The Purge

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner: Episode Summary – "The Purge"

Release Date: February 6, 2025
Host: Alex Wagner, MSNBC

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Overview

In the episode titled "The Purge," Alex Wagner delves deep into the tumultuous first 100 days of Donald Trump's second presidency. Focusing on the administration's aggressive efforts to restructure the federal government, Wagner brings forward firsthand accounts from federal employees and experts, shedding light on the widespread implications of Trump's policies. This comprehensive summary captures the episode's key discussions, insights, and conclusions, providing a clear understanding for listeners who missed the full episode.

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1. The Wave of Federal Purges

Alex Wagner opens the episode by contextualizing the administration's wave of executive orders aimed at significantly reducing the size of the federal government. The focus is primarily on the mass departure of federal employees and the strategic dismantling of key agencies.

"President Trump is making more than 2 million federal workers an offer. Quit now and accept a severance package." (02:56)

These actions, Wagner explains, represent a systematic attempt to reshape the federal workforce, aligning it more closely with the administration's vision of efficiency.

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2. The Fallout at USAID

One of the most significant impacts has been on the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). Former USAID speechwriter, Zach Stafford, provides a harrowing account of the agency's shutdown:

"So the last week has been just so crazy... my access was completely revoked. I couldn't retrieve any emails, I couldn't retrieve any communication." (16:10)

USAID, responsible for international humanitarian aid and development programs, has been a primary target. The abrupt closure raises numerous questions about the future of vital programs in regions like Gaza, Ukraine, and South Sudan.

Sam Sanders adds context by highlighting USAID's longstanding role in promoting American values abroad:

"They provide critical life or death humanitarian aid to more than 100 countries... promoting democracy, transparency, and human rights." (13:52)

The shutdown not only jeopardizes these programs but also America's reputation on the global stage.

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3. Mass Firing of Inspectors General

The episode takes a critical turn as Wagner discusses the mass firing of 18 Inspectors General (IGs) across various federal departments. Saeed Jones, a poet and commentator, provides an insider perspective:

"These positions were designed to be apolitical and not change with administrations... Are they going to be watchdogs or are they going to be lap dogs?" (29:46)

This move undermines the essential oversight mechanisms that guard against fraud, waste, and abuse within the government. The legality of these firings is questionable, as they contravene a 2022 law requiring a 30-day notice to Congress before removing an IG.

Mark Greenblatt, the former Inspector General for the Department of the Interior, recounts his experience:

"Dear Mark, on behalf of President Donald J. Trump, I'm writing to inform you that due to changing priorities, your position as Inspector General of Department of Interior has terminated, effective immediately." (27:58)

The abrupt termination leaves departments vulnerable and diminishes the government's ability to maintain accountability.

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4. Reactions from Federal Employees and Unions

The administration's actions have elicited strong reactions from federal employees and unions. Saeed Jones shares sentiments from the ground:

"It feels like a slow-motion coup. These are dramatic changes. There's no question it's alarming." (31:27)

Unions representing government employees have voiced their opposition, with some filing lawsuits to block the buyout plans. The emotional toll on employees is palpable, with many expressing fear and uncertainty about their future.

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5. Legal and Political Implications

The episode delves into the legal challenges posed by the administration's actions. The removal of IGs without proper notice and rationale stands in direct violation of existing laws, potentially opening the door to significant legal battles.

Zach Stafford emphasizes the broader implications:

"More than that around the world... They've all been furloughed because they can't, you know, they are not getting paid." (17:16)

The global repercussions extend beyond federal workers, impacting international partners and the effectiveness of aid programs worldwide.

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6. Conclusion: A Critical Juncture for American Governance

Alex Wagner concludes the episode by reflecting on the unprecedented nature of the administration's purge:

"It feels like President Trump is trying to break something fundamental to the American project. And if he ends up succeeding, well, what happens then?" (32:00)

The episode underscores the fragility of institutional checks and balances in the face of concentrated executive power. The long-term effects on governance, accountability, and America's role globally remain uncertain, marking this period as a pivotal moment in American political history.

