← Truer Crime
Truer Crime
“They Didn’t Write That Sh*t When He Was Alive” — Anthony DiMaria is Setting the Record Straight About the Manson Murders
00:54:19
Loading summary
Transcript54 lines
- [00:02]
Celicia Stanton
You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.
- [00:09]
Payne
Do you say data or data? My family says data and I've noticed it's a word we use a lot because data is something we rely on. For the longest time, I thought paying a fortune on my monthly data plan was normal. That was until I heard about Mint Mobile and their premium wireless plans that start at just 15 bucks a month. Mint Mobile runs on the largest 5G network and all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text. Making the switch to Mint Mobile has cut my monthly bill in half and the icing on the cake. I'm getting better service and connectivity than ever before paired with high speed data or data? Your choice. No matter how you say it, don't overpay it. Shop data plans@mintmobile.com tenderfoot that's mintmobile.com tenderfoot upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first 3 then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra CMIT Mobile for details.
- [01:12]
Anthony Di Maria
Hey it's Payne. A lot of you have asked for it and now it's here. We officially have merch from some of your favorite shows. We just introduced our exclusive line of T shirts featuring designs inspired by our top podcasts like Radio Rental, High, Strange, up and Vanished and more. To celebrate the launch of our new merch store, for a limited time, we're going to give you 20% off of all T shirts. Just go to shop Tinderfoot TV. That's shop Tinderfoot TV. Then use the promo code TFTV20. That's TFTV20 at checkout right now we have exclusive pre orders and limited edition designs from your favorite shows, so don't miss your chance to grab them. For 20% off, visit Shop Tenderfoot TV. And don't forget to use the promo code TFTV20.
- [02:04]
Celicia Stanton
Hi friends. I'm so excited to share this new Season 2 episode of True or Crime with you. If you want an ad free listening experience, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus@TenderfootPlus.com or on Apple Podcasts. Hi friends. Welcome to this special bonus episode of True or Crime. Today I'm speaking with someone who has a deeply personal connection to one of the most infamous cases we've covered, Anthony Di Maria, the nephew of Jay Sebring. Jay was one of the five victims of the 1969 Manson family murders at actress Sharon Tate's home, but Anthony has worked tirelessly to show that Jay's story is so much more than the way he died. Anthony is an actor and producer with a long career in film and television. He's also the director of the 2020 documentary Jay Sebring Cutting to the Truth, which reframes his uncle not as a crime scene footnote, but as as a pioneer in men's style and grooming whose influence can still be felt today and beyond the screen. Anthony has become an outspoken advocate for victims families, showing up at parole hearings for Manson family members to speak not just for Jay, but for all the victims. In the wake of Netflix's new documentary, the Manson Murders, it's clear that this case is still front and center in our cultural imagination. That's part of what made me want to connect with Anthony and share this conversation now, because how we remember stories like this matters. And who gets to tell them matters, too. In our conversation, Anthony shares powerful memories of his uncle, what it was like growing up in the shadow of this crime, and how decades of sensationalized storytelling have distorted the truth not just about Jay, but about the Manson family itself. We get into everything from Anthony's fight to reclaim his uncle's legacy to what it's like going toe to toe with the people responsible for his death and why he thinks it's dangerous to frame the Manson killers as simply victims of mind control. It's raw, emotional, and eye opening, and I am so grateful to Anthony for trusting me with it. So let's get into it. Thanks so much for being here, Anthony. I am super grateful to have the opportunity to chat with you, and I wanted to start by talking a little bit more about how we connected. You reached out to me via email after hearing True Crime's coverage of the Manson case, and I immediately knew that I wanted to dive deeper into the story with you. So I am curious to hear from you. What led you to reach out?
- [04:30]
Anthony Di Maria
Someone had alerted me to your podcast and that you had mentioned Sebring documentary. And so I looked it up, and I was really appreciative of that. But I looked into you further because typically, a lot of podcasts, especially true crime podcasts, it tends to focus on the murders and the killers and treat the victims almost as if they're peripheral footnotes or if they're some props in the mass pedaling of their own slaughters. And that certainly was the case with my uncle and all the victims of these. The Manson crimes. So when I looked into you further, I thought, here is somebody that is an outlier, and you really give genuine regard to the victims. And I Don't think that we can understand true crime or any kind of notorious, sensational, historical crime unless we really understand more about the victims culturally, especially in these historical cases. So that's when I was compelled to reach out to you, because I've not seen anyone have that regard before.
- [05:31]
Celicia Stanton
Wow. Well, I really appreciate that. I think your perspective is so important, not just as a family member of a murder victim, but like also of a case that's been so widely publicized and retold, you kind of had to experience these retellings throughout your entire life. So I'm curious about your personal experience. I know that you were young when Jay was killed, but what do you remember and also what are your general memories of Jay and of your family from that time?
