Social Insecurity

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Social Insecurity" from Trumpland with Alex Wagner

Podcast Information:

• Title: Trumpland with Alex Wagner
• Host: Alex Wagner, MSNBC
• Episode: Social Insecurity
• Release Date: April 17, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Social Insecurity," host Alex Wagner delves into the pressing issues surrounding the Social Security Administration (SSA) under the Trump administration. The episode highlights personal struggles, administrative chaos, and expert insights, painting a comprehensive picture of the current state of Social Security in America.

The Mistaken Death Declaration: Ned Johnson's Story

The episode opens with the harrowing experience of Ned Johnson, an 82-year-old Seattle resident, who was mistakenly declared dead by Bank of America, leading to severe financial and personal repercussions.

Ned Johnson (00:55): "My wife got the first notice from Bank of America with their condolences over my death."

Two days later, Social Security deducted $5,200 from their account based on this erroneous declaration, thrusting Johnson into a bureaucratic nightmare.

Ned Johnson (02:03): "I was ushered into the room by three armed guards and sat with some 50 odd people... I realized that I was never going to get to the front of the line to see one of about three or four caseworkers."

Despite finally reaching an agent and starting the process to correct his status, Johnson faced significant delays, loss of healthcare, a plummeting credit score, and ongoing uncertainty about his benefits.

The Importance of Social Security in America

Social Security is a cornerstone of financial stability for millions of Americans. Over 73 million individuals receive benefits monthly, with the program providing an average of $20,000 annually. It serves retirees, disabled individuals, and their families, making it indispensable, especially for the elderly population.

Threats to Social Security Under the Trump Administration

Under President Donald Trump's administration, Social Security has come under intense scrutiny and pressure. Criticisms have emerged from various quarters, including high-profile figures like Elon Musk, who labeled Social Security as the "biggest Ponzi scheme of all time" during a conversation with Joe Rogan (04:10).

Trump has publicly vowed to preserve Social Security but has simultaneously pushed for measures that critics argue destabilize the program:

• Stricter Identity Verification: The administration proposed tighter identity verification to combat fraud, making it necessary for beneficiaries to prove their identity in person if they cannot do so online (04:43).

• Office Closures and Workforce Cuts: Plans to close numerous SSA offices nationwide and lay off thousands of workers have been implemented, exacerbating access issues.

• Communication Shifts: Reports suggested that SSA would shift official communications exclusively to X (formerly Twitter), a claim the White House has denied (05:19).

These actions have led to increased confusion, longer wait times, and heightened frustration among beneficiaries.

Rennie Glasgow (04:43): "They're trying to buy people out, use tax-paying money to say, hey, why don't you leave? Go find a more productive job."

Responses and Reactions from the Public and Officials

The administration's moves have sparked significant backlash:

• Public Protests: Activists like Susan Fountain organized rallies to protest the perceived threats to Social Security.

  Susan Fountain (06:07): "I just wanna be able to document if this system goes down... So I downloaded and I printed everything because I'm going to the bank right after this rally to put it in my safe deposit box."

• Political Reactions: Former President Biden publicly criticized the administration's approach to Social Security, emphasizing its importance and denouncing attempts to undermine it (07:00).

• Union Perspectives: Members of the American Federation of Government Employees voiced their concerns about the administration's impact on SSA operations.

Inside the Social Security Administration: Employee Perspectives

Ned Johnson interviews several SSA employees, including James Roosevelt, the former Associate Commissioner and grandson of President Franklin D. Roosevelt, providing an insider's view of the turmoil within the agency.

James Roosevelt (11:23): "It has been an everyday nightmare. Today we are in a free fall. Individuals are hurting. It's extremely stressful."

Key issues highlighted by SSA employees:

• Understaffing: With only three or four caseworkers handling thousands of beneficiaries, wait times have skyrocketed.

• Policy Confusion: Constant changes in policies with minimal training have left employees struggling to keep up, leading to inconsistent service and increased errors.