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Notable Quotes

• Saeed Jones (29:46):
  "These positions were designed to be apolitical and not change with administrations... Are they going to be watchdogs or are they going to be lap dogs?"

• Zach Stafford (16:10):
  "I couldn't retrieve any emails, I couldn't retrieve any communication."

• Mark Greenblatt (27:58):
  "Dear Mark... your position as Inspector General of Department of Interior has terminated, effective immediately."

• Saeed Jones (31:27):
  "It feels like a slow-motion coup. These are dramatic changes. There's no question it's alarming."

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Impact and Reflection

"The Purge" serves as a crucial examination of the Trump administration's initial strategies to redefine the federal landscape. Through personal testimonies and expert analysis, Alex Wagner presents a comprehensive picture of the challenges and uncertainties faced by federal employees and the broader implications for American governance.

Listeners gain insight into the human cost of political maneuvering, the erosion of institutional safeguards, and the potential long-term consequences for both domestic and international policy frameworks. The episode stands as a testament to the ongoing struggle between executive authority and the foundational principles of democratic accountability.

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Transcript

[Sam Sanders]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm poet Saeed Jones.

[Zach Stafford]

And I'm producer Zach Stafford.

[Saeed Jones]

And we are the host of a podcast called VibeCheck.

[Sam Sanders]

On Vibe Check, we talk about everything. News, culture and entertainment and how it all feels.

[Saeed Jones]

That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface. Yes, indeed, and it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to.

[Sam Sanders]

Life, follow and listen to Vibe Check.

[Saeed Jones]

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[Sam Sanders]

After the 2024 election, many Americans just needed a break. People turned off their TVs and they closed their newspapers. An AP poll from last December found that around two thirds of American adults said they felt they needed to limit their consumption of news about the government and politics because they were so fatigued. And it looked at first like the resistance of Trump 1.0 had disappeared, had gone quiet. Now, that may well still be true, but earlier this week, there was a glimmer of something Elon Musk has got to go.

[Saeed Jones]

Hey, hey. Our money.

[Sam Sanders]

On Tuesday night, in front of the treasury building in Washington, D.C. a large crowd gathered for a Nobody Elected Elon rally.

[Saeed Jones]

We have got to tell Elon Musk. Nobody elected your ass. Nobody told you you could be in charge of the payments of this country.

[Sam Sanders]

It was a chilly, blustery evening that began with a couple hundred people carrying homemade signs gathered on the sidewalk in front of the Treasury Building. But by the time a group of Democratic lawmakers began speaking, hundreds of protesters had spilled onto the street.

[Zach Stafford]

This is what you want.

[Sam Sanders]

Police eventually just cordoned off a whole block of Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Saeed Jones]

Tell me what democracy looks like. This is what democracy looks like.

[Sam Sanders]

If it wasn't the resistance proper, it sure felt resistant. A moment of catharsis, an expression of anger at what has been happening to the federal government under President Trump and his advisor, Elon Musk, who now heads the Department of Government Efficiency, also known as doge.

[Saeed Jones]

We want to make sure that all of our federal employees are protected.

[Sam Sanders]

If you are one of the over 2 million federal workers in this country. The last few weeks have been an onslaught.

[Saeed Jones]

President Trump is making more than 2 million federal workers an offer. Quit now and accept a severance package. A government email Titled Fork in the Road offers federal employees a choice, a severance package or return to the office.

[Sam Sanders]

Unions representing government employees have filed a lawsuit to block the plan, calling the buyout offer arbitrary and capricious. Trump and Elon Musk, they're really focusing their ire right now on usaid.

[Saeed Jones]

In just the last hours, Musk calling the agency criminal and saying it's time for it to die. USAID is uncertain fate. We've just confirmed an email went out early this morning to staff saying, do not come in. Headquarters will be closed this morning as.

[Zach Stafford]

Federal workers are literally locked out of their offices while operatives working for a private citizen essentially take over our government.

[Sam Sanders]

Today, the President confirmed Musk's Department of Government Efficiency was granted access to treasury payment systems, which house the private information of millions of Americans. Thanks for joining. Given all of that, it would make sense that this moment in front of the treasury building would feel like both an inflection point and a response.