- [06:00]
Anthony Di Maria
I was three when he was killed, when Jay was killed. And I think that for some people, they might have a hard time comprehending how Jay would be so indelible in my mind. But then they never met Jay. And anyone who knew Jay, they were taken with his charisma, how dynamic he was. He was a very good looking guy. He had really a sense of self expression. And that was one of his talents as a hair designer for these Hollywood actors, is to bring out the best in them because he knew it so well, because he brought out the best in himself. So when he would come to Las Vegas, we would like run in the front yard or the backyard and he would chase me, and he would let me chase him. I felt like it was my new really cool best friend. And so one day I was looking at the photo album of him and I asked my mother when, when I could see him again. And that was a seminal moment to see the pain that I caused my own mother. There was a real pain that a child is not used to seeing a mother or a father have. So that hit me like a ton of bricks. And, and, and I felt that I'd never wanted to cause my mother that pain again. She explained, well, you can't see him again. He's in heaven. But from that moment, I was like pulled into a vortex. And I looked at his picture and I looked into his eyes and I was like, why can't I see you? I want to see you again. I want to know you. I want to know everything about you. And so that was something that was a seminal moment that stayed with me my entire life. But also there was a couple of memories that give some context to the question. And I remember we had a babysitter and the news was going on and I didn't really realize it was about my uncle's murder. But the babysitter, my parents, you know, they kind of protect their children. You know, they don't want. Oh, you know, they don't. They're not explaining these types of incomprehensible things to it. A young kid.
- [07:56]
Celicia Stanton
Right, Right.
- [07:57]
Anthony Di Maria
But my babysitter was watching the news and my parents weren't there. And she goes, wow, you guys are famous. And I didn't know what that meant. And so these were some of the things that they become ingrained in your experience again, maybe unconsciously, but what was a very personal and private tragedy for our family, it was being played out on global stages and platforms as a form of entertainment.
- [08:25]
Celicia Stanton
Right.
- [08:25]
Anthony Di Maria
And so we never, as a family, and I would include the other victims families. It's like, there's no breath. We're not allowed to mourn in private. We're not allowed to go through what maybe is. I don't know, what you would call a natural process of grieving. But constantly we're. We're hit with these crimes and the news reports and the salacious reports and the books, the magazines, and now the podcasts and TV shows and movies and people wearing Manson shirts and Charlie's angel shirts and Guns N Roses at lead singers wearing a Manson shirt. So we're constantly reminded of this.
- [09:06]
Celicia Stanton
Do you feel like you remember when you first really understood what had actually happened to Jay, that it wasn't some natural death, but something truly horrific and very public?
- [09:17]
Anthony Di Maria
I was blessed with great grandparents and parents, and they, as I got old enough, they would slowly share with me. And then I also kind of went on my own journey to read up. So my first experience of kind of ripping, getting my teeth kicked in is when I read Helter Skelter, which is.
- [09:39]
Celicia Stanton
The book written by Bugliosi. Right, the Manson prosecutor.
- [09:43]
Anthony Di Maria
Correct, Vincent Bugliosi. And he was the lead Prosecutor. And only 20 or 30 pages are devoted to the victims. And it was almost like a kind of, okay, obligatory, we're going to address the victims, because that's what we got to do. So I started reading about my uncle, and it was embarrassing. He described somebody who almost is living beyond his means to somehow keep up with the Hollywood Joneses. And I'm reading these things in kind of in like, maybe fourth grade. Fifth. And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, my uncle was nothing like I thought he was. He's actually a pretentious, pitiful, creepy fop. And when I read this, it really disturbed me, and it made me feel Should I not be proud of my uncle? Should I not tell anyone that my uncle was somebody extraordinary? And I had to know the truth. I had to know whether I liked it or not. And I even had that conversation with myself. Whether I like it or not, I need to know the truth. And I remember a couple of experiences when I would tell some of my really good friends about my uncle and I was bragging, essentially, he's Hollywood and he's really this guy defi, you know, doing all these amazing things. Oh, wow, that's cool. Okay, yeah. Well, where is he? Is he still there? Well, no, he's actually, he was killed in what people called, you know, the Manson murders. And they would go, wow, that's trip, man. Whoa, that's almost saying, that's cool. And I looked at them and I thought, man, I don't really respect you anymore because you're not impressed as much with the accomplishments of my uncle. But you're titillated by somehow that he was killed in these notorious murders. So I quietly went on this quest to read everything I could to do research. And that's what I read Time magazine saying that he was anti Negro. And again, that was another kick in the teeth. Like what? What do you mean? Like, what are you talking? What's the proof?
- [11:52]
Celicia Stanton
That was the language of Time magazine, that Jay was an anti Negro person.
- [11:57]
Anthony Di Maria
Yes, he had violent, this is verbatim that he had, quote, violent convictions. And then in parentheses, especially anti Negro. So now I'm reading by Time magazine that my uncle is a pretentious fop. He's a creepy pervert, he's a drug dealer, he's a drug addict, he's a racist now, and he's in massive debt and he's all these things. And so I said to my father, dad, I'm reading these things that don't add up. It's not in our family. It's a God of the blue. And how could, why, why would they even write it if it wasn't actually somehow true? And he said, anthony, I can tell you this now. My dad's a Detroit guy and you know, he grew up in the streets and he says it the way it is, but he's also one of the wisest people I know. But he said, I knew your uncle as good as a brother in law could. And you know, when people go back and they're in their own circles in Hollywood, who knows, maybe there was an aspect of him that I didn't know about that your family, that our family didn't know about, but we didn't know any of this stuff, he says. But I'm going to tell you something, Anthony. He goes, remember this, they didn't write that shit when he was alive. They didn't write that shit when he was alive. And then I read the testimony that he fought, not protested verbally, aggressively, fought back and charged Watson when he had his back turned to him, a man who had a gun and a bayonet in his hands, and two other individuals who had hunting knives. And so eventually what became I need to know him. I want to know the truth. I started seeing red flags of wait a minute. There appears to be a pattern here. Two different men, Jay Sebring, the man who lived, and Jay Sebring, a man portrayed as he lay defenseless in his grave. And that's when I realized Jay's story needs to be told.
