Trump's Lies, Ukraine's Truth

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trump's Lies, Ukraine's Truth" on Trumpland with Alex Wagner

Release Date: February 27, 2025
Host: Alex Wagner, MSNBC
Podcast Title: Trumpland with Alex Wagner
Episode Title: Trump's Lies, Ukraine's Truth

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Trump's Lies, Ukraine's Truth", Alex Wagner delves deep into the intricate web of misinformation surrounding the ongoing conflict in Ukraine and former President Donald Trump's controversial remarks. This episode, released on February 27, 2025, marks three years since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, offering listeners a comprehensive analysis of the war's impact, the resilience of the Ukrainian people, and the political maneuvers in the U.S. that influence international relations.

Personal Accounts from Ukraine

The episode opens with poignant voice memos from ordinary Ukrainians, capturing their harrowing experiences since the onset of the war on February 24, 2022. These firsthand accounts provide a human face to the conflict, illustrating the daily struggles and emotional toll on the Ukrainian populace.

• Marina from Kyiv (01:19): "I remember that day almost second by second. The first day of the war. I remember it so clearly like it was yesterday. I'm lost for words to explain the feeling."

• Daria Kolomyits (13:05): "This is a very special, important, and painful day for all Ukrainians."

These narratives highlight the fear, loss, and enduring spirit of Ukrainians amidst relentless aggression. For instance, Marina recounts waking up to sirens and explosions, fearing for her family's safety:

• Marina (03:19): "I couldn't breathe normally... What will happen to them. We pray all day."

Additionally, the episode features stories of personal sacrifice and resilience:

• Olena Nikulina (14:03): "Olena gave birth to a child. The boy is now two years and four months. Maxim has been in captivity for two years and nine months. Olena hasn't heard from him yet..."

• Irina Chekatzibuk (18:12): "Combat medic, public activist, and my very close friend. Irina was killed by Russia on May 29 in Kharkiv Region while saving lives during her mission in battalion hospital."

Analyzing Trump's Misinformation

A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes former President Donald Trump's statements regarding the Ukraine conflict. Trump has repeatedly shifted blame, attributing the initiation of the war to Ukraine rather than Russia, and labeling Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky as a dictator.

• Trump's Claims (06:15): "Promising to end the biggest war in Europe since World War II, President Trump is now blaming Ukraine for being invaded by Russia. He said Ukrainian President Zelensky should have made unspecified concessions to placate Russia and avoid the war."

• Marina's Reaction (07:45): "The suggestion of President Donald Trump that it was President Zelensky and Ukrainians, but not Russia, who started the war is totally bullshit... It hurts a lot because it's not true... It feels like a betrayal to the whole people."

Trump's unfounded assertions aim to delegitimize Ukraine's sovereignty and shift global perception, thereby weakening international support against Russian aggression.

The "Diary of War" Performance

To counteract misinformation, the episode highlights a culturally significant event—a sold-out performance of "Diary of War" in Manhattan's Upper West Side.

• Alex Wagner (11:43): "On Manhattan's Upper West Side, people filed into a small 80-seat theater for a sold-out performance of 'Diary of War.'"

Directed by Musa Gurness, a Ukrainian American, the performance features American actors reciting original Ukrainian voice memos, translating personal war experiences into a compelling theatrical narrative. This event serves as a testament to Ukrainian resilience and a medium to preserve and disseminate their truths.

Quotes from the performance include:

• Combat Medic (13:37): "I work as a combat medic for the Marines with the Hospitaliers, a volunteer organization of paramedics."

• Olena Nikulina (14:03): "Olena hasn't heard from [Maxim] yet until..."

These stories underscore the profound personal losses and the enduring hope within the Ukrainian community.

Interview with Chris Hayes: The Weaponization of Disinformation

A pivotal segment of the episode features an in-depth conversation between Alex Wagner and Chris Hayes, focusing on the role of disinformation in exacerbating the Ukraine conflict and its broader implications for global democracies.

• Alex Wagner (20:18): "Our next guest... is Ben Rhodes, co-host of 'Pod Save the World' and a former senior advisor to President Barack Obama."

