Chris Hayes (4:26)

Yeah. The speed with which this is intensified is just staggering. I think earlier Today at like 10:30am California time, there were just a few acres burning. By this afternoon it's 1200 acres. I would imagine the rapid spread of this has led to some of that chaos with people abandoning their cars, being told to run for their lives. Can you tell us what the evacuation process is like right now and, and how wide the evacuation area is? Given what you said, the wind gusts of anywhere from between 50 to 100 miles per hour that are expected tonight.

Chase Kane (5:03)

At least 30,000 people have been told to evacuate. Alex, I know it's kind of hard to tell because we're really, it just probably seems like we're in this dark place, but we're right near Santa Monica. As these winds pick up and howl again, I mean, Santa Monica would typically be within eyesight of the famous pier and Ferris wheel that so many people know. Malibu is maybe just a mile up the road to the left side of your screen from where we are. This is a really densely populated area and we we're calling it the Palisades Fire. But it's not just one fire burning, contained. It's actually lots of little fires because with wind like this, I mean, it doesn't take a lot of imagination understand how it grabs one ember and whatever that ember hits is going to catch on fire. It might be a tree, might be brush, it might be a car parked on Sunset, which I saw it was also houses up here on the ridgeline, at least a couple dozen homes. It's really hard for them to get a handle on exactly how bad the damage is because this is just developing so rapidly, devolving so rapidly, I should say.

Chris Hayes (5:55)

Alexis, Chase Kane, our NBC News national climate reporter. Chase, please stay safe. Thank you for that excellent reporting. You are indispensable in moments like this. I'm going to go now to NBC News national correspondent Jacob Soboroff, who's also in Pacific Palisades. Jacob, I know this is your hometown and I know Californians are used to wildfires. It's something that the governor has referred to not as wildfire season, but wildfire years in the state of California. This seems like a different order of magnitude entirely. Can you talk to me about what you're experiencing?

Jacob Soboroff (6:27)

Well said, Alex. It seems like we're in some kind of permanent state of wildfire season in Southern California. But not like this. Not like this. This is Pacific Palisades, California, as you mentioned. It also happens to be the place that I was born and raised. Up over that ridge right there, you are watching Will Rogers State Historic park burn. And on the other side of that ridge is Palisades Village, where it's the center of the community of 23 or so thousand people who live and work and play in this very beautiful part of the city of Los Angeles. It's a community with multiple schools, restaurants, thousands and thousands of homes. And where the fire started this morning, up near the Palisades Highlands, there are very few ways in and out. And that's why you heard about the cars being jammed up, people having a hard time get in, getting out those bulldozers that you saw in those images earlier this evening, pushing cars out of the way here, here on Sunset Boulevard. For people who have ever been to Los Angeles, where I'm standing right now is in between the Brentwood portion of Los Angeles and where the Palisades Village is. If you continue through the Palisades Village, you get down to the corner of Sunset and Pacific coast highway, which is where that staging area is, where Governor Newsom briefed the assembled media earlier tonight and made those remarks that you just mentioned. I just actually saw for the first time, I think. Tell me if I'm wrong, guys. Maybe embers coming in this direction because the wind continues to shift, Alex. The wind is going essentially in a southwesterly direct direction from where I'm standing right now. Let's just show Alex real quick. We've got another emergency service vehicle coming through right now. This is probably the 10th or 11th one that I've seen so far. That one is from Engine 71, Los Angeles City Fire paramedic. But this is not just LA City fire that is on this, Alex. This is a mutual aid type of situation. I've seen Los Angeles county firefighters out here, city of Santa Monica, law enforcement personnel. As I mentioned to Chris Hayes in the last hour, the Los Angeles Police Department, thousands of officers strong, is on a citywide tactical optical alert tonight. You hear about that sometimes in volatile situations involving, you know, protests and things like that, but not usually for a wildfire of this nature. And when I say it's different, that is because we're used to wildfires out in places like Malibu or in Malibu Canyon, where, and I don't want to minimize it, homes are destroyed and people's lives are upended and sometimes ended. But not in a place where there's tens of thousands of people living in Los Angeles. Never in my lifetime can I remember standing in Pacific Palisades and having the entire community evacuated as much of this part of Los Angeles burns tonight. Tomorrow morning is going to be a bleak scene here, and we haven't even seen the beginning of it. With winds expected to reach those peaks later tonight here, Alex, Jacob, give me.

