← Trumpland with Alex Wagner
Trumpland with Alex Wagner
Hegseth squirms as Democrats hammer poor character, weak qualifications to be defense secretary
00:42:06
Though clearly prepared in advance with techniques to avoid addressing the many concerns raised about his qualifications to be secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth still struggled as Democrats unloaded questions about his serial infidelities, sexual assault accusations, drinking problem, lack of leadership experience and other shortcomings at his confirmation hearing. Senator Tim Kaine talks with Alex Wagner about why Donald Trump has made a mistake in choosing Fox News personality Hegseth.
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- [00:01]
Rachel Maddow
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- [00:43]
Alex Wagner
Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.
- [00:45]
Rachel Maddow
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [00:48]
Alex Wagner
How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?
- [00:54]
Rachel Maddow
The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [01:00]
Alex Wagner
It was 63 days ago that Donald Trump announced his intention to nominate Fox News host Pete Hegseth as his secretary of defense. And in those 63 days, the American public learned a lot about Pete Hegseth. There were his controversial public positions, like his defense of accused and convicted war criminals, his contempt for the Geneva Conventions, and his repeated insistence that women in the military should not serve in combat roles. And then came a flood of revelations about Hegseth's personal life. First, there was the discovery that he had entered into a settlement with a woman who accused him of sexually assaulting her at a conference in 2017. Hegseth denied that allegation, but soon other stories were surfacing, stories about Hegseth's reputation for drunkenness on the job, both as the head of two veterans organizations and as a weekend host on Fox News. There were also stories about his financial mismanagement of the organizations he led, and stories alleging a history of cruel and offensive public behavior, like drunkenly chanting Kill all Muslims at at a bar in Ohio. All of that made it look like Pete Hegseth might, just might just fail to get the Republican support he needed to become Trump's next defense secretary. And a lot of the attention about Hagseth's fate fell on one senator in particular, Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa. Senator Ernst is herself a sexual assault survivor, something she has spoken openly about in the past.
- [02:25]
Senator Joni Ernst
Abuse is not something you can just simply forget. It stays with you forever. And I know this personally.
- [02:38]
Alex Wagner
As a.
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Senator Joni Ernst
Survivor and as a United States senator. I feel it is important to be a voice for the thousands of victims across Iowa and so many more across our nation who have Fallen prey to sexual assault, to rape, to harassment and other forms of abuse.
- [03:02]
Alex Wagner
Again, that is Senator Joni Ernst saying she feels it is important to be a voice for victims of sexual assault and rape and harassment. Senator Ernst is also a veteran, which made Hegseth's comments about women in the military seemingly a particularly tough pill for her to swallow. Here is how Senator Ernst spoke about Pete Hegseth just last month.
- [03:24]
Senator Joni Ernst
I did have a very long, lengthy discussion with Pete yesterday, and I do appreciate his service to the nation. I also am a combat veteran. So we talked about a number of those issues, and we will continue with the vetting process. I think that that is incredibly important. So, again, all I'm saying is we had a very frank and productive discussion, and I know that we will continue to have conversation in the upcoming months.
- [03:54]
Alex Wagner
Okay.
- [03:54]
Senator Tim Kaine
It doesn't sound on your answer that.
- [03:56]
Alex Wagner
You'Ve gotten to a yes.
- [03:58]
Mark Wayne Mullen
If I'm wrong about that, correct me.
- [04:01]
Alex Wagner
And if that is the case, it.
- [04:02]
Ben Rhodes
Sounds to me as if the hearing.
- [04:04]
Senator Tim Kaine
Will be critical for his nomination.
- [04:07]
Ben Rhodes
Am I right about that?
- [04:08]
Senator Joni Ernst
I think. I think you are right. I think for a number of our senators, they want to make sure that any allegations have been cleared, and that's why we have to have a very thorough vetting process.
- [04:22]
Alex Wagner
Now, Senator Ernst signaling that Pete Hegseth did not necessarily have her support was a big deal because it would take only four Republican defections to kill his nomination. As a veteran and a sexual assault survivor, Ernst's vote was especially critical. And just last month, Senator Ernst was very much on the fence, as you can see in that interview. But in the days since, Republican senators and especially Joni Ernst have been on the receiving end of an unprecedented pressure campaign from Donald Trump and his allies. An Elon Musk backed pressure group spent more than half a million dollars on ads supporting Hegseth, including this ad which reportedly targeted Ernst's home state of Iowa.
- [05:05]
Rachel Maddow
Pete Hegseth is a patriot. The Deep State is trying to stop his nomination, but Pete isn't backing down. Call your senator today and urge them to confirm Pete Hegseth, her secretary of defense.
