Catastrophic California wildfires too big a crisis for small man, Donald Trump

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner: Episode Summary Episode Title: Catastrophic California Wildfires Too Big a Crisis for Small Man, Donald Trump
Release Date: January 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, host Alex Wagner delves into the unprecedented wildfires ravaging Southern California, examining the intersection of natural disasters, climate change, and political leadership under President Donald Trump. The episode interweaves on-the-ground reporting, expert analysis, and political commentary to provide a comprehensive view of the crisis and its broader implications.

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Unfolding Wildfire Catastrophe

Wildfires' Escalation and Impact

The episode opens with a harrowing report on the severe wildfires engulfing the Greater Los Angeles area. Chris Hayes details the dire situation:

"Firefighters are now fighting five wildfires at once, burning over 25,000 acres and destroying at least 1,000 buildings in just 36 hours." [01:00]

The fires have led to the complete destruction of two schools in the Los Angeles Unified School District, prompting the closure of all schools in the district—a major blow as it is the second-largest in the United States. Over 100,000 residents have been evacuated, and power outages have affected hundreds of thousands of customers. Tragically, the fires have claimed at least five lives.

Causes: Santa Ana Winds and Climate Change

Experts attribute the ferocity of the fires to a combination of Santa Ana winds—high-velocity gusts exacerbated by climate change—and prolonged drought conditions. The Santa Ana winds, known for their destructive power, have reached their strongest levels in over a decade. Additionally, Southern California's vegetation has turned into enormous fuel sources due to eight months of scant rainfall following exceptionally wet seasons in 2022 and 2023.

"The abnormally strong winds and the abundance of dry, fire-prone vegetation are likely getting worse because of climate change." [04:40]

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On-the-Ground Reporting

Morgan Chesky’s Coverage in Altadena

Morgan Chesky, NBC News correspondent, provides a poignant eyewitness account from Altadena, California. She describes the pervasive devastation and the overwhelming strain on firefighting resources:

"It's heartbreakingly clear everywhere you look. Firefighters are stretched incredibly thin with 9,000 personnel managing multiple fires with dwindling water supplies." [06:46]

Chesky highlights the critical shortage of water, noting that Los Angeles County's primary hydrant system has exhausted its water tanks after 15 hours of continuous firefighting. This scarcity forced firefighters to make impossible choices, such as abandoning an apartment building engulfed in flames due to lack of water.

Expert Insights from Dr. Ariel Cohen

Dr. Ariel Cohen, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Los Angeles, discusses the unusual and extreme weather patterns contributing to the crisis:

"We've truly had some of the most historic combinations of powerful winds and destructive windstorms combined with very dry conditions and a tremendous amount of fuel vegetation for the fires to burn through." [11:40]

Dr. Cohen emphasizes the rarity of experiencing both excessive rainfall followed by severe drought, creating an environment ripe for catastrophic wildfires. She warns of the ongoing threat as another wave of Santa Ana winds is predicted to strike, potentially igniting new fires.

"Everyone needs to remain at a high state of readiness and take evacuation orders seriously—they depend on your life." [13:20]

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Political Dynamics and Leadership

Governor Gavin Newsom vs. Donald Trump

The episode shifts focus to the political ramifications of the wildfires, particularly the clash between California Governor Gavin Newsom and President Elect Donald Trump. Governor Newsom, who is visibly coordinating with President Biden, faces harsh criticism from Trump, who accuses him of mismanagement.

"Mr. President, thank you for, but not just being here today." [17:40]
Gavin Newsom: "People are literally fleeing. People have lost their lives, kids lost their schools... This guy wanted to politicize it." [18:40]

Trump’s derogatory remarks about Newsom reflect his tendency to politicize disasters, undermining collaborative efforts to address the crisis effectively. In contrast, Newsom emphasizes unity and non-political support from the administration.

Analysis by Charlie Sykes

Charlie Sykes, MSNBC contributor and Atlantic columnist, provides a critical analysis of Trump's response:

"Trump does not have that instinct. He just won the presidency... his first instinct is to lash out, to politicize, to make up declarations that didn't exist." [19:31]

Sykes highlights the dangers of Trump's approach, questioning how his leadership style will impact federal disaster response and cooperation in future crises.

"If he cannot restrain himself, what can we expect when he gets back into office?" [22:53]

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Legal Maneuvers and Supreme Court Involvement

Trump’s Emergency Appeal to the Supreme Court

As Trump's sentencing in the New York hush money case looms, his legal team files an emergency appeal to the Supreme Court, seeking to block the sentence based on a questionable interpretation of presidential immunity. The episode features insights from legal experts Lisa Rubin and Mark Joseph Stern.

Mark Joseph Stern: "I think there is a zero percent chance that Sam Alito is telling the truth when he says he did not know that this emergency application would be filed." [31:11]

Justice Samuel Alito’s Involvement

Reports reveal that Justice Alito engaged in a phone call with Trump, raising ethical concerns about judicial impartiality. Despite Alito’s claims of not discussing the emergency appeal, Stern and Rubin express skepticism about his credibility and motives.

