Hold the Line

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner: Episode Summary – "Hold the Line"

Release Date: March 6, 2025
Host: Alex Wagner, MSNBC

---

Introduction and Context

In the inaugural episode of "Trumpland with Alex Wagner," Alex Wagner delves into the dynamics of Donald Trump's second term, focusing on the first 100 days of his administration. Stepping away from her anchor role, Wagner brings listeners to the forefront of resistance against Trump's policies by engaging with those directly impacted and the key figures leading the opposition.

---

The Phoenix Town Hall Event

[01:06]
Wagner opens the episode from Phoenix, Arizona, where a significant town hall event is underway. Organized by a coalition of Democratic state attorneys general, the gathering marks the public face of the Democratic resistance against Trump’s agenda. The event aims to channel public frustration and mobilize collective action against the administration's policies.

[02:33]
Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays hosts the town hall, addressing critical issues such as federal workforce cuts and funding freezes orchestrated by Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency (Doge). Mays is joined by fellow AGs Raul Torres (New Mexico), Dan Rayfield (Oregon), and Keith Ellison (Minnesota), reinforcing the united front of the Democratic legal resistance.

---

Voices from the Frontlines

Citizens’ Impact

[03:05]
Wagner speaks with a family physician in Phoenix affected by impending Medicaid cuts. Over 2 million Arizonans rely on Medicaid, and federal budget cuts threaten coverage for 550,000, including 750,000 children. The physician underscores the personal toll of administrative chaos on vulnerable populations.

[04:23]
Keith Ellison shares a poignant personal story:

“I will lose my job. Until then. As a follower of a three-year-old, this isn't just about my career. It's about my child's well-being.” [04:23]

Ellison details the struggle to afford preschool for his child, highlighting the broader consequences of federal funding cuts on families and education.

Attorneys General's Response

[05:55]
Ellison emphasizes the evidence-based nature of their resistance:

“This isn't subjective. This is evidence.” [05:55]

He highlights the administration's detrimental impact on veteran services and the reduction of federal agency capabilities, stressing the legal and moral imperative to act.

[07:16]
Letitia James, New York's AG, delivers a rallying cry:

“Hold the line.” [07:16]

James underscores the commitment of AGs to stand against Trump’s unchecked political power, drawing strength from their roles as protectors of constitutional rights.

---

Collaborative Efforts Among Attorneys General

[12:22]
Ellison discusses the collaborative spirit among the AGs:

“We’re better collectively than we are individually.” [12:22]

Wagner explores how these AGs, despite their leadership roles, have set aside individual egos to form a cohesive network reminiscent of the Avengers, focusing on legal battles rather than physical confrontations.

[14:32]
Ellison acknowledges the strain on their offices:

“It's been a strain. Not all of my 500 lawyers are working on this litigation.” [14:32]

He praises his dedicated team for their resilience and dedication to safeguarding the Constitution and public services despite overwhelming workloads.

---

Landmark Legal Battles

Birthright Citizenship

[17:34]
Attorney General William Tong elaborates on the fight against Trump’s executive order targeting birthright citizenship:

“It is a fact of the 14th Amendment that the plain language... you're born on American soil, you're an American.” [17:34]

Tong argues that revoking birthright citizenship undermines foundational constitutional principles, making the issue both a professional and personal battle for him.

[20:13]
Tong emphasizes faith in the judicial system:

“We have to be confident, we have to believe in the system.” [20:13]

He stresses the importance of trusting the courts to act as a bulwark against unconstitutional executive actions.

Combating Elon Musk’s Doge

[22:31]
Letitia James addresses lawsuits against Elon Musk and Doge:

“I do not want an unelected individual to have access to the sensitive data of Americans.” [22:31]

James criticizes the administration’s reliance on Musk’s Doge, highlighting concerns over data privacy and the concentration of power in unelected hands.

[24:18]
James reflects on her ongoing legal battles:

“I've taken on bullies and... Donald Trump is no different.” [24:18]

She conveys a steadfast commitment to defending democratic values and protecting vulnerable populations from administrative overreach.