• Backend Support Cuts: Reduction in support staff has hampered the agency's ability to process claims efficiently.

• Fraud Crackdowns: Heightened fraud measures, often without proper evidence, have led to wrongful deductions and further administrative burdens.

James Roosevelt (15:30): "They are slashing the programs that we have spent a lifetime paying into."

Historical Context and Political Struggles over Social Security

James Roosevelt provides a historical perspective, tracing the Republican Party's long-standing efforts to undermine Social Security since its inception during his grandfather's presidency. Despite its popularity, continuous attempts to privatize or cut benefits have persisted, making Social Security a perennial third rail in American politics.

James Roosevelt (22:35): "Republicans have been trying to repeal Social Security ever since it passed in 1935."

Experts Weigh In: James Roosevelt and Elon Musk

The episode features in-depth discussions with James Roosevelt and Elon Musk:

• James Roosevelt: Emphasizes the need for comprehensive reform rather than punitive cuts, advocating for increased revenue and fair contribution across all income levels to ensure the program's sustainability.

  James Roosevelt (25:34): "It's like your homeowners or your auto insurance. The people who are driving cars pay their premiums..."

• Elon Musk: Criticizes the administration's internal efforts to dismantle Social Security, suggesting a deliberate strategy to erode public confidence and pave the way for privatization.

  Elon Musk (26:10): "I believe that the goal... is to turn them over to Wall Street, including management fees."

Both experts express deep concern over the current trajectory, highlighting the potential for systemic failure and constitutional crises if reforms are mishandled.

Conclusion: Looking Ahead for Social Security

The episode concludes with a call to action, urging Americans to stay informed and proactive in defending Social Security. James Roosevelt remains cautiously optimistic, believing that informed public pressure can reverse detrimental policies.

James Roosevelt (31:22): "I am long term optimistic, but I don't think it will happen by itself. People have to be informed."

As Social Security marks its 90th anniversary, the episode underscores its critical role in American society and the urgent need to safeguard it against destabilizing policies.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ned Johnson (02:29): "Johnson finally got through and was given an in person appointment. Six weeks later... he decided he'd visit his local Social Security office in person."

• James Roosevelt (14:20): "It's terrifying. I've been involved in a resurrection cases before where you bring somebody back to life pretty much because they were killed off in our systems."

• Susan Fountain (06:07): "You are pissing off and taking away benefits from people who have time on their hands, can organize. This is the stupidest political calculation."

• Elon Musk (27:17): "So I believe that the goal... is to take the assets that people have earned and contributed to the Social Security trust fund and turn them over to Wall street."

Final Thoughts

"Social Insecurity" provides a compelling examination of the challenges facing Social Security today. Through personal stories, expert analysis, and insider accounts, the episode highlights the urgent need for systemic reform to preserve this vital program for future generations.

For more insights and in-depth discussions, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad-free and access exclusive content.

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

For 140 years, MultiCare has been in Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with.

[Ned Johnson]

Local communities and expanding access to care. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail].

[Alex Wagner]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free Listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts.

[Ned Johnson]

Hello.

Hi Mr. Johnson, how are you?

I'm fine, thank you.

This is ned Johnson. He's 82 years old and lives with his wife in Seattle, Washington.

My wife got the first notice from bank of America with their condolences over my death.

As you can hear, Ned Johnson is very much alive.

Two days later we got a second notice from the bank declaring that the Social Security had deducted $5,200 from our checking account.

Johnson was mistaken, mistakenly put on what is called the Death Master File and now had to convince the Social Security Administration that he wasn't dead. That process likely hasn't ever been very fun or easy, but these days it's a full time job.

I discovered after 50 some odd phone calls trying to get through and was put on hold for two hours at a time and then the phone would go dead and you'd have to start all over again.

Johnson finally got through and was given an in person appointment. Six weeks later. Instead of waiting a month and a half, he decided he'd visit his local Social Security office in person.