- [05:18]
Alex Wagner
That is just the tip of the iceberg. As the New Yorker's Jane Mayer reports this week, the amount of private money being spent on the effort to convict Hegseth is staggering. For a cabinet nominee, the sum is rivaled only by the cash that has been spent to pressure senators into confirming Supreme Court justices. One group, American Leadership pac, reportedly plans to spend a million dollars to muscle wavering Republican senators in five states into approving Hegseth. According to the most recent FEC records, the group barely exists other than as a political piggy bank for four enormously wealthy right wing mega donors. Those four mega donors are Timothy Dunn, a Texas oil Magn, Bill Koch, a member of the right wing mega rich Koch family. Richard Uline, the Wisconsin billionaire who happens to be a major funder of election conspiracy groups, and Thomas Klingenstein, the head of the ultra conservative Claremont Institute, which he founded with Trump's election denying co conspirator John Eastman. And all of that money appears to have been well spent. It has paid off. At today's hearing, Senator Ernst began her questioning by entering into the official record a letter of support for Pete Hegseth. And from there, it was pretty clear where this is going. Ernst spent half of her time asking about Hegseth's commitment to auditing the Pentagon before asking some perfunctory questions about women and sexual assault in the military, largely agreeing with Hegseth's answers on both. It was not an adversarial line of questioning. In fact, it was hardly questioning. At the same time, the New Yorker reports that Senator Ernst turned down offers to hear privately from Hegseth's sexual assault accuser. Now, earlier tonight, Senator Ernst denied that reporting, saying she never received a request from the accuser or her lawyer. Either way, any meeting between Senator Ernst and the victim is unlikely to happen, despite Ernst's announced desire to have any allegation cleared and to be a voice for victims of sexual assault. And that meeting is unlikely to happen because shortly after the hearing, Senator Ernst told a conservative radio host that she will now officially support Pete Hegseth's nomination.
- [07:32]
Mark Wayne Mullen
I thought it was a good hearing for him.
- [07:34]
Ben Rhodes
Does he have your vote?
- [07:36]
Senator Joni Ernst
I am breaking news, Simon. I figured you would ask this. So, yes, I will be supporting President Trump's pick for Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth.
- [07:49]
Alex Wagner
Now, Senator Ernst was not the only Republican who effectively rolled over today when it came to vetting Pete Hegseth. In fact, a lot of the questioning from Republicans was utterly embarrassing.
- [08:01]
Senator Tim Kaine
How many genders are there? Tough one, Senator, There are two genders. How many push ups can you do? I did five sets of 47 this morning.
- [08:11]
Mark Wayne Mullen
The only reason why I'm here and not in prison is because my wife loved me too. Tell me something about your wife that you love.
- [08:18]
Ben Rhodes
Maybe if you could spend a minute just elaborating a little bit about the wokeness, where it comes from and who will be held accountable.
- [08:27]
Alex Wagner
Despite all of that, Democrats did their best to hold Hegseth accountable for his controversial past, including and especially Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia.
- [08:41]
Senator Tim Kaine
You've admitted that you had sex at that hotel in October 2017. You said it was consensual. Isn't that correct? Anything? You've admitted that it was consensual and you were still married and you just had a child by another woman. You had just fathered a child two months before by a woman that was not your wife. I am shocked that you would stand here and say you're completely cleared. Can you so casually cheat on a second wife and cheat on the mother of a child that had been born two months before? And you tell us you are completely cleared. How is that a complete clear? One of your colleagues said that you got drunk at an event at a bar and chanted kill all Muslims. Another colleague, not anonymous we have this said that you took coworkers to a strip club. You were drunk, you tried to dance with strippers, you had to be held off the stage, and one of your employees in that event filed a sexual harassment charge as a result of it. Now, I know you denied these things, but isn't that the kind of behavior that, if true, would be disqualifying for somebody to be secretary of defense? Senator Anonymous false charges? They're not anonymous.
- [09:54]
Alex Wagner
Joining me now to discuss all of this is Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Senator, thank you so much for being here tonight. Let me first just get your reaction to the news. We got just about an hour ago that Senator Joni Ernst, who's long been seen as maybe one of the Republican linchpins to Pete Hegseth's nomination, is going to indeed vote for his confirmation. What are your thoughts?
- [10:16]
Senator Tim Kaine
Alex I'm shocked, but not surprised.
- [10:21]
Alex Wagner
Can you elaborate on that a little bit more? For a while there, it looked like she was not going to be an easy vote. It looked like she, given her background and her priorities, was going to try and hold Hegseth to perhaps a higher standard than other Republicans. What's your estimate of what happened in the interim between then and now?
