Reality is tougher than Senate confirmation in Bondi's aim to do Trump's bidding

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner: Reality is Tougher than Senate Confirmation in Bondi's Aim to Do Trump's Bidding

Episode Overview

In this episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, host Alex Wagner delves deep into the complexities surrounding the recent ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel, the political maneuvering ahead of President Donald Trump's inauguration, and the controversial confirmation of Pam Bondi as Trump's nominee for Attorney General. Additionally, the episode touches on President Joe Biden's farewell address and the rollback of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives in major corporations. Wagner engages with experts and analysts to unpack these multifaceted issues, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current political landscape as the U.S. transitions back to a Trump administration.

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Ceasefire Agreement Between Hamas and Israel

Breaking the Longest Siege

The episode opens with Alex Wagner reporting on the groundbreaking ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel aimed at ending the 15-month-long conflict in Gaza, which has resulted in over 46,000 fatalities. The deal outlines a three-phase approach:

1. Phase One (Next Six Weeks):

   • Implementation of a complete ceasefire.
   • Release of Israeli hostages, including American citizens Sagi Decalchen and Keith Siegel.
   • Withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza's populated areas.
   • Surge of humanitarian aid and the return of Palestinians to their neighborhoods.

2. Phase Two:

   • Negotiations for exchanging remaining hostages.
   • Permanent cessation of hostilities.

3. Phase Three:

   • Full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.
   • Return of hostages' remains to their families.
   • Initiation of a major reconstruction plan.

Political Clash Over Credit

Shortly after the agreement was announced, President-Elect Donald Trump publicly claimed credit for the ceasefire, stating, "This epic ceasefire agreement could have only happened as a result of our historic victory in November. We have achieved so much without even being in the White House" (00:55). Despite Trump’s assertions, the deal mirrors the Biden administration’s proposals from the previous May. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had been in communication with both Trump and Biden regarding the agreement, highlighting the tense interplay between the outgoing and incoming administrations.

Expert Analysis with Ben Rhodes and Eamonn Mohideen

Wagner converses with Ben Rhodes, former Deputy National Security Adviser under President Obama, and Eamonn Mohideen, host of Amen on MSNBC, to dissect the implications of the ceasefire deal.

• Ben Rhodes (04:22): Rhodes emphasizes the convergence of interests between Biden and Trump, noting that while Biden sought to secure peace during his tenure, Trump aimed to ensure stability ahead of his second term. He highlights Netanyahu’s strategic positioning to maintain political control and suggests that Trump’s involvement was instrumental in finalizing the agreement.

• Eamonn Mohideen (06:19): Mohideen expresses cautious optimism, focusing on the immediate relief for Gaza’s civilians. However, he raises concerns about the sustainability of the ceasefire, pointing out contradictory statements from the incoming National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, about the future governance and military status of Hamas.

Challenges Ahead

Rhodes expresses hope for the immediate benefits but remains skeptical about the long-term success, citing unresolved issues such as governance in Gaza and the potential for renewed hostilities. Mohideen adds that the ongoing recruitment by Hamas poses a significant threat to lasting peace.

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President Biden’s Farewell Address: Warning of an Emerging Oligarchy

Ominous Warnings

As President Joe Biden prepares to leave office, Wagner highlights his farewell address, where Biden warns of an emerging American oligarchy threatening democracy. Biden stated, "Today, an oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power, and influence that literally threatens our entire democracy, our basic rights and freedoms" (18:00).

Discussion with Claire McCaskill and Jonathan Martin

Wagner engages with Claire McCaskill, former Democratic senator from Missouri and current MSNBC political analyst, and Jonathan Martin, senior political columnist for Politico, to analyze Biden’s somber message.

• Claire McCaskill (19:34): McCaskill underscores Biden’s critique of misinformation and the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few, particularly targeting major media conglomerates. She argues that Biden’s warning serves as a clarion call against the unchecked influence of billionaire-controlled entities in shaping public discourse and policy.

• Jonathan Martin (23:26): Martin echoes McCaskill’s sentiments, emphasizing the systemic issues Biden highlights. He points out the deep-rooted challenges the Democratic Party faces in countering the oligarchic influences that undermine populist agendas.

Key Excerpts from Biden’s Address

Wagner plays significant excerpts from Biden’s farewell speech, including his condemnation of misinformation and calls for Supreme Court reforms:

• "Americans are being buried under an avalanche of misinformation and disinformation enabling the abuse of power. The free press is crumbling. Editors are disappearing. Social media is giving up on fact checking. The truth is smothered by lies told for power and for profit." (21:23)

• "We need to enact an 18-year time limit. Term limit, time and term for the strongest ethics and the strongest ethics reforms for a Supreme Court." (24:11)

Implications for Democracy

The discussion highlights Biden’s focus on combating misinformation and reducing the influence of wealthy elites on democracy. McCaskill emphasizes the necessity of ethical reforms and term limits to ensure a more accountable and transparent governance structure.

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Pam Bondi’s Controversial Confirmation Hearing

Dodging the Big Lie

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the confirmation hearing of Pam Bondi, Trump’s nominee for Attorney General. Bondi faced intense scrutiny for her refusal to acknowledge Donald Trump’s loss in the 2020 election—a central tenet of the "Big Lie" conspiracy theory.