- [14:02]
Nourish
Looking to improve your diet in the new year? Try seeing a personal dietitian with Nourish Nourish has hundreds of dietitians who specialize in a variety of health concerns including weight loss, gut health, and more. Meet with your dietitian online and message them anytime through the Nourish app. Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans. 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Find your personal dietitian@usenourish.com that's usenourish.com.
- [14:34]
Symbiotica
One.
- [14:34]
Instacart
Of my goals for 2025 is to get a head start on all of these podcast episodes I need to do. But on top of that, I really want to prioritize my own self care. I've been taking Symbiotica's liposomal glutathione and vitamin C for my skin and really, I just love their products. They make it really easy to stay healthy and feel good. Not to mention they have a ton of delicious flavors. Sometimes I even like to sneak a little vanilla cream magnesium at night for a little dessert before bed. It really helps me sleep, it helps my memory and it helps me focus. What's so cool about Symbiotica is the quality of their products. They're free from seed oils, preservatives, toxins, or any artificial additives that are usually found in supplements. You're only getting the good stuff that your body actually craves. Knowing that Symbiotica's formulas are clean, intentionally sourced and just what I need to feel healthy makes me really feel safe. What makes it even easier to stay consistent is is their convenient monthly subscription service that helps you never run out of your health boosting essentials. Help Establish a healthier you in 2025 with this awesome deal we have for you. High quality holistic wellness right at your fingertips. Be present and feel your best for life's most memorable moments. Go to symbiotica.com UAV for 20% off your order plus free shipping today. That's symbiotica.com UAV For 20% off your order plus free Shipping today.
- [16:08]
Anthony Di Maria
If you have health insurance, you might be able to see a personal dietitian for $0 out of pocket Nourish connects you with a dietitian that fits your needs covered by your insurance. Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans and 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Meet with your dietitian online and message them anytime through the Nourish app. With hundreds of five star reviews from Real Patience, you know you're in good hands. Find your dietitian@usenourish.com that's usenourish.com.
- [16:41]
Celicia Stanton
So what was the truth? What did you discover about who Jay really was?
- [16:46]
Anthony Di Maria
He is the American dream. He's a guy who left Detroit, went in the thing, and he arrived in LA at 22 years old with a sleeping bag and a dream. And he changed the world. It kind of started when, you know, he went to the Navy. And one of the things about Jay is he wanted to express himself, his style, his scene, his groove, all that. And when he got the haircuts from the Navy, it was emasculating to him. So that's where he got the idea of starting to cut his own hair, but within the regiments of the Navy restrictions. And then he started cutting his friend's hair. And then he started getting cigarettes for it and money for it. And then that's where the impetus began for him to do what he did. And so he, he came to California and what he did is he implemented styling that was exclusively for women. So cosmetologists, women went to beauty salons, men went to barbers, and no one in between did the two mix. So a man walked into a barber shop and he picked one of 16 cuts on a barber chart and it was slapped on his head. Essentially, the biggest style in terms of hair design for a man was where do you want the part on the left, the right, maybe the center? You know what I'm saying? That's what it was. You want a flat top and then we're going to put a bunch of bro cream in your hair. But what Jay did is he implemented what was shared for women into men. And so he really had to fight and educate the masses to come up to his ideas that it's okay for men to pamper themselves, to have their hair shampooed and conditioned. And a man's going to shampoo, massage your scalp, do things that they were freaked out by. And so for some men who maybe weren't used to this, it freaked them out. I mean, some men were afraid to wash their hair more than once a week because they thought it would cause hair loss. And Jay said, no, it's the exact opposite. So then he created a product line that was pH balanced, that was organic, when no one even really knew what the word organic meant. And then he built from this single station, dozens of stations. And he was met with a ton of adversity because he became so successful that the barbers union tried to shut him down. And the barbers union was run by the mob. So they started at first trying to shake him down with physical threats.
- [18:55]
Celicia Stanton
Wow.
- [18:56]
Anthony Di Maria
But CJ Had a lot of friends, and he was from Detroit, where the Purple Gang was, and Frank Sinatra and Vic Damone and a lot of these guys. So what he did, he started implementing his friends to defend the shop, essentially being bodyguards and such. So when that didn't work, then the barbers union tried to shut him down through legislation. You're a cosmetologist. You're not allowed to cut hair. And Jay said, no, no, no, no. No hair knows no gender. And then the movie studios, they literally. It sounds crazy, but they kicked him off the movie lots because he wasn't a member of the hair and makeup union. So you're going to tell Marlon Brando, Frank Sinatra, Steve McQueen that they can't have their guy do their hair. So then there was a huge rift. So what they would do is get their hair done at Jay's place or his house or their house, and they'd be late. And that was their way of telling movie studios, no, Sebring's my guy, and he's coming on the lot. So Jay was fighting, and he fought it all the way across. And again, you know, this. This thing that Time magazine, when Jay shop in his personal life was completely integrated at that time. You had Amos Russell, you had Wardell Jackson. Wardell Jackson was a cutter in 1961 at one of the most prestigious places on the planet. And Jay and Ward and Dell were. Remained very good friends. As a matter of fact, Dell was a proponent for boxing. A lot of boxers and hegemon Lewis and he proponent, and he brought a hegemon to Jay's attention. And Jay's friends Quincy Jones and Sam Cooke, Sammy Davis, this was a real organic thing. And Bruce Lee, he brought Bruce Lee to William Dozier, who ultimately cast Bruce in the Green Hornet, which was a lead character role. Now, this was a time when white Hollywood didn't think that Asian actors could play Asian characters. You had the absurdity of Marlon Brando playing Genghis Khan. Do you know what I mean?