Chris Hayes (9:13)

A sense of what it is like to be in the greater Los Angeles area right now because we're hearing reports of absolute chaos in evacuated areas. People abandoning their cars, cars abandoned on the road, bulldozed out of the way so firefighters can pass, people being told by police and first responders to run for their lives. I understand that's probably at the center. Center of all of this, but in the surrounding areas, and not just Malibu, but in Santa Monica and in LA Central. I mean, can you talk about the level of fear, the level of panic, the sort of evacuations? And I know, you know, you're just on the scene right now, anecdotally speaking. Set the scene for us, if you could.

Jacob Soboroff (9:51)

The road here was. It was like, you know, how do you describe one way on the Los Angeles Freeway completely gridlocked? The 405 northbound and the 405 southbound. Coming from our NBC News headquarters at Universal Studios, was completely wide open. Not a soul was driving in the direction seemed like that we were coming to make our way here to the west side of la. People are going as far as they can, as fast as they can away from this part of town. And when you heard about the scenes earlier today that resulted in those cars being abandoned on the roads, it's because of the bottleneck created by the developments in places like the Palisades Highlands or at the top of streets like Bienvenido, where I lived as a young guy growing up here in Los Angele, where there are very few ways out, There are fire roads, but those fire roads, too, become gridlocked or sometimes impassable. And so what people did at the beginning of this firestorm, and I think that's the only way to describe it, is to get out of their cars and places like Sunset Boulevard, outside of places like Kihilat Israel Temple in the middle of Pacific Palisades, and just start walking because it's a terrifying sight to behold to stand here and to watch this. I don't. I don't quite have the words to describe to you what it's like to be standing here in this part. It's called the Palisades Riviera. And looking back at Will Rogers park and knowing that that's just a small portion of the fire that's burning here tonight. And it continues. When I got to this location, Alex, and we arrived here at this part of the scene, that was a small fire that was just starting to burn. And over the course of the last hour or so that I've stood here, it has just exploded. And it seems to be exploding in all directions. Which is why I said in the last hour, Chris, if there's anybody at home watching MSNBC right now and you live in Pacific Palisades or in any of the places where there's a mandatory evacuation, get up and get out of your house and get on the road right now. Because if you're inside, you're not feeling these winds right now and and you can probably see they are blowing like we don't often experience. We know the Santa Ana winds here, they come in over those mountains and go out to towards the coast. But this place like a tinderbox right now.

Chris Hayes (11:58)

Jacob, you're doing some essential reporting, my friend. I think it's probably made all the more complicated that this is your hometown and you grew up in Pacific Palisades. So our thoughts are with you, brother. Stay strong and thank you for doing what you do.

Jacob Soboroff (12:09)

Thanks, my friend.

Chris Hayes (12:11)

We have a lot more to get to tonight. Donald Trump may or may not be serious about wanting to acquire territory from countries that do not want to give it to him, but his preoccupation with Greenland in particular has an absolutely crazy origin story which we are going to dig into coming right up next. Stay with.

Rachel Maddow (12:37)

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free Listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series Ultra, Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

Claire McCaskill (13:17)

I do think it's worth being very.

Chris Hayes (13:19)

Clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

Rachel Maddow (13:22)

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of msnbc all in one place sign sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com get all of Rachel Maddow's original chart topping podcast series in one place with Rachel Maddow Presents Binge the Entire Bagman Series, seasons one and two of Ultra and every episode of Deja News, along with all of Rachel Maddow's new podcasts to come. These are untold stories of our country's past that could help us understand the state of our country today. Search for racial Maddow Presents and follow to listen now. For ad free listening, subscribe to MSNB on Apple Podcasts.

Chris Hayes (14:16)

Today, the casket carrying the remains of the late President Jimmy Carter was transported from Georgia to Washington, D.C. in preparation for Carter's official state funeral later this week. That solemn occasion is coming as President Carter's legacy has just been thrust back into the news by incoming President Donald Trump. The Panama Canal is a disgrace.