Mark Joseph Stern: "This suggests that something else was going on here." [31:11]

Potential Outcomes and Implications

The legal experts predict that the Supreme Court may intervene to halt Trump's sentencing, continuing a pattern of judicial decisions favoring Trump. This raises significant concerns about the erosion of judicial independence and the politicization of the Supreme Court.

Mark Joseph Stern: "Intercepting a sentence here when Trump doesn't even face prison time would represent one of the more egregious extensions of that immunity decision." [36:16]

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Special Counsel Report and Judicial Overreach

Judge Aileen Cannon’s Controversial Ruling

The episode covers Judge Aileen Cannon's decision to enjoin Attorney General Merrick Garland from releasing Special Counsel Jack Smith's report on January 6th investigations. Critics argue that Cannon overstepped her judicial authority, prompting an appeal to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.

Alex Wagner: "Judge Cannon does not have jurisdiction. It's not her case anymore." [39:38]

Expectations from the 11th Circuit

Mark Joseph Stern expresses optimism that the 11th Circuit will overturn Cannon’s ruling, allowing the dissemination of the Special Counsel’s findings. He underscores the importance of transparency and accountability in maintaining public trust.

Mark Joseph Stern: "I think it will prove conclusively that Jack Smith was right to bring the charges... The public does not deserve to see that." [43:01]

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Conclusion

As the wildfires continue to devastate Southern California, the episode effectively intertwines the immediate disaster response with the broader political and legal battles surrounding President Elect Donald Trump. Through firsthand reporting, expert opinions, and incisive political analysis, Alex Wagner paints a comprehensive picture of a nation grappling with natural calamities and the fraught landscape of its leadership.

Alex Wagner: "I do think it's worth being very clear-eyed, very realistic about what's going on here." [29:10]

This episode not only highlights the severity of the wildfires but also scrutinizes the political dynamics that may influence the crisis's resolution and the nation’s future handling of similar disasters.

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Notable Quotes:

• Chris Hayes: "That is just a catastrophic situation." [09:19]
• Morgan Chesky: "I haven't seen a fire with so many firefighters and so many fire trucks and so little water being used on one blaze after another." [06:46]
• Charlie Sykes: "Donald Trump does not have that instinct to pull together during a disaster." [19:31]
• Dr. Ariel Cohen: "These are apocalyptic scenes... once in a lifetime or even much longer outcome." [12:37]

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Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts. The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Alex Wagner]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Alex Wagner]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of.

[Chris Hayes]

Transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Chris Hayes]

Tonight, we're turning again to the greater Los Angeles area where firefighters are now fighting five wildfires at once. Collectively, those fires have burned more than 25,000 acres in just the past 36 hours, completely destroying at least 1,000 buildings. Just before we got on air tonight, officials announced two schools have been completely destroyed by these fires. Officials also announced that all schools in the Los Angeles Unified School District, which is the second biggest school district in the United States, that they will be closed tomorrow because of the crisis playing out in Los Angeles. These fires are all happening in relatively dense urban areas and they have forced more than 100,000 residents to evacuate their homes to cut off power for hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have left at least five people dead. And to understand how these fires got so bad, experts are pointing to wind and water in cold months. California faces a unique topographical threat. That's the Santa Ana winds. High pressure pockets of air from dry desert regions in the east race down the mountains toward lower pressure pockets of air by the coast. The west, that air gets faster and warmer as it literally races downhill, which is how the wind has created gusts of up to 100 miles per hour around these fires. Now, these Santa Ana winds are abnormally strong, the strongest in more than a decade. But experts do not think that they alone would have caused fires this destructive. Those hurricane force winds were made extra dangerous by the rain and the lack thereof in Southern California over the past few years. 2022 and 2023 were some of the wettest rainy seasons ever recorded in Southern California. But in the past eight months, a lot of the region has seen less than a quarter inch of rain and that comes after a summer of record breaking heat. Now all of that means that the vegetation of Southern California, the trees and the bushes and the grass, all of that spent years growing, especially in those wet years, only to spend the past eight months drying out and then becoming giant piles of fuel for these fires. Now normally Los Angeles would start seeing rain in the month of November which would lower the fire risk, but it did not this year. And that confluence of factors, the abnormally strong winds and the abundance of dry fire prone vegetation, both of those factors are likely getting worse because of climate change. By the way, those factors are what experts are saying made these fires so. As to why these fires have been so hard to put out. Well, officials are also pointing to wind and water overnight. Last night the winds were so strong that all firefighting aircraft were grounded. Without air support to do water drops, firefighters on the ground were stuck fighting those flames alone. Not only did that mean that firefighters had to fight four major fires across different corners of the region, but it also meant strong winds picked up embers, sending them miles from the main fires themselves and creating small spot fires in what's being called ember casting. Even with 9,000 firefighters in Los Angeles county, that meant personnel was spread incredibly thin. Here was LA County Fire Chief Anthony Marone earlier today. There are not enough firefighters in LA county to address four separate fires a of this magnitude. We're doing the very best we can, but no, we don't have enough fire personnel in LA county between all of the departments to handle this. To make matters worse, water for firefighters hoses was in short supply. Louisiana's hydrant system primarily relies on three large water tanks, each one holding around a million gallons. By 3am last night, they had all run dry. 15 hours of fighting multiple major fires at once had depleted the tanks faster than they could be refilled. Now tonight, thankfully, the winds have calmed down enough for firefighting aircraft to once again provide air support. Additional firefighters are also on their way, coming from all across California as well as Arizona and they are expected as early as tonight. And President Biden has now signed a major disaster declaration which will clear the way for federal funds and resources to help fight these fires. But officials warn that Los Angeles is not out of the woods yet. The National Weather Service is cautioning that although the winds will continue to die down throw tonight, another round of powerful Santa Ana winds could pick up again as early as tomorrow afternoon. Officials also warn that despite what is now nearly 36 hours of continuous firefighting from LA's 9,000 firefighters, four of the five major fires are still at 0% containment and could continue to spread. Evacuation zones around these fires have expanded multiple times in the past 24 hours, and officials ask that anyone near the fires keep up to date on all evacuation orders and warnings that they pack a go bag, make an evacuation plan and leave immediately when ordered to do so. We're going now to NBC News correspondent Morgan Chesky, who is live in Altadena, California. Morgan, what can you tell me about the status of the fire there?