[Saeed Jones]

Elon Musk wants everyone in America to be at the mercy of Elon Musk.

[Zach Stafford]

We are here to fight back.

[Sam Sanders]

Senator Elizabeth Warren was there, as was Representative Maxwell Frost, the youngest member of Congress.

[Saeed Jones]

We might have a few less seats in Congress, but we're not gonna be the minority. We're gonna be the opposition.

[Sam Sanders]

At one point, Senator Richard Blumenthal surveyed the crowd.

[Saeed Jones]

If you're a federal employee, raise your hand. Raise your hand. If you work, we are proud of you.

[Sam Sanders]

But if you had been in the crowd at that moment, you could have counted the number of federal workers on two hands. Maybe they were scared to be captured by the TV cameras, given Trump's scrutiny and focus on so called loyalty. Or maybe the crowd was made up mostly of concerned citizens, people who had had enough of the chaos and wanted to do something with their anger. After walking through the crowd, we did find a few federal workers.

[Saeed Jones]

I've been in government nearly 20 years. I would like it to be more efficient, but not like this.

[Sam Sanders]

Not like just wanton destruction. We spoke with someone who told us he was a federal employee, but he was nervous to tell us exactly where he worked and put on a mask when our cameras started rolling. What's the mood among federal workers right now?

[Saeed Jones]

It's really funny because I think last time it was, this is an aberration and we're gonna, you know, get through this and things will return to normal. And now it's more like, oh, no, this is, you know, this, like we're in this for, for some kind of long haul. Who knows? Like, it feels very Disempowering.

[Sam Sanders]

You're still working, right?

[Saeed Jones]

To the extent possible, we continue to do what we can.

[Sam Sanders]

Our people fearful right now. Yeah.

[Saeed Jones]

I think everybody's kind of aware of, like, it's not as bad for us as it is for a lot of people that have much worse. But, yeah, the prospect of losing a job that you've worked at and you're.

[Sam Sanders]

Really passionate about, you've been doing for.

[Saeed Jones]

Decades is really scary.

[Sam Sanders]

It feels like for a while, there hasn't been, like, an organized resistance with sort of energy and focus. And I don't know if I'm overstating the case here, but this feels like an inflection point for that.

[Saeed Jones]

This feels much more exciting than I think anything we've seen. Because I was thinking about this the other day. We feel like we have protests and they have rallies, and this feels like a rally.

[Sam Sanders]

We found another federal employee who was willing to talk with us anonymously and not on camera. I asked her about this past week.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah. So I'm a federal employee.

[Sam Sanders]

We've been getting a lot of emails.

[Zach Stafford]

From a new email address that's essentially.

[Sam Sanders]

Insulting the civil service and requesting that we resign.

[Zach Stafford]

That's what it feels like.

[Sam Sanders]

There's a lot of pressure to resign.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

But as far as I know, no one in our office is interested in taking that offer. There's a lot of, like, rumors flying around related to reductions in force. None of that has been confirmed. Do you feel like there's enough resourcing to stop the. What could be an attempt at, like, a broad series of layoffs.

[Zach Stafford]

Civil servants care about the mission, about supporting the American citizenry, and they are going to fight to stay in their.

[Sam Sanders]

Roles and defend democracy.

[Zach Stafford]

That is an active conversation in the hallways.

[Sam Sanders]

How long have you been a federal worker? I'm still in my probationary first year, so I feel very vulnerable.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

What a first year.

[Zach Stafford]

Oh, my God.

[Sam Sanders]

I came to the government for stability. Those are long hair. Yeah. Yeah.

[Zach Stafford]

Turns out that was a mistake. So.

