The Manson Murders Part 2

Summary

Truer Crime: The Manson Murders Part 2 – Detailed Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Truer Crime
• Host/Author: Celisia Stanton
• Episode: The Manson Murders Part 2
• Release Date: February 24, 2025

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Introduction

In the second installment of "The Manson Murders," host Celisia Stanton delves deeper into the harrowing events orchestrated by Charles Manson and his followers. Building upon the foundation laid in Part 1, this episode offers a nuanced exploration of the murders, the subsequent investigation, and the infamous trial that captivated the nation.

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Recap of the Tate-LaBianca Murders

Morning of August 9, 1969: Celisia begins by setting the scene for one of the most notorious crime sprees in American history. On this day, Sharon Tate and four others were brutally murdered at her home on Cielo Drive in Los Angeles.

"When a house cleaner arrived at Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski's home on Cielo Drive, what she found would soon become infamous across California and around the globe." ([04:59])

Discovery and Initial Investigation: The following day, the bodies of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca were discovered. Initially, authorities treated the Tate and LaBianca murders as separate incidents, with early theories suggesting drug-related motives and unrelated robberies.

"At first, police didn't see the two cases as connected." ([05:09])

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The Rise of Fear and Paranoia

The simultaneous murders instilled widespread fear in Los Angeles, leading to a surge in the sale of guard dogs and firearms, as well as increased reliance on security services.

"There was a lot of fear in LA. The sale of guard dogs and guns rose dramatically overnight." ([06:12])

The gruesome messages left at the crime scenes, such as "Death to pigs," hinted at an occult motive, inadvertently igniting the 1970s satanic panic.

"The clues left behind by the Family, the bloody messages written on walls, it all made the killing seem almost occult in nature." ([06:26])

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Charles Manson's Increasing Paranoia and Continued Murders

Spahn Ranch Raid and Aftermath: Diane Lake, a young member of the Manson Family, recounts the tension leading up to the second murder committed by Manson's followers: the killing of Donald "Shorty" Shea.

"Diane would say they were almost proud. The ranch was very isolated." ([08:43])

Fleeing to Barker Ranch: Fearing further police intervention, Manson and his group relocated to Barker Ranch in Death Valley, where the true extent of their crimes began to surface.

"They fled hundreds of miles northeast to Barker Ranch in Death Valley." ([08:43])

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Breakthroughs in the Investigation

Susan Atkins’ Confession: Susan Atkins, a key member of the Manson Family, became a pivotal figure in unraveling the mystery. Her candid discussions with cellmates led to crucial information about the murders.

"Susan was extremely talkative on the inside. She told her cellmates about her life in the family." ([13:17])

Discovery of Evidence: Fingerprints linking Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel to the Tate murders and the recovery of bloody clothing near Cielo Drive provided law enforcement with tangible evidence against the perpetrators.

"Bloodied clothes were found discarded by the killers after fleeing the murder scene." ([15:01])

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The Grand Jury and Indictments

Grand Jury Proceedings: In December 1969, a grand jury convened, led by key witnesses like Susan Atkins, to examine the mounting evidence. The jury swiftly indicted six members of the Manson Family on conspiracy and multiple counts of murder.

"It took the grand jury just 20 minutes to agree that six members... should be indicted." ([17:49])

Manson’s Controversial Request: Charles Manson's insistence on representing himself disrupted the legal proceedings, leading to delays and additional courtroom drama.

"Manson told the court, 'I am a person and I don't wish to be played with.'” ([18:53])

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The Infamous Trial

Trial Beginnings: June 1970 marked the commencement of the Manson trial, characterized by intense media scrutiny and public fascination. Jury selection was meticulous, with jurors sequestered to maintain impartiality.

"The trial was set to begin, starting with jury selection... their televisions were monitored and newspapers were removed." ([26:35])

Manson’s Disturbing Behavior: Manson's erratic behavior in court, including self-inflicted scars and violent outbursts, further sensationalized the trial.

"He carved an X on his forehead... 'You are a human and I'm going to fight for my life one way or another.'" ([28:27], [35:48])

Prosecution’s Strategy: Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi focused on establishing Manson as the mastermind behind the murders, emphasizing his manipulative control over his followers and his twisted vision of "Helter Skelter," an impending race war.

"Bugliosi believed unequivocally that... it was he who'd been the mastermind and ordered the deaths of seven innocent people." ([33:06])

Linda Kasabian’s Testimony: Linda Kasabian, another key member who received immunity, provided detailed accounts of the murders, reinforcing the prosecution's case against Manson and his followers.

"Linda testified... she spent a total of 18 days on the witness stand detailing what life had been like living under Manson's control." ([38:57])

Defense Challenges: The defense struggled with disjointed legal representation and failed attempts to undermine the prosecution’s narrative, ultimately hindering their ability to mount an effective defense.

"Disagreements and stylistic differences among the defense team posed significant challenges." ([41:12])

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Verdict and Sentencing

Jury Deliberation and Decision: After nine days of deliberation, the jury rendered guilty verdicts for Charles Manson and his three female co-defendants, holding them accountable for the gruesome murders.

"The jury would have only two requests... it would take them nine days to return their verdict." ([48:09])

Sentencing: Charles Manson and his followers were sentenced to death, a sentence later commuted to life imprisonment following California's abolition of the death penalty.

"The judge formally passed sentence on Charles Manson and his girls. The death penalty... in this case." ([49:03])

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Aftermath and Legacy

Lives Behind Bars: Post-trial, key members like Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel remained incarcerated, with Patricia becoming the longest-serving female inmate in California.

"Patricia Krenwinkel is the longest incarcerated woman in California." ([50:45])

Cultural Impact: The trial left an indelible mark on American culture, symbolizing the dark undercurrents of the late 1960s and the dangers of charismatic, manipulative leadership within cults.

Reflections on the Case: Celisia concludes by reflecting on the incomplete narratives often presented in popular accounts, emphasizing the importance of centering the victims and understanding the broader societal factors that allowed such atrocities to occur.

"It's important that we take the time to center victims and their families... to spur conversation about what we should take away." ([51:38])

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Conclusion

"The Manson Murders Part 2" offers a comprehensive and empathetic examination of one of America's most chilling criminal cases. By highlighting the victims' stories and scrutinizing the systemic failures that enabled Charles Manson's manipulations, Celisia Stanton provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the tragedy's lasting impact on society.