[Morgan Chesky]

Alex, the status is heartbreaking in every direction you look. We're here in Altadena on one of the main thoroughfares. I look through a smoky haze this way. I see nothing but fire trucks. We have another one passing me right now, and I'm standing just across the street from a junior high that will likely be a total loss as a result of this Eaton fire this time yesterday. Alex, I remember seeing the notification. It was about 400 acres. It is hard to fathom how this time tonight we are looking at a blaze that's now 10,000 acres and responsible for claiming at least five lives. And I think what's most important to say is that it is still very much actively burning in and around the hills of this area. We've had a chance to report on some of the firefight, and Alex, you mentioned it, but I want to reinforce this fact for everyone listening and for everyone watching tonight. And that is when we saw an apartment building engulfed in flames. I saw the fire engine pull up this afternoon, a fire captain have one of his firefighters attach a hose to a hydrant and that hose didn't fill up. Alex and I asked the captain, out of every 10 hydrants you attach to today, on average, how many are you getting full water from? He says little to none. And it was at that point that really the whole crew stopped, looked up at this apartment building, and they realized there was nothing they could do except try to spray what little water they had in their truck on an opposing building to keep it from heating up and igniting from this fire that was happening next door. And I didn't just hear it from that fire captain. I heard it elsewhere. And that is certainly going to be one of the aspects of this firefight that's going to be focused on in the days, weeks and months ahead, because I don't know that I've ever covered a fire and seen so many firefighters and so many fire trucks and so little water being used on one blaze after another. And just to reinforce the scale of this tragedy, this generational disaster Happening here in Southern California. Alex, a gentleman pulled up in his car with his wife while we were watching that same apartment building burn. He said he wanted to check on his mother's home, which was next door. He was relieved to see that it was still standing. But when he realized there was no water, you could just see him become crestfallen in an instant. I asked him, you know, have you been personally impacted by this elsewhere? He said, between myself and my wife, we have five family members who have lost homes as a result of this fire. A fire that's one of four, perhaps five burning in this area, Alex, that's still burning at this hour, and it'll be burning this time tomorrow.

[Chris Hayes]

That is just a catastrophic situation. Morgan. You know, the image of firefighters with hoses run dry is a terror. I wonder if you've. If the fact that, you know, firefighting aircraft is back in the skies, whether that's mitigating this at all. You know, what you can tell us about other methods by which they're trying to extinguish these blazes.

[Morgan Chesky]

We have seen some aircraft return to the skies. Winds have died down somewhat. There is a hope that they can make some progress, although I should add that there's only a limited amount of firefighting that aircraft. Aircraft can do under the COVID of darkness. We know that some helicopters are specially equipped with infrared that will allow them to do that. But those massive planes that we see during the day, they typically don't operate at night. If there is any solace here whatsoever, it's that these winds have somewhat died down and that crews can perhaps position themselves in more defensive areas as some of these spot fires pop up. But Alex said you walk up and down this main thoroughfare in Altadena, just in a few minutes time, you'll meet someone, if they have not personally lost. Lost a home, who lost their business or may have lost both.

[Chris Hayes]

Alex, Morgan, you're doing some essential reporting there. This is just an unfathomable. An unfathomable level of destruction. Thank you for that, Morgan. Stay safe. I want to note that. That a brush fire has broken out in the Hollywood Hills area of Los Angeles near Runyon Canyon. That's according to the city's fire chief, who said that at a news conference this evening. A mandatory evacuation order has now been issued for that area. We're going to get more on all of this as we talk with Ariel Cohen, who is a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Los Angeles. Dr. Cohen, I'm really. I think a lot of people we have so many questions, all of us, about the magnitude, the scope of this fire, these fires. And the first thing that just strikes me as inordinate and unusual are the winds and how fierce they are. Can you talk a little bit about how unusual these Santa Ana winds are in terms of their velocity and their ongoing status?