- [20:47]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah.
- [20:48]
Anthony Di Maria
So this, again, these are things that Jay was groundbreaking on so many levels that went beyond just the fact that he created men's hairstyling and men's hair care product lines and things. He was the first for men, but he was defining the times.
- [21:03]
Celicia Stanton
Okay, that's all incredibly fascinating. I feel super in awe of Jay's work, and I know that there's so much more to Jay's legacy that you explore in the documentary. So I highly recommend folks check that out. But I also want to pivot a little bit because there really is a lot of misinformation out there, not just about Jay, but regarding the case in general, especially just given how much the story has been told and retold. And retold. So I want to know, like, a little bit more about how that felt for you and how that feels for you, whether there are other things that you really want to set the record straight about.
- [21:37]
Anthony Di Maria
Something that I've learned is that with regard to these crimes and any true crime, sensational crime, or notorious crime, they are treated as a cash cow. So how do you package and sell the horrific demise of innocent people for consumption? Well, the first thing you have to do is you strip the victims of their humanity. They're lesser, they're bizarre, they're illicit. They're not like our children, our parents, our friends, our lovers. So what happens is, in particular with, say, the Manson murders, they were parabolized. So for many people in law enforcement and in the media and different things, maybe the victims represented something of a little bit of a counterculture, that they were kind of like the Hollywood type, the beautiful people, but living the decadent kind of Hollywood stuff. Now, there's different morality tales to tell. In this one is, unfortunately, many people enjoy seeing successful, beautiful people being stricken down. Then there's the other morality tale of let's make sense of what doesn't make sense, especially a horrific event. I need to make sense of that, because if I don't make sense of it, then a similar horrific fate can happen to me and my family in the middle of the night. So there was a lot of These aspects and a lot of the attempts to parabolize these murders was to vilify the victims. So you have all these aspects and then you see these murderers, the killers actually get arrested. And then that was the next parable. Hippie cult. These were hippies. Don't let your kids be hippies because they're going to go out and kill people. And the thing that really enrages me, and that's why this question is so very poignant to me and maybe to other people, is that as much as there was two different JC brings, there is actually two different Manson families. The Manson Family was a crime organization that began from its inception in late 1967 and involved pimping, prostitution, drug trafficking, credit card fraud, grand theft auto, extortion, drug burns, attempted murder of Bernard Crow, the extortion and murder of Gary Hinman. This was a bonafide crime gang. This is who they are. And when you call them a hippie cult, it leaves all this daylight for, ooh, who's involved? It had to be someone pulling the strings. These were homecoming queens that were duped by this Mephistophelian guru. No, this was a group of cold blooded killers. So a Manson follower is not a Manson follower who was duped or indoctrinated by Manson. These were people who killed, and they killed with zeal. And they splashed messages in the victim's blood on walls to frame the Black Panthers because of a drug burn to Bernard Crowe. And then Manson actually shot him and thought he killed him. So now he's afraid of retribution at the ranch. So now we're going to frame the murder of Gary Hinman by putting paw prints in Gary's blood on the wall and writing political piggy, which was a kind of a mantra that a lot of the Black Panthers were saying about cops and establishment society, but mostly for towards cops. So now Manson wants to put the heat on the Panthers, who he's afraid of, but that doesn't work. And so what do they put on the door? Pig. What do they put at the labianca residence? Death to pigs. So this was a concerted effort. It wasn't exclusively to start a race war. This was to really go after a perceived enemy, a dangerous one. So now we understand that this was a crime group, not a hippie cult. So there's no room for the CIA and all this MK Ultra bullshit. That's another way to kind of frame this as what is happening now in another way to get a cash grab. So we're trying to make Sense of something that doesn't make sense. But if you look at them as a crime group, it all makes sense. With the copycat motives, with framing an enemy, it all makes sense. And when you call someone a follower, a Manson follower, that mitigates the horrific crimes that they actually committed. And I would tell everyone and remind them that every one of the women, and I specify the women because they really prop up in these parole hearings, how they're actually victims of Manson. And that shows a complete lack of rehabilitation and lack of insight into their crimes. They delivered more direct, fatal blows to their victims than Charles Manson did. They performed for the cameras at their own trial. They spit on the memory of their victims, they taunted our families and then they taunted society at large. This was the act of maybe one of an initial homegrown terrorist act. And it had profound consequences obviously to the victims in our families, but also to society at large. This is not a follower. This is somebody who's enjoying the attention. This is somebody who is sticking a big fuck you to society. And they need to be seen for what they are, what they did. And it's disgusting to me and many of our other of our family members who go to these parole hearings, how they play the system and how now they propping themselves up as victims of Manson because they were duped, they were indoctrinated, they were under the influence. No nonsense. You have to look at the reality in the hell and maybe I, I don't need to do that now, but what their victims went through.