• Key Exchanges:
  • Senator Durbin (29:36): "Are you prepared to say today, under oath, without reservation, that Donald Trump lost the presidential contest to Joe Biden in 2020?"
  • Pam Bondi (29:43): "President Biden is the president of the United States."

Despite multiple attempts by Democratic senators, Bondi consistently evaded the direct question, reinforcing her alignment with Trump’s narrative.

Historical Context and Implications

Wagner provides background on Bondi’s role in the Trump administration, highlighting her pivotal involvement in challenging the 2020 election results in Pennsylvania. Her reluctance to condemn the Big Lie publicly raises concerns about her commitment to DOJ’s independence and the rule of law.

Expert Commentary with David Rhode

Joining the discussion is David Rhode, NBC News National Security Editor and author of Where Tyranny Grew: The Justice Department, the FBI, and the War on Democracy.

• David Rhode (34:09): Rhode criticizes Bondi’s evasive responses, stating, "She was clearly lying. She wasn't going to cloth, she was not going to say Joe Biden won the 2020 election." He underscores the potential threats to judicial independence and the rule of law posed by Bondi’s nomination, questioning how she will balance loyalty to Trump with her duties as Attorney General.

Concerns for the Department of Justice

Rhode elaborates on the challenges Bondi will face in maintaining DOJ’s integrity amid Trump’s expectations to pursue political adversaries without factual basis. He draws parallels to previous administrations where Attorney Generals struggled to remain impartial under political pressure.

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Corporate Rollbacks of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) Initiatives

Shift in Corporate Policies

The episode transitions to the corporate response to the incoming Trump administration, focusing on the widespread rollback of DEI programs. Major companies like Meta, Walmart, Boeing, and John Deere have dismantled their DEI initiatives in anticipation of aligning with Trump's policy preferences.

• Meta’s Position (40:01): Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg declared that DEI policies had "gone too far and neutered the corporate environment," leading to the elimination of Meta’s entire diversity team.

Costco’s Defiance

Contrasting the trend, Costco remains steadfast in maintaining its DEI programs. The company’s board of directors argues that diversity is essential for attracting talent and fostering innovation, emphasizing their commitment to respect and inclusion as fundamental to their business model.

• Costco’s Statement: "Our commitment to an enterprise rooted in respect and inclusion is appropriate and necessary."

Analysis with David Rhode

David Rhode comments on the cultural shifts within corporations, noting a backlash against what he perceives as the overreach of DEI initiatives. He critiques the demonization of traditional values, arguing that the swift removal of DEI programs undermines efforts to create inclusive workplaces.

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Conclusion

In this episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, listeners receive an in-depth analysis of pivotal events shaping the political and corporate landscape as the U.S. transitions to a second Trump administration. From the fragile peace in Gaza and the contentious nomination of Pam Bondi to Biden’s dire warnings about oligarchy and the retreat from DEI initiatives in major corporations, Wagner provides a nuanced exploration of the challenges and implications for American democracy and global stability.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Trump (00:55): "This epic ceasefire agreement could have only happened as a result of our historic victory in November."
• Joe Biden (02:58): "We have been speaking as one team... because that's what American presidents do."
• Ben Rhodes (04:22): "It's a convergence of a lot of things, including the incoming Trump administration."
• Eamonn Mohideen (08:26): "Hamas has managed to recruit more militants since October 7th in this war than it has before."
• Claire McCaskill (19:34): "We have way too many people in America that are only trying to find affirmation and not information."
• Pam Bondi (30:04): "Joe Biden is the president of the United States."
• David Rhode (34:09): "She's supposed to have facts to actually convict people in court, and they don't exist."

Timestamp References:

• 00:55, 02:58, 04:22, 06:19, 08:26, 19:34, 21:23, 29:36, 34:09, 40:01

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the intricate dynamics between political maneuvers, international conflicts, and corporate policy shifts, all underscored by expert analyses and critical commentary.

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

There are still some significant details to be worked out, but as of today, negotiators for Hamas and Israel have reached a ceasefire agreement that commits to returning the remaining Israeli hostages and ultimately ending the 15 month long war in Gaza that has killed at least 46,000 people. People took to the streets in both Israel and Gaza to celebrate the deal after it was announced. The agreement will still need to be ratified by the Israeli Cabinet before it can be implemented, and the deal, as outlined so is nearly identical to the one outlined by the Biden administration last May. It is set to play out in three phases. The first phase will take place over the next six weeks, beginning Sunday, with a full and complete ceasefire between the two sides. That will be followed by Hamas releasing dozens of Israeli hostages, including women, the elderly and the wounded, while Israel will release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. NBC News reports that two of the Israeli hostages released in the first round will be Americans Sagi decalchen and Keith Siegel. During this phase, Israeli forces are expected to withdraw from populated areas of Gaza. Humanitarian aid is expected to surge into Gaza, and Palestinians should be allowed to return to their home neighborhoods. Phase two of this deal will be dedicated to reaching a permanent end to the war. And during this phase, the two sides will negotiate an exchange for the remaining hostages who were not released in phase one. And all Israeli forces are expected to withdraw from Gaza now in phase three of the agreement. NBC News reports that the remains of the hostages who died in Hamas's custody are expected to be returned to their families and a, quote, major reconstruction plan is expected to begin. So there is a lot to be determined here, but it is still potentially a major breakthrough in a bloody and protracted war. Less than half an hour after negotiations made this deal, negotiators made this deal public. President Elect Trump claimed credit for the agreement, posting on his social media site, this epic ceasefire agreement could have only happened as a result of our historic victory in November. We have achieved so much without even being in the White House. Trump had been publicly threatening negotiators to come to a deal, saying in a press conference last week that there will be hell to pay if the hostages were not released. Before he took office tonight, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called President Trump. President Elect Trump to thank him before calling actual President Biden, the man whose administration negotiated this deal and the person who is still the President of the United States of America. Today, President Biden emphasized his administration's lead in the negotiations, but he also noted the cooperation of Trump's team, perhaps in an effort to keep the incoming president from blowing up the deal altogether.