[Dr. Ariel Cohen]

We've truly had some of the most historic combinations of powerful winds, destructive life threatening windstorm that combined with very dry conditions and a tremendous amount of fuel vegetation for the fires to burn through. From all the precipitation that we got in the past couple of years, it turned off the fuels, dried out and it's led to these very catastrophic circumstances across Southern California.

[Chris Hayes]

Do you, I mean, as we talk about the circumstances, right there were these two years of almost deluge in 2022 and 2023, really, really wet seasons in California. There was a very. This year has been incredibly dry, the feast or famine like aspect of all of this. How unusual is that that you would have these really wet seasons and then really dry seasons that basically dried out all the vegetation that sprang up in the previous two years.

[Dr. Ariel Cohen]

It's certainly not common. What we've seen over the past 24 hours are apocalyptic scenes. There's really no other way to put it. And that's something that really is a. A once in a lifetime or even much longer outcome. And the main message here is that everyone needs to remain at a high state of readiness, have multiple ways to receive emergency information from law enforcement, from emergency management officials. And when the evacuation orders come, you must take those seriously and evacuate. Your life depends on.

[Chris Hayes]

Feels like the destruction is increasing at a ferocious clip. And I wonder what you can tell us about the forecast ahead. We know that the winds are dying down right now, but they are expected to strike back up again tomorrow, Is that right?

[Dr. Ariel Cohen]

We're seeing the strongest winds now having passed at this point. Talking about wind gusts over the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica mountains, pushing of 80-100 mph reported during the overnight hours last night. While those winds are weakening considerably compared to where they were, they will remain strong on the order of 50-70 mph over the mountains. Some of the nearby valley locations across the San Fernando, San Gabriel Valley, Santa Monica and also to the Malibu coast vicinity. And so we're still going to have a tremendous amount of potential for fires to spread rapidly to spot and cause new fires to form ahead of them with a explosive fire growth. We have red flag warnings remaining in effect which indicate that the volatile combination of parameters continues to remain there for fires to grow rapidly, everyone needs to stay vigilant. Don't go to bed without having multiple ways of receiving emergency information.

[Chris Hayes]

Dr. Ariel Cohen, it is quite a time to be looking at these images in Los Angeles with honestly, the scope of. Sorry, go ahead.

[Dr. Ariel Cohen]

Yeah, I want to say on behalf of the National Weather Service, you know, these are our communities, these are our people. And it is so heartbreaking to see all of the devastation that's occurred. And I just want to make sure everyone knows that we are here for them. We work very closely with emergency management, fire agencies, law enforcement so that we have a community response to have people be prepared and respond to these disasters. Our deepest sympathies and heart go out to everyone who has been affected.

[Chris Hayes]

Dr. Ariel Cohen, thank you so much for your time. Everybody heed those warnings. We will be monitoring the situation throughout the hour. Coming up, a new report on what Donald Trump did just hours before asking the Supreme Court for a really big favor. Here's a hint. It involves Justice Samuel Alito. But first, those deadly fires continue to rage in Los Angeles county and the full scope of devastation is still unknown. But our incoming president is already playing the blame game. The breaking news coverage continues right after this break.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club, and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Get all of Rachel Maddow's original chart topping podcast series in one place with Rachel Maddow Presents Binge the Entire Bagman series, seasons one and two of Ultra and every episode of Deja News, along with all of Rachel Maddow's new podcasts to come. These are untold stories of our country's past that could help us understand the state of our country today. Search for Rachel Maddow Presents and follow to listen now. For ad free listening, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. It's impossible for me to express the.

[Chris Hayes]

Level of appreciation and cooperation we receive.

[Gavin Newsom]

From the White House and this administration.

[Chris Hayes]

So Batman, all of us.

[Gavin Newsom]

Mr. President, thank you for, but not.

[Chris Hayes]

Just being here today.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you for being here.

[Dr. Ariel Cohen]

Since the minute of this incident.

[Chris Hayes]

That was California Governor Gavin Newsom with President Biden today. That was happening as wildfires continue to blaze through Southern California. But as the governor receives support from the outgoing president, the incoming president is throwing barbs. Today, President Elect Trump attacked Governor Newsom. Writing on Truth Social, Governor Gavin Newscomb refused to sign the Water Restoration Declaration put before him that would have allowed millions of gallons of water from excess rain and snow melt from the north to flow daily into many parts of California. He is the blame for this. Governor Newsom's office responded in a statement. There is no such document as the Water Restoration Declaration. That is pure fiction. And earlier tonight, just a few moments ago, Governor Newsom himself responded.

[Gavin Newsom]

People are literally fleeing. People have lost their lives, kids lost their schools, families completely torn asunder, churches burned down. This guy wanted to politicize it. I have a lot of thoughts, and I know what I want to say. I won't. I stood next to a President of the United States of America today, and I was proud to be with Joe Biden. And he had the backs of every single person in this community. Didn't play politics, didn't try to divide any of us.