I was ushered into the room by three armed guards and sat with some 50 odd people. So I sat there for six or eight hours that day and I realized that I was never going to get to the front of the line to to see one of about three or four caseworkers. Their office facility has about 30 or 40 workstations and only had three or four agents.

As he puts it, Johnson got lucky. As soon as a window opened up, he ran over and told the agent, I'm not really dead. Can you help me? After several more hours of waiting and speaking with several more agents Johnson they were finally able to start the process of resurrecting Ned Johnson. In the meantime, Johnson had lost his health care, his credit score went down to zero, and his entire life has been totally upended. And even though Social Security has assured Johnson that he's now alive in their system. He hasn't gotten his next payment yet, so he can't be entirely sure. Did you ever find out why Social Security decided you were dead?

Well, I've asked that question numerous times. The standard answer seems to be as well, it was a computer glitch or a human mis entry into their system.

Ned Johnson is one of more than 73 million Americans who receive benefits from the Social Security Administration every month. A portion of each paycheck most Americans receive is, is paid into the system. It's money they rely on in retirement after a lifetime of paying into the system. That check, which averages just over $20,000 per year, is the sole income for 40% of seniors in the United States. And it isn't just retirees who rely on this money. It's also people with disabilities, as well as their spouses and children and their survivors. But now, under the Trump administration, Social Security is under fire from Doge.

[Elon Musk]

Social Security is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time.

[Ned Johnson]

That was Elon Musk talking to Joe Rogan back in February of this year. Now, Donald Trump, both as a candidate and president, has vowed to preserve Social Security. Here's Trump a month after the 2024 election.

[Susan Fountain]

Won't touch Medicare. Social Security, okay, No, I said to.

[Elon Musk]

Be we're not touching Social Security other than we might make it more effic. The people are going to get what they're getting.

[Ned Johnson]

But making the program more efficient has already caused unbelievable chaos.

[Rennie Glasgow]

A major change coming to Social Security. In an effort to crack down on fraudulent claims, the Trump administration planning to impose stricter measures on how to verify a person's identity. Soon, people will no longer be able to prove their identity over the phone, meaning those who can't do so using the online service have to go in person. The change comes as the agency plans to close dozens of Social Security offices nationwide and lay off thousands of workers. The tightening measures coming from Doge and Elon Musk, who is using claims of voter fraud and illegal immigration to make the pitch for cuts. Allegations for which he hasn't offered evidence and experts say is inaccurate.

[Ned Johnson]

After weeks of outcry, the Trump administration actually backtracked on its requirement that all Social Security identification was required to be in person. Instead, only people flagged for fraud would be required to make an in person visit. Other efficiencies include the plan to eliminate paper checks, which some half a million Americans still rely on for their payments. And then there was reporting from Wired last week that official communications for the Social Security administration would be shifting Exclusively to X, formerly known as Twitter. After the story published, the White House denied that was the case. But Wired stands by their initial reporting about the proposed change.

[Susan Fountain]

Hey, can you help us save Social Security?

[Ned Johnson]

On Tuesday afternoon, as part of a Social Security day of action, there was a small gathering in upper Manhattan outside the local Social Security office where people held signs and passed out flyers.

[Susan Fountain]

I haven't started collecting yet. I trying to wait till I'm 70, you know, now I just don't know what to do. Should I get in before it disappears? Should I, should I wait? Because financially that would be best, but I'm just very, very frightened. You are pissing off and taking away benefits from people who have time on their hands, can organize. This is the stupidest political calculation.

[Ned Johnson]

This was one of three events in New York City on Tuesday, a follow up to the hands off protests across the nation 10 days prior, where, according to organizers, millions of people took to the streets. These threats to Social Security have become an issue that Democrats have started to rally around.

[Elon Musk]

You got the wealthiest guy on earth, Mr. Musk, and this guy is running all over Washington, D.C. slashing the Social Security administration.

