Insurance companies can't afford to deny climate change; coverage scarce in most-affected areas

Summary

Podcast Title: Trumpland with Alex Wagner
Host: Alex Wagner, MSNBC
Episode Title: Insurance companies can't afford to deny climate change; coverage scarce in most-affected areas
Release Date: January 10, 2025

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1. Donald Trump's Legal Challenges and Implications

In the early segments of the episode, Alex Wagner delves into the unprecedented legal challenges facing former President Donald Trump as he prepares to assume office amid multiple felony convictions.

Key Discussions:

• Supreme Court Decision: Trump is set to be sentenced for 34 felony convictions related to the New York hush money case. The Supreme Court declined his last-minute bid to delay sentencing, solidifying his status as a convicted felon prior to inauguration.

  Tim Miller [01:00]: "Donald Trump will re-enter the White House as a convicted felon... the Supreme Court decided not to intervene on Trump's behalf."

• 11th Circuit Court Ruling: The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals rejected Trump's attempt to block the release of Special Counsel Jack Smith's report on efforts to overturn the 2020 election, marking another judicial setback from conservative-leaning courts.

  Melissa Murray [03:49]: "The 11th Circuit's ruling is also really significant... The DOJ may dismiss co-defendants' charges, potentially leading to the release of the report."

• Potential Influence of Judicial Interactions: Concerns were raised about interactions between Trump and Justice Alito, one of the conservative justices who opposed Trump's Supreme Court plea, suggesting possible impropriety.

  Melissa Murray [09:44]: "The optics were obviously terrible... It reminds me of the census case where unexpected revelations shifted the Court's stance."

Notable Quotes:

• Melissa Murray [07:44]: "Donald Trump is still going to be convicted. His conviction will stand. He will be the first felon to be inaugurated as president."
• Chris Hayes [07:10]: "It's a fair decision, actually. So I'll do my little thing tomorrow."

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2. Devastating Wildfires in Los Angeles

The episode transitions to an urgent coverage of the catastrophic wildfires ravaging Los Angeles, highlighting both the extensive damage and the human stories affected by the disaster.

Key Discussions:

• Scope of Destruction: Two major fires, the Eaton and the Palisades, have consumed over 30,000 acres, resulting in the destruction of more than 5,000 structures in each affected area. Evacuations have displaced over 180,000 residents.

  Tim Miller [15:27]: "The Palisades fire alone has destroyed more than 5,000 structures... Combined, the fires have burned more than twice the size of Manhattan."

• On-the-Ground Reporting: Correspondents Katie Tur and Gotti Schwartz provided personal accounts from the Palisades and Altadena neighborhoods, illustrating the emotional and physical toll on residents.

  Katie Tur [25:45]: "I grew up... watching the Ridgeline from my grandmother's house... now, everything is decimated."

• Response Efforts: The fires remain largely uncontained due to extreme wind conditions, with federal assistance being deployed to bolster firefighting efforts.

  Tim Miller [19:36]: "President Biden announced a federal surge of firefighters and resources to assist the overwhelmed local teams."

Notable Quotes:

• Katie Tur [32:57]: "There's no way... all of the streets are decimated... it's an unfathomable amount of damage."
• Alex Wagner [30:19]: "These communities are easy to characterize from afar. It's easy to say, oh, this is a neighborhood full of rich celebrities, they'll be fine."

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3. Insurance Industry's Struggle with Climate Change

A significant portion of the episode addresses the mounting crisis within the insurance sector as companies retreat from high-risk areas, exacerbated by the increasing frequency and severity of climate-induced disasters.

Key Discussions:

• State Farm's Withdrawal: State Farm has canceled tens of thousands of policies in California, with nearly 70% of policyholders in the Pacific Palisades losing coverage just months before the wildfires devastated the area.

  Tim Miller [33:26]: "State Farm canceled almost 70% of their policyholders in the Pacific Palisades only months ago, and now that community has been decimated."

• Broader Insurance Trends: This retreat is not isolated to California; hurricane-prone states like Florida and Louisiana are also experiencing similar pullbacks from insurers.

  Jeff Goodell [36:26]: "We’re seeing Florida, Texas, California... insurers pulling out... The insurance risks are escalating quickly."

• Economic and Social Implications: The withdrawal of insurance companies threatens to destabilize real estate markets, making mortgages inaccessible and altering housing affordability and availability.

  Jeff Goodell [39:20]: "The real estate market driven by cash changes the housing market in a very profound way."

Notable Quotes:

• Jeff Goodell [37:28]: "The risks of living in this new climate... are not priced into insurance. The insurance risks are escalating quickly."
• Katie Tur [33:56]: "I hope that the attorney general does the right thing and we publicize the Jack Smith Report."

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4. Donald Trump's Geopolitical Assertions and Democratic Strategy

Later segments explore Donald Trump's contentious statements regarding international territories and the strategic responses from Democratic voices.

Key Discussions:

• Trump's Remarks on Panama Canal and Greenland: Trump publicly expressed intentions to annex the Panama Canal and purchase Greenland, statements that have stirred both confusion and concern among international and domestic audiences.

  Katie Tur [44:05]: "Panama doesn't have a standing army... Denmark has to take his comments seriously because of geopolitical implications."

• Democratic Response Strategies: The discussion emphasizes balancing humor with strategic emphasis on Trump's more damaging policies, advising Democrats to leverage absurd statements to highlight weaknesses without diverting focus from more critical issues.

