The MAGA-fication of the Military

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner: Episode Summary – "The MAGA-fication of the Military"

Release Date: April 3, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The MAGA-fication of the Military," Alex Wagner delves into the profound changes occurring within the United States military under President Donald Trump's administration. Focusing on the first 100 days of Trump's second term, Wagner explores the administration's efforts to reshape the military by targeting Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) programs, altering leadership structures, and redefining military standards. Through in-depth interviews and analysis, the episode sheds light on the implications of these changes for service members, recruitment, and the overall effectiveness of the armed forces.

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1. Senate Confirmation Hearing for Lt. Gen. Dan Kaine

The episode opens with Wagner detailing the Senate Armed Services Committee's confirmation hearing for President Trump's nominee, Lieutenant General Dan Kaine, to serve as the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. This nomination follows the abrupt dismissal of General Charles Q. Brown Jr., the first African American to lead a branch of the armed forces, which had already stirred controversy.

Key Points:

• Background of Dan Kaine: Kaine is portrayed as an "unknown leader" with no prior experience overseeing a military branch or managing large combat divisions. His retirement from active duty marks a departure from tradition, raising questions about his suitability for the role.

• Allegations of Loyalty to Trump: A resurfaced video shows Kaine expressing strong personal loyalty to Trump, including statements like, "I love you, sir. I'll kill for you" ([03:32]). This has led to concerns among Democrats about political allegiance overshadowing military impartiality.

Notable Quote:

"General Kaine, is there any of this nurture?"
— Alex Wagner [03:32]

"For 34 years, I've upheld my oath of office and the responsibilities of my commission. I think the President was actually talking about somebody else."
— Lt. Gen. Dan Kaine [03:55]

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2. The Administration's DEI Purge and Its Impact

Wagner shifts focus to the broader strategy of the Trump administration to eliminate DEI programs within the military. This initiative is part of a larger effort to "make the military more lethal" by removing what the administration perceives as unnecessary distractions.

Key Points:

• Executive Orders: Early actions include executive orders banning DEI programs and specific groups, such as transgender individuals, from serving in the military ([05:37]).

• Elimination of Valuable Programs: DEI-related programs, including the Air Force Women's Initiative, which worked to enhance the effectiveness and readiness of female service members, have been dismantled. This has led to the removal of critical support structures and resources for women in the military.

Notable Quote:

"Our diversity is our strength."
— Lt. Gen. Dan Kaine [05:19]

"Trump is trying to drastically reshape the military by purging anything associated with diversity, equity, and inclusion."
— Alex Wagner [10:21]

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3. Interviews with Military Women: Jessica Rutenberg and Aliyah Nadeem

Central to the episode are interviews with retired Lieutenant Colonel Jessica Rutenberg and Lieutenant Colonel Aliyah Nadeem, both of whom were instrumental in the Air Force Women's Initiative. They discuss the team's efforts to make women more effective soldiers and the detrimental effects of its dissolution.

Key Points:

• Challenges Faced by Women: Rutenberg and Nadeem highlight issues such as inadequate equipment for female pilots and restrictive policies that hinder operational effectiveness. For example, female fighter pilots often lacked proper gear for missions, affecting their performance and safety ([17:27]).

• Impact of Policy Changes: The termination of the Women's Initiative Team has left many female service members feeling unsupported and uncertain about their roles and future in the military ([22:34]).

Notable Quotes:

"We just don't have the tools to relieve ourselves when we're fighting in combat."
— Jessica Rutenberg [17:51]

"We are battle-tested. No one's dying. We got this. We're going to make this work."
— Jessica Rutenberg [23:06]

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4. Pete Hegseth’s Defense of DEI Reforms

Former Fox News host and military nominee Pete Hegseth provides a contrasting perspective, defending the administration's DEI reforms. He argues that removing DEI programs actually strengthens military standards and expands the talent pool.

Key Points:

• Raising Standards Through Inclusion: Hegseth posits that inclusive recruitment policies have led to higher academic standards by broadening the candidate pool, thereby enhancing overall military competence ([21:13]).

• Critique of DEI Programs: He contends that DEI initiatives have lowered standards by introducing non-essential criteria into recruitment processes, which he believes undermines military effectiveness.