Jim Himes (14:38)

What took place at the Panama Canal, Jimmy Carter gave it to them for.

Chris Hayes (14:43)

$1 and they were supposed to treat us well.

Jim Himes (14:46)

I thought it was a terrible thing to do.

Chris Hayes (14:48)

In a rambling press conference today, Trump attacked Carter's legacy while Carter's body was literally still on its way to the Capitol, to a city preparing to honor Carter's life. That fight with a recently deceased president has a lot to do with Trump's newfound fixation on American territorial expansion, which in turn led to a bizarre declaration that the US should regain control of the Panama Canal. Now, to understand what is going on in Trump's mind here, you have to go all the way back to January 9, 1964, exactly 61 years ago this week. At the time, anti American riots had broken out in Panama, in part over U.S. control over the Panama Canal. That conflict sparked more than a decade of very careful diplomacy, diplomacy which spanned the administrations of four presidents, with the goal of handing control of the Panama Canal over to the people of Panama. For most of that time, negotiations in Washington were serious and they were bipartisan. With a few notable exceptions, Democrats and Republicans were largely aligned on the plan to negotiate a fair treaty to hand over control of the Canal. A young moderate senator by the name of Joseph Biden even called the Panama Canal the last vestige of US imperialism. By 1976, the US was in the final stages of negotiating a treaty with Panama's leader, General Omar Torrijos. But right around that time, some enterprising far right conservatives realized that they could use the Panama Canal to gin up nationalist anger, anger among the American public. They began arguing that America should leave the negotiations and keep control of the Panama Canal and the Keep the Panama Canal, keep control of the Panama Canal movement. That movement then found a very charismatic messenger.

Jacob Soboroff (16:47)

The Panama Canal Zone is sovereign United.

Chris Hayes (16:49)

States territory just as much as Alaska.

Jacob Soboroff (16:52)

Is, as well as the states carved from the Louisiana periphery purchase.

Chris Hayes (16:56)

We bought it, we paid for it.

Rachel Maddow (16:58)

And General Torrillo should be told, we're.

Jim Himes (17:01)

Going to keep it.

Chris Hayes (17:03)

Ronald Reagan became the American avatar for the movement to try and keep the Panama Canal. At the time, Reagan was contesting Gerald Ford's nomination as the Republican candidate for president in the 1976 election. And Reagan made the Panama Canal a central issue of his campaign. Now, Reagan ultimately lost that primary to Gerald Ford, and then Gerald Ford went on to lose the presidential race to Jimmy Carter. But the Panama Canal issue did not go away, and neither did Ronald Reagan. The task of finalizing the agreement fell in President Carter's lap. And Reagan laid the foundation for his next presidential run by challenging President Carter at every step. Reagan gave public speeches and he testified before Congress. He even held a public debate with fellow conservative William F. Buckley over the merits of keeping the Panama canal. But in 1977, President Carter signed the treaty and that handed over control of the Panama Canal.

Jacob Soboroff (18:06)

We are here to participate in the signing of treaties which will assure a peaceful and prosperous and secure future for an international waterway of great importance to us all. But the treaties do more than that. They mark the commitment of the United States to the belief that fairness and not force should lie at the heart of our dealings with the nations of the world.

Chris Hayes (18:39)

Fairness, not force. It was a powerful statement by President Carter, but by that point, the issue had gone from a matter of diplomacy to a full blown wedge issue. There were even protests outside the White House. And that movement was part of the coalition that ultimately helped propel Ronald Reagan to victory over Jimmy Carter in the 1980 presidential race. And yet, despite Reagan's crusade, the Panama Canal Treaty remained in place throughout Reagan's presidency. Apparently, it wasn't a major priority for President Reagan once he was actually in office. But the germ of Reagan's populist crusade against the Panama Canal Treaty, that idea lived on in the minds of other populist minded conservatives. And so today, as we prepare to re enter the presidential administration of a man whose worldview remains stubbornly stuck in the 1970s and 80s, we are now relitigating one of the most cynical debates in American foreign policy. And because this is Donald Trump we are dealing with the foolish and ill conceived imperial ambitions go way beyond just Panama. Well, we need Greenland for national security purposes.

