← Trumpland with Alex Wagner
Trumpland with Alex Wagner
The truth about why fire hydrants lost pressure and ran dry during the Los Angeles fires
00:41:20
Martin Adams, former general manager of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, blows up some right-wing myths about the water supply in Pacific Palisades, and talks with Alex Wagner about the realities of municipal water systems and ideas for adapting a system built for occasional residential fires to deal with a large scale, community-wide fire.
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- [00:01]
Rachel Maddow
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [00:43]
Alex Wagner
Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.
- [00:45]
Rachel Maddow
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time, how do we strategically.
- [00:50]
Alex Wagner
Align ourselves to this moment of information.
- [00:53]
Alison Barber
This moment of transition in our country?
- [00:54]
Rachel Maddow
The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [01:01]
Alison Barber
Tonight, we are continuing to keep a close eye on the devastating wildfires that are burning across the greater Los Angeles area. For four days now, dry conditions and a powerful windstorm have fueled seven fires that so far have killed at least 11 people, including a 67 year old great grandfather of 10 named Anthony Mitchell, who was wheelchair bound and refused to leave behind his son Justin, who had cerebral palsy. Anthony's son told NBC News that the two men were waiting to be evacuated on Wednesday morning, but the Eaton fire in Altadena spread too quickly. Others reportedly died trying to protect homes that have been in their families for decades. 66 year old Victor Shaw was also killed in the Eaton fire. A family friend told KTLA that Shah's body was found on the side of a road with a garden hose in his hand. Right now, officials say the death toll is not yet known, the real one at least, as recovery efforts have only just begun and new brush fires like the Archer Fire, which broke out this morning in Granada Hills, they pose an active risk in terms of fighting these massive fires. The next 24 hours are going to be critical. Red flag warnings in Los Angeles were slated to be dropped just as we came on the air tonight, 9pm Eastern, 6pm Pacific. Confirmation from officials about those red flag warnings being dropped is expected imminently. That means that the intense Santa Ana winds, which in the past few days reached Hurricane 4 speeds, have finally begun to die down, at least for now. Forecasters at the National Weather Service expect the reprieve to last about 18 hours, giving firefighters and emergency responders a small window to contain the fires before winds are expected to pick back up again on Saturday and then Again on Monday, when the next Santa Ana wind event is forecast to begin. At this hour, firefighters are making considerable gains in containing some of the smaller fires, including the Lydia fire, which is now 75% contained, and the Kenneth, which are both over 30% contained. The Palisades fire, which was the first to erupt and was the largest fire at about 20,000 acres, is only 8% contained, while the Eaton fire in Altadena and Pasadena has burned roughly 14,000 acres and is only about 3% contained. To put the sheer breadth of the destruction into perspective, in just three days, the Los Angeles fires have devastated roughly 56 square miles. That's an area larger than the cities of San Francisco and Boston, and it is more than twice the size of Manhattan. Joining me now from Altadena, California, right near the Eaton fire, is NBC correspondent Ellison Barber. Ellison, thank you in advance for your reporting, and I very much hope you are staying safe out there. What can you tell us about the latest on the ground in Altadena?
- [03:57]
Ellison Barber
You know, look, Alex, people look at those numbers and they say 3% contained. But when we're looking around, we don't see as many big flames as we thought we saw before. We've heard from a lot of residents in this community that they're so frustrated that they can't come back into these areas that are still under mandatory evacuation orders. But let me try and show and explain to you a little bit of why this building, when we were driving by this about 4 hours ago, totally done, there was no smoke. It looked like this was completely under control and no fire to be seen. If you had asked me would I walk inside around this, I probably would have told you yes, because it looked like it was that settled. But look how quickly it's changed. This team on the ground, they've been here trying to put out what are hot spots inside of this fire, little flames that have been hidden underneath the debris, underneath the levels of this building that have popped up and reignited. They tell us over here there's a stairwell. There's also a basement in this building. And this fire team tells us that when they walked by, they could feel the heat, which we could feel earlier, but they had a feeling that, that because of their training, of course, they knew that there was something more underne. And there have been numerous pockets of hotspot, pockets of fires that have reignited inside of this building in the last couple of hours. And they've been working here diligently. And we'll watch our step as we walk a little back this way so I can show you some more to try and get it under control. But they say when people are asking questions about why they can't come back into these areas and assess the damage, maybe go back into their homes, the firefighters we've been talking to here, they say this is why is because they haven't been able to clear even buildings that maybe look from