[Chris Hayes]

Joining me now is Charlie Sykes, an MSNBC contributor and a columnist at the Atlantic. Charlie, first of all, I mean, what's your reaction to the situation as we go through these horrifying images of destruction and despair, a major American city being laid waste by these unmanageable fires, and this is the incoming president's reaction?

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I mean, it's a catastrophe of global magnitude. And just in a human tragedy, that's hard to get your head around, you know, and there will be a time to go, you know, to, you know, assess responsibility, to ask questions about why are the firefighters not getting water. But this is not that moment. You know, it's. You know, people may think that this is normal, but there once was a time, actually that I'm old enough to remember it, when a disaster like this would bring out the best in Americans. When we would pull together, we would say, you know, let's put partisan politics aside for the moment and let's assure the people of Southern California that this country has their back, that we are united, we will do whatever it takes. Donald Trump does not have that instinct. He just won the presidency. He is about to assume the presidency, and yet his first instinct is to lash out, is to politicize, is to make up declarations that didn't exist, to use Juvenile nicknames for the governor of California. I guess the juxtaposition of the seriousness of, of the tragedy and the unseriousness and the demagoguery of Donald Trump should be breathtaking, except we've seen this. But for anyone who thinks that he has been sobered by his return to power or that he will grow into office, this is his first instinct, is to lash out and to score points and to see this through the crudest political lens. And this is who Donald Trump is. And I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. The problem is, how will this translate into his presidency? How will this translate into the way the federal government deals with these disasters in the future? Because we've had some troubling indications from the past.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, and I also think the rhetoric increasingly phrase the ties that bind us together as a nation to pit Americans against each other like this. I do think it bears some fact checking here. Right. Number one, part of the reason firefighters don't have water is because they're all tapping the same lines at the same time to fight monstrously large fires and the water pressure goes down. And then number two, this is from the National Resources Defense Council, for Donald Trump to tie water management from the Bay Delta area into devastating wildfires that have cost people's lives and homes as nothing short of irresponsible. And it is happening precisely at a time when the Metropolitan Water District, the LA Metropolitan Water District, has the most water stored in its system in the history of the agency. It is not a matter of having enough water coming from Northern California to put out a fire. It's about the continued devastating impacts of a changing climate. I mean, we just spoke with a meteorologist. We're talking about climate extremes, weather extremes, years of deluge, years of drought. Vegetation then grows and then gets bone dry, and then winds that are exacerbated and increased by climate change. All of those factors coming together, converging on the city of Los Angeles, that's what's happening now. And to ask for Donald Trump to lead, to first of all lead on this, but also to diagnose a problem that is here now on our doorstep, which is the climate problem we face as a country, as a globe, seems like an impossibility.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, and also, is it too much to ask that he not lie about this at this particular moment? You know, you said that, you know, this kind of rhetoric, phrase the ties. I guess one of the questions we have to ask is, you know, how does it help? Is he contributing to the solution? Is his rhetoric going to make it more likely that Los Angeles survives, that lives are saved, that houses are protected, that schools are able to be shielded from that? I mean, what does he accomplish by his rhetoric, except to scratch the ID of his grievances? And we've had reports from his first term that he considered not giving federal disaster aid to certain states because he didn't like the politics of their governor. This is the real danger. Will he. Because we know how vindictive he is. And, you know, at this moment of maximum, you know, tragedy and danger, if he cannot restrain himself, what can we expect when he gets back into office? Because there's going to be a massive rebuilding. There will be more disasters like this. How will Donald Trump respond? Will he try to take it out on his political opponents? Will he see everything through the lens of his own ego and his resentments? This becomes more than just simply mean tweets. This raises questions about will he be the president of all Americans and a president who wants to solve problems and protect the American people as opposed to scoring these kinds of petty points?