  Katie Tur [44:26]: "It's okay for the Democrats to sometimes say, hey, look, this is what he's promised you and this is what he's doing instead."

• Policy Implications: Highlighted the lack of substantive policy proposals from Trump addressing pressing issues like inflation, contrasting with his focus on militaristic and expansionist rhetoric.

  Katie Tur [44:42]: "None of the plans Donald Trump has put forth have done anything to deal with [inflation]."

Notable Quotes:

• Katie Tur [41:56]: "If you're in Denmark or Panama, you do have to take this seriously. If you're in America, do you have to take it seriously? Probably not."
• Jeff Goodell [44:33]: "There are real geopolitical implications of this. It might be a joke. It might end up being something he stops talking about next week."

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5. Concluding Insights on Climate Resilience and Future Challenges

The episode wraps up with reflections on the urgent need for systemic changes to enhance climate resilience and mitigate future disasters.

Key Discussions:

• Adaptation and Infrastructure Overhaul: Emphasized the necessity for cities to redesign infrastructure, such as urban water supply systems and power lines, to withstand the escalating threats posed by climate change-induced disasters.

  Jeff Goodell [40:33]: "Building cities that are more resilient... We have built our world for a climate that no longer exists."

• Personal and Community Resilience: Highlighted the emotional and psychological toll on individuals like Katie Tur, who witness the destruction of their childhood neighborhoods, underscoring the profound personal impacts of climate disasters.

Notable Quotes:

• Jeff Goodell [39:20]: "We have built our world for a climate that no longer exists."
• Katie Tur [30:58]: "Memory is so linked to place... This is the present. The question of how to rebuild is not even answerable at this moment."

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Conclusion

This episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner intricately weaves together the pressing legal battles surrounding Donald Trump, the devastating impact of wildfires in California, the insurance industry's deteriorating stance on climate-related risks, and the broader geopolitical implications of Trump's recent statements. Through expert analyses and heartfelt on-the-ground reporting, the podcast underscores the multifaceted challenges posed by climate change and political turbulence, urging immediate and strategic responses to navigate the turbulent landscape of the new administration and an increasingly unstable environment.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tim Miller [01:00]: "Donald Trump will re-enter the White House as a convicted felon... the Supreme Court decided not to intervene on Trump's behalf."
• Melissa Murray [07:44]: "Donald Trump is still going to be convicted. His conviction will stand. He will be the first felon to be inaugurated as president."
• Katie Tur [25:45]: "I grew up... watching the Ridgeline from my grandmother's house... now, everything is decimated."
• Jeff Goodell [36:26]: "We’re seeing Florida, Texas, California... insurers pulling out... The insurance risks are escalating quickly."
• Katie Tur [44:05]: "Panama doesn't have a standing army... Denmark has to take his comments seriously because of geopolitical implications."

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Trumpland with Alex Wagner continues to provide comprehensive coverage of the intersection between political upheaval and climate crises, offering listeners in-depth analyses and firsthand accounts that illuminate the complexities of contemporary American society.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Alex Wagner]

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Alex Wagner]

How do we strategically align ourselves to.

[Chris Hayes]

This moment of information, this moment of.

[Tim Miller]

Transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Tim Miller]

There is no longer any question Donald Trump will re enter the White House as a convicted felon. The President Elect is due to be sentenced tomorrow morning at 9:30am Eastern for his 34 felony convictions in the New York hush money case, at which point he will go from being a felon to an officially convicted felon. In a last ditch attempt to stop that sentencing, Trump had asked the Supreme Court to intervene and attempt to effectively run out the clock until Trump was sworn in as president and could no longer be criminally sentenced. But just before we came on air tonight, the Supreme Court announced that they had decided not to intervene on Trump's behalf. In a 54 decision, Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Amy Coney Barrett sided with the three liberal justices on the court and denied Trump's request. Justices Thomas Alito, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh, however, said they would have granted it. This decision comes just one day after we learn that Justice Alito spent time on the phone with Donald Trump this week discussing a former Alito clerk who is now up for a position in the incoming Trump administration. According to NBC News, Alito and Trump did not discuss Trump's request, which had not yet been filed. But the Supreme Court was not the only conservative bench to deny Trump a win tonight. Just moments after the high court decision came down, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals handed Trump another rebuke, rejecting Trump's efforts to block the release of special counsel Jack Smith's report on Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Now, Trump's legal team was attempting to stop the Justice Department from releasing that report, and it looked initially like they might succeed. After a favorable ruling from Trump's favorite district judge, Eileen Cannon. But tonight, Again, the conservative 11th Circuit ruled that that report can be released and may be released as soon as this Sunday. We now have two significant judicial rebukes of President elect Donald Trump from two conserv courts. And while these legal victories do not change the fact that Donald Trump will be sworn in as president in 11 days, it does puncture the veil of invulnerability that has shrouded Trump in the lead up to his second term. And the big question is, is this a sign of what's to come? Joining me now is Melissa Murray, law professor and former clerk to Justice Sonia Sotomayor. She is, of course, the author of the Trump the Historic Charging Documents with Commentary. Also joining me is Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark podcast. Guys, thank, thank you for being here to respond to this, the very new and significant developments that happened within the last hour. Melissa, first, let me get your thoughts on the sort of double whammy lobbed Trump's way denials from conservative courts. How significant are they?

