rob Tibbets, actually received that call, like, to his phone. And I just feel like that's just so wild to imagine, like. And particularly having to imagine having to listen to somebod imitate your dead daughter's voice saying, kill them all. Especially when she didn't believe in this sort of ideology that was being forwarded. It's just really cruel. And clearly the person who was kind of behind these calls didn't care if her family would hear it. I mean, like, it's a small town. Like, it was obviously going to get back to them even if they didn't. It didn't go directly to their phone. And so, yeah, I think for me, it's just a particularly. Just sad anecdote, I guess, in this broader story. But I think it really reveals a lot about, like, where we're still at in society. And also just, like, helps remind me that the people living these experiences are really having to hold so much when these cases get such a large amount of attention and when they're politicized in this way.
- [32:33]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
And I think it's also interesting that this was one person, you know, and this was, like, a white nationalist. And I think that also it kind of, like, connects us to a broader thing of, like, okay, you have politicians that are forwarding a particular political narrative that also influences, like, individual action and individual belief and individual, like, activism and engagement. You know, I mean, you talk about that a little bit in the episode about just, like, the impact that it had on the, you know, immigrant community in Brooklyn and the type of threats that they were getting. And I think that, you know, that's. It's a reminder, too, of how, like, all of these things are connected. And, you know, there's. There's real impact to someone like Trump on a national stage spreading this particular narrative. You know, it. It really changes how individuals treat other people.
- [33:25]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah. In this case, it seems to have emboldened somebody to kind of just go out on their own and sort of, like, be like, why wouldn't you feel like you could go out and do that when it's being endorsed by figures like Donald Trump, you know, and he.
- [33:40]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
Was president at the time this happened.
- [33:42]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah. And Trump is not necessarily going out and saying he endorses this robocall. Right. But, like, you know, just endorsing this idea that, like, these immigrants and undocumented folks in particular are dangerous and people to be feared.
- [34:05]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
So I want to take a little bit of a, you know, kind of sidestep here onto a different part of the episode and, you know, a part that really was, like, particularly impactful, you know, when I was first listening to it. So, like, kind of to give a little context for listeners who might not know. So, like, part of our process of creating an episode is listening to what we refer to as, like, the first cut. And what that means is that. That, you know, this. But, like, you and I start by researching, and then we split up the writing for the episode, and then, you know, after we've written and edited, you take the script, you record it, and then we send that recording off to our editor, and then what we get back from our editor is this first cut, which in many ways is the first time that we really get to hear what the full arc of the episode sounds like. You know, we have it on paper Beforehand. But it's the first time that we actually get to, like, you know, I think there is a difference between, like, reading it versus hearing it. You know, you really get to feel the whole, like, you know, actual emotions of the episode, especially when, like, additional audio is placed. And for Molly Tibbets, when I was listening to that first cut, I was actually, like, moved to tears by a moment at the end of part two. So it's a moment after you tell the story of Yuli. And Yuli was the son of immigrants in Brooklyn, Iowa, who the Tibbetts family actually took into their home after Molly's death. And this was at a time when anti immigrant sentiment was really bad in Brooklyn. And in this scene, Yuli is sitting down at dinner with Molly's mom, Laura. So let's listen.
- [35:36]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
There's a moment I read about in a Washington Post article that I couldn't get out of my head. An ordinary night. Laura and Yuli sitting down for dinner. The TV on. In the background, a news anchor's voice cut through the silence. We simply cannot tolerate the continued invasion of this country. But Laura and Yuli didn't turn it off, didn't talk about it either. Instead, they ate and talk about basketball, about the upcoming season. The moment is small but striking. Two humans at the dinner table, both dealing with the weight of their own pain. But still, life goes on. It feels so unlikely, them together sharing a meal. Yet there they were, saying so little, but, you know, holding so much, using what they had left to make something different, but still beautiful.
- [36:39]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
And, you know, I think what really moved me so much about this moment was, like, really just, like how tiny it was and, you know, still under something, like, genuinely as mundane as, like, Yui just sitting down to dinner with, like, this family that has, like, welcomed him into their home. Under that little moment sits, like, this much bigger, heavier, like, complicated reality that Yuli and Molly's parents and everyone else in Brooklyn like, has to actually live through. And, you know, they do live through it, and really they do that because they have to. And so, like, you know, when you're describing this scene, like, they keep eating dinner and they talk about their day, they talk about basketball. And I think it's a moment that really captures a lot of the themes at the heart of, you know, the two episodes that True of Crime put out about Molly Tibbetts. Can you tell me a little bit more about this scene, how you found it, about your decision to include this scene and also Yuli's story generally?
