Diversity Fire

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner: "Diversity Fire" – Episode Summary

Released on February 13, 2025

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Introduction

In the "Diversity Fire" episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, host Alex Wagner delves deep into the Trump administration's aggressive campaign against Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) policies. This episode provides an in-depth exploration of the real-world impacts of President Donald Trump's executive orders aimed at dismantling DEI initiatives within federal agencies, particularly the Department of Education. Through interviews with affected federal employees, legal experts, and conservative activists, Wagner paints a comprehensive picture of the ongoing struggle over DEI in the United States.

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Trump Administration's Assault on DEI

Alex Wagner opens the episode by outlining President Trump's recent executive actions targeting DEI programs. The administration has initiated a series of executive orders designed to terminate all federal DEI initiatives. This move represents a significant shift from the previous administration's support for diversity and inclusion efforts.

Notable Quote:

Alex Wagner [01:20]: "The President has ordered all federal employees... to end all federal Diversity, Equity and Inclusion or DEI programs."

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Case Studies: Department of Education Employees on Administrative Leave

Wagner presents firsthand accounts from federal employees at the Department of Education who have been placed on administrative leave due to their involvement with DEI initiatives, despite their roles not being directly related to DEI.

1. Tim’s Story

   Tim, an anonymous Department of Education employee and member of the American Federation of Government Employees Union, shares his experience of receiving a memo that abruptly placed him on paid administrative leave. Despite his role focusing on technical assistance and training, his past participation in a DEIA training session conducted during the previous Trump administration led to his current predicament.

   Notable Quotes:

   Tim [02:32]: "This administrative leave is not being done for any disciplinary purpose."

   Alex Wagner [03:11]: "Tim's access to email had actually been cut off several days before he even received the memo informing him it was going to be cut off."

2. Jill’s Story

   Similarly, Jill, another Department of Education employee and union member, recounts her placement on administrative leave after attending a DEI training. Jill emphasizes that her role primarily revolves around training for accessibility, highlighting the arbitrary nature of the administration's actions against DEI.

   Notable Quotes:

   Jill [05:54]: "I do a lot of training in the department. So the accessibility piece... there isn't anything wrong with DEIA."

   Alex Wagner [06:15]: "What does it say to you that this administration is so intent on and so focused on getting rid of anybody that had anything to do with DEIA?"

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Legal Implications and Expert Analysis

To shed light on the legal aspects of these administrative actions, Wagner interviews Subho Chandra, a civil rights attorney representing affected federal employees. Chandra critiques the administration's policies as not only arbitrary but also potentially violating Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employment discrimination and retaliation.

Notable Quotes:

Subho Chandra [12:24]: "The common thread... is that they either were participants on a committee focused on diversity and inclusion issues."

Chandra [14:07]: "It violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which bars discrimination in employment and retaliation against people for opposing discrimination in employment."

Chandra elaborates on the broader impacts of these policies, noting that the suspension of DEI initiatives could lead to thousands of unaddressed complaints related to disability access, sexual assault, and other civil rights violations.

Notable Quotes:

Chandra [18:18]: "Thousands of Americans that are being affected by these key federal government law enforcement officials being sidelined."

Chandra [19:28]: "Responsibility lawyers will stand up and look at what they're doing and say, we cannot do this."

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Conservative Perspective: Interview with Chris Rufo

The episode features an interview with Chris Rufo, a prominent conservative activist and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Rufo defends the administration's stance against DEI, advocating for a "colorblind" approach to equality and criticizing DEI as a form of discrimination.

Notable Quotes:

Chris Rufo [25:40]: "The President has determined that DEI is a discriminatory type of policy that violates the principle of colorblind equality and the Civil Rights Act of 1964."

Rufo [27:04]: "We're advancing a rival and superior interpretation through the institutions."

Rufo also outlines his broader vision for restructuring the Department of Education, including spinning out the federal student loan portfolio and block granting K-12 funding to states, effectively reducing federal oversight.

Notable Quotes:

Rufo [25:40]: "We should have a system of colorblind equality... judged according to his or her accomplishments rather than his or her ancestry."

Rufo [27:27]: "We're going to offer analysis and support... to see which ideas actually succeed."

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Alex Wagner’s Counterpoints and Analysis

Throughout the episode, Alex Wagner offers critical analysis of Rufo's claims and the administration's policies. She challenges the validity of Rufo's polling data, revealing potential biases and questioning the disconnect between public opinion and administrative actions.

Notable Quotes:

Alex Wagner [22:24]: "It turns out with reason... the polling he was referring to from July of 2024 was conducted by the Manhattan Institute."

Alex Wagner [30:59]: "The ACLU on that very issue... no court has declared DEIA efforts inherently illegal, and President Trump cannot override decades of legal precedent."

Wagner also highlights inconsistencies in the administration's approach, such as the reversal of DEI policies that were previously endorsed, suggesting a lack of coherent strategy.