[Ned Johnson]

They are slashing the programs that we have have spent a lifetime paying into. And on Tuesday, former President Biden, in his first public speech since leaving office, took the stage in Chicago to explicitly criticize the threats to Social Security.

[Elon Musk]

My friend Governor O'Malley knows what they're really up to. He says they want to wreck it so they can rob it back.

[Ned Johnson]

At the event in upper Manhattan this week, Susan Fountain, one of the organizers, explained what she's doing to protect her Social Security.

[Susan Fountain]

Everybody should consider printing out their Social Security earnings record. Go on the website, download it, print it out. Because, you know, if the Doge kids mess up the Social Security database or, you know, God knows what they might do, I don't know. But we should all be able to document what our earnings record was. So I downloaded and I printed everything because I'm going to the bank right after this rally to put it in my safe deposit box.

[Ned Johnson]

So you've printed out your Social Security payments that have been made throughout your life. You have them with you and you're gonna go to your bank and put them in your safe deposit?

[Susan Fountain]

Yeah, because I just wanna be able to document if this system goes down, if things crash, have some documentation so that you can, you know, justify the benefit that you are supposed to be getting.

[Ned Johnson]

On this episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner. How worried should Americans be about their Social Security? We speak with some of the people in the belly of the beast.

[James Roosevelt]

It is complete confusion. They're changing the rules. They give us one day to learn it. Somebody needs to do a complete stop and a complete 360 before it's too.

[Ned Johnson]

Late and try to understand what the legacy of this New Deal program could teach us about the fight to determine its future.

[Elon Musk]

People have to be informed. They have to wake up and they have to say if they're going to do this that affects us in our daily lives so deeply, it's got to stop.

[Alex Wagner]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Elon Musk]

I do think it's wor being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Alex Wagner]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail] hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[James Roosevelt]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Journalist and author Peter Beiner.

[Alex Wagner]

To me, the danger of any kind of exceptionalism, including American exceptionalism, is it.

[James Roosevelt]

Moves from saying we have certain responsibilities.

[Alex Wagner]

Or tasks that we want to try.

[James Roosevelt]

To achieve to saying that we have.

[Alex Wagner]

Some kind of infallibility.

[James Roosevelt]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

[Ned Johnson]

On Tuesday, I spoke with Althea Mowat, Rennie Glasgow, Amber Westbrook, and an employee who requested anonymity, who we'll call Dan. They all work at the Social Security Administration and are typically at the receiving end of long lines filled with worried people. All four spoke to me in their capacity as members of and on behalf of the American Federation of Government Employees, the union that represents them. What has it been like since the President came into office and DOGE started exerting its influence over the administration? The Social Security Administration?

[Althea Mowat]

It has been an everyday nightmare. Today we are in a free fall. Individuals are hurting. It's extremely stressful.

[Ned Johnson]

It's been a whirlwind I have been at this agency over 20 years and I have never seen so much change.

[Susan Fountain]

So quickly in all of the years.

[Ned Johnson]

I've been at ssa.

[James Roosevelt]

It's been chaos. At first we thought we were all okay. Everybody was, you know, they're messing with these other agencies. Social Security is good. And then from there it just escalated. They're trying to buy people out, use tax paying money to say, hey, why don't you leave? Go find a more productive job. Subjecting employees to these emails that are totally unnecessary. They're just shaking a tree trying to get as many apples to fall out of it as they can. It's a very troubling time, let's put it that way.

[Ned Johnson]

That last voice you heard there, the person we're calling, Dan, he's particularly worried about what's happening to Social Security under doge. What are you hearing from the American public?

[James Roosevelt]

The public is terrified. The ones that we've spoken to, they come into the office, they call our phones, our phone traffic is blowing up lately. But it seems like more people are coming in as they continue just to create more chaos, more rules that really aren't needed. We were fine before, now they're gutting our back end support. It's really terrifying. It is. What is their plan? Fraud this, fraud that. But then they fired the inspector generals.