afar like they're okay to walk into because there's still all of this debris. And in a lot of these homes, there are basements, and inside of those basements, there can be these pockets of debris and fires. Like this one in the back here, These are hotspots. They keep popping up, and that's making it difficult for them to truly clear an area and tell a community that it's safe to come back inside. Even if the big flames that people saw at the beginning maybe don't exist in the exact parts of the community that they'd seen them in before, this is an example of what they're so worried about. Again, we were here four hours ago, and it looked like this building had nothing other than debris left. It didn't look like there were any sort of fires or anything still left, but it was wrong. And there are a lot of hot spots that have popped up from this one in the back to multiple ones in the front. The crew here telling us they will probably be working on this for at least the next couple of hours, in part because water is still an issue. There's a fire hydrant right across the street here. They're not using it because there's not enough water, not enough pressure for them to be able to pull from here in this part of town. Instead, they are using a tanker that has water to pull the water from that. See, they should be able to use this across the street. They can't because so many fire teams and crews have been pulling from the water. We've heard fire officials and community members talking a lot about this in recent days. They haven't had enough water here, and essentially they're out. So they're working and having tankers of water come, bring them water so this team can stay here and try and fight this fire. Up the road, though, three more instances that look exactly like this where people are dealing with the same thing, different teams that are spread thin because there are so many hotspots and pockets in addition to the main fires and blazes that are so visual that they're trying to get under control. If this was a normal Tuesday and this was the only building that had caught on fire, you would probably have a four or five alarm fire call where you'd have multiple fire trucks and engines here fighting this. But they don't have that because there are so many different pockets. There's just the one team here, four, five firemen maybe, that are fighting this fire alone, trying to get it under control, and they've already been here working for the better part of an hour and they say the work here for this building alone is far from over. Alex.
- [07:43]
Alison Barber
Just grinding work on the part of those hero firefighters. Alison Barber, NBC Correspondent Great to have you reporting for us, Allison. Really, really helpful. Please stay safe out there. In addition to fighting all of these actual fires this week, officials in Los Angeles have had to battle a firestorm of misinformation. For example, this fake AI generated image of the Hollywood sign on fire that went viral on Wednesday. Now, I can tell you that the Hollywood sign was not on fire then and it is not on fire now. So the people that live below the Hollywood sign are not currently in danger. But this kind of misinformation is clearly very dangerous. What is happening in Los Angeles right now is still an active emergency. So keeping people informed with factual information is a matter of public safety. Beyond viral hoaxes like the Hollywood sign catching fire, the most prominent misinformation about the fires in Los Angeles right now is political.
- [08:40]
Marty Adams
This is a true tragedy and it's.
- [08:42]
Alison Barber
A mistake of the governor and you.
- [08:44]
Marty Adams
Could say the administration.
- [08:46]
Alison Barber
They don't have any water.
- [08:47]
Marty Adams
They didn't have water in the fire hydrants.
- [08:49]
Alison Barber
They don't have water. The problem President Elect Trump was referring to there on Wednesday is a real thing that did happen on Tuesday night. While LA's 9,000 firefighters all simultaneously fought multiple massive wildfires, some of the biggest LA has ever seen, the fire hydrants did lose water pressure. The system simply could not handle that many fires all at once. But rather than trying to figure out how to help or how to improve the systems, conservatives spread misinformation in order to play the blame game. Early Wednesday morning, Trump was already blaming California's Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom, referring to him as Gavin Newscomb, and claiming that Newsom had refused to sign a document Trump called the Water Restoration Declaration that would have apparently allegedly given LA enough water to fight the fires. No such document exists. Trump apparently made it up to score political points, and conservative pundits quickly followed suit, blaming everything from fish conservation efforts to Native Americans to diversity programs.
- [10:00]
Alex Wagner
California can't get enough water to fight fires because of a stupid fish. Gavin's literally tearing down Western civilization for fish and Indians. Nothing against the Indians. I love the Indians.
- [10:10]
Christy Greenberg
But really, it turns out that in recent years, Louisiana's fire chief has made not filling the fire hydrants top priority, but diversity.
- [10:20]
Alex Wagner
This right here, ladies and gentlemen, this is the leadership of the LA Fire Department. I sure hope they know what they're doing.
- [10:27]
Alison Barber
Instead of focusing on making sure there's water in the fire hydrants, the Los.
- [10:32]
Alex Wagner
Angeles Fire Department battalion chief was more focused on racism and making sure there.
- [10:38]
Rachel Maddow
Are enough women working at the fire department.