---

Emotional and Psychological Toll

[15:56]
Ellison shares his emotional state:

“I'd be lying to say that I'm not fearful and disturbed...” [15:56]

Despite fear, Ellison remains hopeful, motivated by the solidarity and success of past litigation against Trump’s previous administration.

[16:19]
Ellison discusses the necessity of proactive resistance over passive hope, rejecting the notion of “doing nothing” in the face of unconstitutional actions:

“I can't just watch while unconstitutional and unlawful actions are taking place.” [16:19]

This determination fuels the AGs’ relentless legal battles.

---

Case Studies: Birthright Citizenship and Doge’s Actions

Birthright Citizenship:
Attorney General William Tong argues that Trump's attempt to revoke birthright citizenship is unconstitutional, directly violating the 14th Amendment. He draws historical parallels to the amendment’s original intent post-Civil War to ensure citizenship regardless of parentage.

Doge’s Federal Workforce Cuts:
Chris Hayes highlights the impact of Doge’s mass federal layoffs, particularly in Arizona, where over 34,000 federal workers are affected. These cuts disrupt essential programs and services, leading to public protests as seen in Tucson.

---

Conclusion and Future Outlook

[34:52]
Chris Hayes encapsulates the AGs’ resolve:

“We have a duty to fulfill to the nation... every once in a generation, Americans are called on to sacrifice and to fight for our country.” [34:52]

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the AGs’ commitment to defending the Constitution and protecting citizens from administrative overreach. Wagner emphasizes the unity and strategic coordination among the AGs as they continue their legal battles to hold the Trump administration accountable.

---

Notable Quotes

• Keith Ellison:

  “This isn't subjective. This is evidence.” [05:55]

• Letitia James:

  “Hold the line.” [07:16]

• William Tong:

  “It is a fact of the 14th Amendment that the plain language... you're born on American soil, you're an American.” [17:34]

• Chris Hayes:

  “We have a duty to fulfill to the nation... every once in a generation, Americans are called on to sacrifice and to fight for our country.” [34:52]

---

Production Credits

Produced by Max Jacobs, Julia D'Angelo, and Kay Guerrero. Associate Producer: Jamiris Perez. Crew includes Bill Hennessy (Audio), Catherine McNamara and Patrick Morrissey (Camera). Audio Engineers: Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Executive Producers: Matthew Alexander and Aisha Turner.

---

Trumpland with Alex Wagner offers a compelling, in-depth look at the organized legal resistance against Donald Trump's administration, highlighting the strategic and emotional efforts of Democratic state attorneys general as they navigate unprecedented political challenges.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts. The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Chris Hayes]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Alex Wagner]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Alex Wagner]

So we just landed in Phoenix, where tonight there's going to be this town hall that's being organized by several state attorneys general across the country. Not all the attorneys general who are involved in this kind of avengers resistance group are going to be here, but it's kind of like a kickoff for what's going to be a series of these events. And really, it feels kind of like this is the beginning of the public facing side of the Democratic attempts to stop the Trump agenda. Right. A lot of it has been happening behind closed doors, in lawsuits, in courtrooms, and now you're seeing like the first concerted public effort to channel the energy, the rage, the frustration, the dismay that I think a lot of normal American citizens are feeling as Trump has run roughshod over the federal government. Trump and Elon Musk. So here we are in Phoenix, Arizona, baby. It's 5:30pm Almost sunset in the desert. I'm just outside of Central High School, a massive building just north of downtown. The school has its own political history. John McCain campaigned here when he was running against Barack Obama in 2008. Several years later, President Obama spoke here as well. And that kind of political wait is probably what the hosts of this event are going for.

[Chris Hayes]

Good evening, Arizona.

[Alex Wagner]

Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays is the host of the first national town hall for this group of state attorneys general. All of them are Democrats. The topic of tonight's event is cuts to the federal workforce and funding freezes, led in large part by Elon Musk and Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency.