[Sam Sanders]

Now, today, Thursday, February 6, was supposed to be decision day, the deadline for the vast majority of federal workers to decide whether to accept or reject a buyout offer from President Trump and Elon Musk. But on Thursday afternoon, just hours before that midnight deadline, a federal judge in Boston temporarily blocked the administration from implementing these mass buyouts at least until Monday. So right now, it would seem federal workers have a few more days to decide. If workers do accept the buyout, they would trade in their resignation for the promise of eight months of pay and benefits. But the big problem with that promise is that Congress hasn't actually approved those eight months of payment, and the federal government is only funded through March 14th. So whether Trump and his administration can actually make good on this deal is an open question. There are over 2 million federal workers in the system, and the administration is hoping for 5 to 10% of them to take the offer. But as of Thursday afternoon, only 60,000 workers had reportedly taken the deal, roughly 3%. Still, who knows what happens next? On this episode of Trump Land with Alex Wagner, we're heading back to D.C. as the Trump administration attacks the federal workforce, we speak with some of the civil servants caught in the crossfire.

[Zach Stafford]

I signed a contract to serve the American people on my 9 to 5 and this is my 9 to 5 today. And so I'll be here as far as I need to be.

[Saeed Jones]

Hey friends, Ted Danson here and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance.

[Sam Sanders]

For me and my good bud Woody.

[Saeed Jones]

To reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, and.

[Sam Sanders]

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[Saeed Jones]

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[Sam Sanders]

Must be 21 years or older. Terms and conditions apply. It's Tuesday in Washington, D.C. and Trump has been issuing a flurry of executive orders intended on dramatically slashing the size of the federal government. And he is doing it with complete disregard to what is potentially lawful and what is potentially most orderly in terms of a transition. We've been running around town for the last 48 hours trying to follow this story and understand how people are dealing with it. But every time, you know, you talk to one group of people, another agency comes under assault. It's just like, it's like federal agency whack a mole. We're on our way to USAID, which is the U.S. agency for International Development. And that organization has been the focus of Trump's federal purge. The agency itself has been shuttered. People's emails have been turned off. It's a huge question mark about what the international programs funded by usaid, what the future of those programs is. And we're going to speak with one employee who is at the center of all of this and whose career, whose future, whose work remains deeply uncertain, which is maybe the point of all of this. Hi, how are you? Alex, how are you? Thanks for doing this. We met Christina Dry in front of the building earlier this week, which up until very recently was where she came to work every day. The USAID building is one of those huge D.C. buildings that essentially takes up a whole block, which maybe gives you a sense of what an institution it is. The kind of institution that helped rebuild Europe from the ashes of World War II and helped eradicate smallpox and has fought to secure food for millions in the world's most vulnerable nations for over six decades. More than 10,000 people work for USAID, about 2/3 of them overseas. They provide critical life or death humanitarian aid to more than 100 countries, including areas decimated by war like Gaza and Ukraine and South Sudan. They also promote democracy, transparency, and human rights with the idea that these American values spread around the world help both the global community and our own national security. That's not to say that the work of USAID has been without criticism for years. Conservatives have raised questions about inefficient spending, while liberals have voiced concerns over the ethics of making vulnerable nations reliant on American aid. And this isn't the first time the agency has been a high profile political target. In 1995, during the Clinton administration, Congress passed a bill abolishing USAID, but it was never signed into law. Whatever its flaws, no administration, Democratic or Republican, has been willing to strip USAID down to the studs until this one. So maybe just first start and tell me where you worked or work. I don't even know what tense to use.

[Zach Stafford]

I also don't know what tense to use. I worked work at USAID and I'm a speechwriter for the front office.

[Sam Sanders]

Do you think about past tense, present tense, future tense when you say that.

[Zach Stafford]

In my head, I think past tense, I feel like actively right now, it's probably present tense, but by the minute, I feel like. I feel like it's past tense.

[Sam Sanders]

And just walk me through the last week.

[Zach Stafford]

So the last week has been just so crazy. I know that most people have heard about the emails people got from the government in the executive orders that first week of the new administration telling us, you know, we're cutting all deia. And so I, you know, they were asking that we scrub our websites. They were making sure that people who had that in their job description were furloughed or administrative leave or whatever term they were using at the time. And then it just really ramped up. On Monday, I was sitting in my office and, you know, heard sobbing. And I looked around. It was people who had just gotten an email. I mean, civil servants who had worked for decades, you know, across administrations that had received an email saying that you're on administrative leave effective immediately. We were finding out who it was based on hearsay from other colleagues that were also saying, oh, this person isn't here today, but they were here yesterday. So that was Monday. And then throughout the week, it just. It just continued to feel really heavy. You know, they unplugged the televisions with the new stations from the kitchen galley. They took off all the pictures of our work off the walls.