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Fact-Checking and Public Opinion

Wagner investigates the claims made by Rufo regarding public support for a colorblind society and the unpopularity of the Department of Education. She references external polls to provide a balanced view, indicating that public opinion is not as uniformly in favor of dismantling DEI initiatives as Rufo suggests.

Notable Quotes:

Alex Wagner [28:53]: "A Wall Street Journal poll from last month found that by a nearly 2 to 1 margin, the public opposes closing the Education Department."

Rufo [32:28]: "The Department of Education is the second least popular agency... but many believe we can shift public opinion in our favor."

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Legal Challenges and Future Implications

The episode concludes with an examination of the potential legal battles ahead. Chandra emphasizes the likelihood of these policies being challenged in courts, citing the Civil Rights Act and questioning the legality of retaliating against federal employees for DEI involvement.

Notable Quotes:

Subho Chandra [16:22]: "Where are the lawyers? Did they talk to lawyers at all?"

Chandra [20:14]: "Responsible lawyers will stand up and look at what they're doing and say, we cannot do this."

Additionally, Wagner touches on the broader societal implications, pondering whether the administration’s actions will lead to significant public outcry or remain met with indifference.

Notable Quotes:

Alex Wagner [43:30]: "If that does happen, the question is what the American public does about it, whether this polling is indicative of real sentiment and whether people express their dissatisfaction."

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Conclusion

"Diversity Fire" offers a comprehensive examination of the Trump administration's efforts to dismantle DEI initiatives within federal agencies. Through personal testimonies, expert legal analysis, and conservative viewpoints, Alex Wagner provides listeners with a multifaceted understanding of the ongoing cultural and legal battles surrounding diversity and inclusion in the United States. The episode underscores the tension between administrative policies, legal protections, and public opinion, highlighting the uncertain future of DEI initiatives amidst political upheaval.

---

Notable Quotes Recap:

• Alex Wagner [01:20]: "The President has ordered all federal employees... to end all federal Diversity, Equity and Inclusion or DEI programs."

• Tim [02:32]: "This administrative leave is not being done for any disciplinary purpose."

• Jill [05:54]: "I do a lot of training in the department... nothing is wrong with DEIA."

• Subho Chandra [14:07]: "It violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964."

• Chris Rufo [25:40]: "DEI violates the principle of colorblind equality."

• Alex Wagner [30:59]: "No court has declared DEIA efforts inherently illegal."

---

Final Thoughts

"Trumpland with Alex Wagner: Diversity Fire" serves as a pivotal commentary on the intersection of politics, law, and societal values in contemporary America. By presenting diverse perspectives and scrutinizing the administration's strategies, Wagner invites listeners to critically assess the ramifications of undermining DEI initiatives and the broader quest for equality and inclusion in federal institutions.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Alex Wagner]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Subho Chandra]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. I will also end the government policy of trying to socially engineer race and.

[Alex Wagner]

Gender into every aspect of public and private life.

[Rachel Maddow]

We will forge a society that is.

[Alex Wagner]

Colorblind and merit based. One of the main things the new Trump administration is targeting purging, slashing, pick your verb is Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, better known as dei. President Trump continuing a record setting flurry of executive actions with a new series of orders that aim to end all federal Diversity, Equity and Inclusion or DEI programs. The President has ordered all federal employees.

[Subho Chandra]

Working in diversity, equity and inclusion rolls.

[Chris Rufo]

To be placed on paid leave starting today. This memo, sent from the U.S. office.

[Alex Wagner]

Of Personnel Management to the heads of all federal departments and agencies outlines the President's orders.

[Chris Rufo]

A letter must be sent to employees in DEI roles informing them that they.

[Alex Wagner]

Will be placed on paid administrative leave immediately.

[Tim]

A memorandum dated January 31, 2025 is to me from our Chief Human Capital Officer Officer.

[Alex Wagner]

We spoke with an employee of the Department of Education who received this memo. He's a member of the American Federation of Government Employ Union, but he asked that we not use his name for the sake of this interview. We'll call him Tim.

[Tim]

This email provides important information regarding your employment status. Effective January 31, 2025, you will be placed on administrative leave with full pay and benefits pursuant to the President's Executive Order on DEIA and further guidance from opm. This administrative leave is not being done for any disciplinary purpose.

[Alex Wagner]

Please note the following the memo is less than a page and it goes on to say that the employee does not need to come into the office, that his email will be susp and that updates will be coming as soon as they are available Tim's access to email had actually been cut off several days before he even received the memo informing him it was going to be cut off.

[Tim]

I did not know immediately what was happening. Those who work specifically in deia, they had lost their access. My daily job is not working in deia, so I was wondering what was going on and could it be related to that?

[Alex Wagner]

Tim's job entails technical assistance and providing training to colleges and universities around the country. But in the end, Tim found out that he was still linked to deia. Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Accessibility.