[Ned Johnson]

When you say they're gutting our backend support, like, what's the practical effect of something like that on a member of the public?

[James Roosevelt]

Yeah. So the field office, we're the front facing face of the agency pretty much. You come in, you see us, we help you with whatever it is you need. Behind us there's regional offices. They work on workloads that support us. There's certain things that we don't do in the office we will transfer to another office to be done. The payment centers effectuate our payments for Title II program. And I mean, if you want to talk to payment centers, I think they're consolidating them down to four. And before it was taking forever to get something out of a payment center just because our staffing was so bad. And now that they've shaken the tree and gotten apples to fall out of it, when we're saying, hey, we're going to send something to the payment center, we're now like, I don't know how long it's going to take because they're reconfiguring it and the public's terrified. These are elderly people, they come into the office, they think they have to sign up for ID proofing, They're already getting benefits. They don't. They give us training on something one day, they enforce it the next. It's. It's chaos. It really is.

[Ned Johnson]

It just feels like there's so much swirl and disinformation around Social Security. I'm thinking in particular about the reporting that Doge falsely labeled 6,000 living immigrants as dead. When you heard about that, I mean, first of all, what was your reaction to that and what was your thought?

[James Roosevelt]

It's terrifying. I've been involved in a resurrection cases before where you bring somebody back to life pretty much because they were killed off in our systems. It stops their life, it stops their credit, it stops their bank accounts, it stops their health insurance. If those people are indeed alive, it is going to end their lives as they know it. Right. So then you're going to have all of these people, if they exist, are going to come rushing into our office and our offices are ready, our seats are full. So you're just going to stand there until we could see you. Because there's not enough of us and they're still trying to get rid of us. There's nothing efficient about this. And when somebody gets killed off in our system and if it's by error, it's time consuming. We don't have time anymore. From the hours of nine till four, we're dealing with people coming in the door. People that are calling all the backend work is sitting there.

[Ned Johnson]

Wow.

[James Roosevelt]

There used to be adjudication time for certain offices where the claims reps would be allowed to work like four hours a week and they just canceled that pilot. So this agency is self inflicting this chaos for no reason. They're saying it's fraud. The people that were responsible for the fraud before, they fired them again, it's chaos.

[Ned Johnson]

Do you feel like enough attention is being paid to what's going on? I mean, I know real damage is being done and not just, you know, in the short term, but the gutting of the back end or, you know, the workflow itself is being harmed to a degree that it will take a really long time to come back from that. Even if you get the resources reallocated to you.

[James Roosevelt]

Yeah, somebody needs to do a complete stop in a complete360 before it's too late. It is complete confusion. They're changing the rules. They give us one day to learn it and then people come in and they're like, hey, this is the new policy. And we're still trying to figure out what the policy even was. We got one day of training, and then they'll say, hey, you know what? We're changing that policy. And then they'll give us a training video and say, hey, you got to watch that video. And then you can get into the training video. Because they're like, hey, we're going to do another training video because we're changing a policy again. So everything is a complete waste of time, and the public is the one that's hurting.

[Ned Johnson]

How much confidence do you have that if someone was in real trouble and needed help from the ssa, they would be able to get it in a timely fashion?

[James Roosevelt]

At this point, myself and my colleagues, we don't want people in trouble. We want to be able to help them as soon as they come in. But it's becoming more difficult. Things are becoming slower, and I worry sometimes. I just had a lady whose check went to the wrong bank account last week, and when I was worried about, you know, the we have to do a fraud check, and I'm like, is this going to take the normal required amount of time? Are the people that did that still there? I don't know the answers to those questions. It used to take a couple weeks. Is it going to take a month? Now? This is time consuming. So if I'm sitting there doing a fraud report for somebody, it takes about an hour, maybe 45 minutes to get everything, send it off, get all the evidence together. Meanwhile, there's. There's people just piling up in the office waiting for me to get done with that so I could take on the next one. Wow. It's only eight hours in a day. Yeah. It's crazy. I constantly have to remind myself, like, yeah, this is real. This is. This is happening.