[Chris Hayes]

The stakes for many people in this room are deeply personal. This is not just a policy debate. It is their livelihood, their Families and their futures.

[Alex Wagner]

Mays is joined by three other AGs, New Mexico's Raul Torres, Oregon's Dan Rayfield, and Minnesota's Keith Ellison. We believe the public doesn't like a.

[Keith Ellison]

Lot of things that have been happening from Washington recently.

[Alex Wagner]

And we believe that if you have a chance to tell your truth, to.

[Rachel Maddow]

Listen to your neighbors, you just might.

[Keith Ellison]

Get up there on that microphone and.

[Alex Wagner]

Tell your own story. And while these AGs give brief remarks to the crowd, the point of this whole town hall was not to hear from the ags, but for the ags to hear from the public. I'm a family physician here in Phoenix, Arizona and I came to talk about impending Medicaid cuts. I'm here for my patients tonight. Currently, over 2 million Arizonans are covered by Medicaid, including over 750,000 kids aged 0 to 17. The federal budget cuts could take coverage from 550,000 of the most vulnerable Arizonans. There were a lot of people with very different stories to tell and different concerns to share about how the chaos inside the federal government is being felt all the way across the country in the state of Arizona in June, I.

[Keith Ellison]

Will lose my job.

[Alex Wagner]

I am fortunate that the district Osborne School district will continue to honor my contract.

[Keith Ellison]

Until then. As a follower of a three year old, this isn't just about my career. It's about my child's well being.

[Alex Wagner]

Right now I'm struggling to keep up.

[Keith Ellison]

With the $800 a month tuition for a preschool. Without my job, I don't know how I will afford to keep her in preschool. I have dedicated my career to education. That is 25 years of my life.

[Alex Wagner]

I want to speak for many who are at risk because they supported the youth and Afghanistan. SIV is a special immigrant visa for people who serve with U.S. army and the State Department overseas. Cutting federal fund tourist settlement agencies hurts SIV and refugees living in our communities. These individuals put their lives in line for our mission and now we must honor the promise we made to them. The organizers claim there were over 100 people signed up to speak at the town hall. Not surprisingly, only a fraction of them got a chance to do. But of those who did speak, the group that might have been most represented was veterans. For those who don't know, OFCCP is the only federal agency that takes complaints of discrimination from veterans. And this is reducing our agency down to nothing. So while my time is limited, I just wanted to say this. This isn't subjective. This is evidence.

[William Tong]

This is evidence.

[Alex Wagner]

In less than two months, this administration has proved itself to be the most anti veteran administration ever. This isn't just a political debate. People came to Central High School on a Wednesday night because they were mad and confused and very, very worried. Hundreds of people whose lives have been upended by the decisions made by the Trump administration. And this evening they were asking the attorneys general on stage to fight back.

[Keith Ellison]

We have filed a bunch of lawsuits. Birthright citizenship, we froze the freeze.

[Alex Wagner]

We have filed the lawsuits that we haven't lost yet, folks. And that's the thing. These attorneys general might be the best and most effective resistance to the Trump agenda. They aren't part of the federal government. They're rooted in the states. And now they're traveling across the country listening to citizens and making a case in court on their behalf. Tonight in Phoenix, people seem energized about someone finally having their backs. We are all going to suffer from the consequences of these actions. This will affect us all.

[Letitia James]

So as the proud granddaughter of World War II veteran and the proud daughter of a Vietnam veteran, I will say this. Hold the line.

[Alex Wagner]

On this episode of Trump Land with Alex Wagner, we talk to the chief law enforcement officers who are holding the line against President Trump and unchecked political power.

[Letitia James]

Listen, I believe he's poked the bear and I believe that more and more Americans will respond to this crisis.

[Alex Wagner]

And we hear what strategies they think could provide a new kind of resistance.

[Keith Ellison]

If federal employees are being laid off, they're not just laying off Democrats, they're laid off everybody. There's a ripple effect to all of it and that's what we need to lift our voices about and speak about.

[Rachel Maddow]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime anywhere.