Key Discussion Points:

1. Disinformation as a Strategic Tool:

   • Chris Hayes (21:25): "Ultimately, the purpose of disinformation is to get somebody to do what you want them to do... Trump is repeating Russian talking points... The fact that Donald Trump is repeating Russian talking points and half the country... We are pretty far on our way, not necessarily to being Russia, but we're certainly in hungry territory already."

2. Impact on U.S. Foreign Policy:

   • Chris Hayes (23:11): "Russia wants an election to destabilize Ukraine. It's not just a narrative problem. It's actually bleeding into substantive negotiating positions of the United States."

3. Erosion of Trust in Information:

   • Alex Wagner (23:11): "This is a very Orwellian tactic of destabilizing the information ecosystem so that people no longer know what's right, what's wrong."

4. Potential Global Consequences:

   • Chris Hayes (26:26): "Putin wins on his terms in Ukraine and tries to destabilize Ukrainian politics... What’s the message to China about it's okay to go take Taiwan?"

5. Authoritarianism and Polarization:

   • Chris Hayes (25:56): "We're not at the beginning of the spectrum of a transition to authoritarianism. We're pretty deep into it."

6. Examples of Disinformation:

   • Ben Rhodes (24:23): "Understanding things is empowering. So, you know, if people think it's hard to hear certain things, just remind yourself that they want you to not hear them."

The discussion emphasizes how Trump's alignment with Russian disinformation not only undermines Ukraine but also sows seeds of authoritarianism within the United States by eroding public trust and fostering polarization.

Conclusion

The episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner meticulously unpacks the complex interplay between misinformation, international conflict, and domestic politics. Through heartfelt Ukrainian testimonies and expert analyses, it highlights the dire consequences of disinformation campaigns spearheaded by influential political figures like Donald Trump. The narrative underscores the importance of truth, resilience, and informed discourse in the face of authoritarian tendencies and global instability.

As Ukraine continues to navigate the challenges posed by relentless aggression and misinformation, the episode serves as a crucial reminder of the enduring human spirit and the imperative to uphold democratic values worldwide.

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Notable Quotes:

• Marina, Kyiv: "I remember that day almost second by second... I fell asleep next to my mom because we had been watching a movie together." [01:48]

• Rachel Maddow on Trump's Claims: "You should have never started it." [06:32]

• Chris Hayes on Disinformation: "We're pretty far on our way, not necessarily to being Russia, but we're certainly in hungry territory already." [25:56]

• Ben Rhodes: "Understanding things is empowering... they want you to not hear them." [29:19]

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Production Credits:

Produced by Max Jacobs, Julia D'Angelo, and Kay Guerrero, with associate producer Jamaris Perez. Audio engineers include Bob Mallory, Katie Lau, Mark Yoshizumi, and Bryson Barnes as head of audio production. Executive producers are Matthew Alexander and Aisha Turner. The episode was expertly crafted to deliver a compelling and informative narrative on one of the most pressing geopolitical issues of our time.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Marina]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Chris Hayes]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of.

[Alex Wagner]

Transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Alex Wagner]

Hey everyone, this is just a note to you wonderful listeners. I have been sick, like really sick. But the podcast must go on. So I apologize in advance for the vocal fry.

[Marina]

Hi, my name is Marina. I live in Kyiv. Hello, my name is Alexander Prokhorenko. I'm from Kyiv, Ukraine. Hello, my name is Katerina. My name is Denis. Hi there, my name is Anton. Hi, my name is Ksenik. I'm from KYIV and I'm 20 years old.

[Alex Wagner]

What you're hearing are voice memos recorded this past week by ordinary Ukrainians, teachers, engineers, students, soldiers, people who are in the country at the beginning of the.

[Marina]

War, living in Ukraine on the 24th of February, 2022. Well, I do remember that day and I will never forget it. I remember like super precisely what happened early morning of 24th of February 2022. At the time of the full scale invasion. I was studying in the 10th grade. I remember it so clearly on February 24th when the war started. I was only 16. I remember that day almost second by second. The first day of the war. I remember it very clear like it was yesterday. I'm lost for words to explain the feeling. And it's not the language issue. I would also find super difficult to explain it in my native language.