[Joe Biden]

I'd also note this deal was developed and negotiated under my administration, but its terms will be implemented for the most part by the next administration. In these past few days, we've been speaking as one team. I told my team to coordinate closely with the incoming team to make sure we're all speaking with the same voice, because that's what American presidents do.

[Alex Wagner]

At the end of that same appearance, President Biden responded to exactly one question from a reporter, and this was it. Thank you, books credit for this, Mr. President. You or Trump?

[Joe Biden]

Is that a joke? Oh.

[Alex Wagner]

Joining me now are Ben Rhodes, former deputy National Security Adviser under President Obama, and Amen Mohuddin, host of Amen here on msnbc. Guys, thank you both for joining me here tonight. I'm so thrilled that I can get both of your thoughts. Ben, just on the sort of stagecraft of this announcement. I am very curious to know how you're reading the back and forth here. I mean, President Biden gave his farewell address this evening, and he made sure to talk about how the fact. The fact was that this was a deal his administration negotiated, suggesting that Trump kind of came in at the the end. How relevant is the fact that Trump is coming into office in five days to the agreement that we have on the table today?

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, Alex, it has to be relevant. I mean, it's glaringly obvious that the timeline is somewhat tied to the fact that we're going through a presidential transition. The reason, you know, that is because this deal has been on the table since the spring. It's really not materially different than what was on the table in the spring. And I think what we can take away, obviously, is relief and assuming this is implemented, joy for the hostages who will be released and reunited with their families, and for the people of Gaza who've just been living in hell on earth and might finally get some aid and some relief and ultimately some reconstruction. But I think in terms of the timing, what's happened here is you had a convergence of interests between Biden and Trump. Biden obviously wanted to get this done while he was in office. They've been trying to negotiate precisely these terms for the better part of this year. And Donald Trump wanted this off his plate. He didn't want to come into office with an ongoing conflict in Gaza, and pretty clearly he was weighing in. And I've talked to people in governments, not just the US Government, but people in the region who've said that that's the message they were getting privately as well as Publicly from Trump and I. I mean, Netanyahu, he's sitting there and he has ensured his own political survival, frankly, by the perpetuation of this war. And he was gonna have some trouble with the right wing of his coalition that does not want any peace. But I think he could point to Trump and say, hey, look, we got Trump coming in and I gotta do this. And so I think it was a convergence of a lot of things, including the incoming Trump administration.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Eamonn, I'm very struck by some statements made this evening on Fox News by Trump's incoming national security adviser. This is on Fox. I think we have this on. If we can play it right now.

[Ben Rhodes]

We'Ve made it very clear to the Israelis, and I want the people of Israel to hear me on this.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

If they need to go back in, we're with them.

[Ben Rhodes]

If Hamas doesn't live up to the terms of this agreement, we are with them. This Hamas is not going to continue as a military entity and it certainly.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Is not going to govern Gaza.

[Alex Wagner]

Bret, want to be optimistic about this thing, ending this horrible war, but you hear these kind of caveats that are emerging less than 24 hours. There's Donald Trump and his involvement in this, the fact that he's going to be the one to actually implement this. How are you thinking about this agreement?

[Eamonn Mohideen]

I'm thinking about it in a few different ways. First, I'm looking at it on the ground in the immediate reaction for the people of Gaza. The people of Gaza are celebrating today. No one can deny that there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of grief. There's been a tremendous amount of loss. But I'm centering it around their reaction for what this means. And if the killing can stop for a day, for two, for 42 days, and build on that, then it is a very positive day. That's the first and immediate concern that I was looking at as a journalist. But more importantly beyond that is how long is this actually going to be sustainable? And there are some things that you're going to come up, you're going to rub up against that are just going to be undeniable. The incoming National Security Advisor, or. Sorry, the who we just heard from there.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes. Mike Waltz, incoming National Security Advisor.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Correct. I was thinking of Steve Wyckoff, who's in the region, but I'm thinking about Mike Wallace, who's saying that you are not going to be able to remove Hamas from Gaza. So he is saying Hamas is not going to govern Gaza, but you're not going to be able to make that determination. Unless you say, well, what are you going to do with Hamas, whose ideology exists, who has been able to replenish itself, been able to constitute itself? We just heard from Antony Blinken yesterday who told us that Hamas has managed to recruit more militants since October 7th in this war than it has. So America's telling the world than before. Than before. So America's telling the world two things. It's saying, under this administration at least, the war must go on to destroy Hamas. But at the same time, as long as the war goes on, Hamas is still recruiting militants and nobody has been able to square.

[Alex Wagner]

They don't understand the interlinkage between those two things.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Correct. And yet this is what Antony Blinken was telling, the Secretary of State was telling us yesterday in his farewell address. And here comes the incoming administration, who is going to deal with that reality. Hamas can have all of its leaders killed. And yet here we are, just after killing Haniyeh and Yahya Sinwar and all the others, has managed to create an immediate new generation that has just entered.