[Sam Sanders]

Why did they unplug the televisions?

[Zach Stafford]

I couldn't tell you. I walked in one day to warm my lunch and the TVs were on. And then I walked in the next day and they were off. You know, we heard rumors that Doge was in the building, that they were assessing our work and they were doing this review. And all throughout the week, again, as I'm sure you've heard, contractors were being furloughed right and left, and you didn't know who and what and when until you saw them post on LinkedIn saying they were open for work. And then on Saturday morning, all the websites went completely blank. I tried to log in Saturday, probably around 7pm, and my access was completely revoked. So I couldn't retrieve any emails, I couldn't retrieve any communication. I couldn't retrieve any old speeches for writing samples. You lost complete access. And then we were told not to come to work on Monday through an email that I didn't receive because I didn't have access.

[Sam Sanders]

How did you find out about it?

[Zach Stafford]

I found out about it from colleagues who still had access, which there was no pattern to who did and did not. They texted and said, hey, they're saying that the building is closed. And at that point, I started feeling very past tense about this. And I wanted my stuff, like the remaining stuff I had at my desk. And I came here and they said, you know, did you get the email? And I said, I didn't get the email because I didn't have access. They gave me a printout of the email and then they said, you know, it's just closed today.

[Sam Sanders]

There's the swiftness with which this has all happened, but it also sounds so chaotic.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

It sounds like people are. It's word of mouth, your livelihood and the work of this massive agency. The agenda here is not developed.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

And the execution is completely scattershot.

[Zach Stafford]

That's the way it feels. And even as a contractor, most of USAID is contracted. My contractor had no idea.

[Sam Sanders]

So people are contractors. I mean, these are people all over the world.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah. I would say that. I think the estimated loss in American jobs alone from what I would consider bringing the development sector to its knees is 52,000 jobs.

[Sam Sanders]

Wow.

[Zach Stafford]

More than that around the world, because we have implementing partners. And these massive implementing partners, 5,000, 6,000, 10,000 employees that are doing amazing work around the world, again, employing Americans and others. They've all been furloughed because they can't, you know, they are not getting paid. They can't pay their own bills. So in addition to the USAID folks that are losing their jobs without being able to plan or even put in two weeks, everyone in the development sector that I know is just sitting here going, what do we do?

[Sam Sanders]

I mean, because USAID is a global agency in a sense. Right. It's obviously American, but the extent the reach of it is global. There's the chaos that this visits upon American workers. You say, but it's also America's reputation abroad.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Can you talk about what the implications are for America's reputation?

[Zach Stafford]

I think people forget that something like USAID is a critical tool in America's national security toolbox. And when you're looking at national security, you're looking at keeping the American people safer, secure and more prosperous, which is what the lines that are coming out of our current State Department. And USA does that through things like soft power. And it's almost like preventive care. You go to the doctor, you get preventive appointments, and then you get reactive appointments. And the more preventive appointments you get, the less reactive you have to be. So the more we invest in these things like development, the more we're investing not only in the health and security and human dignity of people around the world. But you're also building currency with countries around the world and you're also protecting truly the safety of the American people. It's devastating to see that this is not only being dismantled, but there might not be an alternative.

[Sam Sanders]

What's the emotional tenor of the conversations you've been having with current, I don't know, former USAID employees? What's that like?

[Zach Stafford]

I think that the emotional tenor is weight and shock and truly sadness. These people are public servants who never ask for recognition. They never ask for anything except that they do a good job for people around the world. And they see that every single day. We functionally see that every single day. And what hurts the most is when you think about those people in the field that are no longer getting this life saving care, this life saving food, these life saving shelter, maybe the fear too, that we're abandoning them and it's not our choice to do that. And we, I think, hold honor and dignity and trust to a very, very high standard here at usaid. It's part of the culture and the mission. So to feel like that's been broken without your input is something that is just so incredibly heavy. I think it's a profound sadness that cuts deep and is compounded by the fact that most of these people are also looking for their own livelihood now. And there's this sense of, you cry in the elevator because if they see you crying out of it, they know where you stand. And that's really heavy.