[Tim]

My supervisor dug deeper into it and found out that it was related to a two day training course I took related to dea. This training took place during Trump's last administration where basically they had asked those that were trying to add more to the repertoire toolkit in terms of leadership skills and in the realm of trying to, you know, better serve the population or your colleagues around you, this training. During that time, Bessie Vos was Secretary of Education and they actually sent an actual memo out, you know, encouraging employees to take this training and that they were in support of this training. So, you know, that was, I would say, roughly over five years ago or more, you talking around the 2019 timeframe. So, you know, to my dismay, is now 2025 and I'm receiving a letter many days after many others received this letter saying access had been revoked or cut off. Oh, cut off.

[Alex Wagner]

So you took a training that was run or sanctioned, supported by the Trump administration, and then because you took that training years ago, you're basically being targeted and your ax has been shut off and you're on administrative leave at the Department of Education, is that right?

[Tim]

Absolutely.

[Jill]

Probably over five years ago, I took a diversity training.

[Alex Wagner]

We spoke with another employee from the Department of Education and member of the American Federation of Government Employees Union who has also been put on administrative leave after having received the same memo. Like Tim, we aren't going to use her real name. We'll call her Jill. She too took this DEI training during the first Trump administration and she told us what she learned when I took.

[Jill]

The training that I was able to make it impactful for me. I do a lot of training in the department. So the accessibility piece, which is rarely mentioned, D E I A actually, so as a trainer, this is actually I was also being complicit with the law. So I just made sure that the trainings were 508 compliant, meaning people with disabilities would be able to view the presentations without any issues. I provided transcripts, made sure captions were on and Things of that nature. Also making sure that there weren't any sudden flashing pictures for people who may be prone to epilepsy or seizures. That's what I was concerned about, accessibility.

[Alex Wagner]

Like Tim, her job is not related to deia.

[Jill]

That was the extent of my involvement with deia. Not that there's anything wrong with deia, you know, because there's a lot of value in having diverse teams and making sure that opportunities are equitable and that you include everyone.

[Alex Wagner]

What does it say to you that this administration is so intent on and so focused on getting rid of anybody that had anything to do with DEIA that they're willing to basically put on administrative leave? People who were only, like, glancingly involved in this stuff. What does it all mean to you?

[Jill]

Honestly, it. The word vindictive comes to mind. I'm like, I don't understand. It just seems like it's a retaliation for something, but I don't know what exactly. Like, who.

[Alex Wagner]

Who.

[Jill]

Who hurt you? You know, who hurt you? Why are you doing this? It's. The policies should be clear and consistent. You can't encourage something one day and then punish it the next day. You're thinking you're doing a great thing, something to be very proud of, and then, you know, you're educating yourself. It's also professional growth, and I value professional growth. Prior to coming to the department, I was a high school English teacher for five years. So I've always valued education. I've been in the education sector for over two decades, so I'm not one to just sit by when the training is made available and being encouraged and say, oh, I'm not gonna take it. You have go getters. A lot of go getters took that training.

[Alex Wagner]

It's also so representative of just a real change in thinking about the importance of diversity and whether diversity even matters. And in fact, not only does this administration saying diversity doesn't matter, but that if you have been involved in it as a concept, that's bad. I wonder how you think about that.

[Jill]

When I hear Trump say, you know, he's getting rid of the woke crap. If he's equating DEIA with an automatic seat to minorities for opportunity. And that's not what it is. DEIA is just making sure that people with disabilities have access, equal access to opportunities and basic functions. You know, making sure that a wheelchair can roll up on the sidewalk easily is a part of DIA initiatives, things of that nature. So, like, what's the reason? What's the purpose behind this? I actually read that he wanted to remove radicals from the department.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And I'm like, I'm not a radical. I'm a civil servant. I am a civil servant. And what I really want the American public to understand is that civil servants are your neighbors. 80% of civil servants live outside of the Washington, D.C. area. They're everywhere, all across the nation. They're your neighbors, they're your friends, they're your friends of your friends, family members. They're in the libraries, they're in the post office. Civil servants are everywhere. And most civil servants have something intrinsic within them that just wants to give back.

[Alex Wagner]

Both of these employees have spent decades working for the government in some capacity. Before his job at the Department of Education, Tim served in the military. His wife is currently on active duty. Tim's job allows him to take care of the kids when she travels for work. Jill went to college through help from agencies under the Department of Education. And that's why she's devoted nearly 20 years to working for that department after first working as a teacher. These are some of the people being singled out in Donald Trump's quest to rid the government of diversity and inclusion. And given the chaos and disregard with which this is all being carried out, it's not even clear whether people like Tim and Jill are the intended targets or simply just collateral damage. As with many things Trump, it is possible that the turmoil and the confusion and the fear are all just part of the point. This is Trumpland with Alex Wagner. This week we dig into the Trump administration's full scale assault on dei, the war on Woke. We speak with one of the people representing the employees caught in the DEI madness.