- [10:43]
Alison Barber
For the record, the reason LA's hydrants went dry on Tuesday night had nothing to do with fish conservation or Native Americans or how many women work at the fire department. All of it is beside the point. And it's not just inappropriate to spread that kind of stuff right now. It's also potentially dangerous because there was a real problem on Tuesday night. Hydrants really did run out of water. And to be able to avoid disasters like this in the future, Los Angeles is going to have to figure out if anything actually did go wrong beyond the system just being overwhelmed and whether or not something went wrong, the system will clearly have to be improved, and that means getting to the bottom of what actually happened and not pushing partisan lies. Today, not only did California Governor Newsom personally invite President Elect Trump to come to California, inviting Trump to work with him on emergency efforts rather than political smears, but Governor Newsom also called for an independent investigation into the loss of water pressure on Tuesday night, announcing, we need answers to ensure this does not happen again and we have every resource available to fight these catastrophic fires. Joining me now to help us understand what we really know about what happened on Tuesday is Marty Adams, who is the former General manager of the LA Department of Water and Power. Mr. Adams, thank you so much for being with us tonight. Your thoughts here are so critical, critical, so crucial in understanding how the situation became what it is. Did conservation efforts pose a problem here? Did they divert necessary water? Would it have made a difference if we did not have those conservation efforts in place?
- [12:22]
Marty Adams
You know, conservation has been important for the overall water supply in the city, but there's honestly adequate water supply to fight any fire in the city of la. There's enough water in storage, enough water on our aqueducts that we can fight any kind of fire. The challenge becomes getting the water from where it's stored to where the fire is. And that's what you really saw, particularly in the Palisades. And again, what we just saw the reporter talk about now to Dina, the Same kind of thing. You have water systems designed to fight fires based on a structure fire or multiple structure fires, but no water system anywhere in America designed to fight an entire community on fire at once. And it basically just pulls so much water out that the system cannot keep the pressure up as it goes. And then, then strands our firefighters without adequate water, water supply and the pressure that they need. They like to their jobs.
- [13:11]
Alison Barber
Do you think a lot of people have been focusing on the Santa Ynez Reservoir, which is a 117 million gallon water storage complex in the heart of the Palisades that was offline, apparently during the fires because of some necessary upgrades and repairs to the reservoir. I know you were quoted in the New York Times saying that something like an operational reservoir like Santa Ynez would have been helpful initially to more fully feed water to the system in the area. But maybe that it eventually those tanks would have been drained in a fire that was consuming so many homes at once. Can you elaborate on that? Because I know there's been a lot of speculation about this being one of the critical sort of malfunctions in the system. It doesn't sound like you think that.
- [13:54]
Marty Adams
Yeah. So the water to Palisades all starts what we call the Stone Canyon Reservoir. It's a large reservoir complex behind UCLA in the Bel Air area. And that water flows west out Sunset Boulevard into the Palisades other communities. And so that's the source of all the water to that area. The Santa Ynez Reservoir is a terminal reservoir. It's a dead end reservoir at the end of that line, much lower than the main reservoir. And water would be put in San Reservoir. It would help during high summer demands. It would also be there in case there was a break in the pipeline. And you want to keep water in that community while the pipe repair is being made. But it's really very much Little Brother compared to the other reservoir that's feeding all the water now, Santa Ana, as my understanding has been, out of service for repair. The COVID There may have been a certain amount of water that could come out and help the system and have been there. But the reality is that the water flowing in the pipe reduced the pressure so much because so many demands on it that you really couldn't pump the pump stations to the higher elevations. And that's where we saw a lot of firefighters struggling for water supply. Even if there was more water available at the bottom with San Diego's reservoir, the pump stations are still a fixed amount and you might have had a little bit more water get there. But by and large, as soon as more units started hooking up to the hydrants, you would have been exactly where you were in the first place. And that's with dry hydrants, basically because trying to pull so much water out of the system, so much more than what it's ever designed to handle. We have fires in the Palisades almost every year and they're always fought successfully. They're fought from aircraft in the surrounding hillsides as well as by ground forces protecting the structures. And it's always been successful. There's no reason to believe that the operation currently that was there wouldn't have been successful. And the whole system's been fed normally with the reservoir out of service. But what we saw was completely different than anybody ever seen before. We've never seen to go from house to house block to block through a neighborhood. And that kind of fire has never been anticipated or provided for by anybody's infrastructure.
- [15:57]
Alison Barber
Well, it sort of sounds like though the infrastructure needs to be reconceived. Given that we are in the age of climate change and these ferocious fires are increasingly more likely, do you think that that's going to be part of the rebuild effort? Are you optimistic that a, a system can be built that might be able to tackle fires of these magnitude?