- [37:41]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah, I Feel like in researching this story, there's just, obviously, there's so much darkness and sadness and grief that is wrapped up in it in any. Any true crime case. And any true crime case, right. But when I had come across Yuli's story, and I should say Laura and Yuli's story, this is like their moment together. And I think that what really stood out to me about it, learning that Laura had welcomed Yuli into her home and that they had had these moments together and that they had, you know, finished out this school year together. It was one of the first moments in looking into this case that I felt just so profoundly hopeful, right? You know, like, hopeful about humanity and about our country and about the future. Because it was this reminder to me that even when there's this immense sadness, there's still beauty, right? There's still things worth living for. And it just kind of reminds me of the idea in general, too, that grief is really this beautiful thing because it means that you loved somebody, that there is no grief without love. And when you think about it that way, it's like, obviously grief is an awful thing to experience, but it's also proof of all the good things that life has to offer. And I. I think a lot about how for so many people, the justice system, the criminal legal process, it really. It doesn't feel like justice. It doesn't deliver justice in this case, right? Somebody is convicted, right? Which is like, I guess, the system performing at its best, right? If that person is actually did it and was convicted. But for so many people, you know, maybe they don't get a conviction or maybe they get a conviction, it doesn't feel the way that they thought it would or whatever else. So the reason that that happens is because when you have, like, a loss like this violation like this, there's no way to become whole again. And I feel like this story highlights, for me that justice is so much bigger than the things that we think of when we think of justice. It's so much bigger than lawyers and courts and verdicts, that justice is really what we make of it as people, that we actually still have agency even when terrible things happen to us, you know, that we can choose to honor the people in our lives even when the world can't do that. And that's what Molly's family does, right? They honor Molly's memory, regardless of what pundits and politicians have to say about her. And, you know, I. Obviously, neither of us knew Molly. We reached out to her family, weren't able to get connected with them. So, you know, I don't know anybody who is directly involved or impacted by this. But what I understand about Molly, from what I've read about her, what I've listened to about her, I do feel strongly that what Laura did in bringing Yuli into her home, that was something that, you know, Molly would have been deeply proud of. And for me, it felt like in telling this story, it would be like an insult to Molly's memory to not include this part, to not give this part its moment, because that's such a beautiful and it's just such a wonderful reminder that beauty can come out of things that are so hard.
- [40:58]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
So kind of as we reach the end of today's episode, I wanted to kind of wrap things up with a question that we received from a listener. I've been a fan of True or Crime pretty much since the beginning and I'm so excited for this new format and six months of episodes. I promise I'm patient. Both of those long gaps between seasons had a girl desperate for you to come back. I love the work you do and I want to do what I can to make sure you keep making truer crime for as long as you want to. What are ways listeners like me hehe can support the work so it never, ever stops?
- [41:32]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Yeah. So thank you so much for listening and for the question. Hopefully the new sort of format that we're doing kind of makes sense to folks who've been listening. But. But we're changing things, right, because we've gone from doing these two seasons that were spaced out apart and had a different case every week, but really were only on air for like two, two and a half months, to this format which we're doing now, which is every month, brand new case. And we're going to deep dive that case. We're going to lean into nuance and digging deep and all of that. And we're going to do that by telling these stories over two, three, sometimes four part episodes, whatever that story requires. Then we'll do things like this, like, you know, chatting about the making of episodes or maybe we'll do interviews with family or journalists or, you know, other people who are kind of related to themes of a case and collabs and things like that. But point being that we want to just be in community with you more consistently over a longer period of time. And so obviously that's a ton of work. But we really tried to build this model to be a sustainable as possible. But it means so much that you would ask, like, how you can support that because, you know, this is a big undertaking we're doing and we're really hoping that it's going to work out and that you guys are going to like it and that we can be able to continue to do this past this next season and future seasons. And so yeah, the biggest thing that you can do is let us know what you think of the new format. Listen to the show, definitely listen to the show, share about it, send it in your group chats, post about it on social media, tag us. We love to see it. We always respond to all the DMs and messages and things like that. Emails too. Write us a review which we we talk about all the time, but really makes a difference. It helps with discoverability, like that's how people will find the show. And then what's really exciting about our new format is you can actually subscribe to Tenderfoot plus and that will give you access to all of the episodes on a case at the top of the month, which is, you know, great. You can kind of binge all of those if you want to, or you can listen to them week to week. But what's amazing about becoming a Tenderfoot plus subscriber is that you're supporting the show in another way. And it is just an endorsement that you really like listening to us and you want to support us in that way. So however you can support us, we deeply appreciate it.
- [43:46]
Host 1 (likely the main host of True Crime)
And as far as like joining the Tenderfoot plus, you can do that directly from like the show page in whatever your podcast app is. Like if you search True Crime or go to like the True Crime page in Spotify or in Apple Podcasts or whatever your chosen podcast app is. There should be a button for Tenderfoot plus and you can register directly through your app.
- [44:06]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
And actually next week we will be coming back with a surprise special little bonus episode, something a little bit different. So make sure to check your podcast apps on Monday. Listen to that. And of course, as always, you can keep up with True Crime on Instagram and X at Truer Crime Pod. And you can also find me on Instagram and TikTok Tok at Cecia Stanton and through my weekly newsletter, Sincerely Celicia@sincerelycelesia.substack.com can't wait for the season ahead.
- [44:41]
Adam Rogers (FX's Alien Earth podcast host)
This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth, the official podcast. Each week, host Adam Rogers is joined by guests, including the show's creator, cast and crew. In this exclusive companion podcast. They will explore story elements, deep dive into character motivations, and offer an episode by episode, behind the scenes breakdown of each terrifying chapter in this new series. Search FX's Alien Earth wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [45:09]
Narrator for Cold Blooded Mystery in Alaska promo
In March 2017, police in Ketchikan, Alaska got a worried call and I haven't.
- [45:15]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Heard from them, so I'm getting worried.
- [45:17]
Narrator for Cold Blooded Mystery in Alaska promo
It was about a beloved surgeon, one of just two in town named Eric Garcia. When police officers arrived to check on the doctor, they found him dead on a couch.
- [45:28]
Olivia Heusinkfeld (co-producer and co-host)
Is it a suicide? Is it a murder? What is it?
- [45:30]
Narrator for Cold Blooded Mystery in Alaska promo
From ABC Audio and 2020 Cold Blooded Mystery in Alaska is out now Listen wherever you get your podcasts.