- [10:40]
Senator Tim Kaine
I think you laid it out pretty well in the introduction. I have worked closely with Senator Ernst on a variety of issues on the committee, including battling a culture that for too long was too tolerant of sexual harassment of women military members. But when she raised legitimate questions and didn't just sign on board with the nomination, the amount of pressure that's been applied to her from the Trump team and you know, you focused on things like ads on tv, but this is also things like personal threats and the kinds of things that you unleash. Again, I'm shocked that her focus on the needs of people who have been on the receiving end of sexual assault or sexual harassment has faded. But I'm not surprised because the pressure applied to her has been so significant. It's a sad day to hear that. But, you know, I think at the hearing today, Democrats did a pretty good job of shining a spotlight on the character of this individual. And it is the, you know, my belief that we walked out of that hearing with many, many more questions than when we walked into the hearing.
- [11:55]
Alex Wagner
I want to play some of your line of questioning which was, you know, absolutely something that people paid attention to in terms of how tenacious you were compared to a lot of other people in that room. This is about Hegseth and his doling out of NDAs to alleged victims. Let's just take a listen to that exchange.
- [12:15]
Senator Tim Kaine
In finalizing divorces from your first and second wives, were there non disclosure agreements in connection with those divorces, Senator? Not that I'm aware of. But if there were, you would agree to release them from a confidentiality? Senator? That's not my responsibility. Did you ever engage in any acts of physical violence against any of your wives, Senator? Absolutely not.
- [12:36]
Alex Wagner
Can you elaborate, Senator, on what you were trying to get out there?
- [12:42]
Senator Tim Kaine
Well, a couple of things. I think the records show that Pete Hegseth has non disclosure agreements potentially with respect to his first two wives. I believe with at least one of the two veterans organizations that he worked for and sort of ran into the ground. He has a confidentiality agreement with the person that filed a sexual assault complaint against him that he ended up settling, making a cash payment to and entering into a confidentiality agreement. He had the nerve to say in the hearing today, hey, I'm an open book. And I pointed out, yeah, but you've got all kinds of people tied up with confidentiality agreements that can't share with us what they want to share with us. The other thing I was trying to get at was this. I need to be careful here because of some of what I know is either from classified or from committee only materials. But I have deep concerns about his abuse of women, his drunkenness on the job, his creation of toxic work culture, the circumstances surrounding his two divorces, including multiple allegations of infidelity. And I was trying to get him to just be candid with the American public. Should committing a sexual assault be disqualifying to be Secretary of Defense? Not a hard question. Should spousal abuse be disqualifying to be secretary of defense? Not a hard question. Should drunkenness on the job be disqualifying to be secretary of defense? Not a hard question. He wouldn't answer any of them. And that was very telling to me.
- [14:24]
Alex Wagner
I gotta ask, I mean, given what you're floating here, some of it's new, some of it there's been rumors of, some of it's been reported on. It just seems like this is someone who is deserving of a really thorough FBI background check, not just for Democrats, but also for Republicans and the people who are hiring him, the Trump administration. And yet Jane Mayer reports in the New Yorker, for example, the FBI's background investigation failed to interview Fox News personnel who described Hegsets to NBC News as smelling of alcohol on the job as recently as last fall. Instead, sources say that the bureau settled for an interview with a public relations official at Fox. Is that unprecedented?
- [15:04]
Senator Tim Kaine
No, it's outrageous, Alex. And I haven't even seen the FBI report. They won't give it to me. They gave it to the chairman of the committee, Senator Wicker, and the ranking member, Senator Reid. But in my discussions with Senator Reid, it's very plain that the FBI did not interview many people who had been directly identified in other documents that had been made available. They didn't bother to interview them. And that is just outrageous. You saw Pete Hegseth and the committee hearing today try to say all these claims were anonymous smears. These are not anonymous smears, the materials that I've read with the allegations about his behavior. Each behavior is connected directly to an individual who in many cases I believe was not interviewed by the Vetters. And the individuals named in the documents we've received even include his own mother who wrote him an extremely painful and blunt letter when he was undergoing his second divorce calling him a serial abuser of women. And the facts just line up one after the next. Whether it's what his colleagues, work colleagues in three organizations have said about him, what he has written or said about women in his own books and writings, in the circumstances of his two divorces, in the circumstances of the criminal allegation against him, which did not lead to a criminal conviction, but it did lead to a settlement and a payment and a non disclosure agreement. There is real investigation that needs to be done by someone here. But even on a paltry record that is largely notable for what it omits rather than what it includes, the facts are extremely troubling about the character of this individual.
- [16:52]
Alex Wagner
Senator Tim Kaine. You may not have the answers under oath, but you at least are asking the question. Sir, thank you so much for coming on the program tonight. Really appreciate it.
- [17:02]
Senator Tim Kaine
Good to be with you, Alex. Thanks.