[Alex Wagner]

Into a negotiation with Israel with a robust recruitment apparatus. I mean, so, Ben, what is your level of optimism? I mean, we know what phase one is. And I think to Eamon's point, it should be celebrated that there could be a tentative peace, that lives could be saved in this peaceful period, that hostages could be returned. But in terms of your level of optimism about this holding through stages two and three, which seem tricky even on paper, to say nothing of the realities that Eamonn just outlined. Where are you on this?

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, I wouldn't say I'm optimistic, I'm hopeful, let's put it that way. I mean, look, the relief for the people of Gaza is extraordinary. And you see it on the streets. And just getting aid in just having some peace for some period of time is transformational from what they've been through. However, there are massive questions, Alex and Amy and teed up some of them. Who is going to be responsible for the governance of Gaza? Who is going to be responsible for the security of Gaza? Hamas is not destroyed, as was the stated objective of the Israeli military campaign. There's still Hamas negotiated this. They agreed to it. Right. And so one concern you might have looking at this situation for Palestinians is hostages are returned. And then you have a right wing of Netanyahu's coalition that does not want this deal. I mean, they're criticizing this deal. And you could see a resumption of military operations in Gaza once the hostages are out. And then it continues. Even if that doesn't happen, you still have a long reconstruction effort, and there's not an end to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. You have Gaza and rubble, and you've got the west bank, where you've had a very volatile situation over the course of the war since October 7th. So there are huge issues awaiting the Trump administration. There's a possibility that if this holds long enough, that reconstruction can start. Maybe the Gulf countries come in. There have been talk of potentially Arab forces that can help provide security, something that is in the way of a resumption of hostilities between Hamas and Israel. That's what you want to get to. You want to get to a place where this thing can't just explode again. That's possible. There's a pathway to that. But we should be clear that there are many things that could derail this. And then even if you get there, you still have all kinds of question marks about both the future of Gaza and the West Bank.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Ynet, which is an Israeli media outlet, reported on Monday that President Trump, according to a source familiar with the details, has already promised Prime Minister Netanyahu and Minister Ron Dermer that if they agree to a ceasefire and the withdrawal of IDF Israeli Defense Forces from the Gaza Strip, Trump will support Israel retroactively if it decides to return to fighting and violate the ceasefire.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

You know, we're rightfully focusing on what Trump has brought to this equation in the peace deal, or, sorry, the ceasefire deal. I think what is also important to notice is what the Prime Minister of Israel has done over the past several months in being able to game American politicians to get to this point. Benjamin Netanyahu is a shrewd and smart politician. That is undeniable. He could have delivered this victory to Joe Biden eight months ago, prior to a US election in which the US Candidate for the Democratic Party, the Vice President, could have been running on a cease fire deal. He did not do that. And he did not do that by design, not because he simply was sitting back there and saying, that deal is not good. Nothing has changed in the past eight months, dramatically in terms of the deal.

[Alex Wagner]

Only American politics have changed.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Exactly. And so my point to that is it is hard to imagine that the Prime Minister of Israel has entered into this cease fire deal without knowing that on the back end of it, down the road, there is going to be some chips to be cashed in with the Trump administration. Now, could that be the desire to annex the West Bank? Could that be the desire to repopulate northern Gaza with Israeli settlers? Could that be a strike on Iran that would require American military involvement and direct military cover for Israel if Iran gets struck. And all of these factors are now on the table for the Israeli prime minister to actually use against the administration of Donald Trump to say, hey, look, we gave you a win on day one. We released the hostages, we entered into this deal. You now are beholden to us and what we want to do with some of these issues across the region.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, and it's unclear how much it's even an issue for Trump to be beholden to those desires. Right. It's not clear that he wouldn't acquiesce to them willingly.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

I mean, we have people in the incoming Trump administration who have made clear Mike Huckabee has said that he wants or supports the annexation, as he calls it, Judea and Samaria, which is the West Bank. Others in the administration have favored regime change in Iran for years. For them, that is like the holy grail of regime change in the region. People have been salivating about that in the last couple of months because Iran is at its most weakened position. So you have a very combustible situation, a very shrewd Israeli politician who knows how to manipulate the American political system to his advantage, as he has done time and time again.

[Alex Wagner]

Ben, I have to ask this because we're in a kind of elegiac mode tonight, given the president's farewell address. And I wonder, he's going out with this deal. That's the sort of, I think what he would say is a feather in his cap. This is a mixed metaphor, but it's a complicated, complicated ending, or it's the most positive ending you could ask for in a very complicated situation. What do you think of his legacy on this war?