Notable Quotes:

"Diversity is our strength."
— Pete Hegseth [05:19]

"Project 2025 is coming to fruition. We're lowering standards to let more qualified individuals in, including women."
— Pete Hegseth [09:04]

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5. Dan Kaine on DEI and Military Competence

In a follow-up interview, Lt. Gen. Dan Kaine expresses deep concerns regarding the Trump administration’s approach to military leadership and DEI policies. He emphasizes the historical necessity of DEI in strengthening the military and warns of long-term detrimental effects.

Key Points:

• Historical Importance of DEI: Kaine argues that DEI has been integral to the military's success by ensuring a diverse and capable workforce, which is essential for a robust defense force ([27:46]).

• Recruitment Crisis: He predicts a significant decline in military recruitment, particularly among young people of color and women, due to the current administration's policies and leadership choices ([28:43]).

• Leadership Concerns: Kaine highlights the removal of trailblazing figures within the military leadership, leading to a lack of role models and diminished trust among service members and potential recruits ([29:53]).

Notable Quotes:

"When you erase the history, it removes role models and gives a sanitized version of American history."
— Dan Kaine [29:53]

"We are the last sanity and fail-safe check to a tyrannical Commander in chief."
— Dan Kaine [31:49]

"The administration has destroyed the history and heavily influenced the future of the American military."
— Dan Kaine [28:58]

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6. Implications for National Security and Military Readiness

The episode concludes by examining how the Trump administration's policies have not only affected internal military dynamics but also posed risks to national security. The leaking of sensitive communications and the appointment of ideologues to key positions undermine operational integrity and international trust.

Key Points:

• Security Breaches: Instances of sensitive information being shared improperly raise concerns about the safeguarding of national security data ([07:20]).

• Trust and Competence: The appointment of leaders perceived as politically loyal rather than professionally qualified erodes trust within the military ranks and among allies ([33:24]).

Notable Quotes:

"We're talking about serious strategic and tactical strike implications. That's a fundamental problem."
— Dan Kaine [33:24]

"It's the same language that dictators use. They see the military as belonging to them, not to the people."
— Dan Kaine [33:02]

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Conclusion

"The MAGA-fication of the Military" provides a comprehensive examination of the Trump administration's efforts to overhaul the U.S. military's structure, leadership, and diversity initiatives. Through interviews with key military personnel and critical analysis, Alex Wagner highlights the potential long-term consequences of these policies on military effectiveness, recruitment, and national security. The episode underscores the tension between political loyalty and professional military standards, raising important questions about the future direction of America's armed forces.

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Produced by: Max Jacobs, Julia D'Angelo, Kay Guerrero
Associate Producer: Jamiris Perez
Audio Engineering: Enrique Lariel, Bob Mallory, Katie Lau
Executive Producers: Matthew Alexander, Aisha Turner
Host: Alex Wagner

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Pete Hegseth]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Alex Wagner]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Dan Kaine]

Committee will come to Order Our eager members of the Fourth Estate are welcome to clear away, thanking.

[Alex Wagner]

Them for their presence On Tuesday morning, the Senate Armed Services Committee held a confirmation hearing for President Trump's nominee for chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the principal military advisor to the president.

[Dan Kaine]

This morning, the committee meets to consider the nomination of retired Lt. Gen. Dan Kaine.

[Alex Wagner]

Trump's pick is Lt. Gen. Dan Kaine, known casually as Raisin Cain. We must start by acknowledging the unusual conditions around your nomination. Six weeks ago, President Trump abruptly dismissed General C.Q. brown, who was not even halfway into his tenure as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Back in February, President Trump fired the man who had held the position, General Charles Q. Brown Jr. A respected career official who Trump himself had nominated in 2020 to lead the Air Force. Brown was the first African American to ever lead a branch of the armed forces. That dismissal caused a stir on its own, but the announcement of Brown's replacement, Dan Kaine, was also met with surprise and confusion.

[Dan Kaine]

I realized for many Americans, I'm an unknown leader.

[Alex Wagner]

Kane was relatively unknown and has never overseen a branch of the military, nor has he managed a large scale division of combat troops. Usually those are prerequisites for the job. Kane is also retired, a break from the tradition of having active personnel in the role.