[Ned Johnson]

I had Social Security, which was once thought to be fairly untouchable.

[James Roosevelt]

You know, I didn't know what Social Security was. When I. When I first took the job, I was. I just got out of the military, got out, got back from Iraq. I was like, hey, federal job. This is, you know, this is the American dream. This is what people want. You get out of the military, you get a good job, and you work your way up. I start at the bottom. I grew to love this agency, to be honest with you, and I grew to love representing employees that work for it, because when you have the happy employees, you have better customer experience. People come into these offices and they're like, hey, you know, I was. I was nervous. I didn't know that it was going to be this relaxed. This is cool. You helped me. I mean, that's what we're AI bots. If that's what the end goal is, I feel bad for society.

[Ned Johnson]

For Rennie Glasgow, a claims technical expert, the recent announcement that the Social Security Administration will be using only X to communicate with the public goes well beyond a potential inconvenience for him. It signals something else.

[Althea Mowat]

As soon as I saw that and heard about that, my first indication was that this is the beginning of the buyout. This is the beginning of privatization. This is the beginning of Elon Musk taking over Social Security. This is the beginning of the Ponzi scheme that he talks about.

[Ned Johnson]

Yeah. Why was it the beginning? I mean, just because it's going to be so destabilizing.

[Althea Mowat]

Not only because it's going to be just destabilizing, but because it is an effort to put money into Elon Musk's pocket, out from the public's coffers. That three point plus trillion dollars. Elon Musk is trying his best to get his hand on that. And this is one initial step and I believe this is the beginning of the privatization of Social Security.

[Ned Johnson]

We reached out to the Social Security Administration for a response and received this statement from a White House spokesperson. MSDNC is shamelessly fear mongering to seniors. President Trump has made it crystal clear he will always protect Social Security and ensure higher take home pay for seniors by ending the unfair taxation of Social Security benefits. Under his leadership, the Social Security Administration is working tirelessly to modernize systems, improve customer service, and safeguard the integrity of these vital programs. We're going to take a short break. We'll have more from Trumpland in just a second.

[Alex Wagner]

As President Donald Trump returns to the White House. What will the first 100 days of the Presidency bring? Follow along as his agenda takes shape with the new MSNBC newsletter. Trump's first 100 days weekly updates sent straight to your inbox and expert insight on the key issues and figures defining this second term.

[James Roosevelt]

We're seeing a really radical effort to.

[Elon Musk]

Change the American system of government.

[Alex Wagner]

Sign up for Trump's first 100 [e-mail] TRUMP 100 Sir David Frost gave us a front row seat to history. Now we discover his most iconic interviews. MSN NBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost Versus beginning Sunday, April 27th at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. The first 100 days. Bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Elon Musk]

Now is the time.

[Susan Fountain]

So we're gonna do it.

[Alex Wagner]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Elon Musk]

How do we strategically align ourselves to.

[Susan Fountain]

This moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Alex Wagner]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Ned Johnson]

This year marks 90 years since Social Security was created. Back in 1935, Americans suffering from deep poverty during the Great Depression were offered a revolutionary program to ensure their long term economic security. The program was the cornerstone of President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal, and it became central to his legacy. Since Roosevelt, Social Security has become one of the most popular government programs in existence, which is why, despite some unsuccessful attempts by conservatives to privatize the system, Social Security has been largely considered the third rail of American politics. So to understand why the Trump administration is choosing to touch that third rail, I spoke to the former Associate Commissioner of the Social Security administration, a man named James Roosevelt, who also happens to be FDR's grandson. Hi, Mr. Roosevelt. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Elon Musk]

Please call me Jim. It's great to see you, Jim.

[Ned Johnson]

Thank you. So I guess I want to start with a little perspective here, because Republican presidents have been going after Social Security since effectively, your grandfather's heyday. Right?