[Subho Chandra]

If you can be attacked as a federal employee for standing up for those values, then what is the message that they're trying to send?

[Alex Wagner]

And one of the architects of the conservative battle against diversity, equity and inclusion.

[Chris Rufo]

Diversity, equity and inclusion. That sounds great. Include a wide range of people, treat people equally, and make sure that people of a variety of backgrounds feel included. But this is a lie.

[Alex Wagner]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Alex Wagner]

Let's get up to We've got some breaking news right now.

[Rachel Maddow]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Alex Wagner]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Subho Chandra]

I do think it's worth being very.

[Alex Wagner]

Clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

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[Alex Wagner]

The union representing Education Department employees says that at least 74 employees in the union, plus another 25 non union managers were placed on leave for their supposed ties to deia. We reached out to numerous employees who were placed on leave and most of them didn't want to speak with us on the record because they were understandably concerned about potential retaliation. Many of them have sought legal counsel.

[Subho Chandra]

I represent several U.S. department of Education Office for Civil Rights employees who were placed on administrative leave on the night of January 31.

[Alex Wagner]

Subho Chandra is a civil rights attorney. Last week he sent a letter to the acting and deputy general counsels at the Department of Education demanding they end the administrative leave while insisting it never should have occurred at all.

[Subho Chandra]

The common thread that seems to unite almost all of these individuals is that they either were participants on a committee focused on diversity and inclusion issues, and in some instances the individuals placed on leave had simply attended a training on diversity. So that's the common thread. And interestingly we've heard now not just from Office for Civil Rights employees who are law enforcement officials, but also from other US Department of Education employees outside of OCR who share the same theme.

[Alex Wagner]

It's very Orwellian, right? The idea that you would go to this training session that was supported and scheduled by Trump and his administration officials in the first term.

[Subho Chandra]

And this is the committee, right? Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And then be targeted by the second Trump administration for doing what you were supposed to have done. I mean, it's just like a staggering about face, I guess. I can't get over how just what a stunning example it is of that.

[Subho Chandra]

Well, and what is truly bizarre about the whole thing is that dei, or deia, as it says in the presidential executive order, is diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility. And so if you can be attacked as a federal employee for standing up for those values, particularly at the invitation of the first Trump administration, then what is the message that they're trying to send? That their preference instead. Instead, they venerate uniformity, inequity, exclusion, and inaccessibility. It doesn't make any sense. It's almost a perversion of language where they are trying to demonize something that at the end of the day is just anti discrimination activity. That's what it is. It's people who are participating on a committee to ensure that the department doesn't discriminate in hiring, promotions, assignments, how people are treated. And there's just nothing inherently wrong with that, unless you're a white supremacist or a Nazi. So it's bizarre. And my contention is that it violates Title VII of the Civil Rights act of 1964, which bars discrimination in employment and bars retaliation against people for opposing discrimination in employment.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I mean, that's where a lot of this. There's the sort of sociocultural aspect and the sort of currency that that DEI has in American culture and American politics. But then there's the law, right? The Civil Rights law is pretty clear on this. And I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit more on that, because I know you sent a letter to the Department of Education's general counsel.

[Subho Chandra]

Title VII of the Civil Rights act of 1964 is clear. It bars discrimination based on race, gender, national origin, color, sex, and other protected characteristics that we're all familiar with. And at the same time, it protects employees from facing retaliation when they have opposed such discrimination. And one of the things, Alex, that I keep asking myself is, where are the lawyers?

[Alex Wagner]

Right.

[Subho Chandra]

Who are these lawyers that are telling them this is okay? Did they talk to lawyers at all? And if they did, did those lawyers go get their law degrees at Trump University? What. What is going on here? Yeah, so that, that's what I'm left with, is utter bafflement as to how anybody could have thought this was a good idea legally set aside morally.

[Alex Wagner]

I wonder if you have a theory about how they went about targeting these specific employees. On its face, it sounds like the Office of Civil Rights. If you're, you know, a random DOGE employee parachuting in with the mandate to eradicate wokeness, the Office of Civil Rights. That sounds woke. So let's get rid of That, I mean, do you think it might be as simple as that?

[Subho Chandra]

It appears that somebody was doing some search terms or looking at a list maybe of committee members, looking at lists of people who attended training or just doing some sort of a word search and then immediately started engaging in sniper fire against these employees. And I'm not suggesting that it would be okay to take out these employees if their full time jobs were related to diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility. I'm not suggesting that at all. But the fact is that the employees that I've come into contact with and become aware of within the Office for Civil Rights and outside of the Office for Civil Rights in the Department of Education who've been subjected to this are all individuals who do not have diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility as part of their full time operations within the department. They're not the Chief Diversity officer. They don't hold titles of that kind at all. One is involved in contracting in the Department of Ed, the OCR employees. You're talking about a regional director, you're talking about a chief attorney. You're talking about people whose full time day to day jobs is enforcing the civil rights laws to benefit ordinary Americans. And I think that's an important part of the conversation.