[Chris Hayes]

Let's get up to speed. We've got some breaking news right now.

[Rachel Maddow]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Alex Wagner]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[Rachel Maddow]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app get all of Rachel Maddow's original chart topping podcast series in one place with Rachel Maddow Presents Binge the Entire Bagman series, seasons one and two of Ultra, and every episode of Deja Muse along with all of Rachel Maddow's new podcasts to come. These are untold stories of our country's past that could help us understand the state of our country today. Search for Rachel Maddow Presents and follow to listen now for ad free. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Alex Wagner]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening?

[Letitia James]

Author and journalist Ellie Reeve on the.

[Rachel Maddow]

Darkest corners of the Internet.

[Alex Wagner]

I did all this work analyzing where all this stuff comes from, everything they believe, their tactics, the tactics that worked, the tactics that failed, what worked to bring the alt right down. And nevertheless, their ideas and tactics and vibes and aesthetics have become the mainstream of like at least 50% of the American culture. This week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow Nearly two months into the new Trump administration, one of the only places where Donald Trump's radical agenda has been stalled is in the courts. And that's due in part to a group of Democratic state attorneys general who have joined forces to construct a fortified defense around the U.S. constitution. And it appears to be working. President Trump's agenda hitting some legal roadblocks.

[Chris Hayes]

Multiple judges are stepping in to block.

[Alex Wagner]

Some of the administration's efforts.

[Chris Hayes]

The judge is giving the White house.

[Alex Wagner]

Less than two days to release billions of dollars in U.S. foreign aid.

[Rachel Maddow]

President Trump's sweeping spending freeze is on hold after a federal judge temporarily blocked the president's order to pause trillions of.

[Chris Hayes]

Dollars in federal grants and loans. A judge in Seattle today saying Trump.

[Alex Wagner]

Cannot ignore the Constitution when it comes to birthright citizenship. The president has overstepped his authority by a mile. As of right now, there are at least eight lawsuits moving through the federal courts that have been collectively filed to varying degrees by nearly two dozen state attorneys general from Democratically led states. And it seems they're just getting started because these cases didn't just appear out of nowhere. They're the product of months of coordination and preparation. Last week, Politico published a story about these 23 Democratic state AGs who have been meeting in private every single day for nearly four months on Microsoft Teams. And if you've ever used Microsoft Teams, you understand they must be committed. At any rate, the ags use these calls to plan a course of action, sharing updates with one another on how their cases are moving through the courts while simultaneously sorting through the latest moves by the Trump administration and determining what matters are most urgent and need to be challenged. It's sort of like the Avengers, except without the skin tight bodysuits or the choreographed fight sequences. The stakes, though, might be just as high. I spoke to some of the attorneys general who are part of this group, including Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raul, who's joined several multi state lawsuits against the Trump administration, including One seeking to release millions of dollars in FEMA GR that are meant to bolster state level preparedness for emergencies ranging from things like wildfires and floods to terrorist attacks and cybersecurity threats. Thank you for doing this.

[Keith Ellison]

My pleasure.

[Alex Wagner]

I've been talking to a number of the AGs about the work you guys are doing collectively and collaboratively. You were quoted, I think, saying that all the AGs are used to being in charge, but people have put their egos aside. Can you just talk to me about how do you guys all work together, you know, collectively?

[Keith Ellison]

Yeah. I mean, so most of us are politically elected. So between that and being a chief executive of your office, for instance, I have, you know, close to a thousand employees, 500 lawyers, so I'm used to being in charge. But the great thing about us in this AG community is that this is not new. Working together, we've done a lot of relationship building over time. And based on that and based on having a history, some of us are newer than others. A few ags just started their term, but even for them, we got to start knowing them when they were candidates. And that's kind of cool. Cause you know, when it gets into like an intense time, and these have been intense times with very weighty matters, having the relationships, being able to crack a joke here and there while we're discussing, you know, something as weighty as all of these funds being frozen or whether it's birthright citizenship or whether it's cutting short funds for research facilities, I can go on and on. Each and every one of these things are weighty matters that I know for me, it wakes me up at 2 o'clock in the morning sometimes. But it's important for us to be able to have a temperament with one another that, you know, allows us to just laugh things off. You know, there's going to be debate, there's going to be debate about approaches, but we're better collectively than we are individually.