[Dan Kaine]

I've served in the interagency and at the White House, and I've deployed in combat as a fighter pilot, a special operations officer and a CIA officer. I've also had the privilege of serving alongside incredible business leaders, starting and scaling companies as an entrepreneur. And along the way I learned what a different kind of grit looks like.

[Alex Wagner]

Democrats in the hearing were concerned that Cain was picked because of his alleged loyalty to President Trump. That worry stemmed from a video that resurfaced of Trump speaking at CPAC last year where he talked about meeting Kaine. This is where I met General Raisin Cain. And what's your name, General, what's your name? And he gave me his name.

[Rachel Maddow]

What's your name, Sergeant?

[Alex Wagner]

Yes, sir. And I love you, sir. I think you're a great sir. I'll kill for you, sir.

[Dan Kaine]

And he puts on To Make America Great Again.

[Alex Wagner]

The video and the claims made in it were alarming enough that it became a significant portion of Lieutenant General Kane's confirmation hearing. And according to the reports, the president tells a story where he spoke to you while you were serving in Iraq on active duty and used said that you loved him and I'll kill for you, sir. General Kaine, is there any of this nurture?

[Dan Kaine]

Senator, for 34 years, I've upheld my oath of office and the responsibilities of my commission. I think I went back and listened to those tapes and I think the President was actually talking about somebody else. And I've never worn any political merchandise or said anything to that effect.

[Alex Wagner]

It's easy to understand why a nomination like this might come under heavy scrutiny given what has already transpired under the Trump administration, namely the attempted magification of the American military. It began with Trump's nomination of Pete Hegseth, a veteran and Fox News host who faced significant allegations about both his character and his work. Pete Hegseth's attorney confirmed to NBC News.

[Pete Hegseth]

That Hegseth paid a woman an undisclosed.

[Alex Wagner]

Amount after she accused him of of sexual assault. The lawyer also denied the encounter between Hegseth and an unnamed woman was sexual assault.

[Dan Kaine]

10 current and former Fox News employees who worked with Hegseth telling NBC News that he drank in ways that concern them. Two saying that on more than a dozen occasions they smelled alcohol on him before he went on air. A Trump transition spokesperson calling the allegations disgusting, completely unfounded and false.

[Alex Wagner]

But Hegseth shared Trump's vision about how to remake the military and remove what both men understood to be unnecessary distractions.

[Dan Kaine]

I think the single dumbest phrase in military history is our diversity is our strength.

[Alex Wagner]

Sweeping executive actions banning so called DEI programs were among the first orders Trump signed as president. And then he singled out specific groups.

[Pete Hegseth]

Today, President Donald Trump's controversial executive order.

[Alex Wagner]

Banning transgender Americans from serving in the military. Making these changes in Trump's eyes, would strengthen the country's fighting forces.

[Dan Kaine]

Our armed forces will be free to focus on their sole mission defeating America's enemies. Like in 2017, we will again build.

[Alex Wagner]

The strongest military the world has ever seen.

[Dan Kaine]

Your job is to make sure that it's lethality, lethality, lethality. Everything else is gone. Everything else that distracts from that shouldn't be happening.

[Alex Wagner]

But Trump's rhetoric and now his policies are full of contradictions. Those sweeping DEI cuts have ended programs that the people in them insist make them better, which is to say, more lethal fighters. Military history is being rewritten, in many cases erasing the contributions of people of color and women, all in the name of Trump's diversity purge. His attack on the federal workforce has included thousands in the military and particularly veterans. His cuts to the VA itself have been dramatic and swift, something veterans have noticed. A few weeks ago, I was at a town hall in Arizona and veterans were well represented.

[Dan Kaine]

This administration has proved itself to be the most anti veteran administration ever.

[Alex Wagner]

And then, of course, there is the issue of whether national security information is being properly protected and the risks to those serving if it's not an apparent national security breach.

[Dan Kaine]

That included group text exchanges among top Trump administration officials about U.S. war plans in the Middle east, details of the.

[Alex Wagner]

U.S. war plans shared in real time with the Atlantic's editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg.

[Dan Kaine]

The news angered and bewildered men and.

[Rachel Maddow]

Women who have taken to the air.

[Pete Hegseth]

On behalf of the United States.

[Rachel Maddow]

Going forward, they can no longer be.