[Alex Wagner]

Right. And not that you should and can be fired because you worked on DEI stuff, but these folks didn't even do that. That wasn't what they were working on.

[Subho Chandra]

No. And I want to add one other thing, Alex. The truth is, if you think about the thousands of Americans that are being affected by these key federal government law enforcement officials being sidelined, we're talking about thousands and thousands of people who are not going to properly have their complaints concerning disability access in K through 12 schools, Title IX complaints involving sexual assault on college campuses, the antisemitism complaints that the administration claims it wants to pursue. Those kinds of claims are not getting properly processed because so many key law enforcement officials have been sidelined that the backlog that OCR has already been experiencing for years due to chronic understaffing is going to be even more exacerbated. My understanding from one of my clients is that there are at least 1,000 new complaints that are just going unreviewed right now.

[Alex Wagner]

It all seems so haphazard and potentially unlawful and also stupid. Do you feel like at some point someone over there is going to come to their senses and say actually we did this wrong?

[Subho Chandra]

That's what I'm really hoping, Alex. That's why I sent the letter I sent. One would hope that somewhere in the midst of all this craziness that the administration is engaged in, that responsible lawyers will stand up and look at what they're doing and say, we cannot do this. This violates Title VII of the Civil Rights act of 1964. We cannot retaliate against federal employees because they have engaged in anti discrimination activities within the office.

[Alex Wagner]

Chandra explains that the Department of Education has 10 business days to place someone on administrative leave while an investigation is conducted. But in this case, the department never even explained why the leave was happening to begin with. The deadline to either extend or end that leave is Tomorrow, Friday the 14th. By the time we recorded this podcast, Chandra's clients hadn't heard anything. We'll be right back.

[Rachel Maddow]

MSNBC Presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Alex Wagner]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.

[Subho Chandra]

I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.

[Rachel Maddow]

Main justice substantial. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content.

[Subho Chandra]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast why Is this Happening?

[Alex Wagner]

Bloomberg News reporter Zeke Fox on what the heck's happening with crypto?

[Chris Rufo]

What crypto is good for is crazy gambling, and there's a very big group of people around the world who've realized this is kind of fun. I like gambling on crypto. I know somebody who made a lot of money on it. Maybe I should try to find the next bitcoin. That's this week on why Is this Happening?

[Subho Chandra]

Search for why Is this Happening?

[Alex Wagner]

Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Alex Wagner]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues.

[Chris Rufo]

But as you look to kind of.

[Alex Wagner]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content.

[Alex Wagner]

The battle over dei, the war on so called wokeness, has been a long time in the making and nowhere is that more apparent than in Florida.

[Chris Rufo]

One of the items that we discussed today with Governor DeSantis and legislators present is that diversity, equity and inclusion, which sounds great but in practice divides people and offers separate judgments on the basis of race and identity.

[Alex Wagner]

That's the voice Of Christopher Ruffo, a conservative activist and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, speaking in Florida in 2023. He's not an educator by training or profession, nor is he from Florida for that matter, but his influence on the state's education system, and now very possibly the country's, is hard to even measure. Following the summer of racial justice protests in 2020, Rufo was successful in sparking conservative pushback to racial equity measures like DEI policies. He began using the term critical race theory, in reality an advanced legal theory. He began using that term as a derisive catch all term to describe teachings about slavery and racism and related topics that might make someone feel bad about their race. This war against so called critical race theory and wokeness in general led to widespread school board protests and takeovers, as well as actual laws banning the supposed practice. Florida was ground zero. Governor Ron DeSantis message was clear.

[Chris Rufo]

He wants to stop woke activism.

[Alex Wagner]

That's the name of the new legislative.

[Jill]

Proposal he announced on Wednesday, the stop.

[Alex Wagner]

The wrongs to our kids and employees act. What would it do?

[Jill]

Block critical race theory from schools and workplaces.

[Alex Wagner]

In 2023, Rufo also became involved in Governor DeSantis hostile takeover of new college of Florida, A small liberal arts school in Sarasota that became the test case for the war on Woke. I spent a good part of 2023 covering that takeover.

[Jill]

There's an intrusion into the classroom in a way that we haven't seen before.

[Alex Wagner]

People are taking books off their syllabuses.

[Jill]

People are taking books off their syllabi. People are shutting down programs.

[Alex Wagner]

People are not teaching certain classes. We've been hearing words like woke, critical.

[Jill]

Race theory for years now. I could not tell you what they mean. I literally could not tell you.