[Elon Musk]

Republicans have been trying to repeal Social Security ever since it passed in 1935. They tried to just repeal it up to World War II. Then they stood back for a little while. Then after World War II, they started trying to cut benefits. And that's when my father started the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare. In 1982, then President George W. Bush announced that he was going to lead a campaign to privatize Social Security and that he would be campaigning in each of the 50 states. And every time he visited a state and explained what he was doing, the polling numbers for privatization dropped. So they abandoned that for 20 years until they did Project 2025. And as we've seen on so many fronts, they have very well thought out a campaign to reduce the benefits and protections of the American people.

[Ned Johnson]

For a long time, Republicans have been trying to privatize Social Security, but it's. It's effectively been a third rail because it's one of the most popular programs in the country. It's a matter of survival for a certain number of millions of Americans.

[Elon Musk]

Well, Social Security is not only a matter of survival, it's also reliable. Yeah, it's never missed a payment since 1940 when it began making payments. And it is self financing.

[Ned Johnson]

Well, I mean, so you make the good point that it is self funding, that it is Very efficient that it. It has not, you know, missed a payment. It feels like there is a concerted effort right now to make the program less functional. I spoke to a bunch of Social Security workers in field offices who are really ringing the alarm about what the staffing cuts are doing to their ability to serve the American public. They think it's effectively stretching the system to what feels to them to be almost a breaking point. Do you worry about systemic failure, given what the Trump administration is trying to do?

[Elon Musk]

I worry a great deal about what the Trump administration is doing from the inside. They've given up attacking it from the outside. They're trying to undermine it from the inside. Again. The taxes collected on workers and employers, they do not impact the federal budget. Social Security is not allowed to borrow, so it doesn't affect the deficit either. But because of our three equal branches of government, the actual expense for running the program have to be appropriated by Congress. They've underappropriated for years so that they were down before Trump to the lowest number of employees ever working for Social Security, with the greatest number of beneficiaries being served because of the growth in the population. Then Trump comes in with the Doge kids and has them do across the board cuts, getting rid of institutional knowledge, expertise, and just access for people.

[Ned Johnson]

There's also the purge of people who believe in the mission of the Social Security administration. Do you think that there are enough people with the institutional knowledge that's necessary who can protect both the workers who remain and also the project of the administration itself as envisioned by FDR?

[Elon Musk]

The previous commissioner, Martin O'Malley, former governor of Maryland, who was the commissioner until the day before Trump took over, had improved morale and improved productivity, so that the wait time for calls was reduced from almost an hour to 10 minutes during his one year as commissioner. It's now gone back way over an hour. And that is a combination of. Combination of understaffing and very low morale.

[Ned Johnson]

Right. People are just, it sounds like from the inside, stretched to the breaking point. They feel exhausted, they feel depleted. They're in anguish over what's happening.

[Elon Musk]

So I believe that the goal, if I may extrapolate for a minute of the acting commissioner, Mr. Dudek, and of Trump and Musk and the Doge Kids, is to get people so unhappy about the. The lack of access and the lack of service when they apply for benefits, when they apply for disability coverage and so on, that people will say, government can't run this. It has to be turned over to private business. And what I think the goal Together with that is. Is to take the assets, the trust fund, even the short term trust fund, and invest it in the market and collect fees for doing that. That's what I'm afraid the goal is. And you might say that it was wild speculation, except that 20 years ago they tried to privatize it. Yeah, that failed from the outside. Now they're trying to create a demand for that from the inside. It simply would take the assets that people have earned and contributed to the Social Security trust fund and turn them over to Wall street, including management fees.

[Ned Johnson]

In the meantime, though, it also feels like they're weaponizing the Social Security data to go after enem of perceived enemies of this administration, whether they're, you know, allegedly, you know, undocumented migrants who are receiving Social Security benefits, which isn't happening, but also anybody that the president and his allies deem, you know, problematic for their agenda. I mean, what worries you most about that scenario in terms of privacy and security and. Well, I mean, democracy?