[Melissa Murray]

They're obviously significant. The ruling from the Supreme Court puts in place the sentencing for tomorrow cements that sentencing that's going to happen and that will make Donald Trump the first convicted felon to be inaugurated as president. So again, breaking barriers all over the place here. And the 11th Circuit's ruling is also really significant. I will note the 11th Circuit left Judge Cannon's temporary order blocking the release of the report for three days after the decision on appeal. So that means we won't get the release of this until Sunday. As you noted, Merrick Garland has suggested that he was not going to release the Mar A Lago report because there are two additional defendants there, co defendants of Donald Trump. That I think is a little interesting and concerning because it's entirely likely that when Donald Trump becomes president on January 20, the DOJ will dismiss the charges against Carlos de Oliveira and Walt Nauta. So we could just get this over with and have the DOJ dismiss those charges now and release the report. And I think there's a lot in the report that would be very important for the American public to know. But again, these are two significant wins. I don't know if it means that the courts are going to be bulwark against Donald Trump indefinitely going into the future, but it is, I think at this point a reason for Americans to breathe a sigh of relief.

[Tim Miller]

I want to unpack each decision separately. But Tim, just the first, this sort of the narrative here, maybe for some people the difference between A felon and a convicted felon isn't sizable. But I tend to think that Donald Trump cares that he's going to be entering office as a convicted felon and this sort of overture into his inauguration day is going to involve he'll be appearing virtually. But a court sentencing him to punishment for being convicted on 34 felony counts. I think that still matters. I think it should matter. What do you think?

[Katie Tur]

Yeah, I think that Melissa's here for the legal expertise and I'm kind of here to discuss the feels because that's like.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Katie Tur]

Your question.

[Tim Miller]

Right, that's right, sir.

[Katie Tur]

Does it matter in what sense and to who? Right. Because there's not any real ramifications for Donald Trump. Right. And he's not going to go to jail because of this. He's not going to be denied his inauguration because of this. And so, like, the only actual ramifications are historical like that this is now will be on the records that he will have broken this barrier as a convicted felon going into the White House and what it matters, what it means to him. And my initial response to all this was I thought that, I don't know, sometimes Donald Trump likes the show, likes the circus, and maybe it's like, heck, let's go do this thing. I'll go back up to New York for old time's sake and, and poke my finger in this guy's eye. But he really didn't want to do that. And so I think that he revealed that this bothers him. Right. Like the fact that, you know, tried to go to the Supreme Court and he's been lashing out on his social media all this because, you know, he's not somebody who plays his cards close to his vest. Like, you can, we can tell that he is upset about this. So if that matters to you, you can, you can take a little solace in it.

[Tim Miller]

Well, yeah, I mean, the fact is he's not coming to New York. Mostly. He's getting special dispensation to appear virtually. Right. I want to play Trump's response to this. He's holding onto the fact that the court in its decision suggest suggested that if Trump doesn't like the decision, he can go through the appellate process. This is what he said just a few minutes ago when ask about the Supreme Court's decision.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, they called for an appeal and.

[Tim Miller]

As you know, they acknowledge what the.

[Rachel Maddow]

Judge said about no penalty.

[Chris Hayes]

And there is really, there's no penalty.

[Rachel Maddow]

But we're going to appeal anyway. Just psychologically because frankly, it's A disgrace. So I read it, and I thought it was a fair decision, actually. So I'll do my little thing tomorrow.

[Chris Hayes]

They can have fun with their political opponent.

[Tim Miller]

I'll do my little thing tomorrow. First of all, the court didn't call for an appeal. They suggested he could follow that route. Right, Melissa? I mean, just break down for me what you think happens now.

[Melissa Murray]

The court did not call for Donald Trump to pursue an appeal. It simply noted that many of the issues that he had raised in his certiorari petition could easily be resolved through the traditional appellate channels in New York State. And a traditional appeal, not the sort of emergency appeal that he has been pursuing. Nor did the court say that this was a little thing because Judge Marshan had indicated that he was unlikely to give General Trump jail time and would be giving him an unconditional discharge. The fact remains that Donald Trump is still going to be convicted. His conviction will stand. He will be the first felon to be inaugurated as president. And that is really happening. And he basically said what Tim has been saying. It's psychological for him. This is not a distinction that he enjoys. It's not something that he wants hanging over his head. But in no way did the court minimize this. I will say he is right to a certain degree. That the court could have said a lot more. Fact that they emphasize the unconditional discharge suggests that perhaps they do, or at least some portion of the nine believes that the fact that this really isn't going to be an imposition on his duties in the transition period means that it's fine for this to go through. But if it were actually going to be a more weighty sentence, they might make a different decision on that point. So there's still a lot of play in the joints in this decision, but I don't think it's exactly as he characterized it.

[Tim Miller]

Melissa, I want to ask you another question about how the court came to this decision. Right. I mean, this comes the day after we had initial reporting from ABC confirmed by NBC News that Donald Trump and Sam Alito, one of the judges on the court, had a phone conversation basically talking about a new hire for the Trump White House. They assured the press that they did not speak about the filing that Trump would make later in the day. But I do wonder how much the appearance of impropriety there may have factored into this decision. The fact that Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett sided with the three liberals on the court. Do you read anything into that?