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Notable Quotes

• "When a house cleaner arrived at Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski's home on Cielo Drive, what she found would soon become infamous across California and around the globe." – Celisia Stanton ([04:59])

• "Susan was extremely talkative on the inside. She told her cellmates about her life in the family." – Celisia Stanton ([13:17])

• "I gave up every little bit of me to that man who demanded every little bit of me back." – Patricia Krenwinkel, New York Times ([35:20])

• "You are a human and I'm going to fight for my life one way or another. I'll have you removed if you don't stop." – Charles Manson ([35:48])

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Final Thoughts

Celisia Stanton's meticulous research and compassionate storytelling in "The Manson Murders Part 2" not only recount the grim details of the crimes but also invites listeners to ponder the deeper societal issues that contribute to such tragedies. By prioritizing the narratives of the victims and their families, the episode serves as a poignant reminder of the human cost behind headline-grabbing crimes.

Transcript

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Hi friends, I am so excited to share this new Season two episode of True O Crime with you. If you want an ad free listening experience, subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts. Hi friends. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to remind you that if you haven't already hit, follow or subscribe to True Crime on your podcast platform. Please do that right now. We're dropping bonus episodes and sharing crucial updates about the cases we cover, and following the show is the best way to make sure you don't miss anything that could help make a difference. Speaking of which, I wanted to take a moment to thank all of you who've engaged with DeForest Johnson's story from our episode two weeks ago. The response has been like literally incredible. And it shows exactly why I love this community so much. You don't just listen, you act, you care. And in cases like DeForest, where a man's life literally hangs in the balance on death row in Alabama, that engagement means everything. I'd love it if you could help us keep that momentum going by spreading even more awareness about DeForest's case. We've posted lots of shareable content about his story on our social media accounts, so if you haven't already, I'd love it if you'd consider finding us recrimepod on Instagram and Elysastanton on Instagram and TikTok to reshare some of what we've posted. When you do that, it introduces Tafora's story to new folks and shows the state of Alabama that they can't just execute an innocent man behind our backs. Of course, sharing the full episode is definitely also super helpful, but Sometimes a short TikTok video can help us spread the word more quickly. Make sure you also follow forestjohnson on Instagram to keep up with updates on his case. Look, this is what makes true crime communities truly meaningful when we go beyond just consuming stories and actually work together to create positive change. Every share, every repost, every person who learns about Tafora's story brings us one step closer to justice. I'm so grateful to have listeners like you that understand that and now let's get into Today's episode. Please be aware that today's episode contains references to sexual assault and violence. Please take care while listening. Today's Episode is a Part two, a continuation of a story I started telling you last week about the Manson Family murders. If you missed that episode, you'll want to go back and give it a listen before starting this one. But if you're all caught up, then you're in the right place. Because this is the Story of the Manson Family Murders, Part 2 I'm Celsia Stanton and you're listening to Truer Crime. When we left off, Manson had sent several of his followers on a horrific two day killing spree. And so, on the morning of August 9, 1969, when a house cleaner arrived at Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski's home on Cielo Drive, what she found would soon become infamous across California and around the globe. Al Wyman, a young ABC reporter, recalls.

[Celisia Stanton]

That day, I don't think that any of us who were there, we were the first television crew on the scene. We had no idea what we were walking into.

[Kyle Tequila]

It was there that police discovered the bodies of Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Wojczek Frykowski and Abigail Folger.

[Celisia Stanton]

Well, at the scene, we had one body in a vehicle near the gate. A man and a woman in the main room and a man and a woman on the lawn in front of the house, all deceased.

[Kyle Tequila]

The next day, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca's bodies were discovered in their home. At first, police didn't see the two cases as connected. According to the San Antonio Lawyer, drugs found at the Tate house led to an early theory that perhaps the killings had been the result of a drug deal gone sideways. Investigators even pointed the finger at Sharon Tate's groundskeeper. Police found it suspicious. Suspicious that despite having been in the guest house the night of the murders, he maintained he hadn't heard or seen anything. The groundskeeper would, of course, eventually be cleared. The labiancas murders, which were being investigated by a separate team, were believed to be the deadly result of an interrupted robbery. As ABC News reporters shared later, connected or not, the murders created an atmosphere of anxiety in the city.

[Celisia Stanton]

There was a lot of fear in la. The sale of guard dogs and guns rose dramatically overnight, and the use of security services dramatically. And particularly in the movie Colony.

[Kyle Tequila]

They were just terrified, Manson prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi would tell Newsweek. There were areas of the city where folks literally did not lock their doors at night. That ended with the Tate LaBianca murders. But the fear created by the killings would linger beyond the crime's immediate aftermath. As Vox reported, the clues left behind by the Family, the bloody messages written on walls, it all made the killing seem almost occult in nature. It was a reality that would kick off the beginnings of the 1970s satanic panic, a time marked by increased paranoia and accusations of satanic abuse. And this perception of the Manson Family's crimes, it persists today, even though the messages had been a ruse all along, a plan to pin the killings on the Black Panthers. With the investigation just beginning, tensions were brewing at Spahn Ranch. Diane Lake, who was just 14 when she joined the family, would tell ABC that she remembers being awoken from her sleep by a terrible smell in early August. Getting up, she'd find Leslie Van Houten burning a purse and other items in the fireplace. Later, she discovered that the items had been taken from the homes of the victims. Then, on August 16, just days after the murders, police raided Spahn Ranch. Terrified, Manson was convinced that the jig was up. But as it turned out, police were only there to arrest members of the Family on car theft charges. When they told Manson so, he'd reacted by Laughing. It looked like they just might get away with it. But this close call with the cops left Manson even more paranoid. Vox would report that Manson had somehow become absolutely convinced that a ranch employee named Donald Shorty Shea was an informant who would eventually lead investigators back to him. Not willing to let it get that far, he ordered members of the family to kill Donald. And sadly, on August 28, 1969, they'd do just that. Now, convinced that Spahn Ranch wasn't safe, Manson and his followers fled hundreds of miles northeast to Barker Ranch in Death Valley. The area, remote and barren, was a place Manson said they could wait out the impending race war. It was here that Diane Lake first learned about what the others had done.