[Ben Rhodes]

Look, I'm glad again that hostages are being released. I'm glad that the people of Gaza have some peace. Think of what has happened. You know, this is not, I mean, it's worth celebrating the deal, but it's not worth celebrating a policy. I don't think, if you ask the Biden team in the early days of this that they thought that it would take until January of 2025 for there to be a deal. This is not the timeline that they were pursuing. And frankly, I think the legacy is there was unconditional support in terms of military support. Every bomb dropped was dropped by an American plane. 2000 pound bombs dropped in refugee camps were American bombs. Vetoes at the Security Council. Joe Biden's legacy is that he gave unconditional support for a war that destroyed Gaza and some people support that. But the reality is, I think it's. Look, maybe we're going to learn more, by the way, about the destruction. If journalists are allowed to get into Gaza, which they've not been allowed in since October 7, I think the death toll is going to go up, the destruction reports are going to go up. So I'm glad this happened. But the reality is the timing kind of tells the story here. I think Eamonn's exactly right. I think Netanyahu played this out until after the election, played it out until he was in a stronger political position. He's in a stronger political situation in part because of what's happened in Lebanon, where they've made serious gains against Hezbollah and you have a new government. I don't think Joe Biden was controlling events. I just don't. I don't think he was kind of in command of the diplomacy here. I think they negotiated these terms, but these terms, along with Qatar and others, but these are the obvious terms of a ceasefire. Sure, there are particularities about whether Israel has a presence for a period of time and the Philadelphia corridor, which is the border with Egypt, but those are technicalities. The basic perpetuation of the war was Bibi Netanyahu's decision backed by Joe Biden. And I think that will be the legacy of this more than this deal.

[Alex Wagner]

Just to remind Everybody, Eamon, over 47,000 people killed in Gaza, 1600, more than 1600 in Lebanon, and of course, 1,200 killed in Israel. The Lancet, a medical journal, estimates the death toll in Gaza is likely 40% higher than 47,000.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

And to add very quickly to Ben's point about the legacy of this war, Christopher Wray, the outgoing FBI director, and the US Intelligence community assess that ISIS has been able to recruit based off of the Gaza war, you know, thousands if not more radicalized individuals across the region. And you're getting a Trump administration that is contemplating right now with a new change in Syria, withdrawing US Troops that have been involved in the fight against isis. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying to you, you're seeing the legacy of this war. It is going to have ripple effects across the region for years, if not generations to come. Not just outside of Gaza, but even inside of Gaza, you have a new generation of Palestinians who are going to be scarred by this war. And we have heard time and time again of people inside Gaza who have vowed revenge for what they have had to endure over the past 15 months. And that's a scary thought. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Ben Rhodes, thank you for your time and wisdom this evening. Amon Mohadin, it is always great to have you on to talk about these issues. Eamonn's show, of course, airs weekend nights starting at 7pm Eastern right here on MSNBC. More ahead this evening, including 2020 election denialism on full display today in the nomination hearing for Trump's pick for attorney general. But first, President Biden's farewell address to the nation was really just an ominous warning about our democracy. Claire McCaskill and Jonathan Martin join me on that coming up next. Stay with.

[Joe Biden]

Today. An oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power and influence that literally threatens our entire democracy, our basic rights and freedoms. And a fair shot for everyone to get ahead. We see the consequences all across America, and we've seen it before. More than a century ago. The American people stood up to the robber barons back then and busted the trust.

[Alex Wagner]

Tonight, in his farewell address to the nation, President Biden warned about powerful forces that threaten the idea of America and democracy itself. An emerging American oligarchy was just one of several concerns the president outlined days before he departs political life after five days in public service and hands the keys to the White House to Donald Trump. Joining me now to discuss are Claire McCaskill, former Democratic senator from Missouri and current MSNBC political analyst, and Jonathan Martin, senior political columnist for Politico. Guys, thanks for being here. Claire. I think, you know, there was some expectation that Biden would tick through a list of his accomplishments, which are many, and he did a little bit of that. But I was struck by how dark, how ominous this warning was to the American public on his way out the door. I did not think I would hear the phrase American oligarchy from Joe Biden's mouth. What did you think?

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, I think he has really had to deal, more so than any other president with the hangover of misinformation and a lack of factual basis for American policymaking. We have way too many people in America that are only trying to find affirmation and not information. And I just want everybody to remember when they look on that inaugural podium on the day he's sworn in, a guy who supposedly is all about a populist movement and helping the little guy and who's been screwed over by the swamp in the deep state, he's going to have three guys sitting together holding hands that are worth a trillion dollars. Alex, the three of them are worth a trillion dollars. I mean, that's half of the money that musk is trying to cut out of the budget. That's what they're worth. I mean, it is astounding the wealth that has been hyper centralized in our information sources. They own newspapers, they own social media. They control a lot of our lives. And once everybody gives up fact checking, if the only people left are fact checking our editors in just a few news outlets, we're in more trouble than I think people realize. I think that's what Joe Biden was trying to do tonight. I thought it was strong and bold. I was glad he didn't tick off all the list. I was afraid, like you, that's what he would do.

[Alex Wagner]

I can hear you saying, yeah, J Mart and I want to get to you because I want to play a little bit more sound, getting right at what Claire is talking about, the misinformation and the erosion of the fourth estate. Let's take a listen to what Biden had to say. This is the piece of sound. 1B control room.

[Joe Biden]

Americans are being buried under an avalanche of misinformation and disinformation enabling the abuse of power. The free press is crumbling. Editors are disappearing. Social media is giving up on fact checking. The truth is smothered by lies told for power and for profit. We must hold the social platforms accountable to protect our children, our families and our very democracy from the abuse of power.

[Alex Wagner]

What did you think when you heard that?