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I mean, I think this is where it tips from just rhetoric and nastiness and Donald Trump's bad behavior into a real issue in terms of Americans getting the help they need. Right. You mentioned what happened in his first term. I mean, he was actually going to withhold aid from California after the 2018 wildfires until his aides showed him that there were parts of Orange County, California, that supported Trump. And because of that, he relented. I mean, and that happened in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria. He delayed aid to Washington State, which was run by a Democrat, for four months. He told the governors of Connecticut and Maryland that they should ask nicely for their disaster aid. They were not Trump acolytes. He delayed disaster aid to the state of Georgia by 55 days because he was mad at Governor Kemp for certifying the election in favor of Joe Biden. He delayed aid to Utah after the Republican governor certified Biden's electoral victory. This is what he did in the first term. And I wonder, you know, what you think of the road ahead for a man as he comes in, probably even more emboldened in the second term to punish his, quote, unquote, enemies. And what that means in a moment like this, where he's looking at the same image as we are, and this is his response.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, Alex, that list that you just read is breathtaking, and we ought to remember that. But I guess one of the differences with Trump 2.0 is that there were apparently some grownups or responsible individuals in the room during his first term who told him, Mr. President, you shouldn't do this, or figured out a way to make him relent. Will they be there in this next term? See, this is what I think is the scary part, because the people he surrounded himself with now are the ones who I think are going to reinforce many of his worst instincts, are not going to tell him that, no, you cannot take out your resentment against Governor Newsom, who you call these ridiculous nicknames. You can't take out that political resentment on the American citizens, on the American people who've been impacted by this. Who will be the people who will say that? Is Stephen Miller gonna be telling him things like that? Will the people, the MAGA acolytes that he stacked his administration with, will they be the ones who appeal to the better angel of his nature? So the fact is, we know what his instincts are. We saw it in his first term. He was dissuaded from the worst, most damaging things. It's not clear that will happen again this next time and again. To your point, he has seen these images. And if these images do not sober you, if these images don't make you cry out and thinking, you know, these are our fellow Americans, these are fellow human beings, this is a catastrophe. This is a tragedy. If you don't have that instinct, then I think it's a tremendously troubling commentary on the man who's about to become President of the United States.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. I mean, we know from Governor Newsom how essential White House support is in critical moments like these. We look towards January 20th to see what's next. Charlie Sykes, MSNBC contributor columnist at the Atlantic. Thank you so much for your time, Charlie.

[Charlie Sykes]

Thank you.

[Chris Hayes]

Still to come this evening, Donald Trump throws a Hail Mary to the Supreme Court to try and get out of his impending criminal sentencing. I'm going to talk about it with legal experts Lisa Rubin and Mark Joseph Stern coming up next.

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Banned Book Club, and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Lisa Rubin]

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? We're sharing the first chapter of my new book, the Sirens Call. How Attention Became the World's most endangered resource to live at this moment in the world, both online and off, is to find oneself endlessly wriggling on the mast, fighting for control over her very being against the ceaseless siren calls of the people and devices and corporations and malevolent actors trying to trap it. That's this Week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever you're listening right now, and follow Stay.

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[Alex Wagner]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

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[Chris Hayes]

Donald Trump's sentencing in the New York hush money case is just two days away, and he is throwing a Hail Mary in the direction of the U.S. supreme Court. Trump's lawyers Todd Blanche and Emil Bovey filed an emergency appeal this morning arguing that justices should block Trump's sentencing because he is protected by the court's ruling on presidential immunity. Keep in mind that Blanche and Bovey have been nominated to take top positions in Trump's incoming Justice Department, and if confirmed, they will go from fighting the law on Trump's behalf to enforcing it. Today. Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who handles emergency appeals from the 2nd Circuit, told New York prosecutors to respond to Trump's request by te 10am tomorrow morning as the court signals an interest in Trump's appeal. ABC News is reporting and NBC has confirmed that Justice Samuel Alito spoke with Donald Trump by phone on Tuesday in a call initiated by Trump to recommend one of Alito's former law clerks for a job in the incoming Trump administration. In a statement, Justice Alito said, we did not discuss the emergency application he filed today and indeed I was not even aware at the time of our conversation that such an application would be filed. Joining me now are Lisa Rubin, MSNBC legal correspondent, and Mark Joseph Stern, who is a senior writer for Slate magazine. Guys, thank you for being here. Mark, because it's Samuel Alito, I first need your reaction to. You know, just a friendly phone call between buddies. Didn't talk about any of the matters before the court. Sam Alito, Donald Trump, your thoughts?

[Mark Joseph Stern]

I think there is a zero percent chance that Sam Alito is telling the truth when he says he did not know that this emergency application would be filed. Trump and his legal team have made it very clear that they would go to the United States Supreme Court to block this sentencing if necessary. Alito reads the news. He doesn't live in a hole. And so I think that he was well aware when he got this phone call that it was would look at a minimum, really bad that it would raise a lot of questions about what exactly he discussed with the president elect. And yet he still decided to have the conversation and to do so about someone who's going to be apparently a low level appointee in this administration. We're not talking about an appeals court judge or a potential attorney general. We're talking about someone who might be general counsel at a federal agency. The idea that Trump needed Alito to vouch for him and needed him to do so at this moment because it was so urgent, I mean, it really does not pass the sniff test. And it suggests to me that something else was going on here.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, also maybe that Sam Alito doesn't care. Right. This is someone who has basically said middle finger to the optics of me being partisan, whether it's my wife raising an insurrectionist flag above two of our houses or taking a call from the president when he's probably going to have really important business before the court. Do you think Sotomayor reaching out and saying, Alvin Bragg, prosecutors, you got to get your filing to me by tomorrow morning signals that the court is going to take this up and take it up with alacrity?

[Alex Wagner]

I think that it is very likely that we'll hear from the court before Friday. But it doesn't necessarily mean, Alex, that we'll have the outcome that Trump would like it to have. I think this is Justice Sotomayor trying to make sure that in the interest of fairness, they have an opportunity to have full briefing and that they can make a decision. Not that they will, but that they could make a decision prior to Friday with ample time to do so.