[Alex Wagner]

So it's like 99% legal Avengers, 1% therapy session.

[Keith Ellison]

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's definitely some of that. And you know, one person has to know to bump the brakes when somebody else might have reason to be a little bit more sensitive about one issue versus another. And yeah, but you know, we're people who like each other. Yeah, that's important.

[Alex Wagner]

How is your staff dealing with this?

[Keith Ellison]

It's been a strain. It's certainly been a strain. You know, not all of my 500 lawyers are working on this litigation dealing with some of the executive orders and some of the other actions. But for those who have, they also have other responsibilities. Right. There are other ongoing things that pre existed these actions that I still had to lean on these same lawyers.

[Alex Wagner]

Right.

[Keith Ellison]

To do that work. So there's been burning the midnight oil when we have to really turn something around. However, I've got great lawyers that come to work for a fraction of what they would make in the private sector. These are people who are here because of the subject matter. So while this is a disturbing time, this is also rewarding for them to be on the front lines doing this work to try to protect our republic, to try to protect our Constitution as we've known it, and try to protect workers and the services that people rely on government to provide. And so you don't go home feeling like, oh, what am I doing with my life? Yeah, right.

[Alex Wagner]

Clarity of purpose. Real clarity of purpose.

[Keith Ellison]

That's right.

[Alex Wagner]

What's your level of optimism about the next four years of American life? I mean, you're on the front lines here trying to protect and safeguard basic tenets of our democracy. How optimistic, how bullish are you on your prospects?

[Keith Ellison]

Well, I'd be lying to say that I'm not fearful and disturbed, and that, of course, motivates me. I'm hopeful because I get to be in this room doing this work with my colleagues. There's something that James Carville said recently that I didn't completely agree with, but I understand it.

[Alex Wagner]

Isn't that the nature of a James Carville quote is like, you can't agree with it completely, but there's a nugget of something there.

[Keith Ellison]

Yeah. So he, in essence said, the best thing we can do is do nothing because they're being so reckless, they're just gonna harm everybody, including people who supported him. And I think he's right about the harms.

[Chris Hayes]

Right.

[Keith Ellison]

But I, as a state attorney general, can't just watch while unconstitutional and unlawful actions are taking place. I'd be abandoning my responsibility if I just sat back and said, well, I'm just gonna let it happen because the backlash is going to fix it. I have to step up and challenge these. And the hope that I have is that we know our success rate of the past. In the suits that we filed before, during Trump 1.0, we were successful in 80% of them.

[Alex Wagner]

Good batting average.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Keith Ellison]

That makes huge difference in people's lives.

[Alex Wagner]

I also spoke with Connecticut's Attorney General, William Tong, who, in addition to the other parts of his job, has been working to fight against Trump's efforts to revoke birthright citizenship as well, as Trump's freeze on federal funding and Elon Musk's apparently unconstitutional power grab. Mr. Attorney General, thank you for doing this.

[William Tong]

Alex. Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm in the car, and you're in the car. So this is, like, most mobile conversation ever.

[William Tong]

I'm on i95.

[Alex Wagner]

Oof.

[William Tong]

So I'm coming from Norwich, Connecticut, going home to Stanford, Connecticut.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. You're a busy man, which goes without saying, but are you driving?

[William Tong]

I'm at least driving.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm a passenger. I'm a passenger.

[William Tong]

Okay, good.

[Alex Wagner]

We practice safe interview techniques here. Very good on SNPC podcast. So let's talk a little bit about the specifics, because I know that you're part of a lawsuit against the president's example executive order aimed at ending birthright citizenship. And the theory there is that that runs afoul of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. And I think it's Section 1401 of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Can you unpack for me a little bit about how you got involved in that fight? It sort of sounds like from your family history that this is not just a professional fight for you, but a personal one.