- [27:05]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, you know, I, I really do appreciate you sharing your perspective on that, especially because like, you know, this idea, the idea that the Manson girls were both perpetrators and victims, it's something that I really do try to explore in the true crime episodes and also in a follow up bonus that we did. And I wanna be transparent, I do see value in discussing how these women were manipulated. Not to minimize their culpability, of course, not in any way, but you know, just as a way of holding multiple truths at once. My hope in doing that is really that we can open up this bigger conversation about how to prevent crimes like this from happening again. So I'm, I really wanna know from your perspective as a victim's family member, how does it feel to kind of know that these conversations are happening? And do you think there's room to acknowledge the ways that like Manson was manipulating young, vulnerable women, teenagers sometimes and a lot of the time actually people like Diane Lake or do you feel like that conversation just ultimately risks taking too much Focus away from the harm that was done.
- [28:07]
Anthony Di Maria
Again, great question. Anytime we're dealing with any kind of profound violent crime, we do need to really have a comprehensive understanding and appreciation, maybe is not the exact word, but an understanding and an interest, an intellectual curiosity as to how something like this could happen. And it's a very involved examination that needs to be taken place. But, you know, it's interesting that Lynette Fromm, one of the women at the ranch, she said, to blame it on Manson is complete nonsense. This was a voluntary unity. The women could come and go as they pleased. This was a countercultural group that was a crime gang that wanted to check out a society. They didn't want to work, and they didn't. And the way they did work was committing crimes, and that's how they did it. And I think once you engage in criminal activity, it's kind of like, you know, if you eat a bunch of crappy food, your body craves crappy food. If you start eating clean and lean, you start, I kind of want a salad with grilled chicken. But I mean, do you know what I'm saying?
- [29:05]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah.
- [29:06]
Anthony Di Maria
So when you're in that criminal element, it starts to become who you are and it becomes your wiring. And again. And I don't. I certainly wouldn't want to just vilify. But knowing what I've known and seen and heard and extensively through my. Just on my research, but the testimony and also the parole hearings, I'm going to give you an example. That is disgusting. So at one of the parole hearings, Patricia Krenwinkel. Now, this goes back to Diane Lake. Patricia Krenwinkel acknowledged that as the group got larger, that she and Van Houten were responsible for taking care of the children at the ranch. There was a lot of children, some born, some brought in as Diane Lake was, and different people. So one of the commissioners said, so, Ms. Krenwinkel, you said that you thought that you and Manson were in love and that he was the one for you. And also maybe he had this Jesus messiah type thing. What do you think of him today? And she said, oh, he's the worst. And again, I'm paraphrasing some of this. He's horrible. He's the worst. And then again, paraphrasing, until I say she said something like, he was horrible. I know that he, quote, raped 12, 13 and 14 year olds at the ranch, end quote. You knew about the rapes of these children, and you and Leslie were in charge of taking care of the children. How much did you know about this. Why wasn't any of this brought up earlier? And maybe she did to a certain extent. But why didn't the cdcr, the Board of Parole hearings, why didn't they ask more curious questions? Well, what do you mean you were aware of this? Who were these children? So this comes up and this is another layer of how sickening the stuff that was going on and the crimes. Immediately I filed an email to the cdcr, to the head of IT and the authorities saying, listen, oh, and by the way, the inmate and her lawyer filed an extensive formal investigation be launched and to determine whether Patricia Krenwinkel and other women were intimate partner abuse victims of Charles Manson. And of course they found that they were. So immediately I filed a similar request for an investigation looking into the rapes of children at the ranch and anyone who was, had knowledge of it, who were potential involved and accomplices of it, and to determine who these poor children were and if they need justice, how they can be helped, how the CDCR, or at least the state of California can put their resources towards their children. More victims that we didn't know about and that was pretty much rebuffed. There was no investigation into that.
- [31:47]
Celicia Stanton
And you're saying this involves Diane Lake because she was one of those miners that were at the ranch that was a victim of sexual assault.
- [31:56]
Anthony Di Maria
That's exactly correct. And. And you know, just because maybe she was influenced by certain things and I don't really know what her opinions are, so I don't want to misspeak to that, but I will say that she does write in her book that Patricia Krenwinkel handed her a joint and walked her into a trailer with Charles Manson, who later, I don't know what sexual activities, but he raped an underage girl. This is pretty mind blowing and it's despicable across the board. And I think that part of the problem that we're dealing with with regard to particularly the women in this is that they're really propping themselves up as the victims here. And Leslie Van Houten has done it. Krenwinkel does it, Susan Atkins certainly did it. And to certain degrees, other even I don't want to say it's just the women, I mean, Davis and Beausoleil to varying degrees have, and somewhat Watson, but ironically, Charles Watson seems to not lean on that. He was a victim of Manson. And so, no, I, you know, the people who committed these crimes and then the people who really relished in it in the attention and did what they did during the trials and then engaged the media with Diane Sawyer and you know, all these, the books and everything and resulting in other movies. That to me is insipid. It's deplorable. And I think you asked a very good question. And yes, I don't want to be draconian, we should comprehend what led to all of these things. But when we look at the comprehensive nature of okay, some of them came from broken homes and that affected them and okay, I get it. But you know what? Millions of people come from broken homes. Millions of people had abusive parents or felt whatever, but they don't go out and kill people. Millions of people at that time took LSD and joined a hippie commune, but they didn't go out and kill people and they didn't relish in this unspeakable behavior.