[Pete Hegseth]

Certain that the Pentagon is focused on their safety when they strap into their cockpits.

[Alex Wagner]

To put this all in military parlance, the American armed forces under Donald Trump have taken a remarkable amount of incoming. Trump's agenda has raised serious questions about the readiness of the country's fighting forces, who is actually leading them, and whether they are doing all they can to keep those who serve out of harm's way. On this episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, the people who risk their lives in service to this country and what all this change has meant for them.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

We've been talking to a lot of different women and they don't really know what to do. Is there a voice for them? Is there a place for them?

[Alex Wagner]

And what these new policies might mean for the future of the American military.

[Dan Kaine]

I have long advocated for military service, and for the first time in my entire life, I'm telling kids to pause.

[Rachel Maddow]

MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Alex Wagner]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.

[Pete Hegseth]

I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.

[Rachel Maddow]

Remain Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. Five immersive worlds, one amazing theme park.

[Dan Kaine]

Get ready to explore the all new.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Dan Kaine]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Alex Wagner]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Alex Wagner]

Part of President Trump's attempt to drastically reshape the military has been his purge of anything even vaguely associated with diversity, equity and inclusion. DEI military officials, in an attempt to quickly comply with the law, went full doge Articles about the Holocaust, sexual assault and suicide prevention are among those that have been purged from the Pentagon's website. The purge is a result of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's order to scrub articles promoting diversity, equity and inclusion content from its platform. However, dozens reviewed by CNN have no apparent connection to DEI programs. That includes the military story of Jackie Robinson that no longer exists on the Department of defense website. The DoD did repost the story about Jackie Robinson's military service just in time for baseball's opening day. But the DEI purge didn't just affect websites. Entire programs have been eliminated, among them. The Air Force Women's Initiative, the volunteer program whose leaders claim is not a DEI program, was established in 2008. It has studied, recommended and implemented solutions for female service members who had been adhering to male standards in the military. Those standards were often outdated and arbitrary and in many cases, just nonsensical. The Women's Initiative fought these old standards and promoted new ones. It developed two piece flight suits for female pilots. It secured permission for more pilots and crews to perform duties while pregnant. It expanded the range of hairstyles women were allowed to have to better fit with the equipment they were using, including helmets. And it increased VA health care access to former service members. At its core, the Work of the Air Force Women's Initiative team was focused on how to make women better soldiers. You might even say to make them more lethal, the term that Secretary Hegseth and the Trump administration have been so focused on. Shortly after the group ended, we spoke with two women who had devoted years to this retired Lieutenant Colonel and Air Force pilot Jessica Rutenberg and Lieutenant Colonel Aliyah Nadeem, who had led the Women's initiative team since 2015. They're also good friends, something you will probably pick up on immediately.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

We'll behave.

[Alex Wagner]

Don't. Actually.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

We never have.

[Pete Hegseth]

Yeah, Good, well behaved women seldom make history.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

That's unfortunately why we're here. Or fortunately how you look at it, right?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, Rutenberg grew up in D.C. and she now lives in Alabama. Nadeem was born in Ohio, but grew up in Iraq, an experience that shaped her military story. Let's start at the beginning. Why did you guys join the Air Force? Why'd you join the military?

[Jessica Rutenberg]

9 11.

[Alex Wagner]

9 11.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

I grew up actually in Iraq, lived under Saddam Hussein.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

And somebody one day called me a terrorist. And to be fair, though, I think most Americans at that time, you know, didn't know the difference between a terrorist, an Arab, and a Muslim. Right. So I think it just. There was a shock.

[Alex Wagner]

I would argue they probably still don't on some level, but. Well, I digress.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Oh, we could. That's a whole other topic we could dive into. And I remember, like, going home that night and asking my mom, you know, like, am I a terrorist? And she's like, who said that? In what context? And, you know, I have a Leonae Diem. I look like the way I do. And it really, like, changed my perspective. And I was like, no, of course I'm not a terrorist. Like, I love my family back there. And I'd heard comments in the news like, we should make Iraq a parking lot. And I remember as a, you know, a junior in high school thinking, what? You know, like, is this for real? Like, are we really going to do this? And so it just inspired me to join. And I went into a recruiter's office and thank God it was a woman. And I thought, here she is. Like, maybe I could really do this. And I told her, I want to sign up for something that deploys the most. And you should have saw her face. She was like, are you sure? Like, there's some other jobs we can look at. And I was like, no, what deploys the most? And she was like, well, security forces deploys the most. And I was like, that's what I want to do.