- [16:17]
Marty Adams
Yeah, Alex, I think you had a really good point there. Is that we do need to look differently. You know, we saw the Paradise Fire. We never seen a community wiped out by fire. We saw what happened in Malibu and Ventura County a month ago. We saw now both Palisades and Altadena. What we thought would never happen has happened several times. And so I do think we need to look differently at what we're going to get thrown at us by Mother Nature. The fact that the dry climate and then the high winds provides a different, a different kind of risk than what we've seen before. I don't know that we'll build out a domestic water system by itself that meets those kind of demands because there are flip sides. If you build too much storage in the system, you may not need to fight a fire, but you will have water quality problems. And so there's trade offs and things that have to be taken into account. But there are solutions coming on the market. I know of a company that's looking at fire solutions and wildfire areas, how we might be able to incorporate those in the city where we can maybe move more water from point A to point B, provide additional pumps, something that's temporary, that can be put in place where it's needed because it's not just Palisades, it's Topanga Canyon, it's Porter Ranch in the Valley, east la, Griffith Park, Bel Air, all these areas are at risk and you know, from a potential wildfire. So what you look at is a solution that you could use anywhere without having to rebuild the entire system all at once.
- [17:35]
Alison Barber
It is so invaluable hearing your thoughts on this and getting that information. Marty Adams, former General Manager of the LA Department of Water and Power, thank you sir, so much for clearing a lot of stuff up up for us tonight. Really appreciate your time.
- [17:47]
Marty Adams
My pleasure.
- [17:48]
Alison Barber
Coming up, when will we see Special counsel Jack Smith's final report into Donald Trump's January 6th election interference? When? Well, Mary McCord might know and she's going to join me coming up. But first, Trump made history today by becoming the first president ever to hold the title of convicted felon. I will be joined by two people who were in the courtroom when it was handed down. That's next. Next.
- [18:19]
Rachel Maddow
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series Ultra, Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Get all of Rachel Maddow's original chart topping podcast series in one place with Rachel Maddow Presents, Binge the Entire Bagman Series, seasons one and two of Ultra and every episode of Deja Muse, along with all of Rachel Maddow's new podcasts to come. These are untold stories of our country's past that could help us understand the state of our country today. Search for Rachel Maddow Presents and follow to listen now. For ad free listening, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [19:28]
Alex Wagner
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [19:34]
Rachel Maddow
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for MSNBC Daily at msnbc.com.
- [19:52]
Alison Barber
To be clear, the protections afforded the.
- [19:55]
Alex Wagner
Office of the President are not a mitigating factor.
- [20:01]
Andrea Bernstein
They do not reduce the seriousness of.
- [20:03]
Alex Wagner
The crime or justify its commission in any way. The protections are, however, a legal mandate which, pursuant to the rule of law, this court must respect and follow.
- [20:20]
Alison Barber
President elect Donald Trump is now a convicted felon. But unlike most convicted felons, Trump doesn't have to go to jail or pay a fine or do community service. Judge Juan Marchan gave Trump an unconditional discharge, meaning Trump will still be able to vote, but he cannot own a gun. And he will still have to submit a DNA sample to the New York State crime database. And despite all of the incoming president's efforts to stop the sentencing and his vow to appeal it, the stain of the words convicted felon for now remains attached to the name Donald J. Trump. Joining me now is Christy Greenberg, a former federal Prosecutor in the U.S. attorney's office for the Southern District of New York, and Andrea Bernstein, journalist who covers Trump legal matters for npr. Both were in the courtroom today. And I am eager to get the birds at the meet the front, the front row view of what happened to Andrea. What was it like to be in there? And what can you tell me about the mood?
- [21:15]
Andrea Bernstein
I mean, it was sort of like it's always been. There was a lot of reporters, there's a lot of prosecutors. But on the defense side, there was a single Trump lawyer, bound to be a top official in the Justice Department. And then via video link, Trump's lawyer, Todd Blanche, who was going to be the number two person in the Justice Department. And it was not like any sentencing in a white collar case I've ever been to, because normally there's a plea for leniency. The lawyers say, look, we have 800 letters showing what a great character this person is. The defendant says, I'm so sorry. None of that, none of that happened. Trump was defiant and did the same things he's been doing. Trashed the prosecutor, trashed the process that got him there, and then got this unconditional discharge that said he did not want this sentencing to happen. Clearly, he went all the way to the Supreme Court to block it and is not happy that he goes into the White House with this designation and these 34 felony convictions.
- [22:12]
Alison Barber
His reaction in court today, we have some audio that I'd like to play. Was definitely giving unhappy. Let's take a listen. It's been a political witch hunt.
- [22:22]
Marty Adams
It was done to damage my reputation.
- [22:25]
Alison Barber
So that I'd lose the election. And obviously that didn't work. The fact is that I'm totally innocent. I did nothing wrong. This has been a weaponization of government.
- [22:36]
Marty Adams
They call it lawfare.
- [22:38]
Alison Barber
Never happened to any extent like this, but never happened in our country before. That's not typically the behavior of someone who's just lost the case in court and is going to sentencing. Right, Christi? I mean, just as a refresher. That's unusual.