[William Tong]

It is a fact of the 14th Amendment that the plain language of a bedrock cornerstone of the United States Constitution means what it says. You're born on American soil, you're an American. And that was established after the Civil War in response to essentially, slavery and the dred stock decision and the idea that slaves were not only not citizens, but not people. So we passed and ratified the 14th amendment as a country to establish that not just slaves, but all of us who are born on American soil are Americans. That principle was affirmed by the Supreme Court in a case about a Chinese American. Wong, Kim Ark and Alex, I would say this. Can you imagine if another president said, you know what? Notwithstanding what the Second Amendment says, no Americans can possess firearms.

[Alex Wagner]

Right.

[William Tong]

People would lose their minds and take to the streets. That is how unconstitutional this is. But for me, without birthright citizenship, you and I are not having this conversation. I am an American by right of my birth on American soil. I don't derive my citizenship. My parents, they were both immigrants when I was born. Dad had a complicated immigration story, like many people, and so this is very personal.

[Alex Wagner]

I know, for example, in the birthright citizenship case, you guys filed separate lawsuits in Massachusetts and Washington State. And I wonder if you could talk about the logic of that and your confidence that the judicial branch will continue to act as a bulwark against the worst impulses of the Trump administration.

[William Tong]

So we have to be confident, we have to believe in the system. We have to trust the system, or we are lost. And so you and I could spend an hour, the next 10 hours going into some dark, very dark places and rabbit holes. What if this happens? What if that happens? I've said many times, people, don't go there. Don't go to. What happens if the Alabama National Guard is ordered to go to Connecticut? Don't go there, because those are dark places in which we will be unrecognizable as a people and as a nation. We've been successful so far, but, you know, it's going to get harder. I obviously won't divulge the contents of our privileged communications between attorneys general.

[Alex Wagner]

Sure.

[William Tong]

And our strategy, except to say we were ready for this. He telegraphed what he was going to do, and we took him at his word.

[Alex Wagner]

And last but not least, I caught up with New York's Attorney General, Letitia James, who has been in near constant litigation with Donald Trump, both as president and as a private citizen. When I caught the AG by phone, the news had broken about another win for this group of Democratic state attorneys general.

[Letitia James]

Today we are celebrating this major win with regards to the National Institute of Health. We stopped the Trump administration from slashing vital medical and scientific research funding. And here in the great state of New York, that would have impacted billions of dollars to the University of Rochester and Buffalo and Albany and in Stony Brook. And as you know, those institutions are working on groundbreaking cures for cancer and Alzheimer's and heart disease, and they are economic engines in their respective cities. So, you know, we are on a winning streak, just as we were during Trump won, and we will continue to stand up for the rule of law.

[Alex Wagner]

The coalition has targeted Musk and the Doge team with two separate lawsuits, and your office is leading one of them. Can you talk a little bit about that and why, you know, you're focusing on Elon Musk and what the strategy is?

[Letitia James]

Well, primarily it's because I do not want an unelected individual to have access to the sensitive data of Americans. Their Social Security numbers, their addresses. There are tax refunds. He was not elected. He's not even an employee. And it's still uncertain as to, you know, who is ultimately the head of Doge. And so they primarily hide behind this argument, this notion that they are trying to, you know, get rid of waste and fraud and corruption. But there's nothing further from the truth. The reality is, is all that they are doing is trying to cut government, primarily to pass a Tax cut for the 1%, I guess.

[Alex Wagner]

I wonder what you think their calculation is and how you guys are responding accordingly, given the brazenness of all this.

[Letitia James]

Listen, I believe he's poked the bear. We've passed the Rubicon. And I believe that more and more Americans will respond to this crisis. I can tell you that seniors are a very, very vocal, active and powerful constituency. And when you start messing with senior citizens and their social securities, then you are going to feel the wrath like never before.