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Jmart well, let me say two things. Number one, the politics of it. He's smart to change the topic from the fact that he's handing over the presidency to Donald Trump in part because of his own choices. He ran again for reelection when he shouldn't have. And Trump's revival is in part on his hands and he's changing the topic. That's savvy politically on the merits. He's totally right. And he's taking a page from Eisenhower. Both of you guys know this. When Eisenhower left the White House in 1960, he warned of the military industrial complex. Biden is taking a page from history and is basically repurposing that warning about the tech industrial complex. And he's absolutely accurate on the merits of look no further than what happened last fall in North Carolina, the belief that that hurricane was somehow bioengineered. Look no further than what happened the last couple of weeks, Alex. With regard to the fires in California, the misinformation about that, it is a really sobering moment when we in this country are so susceptible to believe this made up misinformation BS about these tragic events. And it's hard to figure out what is truth and what false. And I think the President is right to raise it, he's right to address it. And yes, it is smart politics of him personally. To change the topic, Claire.

[Alex Wagner]

And J. Martin, I'll give you a chance to respond to this as well, too. I am less inclined to. I mean, I do think, yes, it may be smart politically, but I would imagine that part of this, this wasn't about Donald Trump. Not just because Joe Biden's ticket effectively lost to Trump, but I think, I think Biden is thinking deeply about how Trump got reelected. Right. And these are systemic problems, deep failings within the rubric of democracy that he wants to call the American citizenry's attention to. Because if we don't start paying attention to it, we lose our democracy as we know it. I was shocked by the fact that he called out the Supreme Court in this set of remarks as well. Claire, I want to play that piece of sound for anybody who might have missed that.

[Joe Biden]

We need to enact an 18 year time limit. Term limit, time and term for the strongest ethics and the strongest ethics reforms for a Supreme Court. We need to amend the Constitution to make clear that no president, no president is immune from crimes that he or she commits while in office. President's power is not limited. It's not absolutely.

[Alex Wagner]

There was a time, I'm old enough to remember when Joe Biden would not say a bad word about the Supreme Court. Here he is calling for term limits, code of ethics and excoriating one of their biggest rulings in the last year, the presidential immunity ruling.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah. And guess what? The American people want term limits on the Supreme Court. Frankly, the American people want term limits on everybody in power. I'm not always sure that's a good idea. But once again, politically, an ethics reform at the Supreme Court. Yeah, check. American people want that. Term limits on the Supreme Court. Yeah. Yes, the American people want that. And here. And this is what happens. And this is what's going to be really interesting. You're going to see a giant train wreck between these billionaire bros that are taking over the West Wing, that are taking over government as a shadow government without any real authority or power. They've not been elected to anything. They're going to be sitting up there on that podium representing to America. Hey, you may think Donald Trump is taking the oath, but see us over here, we really control your information. We control the satellites, we control who's going to space and how. We control a lot of things in the Defense Department and how that's going to train wreck with these populous things he campaigned on. I mean, they're going to come into office and the first thing they're going to do is take care of these guys tax cuts. So it's going to be really interesting to see how Trump manages the message, the narrative around this, because he's lassoed these guys, but I'm not sure he's riding them. I think they're riding him.

[Alex Wagner]

Jmar, you know, there's a lot of consternation inside Democratic circles. Where does the party go from here? What should their marching orders be? And I almost thought this was like an outline, as Claire says. It's like, okay, you want to talk populism? What does it mean to have Elon Musk, the world's richest man, literally negotiating foreign policy on calls with, like, foreign leaders on the dais at the inauguration functioning as a shadow president? You want to talk populism, you want to talk the voice of the people? What does it mean to have unelected judicial officials serving life lifetime terms, making massively significant decisions about American life and remaining completely unaccountable? I actually thought, you know, as far as a blueprint for what issues Democrats might want to focus on in the coming years, it wasn't a bad one.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Well, first of all, Alex, I too was surprised that Joe Biden of all people would call for term limits on the Supreme Court because he was so reluctant in the 2020 campaign to even touch the Supreme Court and had to be pushed to even create a sort of faux commission to address court reform, which he obviously ignored their recommendation. So that's a huge step. Yeah, look, it's obvious there's going to be a thousand op eds, a thousand essays, 1,000 more panel discussions, guys, in the next two and a half, three years about how Democrats come back. The Democratic reform. The Democratic reform is simply this. You point the finger at the folks who are in charge for misgovernment, misrule excesses and incompetence, and you win because of that. The reason Claire McCaskill, in part, besides her deaf political skills, won the Senate seat in 2006 is because you had a Republican president who was deeply unpopular in 06 and 08 and opened the door for Democrats to come back. That is the same formula that I think is going to happen this time. Yes, you have a populist agenda in tension with a oligarchic support and folks who are in your donor class who are going to be pushing, pushing you toward an agenda that is not populist. If Democrats cannot hit that big, fast softball down the middle of the plate. They ought to hang it up.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. I mean, at the risk of sounding like a Cassandra, I do think the external factors and the external realities are so much more dire than they were I don't know, in 2006. And I would never underestimate Claire McCaskill sheer gumption in terms of getting herself elected to anything. But I do think, you know, know, we're in, we're swimming in the deep end right now. You have to leave it there. Claire McCaskill, Jonathan Martin, thank you both for joining me tonight. Really appreciate that. Appreciate you guys. Coming up, as major corporations scale back their DEI initiatives amid pressure from conservatives, at least one major big box retailer is standing firm. It's not McDonald's, I'll tell you that. It's not McDonald's. That's coming up. But first, Trump's nominee for attorney general, a pebble of the big lie in 2020, faced heated questions from Democrats on Capitol Hill today. How it went coming up next. Today at her confirmation hearing, Pam Bondi, Trump's nominee to be attorney general of the United States, had an incredibly hard time giving a straight answer to a very straightforward question.