Jacob Soboroff (19:55)

People really don't even know if Denmark has any legal rights to it, but.

Chris Hayes (20:00)

If they do, they should give it up because we need it for national security. Donald Trump wants to take Greenland. You may recall that Trump toyed with the idea of buying Greenland during his first presidential administration, even though the nation of Denmark says it has less than zero interest in handing over Greenland to the United States. Remember, Greenland has effectively been under Danish control since the year 1814, which is well before the period of the 1980s, where Donald Trump's brain is apparently stuck. Nonetheless, today, the president's son, Don Jr. Landed in Greenland in order to keep speculation about the supposed American takeover alive. And in his press conference today, Trump refused to rule out the idea of using military force to acquire both Greenland and the Panama Canal. Though you should make of that what you will. The origins of Trump's Greenland scheme are both younger and even dumber than Trump's Panamanian fixation. As reporters Peter Baker and Susan Glasser reported in their book the Divider, Trump was first put onto the idea of acquiring Greenland by one of his billionaire friends, Ronald Lauder, who's one of the heirs to the Estee Lauder cosmetics fortune. According to Glasser and Baker, Trump was so obsessed with the Greenland idea in his first administration that it absorbed the National Security Council staff. Four months buying Greenland. And part of Trump's fixation with Greenland may have stemmed from his failure to understand how maps work. Actually, actually, Trump told Glasser and Baker, I love maps, and I always said, look at the size of this, it's massive. That should be part of the United States. Okay, now if you look at a map of Greenland, it does appear to be massive, right? But that's not because Greenland is actually massive or even approaching the size of the United States. It's because the Earth is a sphere. And so when you lay out the sphere on a flat map, all of the areas near the north and South Poles are stretched out to look bigger than they actually are. Greenland is still a pretty large territory, but in reality, it is not nearly as big as it appears on a flat map. Yet Donald Trump appears to have become obsessed with the idea of acquiring Greenland and maybe using the US Military to do so. Because Greenland looks massive. That is the level American foreign policy is about to be operating on today. Trump also reiterated a desire to make Canada the 51st US state, something Canadians have precisely no interest in. Trump also said he wants to rename the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America because he thinks that sounds better. All of this is obviously ridiculous, and in many ways it is a distraction from the things Trump could actually do as president. But the idea behind this territorial expansion is very serious. As Reagan proved 50 years ago, the concept of America as an expansive global empire can be a very intoxicating political force. And while buying Greenland may be a fantasy, powerful nations like Russia and China are trying to expand their territorial control at all costs. And America will have to decide if it wants to be on the side of sovereignty and self determination or whether it wants to be on the side of imperial expansion, however unhinged, that expansion may be a choice, as the late Jimmy Carter said, between fairness or force. Joining me now is Congressman Jim Himes, Democrat from Connecticut and ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman Himes, thank you for being here on this extraordinary day. First, let me just get your reaction to Trump's territorial lust over Canada, Greenland, and the Panama Canal.

Jim Himes (23:55)

Alex. You know, as the election results became clear, I swore to myself that I would not chase every single shiny object, every mad raving of our next president. But I will, for you, I will do this. I will jump into the romper room of things that are never going to happen. However, before I do that, Alex, I want us to realize why this is all happening. We are not going to take Greenland by force. We are not going to get Canada as the 51st state. We are not going to rename the Gulf of Mexico. So why is the President talking about that? The answer to that question, of course, is as I sit here in Washington, D.C. in Ways and Means conference rooms, Republicans are putting together tax cut bill bills that will deliver hundreds of billions of dollars of tax cuts to corporations and to the very wealthiest Americans. Now, this is a little bit at odds with the campaign that the President, the President Elect, ran. As we sit here right now, there are rooms full of people thinking about how to cut regulations that keep our water clean and our air clean. So what we're talking about here are things that are never going to happen. They're shiny things. They're little bits of tinfoil and fireworks designed to distract us from the fact that the President is going to completely fail to deliver on the economic promises that he offered people with a lot of economic anxiety. Okay, having said that, if you want, I'm prepared to engage on the question of Greenland and the Panama Canal.