- [33:56]
Designer Shoe Warehouse
Instacart is on a mission to have you not leave the couch this basketball season because between the pre game rituals and the post game interviews, it can be difficult to find time for everything else. So let Instacart take care of your game day snacks or weekly restocks and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes because we hear it's bad luck to be hungry on game day. So download the Instacart app today and enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first 3 orders. Service fees apply for 3 orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants Want to pull off the season's freshest trends?
- [34:27]
Rosetta Stone
You just need the right shoes. That's where Designer Shoe Warehouse comes in. Loving wide leg jeans. Pair them with sleek low profile sneakers. Obsessed with the sheer trend? Try it with mesh flats. Feeling Boho comfy sandals. Nail the whole free spirited thing. Find on trend shoes from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at dsw.
- [34:54]
Nourish
Whether you're traveling, advancing your career or just love learning, speaking a new language can create incredible opportunities. Rosetta Stone makes it easier and more immersive than ever. Rosetta Stone helps you absorb a language the way you learned your first through real world context and conversation. No memorization, just practical skills you can use right away. For 30 years, they've been the trusted experts in language learning, helping millions of people get the chance to learn different languages. Rosetta Stone immerses you in the language from day one. No English translations, so you truly learn to think, speak and listen in that new language. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now listeners of this podcast can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life visit RosettaStone.com RS10 to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com RS10 and start learning today.
- [35:55]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, I think those are all really important points. And obviously, as you know, many of the people involved in these crimes are still eligible for parole. And in fact, in 2023, Leslie Van Houten was granted her release. I know you've been attending these parole hearings for years, but I'm curious, just from your perspective, what is it like to sit in that room, you know, knowing everything you know and watching the people responsible for these murders make a case for freedom? How does that feel for you? Especially just even knowing that the system is considering letting them go?
- [36:29]
Anthony Di Maria
I think I mentioned to you, but it's like the world's upside down. What happened to the profundity of the crimes, the severity, the egregious nature, the horrific, unspeakable nature, how horribly the victims suffered, how many victims there were, and the exacerbating, the painting messages and victims blood on the walls to frame African Americans in Black Panthers. And then you look at the horrific, perverse behavior throughout their trials. Singing, laughing, cajoling, taunting the judge, spitting on the memory of their victims and taunting our families. And essentially their behavior terrified the nation. So this, I would say, I don't. This was almost a forum, one of the first, at least in the media and a public forum, that this was like one of the first cases of domestic terrorism. You know what I'm saying? So when I look at these things that falls under a case law named Lawrence, and under Lawrence, it establishes that in certain rare cases in which the crimes are so egregious, so severe, so extreme, that the commitment offenses alone are enough to deny parole regardless of any rehabilitation and. Or time served. And Lawrence fits these crimes of every one of the Manson killers. Fits the Lawrence criteria.
- [37:49]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because what makes me think about how, you know, I had read that at one of Patricia Krenwinkel's parole hearings, you had made this statement saying that you thought that she should be paroled when her victims are paroled from their graves, which is really super visceral, really haunting way to put it. And so I'm curious, especially since you're kind of talking about, you know, maybe you don't think that these people ever deserve to be released from prison. What does justice look like for you in this case? Is that possible?
- [38:18]
Anthony Di Maria
That's a great question. So I'm going to just say, generally I'm going to ask that same question. What is justice for a human life? When a human life is destroyed in all of their future and all their experiences with their loved ones and their friends are obliterated? What is justice for that? For a civil society? What can we make atonement for? What's the criteria that we can establish the justice for killing somebody and erasing their whole future and impacting hundreds of people who love them and their experiences that they would have? What is justice for that? And I would posit there is no justice for that. There's no such thing. Now, justice is a very crucial part of a civil society. We must have some sort of criteria for justice. So that's just my basic answer. There is no justice for murder, but in the very least, like, you know, people can talk about death sentences and. Or the capital punishment and life without possibility, life with possibility of parole. And I think there's varying variables to different crimes. You know, some people commit a crime in a heat of passion, and I'm not diminishing the profundity of those. Sometimes it's an accident, sometimes it's. You know, it's all these things. So I want to answer your question specific to the Manson killings and the rampage. That is like five, six nights of atrocious violence. That profundity. How do you make up for that? There is no justice for that. The very least they can do is spend the rest of their lives behind bars and do good. And sadly, I think that that's just the reality of murder. I would even say all violent crime, rape, molestation, what, once the victim is completely restored and completely healed and restored to who they were and what they would have achieved in their life had something so devastating and traumatic impact them. And I'm talking about living survivors. There is no justice. But I'm not draconian