[Celisia Stanton]

I was immediately whisked off to Death Valley, and Tex was there, and I had gone off, and when I came back, he had newspaper with the headlines on it. He slapped the newspaper and said, I did this. Charlie told me to. And I was extremely frightened.

[Kyle Tequila]

Diane would say they were almost proud. The ranch was very isolated. I just felt like the rocks and the trees were crying out to me that I had made a mistake. I was just hanging on because I didn't know where else to go. According to Elle, Diane remembered that the girls had a habit of recalling the grisly details of the murders. Now just 16 years old, she felt that she had nowhere to turn. And she was scared of Manson, whose paranoia had reached a fever pitch. He'd even threatened to hang her upside down and skin her alive. Diane, of course, believed him. Then, on October 12, police raided Barker Ranch, this time on charges of vandalism and theft. They'd find Manson hiding in a small, cramped cupboard. In all, they'd booked 26 members of the family. The murder investigation, which had hit a dead end, finally gained new steam when, a few days after Manson's arrest, the team investigating the LaBianca murders reached out to the LA Sheriff's Department to see if they'd run into any other cases that could possibly be connected to the labiancas. According to the San Antonio lawyer, the description of the labianca crime scene was reminiscent of another scene they'd come across in the murder of Gary Hinman, the music teacher who Manson follower Bobby Boussel had killed. The same murder we discussed last week at the end of Part one, if you remember, political piggyback had been scrawled on the wall in blood. It was similar to the message left on the wall of the LaBianca home. Death to pigs. And while Bobby Bousle had been in custody since August 6th and therefore couldn't have been responsible for the LaBianca murder. Investigators did note that before his arrest, Bobby had been living at Spahn Ranch. But whether these findings would eventually allow police to connect the dots we'll never know, because it was a completely unrelated incident that broke the case wide open. Start fresh in the New Year as you set resolutions for 2024, consider how learning a new language can enrich your life, whether through travel, career advancement or cultural appreciation.

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[Celisia Stanton]

She started saying about how stupid the police were and how they really were on the wrong, wrong track on a lot of crimes. And I do recall saying to her, well, what are you talking about? And her answer to me was, well, you know those murders up Benedict Canyon? And I said, yeah. And she said to me, well, you know who did it, don't you? And I said, no. And she says, you're looking at her.

[Kyle Tequila]

Another cellmate would say that. Susan said, it felt good the first time I stabbed Sharon Tate. And the more you murder, the better you like it. One of the cellmates called the LAPD and shared that they knew who was responsible for the Tate murders. Armed with details of the crime that weren't yet public, police immediately believed her story. It was just the break that investigators needed to make some real traction. According to the San Antonio lawyer, evidence started piling up. Fingerprints at the Tate home were matched to Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel. Bullets discovered at Spahn Ranch were matched to a murder weapon found months earlier. And an ABC news crew made a shocking discovery while driving the path the killers most likely took to flee the Tate home.

[Celisia Stanton]

Leaving from Cielo Drive, driving up Benedict Canyon, we timed ourselves and tried to place ourselves in the same position that the people would have been in that night after they left the Tate House. 6 minutes and 20 seconds of moderate driving led us to this spot. And looking over the edge of this hill, we found several pairs of blue jeans and some very dark sweatshirts. These shirts and the blue jeans appear to have stains on them. So without hesitation, I went directly across the street, used the telephone, called LAPD Homicide, and told him that I think we have found the clothes they're looking for.

[Kyle Tequila]

Yep, you heard that. Right there. Just over the edge of a hill, the reporters had found bloody clothes discarded by the killers after fleeing the murder scene. It seemed like investigators finally had Manson and his followers cornered. It would all set off a whirlwind of news coverage unlike one Los Angeles had ever seen.

[Celisia Stanton]

The men and women suspected of killing actress Sharon Tate and four others were members of a weird, sadistic hippie cult. And by writing the words pig at the scene of the crime. Apparently, the hippies were trying to throw the police off the track by blaming the murders on the Black Panthers, a group the hippies hated.

[Kyle Tequila]

By early December 1969, Los Angeles county launched a grand jury probe into the case. According to the Anaheim Bulletin, 22 witnesses testified over two days. Among them was the same person who had led investigators to the Manson family in the first place, Susan Atkins.

[Celisia Stanton]

The attorney for Ms. Atkins already has told reporters that his Client was there the night actress Sharon Tate was killed. He said Ms. Atkins saw five members of the hippie family, all dressed in black, murder Sharon Tate and four others.

[Kyle Tequila]

Upon the advice of her attorney, Richard Caballero, Susan agreed to testify, waiving her rights to self incrimination. And while this might seem risky, a deal was being struck behind the scenes. Manson prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi would tell Los Angeles magazine that if Susan cooperated, they wouldn't seek the death penalty against her. On the flip side, if she ever decided to stop cooperating, the prosecution couldn't use anything she'd told them. At first, Bugliosi didn't like the deal. Susan had already admitted to the murders, and as far as he was concerned, she'd played a central role. But with prosecutors under immense public pressure to crack the case, Susan's testimony would be critical. He took the deal. Afterwards, Susan's defense team began to paint a picture, one that depicted Manson's followers as manipulated and constantly under his control. They would tell reporters about her fear of Manson, about her beliefs that Manson was a super God who could use powers of mind control. Similarly, Linda Kasabian, another one of the accused family members, would share that she was hypnotized by Manson and afraid of his powers of black magic. According to the Quad City Times, reporters asked Susan how she felt about testifying. Dead, she replied. Susan's attorney told the Grand Island Independent that although she'd been trying to break away from Manson after her testimony, she said she felt like a marked woman. But soon the grand jury reached their decision.

[Celisia Stanton]

It took the grand jury just 20 minutes to agree that six members of the hippie tribe should be indicted in the Sharon Tate murders and those of a supermarket owner and his wife.

[Kyle Tequila]

Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, Linda Kasabian, Charles Tex Watson, Leslie Van Houten and Charles Manson were each indicted on a conspiracy charge and multiple counts of murder. And so, with Manson and five of his followers indicted, the group began planning their defense. But this preparation, it would prove complicated, riddled with delays. The prosecution requested a single trial for the six indicted family members. And they got their wish, with the exception of Tex Watson, who resisted being extradited from Texas and faced a separate trial later on. Almost immediately after the indictment, Manson submitted an unorthodox request that he be allowed to represent himself during the trial. According to NBC, despite being assigned multiple court appointed attorneys, getting Manson to accept one had proven difficult.