Chris Hayes (25:22)

Well, and I'm the first one to point out that a lot of this seems totally unhinged, which is what I said earlier. But I do think there's something significant about territorial expansion at all costs. And the comparison to Russia and China was not made in Japan. And I think also we're talking about Denmark, which is a NATO ally, Greenland, which has military bases, the Panama Canal, through which we ship a lot of goods, and Canada, which is a huge trading partner and ally of the United States. And even if it amounts to a hill of beans, the rhetoric is pitched and kind of insane. The idea that the US the incoming President of the United States, is talking about military action to take Canada, yes, it's a romper room of sorts. But I do think there's probably some repercussions to angering allies like those with rhetoric like this.

Jim Himes (26:12)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay, let's do it. It ain't gonna happen. Right. Denmark is a critical NATO ally of ours. No Panamanian government would survive discussions to return the canal to the United States. By the way, if we're going to return the Panama Canal to the United States, why don't we return the Suez Canal to the British and the French? Why don't we let the British reclaim the rail they built in India? Right. By the way, you did a good job of covering the history of the Panama Canal. You didn't mention the fact that 110 years ago, Teddy Roosevelt and his guys basically created the nation of Panama in order. Stole it from Panama, essentially. Sorry, from Colombia in order to create the Panama Canal. Long imperial history here. That is actually. And again, let's do it. You know, is actually very, very painful for Latin Americans, you know, when, you know, the Gulf of Mexico, does Mexico matter to us? Yes, it does. If Mexico is piss at us, they're not going to do all that they need to do to help us with the southern border, to help with the migrant problem, to help us with the fentanyl that's coming across the border. So, yes, this stuff does have consequences. Now, here's my guess. My guess is that the government of Denmark, the government of Canada, and the government of Mexico and the government of Panama know what we all know, which is that 80% of what Donald Trump says and does is noise. It's the 20% that is not noise that you need to worry about. And I promise you that not the Gulf of Mexico, not Canada and not Greenland are in that 20% of real things that Donald Trump is going to do.

Chris Hayes (27:40)

Yeah. Despite the fact that Marjorie Taylor Greene actually introduced a bill on the House floor today to rename the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America. I do think, you know, as Trump talks about expanding America's power, he's doing something very concerted. At the same time, he began this press conference talking about a multi billion, $20 billion foreign investment to build American data centers from an Emirati, courtesy of an Emirati billionaire and a Trump ally named Hussein. Donald Trump has put a for sale sign on this country, ironically, as he talks about buying other ones. And I wonder how concerned you are about his championing of foreign investment here with no strings attached and unwinding any sort of pesky regulations that may get in the way of foreign investment here in the U.S. yeah.

Jim Himes (28:29)

Well, you know, we have pretty well established mechanisms to make sure that the foreign investment here in the United States is not a national security threat. You know, there's a little esoteric organization called the Committee for Foreign Investment in the United States, lovingly nicknamed cfius. And their job is to make sure that this sort of investment doesn't put at risk our national security. Now, by the way, we're having, you know, a pretty ugly conversation about national security when the current president refuses to allow Nippon Steel to buy US Steel, even though that would probably be good for US Steel, and does it on national security reasons, even though Japan is probably our most important ally in Asia. So again, it's a little bit of a romper room here in Washington. And I hope that at some point, and look, I get that our politics have become entertainment, but I hope that at some point we recognize that as the single most powerful country on the planet, we really do. As much fun as it's going to be to overturn a whole bunch of apple carts, we really do at some point need to be a responsible actor on the global stage and start, start, you know, acting that way and hopefully the president communicating that that's who we are.

Chris Hayes (29:38)

Congressman Jim Himes, thank you for joining me tonight. Appreciate your time, sir. I'm going to turn now to Claire McCaskill, former senator from Missouri and current MSNBC political analyst. Claire, thank you for being here. I actually thought about you as I was listening to this press conference from Donald Trump today. And let me just first get your thoughts, you know, generally about the sort of it feels like the beginning of the Trump presidency, part two, in all of its, I guess I'll use the word splend.