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, I think it's certainly worth questioning. You know, it was an unusual situation to have the President of the United States calling to check references on a relatively middling appointment in the Department of Defense, the General counsel sort of thing that usually a chief of staff might do, not necessarily the President himself, and calling the candidate's former employer a Justice of the United States, just before assertion petition is going to be filed before the Court. But there were no conversations. The optics of this are obviously terrible, particularly in light of the fact that we know that Justice Alito has been embroiled in a number of different controversies related to the perhaps inference that he has particular ideological views or those in his household have particular ideological views. So this wasn't great. And we know that the Chief justice, although he wrote the immunity decision for Donald Trump, he does care about the Court's reputation and its standing with the public, just issued his year end report on the judiciary, where he went into a whole thing about how the American public has to have faith in the court. So I really do think there might have been a situation here where at least two of the Republican appointed justices felt that, you know, the optics were really poor here and maybe that helped tip the scale, or maybe they simply just felt this was a dumb petition and it kind of was a dumb petition and they just went with that. But I think the optics were pretty terrible. And it reminds me of the census case. You go back to 2019, when there were Republicans were trying to put that citizenship question on the census. At oral argument, it looked like the entire Republican lineup was on board to side with the Trump administration. And then it came out that the Republican strategist cache of documents detailing how the Republican Party planned to use that census information to depress minority votership and change the representation maps around the country. All of a sudden, the Chief justice switched his vote, it seemed, and sided with those who had been opposing the addition of the census. Could be a situation like that.

[Tim Miller]

Before we go, Tim, your thoughts on the 11th Circuit, Eileen Cannon, Trump's favorite judge, someone he routinely praises for being brilliant, formidable. I know you guys talked on your podcast, the Next Level part of the Bulwark Network, about Eileen Cannon's audition for the Supreme Court. What did you make of her getting slapped down again by the 11th Circuit, which is decided. Yes, indeed, the special counsel's report can be released.

[Katie Tur]

Yeah, I'm not sure she cares about that so much. As long as she's still in the good graces of Donald Trump. Look, she's really stood out, and I think that the Eileen Cannon model is something to really be mindful of as we look into Trump 2.0, as I think he kind of outsourced a lot of these judge decisions to the conservative legal world, Leonard Leo and that crowd, I don't know that that's going to be the case this time. I think he's going to look for more people like Eileen Cannon, who he thinks are going to be truly loyal to him. And there were multiple times, including this one, where she advanced really preposterous rulings like in this, like there were elements of this with things that she was trying to suppress that weren't even under her purview. And so like the notion that this random judge is going to be able to do this favor for Donald Trump was kind of crazy in the first place. It's nice to see that overturned. I hope that the attorney general does the right thing and we publicize, you know, the Jack Smith Report and as Melissa mentioned, also I think the information about the investigation into into the Mar A Lago raid in the classified documents case.

[Tim Miller]

Melissa Murray, thank you for your legal expertise. Tim Miller, we have many more fields to discuss this evening, so please don't go too far. We have much more coming up with you ahead. Up next, we're going to follow the breaking news out of Los Angeles, where devastating wildfires continue to wreak havoc in one of America's largest and most populous cities. We're going to get the latest on the new fires that have just cropped up. That's coming up right after the break. Stay with us.

[Rachel Maddow]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime anywhere.

[Alex Wagner]

Let's get up to speed. We've got some breaking news right now.

[Rachel Maddow]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Tim Miller]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[Rachel Maddow]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Chris Hayes]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? We're sharing the first chapter of my new book, the Siren's How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource.

[Rachel Maddow]

To live at this moment in the.

[Katie Tur]

World, both online and off, is to find oneself endlessly wriggling on the mast, fighting for control over her very being against the ceaseless siren calls of the.

[Chris Hayes]

People and devices and corporations and malevolent.

[Katie Tur]

Actors trying to trap it. That's this Week on why IS this Happening?

[Chris Hayes]

Search for why Is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

[Rachel Maddow]

Get all of Rachel Maddow's original chart topping podcast series in one place with Rachel Maddow Presents, Binge, the Entire Bagman Series, seasons one and two of Ultra and every episode of Deja News, along with all of Rachel Maddow's new podcasts to come. These are untold stories of our country's past that could help us understand the state of our country today. SE Rachel Maddow Presents and follow to listen now. For ad free listening subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

Tonight, wildfires continue to ravage the city of Los Angeles. The two major fires, the Eaton and the Palisades fires, are still nowhere near being contained, with the Palisades fire at only 6% containment and the Eaton fire still at 0% containment. And fire crew are battling multiple other smaller fires all across Los Angeles, including yet another new brush fire, this one in West Hills on the far west side of the San Fernando Valley. That fire started just hours ago and has already grown to around 1000 acres with 0% containment. Collectively, the fires have burned an area of more than 30,000 acres, more than twice the size of Manhattan, and forced more than 180,000 people to evacuate. As we enter the third day of these fires, we are just starting to get a rough, and I mean very rough understanding of the scope of the destruction here. Officials are now estimating that more than 5,000 structures have been destroyed by the Palisades fire alone. That is the fire in and around the neighborhood of Pacific Palisades, which is on the west side of la, on the east side of the city, officials say the Eaton fire, which is the fire in and around the neighborhood of Altadena. Officials say that that fire alone has destroyed another four to five thousand structures. Now I should say that when officials use the term structures, that could refer to anything from homes to garages or even burned cars. Right now, the city's manpower is still primarily focused on fighting these fires and evacuating the people in the way of the fire. So these are just preliminary counts and officials warn that because these counts are done via helicopter and satellite, they are not an exact science. That said, we have images and they do not look good. This is a satellite photo from before the fire. It's an aerial view of homes along the Pacific coast highway in Malibu. This was that same stretch of road yesterday with home after home just completely gone. This is a satellite photo of what the neighborhood of Altadena looked like before the fire. You can see it's a relatively dense Neighborhood, lots of homes, lots of businesses. Here is that same neighborhood last night. This is an infrared satellite image, which is why the mountains appear blue, but the orange and red you see there is fire. Here's that same neighborhood, but zoomed out a bit more. It's just an unbelievable amount of it. On fire Again, all the numbers we are getting from officials about the scope of the damage are preliminary numbers, and that means they are very likely to change. In the past 24 hours, the financial firm JP Morgan doubled its estimate of the total economic loss expected from these fires. The estimate is now nearly $50 billion. But again, these are all just early estimates. Los Angeles is still focused on firefighting and evacuations to begin a proper accounting of just how much damage has been done. And unfortunately, property damage is just one of the things we truly do not know the full scope of yet. Here was LA County Sheriff Robert Luna today speaking about the official death toll from these fires, which as of last night was at 5.