- [17:04]
Alex Wagner
In advance of today's hearing, Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security advisor for President Obama, penned this opinion piece in the New York Times. Pete Hagseth is dangerous, but not for the reasons you think. Trump's choice of Mr. Hagseth is born out of right wing grievances that have been building for a long time over the failures of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The accusations of sexual assault and excessive drinking, which Mr. Hegseth has denied, also converged with other MAGA interests, including being unburdened by woke social mores. What kind of military emerges from this worldview? Presumably one that seeks to roll back the social and cultural changes of recent decades within its ranks, disrupting cohesion and devaluing diversity as a source of strength. A MAGA military. Joining me now is Ben Rhodes, of course, former deputy national security advisor under President Obama. Ben, I feel like this is such a central reading because we're obviously talking about one aspect of Pete Hegseth's nomination. But you put into context in a longer historical lens how Hegseth kind of the fruition of nearly 20 years of conservative grievance starting after 9 11. Can you put that into a finer point on that for people who haven't yet read this great op ed?
- [18:14]
Michelle Goldberg
Yeah. I mean, the quick version, Alex, right. Is if you're in the Pete Hegset.
- [18:18]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [18:19]
Michelle Goldberg
Right after 9 11, you are promised great victories in Iraq and Afghanistan and you were lied to and misled by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. And after the kind of outburst of jingoism around those wars on the right, you know, if you're a Fox News person, all you were told for the Bush years is we're on the precipice of some great victory. There was a lot of anger and resentment about how those wars turned out. But importantly, and this is not unusual, when superpowers fail to win wars, that anger didn't get channeled kind of at foreign policy. It got channeled at an enemy within. And if you take seriously, as I do, what Pete Hegseth said and written for many years, he is railing against liberals, he's railing against Islam, he's railing against, you know, quote unquote, woke culture. He's railing against women in combat, gays in the military. It's all these enemies within. And he shares that with Trump and he shares Trump's interest in having a secretary of defense who's totally Loyal. So I think that these allegations of personal misconduct, of course they're important, but I actually think that's a debate kind of that the right wing wants to have. You know, here are the Democrats, you know, trying to scold somebody over their personal conduct. I think we have to look at what he actually wants to do if he gets in this position. It's an immensely powerful position of Secretary of Defense. And I think what he wants to do is shaped by the same grievance mindset that Donald Trump has given voice to over the course of the last decade.
- [19:43]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, he's an expression of that and what he practically wants or could do. You also outline in the piece what happens if the military is asked to support the political interests of the president or participate in mass deportations or suppress political protests. The United States would struggle to return to an apolitical military serving a constitutional citizenry rather than an individual or ideology. I mean, there's some caveats in the piece, but that seems like a very real possibility. And reversing that would be equally difficult.
- [20:15]
Michelle Goldberg
Yeah, if you look at what Pegseth has said, he has advocated for the pardon of service members that were convicted of war crimes. He's essentially said that the US should not follow the laws of war. The Geneva Conventions were arrived at after the painful experiences of World War I and World War II. He said he doesn't think women should serve in combat. He said that gays shouldn't serve in the military. He's lamented so called diversity hires, in his words, that include, by the way, the current chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who's black, who he said should be fired. Right. He has embraced the big lie of Donald Trump. We know that Donald Trump wanted to use the military to quash protest after George Floyd in 2020. We know that there's a potential that some people around Trump have talked about using the US Military in the mass deportation plans that they have. These are very substantive questions about what the makeup and mission and nature of the United States military is, which is an apolitical institution that is supposed to serve all Americans and abide by the law. That, to me, is the real story of what is happening here with this nomination and seemingly imminent confirmation. And I think that's what we have to be focused on.
- [21:26]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, I think what needs to happen is the linkage between Pete Hagseth's past and what it could portend for his future. And both are very alarming. Ben Rhodes, an excellent op ed in the New York Times. Thank you for your time. Tonight, my friend.
- [21:41]
Michelle Goldberg
Thanks, Alex.
- [21:43]
Alex Wagner
We have much more to get to tonight, including Republicans playing politics with disaster aid as a Southern California California fires continue to rage. But first, how many of you have ever shown up to work drunk? That was a real question that a real United States Senator asked his colleagues today in defense of Donald Trump's pick to lead the Department of Defense. We're going to have more on the rise of MAGA masculinity coming up next.
- [22:14]
Rachel Maddow
Amen on MSNBC is now available as a podcast. Every Saturday and Sunday, host Amen Mohadin reads between the lines of the week's biggest stories, spotlighting the pressing issues facing our country, our world and those fighting to solve them.
- [22:29]
Senator Tim Kaine
We are tracking the fallout across the Middle East.