- [22:51]
Christy Greenberg
No, generally, as Andrea said, you see a defendant who comes in and you learn something new. Maybe there's some remorse or acceptance of responsibility, some rehabilitation, compassion for the people in their lives. You learn something about good that they've done and that none of that was there. I think he violated the gag order is one thing. He specified one of the prosecutors on Alvin Bragg's team and singled him out specifically and said, you know, this is the guy from doj. And then he went to the, you know, he was at the New York AG's office, and this is the guy that they got to make a move on me. And that's prohibited under the gag order. You're allowed to criticize Alvin Bragg, not members of his team. He also attacked Alvin Bragg for. Just as you said, he's trying to. He was just trying to get me to lose the election. And then, you know, he sounds like a broken record. It's this whole, like, I was treated so unfairly. I'm a professional victim. And then. And then he looked kind of on the screen like he looked bored at times, like he wasn't engaged. This is your own sentencing. And then he's just kind of rambling about people he didn't identify about, you know, things he's heard and people, you know, things he's read, but, like, not really identifying what it is. And then he starts praising the conservative legal pundits on Fox. He's virtually heard of nobody who thought that the case should have been brought. Clearly, he doesn't want watch a lot of msnbc. And it's just, you know, it was kind of this rambling, unhinged thing. And he reminded me of the crazy defendant that you see at a sentencing who's, you know, who's going to go to jail, not the person who's going to be the next President of the United States. I mean, it was unsettling. And to know that this is the person getting leniency when none of the. None of the things that he exhibited at that sentencing would lead you to that result, other than the fact that he's going to be occupying the highest office of the land. Ye. But it's disconcerting. It makes people really question. I mean, you really can't say no one is above the law. Now, today showed that Donald Trump is, in fact, above the law, at least the criminal law.
- [24:54]
Alison Barber
Well, and yet he, as you point out, he really didn't want this day to happen. As insignificant as the punishment is, he didn't want it to happen. Michael Cohen, who served time for this crime. Right. Was on with my friend Chris hayes earlier at 8pm and he brought. I actually wanna just play some sound from that interview. Cause he makes a pretty strong argument. Well, let's let Michael Cohen say it in his own words. Let's take a listen. I hate to say this. I agree with Todd Blanche and I agree with Donald Trump in this.
- [25:24]
Christy Greenberg
If there's no accountability and there's no.
- [25:27]
Alison Barber
Deterrence factor because there is no repercussion for the 34 criminal counts, I don't see the point in having the conviction. They probably could have and should have just dismissed the case. What do you think of that, Andrea?
- [25:42]
Andrea Bernstein
I have a lot to say about it.
- [25:43]
Alison Barber
Yeah, please.
- [25:44]
Andrea Bernstein
So. Because first of all, I do think it's meaningful to have this felony conviction. It would have been worse if it was sort of frozen in amber and unsettled forever, which is sort of what the alternative seemed until last night was going to be. But this courtroom, the testimony unveiled before us truths that we never knew about Donald Trump's White House, a little bit about his business, a lot about the way that he won the 2016 election, all of this testimony, all that we learned, that has value setting things down on the record. And I think we're increasingly going into a period where I think it's pretty clear that we are not going to be able to rely on legal institutions to bring about justice as we've understood it. But we have this important tool of truth telling. And I do think a lot of truth came out in this trial. So I wouldn't say it wasn't worthwhile.
- [26:33]
Alison Barber
It was a hell of beans.
- [26:34]
Andrea Bernstein
And, you know, the judge was also obviously not happy. I mean, he sentenced Trump's former chief financial officer to jail for essentially lying on behalf of the Trump Organization. This is not the outcome that I think he wanted. But he said, you know, he's the most. He's a very deliberative judge. You can actually see him thinking in front of you in many cases. And he came to the conclusion that there was this election, he is going to the White House. I cannot make him serve jail time. So all I'm going to say is this was a very serious crime. It was all the more, all the worse because it was done by the would be and once leader of the free world. And for that reason, I'm not going to sort of buy into the idea that this wasn't serious, that it was frivolous, but that this is what the law says I can do. So it is what I am going to do.
- [27:26]
Alison Barber
Yeah, I feel like Marshawn was looking at history here. Right. That, that though Trump was not going to immediately be punished, it was. We're setting a standard for upholding the.
- [27:36]
Andrea Bernstein
Law is Michael Cohen knew those things, but we didn't, the world didn't. And we got to learn them in this trial.
- [27:42]
Alison Barber
Michael Cohen also, I believe, asked Joe Biden for a pardon and revealed that on Chris Hayes show as well. Donald Trump is going to ask for an appeal. He says he said untruth social today. This was in a despicable charade. Now that, that it's over, we will appeal this hoax, which has no merit. I mean, what do we think of the appeals process for a sitting president?