[Rachel Maddow]

Regarding any death toll information. Yes, we had preliminary numbers yesterday. I got to be honest with you as I reviewed some of those last night and this morning, I was not satisfied with some of the information that we're getting. And it's not the fault of our people. The people that are working under very difficult conditions are doing their best to do what they need to do. At one point we'll be able to do a more thorough search of these impacted areas. Some of them look like a bomb was dropped in them, where we will be able to bring in canines and other things to help us hopefully not discover too many fatalities. That's our prayer. Unfortunately, based on the preliminary information, I've seen at least in the both to the two large fires that we're dealing with on each side of the county. Unfortunately, I think the death toll will rise. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's going to rise.

[Tim Miller]

Since Sheriff Luna made those remarks this morning, the official death toll has risen to six. One of the key factors fueling all of these fires and making them so very difficult to fight is the wind speed. The National Weather Service warns that wind speeds are likely to increase again tonight with gusts of up to 65 miles per hour. They should die down again tomorrow morning through this weekend, but they are expected to pick back up with another strong Santa Ana wind event anticipated to begin on Monday. And with no forecast of rain, that means these fires will remain difficult to fight. But backup is starting to arrive. Yesterday, the LA County Fire chief told reporters that LA's more than 9,000 firefighters were not enough to fight this many fires all at once. Today, President Biden announced that the federal government will give and surge 400 federal firefighters, 500 wildlife clearance personnel, and 30 firefighting planes and helicopters to the region. The state is also expecting hundreds of firefighters from nearby states like Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon, as well as from as far away as Canada. As much as the damage from these fires is already horrifying, the threat of even more damage is still very much alive. Joining me now is NBC News correspondent Gotti Schwartz, who's live near the Eaton fire in Altadena, California. Gotti, I know you're wearing an apparatus to help you breathe. If you could just tell us kind of what the situation there is on the ground, the air quality and the containment efforts for one of the biggest fires in all of this.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, and sorry if I'm a little bit muffled. Just a little while ago, I mean, we were talking fine without the masks for a little bit. We took them down and then the winds shifted. And whatever we are smelling right now, or we're smelling when the masks came down was very much. It smelled toxic, hurt the lungs. And so we immediately put on our masks on. And so I'm gonna have to do this with the mask. Pardon me, but it is just the nature of what's happening out here.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Do what you need to do. Go ahead, please.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No worries. And right behind us, this is a building. You can see walls up. This is an exception here in this area of Altadena.

[Tim Miller]

The.

[Chris Hayes]

The neighborhoods down this way. Most of the homes there that we've been seeing throughout the day, they don't even have walls up. It is just the foundation. The only brick that's standing is maybe a chimney, if they had a chimney. Everything else is molten metal, concrete foundation, and the rest of it is ash. It has been astronomically horrific to see all of this devastation. And there's a lot of comparisons between the Eaton fire, which is what we're seeing out here. You mentioned that 4,000 str. And that includes some of the houses and then the structures that they may have behind there like a shed. And those numbers are preliminary. 4,000. Earlier, it was 1,000. They're saying 4,000 just by being in these neighborhoods. That's not a surprising number to us. That sounds accurate. But what I can tell you is yesterday we were also in the Palisades. And when you compare what we're seeing out here in Eaton, at the Eaton fire in Altadena versus what you're seeing out there in Pasadena, I'm sorry, in the Palisades, unfortunately, the Palisades, those numbers are extremely preliminary. Whatever those numbers are, they are going to be so much higher. And the type of devastation out there is just as bad as it was here. But again, there are differences in those communities. One of the things that a lot of people have been talking about today are questions about insurance and the assistance that the White House has promised and FEMA has promised and the assistance of covering 100% of the firefighting efforts for I believe it's 90 days and then possibly assistance for people that have lost everything here. The big difference between the community of Altadena and in particular a couple of streets down the way here is, is that this isn't necessarily a largely affluent community. There are some communities here that, you know, it's one stretch was described as non English speaking migrants who lived in rented houses and they weren't sure that the renters or the people that were renting them the property had insurance. And so there was a fear that because they didn't speak English, they were just going to take this as a complete loss and that they would have no resources. And so that, that is something that a lot of people here are dealing with and they're trying to figure out where to go from from tonight, where to go from here going forward because so many of them have been left with just the clothing on their back. And that's a cliche that you hear from time to time. However, it is the very shared reality for so many people that we've talked to. The fire ripped through here at about 4 o'clock in the morning. That's when so many people got out of their beds and they evacuated and so many of them had no time to gather their belongings and leave.