- [22:31]
Rachel Maddow
Tonight, Search for Eamon wherever you're listening and follow. And for ad free listening to this show and other MSNBC podcasts, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [22:54]
Alex Wagner
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [22:59]
Rachel Maddow
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- [23:48]
Mark Wayne Mullen
What if you showed up drunk to your job? How many senators have showed up drunk to vote at night? Have any of you guys asked them to step down and resign for their job? And don't tell me you haven't seen it, because I know you have. And then how many senators do you know have got a divorce before cheating on their wives? Did you ask them to step down? No. But it's for show. You guys make sure you make a big show and point out the hypocrisy because a man's made a mistake and you want to sit there and say that he's not qualified. Give me a joke.
- [24:27]
Alex Wagner
Give me a break. I mean, who among us hasn't arrived to vote drunk? Pete Hagg says confirmation is not just about Republicans handing Donald Trump his first nomination win. It is also about the resurgence of patriarchal political power Donald Trump ran on explicitly. And this highly retrograde traditionalism for Pete Hegseth is rooted in a growing right wing evangelical movement, one that seeks a theocratic state in which traditionalist Christian men lead the military and other essential government institutions. Joining me now is Michelle Goldberg, who's an opinion columnist for the New York Times. Michelle, thank you for being here this evening. Thank you. So first of all, Mark Wayne Mullen just, I guess everyone shows up to drunk on the Senate floor, which tells you a lot about.
- [25:11]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's astonishing that this isn't a matter of controversy. Right. That when Mark Kelly asked him over and over again, it wasn't, no, this is false. It was, these are smears and that. So sort of no one's denying this.
- [25:22]
Alex Wagner
And, and also, who doesn't cheat on their wives before asking for a divorce? I think he actually got the timeline inaccurate wrong in that. But that I think was the essence of it. And it goes to this notion that like Republicans sanction the bad behavior and now are openly, openly embracing it. And it has become sort of like a foundational value in this neo sort of trad family structure that they seem to be embracing.
- [25:47]
Dan Pfeiffer
Right. I think part of the promise of Donald Trump, and it wasn't even that much, it wasn't even that substextual, was the promise of impunity, was the promise that, you know, after the MeToo era, we're going to go back to a time where this behavior won't be punished, where it won't be an impediment to your career. And so, and what's interesting is that on the one hand, you know, Pete Hegseth is this avatar of Christian nationalism from this extremely right wing church. But I think the innovation here, the part that makes it neo, is that it's kind of all of the sanctimonious force of religious fundamentalism with none of the expected constraints.
- [26:25]
Alex Wagner
Yes, right. You know, show up drunk, have affairs, but also be the patriarch. I mean, I want to play a little bit of sound from this podcast that Pete Hegseth was on. He is on the podcast. It is being hosted by a member of Pete Hegseth's church. The, the church is called Pilgrim Hill. And this is kind of how they explain their theology.
- [26:46]
Senator Tim Kaine
And then the father is given the authority of the home. So in the family. So the father has a actual authority over his wife and children, and then the wife has authority over the children too. But ultimately it's a patriarchal vision. And then the state, God has given authority. Primarily, the tool that God has given the state is the sword. We see this in Romans 13. They are to execute justice, to protect the righteous from the wicked.
- [27:14]
Alex Wagner
So two things are interesting. First of all, the patriarchy is outlined explicitly, but also it's the embedded sort of violence or punitive streak to this new form of sort of traditional Christianity, neo traditional Christianity, that strikes me as almost a playbook for people like Pete Hegseth. Right. If they come at you and they say you're unqualified, hit them back with your proverbial sword. Fight them back.
- [27:39]
Dan Pfeiffer
I'm just saying. I mean, I've been writing about Christian nationalism for a long time. This rhetoric is super familiar. It's kind of almost standard. I think what's different is that the movement that he's part of used to be at least the very explicit theocratic vision used to maybe be more on the fringes of the conservative movement. Now it's at the dead center of the Republican Party. But and it's also interesting the way, like as you said, every time Pete Hegseth had to answer for the many, many sins, frankly, you know, mistakes, catastrophes, debacles that he's been involved in, he would talk about being saved by Jesus Christ. Right. But at no point did he talk about that instilling any sort of new either figurative or literal sobriety.
- [28:27]
Alex Wagner
Right, right. His alleged controversies are met with just a fierce zealotry, the proclamation of the, you know, Jesus Christ being his lessons being visited upon him, but no sort of moral re examination, a reexamination of his own morals. There are a lot of comparisons being drawn to the sort of playbook that's being run with Pete Hegseth and that of Brett Kavanaugh, not just in terms of the outside conservative money that's flooded this zone, but just in terms of. Well, I'd ask you what you see as the sort of the thread that ties these two particular men together.