[Celisia Stanton]

Manson told the court, lawyers generally play with people. I am a person and I don't wish to be played with. He said more than 10 lawyers have come to his cell offering themselves, but he doesn't want them and wouldn't trust the court to appoint one.

[Kyle Tequila]

The judge would spend an hour attempting to convince Manson to accept defense counsel. But the New York Times reported he'd eventually grant Manson's request for self representation while calling it a sad and tragic mistake. According to the San Antonio lawyer, Manson used this new position to his advantage. Over the next few months, he'd file a number of shocking motions and requests, including that every case document be delivered to his jail cell and that every he received the personal information for all of the prosecution's witnesses, including their full names, phone numbers and home addresses. Prosecuting Attorney Vincent Bugliosi recounted some of this to the press.

[Celisia Stanton]

Well, he made many outlandish requests, among which was a request that the district attorneys in this case that Mr. Stolberg and I be incarcerated with him at the county jail so that it would be somewhat equalized. He also requested that he be permitted to leave the county jail, be free so that he can interview witnesses. Of course, both of these requests are totally preposterous.

[Kyle Tequila]

By March, the judge revoked the permission he'd previously given Manson to represent himself in court. According to News Pilot reporting at the time, after the judge announced Manson to receive a court appointed lawyer, he yelled out, you can kill me, but you can't give me an attorney. I won't take one. Similarly, Manson's followers sitting in the spectator section shouted their own objections, including one saying, there's no justice in your court. You are mockery. Three of these followers were held in contempt and sentenced to five days in jail. And this chaos and spectacle, well, it was only just the beginning. The court assigned Manson a new lawyer whom he'd soon replace with his own choice, Ronald Hughes, a man described as a hippie lawyer. According to Time magazine, Hughes had met Manson a year prior and was granted the role as his defense attorney after agreeing to grow a beard. Hughes, who'd failed to pass the bar exam three times, was vastly inexperienced. Eventually, Manson grew tired of Hughes and demanded Irving Kinnerec be assigned as his defense. While Hughes remained on the defense team acting as counsel for Leslie Van Houten. Canarik brought new energy to the team. As the Kitsap sun reported, Kinnarik was known as a lawyer whose style included various strategies of delay and objection. He'd caused past trials to drag on for months. And while chaos continued to unfold for the defense, the prosecution was faced with its own obstacles. While Susan Atkins grand jury testimony positioned her to be the star witness for the prosecution. This plan would soon prove tenuous. According to Los Angeles Magazine, the problem was a slew of media coverage detailing Susan's first person account of the murders. As the media stories multiplied, the chances of a polluted jury pool increased and her value as a witness diminished. But soon it would be Susan herself who'd force the prosecution to adjust their strategy. According to the Columbia Record, Manson claimed to have received word from Susan that she'd been pressured by her attorney to give a false account of events. Not long after, Susan and her attorney were granted permission to visit him in jail. According to the Ventura County Star, Susan met with Manson for 75 minutes, her lawyer, Richard Caballero, by her side. But Caballero would tell reporters that he and Manson had strong disagreements about how the defense should proceed. With no official decision made, this meeting with Manson seemed to mark a distinct shift in Susan's cooperation with prosecution. As LAPD detective Michael McGann would tell Los Angeles Magazine, Manson and Susan Atkins started communicating and she completely changed. She became very belligerent. She didn't want anything more to do with us.

[Celisia Stanton]

Now, what about Susan Atkins? What's her status in all this now? Well, as one of the. Is she gonna testify for the prosecution? As one of the prosecutors in this case, Dick, I should know the answer to that. But to be honestly truthful with you, when the bell rings, I don't know whose corner she's going to be in. Right now, she's rattling the fence. She's afraid to jump on either side because she doesn't know where she's going to land.

[Kyle Tequila]

Soon the answer would become clear. According to Time magazine, Susan requested to fire Richard Caballero and have him replaced with Dae Shin, a former advisor to Manson. Shin, who had previously worked as a used car salesman and now specialized in immigration cases for wealthy clients seeking Mexican maids, was now positioned to guide Susan through the process of walking back everything she'd previously said.

[Celisia Stanton]

Now, I understand the rumor is, and maybe you can confirm it or deny it, that she is going to deny that everything she said on the witness stand in the grand jury is true. That's correct. She's going to deny all her statements made at the grand jury.

[Kyle Tequila]

As Bugliosi would describe it to Los Angeles magazine, Susan went back to her God, Charlie. And with their star witness no longer cooperating, the prosecution needed a replacement. But luckily, another defendant, Linda Kasabian, seemed like the perfect candidate. According to the New York Times, Bugliosi had always preferred Linda as a witness because she'd been the getaway car driver and hadn't killed anyone herself. As Linda's attorney would tell Los Angeles magazine, Linda had seen them committing mayhem at the Tate house. She had driven the killers to labianca residence, but she hadn't done anything. Still, she was technically guilty of first degree murder. I told her that a deal was the only way out. She initially didn't want to do that. These were her soulmates, no matter what they'd done. But I told her, you're broke, you're pregnant, and you were there. You must become a prosecution witness. A very strange confluence of events had occurred. They needed Linda Kasabian and she needed them. They gave her total immunity. It was a deal even better than the one Susan Atkins had been offered. Linda wouldn't just avoid the death penalty, she'd walk free. Now, after months of delays, it was finally time. The trial was set to begin. Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly. And with award winning antivirus, you get top tier hacker protection. Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage. All for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply. Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life at Capella University. Our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat.

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[Kyle Tequila]

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[Celisia Stanton]

In this world, stop with Mint.

[Kyle Tequila]

You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments.

[Celisia Stanton]

But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway.

[Kyle Tequila]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] it was June of 1970 and the Manson trial was finally underway. It would start with jury selection. 12 individuals and 5 alternates who would spend the next 9 months moving from the courtroom to a sequestered hotel. To prevent bias, their televisions were monitored and newspapers were removed. But keeping them away from reports of the trial would prove difficult, as the next nine months quickly became as infamous as the murders themselves. Watching old newscasts from the time is. It's hard not to get caught up in the spectacle of the case even now. In my research for this story, I spent hours watching archival footage, each frame filled with reporters. Microphones pointed in from every angle as NBC News would report. The chance to watch the trial live was, however, paradoxically enticing. Tempting even.