[Tim Miller]

Alex yeah, it's just a staggering amount of damage. Obviously we have just but a glimpse tip of the iceberg in terms of what the toll is going to be here. Gotti Schwartz, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for doing really essential on the ground reporting. Please stay safe. Appreciate you. Joining me now is correspondent MSNBC host, my colleague and friend, Katie Turf. She's in the Pacific Palisades neighborhood of Los Angeles where she grew up. Katie, you've been talking so beautifully and I've found it really moving talking about what this experience has been like for you, standing in the ashes of your childhood memories in a lot of ways. Can you just for people who haven't heard it and even for people who have, what's it Been like the last 24 hours.

[Alex Wagner]

It's been really weird. It's been really. It's been so weird. Alex. When this story broke a couple days ago, I looked at the images and I thought, oh, my God, this is going to be bad. Because, you know, I grew up. There were fires in Malibu. There were fires all over Los Angeles. My parents were news reporters. They had a helicopter. Literally grew up in the skies over brush fires and Malibu fires. I just have such vivid memories of it. And they would get close to the Palisades. I'd watched the Ridgeline from my grandmother's house in the Highlands. There was one in particular that threatened that Ridgeline, threatened to go through the valley and get into the Highlands. It never did. And we always felt so lucky that it never did. And this time, we were not lucky at all. That fire, which started in the Highlands, just ended up ripping through everything. And you would say to yourself, well, there's no way. Even if there was a fire in the Palisades, it would get the homes in the hills. It wouldn't go down to the flat areas like the Alphabet streets. And if you look at some aerials of the Alphabet streets today, or even just from a higher viewing point, which we can do from here, even though it's dark, so you can't see it now, all of the streets are decimated, and they're called Alphabet streets because they go A, B, C, D, E, F, G. I lived in Embry, and you just look at the line of streets and they're just gone, you know? And it's so weird rolling up to it because I come. I went to the first home we lived in here, and I came and I just was flooded with these memories, memories that I haven't considered in decades. You know, memories of carving a pumpkin with my. With my friends. Memories of the first time I rode a bike. I was great at riding the bike. I was not great at stopping the bike. I flew off the neighbor's front lawn and off the little ledge they had. I learned how to brake after that. I mean, I remember hiding from my parents because I was mad that they wouldn't give me Matchbox cars. They called the police and the fire department. There was an APB bulletin out. Look for this small girl. I. I was just hiding. I was just literally hiding in the yard behind something. They couldn't find me. I was a very stubborn kid. And just seeing that and trying to come to terms with the vivid memories I have. You know, the first kiss I had on the Alphabet streets with A boy named Johnny. We knocked teeth. These vivid memories I have compared to what I'm seeing now, where just. There's nothing familiar about it. I couldn't even identify. I had a hard time identifying the homes of my best friends up the street, you know, six doors down. I couldn't figure out which one it was. It's so unfamiliar that I think there's a. There's a distance. I don't think it's totally hit me yet what has happened, because I don't recognize anything. It doesn't look like my home. There's some fires up above me here. We moved around a lot. We had a number of. We lived in a number of houses here. We rented, and I lived in a house right below those fires. It's completely gone. And now there's hotspots. They're still really worried about those hot spots because the wind is going to pick up again. And there are some homes up there, just a couple of them, that haven't burned. And they're worried about it crossing the ridge, over into the other parts of the Palisades that have been able to stay safe from this, like the Riviera, and then into Brentwood and then getting to the fort. And they're just concerned that it could still be out of control. I will tell you, there were super scoopers up. There was aerial firefighting happening all afternoon. It was such a. And all morning. It was such a blessed sight, such a relief because they can really. They can impact the flames in a way that a single firefighter or even a team of firefighters cannot. But they're supposed to be able to operate at night. I haven't seen them in hours and hours, so I wonder what's happening. I heard it was maintenance, but who knows? It's weird, Alex. It's really weird. And these, for me, are just. Are memories. There are so many thousands of people. And Gadi's right. I think the estimate is wrong. It's got to be low. There are so many thousands of people that are going to be coming back to this, and it's not in their memories. It's their life, you know, it's their current. The life they are living right now. And the schools are closed. Not closed. They're destroyed. So even if you wanted to come back, you would have nowhere to send your kids. The grocery store's gone. I mean, the churches, the synagogues, gone. It's just really a terribly depressing scene. It looks apocalyptic. I mean, it's unfathomable. The amount of damage in this One town.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Memory is so linked to place. But of course, as you point out, this isn't the past for a lot of people. This is the present. And the question of how to rebuild, when to rebuild, how to rebuild, if you can rebuild, is just not even answerable at this moment. It is, I think when big natural disasters happen, it's very rare that we have someone who can speak so keenly to the emotional weight of the moment. And it's so valuable to all of us here inside the building and out to have you there, as hard as it is. It's really moving to hear you talk specifically. Yeah, please, one more.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I think you're. Listen, I think it's good to have people who know the communities that they're covering. And Jacob Soboroff grew up here too, and he's been speaking so eloquently about this as well. These communities are easy to characterize from afar. It's easy to say, oh, this is a neighborhood full of rich celebrities, they'll be fine. It's not just that there are a whole lot of middle class folks who've lived here for generations. There's a whole lot of history here that you can't rebuild. You can't just put a shiny veneer on, spend a lot of money and make it look all fancy and tony again. There's real worry that this place is going to change even more than it has over the past few decades. I mean, even for me, coming back here before this all burned down, it had changed a lot. It was a new social strata that had taken over. And there's a worry that that's going to continue, that there will be people who, you know, lived here because they lived here for a long time, who won't be able to continue living here, won't be able to have the next generation take over a home and send their kids to the lovely schools that will be rebuilt here, the public and private schools that will be rebuilt here. And I hope that there are, you know, in New York we have zoning regulations. You can only build this certain type of home and this certain type of place. You know, you got to hope that something like that happens out here. I'm not aware of the particulars of the zoning, but I would hope that down in the Alphabet streets, you wouldn't be able to take over multiple lots and just build these big style homes like we see in a lot of the other places. In the Palisades, the Alphabet streets was so they were small lots, small single family homes, and it was a beautiful place to grow up. You'd ride your bike around the neighborhood. You felt safe. The streets were small. You weren't worried about traffic. You could play ball in the street. And it's something that I hope that the town comes together and says to themselves, we need to keep that. We need to preserve it. We need to not give way to something else. Some of the other instincts, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Katie Tur, my friend, I am sending you a virtual hug and a real hug when you get back. Back. Thank you for doing the show tonight. Thank you for being there for all of us. Stay safe.