[Alex Wagner]

Like when woke, you mean, you know, practicing basic empathy, like valuing people who are part of your community. Critical race, the theory. You mean American history? Like it's so confusing. After making a name for himself in Florida, Rufo seems to be setting his sights on Washington. Last week, Rufo posted a photo on X of the Department of education building in Washington, D.C. with the caption, I'm going in. He went on to say, I will be launching a new campaign to expose ideological corruption at the Department of education beginning next week. The permanent bureaucracy must and will be held to account. Tick tock. Chris Ruffo joined me this week to talk about what exactly is happening at the Department of Education. Okay, so thanks for doing this.

[Chris Rufo]

My pleasure.

[Alex Wagner]

I know that you've been a big booster of cuts to the federal Workforce, especially the Department of Education. So it would be great and helpful just to get a sense of what your role is in the Trump administration at this point.

[Chris Rufo]

Sure. I'm just a friend and advisor to the administration and a number of cabinet teams, and particularly on education. I think that's going to be the next phase in not only the Doge project, but in the president's executive orders, restructuring the government. And the team there is already making progress. When the secretary takes office, I think the pace of progress will accelerate, and shortly enough, it will be all systems go.

[Alex Wagner]

I guess when you say you're a friend to the administration, I know you posted images on Twitter that said I'm going in, and that you're in the inner sanctum of the secretary's office. Can you help me understand what you were doing there in. I guess it doesn't sound like in an official capacity.

[Chris Rufo]

Yeah, I mean, I, as a policy analyst and advisor, I took meetings with the department's leadership team to talk to them about some of the potential reforms that they might consider, both related to the Department of Education and also related to reforms to the higher education and university systems. And, you know, a lot of these folks are people I've been working with for a number of years in other capacities. And now that they're in office, some of the ideas we've been thinking about, certainly since 2020, have the chance of actually becoming policy. And so to the extent that I can offer valuable advice, assistance, feedback, you know, I'm very excited and very happy to do so.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I mean, it does sound like it's. Again, this is just going by the Twitter stuff, but the idea is, I mean, it sounds a little bit more, for lack of a better term, aggressive than feedback and proposals. It sounds like you're very much involved in the fight to restructure the department. But let me know if that's a mischaracterization.

[Chris Rufo]

Sure. I mean, it's up to others to determine the language about it. But, you know, I've been working on higher education reform in Florida, around the country, and now there's an opportunity to get some of the, what I think are good ideas and good policies that we've been implementing at the state level, translating those to the national level. And, you know, the department is in great hands, a lot of very talented, very smart people. But like any government, they'll need help on the outside, both in media, in policy, in offering analysis and support. And so, you know, that's what I'm doing. And we'll see. I think in the coming weeks and months, which ideas come to the forefront and which ideas actually succeed.

[Alex Wagner]

I'd love to know kind of how you, what you think of the restructuring thus far. And in particular today, I spoke with a number of Department of Education employees who were put on administrative leave. And they were told based on the memo that they received, that it was because of their affiliation with deia. Diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. They don't actually work on any of those issues, but a number of them attended a DEIA training session that was sponsored and in some cases mandated by the first Trump administration. That's when they attended these seminars and these training sessions, and that appears to be the reason why they've been put on leave. Does that bother you? I mean, do you feel like that's the right kind of reform that should be happening at the Department of Education?

[Chris Rufo]

I mean, I obviously don't have the particular names or job descriptions of the people that you're talking about, but the president's executive order was quite clear. He determined that DEI is a discriminatory type of policy that violates the principle of colorblind equality and the Civil Rights act of 1964. And he instructed his administration to immediately terminate all DEI policies and programs and to put on leave any employees that are responsible for administering those discriminatory policies and programs. And if anything, I think that the department has not gone far enough. I think that there should be much more significant reforms. I think that the federal student loan portfolio should be spun out into a separate agency with more expertise on financial markets. I think that The K through 12 student funding should be block granted to states, and I think the rest of the department should just be dissolved and the majority of the 4,000 employees encouraged to seek other opportunities elsewhere.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And I know you have a sort of breathtaking set of proposals that you'd like to see instituted at the federal level. I guess I'm trying to get at the idea that, you know, the standard for expulsion or, you know, being put on leave seems to be super porous and not particularly focused. I mean, this is from talking to people directly affected by this who literally just don't work on DEI issues at all. But who, for example, did it. But let me, let me just get one your thought on this, because they did. There were literally DEIA trainings that were supported by, that were discussed, you know, publicly by the education secretary, Betsy DeVos, under President Trump in Trump 1, for lack of a better term. And now in Trump 2, we're seeing a wholesale reversal of that. And I Wonder if you think that there's anything, shall we say, hypocritical about that or problematic about a set of mandates that were instituted. People followed the rules, they followed the letter of the law, and now they're being punished for that. Or even just the Trump administration's reversal on DEI policy writ large?