[Celisia Stanton]

People who are curious about the Tate murders wait in long lines for the chance to witness the trial of Charles manson and the three girls accused of the five killings. Some people get to the courthouse at 4am six hours before the court convenes each day. Most of them are young. Some travel hundreds of miles. And many of them come here because they want to see for themselves what Charles Manson and his girl followers are really like.

[Kyle Tequila]

Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi would tell La Mag that folks gasped when Manson entered court on the first day. In the middle of his forehead, he'd carved an X. After the day's proceedings, a reporter from the AP questioned defense lawyers about the mark.

[Celisia Stanton]

It appears that he has a scab in the form of an X on his forehead, in blood. It apparently was done with a razor blade. Manson has taken the position that that is a symbolic gesture indicating that he has X'd himself out of society at large.

[Kyle Tequila]

But what I found most interesting about what Manson had done was that he wasn't alone. In fact, several of the Manson girls would follow suit, carving their own exes to match. His family members not on trial had paraded outside the courthouse passing out copies of a statement from Manson himself. I've Xed myself from your world, he'd said. Your courtroom is man's game. Love is my judge. By the next week of trial, the three other female defendants had taken hot bobby pins to their heads to carve their own exes. The prosecution had entered the trial confidently. Sure, but the Manson family was as devoted as ever. A group of his followers posted up outside the courthouse day after day, their mere presence and unspoken promise of their solidarity. But they weren't just interested in silent symbolism. They loved talking with the press. There was one clip from KTLA News I found especially interesting. In it, four young women are kneeling on the sidewalk. They look pleased, even happy. One girl holds A reporter's mic as they all sing in unison.

[Celisia Stanton]

A dancing clown upon the wall it's calling all to City Hall Where a grave is can't you see it's your kind to be free?

[Kyle Tequila]

These girls would become a spectacle of their own, an always available tourist attraction for interested onlookers and interview fodder for journalists. On one occasion, they'd even crawl on their hands and knees for 10 miles through the streets of LA. When asked, they shared that they were crawling in witness to the second coming of Manson. But it wasn't just the Manson girls outside who were willing to continue standing by him. Inside, the three women on trial would create strange spectacles of their own, holding hands and singing. As they clicked down the hallways of the courthouse, Susan, Patricia and Leslie presented a united front still aligned closely with Manson. But why, I'd wondered. Well, turns out, like so many things in this case, the answer to that question is complicated. We talked about some of this in part one. The girls difficult upbringings, a sense of belonging they found within the Family, the heavy drug use, Manson's strategic manipulation tactics, and all of it applied to these three young women who were now facing the death penalty. Decades later. Patricia Krenwinkel told the New York Times that by the time she was on trial, she just accepted everything she'd been told since joining the Family, saying, I gave up every little bit of me to that man who demanded every little bit of me back. Then, she added, the choice felt easy because not accepting Manson meant she'd have to truly face everything that had happened. And for Patricia, that process of looking back at her life and taking responsibility for her actions, it would be incredibly painful. So instead, the girls stuck to what they knew, continuing to trust the man they still believed had their best interests at heart. And this devotion to Manson, well, it wasn't overlooked by the prosecution. Going into the trial, Bugliosi's strategy was clear. He believed unequivocally that despite not having ever pulled a trigger, Manson was to blame for the murders. That it was he who'd been the mastermind and ordered the deaths of seven innocent people. And the key to that strategy was getting the jury to understand Manson's vision of an impending race war. Helter Skelter, he felt, was central. He'd recount the theory to the Associated Press.

[Celisia Stanton]

To ignite Helter Skelter, to start the black white revolution. Manson envisioned that white people would turn against the black man if they thought the black man had committed these seven murders. And ultimately there would be a civil war. Between blacks and whites out in the street. Manson told his followers that this would be a bloodbath in the streets of every American city. Manson foresaw that the black man would win this war. But later on, he said the black man, because of inexperience, would simply not be able to handle the reins of power. So he would have to look around at those white people who had survived, who had escaped from Helter Skelter. In other words, turn over the reins of power to Charles Manson and his family. In his twisted mind, he envisioned that he and his family would be the ultimate beneficiaries of a black, white civil war.

[Kyle Tequila]

And how did it all connect to the victims? Bugliosi would contend it wasn't personal.

[Celisia Stanton]

Why the labiancas and the persons in the Tate house, why were they selected by Manson as well? You have to realize that if you're going to have a bizarre motive like this, it doesn't really make any difference who the victims are, except the victims, by necessity, had to be white and preferably in the white establishment. But other than that, there was no particular reason.

[Kyle Tequila]

Bugliosi would later write, quote, ordinarily, I try to avoid repetitious testimony in a trial knowing it can antagonize the jury. However, Manson's Helter Skelter motive was so bizarre that I knew if it was expounded by only one witness, no juror would ever believe it. He also knew that painting Manson as the mastermind meant the jury had to understand that his orders to kill weren't the first time he'd exercised authority over his followers. On the contrary, these orders were the last and a long record of controlling behavior. According to the LA Times, he'd call Manson a polished, sophisticated con man with a thousand faces. On the witness stand, former family members would detail the ritualistic orgies governed by Manson.

[Celisia Stanton]

He was calling all the shots at that sex orgy. He was the one that was deciding when the orgy would commence, who would touch whom. There was no sexual activity until he gave that instruction. We are offering this as one further indication of Manson's power and control and dominion over that family.

[Kyle Tequila]

But the prosecution didn't present their case without disruption. According to ksbw, Manson and the three women were so unable to contain their distaste that they'd often be removed by the judge, sent to a nearby room where the audio of the trial was piped in. But the defendant's anger wasn't limited to the prosecution's performance. KTLA reporters would speak with Manson's lawyer following One of these particularly contentious days.

[Celisia Stanton]

Let me ask you this now. Yesterday, Charlie shouted at you to sit down, that you weren't proving a point or some such thing. Did this throw you off at all? Well, Harry Truman made the statement, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. And law is a very unusual process, and you're a very unusual attorney. Thank you. Thank you.