[Alex Wagner]

Thanks for having me.

[Tim Miller]

Still ahead, the staggering economic costs of the California wildfires as extreme weather trends towards a new normal. Veteran climate journalist Jeff Goodell joins me after the break. Stay with us.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Tim Miller]

JP Morgan is currently estimating that the overall economic cost of the California fires will be close to $50 billion. But given the fact that the largest fires remain uncontained and a comprehensive assessment is not expected to happen anytime soon, that number is more than likely to go up, maybe by a lot. This comes as California attempts to dig itself out of an insurance crisis, one that has been caused in large part by years of wildfires made increasingly worse by the effects of climate change. Just last year, California's largest home insurer, State Farm, canceled tens of thousands of insurance plans across the state, nearly 70% of State Farm policyholders in the Pacific Palisades were dropped from their coverage only months ago. And now that very community has been decimated. This phenomenon is not exclusive to the Golden State. In recent years, insurance companies have also begun pulling out of hurricane prone states, including Florida and Louisiana. And it is certainly possible, even likely, that this trend is going to grow given the stark reality of climate change. Joining me now is Jeff Goodell, a veteran climate journalist and author of the New York Times best selling book, the Heat Will Kill youl. First Jeff, thank you for being here tonight. I mean, first of all, we haven't begun to grapple with the implications of the state farm, for example, dropping coverage for 70% of the Pacific Palisades. But this is the future that's upon us. And if anything's a wake up call, do you think that the insurance company is saying you're no longer insurer, the climate risk is just too high? Is that the wake up call the country needs?

[Jeff Goodell]

Well, we hope so.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, do you think it's part of a larger trend? I mean, are we going to see more and more of this?

[Jeff Goodell]

Absolutely. I mean, you know, the, the, the risks of, of our, of living in this new climate, this hotter, more turbulent climate that we're living in now are not priced in to insurance. The insurance risks are escalating quickly. And you know, you were seeing it around the country. We're seeing Florida, Texas, California, price doubling, tripling, insurers pulling out. And there's tremendous financial implications to this because if you have insurers pulling out of a place and you try to go get a mortgage, you can't get it. So you then have a real estate market that's driven by cash and that changes the housing market in a very profound way. So there's all these sort of domino effects of this rising insurance prices. And it all boils down to, to this fact that we are not looking squarely in the eye of this new climate that we have created by 150 years of burning fossil fuels.

[Tim Miller]

I just, I wonder if this is a moment where people just decide not to rebuild or not to move back. Right. Even the people who can afford to do it would be putting themselves squarely in harm's way, whether it's wind or water or fire. You're talking about stretches of the PCH that are on, you know, like 100ft of land going to the sea. These were $85 million homes that are squarely in the path of destruction. I just wonder if we're beginning, we're Going to begin to see the real migration that is part of climate change, the inevitable effects of it.

[Jeff Goodell]

I mean, I think that there's no question that this will have an impact on that. I think that people build houses for all kinds of reasons and everybody is different. Some people can afford to, to build an $85 million house and then have it burned down every six years or something. I mean, there's different, as futile as.

[Tim Miller]

That, Sisyphean as that may seem. Right.

[Jeff Goodell]

And there's other people who, you know, one time they have, they experience a fire like this and they lose everything and then. And they're gone because they can't afford to rebuild. They can't afford to take these kinds of risks. I mean, hopefully we'll think differently. There'll be different planning. About the fire officials called the, you know, wildland urban interface where, where you have these buildings in these high risk areas. But ultimately this is going to be a kind of personal decision for a lot of people. And I think that it's inevitable that our changed climate is going to change where and how we live.

[Tim Miller]

It would necessitate also cities changing basic infrastructure. Right. I mean, having an urban water supply system in an area that is now one where massive wildfires can rip through means changing the way you deliver water. Power lines, which often start these fires, are going to have to be buried. Right. Does this not prompt a wholesale reevaluation of the way cities run?