[Chris Rufo]

Yeah, I mean, first, I'd be very skeptical regarding the facts. You know, I don't think that the Department of Education team has. Has mistakenly placed on leave employees who are not affiliated with dei. And so I'd be very curious to get the actual details of these, because the stories that I've seen and the cases that I've seen across the public media were all individuals that were intimately and integrally involved in the DEI programs and DEI departments. And in fact, I think that those departments had a massive footprint in the Department of Education. And if anything, the opposite is probably true. Many of the people who were working on DEI may have not yet been identified and placed on leave.

[Alex Wagner]

So you don't think there's any possibility that in this sweeping set of memoranda that went out, that people. And it sounds like it's mostly DOGE employees that are doing this, that they maybe got it wrong?

[Chris Rufo]

I mean, look, it's hypothetically possible, but I haven't seen a single factually substantiated instance of that happening. Well, since that happens, there's always the possibility of reversing it. You know, large restructurings, there are sometimes mistakes, but so far, I haven't seen that at all. And again, if anything, the number of employees total who have been placed on leave is far less than the total number of DEI employees. And so I think there's still actually much more room to go. And if anything, it's the other side of the coin that has to. That has to turn.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, a number of these employees have now retained legal counsel. They've written a letter to the acting counsel and the deputy counsel at the Department of Education, in part saying, you know, the lawyer said that retaliating against employees who've participated in efforts that, again, were set in place by Trump himself is prohibited by law. They're seeking legal recourse here. They believe their lawyer believes that this may be a violation of the Civil Rights Act. I kind of wonder. I mean, I know you have big feelings about the 1964 Civil Rights act, and I know you think it's, in part, overly broad and has been weaponized by the left. Could you talk about your concern that some of this attempts to roll back the. Some people would Say roll back the clock, but I guess roll back efforts that have been made towards a more diverse, inclusive and accessible society that, that no longer should be protected under federal law. Do you want to talk a little bit about how you think the civil rights laws that we have right now factor into any of the work that's being done by this administration?

[Chris Rufo]

Sure, yeah. I mean, I think that the President has made concrete steps to improve the equal protection under the law for every American. And the basic premise of his executive orders rescinding affirmative action. Lyndon Johnson's affirmative action executive order rescinding the Biden Harris administration's DEI executive orders is to simply say, in America we should have a system of colorblind equality in which each individual is treated, is judged according to his or her accomplishments rather than his or her ancestry. I don't think that whether you call it affirmative action or DEI or as Ibram Kendi has done, positive discrimination, I think it's time in the United States to say we're just going to treat everyone equally as an individual. We're going to adopt a policy of colorblind equality, which I think is what most people believe is the spirit of the Civil Rights act of 1964, and we're going to turn that into law. Again. I don't think any individual should be judged according to his or her race for hiring, for promotions, for loan terms, for advancement. And the public agrees by a 60 point margin. When you poll Americans, do you want a colorblind society or a race conscious society? They want a colorblind society by a massive 4 to 1 margin. And so I think that our interpretation of civil rights law is not only correct on the merits and the morals, but is actually in line with the vast majority of the American public.

[Alex Wagner]

It would seem to me that that question, probably context really matters on that. I mean, I think the idea of a society that doesn't punish people on basis of race is probably a dream shared by a lot of people, regardless of partisan affiliation. But the practical implication of disassembling civil rights protections that have existed for the better part of half a century, I mean, maybe if you phrase it like that. However, I don't know which poll you're talking about. And I feel like in lieu of getting into the weeds of like, what specifically should happen vis a vis the anti woke agenda, I just, I guess I'm trying to understand, like, do you believe that the, you think the American public is with you on this? Are you confident that the courts are gonna be with you on this? Because I Think back to the Stop Woke act in Florida, Right. Which sought to prevent private companies from holding mandatory diversity training. But the courts blocked that and found that that violated the first and 14th Amendments of the Constitution. Like, the law is not necessarily that fungible on this. And I wonder, tell me a little bit about how you see this holding up legally.

[Chris Rufo]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna hold up beautifully legally. I mean, and you've seen the kind of prelude to this with, for example, the Students for Fair Admissions versus Harvard case. And the Supreme Court has clearly said the best way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. And so I think we have a 5, 4, if not a 6, 3 majority on the courts as we're gonna challenge some of these questions, and we'll get rulings in favor of colorblind equality. I think that that is we're in very strong position legally, and in fact, DEI is in a very weak and vulnerable position. And that's why we're seeing companies like Facebook and Google and Disney rapidly dropping their discriminatory DEI policies, because they fear that they're gonna be held liable for millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in judgments for violating civil rights law. And the basic politics is this. The left has dominated the interpretation of civil rights law for more than a half century. And now those of us on the right have come up with a rival and superior interpretation, and now we're advancing it through the institutions. And so I'm happy to have this fight. And I think that as we make the case, for example, even in California or Washington state, where I live, when you ask voters and they did this through initiatives, do you want to have affirmative action or DEI style discrimination, even in California, they reject it. And so, you know, if you guys can't make the case in California, I have big warnings for you about the country as a whole.