[Alex Wagner]

This past Monday marked three years since Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. It's a day that Ukrainians cannot forget for weeks. In early 2022, the Biden administration sounded the alarm about Russia's plans to invade.

[Chris Hayes]

Right now, Russia has more than 150,000 troops encircling UKRA in Belarus. An invasion remains distinctly possible.

[Alex Wagner]

In 2014, Russian President Vladimir Putin had illegally annexed Crimea A peninsula on the Black Sea that had been recognized as part of Ukraine since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. But this time, it seemed Putin was eyeing the entire country.

[Chris Hayes]

Russia has positioned about 100,000 troops that could invade Ukraine from the north, east and south.

[Alex Wagner]

Tonight, in what's left of the battered port city of Mariupol, fear that at any hour, this strategic city could finally fall completely under Russian control. Ukrainians who lived in that moment remember fear.

[Marina]

It was painful, scary. So I Woke up almost 5:00 in the morning because of the siren, this sound of violence, sound of dangerous, sound of explosions as well. I called my mother straight away, and my first words were like, mom, it started. And she was like, what? And I was like, the war. It started that night. I fell asleep next to my mom because we had been watching a movie together. And in the morning, I woke up to her suddenly jumping out of bed and running to the window, you know? And I remember the sound of explosions and missiles filled there. And it was like. It was almost a ridiculous moment because the first thought that ran through my head was like, this can't be real. I remember that I couldn't breathe normally. You were not thinking about yourself. You were thinking about your kids, what will happen to them. I remember that we call all our family my parents, my sister and her husband, some friends, and all we can do is pray all day. We pray, pray and pray.

[Alex Wagner]

But of course, this wasn't just one horrible day for the people of Ukraine. It would go on and on and on.

[Marina]

Part of my family was trapped in occupied territory for almost two months. I had absolutely no contact with them. I had no idea if they were safe, if they had food, if they were freezing because it was winter. And I didn't even know if they were alive. It's hard to lose your friends, lose your loved ones. It's hard to see your cities destroyed, your cultural heritage leveled. This has been the everyday life of every Ukrainian.

[Alex Wagner]

For these three years, against all odds, Ukraine has endured three long and painful years of relentless Russian aggression. And they've done it in no small part, thanks to the resilience of the Ukrainian military, the support of European allies and the military and financial backing of the United States. Under the Biden administration, the White House secured funds for Ukraine and united NATO to stand firm against Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin. But fast forward three years, and the situation is unrecognizable.

[Rachel Maddow]

Promising to end the biggest war in Europe Since World War II, President Trump is now blaming Ukraine for being invaded by Russia. Three years ago, saying Ukrainian President Zelensky.

[Chris Hayes]

Should have made unspecified concessions to placate Russia and avoid the war.

[Rachel Maddow]

You should have never started it.

[Chris Hayes]

You could have made a deal.

[Marina]

I could have made a deal for Ukraine.

[Chris Hayes]

That would have given him almost all of the land.

[Marina]

Everything.

[Rachel Maddow]

Almost all of the land.

[Chris Hayes]

And no people would have been killed.

[Alex Wagner]

Last Tuesday, President Trump alleged it was Ukraine and not Russia that had started this war. He also called the duly elected president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, a dictator, not Putin. Zelensky. Trump was asked about that on Monday, whether he would use the same adjective to describe Putin.

[Marina]

Zelensky, a dictator.

[Chris Hayes]

Would you use the same words without including?

[Rachel Maddow]

I don't use those words lightly.

[Marina]

I think that we're going to see.

[Rachel Maddow]

How it all works out.

[Marina]

Let's see what happens.