either. I'm not throw them away and, you know, feed them to the sharks. I don't believe in that. But there are some crimes that are so profound in which the victim suffered so horrifically that the very least, they must spend the rest of their time behind bars. But, you know, it's. It's interesting. At one of the parole hearings for Susan Atkins, I was with my mother and my father and the other family. Some of the other family representatives were there. And Susan Atkins said something that really blew my mind after all these years of rehabilitation and reflection. She said that she realized that once the initial capital punishment was reversed for her, that she realized that God had a larger plan for her, larger than Any law larger than any institution, larger than the hatred that I feel towards me in this room today. And I thought, you think we're here because we hate you. You've had all these decades to think about this, and somehow you are being hated. You're the victim. And my mother and father were in the room with me, and don't misrepresent me, certainly, but do not mess with my parents. And I thought it was so appalling, and yet it made me question, what is this rehabilitation that some of these inmates are undergoing? Because we're not there. Because out of anger or vengeance or hatred. And I understand that some victims, family members might feel those things and they would, would be warranted. But I can speak for my family and I, that is not the case. We are at those parole hearings out of love to speak for our loved one who's defenseless in his grave. And you know what? I extend that to all the victims because I've seen viscerally and by osmosis, what it's done to their family members and their loved ones. And I've seen the pictures in my investigation and my research for them film. We're there for love, we're there for justice. And unfortunately, in these parole hearings, especially as of late, I've said this before and I have to reiterate it. It's like the world has been turned upside down with all these resources and attention and accommodations for these convicted killers. And really, you know, I'm grateful to Doris Tate for really, you know, passing legislation that victims of violent crime can speak in a victim impact statement. But it's astounding to me. My sister was giving an impact statement. She got very emotional. And so I leaned to the victim and the victim representative at CDCR next to me, and I said, excuse me, do you have any Kleenex? Could you please give, you know, my sister some Kleenex? She leaned under her chair and she pulled out a roll of toilet paper. And I said, no, no, no, no. And I took the toilet paper and I put it back under or my chair. That to me is almost a metaphor in a nutshell of how we're looking at victims of violent crime overall.
- [43:21]
Celicia Stanton
I think to your point about the narrative continuing to be shifted or like capitalized on, one of the things is, especially with this case, it's a case that's been covered endlessly, right? Books, movies, TV series. So I'm curious. We talked a lot about this parole hearing piece, which is really illuminating. But also, you know, in this public discourse, how does it feel to kind of see this story continuously revisited by the media? And have you and your family been asked to participate, even most recently with this new documentary on Netflix? Is that something that you would've had interest in collaborating on?
- [43:57]
Anthony Di Maria
We have been asked to do quite a few of these documentaries. Some of them I would put in quotations. And initially we were involved because there was two things it was to get. This is before Jay's story came out in his documentary. So we were in a fight for parole and for justice. So we wanted to bring awareness to public opinion and also Jay's story to that. And so we did. But it always kind of fell into the same type of narrative, where we were just an afterthought and the victims were just kind of the obligatory, okay, we're gonna deal with the victims now. Let's get to the good stuff. And then it's over. And then we saw how things were being twisted again in a dramatic narrative. So I hate to be cynical, but there's no reason to be involved in any of these. We were asked by. There was the Myth of Manson. There was about four or five from Reel's network. And they were like, anthony, we'll pay you money a lot. And I just was like, really? You're going to pay me money? So, no. We still have been asked all the way up until Chaos, the Netflix. No one contacted us from that. Tom O'Neill did. The writer of the book Chaos did contact my mother, because this was again, during the whole parole stuff, and he was saying he was gonna do a piece that was more about the victim. So I played the message from my mother, and we agreed to sit down with Tom. And for about two hours we talked. And my mother shared some very poignant, powerful information with Tom regarding Jay. And then Tom and I remained in contact for over maybe 20 years until his book was released and Jay's film was released after. And this was another example of when you are willing to share information from the victim's perspective. And yet it's not really. I don't know if it's because it gets in the way of the narrative, the dramatic narrative, but none of what we shared with Tom was in his book. None. As a matter of fact, the only reference was it buried in a footnote where I addressed Jay's debt, in which Jay was not in debt at all. And that's from the estate and penal records. These are all irrefutable facts. And that's the way I work with regard to Jay and. Or all the victims.
- [46:10]
Celicia Stanton
Yeah. And it obviously culminates in this great work with your documentary, Jay Sebring, cutting to the Truth. And so I'm really hopeful that, of course, you know, listeners will check this out. And you spent so much time really delving into the truth. You know, what was the truth about Jay? Who was he really coming into it with a very objective point of view. In that you wanted to be objective, Right. You were open to finding out that some of these things that you were hearing about your uncle that weren't so great was actually accurate. And you put together this great documentary. So what is it that you hope that people who watch it are going to take away from the film? And about Jay's story, One of the.