- [29:02]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, I wouldn't compare these two because, I mean, you know, Brett Kavanaugh, although I wish he hadn't been confirmed he was a plausible nominee, he wasn't a preposterous nominee. I mean, any. And he wasn't. I don't think that Republicans in their heart of hearts saw Brett Kavanaugh as a joke, that they were sort of being forced to condone as a test of loyalty, whereas this is just such a farce. But I think what you see is that what happened to Christine Bozzi Ford was a very powerful demonstration for anyone else who would come forward. And so when you think about the Republican organizer who filed this police report accusing Pete Hegseth of sexual assault, you know, there is a, I would assume that she looks at what's happened to women like Christine Buzzy Ford and thinks, no, thank you. And so there's a reason I would assume that she has not come forward.
- [29:52]
Alex Wagner
Well, and I would say that same pressure campaign in a different way is being exerted upon the Republicans who might stand in line and potentially talk to that victim. You know, it is worth noting that the drivers behind this kind of neo traditionalist Christianity that people like Pete Hegseth are a part of is the drivers are really interesting and they are cultural. The USA Today reports that the founder of Pete Hegseth's church, Pilgrim Hill, said that one of the main drivers for enrollment in his church was the Black Lives Matter protests, which Pottinger characterized as a huge satanic tactic to corrupt the gospel. He also mentioned that COVID 19 and the related lockdowns were also part of it. And I wonder, you know, sort of what that tells you about the political aspirations or the political implications of this kind of Christianity being embraced by so many people who are at the top echelons of the Trump administration.
- [30:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, I mean, I think that there is, there's been, there's a kind of broader cultural turn towards the manosphere among at least a lot of powerful men. You know, you see Mark Zuckerberg talking about how they need to bring more masculine energy to corporate America. There's just this unbelievable backlash to the efflorescence of feminist activism that we saw during Trump's first term. And what this form of Christian nationalism does is it gives it a kind of theological scaffolding.
- [31:24]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, it does, absolutely. To battle against literally any socio cultural progress or inclusivity that might be a hallmark of the 21st century. Here we go. Buckle up. Michelle Goldberg, Inauguration Day is on Monday. It's great to see you. Thank you for your time tonight. Still to come this evening, even as deadly wildfires continue to rage through Southern California, Republicans are looking for ways to capitalize on tragedy politically. We'll have more on that next.
- [31:59]
Rachel Maddow
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.
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Alex Wagner
Let's get up to speed.
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Alison Barber
We've got some breaking news right now.
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Rachel Maddow
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [32:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.
- [32:14]
Rachel Maddow
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [32:29]
Mark Wayne Mullen
This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? We're sharing the first chapter of my new book, the Siren's How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. To live at this moment in the world, both online and off, is to find oneself endlessly wriggling on the mast, fighting for control over her very being against the ceaseless siren calls of the people and devices and corporations and malevolent actors trying to trap it. That's this Week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever.
- [32:58]
Michelle Goldberg
You'Re listening right now and follow.
- [33:09]
Alex Wagner
Los Angeles is now entering its second week of fighting the largest fires the city has ever seen. The fires have already collectively burned an area more than two and a half times the size of Manhattan, displacing more than 100,000 people and killing at least 25. So while those fires are still actively burning, while authorities are literally still searching burned out houses for the dead, how is the Republican leader of the House, Mike Johnson, how is he responding? He's threatening to hold hostage federal disaster aid.
- [33:39]
Mark Wayne Mullen
I think there should probably be conditions on that aid. That's my personal view.
- [33:43]
Alex Wagner
We'll see what the consensus is.
- [33:44]
Ben Rhodes
I haven't had a chance to socialize.
- [33:46]
Mark Wayne Mullen
That with any of the members over the weekend because we've all been very busy, but it'll be part of the discussion for sure.
- [33:51]
Alex Wagner
That was the speaker of the House saying that federal aid for these wildfires in California should have conditions. Mind you, Speaker Johnson represents the disaster prone state of Louisiana. And for the last year we have data 2022 Louisiana received $34 billion more from the federal government than the state paid the federal government. In that same year, California paid $83 billion more to the federal government than the state got in return. 2022 isn't an anomaly. California is the fifth biggest economy in the world. On its own, the state literally subsidizes the rest of this country year after year. But because California is a blue state, Republicans want it to have California bend to the will of the GOP in order to get disaster relief.
- [34:43]
Alison Barber
Do you expect, though, that Congress and Republicans will still help these Americans in need, even if they don't like their local politics in the party?
- [34:54]
Senator Tim Kaine
I expect that there will be strings attached to money that is ultimately approved.
- [34:58]
Mark Wayne Mullen
We will certainly help those thousands of homes and families who have been devastated. But we also expect you to change bad behavior.
- [35:05]
Senator Tim Kaine
They don't deserve anything, to be honest with you, unless they show us they're.