[Alex Wagner]

You must be tired of having to take Trump to court. No. It's been so many years. I mean, how do you think about it, just from a psychological perspective? First of all, you've been in his crosshairs. He's been focused on you for years now. I know you're once again in a lead role. And really, in many ways, you know, these AGs, you guys are the tip of the spear in terms of the resistance and acting as a bulwark against the worst impulses of the administration. And what does it feel like to be in that position still?

[Letitia James]

I don't have time to really think about it. You know, listen, faith and fear cannot share the same space. And my conscience is clear each and every night. And I worry more about my neighbors who are on Social Security, who are immigrants, individuals who are veterans who served our country, law enforcement. I worry more about those individuals. I'm going to be okay. I will be fine. And it's important that individuals understand. All throughout my career, all throughout my life, I've taken on bullies and I've taken on individuals who seek to separate us and who espouse hate. And Donald Trump is no different.

[Alex Wagner]

We're gonna take a break. We'll be back in just a minute.

[Rachel Maddow]

MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Chris Hayes]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.

[William Tong]

I think what we are seeing is.

[Alex Wagner]

Project 2025 in action.

[William Tong]

This is it coming to fruition.

[Rachel Maddow]

Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. He chose Each week, she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Alex Wagner]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues.

[Letitia James]

But as you look to kind of.

[Alex Wagner]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts, YouTube video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Chris Hayes]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for MSNBC [e-mail].

[Chris Hayes]

When the Federal government and Congress abandoned its responsibilities in it falls to us to step up and defend the people that we serve. And that is why we're doing what we're doing.

[Alex Wagner]

Arizona's Attorney General Chris Mays is one of the attorneys general leading this town hall in Phoenix, and each and every.

[Chris Hayes]

One of you who is here tonight is a patriot. You are a patriot.

[Alex Wagner]

Arizona. Arizona is an interesting state, moving in recent years from solidly red to a key battleground. Biden narrowly won the state in 2020, which was only the second time in nearly three decades that the state went to a Democratic presidential candidate. Trump won back the state last year, even after Arizona elected a Democratic governor and two Democratic senators. Arizona is also a state where you can really see the impact of Doge's actions. Since Trump took office, there are more than 34,000 federal workers in the state, and Doge's mass federal layoffs last month included staff overseeing hundreds of millions of dollars in loans for programs that benefit the state's rural communities. This past weekend, nearly 1,000 people gathered at a Tesla dealership in Tucson to protest against Elon Musk and the cuts being made by his Doge team.

[Chris Hayes]

Hundreds lined up on the sidewalk of.

[Alex Wagner]

That busy Tucson intersection holding signs, encouraged by honking drivers. These protesters say the actions of President.

[Rachel Maddow]

Donald Trump, Elon Musk and some in the administration, in their view, are undermining our democracy.

[Alex Wagner]

Back in Phoenix, Attorney General Mays took a moment to sit down with me ahead of the town hall.

[Chris Hayes]

We're really united as a group. All 23 Democratic AGs are united. Most of us are joining these lawsuits together, and we've been planning for this for a while together. As you know, Project 2025 has been out there for more than a year. We knew it was coming, I think. You know, I'm not sure we knew the ferocity of it and some of the cruelty of it. Took even some of us, including me by surprise. And the degree to which they were willing to be, especially in the area of, like, the federal funding freeze and the firings. So absolutely indiscriminate, doing it in such a hatchet way. You know, I mean, I think that visual with Elon Musk and the chainsaw was just, like, so emblematic of the whole thing. Also insane. I'm not sure that man has ever used a chainsaw in his entire life. Life. Not sure if that was some.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm guessing no. I'm just gonna say it. I'm guessing no.

[Chris Hayes]

Look, as a girl who grew up in Northern Arizona and rural Arizona, I have used a chainsaw. I've seen my dad use a chainsaw. That man has never used a chainsaw in his life.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, it just speaks to the lack of expertise here. Right. This person doing this stuff has no idea maybe what he's doing.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, none whatsoever. And. And the AGs are really committed to bringing lawsuits against the Trump administration when they engage in unconstitutional and illegal behavior. And it seems like that has happened pretty much every week since he took office.