[Jeff Goodell]

Well, let's hope so. I mean, when we talk about climate change, often we talk about green energy and clean energy and reducing CO2 emissions, which is really important. But an equally important or perhaps even more important part of that is the adaptation side, building cities that are more resilient. One of the reasons that there was a shortage of water from this fire is because power went out in some of the water pumps because of the fire. So if you had these water pumps on micro grids and things like that, they weren't so vulnerable to power going out. Then you would have better water supply. With things like sea level rise building in different ways, with more natural buffers and things from rising seas. You know, there's a whole bunch of ways that we need to rethink how we build our cities and how we live our lives. Because the sort of blunt truth of it is, is that we have built our world for a climate that no longer exists.

[Tim Miller]

We are in a different stage entirely. Well, this is, you know, a devastating, devastating moment. But from it, hopefully we will learn some lessons to make ourselves more resilient in the future that awaits us or is on our doorstep, I guess. Jeff Goodell, it's great to have you here. Great to have your perspective. Thank you for joining me tonight.

[Jeff Goodell]

Thanks for having me.

[Tim Miller]

Still to come, as we get ready for Trump 2.0, Democrats are grappling once again with a very familiar question. How seriously should they take the things that Donald Trump says? We're going to get some wisdom on that from the great Tim Miller just ahead. Today, all of America's living presidents were seated together in the Washington National Cathedral paying tribute to former President Jimmy Carter in a rare, somber show of unity. It was a stark contrast to Donald Trump's news conference on Tuesday when he announced his desire to take control of the Panama Canal annex Canada and buy Greenland, which is a Danish territory. As absurd as all of those proposals may be, Denmark at least is taking Trump's comments seriously. Officials told CNN a frank conversation about Trump's remarks ra than assuming he isn't serious will likely be the only way to stave off a crisis. Joining me once again is Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark podcast. Tim, thank you for being here. I really especially want to get your thoughts on the right way to talk about or not talk about Trump's cockamamie wackadoo plans, which may be real planks in his forthcoming administration. Is it entertain it like Denmark is or is it as Tony Blinken says? I don't think think it's not. It's not a good one. It's not going to happen. We shouldn't waste time talking about it.

[Katie Tur]

Yeah. At some level, I'm sympathetic to Tony. Right. Especially after like watching those last two segments with Katie and Jeff about all the real damage being done in California. I'm like, gosh, now I have to come on and talk about Greenland, invading Greenland.

[Tim Miller]

Well and precisely.

[Katie Tur]

It's hard to take it seriously at some level.

[Tim Miller]

For the record, that's what Trump is talking about with great passion and fervor in the middle of this crisis. It should be noted. But go ahead, please.

[Katie Tur]

Right, yeah. No, that is a good point. So look, these are the two ways in which I think it is politically meaningful, besides the point and laugh. And sometimes it's important to point and laugh. But there are real geopolitical issues here at stake. And if you look at Panama, Panama doesn't have a standing army. There's a reason that they didn't have one. They had a military coup a couple decades ago. Panama might have to reconsider their whole governing strategy, how they secure their country, what their relations is with us. You know how, you know how solid their alliance is with us. Same thing if you have Denmark. Look, these Scandinavian countries have to worry about Russia and incursions from Russia. This is why we're bringing in Sweden and others to NATO right now. So, Right. Like, there are real geopolitical implications of this. It might be a joke. It might end up being something he stops talking about next week. Who knows? But, like, if you're in Denmark or Panama, you do have to take this seriously. If you're in America, do you have to take it seriously? Probably not. But I think that if I was the Democrats, my advice to them going forward is, is twofold. Focus on the things that Trump does that actually hurt people. That's probably going to be the number one plank. But if there are opportunities to reach people, reach lower info voters with some, with some of the silly stuff, they should choose their spots and do it. Like, the reality is that Donald Trump did much better with people who don't watch new shows, and Democrats did better with people that do watch new shows. You know what kind of information trickles down to people that don't watch new shows? Dumb stuff like invading Greenland. So it's, you know, so it's easy to dismiss it and say, oh, well, you shouldn't talk about, you shouldn't talk about it. But if there are ways to demonstrate Donald Trump's weakness and failure to people who don't watch news shows by engaging in the silly stuff strategically, then I think it's okay to do well.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, Trump literally says jump, and congressional Republicans say, how high? Dusty Johnson, who's a congressman, has now introduced a bill this morning that would authorize Trump to purchase the Panama Canal. It is a joke until it is now something that you need to debate on the floor of the House. And there's your opportunity, is it not, Tim, for Democrats to shine a light and say this is the absurdity he's focused on as one of the biggest cities in America is burning.

[Alex Wagner]

Sure.

[Katie Tur]

And I thought this was an America first movement, you know?

[Tim Miller]

Exactly.

[Katie Tur]

And I think this is, this is, I think, the narrative that has to come into place. Right. Which is like, ostensibly, this election was about grocery prices.

[Jeff Goodell]

Right.

[Katie Tur]

It was about people suffering from inflation. You know, let me tell you, none of the plans Donald Trump has put forth have done anything to deal with that. Obviously, invading Greenland and Panama is not going to do that. Mass deportations is going to be inflationary. Huge. Extending tax cuts for rich people is going to be inflationary. They've offered no plans for dealing with costs and dealing with the things that essentially justified his his win in the eyes of some of these voters. And so I do think that it's okay for the Democrats to sometimes say, hey, look, this is what he's promised you and this is what he's doing instead.

[Tim Miller]

Tim Miller, thank you for joining me. Hanging for both ends of this program. You're the best. We'll be right, right back. That is our show for tonight.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Alex Wagner]

USA.