[Kyle Tequila]

An article from the New York Times describes a particularly explosive day after a witness was questioned. Manson had begun mumbling to himself before yelling at the judge, are you going to use this courtroom to kill me? Ignoring the judge's request for silence, Manson continued, the minute you find me guilty, you know what I'm going to do to you, don't you? What are you going to do? The judge replied. You know, said Manson. Again, Manson was asked to stop speaking. Instead, he yelled back, you order me to be quiet while you kill me in your courtroom. I'm a human and I'm going to fight for my life one way or another. I'll have you removed if you don't stop. The judge responded, I'll have you removed if you don't stop. I have a little system of my own. A pause, and then from Manson, you think I'm kidding? Clutching a pencil and raising it like a weapon, he threw himself across the defense table towards the judge. Someone should cut your head off, old man, he'd hollered. Observers would report that the judge didn't even flinch. But these violent outbursts seemed punctuated by other unusual behaviors. KTLA would interview one of the trial artists about Manson's emotional reactions during the proceedings.

[Celisia Stanton]

Well, he's, from an artistic standpoint, he's a man of a thousand faces. He has more expressions on his face than possibly anyone I've ever really observed before. He can be very angry and then at the same time, a little later, maybe express a very gentle quality. It's amazing, really, to watch that Manson's.

[Kyle Tequila]

Ever changing moods and mere presence in the courtroom felt intimidating for former family members who'd agreed to testify on behalf of the prosecution. Diane Lake, still just a minor, would share on a talk show named Scovillin that when it was her turn, suddenly everything came into focus.

[Celisia Stanton]

And I was really afraid. I mean, up until that moment, I was really afraid, was he going to be able to get into my head and make me say or do things that I didn't want to do? And he didn't. One of the first questions they asked me was, did you love Charlie Manson? And I said, yes, I Did? I guess so. And he immediately jumped up and said, don't put it all on Mr. Manson. She loved everybody.

[Kyle Tequila]

So, you know, it was just.

[Celisia Stanton]

He was playing to the crowd. I just could see that he was just a con.

[Kyle Tequila]

But the prosecution's real star witness would be Linda Kasabian, the Family member who'd been granted immunity in exchange for her testimony. She'd held the key to the state's case, and Manson knew it. The prosecution would claim that Linda had been the victim of a slew of intimidation tactics by the Family. They'd recount to KTLA reporters one particular incident where they say a Manson follower had passed a threatening note to Linda.

[Celisia Stanton]

Shouldn't say. She attempted to smuggle a note. She handed a note to Charles Melton, who was with me, and he gave it to Linda. We've never kept anything from. From Linda that they've sent in. I'm tired of it. I think it's time they let her do as she pleases. They've attempted for months now, even going so far as to sit down in front of my law office to intimidate her and me. I got a phone call a couple of weeks ago from a guy about 8:30. He says if Linda Kasabian takes the witness stand, neither of you will ever leave the courtroom. And I says, if you're gonna threaten me, do it during office hours. I'm tired of it at night. This is just another example of this kind of. Of damn foolishness. There's nothing we can do about it. It was upsetting to Linda right before she went on the stand. I was followed all the way upstairs to where she was. And she tried to force her way in and screamed out something to Linda which was incoherent. And we're just bloody tired of it, period.

[Kyle Tequila]

KTLA would eventually find the defense team asking them to weigh in on the allegations of intimidation.

[Celisia Stanton]

You don't think they would try to influence her by looks, by signals, by standing in the corner courtroom and saying anything? Well, I think the prosecution feels that the mere presence of some of Linda Kasabian's contemporaries and contemporaries of Manson and Van Houten and Krenwinkel would intimidate her? I. I suggest that if she's telling the truth, they don't have any problems. Yesterday, you know, one of the Family members did attempt to smuggle a note to Linda. It seems to me that is a form of intimidation validation. I'm not aware of that. Sandra Good attempted to deliver a note to Linda on the ninth floor yesterday. Afternoon.

[Kyle Tequila]

I'm not aware of that. The defense attorney would repeat again. Linda would later testify that when she first got on the stand, Manson had locked eyes with her, making a throat slitting motion. But despite all of this, Linda would testify. In fact, according to the New York Times, she'd spend a total of 18 days on the witness stand detailing what life had been like living under Manson's control. He's just had something, you know, that could hold you. It seemed that the girls worshiped him, just would die to do anything for him, she'd testified. She'd also divulge the brutal details of what she witnessed on the first night of the murders. Ugliosi would describe her testimony to KTLA reporters.

[Celisia Stanton]

I said that these murders were perhaps the most bizarre, savage, nightmarish murders in the recorded annals of crime. And I think that Linda Kasavian's testimony on that witness stand today illustrated what I was saying in my opening statement. She was filled with emotion in describing the first night of horror, the first night of terror. There's no words to describe what she was saying. And only she was there that night. She heard the unbelievable screams, the pleading, the begging. How do you define, how do you describe what happened that night, other than in her. Her words?

[Kyle Tequila]

According to the Guardian, she'd go on to testify that Manson was dissatisfied with the murders at the Tate home. So the next night he'd lead the group on a random search for more victims so he could, quote, show them how to do it. So why was it that Linda hadn't come forward sooner? Fear and mistrust of the police, she'd share. It was a theme that seemed common among many former family members. In all, the prosecution's case was massive and took months to fully lay out. In addition to the testimonies of former family members, they'd present the statements from the cellmate Susan Atkins had confessed to and a slew of physical evidence. The defense, on the other hand, didn't seem to be faring well. When they were given time to cross examine the prosecution's witnesses, disagreements and stylistic differences among the defense team posed significant challenges. According to Time magazine, one of the more experienced lawyers would start with a line of strategic questions. But then any traction would quickly be lost as the intervening attorney would clumsily run through a list of questions that sometimes even made the prosecution's witnesses look good. By contrast, the prosecution seemed polished. And as they continued building their case, Manson's stunts pressed forward as well. After then, President Nixon made public comments expressing his belief in Manson's guilt. The nation was abuzz with the news. While Nixon would retract his statements, defense attorneys asked for a mistrial, believing the jury could now be prejudiced against their defendant. While the judge denied their quest. That didn't stop Manson from attending court the next day with a copy of the LA Times. In bold black letters, the headline read Manson Guilty. Nixon declares. Manson began waving the paper in the air, hoping it might catch the eyes of the jury. The defense team again urged the judge to issue a mistrial. But after interviewing the jurors about what they'd seen, Judge Older denied the motion. Despite all the stunts that would occur throughout the trial, the arguments continued. When all was said and done, prosecutors had called 84 witnesses and introduced virtually 300 exhibits outside. Manson followers shared their disdain with AP reporters.