[Alex Wagner]

Just in terms of the practical organization of these lawsuits, in Trump 1.0, you would have different states suing on different aspects of, you know, executive orders or whatever. This time around, it feels like you guys are talking to each other. You're kind of working in a unified fashion, which isn't to besmirch, you know, what was done and was very effective in Trump 1.0, but it feels like you're really working more as a team. And I wonder, just on a practical level, for the person that's on the outside of these calls, is it like, hey, Tish, you got this one. Keith, you got this? I mean, just give me a sense of how you guys divvy up the work.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I think, you know, AG's raise their hand based on their interest, their capacity, also inside their offices. So not every office has the capacity to lead one of these lawsuits. Obviously, you've got some states, like New York, California, Illinois, Massachusetts, even Washington state that have huge capacity. Some other states less so. And I think that's been part of the magic, which is we, because we're unified, because we're working together, we can do these lawsuits together and pool our resources, essentially. And so I'll give you an example of this. When I filed the lawsuit against Elon Musk and Doge, based on the fact that they are violating the appointments clause, I did that with New Mexico AG Ral Torres and Michigan AG Dana Nestle. We were working together. Our Staffs were working together literally day and night. We had some of the smartest lawyers in each of our regions and across this country working together, working drafts, doing edits on drafts, going back and forth until we got it right. And then we did the press conference afterwards together to announce the lawsuit and obviously get it filed. So that's the kind of thing that we can do when we're working together. And I think it's really special, frankly. I don't know that the governors are in the same spot, you know, and to some degree that's by virtue of the fact that, that we're the ones who can file the lawsuits. We represent our states. We are the top legal and in my case, the top law enforcement officer of our states. And so it's our job to protect our states and to advocate for our states against the federal government. And in this insanity coming out of Washington D.C. and I have been pretty forward leaning. I think it's a coup. I think it's a coup that we are experiencing. When you have an unelected billionaire in the form of Elon Musk rampaging through federal agencies, who knows, hoovering up private data, which by the way, is pissing off a lot of Arizonans across the political spectrum.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And violating the separation of powers. And then on multiple occasions they have violated court orders, even where we get tros against them. That is why I call it a coup. Because they are already violating federal court orders. We have had now twice, Alex, to go back in and ask for what's called a motion to compel after they have violated a court order.

[Alex Wagner]

You guys feel a little bit like the Democratic avengers. I mean, I think people have been a little bit bereft. Like, where do we look? Where's the leadership? And I feel like you guys are the people that are bringing the worst, most unlawful actions to the courts. Just if you could tell me about, like, is there a fighting spirit that you share? Like, what's the emotional tenor of this group of people when you get together? And I would say, like, when you hear from the citizenry and then you take that back to these zoom calls or these meetings, like, like, what does it feel like?

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I think there is a fighting spirit and there's, I think a view and a feeling amongst the attorneys general that we have a duty to fulfill to the nation and that we have never been in a more perilous time in our nation's history, probably since the Civil War. And we feel a deep obligation to stand up for our communities, for people who've been harmed and for our Constitution. And in my case, I feel like if I never do anything else in my life again but stand up for our Constitution and stand up for the people of Arizona, I'll be okay with that.

[Alex Wagner]

That's a lot.

[Chris Hayes]

This is it. I mean, this is.

[Alex Wagner]

That ain't nothing.

[Chris Hayes]

But I feel that way. And I know that I think other AGs feel that way, that this is a. You know, every once in a generation, Americans are called on to sacrifice and to fight for our country. And this is that time. And I believe there are a lot of Americans who are waking up every day believing the same thing.

[Alex Wagner]

We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner. Thanks for listening to get this show and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. Trompland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs, along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Jamiris Perez. Our crew includes Bill Hennessy on audio and Catherine McNamara and Patrick Morrissey on camera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Matthew Alexander is our executive producer and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free Listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Bay Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.