Alex Wagner (30:05)

Yeah. And I kind of agree with the congressman. I do think there are things he's doing to distract. But underneath it, it's really concerning because the deal is our country has always been seen as the grown up on the international stage. We have been seen as the country that can do elections fairly, that has a rule of law that's administered without political freedom threats, that actually helps our allies and stands up to bullies across the world. And Donald Trump has campaigned really in a way that blows all that up. He has never been respectful of our allies. And it's weird to me that you would start your presidency by picking fights with your border countries, whether it's Canada or Mexico. Both of these countries are pretty important to the United States in lots of different ways. Trade, national security, shipping, the movement of goods, all of those things, they matter and to pick a fight before you even take the oath of office with countries that we need to be our friends. I really think this idea that he wants to be Putin and try to expand to areas where the people don't want it is not a good step forward for the United States.

Chris Hayes (31:37)

Yeah. And that's exactly, I think, what I find most distressing about this. This seems to be, I mean, we know that Trump's had a Greenland fixation since his first term, but to be for the American, incoming American president to be saying this at the same time that Russia is trying to take Ukraine and has been for some time and the Chinese are doing what they're doing with the Uyghurs and with other at this moment in time. To be saying that in this geopolitical climate seems deeply distressing, not just for, you know, geopolitics writ large, but for what you said, for what America has represented and the signal this sends to autocrats and dictators around the world.

Claire McCaskill (32:15)

It's.

Chris Hayes (32:16)

I want to be like you.

Alex Wagner (32:18)

Exactly. Exactly. And nobody believes that we're going to go to war with Denmark. We're not going to do that. Nobody believes we're going to go to war with Panama over the Panama Canal. We're not going to do that. That's not going to happen. But it is setting a tone that he thinks helps him, which is to be unpredictable, unreliable. Basically, that press conference was just one giant fact check of lies. So many things he said were not true, from the trade deficit numbers with and Europe to the fact that Europe doesn't take our cars, to all of the nonsense he always says about inflation is at the highest ever, which of course is not true. There are a million things that he said in that press conference that are lies, half truth and downright misinformation for the American people. And to throw in there that I'm going to go to war with Denmark over Greenland seems to be a throwaway. And I'm with Jim Himes on this. Pay attention to what they're actually up to. Their number one priority. They may have done a show bill today, which I don't disagree with, that we need to deport people who are here illegally that violate our laws. That's. I think most Americans agree with that. But the real thing they're working on is making sure that his billionaire bros and his billionaire friends get their tax breaks. And that's not the folks that come to his rallies. Those are the folks that are slipping him a million dollars at Mar a Lago.

Chris Hayes (33:55)

A million dollars more. Claire McCaskill, it's great to see you, Claire. Thanks for joining me tonight.

Alex Wagner (34:01)

You bet.

Chris Hayes (34:02)

We have much more to get to tonight, including Mark Zuckerberg's huge gift to Donald Trump. Speaking of gifts. But first, Trump still has a few legal hurdles to clear before Inauguration Day, and we're going to get into those with MSNBC legal analyst Joyce Vance coming.

Rachel Maddow (34:24)

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

Chris Hayes (34:31)

Let's get up to speed.

Alex Wagner (34:32)

We've got some breaking news right now.

Rachel Maddow (34:34)

Watch your favorite shows live.

Chris Hayes (34:35)

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

Rachel Maddow (34:40)

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app the first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

Chris Hayes (35:06)

Now is the time.

Alex Wagner (35:07)

So we're gonna do it, providing her.

Rachel Maddow (35:09)

Unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

Chris Hayes (35:12)

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

Rachel Maddow (35:18)

The Rachel Maddows show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

Jacob Soboroff (35:23)

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? We're sharing the first chapter of my new book, the Sirens Call, how attention became the World's Most Endangered resource. To live at this moment in the world, both online and off off, is to find oneself endlessly wriggling on the mast, fighting for control over her very being against the ceaseless siren calls of the people and devices and corporations and malevolent actors trying to trap it. That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now, and follow.