[Celisia Stanton]

You know what? The prosecution has spent eight months presenting one side. The press has been the mouthpiece of the prosecution and they've succeeded in brainwashing a lot of people into believing everything that Bugliosi has presented. His so called race war theory. Charlie never preached a race war. He's seen that the people that have been on the bottom, it's time for them to come to the top. You know, the revolution's on eight months of one side the public has heard and nothing else. They've thrown the Constitution in the waste basket. From the very beginning, there has not been one single right, constitutional right granted to these people.

[Kyle Tequila]

Eventually it will be the defense's turn to present a case. And Manson had a clear plan on how to win. His strategy. Have the three girls testify explaining that Manson was innocent, that he wasn't there the night of the murders, that they had chosen to do everything on their own. Susan, Leslie and Patricia were ready to go along with Manson's plan, but their lawyers were not. In their eyes, the girls confessions would present a lose lose situation for the defense. It would secure their conviction and make it clear to the jury that Manson was a manipulative person who exercised extreme power over the actions of his followers. Finally, Manson announced he would take the stand. And he proceeded to speak to the judge first without the jury present. And while no audio recording of this testimony exists, I found a few excerpts on the UMKC School of Law website. And there's one portion in particular that stood out to me. He starts out by saying that because he never went to school, he never learned to read or write. That he spent most of his time in jail where he felt like an observer rather than a participant in the outside world. Continuing, he said, most of the People at the ranch that you call the family were just people that you did not want. People that were alongside the road that their parents had kicked out, did not want to go to juvenile hall. So I did the best I could and I took them up on my garbage dump and told them that in love, there is no wrong. Something that Nixon should have been doing. He should have been on the side of the road picking up his children, but he wasn't. He was in the White House sending them off to the war. But I know this, that in your hearts and your own souls, you are as much responsible for the Vietnam War as I am for killing these people. My father is the jailhouse. My father is your system. I am only what you made me. I am only a reflection of you. I have done my best to get along in your world. And now you want to kill me. You want to kill me.

[Celisia Stanton]

Ha.

[Kyle Tequila]

I'm already dead. Have been all my life. I spent 23 years in tombs that you built. Truthfully, reading this part of Manson's testimony is alarming. Among the chaos and nonsense and violence and manipulation is something harder to face, a small sliver of truth. In some ways, Manson and his family were an outgrowth of systems that can fail people. And while none of Manson's horrific actions could ever be justified, it brought up a feeling that was complicated for me to sit with, that our communities rely on structures that can enable unimaginable atrocities. But as it turned out, none of what Manson said that day would matter. Because when asked by the judge if he'd like to share his testimony with the jury, he simply replied, I've already relieved all the pressure I had. And so, incredibly, the jury would hear zero witnesses from the defense, according to the Los Angeles Times. Instead, they'd rely almost entirely on their final argument, spending several days attempting to raise doubt about the validity of the prosecution's case. Soon, the jury would begin deliberating. According to Rolling Stone, they had only two requests to visit the murder scene and to be able to listen to the White Album. It would take them nine days to return their verdict.

[Celisia Stanton]

Yesterday, the seven man, five woman jury reached a decision on the ultimate fate of Charles Manson and his three female co defendants. Guilty of murder, guilty of conspiracy, all of which carry a possible death sentence.

[Kyle Tequila]

Outside the courthouse, captured by NBCLA reporters, Manson's followers reacted to the court's decision. You've heard the verdicts.

[Celisia Stanton]

How do you feel now? What are you going to do now? You've all judged yourselves poorly. Are you guys proud of a system where A man cannot defend himself. Are you proud of it? He'll be out. The revolution. What do you mean by a revolution? A bloody revolution. When's the revolution come? Well, we haven't scheduled it. It's not our revolution. Black man's gonna judge this world for every blow he's received. For every blow, every person that's been stepped on by the system, it's gonna all come back to you all at once.

[Kyle Tequila]

But no matter their belief and devotion, the Manson followers would soon have to deal with a new reality. The revolution would never happen. And Manson would never be free again.

[Celisia Stanton]

Today, the judge formally passed sentence on Charles Manson and his girls. The death penalty, he said, for seven senseless murders. He said not only was the sentence appropriate, but almost compelled in this case. So death in the gas chamber, he said.

[Kyle Tequila]

Eventually, Tex Watson, the final Manson Family member involved in the murders, would also stand trial. According to the Los Angeles Times, Linda Kasabian would once again testify as a prosecution witness. Tex was convicted and sentenced to death alongside Manson, Susan, Patricia and Leslie. According to Curbed, Spahn allowed many of the family members to continue staying at the ranch despite the guilty verdict. But they'd eventually scatter. And while some would face new criminal charges, trials and jail time, nothing would come close to the spectacle of the Tate LaBianca murder trial. And despite the passing of decades, the public's fascination with the Manson family has remained steadfast. In 1972, after the California Supreme Court ruled the death penalty unconstitutional, the former family member's sentences were all converted to life in prison. And with so much time spent on the inside, a lot has changed. Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel are both still in prison today. Patricia is the longest incarcerated woman in California. She has spent more time locked in a cell than any other woman in the state. In an interview with the New York Times, she shared that she continues to grapple with the decision she made as a young woman.

[Celisia Stanton]

The thing I try to remember sometimes is that what I am today is not what I was at 19. At 23, I ended up on death row. I was in a cell 23 hours a day. I was going to have to make the decision of my life. And I would have to say that everything I had ever believed was now wrong. To do that was going to be the most difficult thing I'd ever done because I would now have to be fully responsible for the damage, the wreckage and the horror. But there's something that comes with that little bit that says every day, okay, I did that. But why did I do that, and it's pulling apart, this enmeshed garbage, pulling apart. Who am I?