- [35:08]
Alex Wagner
Going to make some changes. Not to belabor the point here, but the Republicans you just heard there were Senator John Barrasso of Wyoming, Representative Zach Nunn of Iowa, and Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama, all representatives of red states that receive far more money from the federal government than they give the federal government, while again, the blue state of California literally subsidizes their existence. Just last month, Congress allocated $100 billion in disaster relief to help the six states impacted by Hurricanes Helene and Milton. All but one of those states is led by a Republican governor. And that aid did not have conditions. Apparently, the moral calculus was very clear. But now that the blue state of California needs help, well, Republicans think disaster relief should be a bargaining chip. Dan Pfeiffer, former White House senior adviser to President Barack Obama and co host of Pod Save America, joins me to discuss how Democrats should respond to this. Coming up Next.
- [36:13]
Ben Rhodes
Multiple times Mr. Trump has threatened to withhold aid for California wildfires, both as president and now again as president elect. Are you worried that he might actually do that?
- [36:21]
Senator Tim Kaine
I mean, he's done it Utah, he's done it in Michigan, did it Puerto Rico, he did it to California back before I was even governor in 2018, until he found out folks in Orange county voted for him and then he decided to give the money.
- [36:33]
Alex Wagner
That was California Governor Gavin Newsom speaking about his fears that as of next week's next week, his state's recovery will be in the hands of President Elect Donald Trump. House Speaker Mike Johnson and even some Republican members of California's own congressional delegation have signaled that they may demand conditions before sending any more relief money to California, conditions that at least according to Speaker Johnson, reportedly may include tying recovery money to one of Donald Trump's key political demands, raising the debt ceiling. Joining me now is Dan Pfeiffer, former White House senior advisor to President Obama and co host of Pod Save America. Dan, thank you for being here. I have a lot of strategy questions to ask you because, I mean, first, what's the right, what is the right response from Governor Newsom on down? I mean, when Republicans say you can't have money to rebuild your burned down city and help people find homes again unless you raise the debt ceiling, should they play ball?
- [37:32]
Ben Rhodes
Absolutely not. Look, let's start with how you respond to this and that begins with pointing out very clearly, very forthrightly, that what the Republicans are doing is they're playing politics with people's lives.
- [37:42]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [37:43]
Ben Rhodes
California is a blue state, but there are 6 million people in the state who voted for Donald Trump. Those are the people they are denying aid to as well. And so we should call that out. We should point out that every other time, strings have not been put on aid for states, because that is what we do in this country, because the fires may be in California, but the impact of that is felt across the country, just like with hurricanes in North Carolina and hurricanes in Florida. So making that, we just have to call out what they're doing here, and then you get to the specific point of the debt ceiling.
- [38:12]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [38:12]
Ben Rhodes
That is an absurd idea. I'm not sure that idea is going to fly. I don't know that the Freedom Caucus is going to fall for that. I don't think the Senate's going to fall for that. But we should call that out again. Right? This is about people's lives. People need help now. And trying to use the lives and livelihoods of people suffering from one of the worst wildfires in this country's history to solve a political problem for Donald Trump is ridiculous. But we have to be vocal about that fact.
- [38:35]
Alex Wagner
I'm all, I'm with you. I mean, it's past this prologue. Trump was convinced to release disaster aid when his aides pointed out, like, oh, I. Orange county was affected and they voted for you, but you now have members, as Politico is reporting of California's Republican congressional delegation saying, yeah, no, you should tie disaster relief to a debt ceiling raise or you should establish preconditions before you release the funds. I mean, it seems like Trump's and his allies, the misinformation they've been spinning about Democratic mismanagement of the state has caused even Republicans in the state to believe the lies enough so that they're willing to sort of sacrifice the immediate release of relief aid, I guess. I wonder how much you think misinformation is giving Republicans a leg to stand on here. The suggestion that Governor Newsom didn't, like, you know, let enough water into the state because he was protecting smelt Roe or whatever, all of which Governor Newsom has set up a website to debunk. But, like, how critical is that as a kind of foundational aspect to the denial of aid?
- [39:38]
Ben Rhodes
Well, misinformation is a huge problem. It's one that, as Mark Zuckerberg made clear the other day, it's going to get Much worse as time goes on here. I think what it, what is causing problems with these Republican members of Congress is as much as their attempt to be as loyal to Donald Trump as humanly possible, to be as obsequious that Donald Trump is humanly possible as it is misinformation.
- [39:57]
Senator Tim Kaine
Because what.
- [39:58]
Ben Rhodes
So there are two issues here. There are strings on the aid and then there's a debt ceiling. Let's put the debt ceiling aside for one second. What strings are they talking about? None of these people have mentioned them. They just keep saying strings. What is it they actually want? What do they think is going to help here? What is going to solve or what is the problem they are trying to solve? We should push back on that and call that out. What is it? What are they actually talking about? Because there are answers to this, right? The smelt issue is an absurd issue. The water from north, from Northern California doesn't go to Southern California. It's not where the water comes from, the reservoirs of all their answers to all these things. But we have to push the Republicans, specifically the Republican members of Congress from California, on what it is they're actually talking about here. So they're not just vomiting up talking points in the hope of getting invited to a White House reception in two weeks.