[Alex Wagner]

Trump's reasoning was that Ukraine hasn't had an election since the war started. That is true. President Zelensky declared martial law when Russia invaded. But Zelensky's decision was dictated by Ukraine's constitution, which doesn't allow for elections in wartime, a rule reaffirmed just this week by the country's parliament. Whatever Trump was saying or trying to do, Ukrainians have refused to abandon the truth.

[Marina]

The suggestion of President Donald Trump that it was President Zelensky and Ukrainians, but not Russia, who started the war is totally bullshit. Trump's statement. My God, for the first time in my life, I truly understood the phrase no words on emotions. It was surreal. It was beyond comprehension. Donald Trump's words about our president, well, this is. I don't know. It hurts a lot because it's not true, you know, is like the betrayal to whole people. You don't have to be Ukrainian to support Ukraine. You just have to be human. Putin and his closest are very happy about what President Trump says, because you don't have to spend billions of dollars on propaganda and spreading fake news all over the world. If you can just call the US President and minutes after he would repeat all your lies.

[Alex Wagner]

President Trump later backpedaled on the claim that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that started the war. But it would seem that Trump's efforts in the past week to spread misinformation about Ukraine, insisting that its president is a dictator and that Ukraine was the aggressor in all of this, rather than Russia. It would seem that there's a point to all that. By trying to rewrite history and poison the American public against Ukraine, Trump is weakening Ukraine's position, which helps Russia, of course, but maybe also America. Trump's now calling for payback, asking that America be compensated for its military aid by gaining access to Ukraine's mineral resources. And earlier this week, Ukraine reportedly agreed. The question now is what else Ukraine agrees to and what role the American president might play in forcing Ukraine's hand. On this episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, the Ukrainians fighting to keep the truth alive.

[Marina]

I know that war is 100% physical experience. You would not understand it if you would not leave it inside, and the.

[Alex Wagner]

Consequences if America decides to ignore it.

[Chris Hayes]

We're not at the beginning of the spectrum of a transition to authoritarianism. We're pretty deep into it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it. So don't get stuck paying more for less coverage. Switch to USA auto insurance and you could start saving money in no time. Get a quote Today, restrictions apply. MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration Department of Justice.

[Alex Wagner]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.

[Marina]

I think what we are seeing is.

[Rachel Maddow]

Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition. Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Marina]

I do think it's worth being very, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail].

[Alex Wagner]

In the past week there were gatherings around the country to mark the three year anniversary of Russia's war against Ukraine.

[Marina]

Stand with Ukraine. Stand with Ukraine.

[Alex Wagner]

There were rallies in cities with large Ukrainian and Ukrainian American populations like Philadelphia and New York City. Russia Terrorist fleet Russia On Monday, the actual anniversary of the Russian invasion, we went to a different kind of event, one meant to keep the truth of the last three years alive. On Manhattan's Upper west side, people filed into a small 80 seat theater for a sold out performance of Diary of War.

[Marina]

Thank you everyone for coming. Thank you for showing your continued support for Ukrainian independence.

[Alex Wagner]

Musa Gurness, who is Ukrainian American, is the director of this performance.

[Marina]

Some of you, like me, are most proud to be American. When we help others in the world, we're not here to Be entertained by a fiction. We're here to listen to true stories and respond.

[Alex Wagner]

The inspiration for the event came from a podcast featuring voice memos just like the ones you heard in our open voice memos that Ukrainians made as the war began three years ago. Daria Kolomyits is the woman behind the podcast.

[Marina]

This is very special, important and painful day for all Ukrainians.

[Alex Wagner]

She's a well known media personality in Ukraine, but travels back and forth to raise money for the war effort. At events like this one.

[Marina]

Just want to remind you, these are real people. Thank you for being with us. Welcome.

[Alex Wagner]

The original diary was in Ukrainian, but tonight American actors read these accounts in English.

[Marina]

I work as a combat medic for the Marines with the Hospitaliers, a volunteer organization of paramedics.

[Chris Hayes]

My name is Marad Shevchenko. I'm from the city of Kupyansk, Kharkiv region. I'm 35 years old. I want to become a sound engineer.

[Marina]

My name is Olena Nikulina. My husband Maxim serves in the Azov regiment, which is a specially trained part of the Ukrainian military.