Chris Hayes (36:05)

In the remaining two weeks before Donald Trump officially becomes president again. He is still confronting very live issues in court, including whether or not he will be sentenced in New York City after being found guilty on 34 felony counts this past May. Today, a New York appeals court judge rejected Trump's emergency bid to postpone his sentencing in that case, which means that Donald Trump will be sentenced this Friday unless a federal court or the United States Supreme Court court steps in. At the same time, Trump is trying to fight the release of Special Counsel Jack Smith's two volume report describing Smith's decisions to charge Trump for hoarding classified documents at Mar A Lago and for Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Today, Judge Aileen Cannon in Florida issued an order blocking the release of Smith's report until the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals rules on the map. Joining me now is Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Alabama. Joyce, it is great to see you. I am very eager to hear your assessment of how, first of all, the timeline we're talking about here with the 11th Circuit and whether you think they'll make a decision before Inauguration Day.

Claire McCaskill (37:16)

It's a great question. And before we even get to the 11th Circuit, there's a problem with this order that Judge Cannon issued. That problem is that she arguably has no jurisdiction because she has already dismissed the case, and judges can't act on cases that are in front of them. It looks like the defendant's lawyers figured that out because they filed a supplemental motion this afternoon. They asked the 11th Circuit to refer the case back to Judge Cannon, hoping that they could hold on to this very favorable ruling that she issued. And we'll see if they do that. But like you say, the whole question here is, how quickly is the 11th Circuit inclined to act? We've seen them move very quickly in other cases. That's been my experience with them over the years, that in the right case, they will step in and rule. So we may well see something from them imminently if they, if they don't.

Chris Hayes (38:10)

Choose to act, if they don't issue a ruling and wait until after Inauguration Day, it's basically a wash. Right, because then the matter gets settled at the doj, assuming they do say, you know, if they do want their report released, which would be presumably the best outcome for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith. There's going to be new management at the doj. Right, and management that, by the way, is made up of lawyers that have defended Trump in these very cases, right, Joyce?

Claire McCaskill (38:37)

Absolutely. This is a delay game for Trump. All he has to do is get past the finish line, which is Inauguration Day, and he can shelve the report. So DOJ's move is to get Cannon's order vacated. If the 11th Circuit vacates that order, if there's some acknowledgment that she lacks jurisdiction, then they're free to go ahead with the release. You know, Alex, she never had the January 6th case in front of her. It would be a real gamble for the Justice Department to release at least the January 6 part of the report, despite the existence of this order. But it's a real hash for DOJ knowing that their work will disappear if they don't get a court to order them or at least permit them to release the material before Trump takes over.

Chris Hayes (39:23)

What happens to the report if it doesn't get released? If it stays within the confines of the doj, is there a chance it could get leaked? Is there someone in archives that Trump could be, you know, persuade to flush it down the toilet? I mean, what practically happens to something like this?

Claire McCaskill (39:38)

So there's a records retention policy inside of doj, like in many government agencies that actually requires that these records be retained. I had lots, lots of old case files that lived in my office and then would get shipped off to a filing area where they were retained for at least 10 years. You're not really permitted to destroy government records. How that would hold up in this situation, we don't really know. You know, DOJ is not a place that one thinks of as being full of leakers. Although, ironically, there's a report today talking about leaks at the tail end of the Trump administration. Administration. But I would hope that although it would be painful to see this happen, folks at DOJ would not act inappropriately, would not let Donald Trump corrupt their practices. We know a lot about the January 6th case. We know some about the Mar A Lago case. Whether release of the report will really matter, I think is perhaps less important than standing on principle. This one final time.

Chris Hayes (40:38)

Joyce fans, thank you again for your expertise. I appreciate you. You still ahead, Metta CEO Mark Zuckerberg blows up fact checking across his social media empire in an apparent capitulation to incoming President Donald Trump. What it means for the spread of disinformation and the future of political discourse. That's coming up next.