[Alex Wagner]

What about you?

[Pete Hegseth]

Well, I was born in D.C. but my dad took a job at the commissary on the naval air station. And we saw the Blue Angels fly all the time because they practiced there. They had their homecoming show, but it was the 1980s, and women didn't fly fighter aircraft at that time. So it didn't occur to me that I could do something like that until years later. They had a school day for girls where they brought in different types of careers. And that's when I saw my first female pilot ever. And I saw a woman standing in a flight suit that looked like me. And all of a sudden, I was like, that's an option. I didn't realize that. And I was like, sorry, Navy. I'm gonna join the Air Force and fly something cool like an 810.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow. That's awesome. What's interesting to me is that both of you guys have these moments where seeing other women, whether it's the recruiter or whether it's the woman in the flight, like, that's a eureka moment. Like seeing yourself right in the. In those women. Representation matters. Right. Rutenberg served 21 years in the Air Force and performed seven tours in Afghanistan and Iraq as a pilot. She is now the director of Level Up Aviation, a nonprofit dedicating to help youth and young adults find equity in aviation. Nadeem has served for 22 years and is currently the commander of the 150th Security Forces Squadron at the 150th Special Operations Wing. And we should note her comments do not reflect those of the Department of Defense or the Air Force. They are her own. I wonder if you can just talk to me about the Women's Initiative Team and the work of that team.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

So the Women's Initiative Team started out of, actually, Office of Personnel Management, so under, you know, equal opportunity. And one of the things that OPM essentially was designated to do is how do you remove barriers for the federal force? And so it first sort of started as we kind of all got around the table and talked about all our issues, right? And I got really tired of coming, like, year after year and hearing the same issues, and there was, like, no tangible changes. And so I came in, guns blazing, and I was like, if you want to go talk about this, you want to go cry about it, this is not the group for you. And so we sort of flipped it, and we started to look at how can we make women more lethal, more ready, and everything from, like, as of right now, today, Some women cannot relieve themselves in the jet.

[Alex Wagner]

Right. Because of the flight suits.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

There's equipment that you need to do that, and if you don't have that equipment readily available, then you can't do it.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Pete Hegseth]

Bladder relief is an issue for some female fighter pilots. It fits down there, but, like, it might not get the proper seal. You might get rashes. They tactically dehydrate themselves, or they even get urinary tract infections because of this. So it's great that they have it. It's a good start. But one size doesn't fit all. We need to constantly improve that and think about that.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. So, like, one of the things you're hearing is women, like, don't have the, literally the tools to relieve themselves, the tech to relieve themselves when they're fighting in combat.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

And those are the things we were working on, because now you're gonna have a pilot who's not combat effective.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Right. So all this leads to readiness and operations. And so that's what we focused on. We've always wanted to be. We just didn't sometimes, always have the equipment. We didn't have the right policies in place to make us more lethal. And for example, one of the reasons that we worked on hair policy is so, you know, I was enlisted security forces, shooting my weapon, have this huge cavalier helmet on.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

And, you know, as you're shooting, right. You're like, shooting like this. And your helmet is coming up. Right.

[Alex Wagner]

Because of your hair.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Yeah. Because you have a bunch.

[Alex Wagner]

You have to have your hair in a bun, per the rules. Is that right?

[Pete Hegseth]

It was right. Or very short, like a bob.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Like, your hair would have been perfect.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay.

[Pete Hegseth]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, that's good to know.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

So I remember we used to go to our combat arms instructor and say, you know, sir, in my case, it was usually always a man, sir, may I please take my hair down to shoot my weapon? So he would, you know, usually be like, yes, but make sure you put it right back up. So we would go ask if we could do a braid and then tuck it, you know, underneath, and they'd give us permission to do that.

[Alex Wagner]

You needed special permission to get a braid.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Yeah. Just to shoot my weapon.

[Dan Kaine]

Wow.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

But what if I'm in a real world situation? I don't have time to take my bun. Like a female fighter pilot.