- [28:05]
Christy Greenberg
Yeah, I'm not quite sure how that works. I don't know if he will appeal while he's sitting. I mean, his two lawyers are going personal now, are going to be the number two and number three. So he would need to get other personal lawyers. They can't have, you know, wear both hats, even though I think in effect they may actually do just that. But I do want to come back to that pardon piece because. Because we have 10 days, 10 days where Joe Biden has the power of the pardon. There is a list Kash Patel has said of here are the enemies we know, the people that, you know, potentially incoming AG Bondi has said, we're going to investigate the investigators, prosecute the prosecutors like they are telling us what they're going to do. They said it today at the sentencing. Todd Blanche talked about the prosecution in Alvin Bragg. So did Donald Trump. We can't be surprised when they actually then try to make these people's lives hell. Like Joe Biden can stop this if they want to pardon. If there are people like Michael Cohen who said, I'm worried about retribution, here's what they've said they're going to do. To me, I don't want to be dealing with investigations for years and deal with the money and the strain of that. I really think it is something Joe Biden needs to strongly consider this idea that norms are the things that we should be focused on right now. Nothing about today was normal. We're past the point of norms. He's about to shatter the norms when he comes in, in 10 days. So we need some urgency here and we need people to, you know, maybe not pull their punches, but actually try and use any tools in our toolbox to get some kind of fair outcome when we can.
- [29:33]
Andrea Bernstein
Quick, quick nugget from today. Todd Blanche said this was a politicized prosecution. I think the president agrees with me that this should never happen again. So we're about to find out.
- [29:44]
Alison Barber
Okay, well, we'll see. T minus 10 days. Christy Greenberg, Andrea Bernstein, thank you guys both for joining me tonight. Really appreciate you.
- [29:53]
Andrea Bernstein
Thank you.
- [29:54]
Alison Barber
Still ahead this evening, a blockbuster final jobs report for President Biden is setting the bar really high for the incoming commander in chief. How about that? But first, an appeals court could clear the way for the public to see Special Counsel Jack Smith's final report into January 6th at any moment. So why hasn't it done, done so yet? We will discuss that coming up next.
- [30:24]
Rachel Maddow
Eamonn on MSNBC is now available as a podcast. Every Saturday and Sunday, host Eamon Mohadeen reads between the lines of the week's biggest stories, spotlighting the pressing issues facing our country, our world and and those fighting to solve them.
- [30:38]
Ellison Barber
We are tracking the fallout across the Middle East.
- [30:41]
Rachel Maddow
Tonight, search for Amen wherever you're listening and follow and for ad free listening to this show and other MSNBC podcasts, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [30:53]
Alex Wagner
Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [30:54]
Alison Barber
This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? We're sharing the first chapter of my.
- [30:58]
Alex Wagner
New book, the Sirens Call, how attention became the world's most endangered resource.
- [31:03]
Rachel Maddow
To live at this moment in the.
- [31:04]
Alison Barber
World, both online and off, is to find oneself endlessly wriggling on the mast, fighting for control of her very being.
- [31:13]
Alex Wagner
Against the ceaseless siren calls of the people and devices and corporations and malevolent.
- [31:19]
Alison Barber
Actors trying to trap it. That's this week on why is this Happening?
- [31:22]
Alex Wagner
Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now.
- [31:24]
Alison Barber
And follow. Last night, we brought you the breaking news that a federal appeals court had rejected Donald Trump's attempt to block the release of special counsel Jack Smith's report on Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. And when that news broke, we told you that the report could be released as soon as this Sunday. But just after we got off the air, Jack Smith's team filed a motion with that court arguing it should be allowed to release the report immediately. Now, we are currently awaiting the court's decision on that issue. And depending on how the court rules the special Counsel's report on January 6 could be released at any moment. But Trump's lawyers, in their efforts to block the report, have already given us some insight into what it contains. According to a letter from Trump's lawyers, the report identifies Trump as the head of the criminal conspiracies, and it includes what Trump's lawyers call attacks on other anticipated members of President Trump's incoming administration. It also contains criticism of Elon Musk's social media platform X for stonewalling investigators efforts to obtain Trump's data from the site. Joining us now is Mary McCord, a former senior Justice Department official and the co host of the newly rebooted Main justice podcast, which I'm sure is as indispensable as prosecuting Donald Trump was. Mary first of all, why is the Justice Department fighting to get this report released ASAP rather than Sunday or Monday when it would be free without any legal encumbrances to be released?