- [46:49]
Anthony Di Maria
Things about great stories is the universality of them. How does Jay relate to us? And for anyone who sees Jay's story, I think there's somewhere in every one of us, we're a dreamer. You know, he literally embodied and represents the American dream. But we all have dreams, and we would like to achieve our dreams. And sometimes our dreams are more practical, and sometimes they're almost impossible. And that was the case with many of the accomplishments of Jay's dreams. And he had to fight for them, and he had to cultivate them and nurture them. He had to be the best to prove to the world there's a reason with what I'm creating here that you will come to see me, that I can do this is important. I'm going to style a man's hair. What? What are you talking about? So he had to fight for that, for his dreams, and he had to fight to elevate himself. And in doing so, he extended it to his. His friends. So I hope that when people see Jay's film and also read the book, it's almost like a blueprint to something inside of us that unleashes the dreamer in all of us and the fighter in a good way to cultivate ourselves to be. One of Jay's talents is. Was to be the best he could be, to bring out his best. And he strove to do that with the people around him and his clients. And so those are things that I hope that viewers of the doc would see is like, live your dreams, fight for your dreams. Live life with passion. Work your butt off, but play a little bit harder, you know? But Jay had that fighting spirit, even in the last moments of his life when he stood up to an unspeakable evil. And I also. You had mentioned when you talk about truer crime, it's an interesting Statement, truer crime, not true crime. Truer crime, truer of true crime. And I think that's an interesting perspective. And so for those who are so enamored by true crime, when they see Jay's story and they see the distortion, the sensationalism, and how he was slaughtered a second time when he was defenseless in his grave, that maybe they have a more critical eye when, God forbid, there's going to be other cases, just all these cases that have been packed into a dramatic narrative. And I hope that people, after seeing this film, might look at these future projects, God forbid, with a critical eye with regard to human dimension, with regard to, you know, beyond good versus evil, beyond bad people, victims, you know, and. And. But what. What am I being told in this? Does this feel right? Does this sound right? And maybe as scary as it is, instead of trying to make sense of horrific crimes in a way that insulates us from a horrific fate also impacting us, instead of trying to explain the inexplainable, maybe try to understand what happened, what the victims were going through, and what we can do as a civil society to do our best to prevent these horrific crimes from happening in the future.
- [49:50]
Celicia Stanton
I think that's really a good reminder just for everybody who is listening, because I think true crime listeners too, listen to a lot of different true crimes content and stories and lots of different platforms and creators. And so that has always been part of the aim with true or crime is to sort of like set the standard for criticality. Right. And wanting to hone those skills, to be able to bring them that critical eye like you're talking about, to other content they're consuming, you know? Cause that's the only way, I think, to change the landscape, to like change the genre. So I think that's really valuable and I'm really excited to share this interview with people and for people to hear more about Jay. I think he has such an interesting, fascinating, cool story. And this is a lot of stuff that I didn't know about. So I'm really excited for folks to connect with that and, you know, for folks to watch the full documentary. But I also, of course, want them to continue to support you, your work. Where can people find you and like, what other products do you have coming soon that people might want to connect with?
- [50:48]
Anthony Di Maria
Oh, I really appreciate that. Well, we do have, you know, sites on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. That's the Facebook is under JC Bring Film. There's a YouTube link that is Jay Sebring cutting to the truth. And that is connected also. To the book. So a book is going to be coming out published by Genius Book Publishing in July of this year. I think that's pretty much when it will and I hope that people read the book. There's certain things you can do in a book that you can't do in a feature length documentary and vice versa. So we really get into Jay's life, death, his legacy, and then also extensively into the paroles and the cultural implications and even the distortion and the sculpted narratives that continue to be promulgated even today. There is a link that you can sign up and get email updates on from Genius Book Publishing.
- [51:39]
Celicia Stanton
Great. We'll include all of that in the description for any folks want to check that out. Definitely get the book as soon as it comes out. But I really appreciate having you Anthony, you sharing your thoughts and your experience. I know it's obviously a really difficult thing to talk about, but I really appreciate and commend the work that you're doing to get the word out there.
- [51:57]
Anthony Di Maria
Well, I really appreciate you and commend you for the work that you're doing. And I have to say I, I'm, I'm thrilled and honored that we're having these conversations and that our, our paths have crossed. I really appreciate that.
- [52:12]
Celicia Stanton
That's my conversation with Anthony Dem Maria. I want to thank him for taking the time to speak with me and for sharing such powerful insight into his uncle's life legacy and the lasting impact of these crimes, his work to set the record straight, not just about Jay, but about the case as a whole. It's so important. If you want to learn more, and I hope you do, I highly recommend watching that documentary that we talked about, Jay Sebring, Cutting to the Truth. It's available for free on Tubi and a large number of other streaming platforms. You'll find links to everything Anthony mentioned in the description for this episode. As always, you can keep up with truer crime on Instagram and xrewerchrimepod and you can find me on Instagram and TikTok, Lecastia Stanton, or through my weekly newsletter. Sincerely Celicia@sincerelycelecia.sobstack.com thanks for listening.
- [53:05]
Anthony Di Maria
Foreign.
- [53:12]
Celicia Stanton
Thanks for listening to this Season two episode of True or Crime. If you want an ad free version of this show and other great shows from Tenderfoot TV, you can subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts.
- [53:26]
Symbiotica
Swindled is a true crime podcast about greed. The anonymous host who refers to himself as a concerned citizen tells true stories of white collar criminals, con artists and corporate evil, and a dark and deadpan narrative style that will leave you trusting nothing. There are episodes about the disturbing histories and practices of food giants such as Nestle and Chiquita. There are episodes about man made environmental disasters such as the Bhopal gas tragedy and the BP oil spill. There's even a Swindled episode about Mother Teresa. Nothing and no one is off limits. Critics have called Swindled remarkable and enraging, horrifying and maddening, meticulously researched and true. For the love of money is the root of all evil. 100 plus episodes are waiting for you. Listen to swindled@swindled.com or wherever you listen to podcasts.