[Sam Sanders]

If you were launching a soft coup, you'd go in there, you'd storm the gates, you'd take over buildings that weren't ones that you necessarily had access to before. You'd start firing people en masse. You'd institute loyalty tests, you'd replace top leadership. All those things are happening. And I wonder, as someone who is of this place, you know, who was a spokesperson for one of these agencies that's directly under assault by this administration, what it feels like to be here.

[Zach Stafford]

In this moment, this place represents truly like the best of the American people. And it represents the empathy that I know we have. It represents the kindness and the gratitude and the respect for human dignity that we have. And I believe that we are all of this place, we are all of those values, we are all of that experiment on how to be kind to one another and run a country. And, you know, we look at democracy as an experiment. And I think that it is heavy and momentous to be here in this time. But times of challenge are not unusual. They might feel momentous like this specifically or unique when you're in the moment. And so I can only speak to this moment. But I do believe that we all have to engage with our democracy at every level so that you don't watch something, you know, from the sidelines. And they say, wow, you know, how could that happen?

[Sam Sanders]

Hours after we talked with Dry, that answer came in the form of an email sent to USAID staff informing all direct hires around the globe, with few exceptions, that they would be placed on leave on Wednesday. The American Foreign Service Association, A union representing 1,800 foreign service officers working for USAID, called this a reckless decision by the Trump administration and one that would impose an enormous financial and logistical burden costing American taxpayers tens of millions of dollars. The group also announced it would be seeking legal action, though it's unclear what exactly that would entail. Dry, who was contracted as a USAID speechwriter, found out she, too, lost her job. She told our producer that she was sad and worried, not just for her future, but for the future of all the people we, as in usaid, serve. We'll be back after a short break.

[Saeed Jones]

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[Sam Sanders]

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[Saeed Jones]

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[Sam Sanders]

Right now, tens of thousands of federal workers are caught in limbo, unsure of whether they still have a job. Many have already been shown the door. Others are receiving intimidating emails urging them to resign. It's all part of a purge launched by the Trump administration two weeks ago. A purge designed to upend the core of the American system of government. Activists are calling it a coup. History books may very well call it the Friday Night Massacre.

[Saeed Jones]

Mounting criticism from both sides of the aisle after President Trump's Friday night firings of 18 inspectors general, removing the watchdogs from federal agencies tasked with monitoring for fraud, waste and abuse.

[Sam Sanders]

These weren't political appointees refusing to follow a president's controversial order. This was the president Deciding to purge 18 independent watchdogs meant to keep the executive branch in check. The mass firing wasn't just controversial. It may very well be illegal. In 2022, Congress passed a law mandating that the president give lawmakers on Capitol Hill a 30 day notice if the President intends to remove any inspector general. The president is also required by law to provide a substantial rationale for firing an ig. Trump did neither. In order to fully grasp how unprecedented this all is, I sat down with one of the inspector generals who was fired, a man who was hired by Donald Trump himself.

[Saeed Jones]

So the Commerce Building is this red one right here?

[Sam Sanders]

That's where you worked for how many years?

[Saeed Jones]

Five and a half years. In that building up at the corner, you see where that, like, balustrade is going off the top? That one?

[Sam Sanders]

That's where you are.

[Saeed Jones]

And then the Department of the Interior, which is. I never actually looked at it from this angle. It's one of those three over there. Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

So this is your hood?

[Saeed Jones]

This is it. Spent a lot of time on the ellipse.

[Sam Sanders]

This is Mark Greenblatt, the former Inspector General for the Department of the Interior. He and I spoke from a room that overlooked the National Mall. And as it turns out, several places he had worked over the years. Trump nominated Greenblatt back in 2019 and spoke highly of his work at Interior. Like the time in June of 2021 when Greenblatt's department cleared Trump of wrongdoing after determining that the U.S. park Police had not forcibly removed protesters from Lafayette Square near the White House to make way for Trump's now infamous Bible photo op during the summer of racial justice protests in 2020. But Greenblatt's career as an IG came to a screeching halt on that fateful Friday night.