- [33:05]
Mary McCord
Yes, I'm not sure it's so much about these two days because at this point, one day has already, you know, ticked away of the three. I think that in many ways what the Department of Justice was trying to do is resolve what seems to be some confusion, at least between about whether the Department of Justice had actually asked the 11th Circuit to vacate Judge Cannon's injunction when they opposed the Walt Nauta, Carlos de Oliveira. Those are Trump's original co defendants in the Mar A Lago case when when DOJ had opposed their motion in the 11th Circuit for an injunction and DOJ was basically saying, look, we are renewing what we asked for already, which was that the injunction not be filed and that a ruling that Judge Cannon Cannon's injunction was unlawful and essentially 11th Circuit. What you already did last night was deny the motion for an emergency injunction or any injunction. And therefore you did already rule that Judge Cannon's injunction was wrongly granted and therefore, you know, there should not be any impediment to releasing this special report. So this whole litigation honestly parallels before Judge Cannon in the district court and in the 11th Circuit has become, I think, a little bit of and I'm just going to use my hands a little bit like this with now Den Oliveira interpreting things one way, Jack Smith and the government, I should really say the government, because Jack Smith isn't on this interpreting things another way. And the 11th Circuit, it's a little bit unclear what they think they have done. So I think that the that the government was really responding to the 11th Circuit saying government, if you want to vacate that Judge Cannon Judge injunction, file an emergency notice of appeal. And that's what they did.
- [35:03]
Alison Barber
Right. So just to be clear, because we didn't explain the Judge Cannon of this all, because this is unusually complicated, but effectively, Federal District Court Judge Aileen Cannon has ruled in favor of what Trump and his allies want, which is to keep these reports under seal and the 11 temporarily. But the 11th Circuit is basically saying, you know, they can be made public after Judge Cannon's injunction expires on Sunday or Monday, depending on which timing you go with. Is that right?
- [35:30]
Mary McCord
Well, they don't say those words, but that's one interpretation of it.
- [35:34]
Alison Barber
Right. And of course, go ahead.
- [35:37]
Mary McCord
Before Judge Cannon, Nowta and D. Oliveira are actually arguing, oh, no, no, Judge Cannon now you should extend your injunction even longer, while now the government's new, you know, new appeal gets handled. So this is like, this is why I said this is like parties shifts, ships passing in the night and not understanding each other. And I don't know that that is accidental. I do think that, I think the government's interpretation of what the 11th Circuit did is the better interpretation. And I think what Walt Na and Carlos de Oliveira and Donald Trump, by attempting to intervene, are trying to do is trying to sort of obfuscate things, make it seem like Judge Cannon still has something in front of her that she can hang on to. And I don't think that's ultimately going to be successful, but it is certainly delaying things right now.
- [36:32]
Alison Barber
Mary McCord, it's a complicated world out there. We don't have the report yet. I'm confident next week when we see you next, we might just have it. Thank you for joining me this Friday evening. My pleasure. Still ahead tonight, the state of the Biden economy and what it means for Trump's big promises. That's next. Stay with us.
- [37:00]
Marty Adams
This morning's jobs report. More than 250,000 jobs in December. In four years, the economy created 16.6 million new jobs, the most in any single presidential term. I believe the economy I'm leaving is the best in the world and stronger than ever for all Americans. So I think that's what we have. We'll see what the next president does.
- [37:23]
Christy Greenberg
We sure are.
- [37:25]
Alison Barber
That was President Biden today, announcing a seriously strong jobs report as he heads out of office. In December, the unemployment rate dropped just over 4%. For context, an outgoing president hasn't had lower unemployment numbers during his first term since Bill Clinton. In addition, the United states added over 250,000 jobs last month. That's 100,000 more than expected. The last time the U.S. economy lost jobs was in December of 2020, when Donald Trump was president. But as the Biden administration leaves the White House on an economic high note, the Trump administration is already trying to lower expectations. Donald Trump himself recently admitted that it will be very hard to lower grocery prices, despite that being one of his biggest campaign promises. Joining me now to discuss is Faz Shakir. He's the founder and executive director of A More Perfect Union. Faz, it's like, can we pull our hair anymore watching these two realities collide? Oh, all the lofty promises Trump made, highly unlikely to come to fruition, at least on the timetable he suggested. And here's Joe Biden getting almost zero credit, effectively being kicked out of office for one of the strongest economies, if not, not the strongest economy in the world. Up is down, down is up. What's your reaction?
- [38:39]
Alex Wagner
Where do we start with this one? So, one is that the strong economy is a result of choices made, policy choices that were made right when we were in the midst of pandemic. We wanted a strong labor market, therefore we put stimulus into people's pocketbooks. Child tax credit, unemployment insurance. We backstopped jobs through the paycheck protection program. All of that maintained that worker workers would be in a good position to negotiate for higher wages coming out of the pandemic. And as a result, you have had more jobs and higher wages start to increase. Obviously, inflation also occurred because corporations saw that you had more money in your pocketbooks, they went after it, they increased prices. One of the learnings of the next time is you got to have constraints on pricing power of corporations. So now here we are with generally a strong economy. Right. Alex is like, productivity is pretty high, wages are starting to go up, unemployment is pretty low, stock market is very high, corporate profits are high. So what problem are you trying to solve? That's the fundamental question. What issues could we solve for in a Democratic administration? We were offering specific problems that affect middle class people. It's big issues in their lives that continue to remain expensive, like cost of college, buying a house, renting those things we had specific policy solutions for. Trump is doing nothing. He's got no solutions for any of this stuff. Instead, you listen to them. They want to do doge cuts and they want to do tax breaks for the rich, which address none of the problems that this current economy is dealing with well.