[Pete Hegseth]

Right.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

She needs to put her helmet on.

[Pete Hegseth]

Right. Anyone who has to wear a helmet when they fly, you have to put your hair down so you get the proper fit. And so you're flying in Afghanistan and you come back and you land. But they're saying it looks unprofessional. So I can kill somebody with my hair down, but as soon as I land, I need to put my hair back up.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

So when we talk about lethal, like, we work that not to look cute, because trust me, I've heard that someone, you know, once said, you guys just want your hair in ponytails and braids because you want to look cute. And I said, there's nothing in uniform going to make me look cute. That's number one. Right? Number two is, you know, I'm sad that you really think that we're trying to look cute. We're trying to do our jobs.

[Alex Wagner]

This is something they told me repeatedly. We're just trying to do our jobs. But that work has now been labeled dei somehow. Part of a woke agenda.

[Pete Hegseth]

I think there's a fear at the top level that we're lowering standards to let women in. And the fear, woke is synonymous with lowering standards. And the truth is, we have data, the Women's Initiative team has shown that we've lowered academic standards in career fields when we didn't have enough people to get in there. And guess what? A lot of those career fields were career fields that women should be just not tall enough. It had nothing to do with their academic ability. So, like the D lab for the linguist. Why does a linguist have to be 5 foot 4 to sit in the back of the plane? Well, this is a really high aptitude test for language, and they had a lower score because they didn't have enough people that were academically qualified. But there was an amazing amount of women that could do it but just weren't tall enough. And it was like, why don't we just lower it 2 inches or 3 inches and get the population in? And they went out there and measured and checked for safety, and they're like, boom, instantaneous. And they were able to get their recruiting up.

[Alex Wagner]

So just to be clear, you're saying that having a more inclusive agenda actually raises the bar?

[Pete Hegseth]

It did.

[Alex Wagner]

So when you cast a wider net in terms of recruits, you get better.

[Pete Hegseth]

People, you get more talent to choose from, and if it happens to be a woman, fantastic.

[Alex Wagner]

I guess I wonder, though, and I say this just because this is all happening under the auspices of, you know, ending wokeness in the military. What if actually turning back the clock is kind of the point here? I mean, I don't mean to be alarmist, but do you ever consider that, like, maybe it's not a priority to have women functioning well in the military. And that fewer women in the military, if that happens, is, like, fine with them.

[Pete Hegseth]

I don't think we'll meet our recruiting goals without women. The army met their first recruited goals in 2024, and they couldn't do it without women. Women were more qualified when it came to academics. They had more college degrees than men, and they were less likely to be disqualified for things such as criminal records. So we simply cannot do it. It is a competitive advantage for America to recruit from the entire population. So I wasn't surprised when it came out. When the Women's Initiative team, I did have an emotional reaction.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. What is the mood inside the ranks, women who are serving and how are they thinking about all this?

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Well, I never want to speak for all women, of course, but I think there's a mood of concern. Right. I think everyone will salute smartly. Right. We take an oath to the Constitution, so I think everyone will do that. But I think coupled with some of the comments about women seeing the Women's Initiative team go away, the mood is a little dim, you know, and so I've, I think between both of us, we've just, We've been talking to a lot of different women, and they don't really know what to do.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

Is there a voice for them? Is there a place for them? You know, people are. Some of these other career fields is like, well, am I allowed to stay in my career field? You know, they just. There's so much unknown right now that I think it's giving them trepidation, possibly about service and their future. And so I think, listen, we've persevered through a lot harder things. We've made it through war, Right? We have gone. We are battle tested. We've made it through war. We've done the work. No one's dying. We got this. We're going to make this work.

[Alex Wagner]

We reached out to see if Nadeem or Rutenberg had heard anything more about the Women's Initiative since we spoke to them. They told us the group and its work had ended and that most Defense Department websites mentioning women or their services have been removed. Nadeem also told us she's considering running for Congress in Ohio as a Republican. We'll be right back.

[Rachel Maddow]

As President Donald Trump returns to the White House, follow along as his agenda takes shape with the new MSNBC news newsletter. Trump's first 100 days weekly expert insight on key issues sent straight to your inbox. Sign [e-mail] TRUMP 100.