[Saeed Jones]

So on Friday night, this is a couple of weeks ago, I received an email around 7:30 at night and it was entitled White House Notification. And instantly my heart sank because I knew that was not good.

[Sam Sanders]

Were you on alert for that?

[Saeed Jones]

So certainly over the course of the election period, and then once Trump won and during the transition period, there was open discussion about whether he would be firing any or all of the inspectors general. In fact, his former chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, wrote an op ed in the New York Post expressly calling for him to fire inspectors general. So there was open discussion about this both in the OIG community, in Congress and out sort of in the world. So we were on notice that this could happen. But still, when you see it, it's just so stark that even if you're mentally prepared, it's still, you don't internalize it until you see it there in a two sentence email saying that you're terminated effective immediately.

[Sam Sanders]

I mean, do you have the email still on your phone?

[Saeed Jones]

I do.

[Sam Sanders]

Can you see it?

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Dear Mark, on behalf of President Donald J. Trump, I'm writing to inform you that due to changing priorities, your position as Inspector General of Department of Interior has terminated, effective immediately. Thank you for your service. Wow. What was your first call? I mean, other than to your family? Were you reaching out to fellow IGs?

[Saeed Jones]

Absolutely. So that was actually on my work phone and on my personal phone, I had actually a text from another IG who was telling me that she had gotten removed as well. So this is when I said, okay, this is gonna get real bad. So then I called the head of the Council of Inspectors General and I said, mike, I've just been fired. And he said, me too.

[Sam Sanders]

Wow.

[Saeed Jones]

And that's when I knew this was going to be really, really bad. I knew this was going from an isolated one off of me and maybe a couple of folks to a widespread massacre, to a purge, to a purge.

[Sam Sanders]

There seems to be like, there are two levels of it. It seems like there's the thank you for your service question mark aspect, but then also what it represents in terms of oversight and what happens to the country next. What does this look like to you? Knowing, knowing the sort of dynamics of this office?

[Saeed Jones]

These positions were designed to be apolitical and not change with administrations. Our whole design, our whole construct is based on us being apolitical. Nonpartisan. We don't ride with the pendulum swinging back and forth, you know, with whichever way the wind is blowing.

[Sam Sanders]

Does he have to appoint new IGs?

[Saeed Jones]

No. I mean, we've had long term vacancies in IG positions. For example, at the Department of the Interior, before I got there, it was vacant for close to 11 years.

[Sam Sanders]

Wow. Well, so, I mean, workshop this with me, because if I'm the layman that hears, well, you know, there have been departments, agencies without IGs for extended periods of time. Nothing bad happened. Why does it matter if these positions sit empty after Trump's purge?

[Saeed Jones]

So, first, an acting ig, like what's happening now with the vacant spots, they are fully empowered to take actions. But when you have someone who's been confirmed by the Senate, nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate, there is a bit of more stature that comes with that. And you also get the ability to make long term changes. You can more robustly manage the office and lead the office. And there's a marked difference between what an acting can do versus what a permanent IG can do. And that's the critical thing, is are they going to be in a weakened state as an acting IG throughout all the major departments in the federal government, all the cabinet level departments in the federal government now have effectively all of them have acting IGs. Are they going to be necessarily more weak in what they're doing? Are they going to be willing to speak truth to power as the job requires? And if you have a weak IG or Office of Inspector General, then they're not doing what they need to do to ferret out waste, fraud and abuse? I mean, the key question is, are they going to be watchdogs or are they going to be lap dogs?

[Sam Sanders]

We sit here in Washington D.C. where there are protests in front of the Office of Personnel Management. Elon Musk says we're shutting down usaid. There are protests over there. The Department of Treasury now has effectively given over a lot of important information and record keeping to members of doge, which is not actually a government agency. It's sort of a group led by Elon Musk and a group of his acolytes. It feels like, and I don't mean to be heavy handed, it almost feels like a slow motion coup. Right? Like, am I overreacting when I think of this as something just extraordinarily dramatic that's playing out within the federal government?