Chase Kane (41:10)

Governments and legacy media have pushed to censor more and more. A lot of this is clearly political. After Trump first got elected in 2016, the legacy media wrote non stop about how misinformation was a threat to democracy. We tried in good faith to address those concerns without becoming the arbiters of truth. But the fact checkers have just been too politically biased and have destroyed more trust than they've created, especially in the.

Chris Hayes (41:35)

US Today, Facebook founder and Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg made a major announcement that seemed tailor made for Donald Trump.

Chase Kane (41:44)

We're going to get rid of fact checkers and replace them with community notes similar to X.

Chris Hayes (41:49)

Starting in the US Meta is getting rid of its fact checking partners that moderated content on its site, including Instagram and Facebook. And now instead of having trained fact checkers trying to weed out misinformation, Meta will move toward content moderation via Community Notes. Joining me now is Charlie Warzell. He's a staff writer at the Atlantic covering media and technology. Charlie, it I'm surprised Mark Zuckerberg didn't make the announcement in a red MAGA cap, because the intentions here seem quite obvious. In addition to doing this, he's moving what's left of the content moderation team to Texas from California, where I guess everything is more neutral and unbiased, and is also bringing Dana White, Trump's ufc but onto the board of directors of Meta. What is your reaction to all of this in terms of Mark Zuckerberg and what it signals?

Charlie Warzel (42:40)

Well, I will say he did send Joel Kaplan, the Republican operative who's now head of policy at Meta, on the Fox News, to basically announce it to Donald Trump. So he kind of did do what you were saying. I think that this is just a kind of complete and total capitulation to the Trump administration, but also to the general sort of political winds and the winds of discourse course, as he described it earlier today. I think he feels that the election is, is some kind of, you know, vote of no confidence in the legacy media, but also just in, you know, anything that could be broadly defined as woke. And he wants to, you know, get out ahead of that and I guess turn Facebook or Metta products into X. Like Elon Musk.

Chris Hayes (43:29)

Yeah, the Elon Musk of it all seems to loom large. And I wonder how much emulating Elon Musk and his relationship with Trump is in the back of Mark Zuckerberg's mind, but also probably more urgently, what this practically does to the spread of information. I know that some people think Community Notes, while deeply flawed, is probably the best model that maybe X at least could use to try and mitigate some of the garbage that's on the Internet. I mean, what's your thought about how effective this change of moderation is on X?

Charlie Warzel (44:03)

Community Notes is probably the best thing that Elon Musk has done. I think that there is broadly, there's a lot of good stuff there, a lot of people pushing back. Often they push back on Elon Musk and sometimes those just disappear. So it all depends on how the platform chooses to enforce this type of thing. In terms of the broader scale issues, I would say that it's too early to tell exactly what's going to happen, but we've already seen what does happen when they just let things, you know, run amok. Right. I mean, these, these fact checkers didn't just show up one day because the legacy media wrote about it that there were reports, reports that Facebook published about, you know, its own involvement in the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar. There are real issues here. The, the election interference stuff also wasn't just a, you know, made up by the mainstream media or Democrats. This is something that actually happened that needed to be investigated.

Chris Hayes (45:02)

I will say just the woke content mediators that Zuckerberg is talking about in his video were people from USA Today who have been champions of really straight down the line fact checking and reporting. So the contention that they are somehow part of the woke mass that's trying to censor right wing thought is a canard, which is being euphemistic. I'll also end this segment saying that Amazon, Jeff Bezos is paying $40 million to license a documentary about Melania Trump. The ring kissing knows no price tag. Charlie Warzell with the Atlantic. Thanks for your time, sir. We will be right back. Before we go tonight, we have an update on the news out of California where Governor Gavin Newsom has now declared a state of emergency as a fast moving series of fires have spread over more than 2,900 acres in Los Angeles. That is twice the number of acres we reported earlier this hour. Just shocking and staggering expansion. Again, this fire is being fueled by intense winds that are only expected to get stronger overnight. It's worth remembering that this is a dense urban area. This is Los Angeles, California. This fire has already forced more than 30,000 residents to evacuate and there are more than 10,000 structures at risk. We will keep you posted on all of that, but that is our show for this evening.

Rachel Maddow (46:30)

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC Original Podcast are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.