- [40:04]
Alison Barber
And they also want to deport a huge part of America's working class, which is going to have an inflationary effect. I remember during the campaign cycle, Obama came out and said, you know, Donald Trump talks about his economy. I know it was a good economy because it was my economy. And I can see the same thing happening right now where it's like, you know, if, if the economy continues on this trajectory before Donald Trump enacts his billionaire tax cuts, Trump's going to hail himself as the economic king and it's the Biden economy he's inheriting. And yet the public over and over gives conservatives who inherit good Democratic economies. They give conservatives, Republicans the credit. When does the cycle end?
- [40:43]
Alex Wagner
You're right about it. But, but the fight to working class people is to kind of help explain and understand it. I think one of our lessons learned of this, Alex, is that with the last four years is a lot of people didn't know and understand some of the choices that were made. That's why I kind of go through some of those choices because the continual education needs to happen and the opportunities for education, again will happen with Trump because he's going to make certain decisions. Elon Musk himself, some of the billionaires that surround him are going to make choices in the tax flow fight and the tariffs fight that are going to be completely averse to middle class interests. And it will be again, an opportunity to say, hey, you know, what we were putting on the table is free community college. That would address your education woes. We were talking about building more affordable housing units in America would address the housing issues. We were talking about making sure that grocery prices go down by going after large corporate monopolies who have too much pricing power. That was the direction that we're on and that's the direction we could return to. To. I think we just, didyou know, we got to work on the politicking and telling a story because Trump's story, his storytelling to working class Americans through the McDonald's suit, his riding around in garbage trucks, his fights against corporations that he names by names. It's appealing in political theater, while the policy that accompanies it does not speak to middle class problems.
- [41:56]
Alison Barber
Well, right. And I guess I wonder if it actually needs to be part of it. I mean, do Democrats really just need to go on offense with the theater a little bit more?
- [42:05]
Alex Wagner
That's it. I mean, you've got to couple policy which we have with politics. So when you're doing these things to help middle class people's lives, remember that we are in fights and in tension. You know, how many times have we been in tension? Literally today you have Mark Zuckerberg going on Joe Rogan's show complaining about the Biden administration's regulations on him were too tough. You know, Elon Musk, one of the things that has animated him for the last many years. But Joe Biden was mean to me. Those are the issues of the billionaire class. They're telling you that they're upset with the direction that we were heading in. The problem and challenge for us is we lean back into that. Yeah, yeah. Mark Zuckerberg, that's right. We were going after you and here's why. Because you were abusing people's financial data through your platform. You were peddling misinformation that was dangerous to people's lives. You want to see a Democratic, Democratic Party embrace that fight with a billionaire class when we are in power, not just when we're on the outside fighting the oligarchic era.
- [43:01]
Alison Barber
Well, there can be a lot of opportunities for Democrats to go on offense in the immediate. So listen to Faz. That's what I always say. Faz Shakir, thank you for part of your Friday night, my friend.
- [43:11]
Alex Wagner
Happy Friday. Happy weekend to you.
- [43:13]
Alison Barber
Thank you. Coming up, remember when congressional Republicans said they had a star witness who would expose all the secret corruption by the, quote, biden crime family? None of it ever came to pass. But we do have an update about that star witness and it is not good for congressional Republicans. That's next. We've got one last piece of news to get to tonight, something that really flew under the radar this week. You will recall that throughout much of the Biden presidency, Republicans in Congress tried desperately to uncover some kind of corruption involving President Joe Biden and his son Hunter. And those Republicans thought they had the goods when they discovered an FBI informant who was willing to confirm some of the most salacious allegations against those two Bidens. He was named Alexander Smirnoff. And conservative media went crazy with the story. Fox News Sean Hannity did no fewer than 85 separate cable news segments about the informant Alexander Smirnoff and his allegations. But it turned out that none of it was true. None of it. In a spectacularly embarrassing debacle for congressional Republicans, their star witness was indicted for lying to the FBI. It was also revealed that some of Smirnoff's claims about the Biden family had allegedly come from Russian intelligence. And this week, the so called star witness, Alexander Smirnov was officially sentenced to six years in prison for lying to the FBI and for committing a little tax evasion as well. We leave you on that note. That is our show for tonight.
- [44:53]
Rachel Maddow
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