[Alex Wagner]

When you talk about the work of dismantling, for example, the Department of Education, which fits with another part of this, I'm gonna call it Woke agenda, the polling suggests that the vast majority of the American public doesn't support getting rid of the doe. I mean, should that matter?

[Chris Rufo]

The polling is a little complicated. And so the Department of Education is the second least popular agency in the United States behind only irs. And so the Department of Education is like, one point more popular than the irs, the taxing agency. And I think that the polling is pretty evenly split, but I think that we can successfully mount a public relations campaign and shift public opinion in our favor. And I think that action sometimes creates possibilities on the other side. We saw this in Florida. The public opinion polling at the time said that DeSantis should not pick a fight with Disney. He picked the fight. He polarized opinion. He won the fight. And then on the other side, he was rewarded with a massive reelection victory. And so I think that the fundamentals are on our side. And I think that with, you know, and I'm, I'm preparing this right now with a successful, you know, persuasion campaign exposing the corruption of the Department of Education, I think we can win the fight decisively.

[Alex Wagner]

And you're not worried that states that voted for Trump have a lot more to lose in terms of federal funding if the DOE is shut down?

[Chris Rufo]

Like I said, I'm an advocate of actually block granting the K through 12 funding directly to the states. And I'd actually be open to slightly increasing the total dollar amount of funding that goes to states so that state education officials, local education officials, can actually have some of that budget to help their students. And we can pay for that by getting rid of the federal bureaucracy. And so the idea that we'd be somehow defunding education under at least my plan, it just doesn't hold water.

[Alex Wagner]

And you feel good about Republicans in Congress spending more money on education?

[Chris Rufo]

Well, this would be a budget neutral measure. You'd take savings from eliminating the bureaucracy and forwarding those savings to the public. Look, we're gonna have to tackle spending, but these are incremental changes. And so you have to take the win where you can. And I think that that would be the most prudent way moving forward.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, Chris, I don't know anybody who would say anything about this moment feels incremental, but I guess everything's up for debate.

[Chris Rufo]

It's incremental because, you know, the long term vision is something, you know, more dramatic and radical than you might imagine. Now, if this feels more than incremental, you'll have to get ready.

[Alex Wagner]

So there are a couple of things we want to follow up on here. Chris Rufo said Americans want a colorblind society versus a race conscious society by a 60 point margin. Well, it turns out it's more like a 47% margin. But that's not the most questionable part of his statement. I was in the interview skeptical about the wording of that poll, and it turns out with reason, because it appears the poll he was referring to from July of 2024 was conducted by the Manhattan Institute, the conservative group where Rufo works. And it asks people to choose between two options. Number one, a colorblind society where everyone is treated equally regardless of the color of their skin and number two, a race conscious society to repair the harms of the past by developing policies that benefit marginalized groups. Is it a surprise that the majority of respondents chose option one? I'm not sure this qualifies as an unbiased poll. Secondly, Rufo said that the Department of Education is the second least popular agency in the country, and there is polling to support the notion that the department is unpopular, though not quite as unpopular as Rufo maintains. But that doesn't mean Americans support closing the entire agency down. And that is a really important distinction. A Wall Street Journal poll from last month found that By a nearly 2 to 1 margin, the public opposes closing the Education Department. 34% wanted the department eliminated, 61% do not. And finally, Rufo said that President Trump had determined that DEIA is a discriminatory type of policy that violates the Civil Rights act of 1964. Here's the ACLU on that very issue. Programs labeled as DEIA encompass a broad range of lawful initiatives that create fairer workplaces and schools. The executive orders attempt to conflate these lawful efforts with discrimination. However, no court has declared DEIA efforts inherently illegal, and President Trump cannot override decades of legal precedent. The reality, of course, is that these actions to fire thousands of federal workers with little explanation to shutter cabinet agencies unilaterally. Much of this is likely to end up in the courts. It already has. And Chris Ruffo is right when he says that conservatives may have a 6:3 majority on the Supreme Court to uphold a right wing reinterpretation of civil rights law and make a u turn away from the last half century of legal precedent. If that does happen, the question is what the American public does about it, whether this polling is indicative of real sentiment and whether people express their dissatisfaction, maybe even their anger in any meaningful way. Trump and his allies like Chris Ruffo imagine that they have the will of the people behind them and that their efforts to reshape some of our most basic American values are sanctioned by the public itself. Whether they are right or wrong about that will be determined by the reaction to all of this, either the outcry or the silence.

[Chris Rufo]

Foreign.

[Alex Wagner]

We'Ll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner. To get this show and other MSNBC podcasts ad free, be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. Trumpland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs, along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Jamaris Perez. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory, Katie Lau, and Mark Yoshizumi and Bryson Barnes is head of audio production, Matthew Alexander is the executive producer of Alex Wagner Tonight, and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

[Rachel Maddow]

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