[Chris Hayes]

Mark, how do you read the tea leaves on this in terms of the court? I mean, we'll get into Trump's legal argument in a second that this is based on the presidential immunity ruling handed down by this very conservative Supreme Court.

[Mark Joseph Stern]

I think there's a very good chance that the Supreme Court will step in and halt this sentencing and run interference for Donald Trump yet again and claim that Judge Merchan in New York York somehow allowed for illegitimate testimony regarding Trump's official acts. I don't like this prediction. I think this should be laughed out of court. It's a Very frivolous appeal. But this court has a track record of stepping in and twisting, contorting the law to help Trump whenever it needs to. And I think the fact that the court is acting very quickly, making sure it can get all of the filing in before Friday, means there is a real chance that they will step in and say this sentencing cannot happen.

[Chris Hayes]

Can we talk about Trump's argument? Because I know Mark is not a fan of it holding water with the court, but Trump's lawyers are contending presidential immunity extends to president elects, and then being a convicted felon is not a good thing to be when you're trying to carry out presidential duties. Here's what I'll say. It's not great to be a convicted felon in America. And a lot of convicted felons can tell you just how much of a Mark that is against you even after you've served your time. Is there some weight to that argument.

[Alex Wagner]

At all that it would be some opprobrium to him to have this conviction on his record? Look, I don't think that it animates any of the concerns that the court was thinking about when it issued that presidential immunity ruling. What they were really concerned about was a distraction in terms of the time it took away from the president, as well as that person being under sort of the shadow of investigation and prosecution while they're conducting their job. Simply being sentenced doesn't do that. In fact, the fact that this man had already been convicted by a jury of 34 felony counts didn't stop him from being elected with 312 electoral votes. So the idea that this is going to stigmatize him in some way that will be irreversible is also kind of laughable when he is going to be, as of Friday, 10 days away from his second inauguration.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. And the reason, just for people who aren't following, he was convicted of the felony, but he's not a convicted felon until he is sentenced. So there is some meaningful difference, at least between who Donald Trump is on Thursday and who he is on Friday.

[Alex Wagner]

After he's been sentenced, particularly given that Judge Merchan has said, I don't intend to sentence him to any incarceration or even probation or any penalties whatsoever. He said in writing his intent is to give him what's called an unconditional discharge. That's basically no penalty whatsoever. All it does is keep the conviction intact. The only reason Donald Trump should or would care about that is because it comes with the label allegation.

[Chris Hayes]

Right. It's the name it's the spin, it's the messaging, it's the pr. Mark. You know, if the court waited so long to hand down the immunity ruling as to render Jack Smith's work moot, the Department of Justice work moot in some ways, accountability moot. If they move in like 48 hours on this, I guess I wonder what you think the long term effects are or the medium or the short term effects are in terms of public perception of the this court.

[Mark Joseph Stern]

Well, the effects should be devastating for the court. Unfortunately. We just had an election where, as Lisa pointed out, you know, the American people saw fit to return Trump to office and didn't seem to mind the court stepping in and running interference for him. But I think that the reality too here is that the law has already been contorted to such an extreme degree that I don't know how much more damage SCOTUS could even do to it. In this particular case, like what we're seeing here is Chief Justice Roberts immunity opinion working as it was intended to work. It is gunking up the justice system. It is a very confusing, imprecise, ambiguous opinion on purpose. Chief Justice Roberts did not explain very cogently or clearly the difference between an official act and an unofficial act. He really raised more questions than he answered. And as the dissenters pointed out at the time, and they were clearly correct, all this did was give Trump ample fodder to delay, delay, delay and appeal every single adverse decision against him on the grounds that there might be some plausible argument that he could seize immunity and use it to prevent here a sentencing in the future, more prosecution, who knows? So, yeah, I think that the Court's image is already pretty tarnished. I'm not sure that its decision making is breaking through as much to the American people as it should. But I definitely think that intercepting a sentence here when Trump doesn't even face prison time would represent one of the more egregious extensions of that immunity decision that I could even contemplate.

[Chris Hayes]

With Justices like these, who needs a separate and co equal branch of government? Lisa Rubin, Mark Joseph Stern, stick around because I have so much more to ask you about. Coming up, the President Elect is desperately trying to stop Attorney General Merrick Garland from releasing Special Counsel Jack Smith's final report on his investigation into January 6th. Will he be successful? That's next. With 12 days to go until Donald Trump is inaugurated and he begins to clean house at the Justice Department, the race is on to salvage what remains of Special Counsel Jack Smith's two criminal cases against Trump. All that is left is the special counsel's two volume report outlining the investigation and charging of both the 2020 election interference case against Trump and the criminal case over Trump's alleged mishandling of classified documents. Today the special Counsel's office revealed that Attorney General Merrick Garland is planning to release part of the report to the public, the volume about Trump's alleged attempts to overturn the 2020 election. But the fate of even that much of the report now rests at the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. Back with me now are MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin and Mark Joseph Stern, senior writer for Slate magazine. Lisa, why can't the Attorney General just release this report?