[Joe Biden]

Are you prepared to say today, under.

[Alex Wagner]

Oath, without reservation, that Donald Trump lost the presidential contest to Joe Biden in 2020?

[Pam Bondi]

Ranking Member Durbin, President Biden is the president of the United States.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

You have to be able to say that Donald Trump lost the 2020 election. You dodged that question when you were asked directly by Senator Durbin, who won.

[Alex Wagner]

The 2020 presidential election.

[Pam Bondi]

Joe Biden is the president of the United States.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Donald Trump, you lost the 2020 election. Can you tell us that here today?

[Pam Bondi]

Senator, what I can tell you is I will never play politics. You're trying to engage me in a gotcha.

[Alex Wagner]

A gotcha. She called the question, did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election a gotcha for almost anyone, anyone else in the world. That is actually a pretty easy question to answer. Yes, Donald Trump lost the 2020 election. But for Pam Bondi, the question is tricky. You might not remember this, but before Rudy Giuliani stole the spotlight with his dripping hair dye and his press conference at Four Seasons Total Landscaping, before that happened, Pam Bondi was the face of Trump's legal challenges over the 2020 election. In fact, the main reason Giuliani ended up giving that infamous press conference outside a random landscaping company was because Pam Bondi's press conference in the middle of Philadelphia two days early earlier was literally drowned out by protesters. You couldn't actually hear what she was saying. But Bondi was a central part of Trump's efforts to contest the results of that election, and particularly in the state of Pennsylvania, where Bondi was one of the key Trump world figures pushing the big lie. Here was Pam Bondi, days after the 2020 election, claiming there had been fraud in Pennsylvania. Now, pay attention to the faces of the Fox News hosts here, because clearly even they don't believe her.

[Pam Bondi]

We do have evidence of cheating, and I'll talk about that in a minute. These fake ballots that are coming in late. And back to the observation, they're not letting us watch the process.

[Ben Rhodes]

Pam, did you just say fake ballots?

[Pam Bondi]

There could be.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Have you heard stories of, you know.

[Ben Rhodes]

Ballots that are fake? And if so, just tell us what you know.

[Pam Bondi]

Well, we know that ballots have been dumped. There were ballots that were found early on. We've heard that people were receiving ballots that, that were dead.

[Alex Wagner]

Just anyway. Now, the very fact that Pam Bondi pushed the lie that there was foul play in the 2020 election, just that very fact alone should be enough to disqualify her from being the nation's top cop. But today, not only did Bondi refuse to say Donald Trump lost the 2020 election, she also continued four years later to claim that there was some kind of foul play in the state of Pennsylvania.

[Pam Bondi]

I accept, of course, that Joe Biden is President of the United States. But what I can tell you is what I saw firsthand when I went to Pennsylvania as an advocate for the campaign. I was an advocate for the campaign and I was on the ground in Pennsylvania and I saw many things there. But do I accept the results? Of course I do.

[Alex Wagner]

I saw many things there. Sure you did. For most people, asking who won the 2020 election is a fact based question. But when it comes to Donald Trump, it is a question of loyalty. Are you willing to lie to the American people, embarrassing yourself over and over and over again and endangering democracy, all because it's what Donald Trump wants you to do? It is a litmus test. And by not giving a straight answer on the question of whether or not Trump lost the 2020 election. Well, Pam Bondi passed that test. But believe it or not, that was not the most concerning question Pam Bondi refused to answer today. We'll get to that coming up.

[Pam Bondi]

When Republicans take back the White House and we will be back in there in 18 months or less, you know what's going to happen. The Department of Justice, the prosecutors will be prosecuted, the bad ones, the investigators will be investigated in 2023.

[Alex Wagner]

Pam Bondi promised to investigate the investigators today at her confirmation hearing, Democratic senators pressed for answers about whether Bondi still held those views as President elect Trump's nominee to run the Department of Justice.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

The president has said Jack Smith should go to jail. Will you investigate Jack Smith?

[Pam Bondi]

Senator, I haven't seen the file, I haven't seen the investigation. I haven't looked at anything.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Are you aware of a factual predicate to investigate Jack Smith, yes or no?

[Pam Bondi]

Senator, what I'm hearing on the news.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Is are you aware of a do.

[Pam Bondi]

I know if you reluctant? I have not looked.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

You seem reluctant to answer a simple question. Let me ask you a different simple question. The president also wants to jail Liz Cheney sitting here today. Are you aware of any factual basis to investigate Liz Cheney, yes or no?

[Pam Bondi]

Senator, that's a hypothetical and I'm not going to answer that.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

No, it's not a hypothetical.

[Alex Wagner]

It actually, it's not a hypothetical. Joining me now is NBC News national Security editor and author of Where Tyranny, the Justice Department, the FBI and the War on Democracy, the Great David Rhode. David, we spent a little time in the block before this talking about Pam Bonney's actions in the past, but her sort of marching orders for the future, if you're listening to that, I think should maybe send a chill up the spine of anybody in the Department of Justice and people interested in the law. What did you make of those responses there, repeated questioning from Adam Schiff?