[Alex Wagner]

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Dan Kaine]

This week on my podcast why Is this Happening? Author and YouTuber John Green on his book Everything Is the History and Persistence of Our Deadliest Infection.

[Alex Wagner]

I think of the story of human health as like this long staircase that we're walking up. You know, you start out with Hippocrates telling people like, don't even bother treating this.

[Dan Kaine]

It's totally impossible.

[Alex Wagner]

And Then eventually in 1882, Robert Koch figures out it's infectious. And then we develop chest X rays and better diagnostics, and then we develop really good antibiotics. And now people are able to be cured of tuberculosis. And we're walking up and up and up the staircase. And I want to be clear, like we didn't take like two or three steps down the staircase. We fell down the staircase. That's what's happening right now.

[Dan Kaine]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever.

[Rachel Maddow]

You'Re listening right now and follow MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week, she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Jessica Rutenberg]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[Dan Kaine]

Hey everybody, Pete Hegseth here. We're about to land in Washington, D.C.

[Alex Wagner]

On Monday, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced a sweeping review of military standards for combat roles.

[Dan Kaine]

For far too long, we allowed standards to slip and different standards for men and women and combat arms, moss and jobs. That's not acceptable. We need to have the same standard, male or female, in our combat roles to ensure our men and women who are under our leaders or in those formations have the best possible leaders and the highest possible standards that are not based at all on your sex.

[Alex Wagner]

Well beyond Hegseth's announcement this week, veterans advocates say all of these changes threaten to make potential recruits, including people of color and women, feel unwelcome. And that could be a real problem for a military that has already been struggling with recruitment in recent years. Before he left the service in 2023, Bobby Jones led a distinguished naval career spanning over two decades. Serving as commanding officer of Maritime Expeditionary Security Squadron 4, Jones worked as a recruiter for the Naval Academy and is also the president of Veterans for Responsible Leadership, a nonpartisan group of veterans advocating for the integrity of American democracy. Commander Jones joined me to talk about the effect of all of this chaos and controversy on America's ability to actually get people to enlist in the US Military. Trump has moved very swiftly to overhaul, if you will, the military and specifically target what he calls DEI programs and to purge the military of both people and programs and initiatives that fall under that very broad banner. I know you've raised alarm bells about some of that, and I wonder if you could elaborate on what your assessment is of all these actions.

[Dan Kaine]

The United States military, specifically our military, has been DEI almost from day one. Now, I would love to sit there and say it was because of the enlightened ideas the founders wrote about, but, no, it was out of necessity. So when you see the things that he's trying to do, number one, America has gone through this before and found that it doesn't work, because in times of crisis, it's amazing how meritocracy actually becomes a thing. And you have to find the willing and the able to serve. And what he's trying to do is he's betting that people who he thinks will be willing will also be just as able to do that. And American history shows us that's not the case. And the irony of it is those who are most able to serve have often been denied the ability to serve at various points, and we're going backwards because of that.

[Alex Wagner]

What does this all do for recruitment right now?

[Dan Kaine]

If you are a young person, right, and particularly a young person of color, and I'll talk about why that's important in a second. I have long advocated for military service, and for the first time in my entire life, I'm telling kids to pause.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow, really?

[Dan Kaine]

And I'm saying that, you know, as someone who has two daughters, one that's in, you know, 20, going to be 21, another that's 16, about to be 17, who both parents served in the United States military. Their great grandfather was a Tuskegee Airman, and then the other one was a Korean War vet. So I don't say this lightly. I say this because, bottom line, what Trump has done, the administration has done. In less than 80 days, they have destroyed the history of the American military. They have heavily influenced the future of the American military. And the direct results will be those who are currently in uniform who have to suffer through that. You erase the history, right? Like the Tuskegee Airmen, the WASP woman's Air Force service pilots, all these different groups of Navajo code talkers. You erase them. It removes role models, and it gives a sanitized version of American history. So now if you do serve you're wondering, will my contribution be remembered and will it matter?

[Alex Wagner]

And I would assume just in terms of getting people excited and willing to sacrifice their lives. It has to feel meaningful. That, that, that's a, a meaningful thing. It's not just, oh, we should be accurate about history, right? But we should actually give people a believe that their efforts are worth it and will be remembered.