[Alex Wagner]

Seven actors sat on the stage in a line. They introduced themselves and then slowly revealed more about their lives as the war ramped up.

[Marina]

I live across the street from the largest hospital for children in the Ukraine. I've been working as a hospital clown for more than three years with children who have cancer, ones under palliative care, and those who are undergoing severe treatment.

[Chris Hayes]

Every time I go to check on.

[Marina]

My home, I visit my neighbor. And every time I bring her water or food, she won't let me leave without something.

[Chris Hayes]

It's very Ukrainian, you know.

[Marina]

She gives me candies. I count the time of war in candies. 15 candies have already passed.

[Alex Wagner]

The room was set up like a cabaret with an informal bar, but nobody was getting up to order drinks. They were focused on the actors.

[Marina]

My husband Maxim called and said that in 15 minutes the last bus with women and children will depart. Run and get on it. Please, I beg you, he said. It will become very difficult in Mariupol.

[Chris Hayes]

I took two bags, one with things and the other one with vinyl records. I mean, my friends were like, are you out of your mind? The records.

[Rachel Maddow]

And I said, I will never have.

[Chris Hayes]

A collection like this again.

[Marina]

There were international journalists who came to cover the war. They were wearing bulletproof vests while people were on buses going to work, thinking that life would stay the way that it had been. It was such a strange paradox.

[Alex Wagner]

There were war stories, but there were also stories about life during war.

[Rachel Maddow]

So I had this dog, a pug named Agamemnon. He was very cheerful, he was very fawny. Where we were hiding from the war, something bit my dog and without gasoline, we could not get to a vet for a long time. And I found myself sitting on the.

[Marina]

Side of the road with Agamemnon and I had him wrapped in my scarf.

[Rachel Maddow]

And I was waiting for my friends and they were off waiting at the gas station for a long, long time.

[Marina]

And then my pug died in my arms.

[Rachel Maddow]

And I remember I was crying and.

[Marina]

I was hugging him. I don't know how long that lasted. And a woman from the military in.

[Rachel Maddow]

A military uniform came up and she asked me if I was okay. And I said, no, no, no, not good.

[Marina]

My dog died.

[Rachel Maddow]

And then she started cr.

[Alex Wagner]

Towards the end, Daria came back out on stage and stood beside each actor reading an update about each person.

[Marina]

Ukrainian photojournalist and documentary filmmaker Yulia Kochetova received an Emmy Award for her project War is Personal.

[Alex Wagner]

One by one, the actors stood up, took their chairs and walked off the stage.

[Marina]

Olana Mikulina gave birth to a child. She named him Kostiantine. This is the name her husband Maxim chose even before her pregnancy. The boy is now two years and four months. Maxim has been in captivity for two years and nine months. Olena hasn't heard from him yet until.

[Alex Wagner]

There was just one woman left in the middle of the stage.

[Marina]

Combat medic, public activist, and my very close friend. Irina Chekatzibuk was killed by Russia May 29 in Kharkiv Region while saving lives during her mission in battalion hospital. Years.

[Alex Wagner]

We'll be right back.

[Rachel Maddow]

Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it. So don't get stuck paying more for less coverage. Switch to USA Auto Insurance and you could start saving money in no time. Get a quote today, restrictions apply. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Chris Hayes]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Author Yoni Applebaum.

[Rachel Maddow]

When Americans were moving all the time, what it meant was that there are always people coming into your community with a different background, a different set of political views, it reduced polarization over the last 50 years, as people have moved less and less. You live in a community for long enough, you start to reflect the views of those around you. We're conformist by nature. Our polarization is being driven in part by our lack of mobility.

[Chris Hayes]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now, and follow.

[Alex Wagner]

Our next guest needs no introduction, but I'm going to give him one anyway. He's an author, a political commentator, and a national security analyst. He was a senior advisor to President Barack Obama, and he is currently the co host of Pod Save the World. He's also my very good friend, Ben Rhodes.

[Chris Hayes]

How long do you usually go, Alex?

[Alex Wagner]

We're thinking like, three hours. Like Rogan style.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, yeah. You started my childhood.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, yeah. The first thing I want to talk to you about, Ben, is the disinformation that Trump has been spewing. I mean, infamously offering that Ukraine had started the war, not Russia, and then today saying that NATO is probably the reason the war in Ukraine started and that the US has given Ukraine three times the amount of money that Europe has, calling Zelensky a dictator. He didn't repeat that today, but he has said that earlier. I feel like the disinformation here is serving a purpose. Right. And it's not just, well, there's an immediate purpose and probably a broader purpose. But as someone who has looked at autocracies and the rise of fascism around the globe, I wonder what role you think disinformation plays in furthering illiberal ends.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, ultimately, the purpose of disinformation is to get somebody to do what you want them to do. So in this case, the purpose of disinformation is to get the United States to both validate the Russian view in the eyes of the world, but also to favor Russia on the battlefield. And I'd actually break it into kind of three categories, Alex. First, there's, you know, these broad themes about the cause of the war. The Russian argument being that NATO and Ukraine essentially caused the war by, you know, existing, I guess. But then what's even more worrisome is that there's actually some very specific things Trump has said. Like he said a couple of times that zelensky had a 4% approval rating, which may seem like a smaller thing than NATO causing the war. But what's so alarming to me about that is that's a very specific claim that Russia has made. That's on Russian channels. Right. That doesn't actually exist in any public opinion poll. So it's like, where did he get that piece of information from? Right, because the NATO thing is something you could absorb, you know, in the discourse. The idea that Zelensky has a 4% approval rating is an incredibly specific piece of Russian disinformation with no basis in fact. And then the last piece of this is the US Demand issued by Trump that Ukraine hold an election. That's a Russian talking point that's been on Russian media for a while now that Putin has repeated. And nobody thinks that Ukraine can have an election. They can't. They've got millions of people out of the country. They got millions of people at war. They've got millions of people in territories that are occupied by Russia. How could they possibly hold an election? They're being bombed by Russia. Russia wants an election to destabilize Ukraine. And so it's not just a narrative problem. It's actually bleeding into substantive negotiating positions of the United States. And that just tells you how powerful the disability information has been.

[Alex Wagner]

I spent some time in Russia a couple years ago, and there was something that was happening there, kind of a nascent movement to undermine the credibility of all information. It actually reminded me of what happened in Burma, which is where my mom is from. It's a very Orwellian tactic of destabilizing the information ecosystem so that people no longer know what's right, what's wrong. It's a great way to quell resistance. Right. It's a great way to effectively, like, end any kind of robust civil society conversation when people don't even know kind of which way is north, which way is up, which way is down. And this was beginning to happen in Russia, where there was so much confusion and swirl. And I remember talking to Russians and they said, be careful because that's where you guys are headed. This idea that you can so muddy the waters that it effectively erodes any real resistance. And it sort of feels like not only is Trump aligning himself with Putin and the sort of goals that Russia has for Ukraine, but in that Russian style, authoritarianism and autocracy where. Where citizens are so disemp because they no longer have a handle on the truth like that. That seems to be the, like, the most nefarious element in all of this, that Trump is trying to do what Putin did to Russia.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. I mean, and as you know, this was like, the topic of my entire last book, the authoritarian playbook that is being run here, that has been run in Russia and Hungary, and plenty of other places, and they're running it to a T. I mean, to your point about Russian information, the Kremlin dominates traditional media, right? Television, et cetera, but they also dominate the online space either through their own, you know, trolls and bots, but also just through their own, you know, fellow travelers to the point that there's no truth, that, you know, Russians have no basis for evaluating what is true and what is false. Right. And just think of the conversation we're having here, Alex. We just had a very fact based point. You know, Donald Trump is echoing Russian talking points on things as specific as Zelensky's fictional approval rating. There are a huge swath of Americans who would hear this conversation and roll their eyes and say, oh, there they go again with the Russia hoax. It's Mueller time all over again. Those crazy libs. No, this is just reality that we're talking about. I'm not even saying Donald Trump is a Russian asset. I'm just saying the fact that Donald Trump is repeating Russian talking points and half the country, at least if not more, would just think these guys, these libs, they keep going back to this Russia point. That's because they've been conditioned by the information space in this country to think that because Donald Trump has repeated for eight years now, Russia hoax, Russia hoax, blah, blah, blah. And I think Americans are not aware of how much we're not at the beginning of the spectrum of a transition to authoritarianism. We're pretty deep into it.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And that I think is what's hard for people to get their heads around. The clock didn't begin after Trump's election. The clock has been running for a while now and we are pretty far on our way, not necessarily to being Russia, but we're certainly in hungry territory already.

[Alex Wagner]

I think about the sort of position Ukraine is in, I guess the position America has taken and where Russia is in all of this. Do you foresee how this all ends? Do you have a sense of what the coda is?

[Chris Hayes]

It's hard to predict in Trump world, but I think that the most likely scenario is over the course of the next few months, Russia keeps taking more Ukrainian territory. Then there's some agreement kind of rammed down the Ukrainians throats because they know that they can't survive on the battlefield with no US Military assistance in which Russia consumes, annexes the parts of Ukraine that they are currently occupying. Ukraine does not get NATO membership. Maybe there's a nominal European force that goes to Ukraine on some training mission and Putin is emboldened and you Know, he waits a couple years and then test the waters, either trying to take more of Ukraine or trying to back, quote, unquote, Russian separatists in the Baltics, which are NATO allies, to test If NATO Article 5 collective defense still applies or tries to swallow up, like Georgia, another post Soviet state that Russia sought to. Basically, Putin wins on his terms in Ukraine and tries to destabilize Ukrainian politics and pushes the envelope further in other places. And meanwhile, the US has left the world order of democratic allies. Europe has to develop its own defense capabilities, and the US Is in this transactional law of the jungle with the Russians and the Chinese and the Gulf countries and Israel. And then what I worry about is what's the message to Israel about annexing the west bank or parts of southern Syria where they have troops right now? What's the message to China about it's okay to go take Taiwan? That's the knock on effects that obviously Trump doesn't seem to care about.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And I guess we're seeing the sort of strategy for getting the American public to go along with him on this, which is to just tell them down is up and up is down, that Zelensky's a dictator, that our friends aren't the aggressors or the people that Trump has aligned himself with aren't the aggressors, and to basically cast a shadow over the truth and the facts and hope that people don't see past that.

[Chris Hayes]

Can I say one thing about that, Alex? This small thing, but on Taiwan, which not a lot of Americans spend a lot of time thinking about, but you already see Trump saying things like, taiwan stole our semiconductors. You know, that's something he says regularly. What he's referring to is Taiwan makes 80% of the world's advanced semiconductors, which are vital to the global economy. Well, they didn't steal them. They just developed a really effective semiconductor industry. But that's a Chinese, you know, like, you could see how the Chinese would be like, you know, if there's a military invasion of Taiwan or blockade of Taiwan. Trump using that talking point. So already he's seeding, whether consciously or not, useful disinformation for not just Russia, but for China as well, certainly for Israel. And the way he talks about Gaza, as if the people that live there have occupied some real estate development that is his. So he's creating narratives that just think about how they could be acted on in the world.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you, my friend, for offering some dark, dark wisdom.

[Chris Hayes]

Sorry. Yeah. Understanding things is empowering. So, you know, if people think it's hard to hear certain things, just remind yourself that they want you to not hear them.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly. I completely agree. Thanks, Ben.

[Chris Hayes]

Thanks, Alex.

[Alex Wagner]

We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trump Land with Alex Wagner, and hopefully my voice will be a lot better by then. To get this show and other MSNBC podcasts ad free, be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. Trombland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Jamaris Perez. Our crew included Bill Hennessy on audio and Greg Purpura and Andrew Dunn on camera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory, Katie Lau and Mark Yoshizumi, and Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Matthew Alexander is our executive producer and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Marina]

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