[Alex Wagner]

Because Judge Cannon, who is Judge Aileen Cannon of the Southern District of Florida, she was the judge who had the Mar A Lago documents case before she decided that it was unconstitutional for a special counsel to have brought that case in the first place. Nonetheless, she decided yesterday that she was going to temporarily enjoin the Attorney General, Jack Smith and anybody working with either one of them, not only from releasing the final report and by that she didn't distinguish between the volumes because they're.

[Chris Hayes]

All bundled together into one big volume report.

[Alex Wagner]

So even though she doesn't have jurisdiction technically over that portion of the report that was the January 6, 2026 case, she enjoined the release of the report and also said to them, you can't even disseminate or convey to people the contents or information of the report in any way beyond the Department of Justice. That means Merrick Garland can't release the report without being in non compliance with the court order.

[Chris Hayes]

So this now goes to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, Mark, and in the before times, that would have been seen as a very conservative court that might not do the bidding of someone who is basically running up against the incoming Republican president, but has been sort of a bastion of level headedness when it comes to Eileen Cannon and her wackadoo rulings. What's your expectation here?

[Mark Joseph Stern]

I do not think that the 11th Circuit will back up Judge Cannon. And I actually just want to clarify Judge Cannon leapt ahead of the 11th Circuit here. TRUMP and his co defendants filed these requests at the 11th Circuit and with Judge Cannon. At the same time, if the 11th Circuit had wanted to block the release of this report or any part of it, it could have done so already. But it didn't. It chose not to. I think that's a good omen and it suggests that the 11th Circuit will not ultimately try to block any of this report. But Judge Cannon wouldn't wait. She couldn't wait for this Superior Court, which, by the way, has total jurisdiction over this case. As Lisa said, Judge Cannon does not have jurisdiction. It's not her case anymore. She couldn't wait for them to act. So she said, I'm going to step in and shield Trump and his co defendants from the release of any part of this report, including provisions of the report that are all about the election subversion case that was tried, or at least attempted to be tried in a D.C. court over which, again, she has no control, no authority, no jurisdiction. So this is a great example of her acting entirely without authority and outside her lane.

[Chris Hayes]

It's just par for the course with Eileen Cannon, isn't it? I mean, she's made a number of these calls that have ultimately humiliated her.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know that Eileen Cannon sees it that way, that she feels humiliated by it. If anything, I think she feels celebrated by the right. And certainly at the press conference that he gave the other day, you saw that with Trump going out of his way to praise her as a brilliant and brave jurist. So Eileen Cannon, while certainly denigrated in some places, is elevated and praised in others, may not be necessarily on this network in this conversation.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, but I just mean the 11th Circuit has slapped her down before in terms of bad rulings.

[Alex Wagner]

Absolutely. The 11th Circuit slapped her down twice during the investigative phase here. You'll remember she tried to appoint a special master to oversee all of the discovery in the case and really prevent the law enforcement agencies here from making use of the things that they seized from Mar A Lago in the first place. It was because of that that the indictment was delayed perhaps longer than it would have been, even though this case was indicted in June of 2023. But putting that aside, yes, Aileen Cannon is a judicial maximalist for all of the reasons that Mark was just outlining, sort of grabbing authority and power that she doesn't have to return what has now become a predictable result for Donald Trump.

[Chris Hayes]

You know, Mark, if the Levin circuit does rule in favor of the doj, if this report, or at least part of this report, actually comes out, what import do you think it has? What weight do you think it will carry?

[Mark Joseph Stern]

I think it will prove conclusively that Jack Smith was right to bring the charges, that Merrick Garland was right to appoint him and to back him up under serious political attack, and that there is a very credible case that Trump committed serious crimes, particularly with regard to January 6th and attempting to overturn the election. You know, Jack Smith still has his hands on a great deal of evidence that we probably have not seen and that we won't see until if this report is released. If it is released. The public does not deserves to see that. And I very much hope that, frankly, even if Judge Cannon still tries to suppress this report and keep it from the public, that maybe Joe Biden and Merrick Garland decide that that immunity decision that the Supreme Court handed down, it works for Democratic presidents, too. And maybe Joe Biden needs to step in and ensure that the public sees this record of crime, because otherwise Trump is going to step in and wipe it off the books forever.

[Chris Hayes]

Lisa Rubin, MSNBC legal correspondent, and Mark Joseph Stern, senior writer for Slate. Thank you both for your time and wisdom, guys. Appreciate you. Coming up, we're going to check again on the raging wildfires in Los Angeles. The latest from California is coming up next. Across Los Angeles county, at least five people are dead and more than 100,000 are under mandatory evacuation orders as multiple wildfires continue to rage across the area. And breaking just in the last hour, there is a new and fast moving fire that has started in the Hollywood Hills. Right now it's being referred to as the Sunset Fire and the Los Angeles Fire Department has issued a mandatory evacuation for parts of that area. MSNBC will of course, continue to follow this very kinetic and destructive situation as we have more information throughout the evening. So please stay with our coverage. But as of now, that is our show for tonight.

[Rachel Maddow]

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