[Elon Musk]

Well, the confidentiality and security of Social Security records has been religious at the Social Security administration ever since 1935. When I was there, even as an associate commissioner, I couldn't look at your individual record unless I was authorized to work on your particular case. So it's actually a crime to take that data and use it for other purposes, even within the government, because people need the security of knowing that when they furnish their earnings and pay their taxes for Social Security that's not used for any other purpose, nobody should be afraid of enrolling and receiving benefits from Social Security. So what's happening now is again another effort to undermine the program. I believe that there are heroes resisting it, but we are at the point of a constitutional crisis. And part of what is so scary is that that the people in charge either don't understand how an insurance program like Social Security works, or they mislead people intentionally. So, for example, for years we've heard Social Security is going to go bankrupt. Well, it's never going to go bankrupt if we adjust it for the change in the economy. Because now, for example, the adjustment needs to be people who are at the top end of the earnings scale have started earning a lot more in comparison to people in the middle and at the bottom end. That's when you make adjustments, as President Reagan and Speaker Tip O'Neill did in 1983. They adjusted it so that we built up a big trust fund to take care of the baby boomers. Now it needs to be adjusted again. But this shouldn't be adjusted to cut benefits, it should be adjusted to collect revenue so that everyone's paying their fair share. It's like your homeowners or your auto insurance. The people who are driving cars pay their premiums. The people who have accidents collect out of those premiums. Same thing in Social Security. It's an insurance plan. So when Mr. Musk says it's a Ponzi scheme, he then doesn't know what a Ponzi scheme is, or he doesn't know what Social Security is, one or the other. Because it's not that.

[Ned Johnson]

I have to ask, as a Roosevelt, how do you look at the moment that we're in, where we have, you know, in your direct, like, DNA lineage? We've gone from this huge sort of project to secure the futures of all Americans to this very dystopian moment where we're trying to disassemble what feels like nearly a century of progress. How do you look at it?

[Elon Musk]

Well, when I got out of law school, I worked for a brief time for a Wall street law firm. And then I went in the Navy Judge Advocate General's Corps for three and a half years. Then I went back to a law firm and started practicing healthcare law. When President Clinton became president, I was recruited by the then commissioner, a great American named Ken Apfeld. And he pitched to me, you ought to be standing up for the future of the Social Security program that your grandfather started. And that's why I became associate commissioner for retirement policy. And that's when I learned how it really works. I learned about the dedicated employees and I learned about the people, people who relied on it, both for necessities in retirement and for sustaining them with disabilities and their survivors. So, yes, it is a matter of legacy with me, but I've kind of gradually grown into it.

[Ned Johnson]

Are you optimistic about the program's future?

[Elon Musk]

I am long term optimistic, but I don't think it will happen by itself. People have to be informed. They have to wake up and they have to say, all right, we may not like this thing that is being done by the Doge people and President Trump, we may like another one. But if they're going to do this that affects us in our daily lives so deeply, it's got to stop.

[Ned Johnson]

Well, thank you for your expertise and optimism and belief in the American public. It's really great to have your thoughts on all of this, given both your history and your wisdom.

[Elon Musk]

Well, Winston Churchill, I think, said it succinctly. Americans will always do the right thing after they try everything else.

[Ned Johnson]

Sort of feels like that's where we're at now. We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner to get this show and other MSN MSNBC podcasts ad free. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. And if you like what you've been listening to so far on Trump Land, please don't forget to rate and review the show. Also, we have some exciting pod news for us at msnbc. Three of our podcasts are nominated for Webby Awards Into America why is this Happening? And Prosecuting Donald Trump, now known as Main Justice. They are all up for awards. Check out our show notes to see how you can vote for each show and help MSNBC take home some hardware. Trump Land with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Chimeras Perez. Additional production support comes from Hannah Holland. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is head of Audio production, Matthew Alexander is the Executive Producer and Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

[Alex Wagner]

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