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, no, these are dramatic changes. There's no question about it. And I think, you know, President Trump and his Allies would argue that's why he was elected. And, you know, we'll have to see. We'll have to see. Is this, you know, a week or two or three of robust activity in key principle ways, or is this gonna be, you know, a sustained movement, if you will? But I think there's no question these are enormous changes afoot, and they feel empowered and that they were voted in to affect these kind of broad muscle movements inside the federal government. There's no question it's going to look very, very different going forward.

[Sam Sanders]

But as someone who's been in the federal government, are you alarmed by this?

[Saeed Jones]

Certainly by the removal of the 18 IGs, yes. That's alarming. And some of the other actions that we've seen are very aggressive. And this is going to be a total makeover of the federal government. This is going to change the way the federal government interacts with the American people and the world. And so I think we've gotta brace ourselves for that. But, yes, I mean, there's no question it's alarming. I think they would even argue they would like that characterization in the sense that I think they're trying to conduct a massive overhaul. And so I think they would appreciate, you know, that it would be alarming.

[Sam Sanders]

You say that government efficiency is, you know, that's your bag. That's what you've been dedicating your life to. And the fact is, Trump is rooting out the very people who focus on the thing that he says is job number one, two or three of his new administration. Right. He and Elon Musk develop the Department of Government Efficiency, and yet the people who are in charge with sort of manifesting that where the rubber meets the road, the people who are in charge of efficiency and cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse are the ones purged within the first week of the administration.

[Saeed Jones]

Well, I think there are two interpretations of it. One is that he had, you know, a lack of confidence in us as individuals.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Saeed Jones]

Or he's trying to remove the independent watchdogs and essentially emasculate the OIGs so that he can make over government without perceived roadblocks or speed bumps in the way. You know, in terms of the efficiency I mentioned, the Council of Inspectors General, the full name is the Council of the Inspectors General on Integrity and Efficiency. It is literally in our name. And so what I would argue is that we should be natural allies. There's a synergy between what we do every day and what they are attempting to do. And so I think the fact that the IG community and this effort, you know, to streamline and make government more efficient haven't quite aligned. And to the contrary, as you're saying, he fired 18 of us is, I think, a missed opportunity to harness the power of the IG community to effect the very changes he's hoping to effectively.

[Sam Sanders]

Or maybe he's not actually trying to affect those changes at all.

[Saeed Jones]

Well, you'll have to ask him.

[Sam Sanders]

Trump's moves to slash the size of the federal government and to rid a massive bureaucracy of people perceived to be his enemies has all unfolded with alarming speed and complete disregard for the system itself. Nobody knows what waits on the other side of this purge, what it will mean for the millions of people employed by the government, or for those who depend on it for basic services, or for the millions more who simply expect it to function day after day, year after year, no matter who is in charge. Because that's how the federal system works. It seems clear this week especially that President Trump is trying to break something fundamental to the American project. And if he ends up succeeding, well, what happens then? We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner. To get this show and other MSNBC podcasts ad free, be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. Trumpland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is J. Perez. Our crew is Enrique Larreal on audio and Liam lee and Katherine McNamara on camera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau and Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Matthew Alexander is the executive producer of Alex Wagner Tonight and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next time week.

[Saeed Jones]

Hi, my name is Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross on the TV series Suits and I'm.

[Sam Sanders]

Sarah Rafferty and I play Donna Paulson on Suits.

[Saeed Jones]

And we have a podcast called Sidebar where every week we watch and discuss an episode of the show.

[Sam Sanders]

Because here's the thing, neither of us have really watched it.

[Saeed Jones]

That's true. At least until now.

[Sam Sanders]

So we're going to cover all nine.

[Saeed Jones]

Seasons, share behind the scenes stories and.

[Sam Sanders]

Talk to our co stars and friends like Gina Torres and Aaron Korsh.

[Saeed Jones]

So look, if you love Suits, Amazing, this podcast is for you.

[Sam Sanders]

And if you've never watched Suits, also Amazing, you can join us and we'll watch it together.

[Saeed Jones]

I think we're going to have a lot of fun.

[Sam Sanders]

Listen to sidebar wherever you get your.

[Saeed Jones]

Podcasts and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.