[Dan Kaine]

Yes, ma'am. You're asking 17 and 18 year old people to raise their right hand and say, I'm willing to die for this country. The least you can do is remember me. Right? And so when you see that, that's one big red flag. Then within one week of you coming on board, one month, the first person you fire is the command on the Coast Guard, who was the first member of that rank openly to be lgbtq. You then fire the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who was only the second black man to have that position, and then you fire the only woman to ever sit as a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Chief of Naval Operations. You do this all back to back to back, eliminating any diversity amongst the Joint Chiefs of Staff, meaning you now only have older white men in charge. So, so let's think about this. If I'm a black kid or if I'm a woman, that is thinking about service, just like my daughters, both. You know, my oldest is black and female. You know, with two veteran parents, why would I want to go into an environment where my competency will not matter as much as my appearance? And that's the fundamental question.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, there's the open question about whether the people Trump is appointing here are actually qualified in the way that they should be or better qualified than the people who formerly occupied those positions. Today actually is the Senate confirmation hearing for Trump's choice of a replacement for CQ Brown, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and his replacement, Lt. Gen. Dan Kaine. The fact of the matter is, Trump clearly seems to believe that Kaine will be loyal to him. And I sort of wonder, how do you look at that situation?

[Dan Kaine]

I don't know if most people know this. You take two different oaths. The officers take one oath that is different than the enlisted. And I stress this because the enlisted o says you will obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed above you. The officers do not have that clause. They do not have obey the President, blah, blah, blah. You know why? Because we are supposed to be the last sanity and fail safe check to a tyrannical Commander in chief. So when I hear a story that allegedly happened with General Kane, where he's literally pledging loyalty to an individual, putting on the hat, doing all this, saying he'll kill for him, et cetera, et cetera. It gives you pause. And then if you go back to Trump's first administration, he referred to the generals and admirals as his generals and admirals. Again, I have dealt with dictators in my career. I've traveled this planet, and I'm telling you, that is the exact same language that that dictators use. They do not see the military, specifically the military leadership, as those belonging to the people. They see it as those belonging to them. And that is a dangerous precedent.

[Alex Wagner]

I get why you're advising young recruits to maybe just take a pause and to just, you know, I mean, I would also assume, you know, in addition to the leadership question, the qualifications question, there's the safety question, right? I mean, obviously, war is dangerous, but I can't get over the signal chat, like, what does it mean for the people who are at sea, like, waiting to take off on an aircraft carrier?

[Dan Kaine]

We're talking about serious strategic and tactical strike implications. That's a problem. That's a fundamental problem. And it shows me a callousness, right, because each one of the individuals in that group chat has access to secure communications. Every last one of them, right? They did this out of convenience and they did this out of ego. You're seeing the gutting of the military's true subject matter experts being replaced by ideologues. And why that's dangerous is not just our people in uniform that your sons and daughters may be, but also our allies. There will be no trust. I mean, the damage that was done just from that chat being leaked internationally and domestically, I think we're going to be reeling for that for years. For years. And I can't tell a kid at 18, hey, I trust the stewardship of the people in charge right now because of the lack of experience and now the lack of seriousness to which they take their jobs. I think a year from now, we will be in a very big recruiting crisis because you have multiple things that are coming to the forefront at the same time, which Trump has helped either accelerate or has ignored. So, culturally, you are saying to specific groups of people, you need not apply. Your history and contributions don't matter, right? I'm saying in a year, because you got to give all these policies time to kick in and tick people off. In a year, you're going to see them lower what they believe are the actual recruiting requirements and the recruiting goal numbers. They'll do it quietly because they don't want people to say, hey, you're bringing in less people because less people want to do this. But that's what they're going to do.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow. Building the most lethal army by lowering the standards of who can be in it.

[Dan Kaine]

Well, limiting who you want in it because you believe the poster will win the war.

[Alex Wagner]

We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner. To get this show and other MSNBC podcasts ad free, be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. And if you like what you've been listening to so far on Trumpland, please don't forget to rate and review the show. Trumpland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Jamiris Perez. Our crew included Enrique Lariel on audio and Liam lee and Catherine McNamara on camera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is is head of audio production, Matthew Alexander is our executive producer and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now. Action plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News, and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.