- [40:42]
Alex Wagner
No comment on that, the vomit or the reception. But I wonder what you think the road ahead looks like for blue state governors independent of, you know, for this particular disaster in California, as Trump tries to use the federal government to tries to weaponize the federal government to enact his political agenda. You know, if you're a blue state governor and Trump wants to conduct federal mass deportation or deportation workplace raids in your state, and you want to stand against it, but you also need help from the federal government or at least cooperation on urgent matters, whether it's disaster aid or something like that. You know, is there a calibration? Is there a choreography here? Can you do both? Can you both be an adversary to Trump and serve your state in a time of need? Do you think such a thing is possible, knowing what you know about Donald Trump?
- [41:27]
Ben Rhodes
It's a tricky balancing act. And Governor Newsom's in a very challenging position here. He has been aggressive about pushing back on some of the misinformation for calling out, as in the clip you played, played the previous time. Donald Trump has played politics with disaster aid, but he also has Trump coming to a state next week. And he knows that unlike in any previous presidency other than Trump's previous one, politics are going to play a role here. And you have to sort of walk that fine line. Ultimately, I think Democrats cannot, we cannot, you know, avoid calling out Trump for, for what he is doing when it's wrong.
- [41:58]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [41:59]
Ben Rhodes
You're gonna have to, you have to do your politics. We saw a lot of people doing this during COVID Unfortunately, it's about whether you're going to get PPE or masks or whatever else from the federal government when Trump was president. But you're going to have to walk a fine line. One thing I think Democratic governors can do here, I think Newsom has done a pretty good job of this is in times of crisis, when there is misinformation flying at you at all times, the way to respond to that is to over communicate, to be out all the time, as much press as you possibly can, to grab every single microphone and bullhorn you can find and shout out the truth. It's not always going to work. They're going to be people who are, have motivated reasoning to believe what they want to believe. You have members of Congress who will say what will get them in good favor with Trump, but be out there all the time. Newsom's done a very good job of that. I think some other California officials, particularly down in la, have done a less good job of that. But that is the model for how you communicate, especially when you have a President United States who is using his microphone or an incoming President United States to push that very same misinformation.
- [42:56]
Alex Wagner
Everything everywhere, all at once. That's the new playbook, both sides of the aisle. Dan Pfeiffer, thank you for joining me tonight, my friend. Appreciate you.
- [43:04]
Ben Rhodes
Thank you.
- [43:05]
Alex Wagner
Still to come this evening, a view of the vast devastation left behind by wildfires in Los Angeles. NBC correspondent Ellison Barber joins me to discuss what she saw and what is expected next. That's coming up. Parts of Southern California are bracing for another critical fire warning tonight. And joining me now from Pasadena near the Eaton fire, which has been burning for 77 days and is currently 35% contained, is NBC News correspondent Alison Barber. Alison, what can you tell us about the expectations for tonight?
- [43:41]
Alison Barber
Hey, Alex. Yes. So we moved and we're actually in an area, we're in Malibu. And it's just because this is where we got off of a helicopter that we flew on with Cal Fire looking at some of the damage. But we've spent most of our time since we've been here reporting this team in Altadena near the Eaton fire. I mean, the expectation heading into tonight is still the concern about those high winds right there. Was they weren't as high as expected today and that is good. But fire officials have been very clear weather forecasters that threat is not over. The high risk warnings for wind continues until tomorrow. The fire officials, they have said they have pre positioned fire engines and patrol all across the L A region, particularly in unimpacted high risk fire areas because the concern is the possibility still for new fires. But they say they are ready for them and they have pre positioned to be in a position to be able to respond. But when you look at the toll here, and that's what we saw today when we were flying with Cal Fire of how hard this community has been hit, we talk so much in numbers, right? 12,000. Over 12,000 structures have been destroyed, mostly in the Eaton and Palisades fire and structure. Sounds so bland, but when you go and look in these communities, when you fly above them, you are reminded that we are talking about homes, we are talking about businesses, we are talking about familiar sites that have been integral parts of these communities for years, decades, generations even now entirely gone. And for so many people, Alex, they're trying to get through tonight, worried about what could happen in other parts of Los Angeles and the Los Angeles county region and also trying to just process how they pick up their lives because they have nothing left here, Alex, just.
- [45:26]
Alex Wagner
A staggering amount of destruction. That video footage from the helicopter gives you a sense of those wind gusts. NBC News correspondent Allison Barber doing some real essential reporting on the ground. Thank you for hanging late tonight. I appreciate it. That is our show for tonight.
- [45:39]
Rachel Maddow
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