[Kyle Tequila]

Who is he?

[Celisia Stanton]

Where am I in this? And then recreating the person. And there is a freedom in that to finally recreate that today. I am who I choose to be. I take responsibility every day for every word I say, what I believe, what I do. I am who I am today. I learn choice. I learn choice at the most horrific cost.

[Kyle Tequila]

But it's not just the mental reminders. In the years since the brutal murders, the former Manson girls must also live with the physical manifestations of what they'd done all those years ago. In an ABC interview I watched with Leslie Van Houten, the X that she'd once carved into her forehead was still visible, the scar she hoped would one day be indistinguishable on an aged face. The mental pain she shared only gets more challenging with time.

[Celisia Stanton]

How do you live with knowing that was inside of you? It's not easy. If anything, the older I get, the harder it is. Mrs. LaBianca was younger than I am now. I took away all that life.

[Kyle Tequila]

According to SF Gate, while in prison, Leslie earned a master's degree in counseling. She'd used those skills to lead several programs for inmates. And In July of 2023, after serving 53 years for the murders of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca, Leslie was released on parole, a decision victims families described to news outlets as painful and angering. For other former family members not sentenced to prison, the heaviness of their involvement continued to haunt them. Before she died in 2023, Linda Kasabian would share with the History Channel that she could never accept the fact that she was not punished for her involvement in the tragedy. I felt then what I feel now, she said always and forever that it was a waste of life that had no reason, no rhyme. It was wrong, and it hurt a lot of people. But despite what has seemed like an acceptance of responsibility from several former followers, Manson himself would remain almost frozen in time. According to Vox, while locked up, he joined the Aryan Brotherhood, a white supremacist neo Nazi prison gang. He spent much of his time causing disruptions and getting discipline for rule violations. At some point, he'd even transformed the X on his head into a swastika, telling KCRA reporters, it was his symbol.

[Celisia Stanton]

Whatever country or nation or people or cause has always had a symbol. And that's your symbol. That's mine.

[Kyle Tequila]

He died in prison in November of 2017. And you know, as I read about where everyone had ended up I wondered about what had become of Spahn Ranch, the once movie set that had been the Manson Family's home base during the height of their twisted delusions. I came across a piece written by Hadley Mears for Curb that describes it exactly what I was looking for. There's nothing left of the ranch, Hadley writes, but by the creek bed, there's a tree with a rusted chain, twisted metal that looks like a sink, and a rock formation of an X matching the X that Manson and his followers carved into their foreheads. During the trial, there are beer cans strewn about, a cave the Family took an infamous picture in where someone has carved into a small boulder Manson Family cave. The public memory, I thought, feels a lot like this abandoned ranch. There's evidence, you know, a random assortment of memories and relics that remind us things happened here. But like at Spahn Ranch, the nuances are eroded with time. And from the scraps, we can tell almost any story we want. Sensational, clickable, unnuanced, incomplete. As I considered what I knew about the Manson family before I began my research, none of it had anything to do with racism or the manipulation of young women. To be completely honest, before researching this story, I knew almost nothing about the innocent people Manson targeted. So I've spent a lot of time wondering why that is, why everything I'd heard about this story could have been boiled down to crazy hippie cult goes on random murder spree. And none of that is to imply that this telling, that my telling, is complete. While writing these episodes, nothing was more apparent to me than just how incomplete this version is. But more than anything, I believe that reexamining the stories we share most often is essential to remind ourselves what is left out and to spur conversation about what we should take away. So what do we take away? I think for me, it's a little different every time I think about it. Sometimes it's an example of how racism, embedded as it is, is dangerous for all of us. Sometimes it's a reminder that no one is exempt from manipulation, that staying plugged into our humanity requires our vigilance. And sometimes it just feels important to bear witness, to take note of where we've been, to help guide where we're going. Before you click off to another podcast, I want to direct you to one other thing I want you to check out. Look. The story of Charles Manson and the Manson family murders is one that's so easily sensationalized. It's a reality that often puts all the focus on Manson himself. But to me, it's important that we take the time to center victims and their families, that we make an effort to learn about the people they were and the lives they lived outside of the tragic events that define their deaths. So I wanted to tell you about a documentary called Jay Sebring Cutting to the Truth. It's directed and produced by Jay's nephew, Anthony Di Maria, and it follows Jay's life and career, highlighting his work as a pioneer in the industry of men's style and hair. At the time of recording this episode, Jay Sebrand Cutting to the Truth is available for free on multiple streaming platforms and I hope you'll check it out to keep up with Truer Crime and support our work. Follow us on Instagram and xrewerchrimepod to keep up with me, check me out on Instagram and TikTok Alicia Stanton and subscribe to my weekly newsletter SincerelyCelecia at SincerelySlecia.substack.com for a full list of sources and resources related to today's episode, check out this episode's show [e-mail] True or Crime is created, hosted and written by me, Celisia Stanton and is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Additional writing and research by Olivia Hussingfeld. Executive producers are myself, Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Additional production by Olivia Hussingfeld and Jamie Albright. Editing by Liam Luxon with additional editing support by Sydney Evans and Jaja Muhammad. Our Supervising producer is Tracey kaplan. Artwork by Station 16 Original music by Jay Ragsdale mix by Dayton Cole. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA Back Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. For more podcasts like Truer Crime, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at Tenderfoot tv. Thanks for listening thanks for listening to this Season two episode of True or Crime. If you want an ad free version of this show and other great shows from Tenderfoot TV, you can subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts. What if your favorite book club also dove into true crime, psychology and the wild realities of life? That's exactly what you're gonna get with Books with your Besties, a podcast where two best friends of 23 years bring their humor, heart and smarts to the mic. Dr. Reeder, a psychology professor who teaches about the darkest corners of human behavior like cults, serial killers and the psychology of crime, delivers mind blowing insights on every topic. Her best friend? She's the lively, no holds barred storyteller who keeps things fun, real and laugh out loud relatable. Whether they're breaking down a gripping thriller, exploring true crime cases, or tackling thought provoking topics like justice and human nature, every single episode blends depth, humor and honestly, the kind of chemistry that only 23 years of friendship can create. If you love thrillers, true crime and smart, entertaining discussions, Books with your besties is your next favorite podcast. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts.