Your Move, Dems

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner: Episode Summary – "Your Move, Dems"

Release Date: April 24, 2025 | Host: Alex Wagner, MSNBC

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Overview

In the episode titled "Your Move, Dems," Alex Wagner delves deep into the tumultuous state of the Democratic Party during the first 100 days of Donald Trump's second administration. The discussion unpacks the historic decline in Democratic approval ratings, the internal push for generational change, and strategic responses to counteract Trump’s policies. Through interviews with key political figures like Cory Booker and insights from commentators such as Steve Kornacki and Chris Hayes, the episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the challenges and potential pathways forward for Democrats in a highly polarized political landscape.

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Historic Decline in Democratic Approval

[01:05] The episode opens with Chris Hayes highlighting a concerning trend revealed by a March NBC News poll: the Democratic Party's approval rating has plummeted to a historic low of 27% positive and 55% negative—the lowest since the late 1980s and early 1990s.

[01:23] Cory Booker: "It’s been nearly 100 days since Donald Trump was sworn back into office. Despite the chaos and controversy, the Democratic Party is historically unpopular."

[02:02] Steve Kornacki: "The Democratic score was really something. That is astonishing, Steve. That's a historic low, right?"

Booker and Kornacki discuss how much of this negativity stems from Democrats themselves, with internal criticism mounting over the party's perceived cooperation with Trump’s agenda.

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Democratic Resistance and Cory Booker’s Milestone Speech

[03:09] Cory Booker emerges as a pivotal figure in reinvigorating the Democratic opposition. Reflecting on Chuck Schumer's recent decision to allow a Republican spending bill to pass, Booker advocates for stronger, more aggressive resistance.

[03:55] Cory Booker: "I rise with the intention of disrupting the normal business of the United States Senate for as long as I am physically able."

Booker recounts his historic 25-hour Senate floor hold on March 31st, protesting the GOP's budget bill and the broader MAGA agenda. This feat not only broke Strom Thurmond's 1955 record but also served to energize the party during a period of significant unpopularity.

[04:19] Cory Booker: "Booker not only made the longest consecutive speech in Senate history but also injected some energy back into the party."

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Push for Generational Change within the Democratic Party

The episode examines a growing movement within the Democratic Party pushing against long-standing incumbents in favor of younger, more dynamic leaders.

[05:27] Cory Booker: "David Hogg... is now a 25-year-old Democratic activist spending $20 million to challenge older incumbents."

[06:16] Steve Kornacki: "He's being paid to run against other Democrats. I think it's an outrage."

This internal challenge underscores a fierce debate about the party's future direction, with figures like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez leading rallies to galvanize voters in traditionally red states.

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Interviews with Aspiring Democratic Leaders

The episode features interviews with emerging Democratic candidates advocating for substantial reforms:

• Shoikat Chakrabarti: "Nothing will change if we keep sending the same people back to D.C. decade after decade."

• Kat Abu Ghazale: "Donald Trump and Elon Musk are dismantling our country piece by piece. It's time to drop the excuses and grow a spine."

• George Ferneto: "After nearly two decades in office, too many folks are still struggling. Why double down on the same people who got us into this mess?"

These candid conversations reveal a collective demand for transformative leadership aimed at revitalizing the party and effectively opposing Trump's administration.

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Strategic Reforms and Leadership Change

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the necessity for structural changes within the Democratic Party to combat corruption and restore public trust.

[15:00] Chris Hayes: "Congress was never meant to be a career. The founders never intended for members to hold office indefinitely."

Candidates argue for measures such as eliminating corporate PAC money, instituting term limits, and enforcing transparency to reduce the influence of wealthy donors and special interests.

[16:42] Chris Hayes: "The idea that nothing gets done without seniority is outdated. The upcoming generation is not on board with that."

This push for reform is seen as essential for the party's survival and effectiveness in the face of entrenched political challenges.

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Cory Booker and Steve Kornacki on Democratic Strategy

In an in-depth dialogue, Cory Booker and Steve Kornacki explore the disconnect between the Democratic Party's strategies and voter expectations.

[28:46] Steve Kornacki: "Organized political parties don't have a lot of friends these days. Democrats look unpopular because many Democrats are blown away by how fast Trump is moving to destroy norms."

Kornacki emphasizes the urgency of adopting new tactics beyond traditional political maneuvers. He advocates for bold actions that align with the current political climate, highlighting the necessity for the party to be more nimble and responsive.

[33:43] Cory Booker: "Senator Van Hollen to Senator Booker to Senator Murphy... recognizing that we now have more means of communication than ever before."

They discuss leveraging modern communication tools and mass mobilization to counteract the administration’s strategies effectively.

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Hope for Mobilization and Institutional Reform

Despite the grim assessment, there remains optimism about the potential for Democratic revitalization through collective action and strategic reforms.

[43:56] Steve Kornacki: "We are dealing with a master showman, someone who knows how to command complete attention. We need to engage in exceptional actions."

Kornacki expresses confidence that with unified, risk-tolerant strategies, the Democratic Party can inspire public action and enact meaningful change. He stresses the importance of avoiding complacency and the dangers of democracies dying gradually through erosion rather than overt collapse.

[45:32] Cory Booker: "Next week will mark 100 days of the second Trump administration... We'll see a special episode."

The episode concludes by emphasizing the critical crossroads at which the Democratic Party stands, with figures like Cory Booker and Steve Kornacki championing a future defined by proactive resistance and comprehensive reform.

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Conclusion

"Your Move, Dems" offers a sobering yet hopeful examination of the Democratic Party's current struggles and the imperative for transformative change. Through compelling discussions and expert insights, Alex Wagner presents a nuanced portrayal of the challenges Democrats face under Trump's second term, alongside actionable strategies and a call for generational revitalization. The episode serves as both a critique and a rallying cry, urging Democrats to adapt, innovate, and mobilize in defense of democracy.

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Notable Quotes:

• Cory Booker [03:55]: "I rise with the intention of disrupting the normal business of the United States Senate for as long as I am physically able."

• Steve Kornacki [33:43]: "We are dealing with a master showman, someone who knows how to command complete attention. We need to engage in exceptional actions."

• Chris Hayes [15:35]: "Congress was never meant to be a career. The founders never intended for members to hold office indefinitely."

• Chris Hayes [16:42]: "The idea that nothing gets done without seniority is outdated. The upcoming generation is not on board with that."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights presented in the "Your Move, Dems" episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, providing listeners—both new and familiar—with a comprehensive understanding of the Democratic Party's current landscape and the strategies being proposed to navigate its challenges.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Sir David Frost, he gave us a front row seat to history.

[Steve Kornacki]

What I'm interested in is conversation, not an interrogation. He was the person to be interviewed by.

[Rachel Maddow]

Now we discover his most iconic interviews.

[Alex Wagner]

Welcome please.

[Chris Hayes]

The Beatles, Muhammad Ali, Jane Fonda, one.

[Rachel Maddow]

Of the greatest interviewers of all time. MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost Versus beginning Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Chris Hayes]

They're also facing a very unique challenge in our poll right here, the view voters have of each party. Neither is good, but look at the numbers here for Democrats. 27% positive, more than double, 55% negative. This is what's happened to the Democrats since the election.

[Cory Booker]

That was Steve Kornacki last month explaining a March NBC News poll that showed Democrats approval rating at the lowest it had been since 1988, 1990. Now, things weren't great for Republicans either, but the Democrat score was really something. That is astonishing, Steve. That's an historic low, right?

[Steve Kornacki]

That is.

[Chris Hayes]

In more than 30 years of this poll, we've never seen either party hit a number this low in terms of negatives here. One thing to note on this for the Democrats, too. A lot of that negative rating, it's coming from Democrats themselves.

[Steve Kornacki]

And a lot of that is coming.

[Chris Hayes]

From Democrats who say the party is being too cooperative, in their view, with Donald Trump.

[Cory Booker]

It's been nearly 100 days since Donald Trump was sworn back into office. And despite the utter chaos, the lawlessness and controversy that has characterized these first days of a new administration, the Democratic Party, the opposition, is historically unpopular. If you want to understand why that may be the case, remember this moment also in March when President Trump spoke before a joint session of Congress.

[Steve Kornacki]

And these people sitting right here will not clap, will not stand, and certainly will not cheer for these astronomical achievements.

[Cory Booker]

The resistance the Democrats mustered that night took the form of black paddles featuring phrases including save Medicaid and Musk steals. Democrats held up the paddles at various moments during Trump's speech. It did not go over well.

[Steve Kornacki]

The bingo signs were killing me. I don't know who thought up the bingo signs, but they should be fired. Michael this is an indictment in my opin opinion on the Democratic leadership, the vegetables are not taking back the house in 2026.

[Cory Booker]

And then last month, the Democrats main voice in the Senate, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, broke with most of his party and allowed a Republican spending bill to pass.

[Rachel Maddow]

For sure, the Republican bill is a.

[Chris Hayes]

Terrible option, but I believe allowing Donald.

[Steve Kornacki]

Trump to take even much more power via a government shutdown is a far worse option.

[Cory Booker]

Is it time for new leadership in the senate?

[Steve Kornacki]

Next question.

[Cory Booker]

Mr. Sen. All of this, a handful of Democrats are pursuing a new, more aggressive form of resistance.

[Steve Kornacki]

I rise with the intention of getting in some good trouble. I rise with the intention of disrupting the normal business of the United States Senate for as long as I am physically able.

[Cory Booker]

The week of March 31, New Jersey Senator Cory Booker held the Senate floor for over 25 hours to protest a Republican budget bill as well as the broader MAGA agenda.

[Steve Kornacki]

For almost 20 hours we have laid out what they're trying to do. 20 hours. I want to stand more and I will. But I'm begging people, don't let this.

[Rachel Maddow]

Be another normal day in America.

[Cory Booker]

Booker not only made the longest consecutive speech in Senate history, breaking segregationist Strom Thurmond's 1955 record, he also injected some energy back into the party.

[Chris Hayes]

Do you know you have just broken the record?

[Steve Kornacki]

Do you know how proud this caucus is of you? Do you know how proud America is of you?

[Cory Booker]

Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, meanwhile, have gone on tour hosting massive political rallies in typically red states to galvanize voters and paint a different, more progressive vision for the future. We are here together because an extreme concent concentration of power, greed and corruption is taking over our country like never before. Oligarchy. Maybe unsurprisingly, what has emerged from all of this as Democrats find themselves shut out of power at the national level is a fierce debate about the future of the party and who should lead it.

[Steve Kornacki]

And what we're trying to do here.

[Chris Hayes]

Is not just focus on primaries where there's potentially an older incumbent, but more than anything an ineffective person in that position and replace them with a generational leader to build the future of our party.

[Cory Booker]

David Hogg, the voice you just heard there was one of the Survivors of the 2018 Parkland school shooting in Florida. After standing up to the national gun lobby, Hogg is now a 25 year old Democratic activist. He was recently elected to become Vice chair of the Democratic National Committee. But less than three months after being elected to that position, Hogg has decided to take aim at fellow Democrats by spending $20 million to challenge some older incumbents as they seek reelection. And not everyone is happy about that, including and especially James Carville. Here he is talking to News Nation's Chris Cuomo.

[Steve Kornacki]

He's being paid to run against other Democrats. I think it's an outrage. I don't know if I have standing, but I might give the DMC $10 and sue him. He's a contemptible little pork. If you ask Jim, I'll have you on to talk about it. I don't know if I understand it, but somebody can stand it.

[Cory Booker]

But Hogg isn't alone in thinking generational change is necessary. A Gallup poll released last week found that only 25% of Americans have confidence in Democratic leadership in Congress. That is 14 points lower than the 39% who are confident in Republicans. And that tracks with this reality. In the past few months, several candidates in their 20s and 30s have launched challenges to veteran Democrats.

[Chris Hayes]

My name's Shoikat Chakrabarti. I'm running for Congress against Nancy Pelosi. I used to be AOC's chief of staff, where I learned a lot about how Congress works and also how it often doesn't.

[Alex Wagner]

Donald Trump and Elon Musk are dismantling our country piece by piece, and so many Democrats seem content to just sit back and let them. So I say it's time to drop the excuses and grow a spine. I'm Kat Abu Ghazale, and I'm running for Congress in Illinois's 9th district.

[Chris Hayes]

I'm George Ferneto, and I'm running for Congress because Indy deserves better. I respect Congressman Carson, but after nearly two decades in office, too many folks are still struggling. Why would we double down on the same people who got us into this mess?

[Cory Booker]

On this episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner, we look at the state of the Democratic Party. Will the Democrats course correct, and if so, how we speak with some of the candidates trying to force change at the ballot box.

[Chris Hayes]

Congressman Sherman was elected in 1996 when I was eight years old. He is still operating like it's 1996.

[Cory Booker]

And speak to those already in office about what needs to happen to save the party and the country from MAGA dominance.

[Steve Kornacki]

We've watched democracies die all across the world because the opposition party couldn't be nimble enough, used old tools when the old tools were irrelevant.

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad Free Listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Citizens, since we each upgraded to Xfinity in our homes, the WI Fi has been booming. It's fair to say our town has officially become a boom town.

[Alex Wagner]

Mayor, will I be able to drop into multiplayer gaming battles with low lag?

[Rachel Maddow]

The lag won't be an issue, but.

[Steve Kornacki]

Your questionable skills may be.

[Cory Booker]

And what if I have hundreds of devices on the Wi Fi? Purely hypothetical.

[Rachel Maddow]

Seems like a lot, but sure, hundreds of devices all booming together with the Xfinity Gateway. Yes, friends and neighbors, with Xfinity, the.

[Steve Kornacki]

WI Fi is booming.

[Chris Hayes]

Restrictions apply.

[Rachel Maddow]

Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Alex Wagner]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail].

[Steve Kornacki]

It'S morning again in America.

[Chris Hayes]

This isn't mom and Dad's America anymore. This is Donald Trump's MAGA Hellscape, complete with his billionaire crony and a cast of corrupt enablers who are all burning our government to the ground. And too many on our team just don't have the fight we need right now.

[Cory Booker]

That voice was Jake Rakove in his first ad launching his campaign for Congress. Rakove is running to represent California's 32nd district in the House of Representatives, a seat that is currently occupied by 15 term incumbent Democrat Brad Sherman, whom Jake Rakove used to work for as a Deputy Communications secretary back in 2017. I talked to Rakov to discuss why he felt the need to challenge his former boss and what Democrats in general are doing wrong. So you got like a missile of a campaign launch video. And let me just first start like why run against your former boss?

[Chris Hayes]

So I am running for Congress because the Democrats so desperately need new energy and new voices to shake up the status quo. I have been in this industry for a long time. I have worked for Congressman Sherman. Obviously in 2017. Nothing will change if we keep sending the same people back to D.C. decade after decade after decade. Congressman Sherman was elected in 1996 when I was 8 years old. He is still operating like it's 1996, and that is not where we are.

[Cory Booker]

Obviously, the generational divide seems to be a big part of this. But what specifically in terms of his leadership do you take issue with?

[Chris Hayes]

He has been so absent from the District. And I think nowadays a with just like how we are as social media and technology and everything, voters are demanding that leaders be accessible and accountable, and he has neither of those things. I think he may have been a long time ago, but he has not held a town hall in the district in five years. He doesn't live in the district anymore. He and his family live in D.C. full time. And I get wanting to be with your family. I don't fault him for that. But then go be a lobbyist. If you're gonna serve this public, you need to be in this public to serve them. If you listen to his talking points, he's very anti maga when he actually does voice opposition. But I think part of where we are right now in this moment, it requires more than snide comments from a committee hearing bench. It requires more than two tweets a week or whatever. I think if you're gonna push back on Trump, you do need to be more active and take action and initiative. Like Senator Booker's marathon speech or AOC and Bernie doing rallies, or Senator Van Hollen now traveling down to El Salvador, you are in a position to act. We understand we are in the minority, legislatively speaking, so we don't have a lot of leverage there. But there is so much more you can do than just simply sitting in your seat in D.C. this is the moment in time when you were elected to be present and active.

[Cory Booker]

Do you feel like there needs to be a purge?

[Chris Hayes]

I don't know of a purge, but I definitely think there are some who need to wake up and realize that they are losing the voters in their own district if they are not matching where they are emotionally. And someone like Congressman Sherman, who's been there so long and has not had a real challenge of a race, that incumbency protection that the party insists on is just stifling to the bench of talent that we could have leading this party.

[Cory Booker]

You say incumbency protection, but I think some people would say party unity, right? Yeah. But the challenge that you're offering is so sharp. And I think there are other Democrats, not just you, who are saying these guys gotta go.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I think so.

[Cory Booker]

Do you think there's any price that you pay nationally for That, I mean, do you think it. Does it make the party look like it's in disarray? Do you worry about that?

[Chris Hayes]

No. I mean, I think it's understood that like we have had these stalwart people there for so long who have done great things in the past, certainly. But the generational change that we need is to bring the country forward and the party and to get those people back into the party that left it. And I think if there is a price to pay of maybe showing some disarray, quote unquote, is that we need to have that discussion. We need to have that family meeting. Let's have that dinner table conversation that we are all whispering about and not really bringing up to the table.

[Cory Booker]

It sounds a little bit like 2010 in the GOP.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly.

[Cory Booker]

It feels like the Tea Party. I mean, do you think about that parallel?

[Chris Hayes]

I do, yeah. I mean, I've been asked about it and I think from like a political science perspective, to get real nerdy, I don't know what that crucial threshold is when it becomes a movement, quote, unquote, because we don't have a figurative leader of it. And so I think there is this decentralized just conversation that the party is having writ large that at one point does it actually turn into a cohesive thing. But the notion that we need this new energy, we need these new voices is pretty prevalent throughout the whole thing.

[Cory Booker]

One of the things that you propose in your campaign platform is no corporate PAC money monthly, in person, town halls. Those are sort of self explanatory. Right. There's a history there.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Cory Booker]

No more than five terms in the House. And I kind of wonder if you could elaborate on why you think term limits are necessary. Because again, I'm seeing this kind of generational divide where these younger upstart insurgents, opposition candidates, whatever you want to call them, are like, if you've been there more than a certain amount of time, you're not going to be serving the American public. And I kind of get that on its face. Right. But there is something to be said for incumbency and history and institutional knowledge. And we're not in a moment when it feels like anybody particularly values that on the left or the right. Do you worry at all about what you're sacrificing in favor of the new thing?

[Chris Hayes]

I don't. And the reason is, is that I have the mindset that Congress was never meant to be a career. Right. I think the rules of the road are you have to reapply for the job every two years. And your basically district is redrawn every 10 years. So your company, quote, unquote, switches every 10 years. Neither of those things point to the fact that the founders and political thinkers that have established the democracy that's lasted this meant for Congress to be full of people who've only been there for like 40 plus years and only operate with the same mentality. The nation is not where it was 40 years ago. So to think that, oh, we can get it back there, or, oh, you know, we can get the people back there, it's just kind of a pipe dream. And it's not even about age. You know, if you want to be 65 and run for the first time, great. You probably have experience and novel ideas that a 25 year old doesn't. And if that's where the district is and wants, that's the idea of it. But you don't need to be there for 30 plus years to get, quote, unquote, seniority to then finally do something. That's the whole thing is they taught us that, oh, you can't really get anything done until you're there for, like, you pay your dues for 20 years and then you maybe get a chairmanship and then you can maybe get something done. That's not the way it's supposed to work.

[Cory Booker]

Yeah, I mean, I think Trump proves that you cannot have any history in politics and ride on in there and shake shit up.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, exactly. It cuts both ways. I understand that. But like, this idea that nothing gets done without seniority is our generation. And this upcoming generation is, like, not on board with that.

[Cory Booker]

Do you ever get people saying, you have no idea what you're doing, you shouldn't be doing this. What you're doing is bad for the party and it's dangerous.

[Chris Hayes]

I definitely get some pushback. Congressman Sherman has probably gotten more pressed in the last month than he got in the last three years combined. And he has been not shy of throwing barbs. So I get some from him. I was at a Democratic Club meeting the other night and I was talking to a group. It was a young Democratic Club, and a couple of kids who had just graduated college a couple years ago were like, I'm so excited about your campaign. And I heard about it and it's awesome and thank you for doing it. And there was an elected official who, like, was just kind of looking at me in the corner and, like, didn't say anything, but, like, I could tell was not feeling my vibe. And I was like, yeah, that's the kind of divide we're gonna see right there.

[Cory Booker]

And you're fine with it?

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, that's. I mean, I knew when we announced how many of the bows I was taking a direct shot across, you were.

[Cory Booker]

Aware that you weren't only going to make friends in this campaign.

[Chris Hayes]

That video was not intended to make everyone love me.

[Cory Booker]

Just the ones that you need to love you.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly.

[Cory Booker]

Congressman Sherman's office pushed back on several of Rakov's claims and told us that Sherman's primary residence is in Sherman Oaks, California. To Rakov's assertion that Congressman Sherman does not hold town halls, Sherman's office responded. The Congressman has had numerous town halls every year. He also has an in person town hall scheduled for Saturday, April 26th. Over in Michigan, Senator Gary Peters retirement has set off a race to fill his seat. And State Senator Mallory McMorrow was the first Democrat to throw her hat in the ring. McMorrow defeated a Republican incumbent in 2018 to win her state Senate seat. And in 2022, a speech he gave on the Senate floor in response to an attack from a Republican colleague went viral.

[Alex Wagner]

Hate will only win if people like me stand by and let it happen. So I want to be very clear right now. Call me whatever you want. I hope you brought in a few dollars. I hope it made you sleep good last night. I know who I am. I know what faith and service means and what it calls for in this moment. We will not let hate win.

[Cory Booker]

Peter's seat is expected to become one of the most high profile primary races of 2026, and it will also be a bellwether for what type of Democrat might be best suited to win a key swing state. Let's talk about where Democrats are. So you're running for Senate?

[Alex Wagner]

Yes, I am.

[Cory Booker]

And you've been very clear about the need for a leadership change among Democrats in the upper chamber. You don't think Democrats are pushing back hard enough and that the Democratic Party has not woken up to the reality of what they're facing, which is not just Republicans, but what do you call it, the MAGA Party. Did you come to that conclusion after 2024 or had that been brewing? Did you feel like the party was sort of in disarray in advance of Trump's second victory?

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know that I would say that the party is in disarray, but I was trying to figure out as I looked at the results of the 2024 election, there's just a gap, you know, that people may look at somebody like Donald Trump and say, oh, God, I don't like him. And I don't like the way he talks or sounds or what he does, but, you know, there was a story in the Washington Post of a woman in Northern Michigan who believed when he said he would make IVF free and that's why she voted for him, or people who believed that he going to bring their costs down. And rebuilding trust is really important. So I think two things that voters do not know what Democrats stand for and that the trust is broken. And part of that is when the end of the 2024 campaign suddenly became all about Donald Trump as a dictator. Donald Trump is a fascist. This is the end of democracy, which implied that, that if you vote for Donald Trump, democracy will end that day. And then the next day comes and it hasn't ended. I don't think anybody would argue that it's in a particularly healthy place right now, but it has not ended. You get a little bit of the boy who cried wolf syndrome, and when you speak too much in hyperbole, people don't trust you.

[Cory Booker]

I feel like this is the central argument in the party, which is like, how many alarm bells should be ringing on any given day around any number of things that the president and his allies are doing. What do you want them to oppose and what should they be motivated by?

[Alex Wagner]

A lot of it is what you oppose, and how you oppose it, I think is really important. There is so much noise right now, and part of the strategy of the Trump administration is just an onslaught of executive orders and horrific statements and actions to get everybody so angry and overwhelmed that you shut down and you do nothing. So something that I try to be very cautious about is I never want to lie to people. I never want to tell everybody, don't worry, it's going to be okay. But I also don't just want to add to the noise in a way that it's not helping all of us figure out, okay, what do we do about it? It's not enough just to say, here are all the horrible things going on at my town halls and my coffee hours in Michigan. People are coming out by the hundreds, you know, and they are not just demanding to know what I am going to do about it. They want to know what they can do about it. Which feels to me very different than this moment post 2016. Democracy is not going to die with one election. It's going to be death by a thousand cuts. And being able to break that down for people and respond to each one of the cuts instead of, you know, when you sit to people, this is an Existential crisis. People go, okay, what am I supposed to do?

[Cory Booker]

Well, right? And to your point, like I was talking to these professors at Columbia Zumba class is still happening, right? People are like, I can. I can still get like, you know, a beer at my local bar. How is democracy over?

[Alex Wagner]

It's a little bit jarring. You know, when we even watching the insurrection, right? I think about that moment in time, and here in Michigan, we had already lived through what was effectively the trial run insurrection, where we had armed gunmen in our state capitol. And even talking to my staff, like, as we went through that, and then we were watching January 6th. She said it felt strange that we just have to come to work and we're just answering emails, right? It's like the normal things keep happening, even though all of these big crises are happening simultaneously. And when you speak only in hyperbole, it sends the message that everything is just gonna come crashing to an end. And that's not how it happens.

[Cory Booker]

As Democrats kind of reassess what the path forward is, on one hand, there seems to be accepting someone like Bernie Sanders, who I know some people have called out as working outside the sort of Democratic firmament. It seems like it's a generational divide as much as anything in terms of the appetite for innovation and opposition and fight. I know that you said that you do not believe Chuck Schumer should be the Senate Minority leader. You called on President Biden to leave the race last summer. Is there any Democrat that has been in office for multiple terms who's been in the game for decades, who you think is actually innovating and thinking differently and thinking more strategically and effectively?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, we see pockets of it all across the party right now, from Senator Van Hollen to Senator Booker to Senator Murphy. Just thinking about members of the Senate, it's not about age. It is about approach and recognizing that we now have more means of communication than we ever have before. You can connect directly with voters and have real dialogue in real time in ways that we have not been able to before. And what we've seen is that when people do raise their voices, we can change what the Trump administration does. We saw it with the funding freeze for Head Start programs, where they said funding is cut off. People showed up, the doors were locked, they sounded the alarm, and within 48 hours, they pulled that back. So it shows. I had somebody in my office yesterday who said, it seems like the approach from the Trump administration is to try everything and they will only keep the things in place so long as nobody's raising their voice about it, which is a challenge to realize. We're gonna have to sound the alarm on a lot of things, but it's also empowering to know that, yeah, we can actually push back because they're not as bulletproof as they think they are.

[Cory Booker]

After a break, we'll hear from Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy. We'll be right back with more from Trumpland Foreign.

[Rachel Maddow]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Alex Wagner]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

And in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Steve Kornacki]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? History professor and author of America A New History of the New World, Greg Grandin.

[Chris Hayes]

Every wealthy country went through some restructuring.

[Steve Kornacki]

To deal with changes in the global economy, competition, rising oil prices. You know, every rich country in Europe. No other country so gleefully assaulted the institutions that could have ameliorated that restructuring as did the United States. That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

[Cory Booker]

For Democrats currently in office, the work is determining a party strategy right now as Trump and his allies dominate the federal government. Senator Chris Murphy was elected to the house in 2006 when he was only 33 years old. Six years later, he was elected to the Senate, where he became a national voice on gun safety following the Sandy Hook shooting, which occurred in his former House district. As a senator, Murphy has gained a reputation as a foreign policy expert and a deal maker. But right now, Murphy is also one of the most vocal opponents of the Trump agenda, which he sees as a direct threat to American democracy. First of all, can I just say, I've been enjoying your X threads.

[Steve Kornacki]

I still call it Twitter. I'm not giving in.

[Cory Booker]

Yeah, I know it'll always be Twitter to me, but they've been very provocative and have raised a lot of questions that I have for you. So let's, let's start there. I mean, I know that you believe that the country is moving very quickly towards what you call a kleptocratic oligarchy. And I think there are a lot of Democrats who would agree with you and maybe non Democrats. But the reality is that the polling we have shows deep dissatisfaction with the Democratic Party that it's near an all time low in popularity that Democratic voters very clearly and strongly want elected Democrats to do more to oppose Trump's policies. How do you account for both the swiftness with which we're moving towards an oligarchy, the darkness of that, with the deep dissatisfaction with the only party that stands in opposition to that future?

[Steve Kornacki]

I think they're connected together. I don't think that the American public was ready for how ready Trump was for Inauguration Day. Right. They have worked for four years on a plan, a plan to transition American democracy to autocracy, a plan to put a handful of billionaires who think they know better than us in charge of our government, and to essentially authorize the large scale theft of resources from regular people, poor people, the middle class to the wealthy. And they started putting that plan into action right from the beginning, starting with the pardoning of every single violent rioter from January 6th. And they've been at it ever since. That has been a shock to the system. And I think the American public is asking sort of a simple question, why don't Democrats stop it? And so I think it's worth exploring the narrative of Democrats being more unpopular than ever before. First, the polling tells you that the Republican Party is more unpopular than ever before. It's just true that organized political parties don't have a lot of friends these days. But the reason why the Democrats look look like our popularity is in the toilet is because lots of Democrats who are still going to vote for the Democratic Party are just blown away by how fast Trump is moving to try to destroy norms, to wage an assault on democracy. And they're really worried that Democrats can't and don't have the tools to stop it. So there's a lot of folks who are essentially expressing their disapproval of Trump and their anxiousness about Trump and their anger about Trump through their opinion of the Democratic Party. Now, I have critiques of the party. I do not think that we've met the moment, but I also think that the public reaction of the Democratic Party is as much a measurement of how upset they are about what Trump is doing.

[Cory Booker]

Why do you think the party hasn't met the moment?

[Steve Kornacki]

Well, I think it's a lot easier for any political leader to decide that things are still normal instead of having to rethink your entire political strategy. So it's a lot easier if you just decide that, you know, Trump is presenting threats, but not immediately existential threats to our democracy, and thus, you know, we should just keep punching at him every day and we'll get him unpopular enough such that we can win in the midterms. That's an easier thing to believe. Because if you believe what I believe, that we might not have a free and fair election in 2026 if we don't take immediate steps like this year, like this summer, to this slide away from democracy. If you believe that, then you actually have to come up with brand new tactics. I mean, things that we've never done before in American politics. You have to fundamentally change the way that you spend money. You have to fundamentally change the way that you operate inside the institutions like the Senate and the House. And that's a hard pivot for United States Senators and House members who have spent their entire careers doing one thing, existing in only one paradigm. Prep for the next election. Prep for the next election. This is brand new. The next election might not arrive, at least on terms where we can win it. So you have to operate fundamentally differently.

[Cory Booker]

When you say things like that's not how people in the Senate who have spent their entire careers there, it suggests to me that you see a generational divide on this issue. Is that fair?

[Steve Kornacki]

I don't know that that's fair. Because when I look at the people who I think get it interacting with urgency, it's not always the young members. I would say Bernie Sanders understands this moment and he's one of the oldest members of the Senate. I mean, maybe the. It tends to be the younger crow, but there are plenty of young congressmen and young senators who are of the belief that we can kind of act as if things are normal. I think it's just sort of. Do you believe that we're going to have an election, or do you think that there's a good chance we might not have a free and fair election?

[Cory Booker]

Do you think that it is inevitable that the party will come around eventually to the way you're thinking of this, which is as an existential crisis for democracy, or do you think that there is a fair amount of back and forth and that it's unclear kind of how you know what direction the party ends up going in in advance?

[Steve Kornacki]

2026, it is certainly not inevitable. I mean, we've watched democracies die all across the world because the opposition party couldn't be nimble enough, used old tools when the old tools were irrelevant. We'll know soon enough. The government funding expires in the fall of this year. And, you know, I don't know exactly what the terms of the debate will be, but there will probably be a really risky option that raises the stakes for the public will be a safe option. The last time around, when the government funding was set to expire, we chose the safe option. I think that was a mistake. We'll have another chance in just a matter of months. And so we'll have these tests every few months to decide whether we're still operating on the old rules or whether we're actually willing to engage with the urgency at the moment.

[Cory Booker]

Do you think some of the alarm that's being rung, in particular by insurgents who are trying to oust longtime incumbents or just incumbents generally within the party, and you have these kind of younger, upstart candidates who have announced the old way, even if you're not old, the sort of business as usual approach in the House and the Senate ain't gonna work. Do you support that, or do you think that there's a question about how much that kind of public criticism of and by Democrats, for Democrats, hurts the party more broadly, in a national sense?

[Steve Kornacki]

No incumbent has a right to their seat. If you're not doing a good job, you don't deserve to get the nomination. And right now, doing a good job as a member of the United States Senate or the House of Representatives means recognizing that the number one priority is to wake up every single day with urgency, fighting the corruption, the thievery, and the destruction of our democracy. You know, I worry, Alex, that there's a narrative here where we're waiting for something to happen, right? We're waiting for there to be this grand confrontation between the president and the Supreme Court on a major ruling, right, that he ignores. Or we're. We're waiting for a coup, or we're waiting for, you know, the parliament building to be burned down, right? That's not actually how democracies die any longer. Democracies die invisibly. Like, there's not a moment when democracy is here and then it's gone. It's just that the structures of accountability, the structures that support the opposition, just get weakened and atrophied by the regime over time, that one day the opposition just can't win any longer. They just can't win. They don't have the tools to win. And so the election still happens, but the rules are rigged such that the regime, the party in power, never loses. That's, I think, what we're headed for. It's not inevitable. We can stop it, but I do think that there's a lot of folks out there who are sort of think that the only thing that matters is if Trump violates a Sort of major blockbuster ruling from the Supreme Court that doesn't need to happen for democracy to die.

[Cory Booker]

Help me understand, though, because I think there are some people who look at 2024 and they're like, well, all Biden Harris did as much as they said they weren't going to. And it was kind of a back and forth was talk about existential threats to democracy and how Trump represented them. And it didn't work. And here we are, and he's doing exactly what, you know, Democrats predicted he would do, if not considerably worse. So how do you make that a winning strategy, I guess, given where the American public is?

[Steve Kornacki]

Yeah, so I think it lies in sort of two lanes here. The first is to understand that the story is not just the destruction of democracy. The story is the mass scale corruption. Right. The commiseration of Medicaid throwing millions of people off their health care in order to pass along a task cut for the very, very wealthy. Trump essentially monetizing the White House to help himself to the detriment of the rest of us. The only way that you get away with that kind of thievery, that kind of corruption, is to destroy democracy. Because what they're doing, cutting Medicaid to pass a tax cut for the wealthy, is deeply unpopular. You couldn't get reelected as a party if you did that unless you also were destroying democracy. So the two things are tied together. And every single time you're talking about the destruction of democracy, you have to explain why. The reason that they are doing it is because they are the most corrupt administration in the history of the country. They are engaged in the biggest, most massive transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the rich in the history of the country. And the only way they get away with that is by destroying the democracy. Then second, we have to talk about how we would reform democracy. The problem in 2024 was that we were rooting for the existing version of democracy. And the existing version of democracy sucks and people never know it. It has been co opted by the billionaire and corporate class. So the government works only for them. So Democrats have to get back to where we were like 20 years ago when like a top three issue for us was getting private money, special interest money, corporate money out of politics. Now today that may require a constitutional amendment. But let's be for that. Let's loudly be for a constitutional amendment to get private corporate money out of politics. Let's be for the STOCK act, let's be for closing the revolving door between lobbyists and members of Congress. And staff, let's have a really loud and sensitive central argument about how we are going to fundamentally change the rules of government if we win. People will listen to our message on corruption, but only if they think that we're actually going to change the rules to make corruption less prevalent if we win.

[Cory Booker]

So what I'm hearing is less kind of ideological argument about the importance of free and fair democracy and more concrete examples of the corrupting influence of money as the end game of disassembling democracy.

[Steve Kornacki]

We want to fight to save democracy. And if you give us a chance to run this country, we will fundamentally unrig the democracy. Democracy. We will put you back in charge.

[Cory Booker]

In the last week, there's like this huge story about Kilmar Abrego, Garcia's deportation and Governor Newsom, who's probably going to be running for president in 2028, though don't tell him I said that. Has said that it's a distraction. This is a debate the right wants. If you're Gavin Newsom, he thinks the attention Democrats should be paying is to tariffs, which is more of a political winner, if not, you know, a devastating thing for the American economy. Do you agree with that?

[Steve Kornacki]

The central story is the theory slavery is their plan to cut programs that matter to regular people, like Medicaid, like public school funding, in order to pass along a massive tax break for the very, very wealthy. That's the central story. You have to wake up every day talking about that. But the reason that the Abrego Garcia case is important is at the very least, it kind of rattles democratic institutions to understand that they actually are engaged in a rapid campaign to destroy the rule of law. And so While I'm not 100% sure that swing voters are paying a lot of attention to the Kilimar Abrego case, it is evidence for people in our party who thus far have been sort of hoping that we can engage in politics as normal, that this isn't politics as normal.

[Cory Booker]

It seems like it's not just about how the party handles it, but it's also the medium. It's the way in which they're tackling these issues. Senator Booker, you know, holds the record. Was it 25 hours? Thunderstorms?

[Steve Kornacki]

25 hours, right.

[Cory Booker]

There was like a Cory Booker cam on the lower third of cable news stations. And, you know, I was there with.

[Steve Kornacki]

Him for all 25 hours.

[Cory Booker]

So, you know, you were wingman to that. You talk about Chris Van Hollen, and this isn't to undermine the legitimacy of the voyage, but the Van Hollen stuff was very much a photo op too, when he finally got to meet Albergo Garcia. Brian Schatz has placed holds on Trump dummies in the Senate. I mean, do we need to see more spectacular tactics from Democrats? Because it just feels like information has become so atomized or siloed and having the American people understand the stakes, it's not enough to just talk about it. You really do need to have. It seems like if you're citing these couple of examples, you're saying that it needs to be attention grabbing. It needs to be something that isn't usually done.

[Steve Kornacki]

Yeah, listen, you have to exist on the platform we're all standing on. And we are dealing with a master showman, somebody that has lived his whole life knowing better than anybody else how to command complete, total attention of the the country for days, weeks at a time, blotting out everybody else. That's what I'm talking about. If we engage in sort of normal political theater, holding, you know, our daily or weekly press conferences, we will never get any attention. So you've got to do things that are exceptional. That's why, you know, for instance, you know, I recommended that we boycott the State of the Union, a mass that we all decide not to go. What ended up happening, six different forms of protest, you know, looked feckless. It wasn't really a story, but had demonstrate Democrats three days beforehand decided none of us were going to attend. That would have dominated the headlines. So yes, I think this is a conversation, you know, not just about message and strategy, but also about day to day tactics.

[Cory Booker]

I want to go back to sort of how you were framing the disappointment the public feels within the Democratic Party just as we close this out. I think it's an interesting sort of psychological profile that you're painting of the American voter or Democrats that they're expressing some of their dissatisfaction and anger and upset with Trump by mapping it on to Democrats. Like, you guys didn't protect us from this. We're angry with you. But could it also be that they're just upset that the Democrats are in disarray, that they're just like, where are they? I mean, just anecdotally, I know so many people who can't even follow the news because they just see Trump as dominant, unstoppable, organized in a way that Democrats can't even hold a candle to and that, that, you know, reality could not sink the party's futures, but really turn people who might otherwise be recruited to help or come from the middle to the left that it is a real, you know, structural issue from the party independent of Donald Trump.

[Steve Kornacki]

No, listen, I'm, I'm not saying the only reason that people are angry with Democrats is because they are just transferring onto us their anger with Trump. They're legitimately upset. And, you know, some of that is, I think, deserved. Some of it is not. Some of it is that people just don't understand how this could be happening. Happening. Don't we have some lever inside our democracy to stop the President of the United States from on a daily basis upending constitutional norms? And the reality is we actually don't have those tools. The levers actually don't sit in the hands of the opposition, especially when we are the complete, total opposition. Right. We don't have a foothold in the House, the Senate or the White House. The tools actually are in the judiciary. The tools are actually in the hands of the public through mass mobilization. And so what we have to understand is that we actually do have very limited means to stop him through our official duties as United States Senators. What we have to be doing is inspiring the levers that exist on the outside. We have to be, you know, helping to fund the legal efforts. We have to be engaging in risk tolerant tactics internally to inspire the public to be engaging in risk tolerant tactics out in America.

[Cory Booker]

Are you optimistic that that inspiration is going to happen?

[Steve Kornacki]

I am, in part, because I think we're learning, right? Because I think between what Corey did and what Chris did, what Harvard did, incredibly important, that may go down in history as one of the most important acts of democratic protection in the history of the country. Because it may inspire all sorts of other industries and institutions to say, oh, wait a second, if we band together and engage in collective action, we can stop this. So I'm absolutely, absolutely confident, optimistic that we will sort of hold on to this tiger tail for the next year and a half, that we will have a free and fair election that will win at least the House, and that that will be the story of democracy's survival. But we are going to have to, as a collective body in the Senate, be willing to take some risk. I know shutting down the government feels awful nasty, but just think, there's going to be moments, whether it be on the debt ceiling, whether it be on a government shutdown, in which we are going to have to intentionally raise the urgenc level of the national conversation. And that will involve much more risk tolerant behavior than we've been willing to engage in in the past.

[Cory Booker]

You got your work cut out for you, Senator.

[Steve Kornacki]

Yeah, but like, you know, what a, like what a project. I mean, I just.

[Cory Booker]

What a moment. This is why you're in it.

[Steve Kornacki]

Yeah. I tell every group that I go talk to, like, feel lucky that you got, you know, dumped onto the earth at this country at this moment. You get to save the greatest experiment in societal organization in the history of the world, multicultural democracy. So feel lucky for it and go to work.

[Cory Booker]

Next week will mark 100 days of the second Trump administration, which means that after next week, our show Trumpland with Alex Wagner will be coming to an end. So be sure to tune in next Thursday for a very, very special episode. Until then, you can continue to get this show and other episodes MSNBC Podcasts ad free when you subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get bonus content, including an exclusive bonus episode of Trumpland after our last official episode next week, so be sure to subscribe Trumpland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Jermaris Perez. Our online audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is head of Audio production, Matthew Alexander is our executive producer and Aisha Turner is the Executive producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

[Rachel Maddow]

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