[David Rhode]

She's, you know, we talked about it. She's talking to an audience of one. And I had that feeling also with the Hegseth confirmation hearing yesterday. She in particular was trying to be very careful and kept trying to avoid this. But she was clearly lying. She wasn't going to cloth, she was not going to say Joe Biden won the 2020 election. She was not going to rule out prosecuting anyone. So you saw that over and over again where she's somehow trying to walk this walk that will keep the president supporting her but not get her into a deeper trouble in terms of its, you know, it was just, it's an amazing testament to our politics today.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And I guess the question is what does it suggest about her fealty towards Trump as attorney general? I want to play another piece of sound where that sense of loyalty is even more pronounced. It's an exchange between Ted Cruz and Pam Bondi today. Let's take a listen.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

The last four years, we've seen Donald.

[David Rhode]

Trump indicted and prosecuted not once, not.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Twice, not three times, but four separate times.

[Pam Bondi]

And two assassination attempts.

[Eamonn Mohideen]

Senator, these prosecutions were brought because partisan prosecutors were terrified that the American people would do exactly what they did in November of 2024 and vote to reelect.

[Pam Bondi]

Donald J. Trump by 77.3% million Americans. 77.3 million Americans.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, did they rehearse it like it was just. I've never seen anything like that where you have literally a kind of a call and respons between a Republican senator and a nominee, all in service of.

[David Rhode]

The President elect's ego, particularly for Attorney general. And since Watergate, the Attorney General is supposed to be independent. You have to have a law enforcement official that's doing investigations based on facts, not on what the president who appointed them wants them to do. And the problem for her is that Trump, whether he believes it or it's just politics, he wants Liz Cheney investigated, He wants Jack Smith investigated. She's on a mission impossible. Jeff Sessions had the same problem. Fire Mueller. And he wouldn't do it, and he was forced out. Eventually. Bill Barr Investigate the 2020 election. Back up my fraud claims. Bill Barr doesn't do it and he's forced out. So people who worked in the first Trump administration, the Justice Department, have told me this is the conundrum. She's supposed to have facts to actually convict people in court, and they don't exist. This is what. What current people say, Biden administration, people in the Justice Department. So we'll see how she tries to navigate this for the next several years. But it's gonna be difficult. How does she please Donald Trump and have facts in a court of law?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. The pressure on her is gonna be enormous. What strikes me also in this moment is the degree to which it is a fait accompli, that she will be confirmed. Right. Democrats are doing their best to draw attention to her controversial positions from 2020 and her positions now, or at least her sort of worldview as it comes to an enemy' punishment of political adversaries. But by virtue of the fact that she's not Matt Gaetz and that she's actually a lawyer, it seems like that's enough. The bar here is so extraordinarily low.

[David Rhode]

And what was fascinating was that the name that kept coming up in the hearing today was Kash Patel.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[David Rhode]

Who does have an enemy's list, who published a book in 2023 that listed 60 people that were part of what he said was the executive branch deep state. And he talked over and over again in this book. I read his whole book about the criminals in the deep state. That there's the secret plot by bureaucrats. Look, Ronald Reagan would complain that too many people in the government, too many, you know, the government's too big. This is completely different. This is these bureaucrats are plotting treason to undermine the president and they need to be criminally investigated. So again, she's in this hot seat. What will she be able to deliver, you know, what will be enough for President Trump?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, and I would imagine, you know, you report so essentially on the Department of Justice. I cannot imagine what the mood inside is there given the fact that she's already proclaimed, we're going to investigate the investigators. David Rhode, thank you for coming and talking with me about yet another extraordinary day in the Trump confirmation news cycle. Thanks for your time.

[David Rhode]

Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

Still ahead tonight, as major companies continue to roll back their diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives before Trump takes office next week, there is at least one company that is bucking that trend. Which company is it? H H, look at our graphics. Just tell. Just giving it up early. But stay tuned. Stay with us. There's a lot more on this next.

[David Rhode]

I think a lot of the corporate world is, is, like, pretty culturally neutered. The kind of masculine energy I think is, is good. And obviously, you know, society has plenty of that. But, but I think corporate culture was really trying to get away from it. It's one thing to say we want to be kind of like welcoming and make a good environment for everyone. And I think it's another to basically say that masculinity is bad. And I just think we kind of swung culturally to that part of the kind of the spectrum where it's all like, okay, masculinity is toxic. We have to get rid of it completely.

[Alex Wagner]

That was Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg trashing diversity, equity and inclusion policies, claiming that they've gone too far and neutered the corporate environment. This comes as Zuckerberg just axed DEI programs at his company Meta. Last week, the company got rid of its entire diversity team and ended all equity and inclusion programs. Fellow tech titans Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk have also recently renounced diversity programs as they curry favor with the incoming president, who, of course, railed against DEI initiatives on the campaign trail. It may come as no surprise that all three tech moguls will sit on stage with Trump at his inauguration next week. Now, it should be said a number of companies have been rolling back diversity programs ahead of Trump's second term. Walmart, Boeing, John Deere and others have all rolled back their DEI efforts. But there is one notable exception, Costco. That company is not only keeping its DEI programs, Costco is defending those programs as good for business. According to Costco's board of directors, diversity helps attract talent and also innovate products. In a note urging shareholders to reject a proposal that would undermine dei, the board of directors wrote, our commitment to an enterprise rooted in respect and inclusion is appropriate and necessary. If you like that. Also keep in mind that as an added benefit, you can also buy over 150 Oreos at Costco for under $15. That's our show for tonight.