Aaron Goldenberg - Homeschool, Conversion Therapy, and Finally Coming Out

Summary

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Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Aaron Goldenberg – Homeschool, Conversion Therapy, and Finally Coming Out

Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Aaron Goldenberg
Release Date: October 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this compelling episode, comedian and actor Aaron Goldenberg shares his deeply personal journey through the world of Bill Gothard’s IBLP (Institute in Basic Life Principles) homeschooling curriculum, his experience with conversion therapy, and his eventual embrace of his true identity as a gay man. Hosted by Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth—survivors of cults themselves—the conversation unpacks the interplay between fundamentalist beliefs, family dynamics, and the challenging process of self-acceptance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Aaron’s Upbringing: The IBLP, Homeschool, and Quiverfull Culture

[13:08-14:06]

• IBLP Background: Aaron’s family followed the IBLP, a fundamentalist Christian movement emphasizing strict gender roles, authority, and submission. The expectation was to raise “soldiers for Christ,” with an overt goal of increasing Christian numbers.
  • “A big part of my upbringing was IBLP...one of those families with a lot of kids. I'm one of 11. It was very much, at far too young of an age, drilled into us that families that have more kids are superior in God's eyes...” – Aaron ([13:08])
• Homeschooling: Aaron was homeschooled until 10th grade, insulated from secular influences, and groomed to defend creationism and conservative beliefs.
• Gender Roles & Authority: In the IBLP structure, men (even boys) were to exert authority over women and younger siblings, mirroring the “umbrella of authority.”
  • “Basically, if it was an oldest boy at home, like, you're in charge. You're the authority figure...” – Aaron ([23:41])

Public School Culture Shock & Religious Indoctrination

[15:08-17:24]

• Transition to High School: Going to public school in 10th grade, Aaron was prepared to "defend Christianity," but quickly encountered the disconnect between religious dogma and reality.
  • “All I do remember is...I got shut down. I was like, yeah, cool, talk about whatever you want. I was like, oh God, I didn't have an answer for that. And I felt like such a failure.” – Aaron ([17:10])
• Pressure to Convert Others: He describes feeling responsible for converting others, teachers included.

The Daily Reality: Spiritual Fear, Isolation, and Programming

[20:45-22:05]

• Spiritual Warfare: Aaron and Lola discuss being raised with the constant fear of demons, hell, and spiritual warfare—shared by many in fundamentalist environments.
  • “I'm at school and I'm fighting for the Lord, and it's like, most people are just at recess.” – Megan ([20:45])
• Mix of Influences: Aaron was affected by Messianic Judaism (because of his father), IBLP, and Pentecostalism—each with their own blend of strict, authoritarian controls.

The Male Perspective in IBLP: Power, Guilt, and Control

[23:09-28:43]

• Blind Obedience vs. Authority: While IBLP restricts women’s autonomy, boys are taught to become rulers—tasked with discipline, even physical punishment, of siblings.
• Cult of the Father: The father is elevated to a home cult leader; adult children are to submit to him on all decisions.
  • “I was in my mid-20s and...had not yet moved out because I felt like I couldn't. If I did, I would let the family down.” – Aaron ([25:54])
• Family Evolution: Following his parents’ eventual divorce, his mother abandoned homeschooling and IBLP doctrine, which improved the siblings’ well-being and independence.

Coming Out, Conversion Therapy, and the Struggle for Self-Acceptance

[32:35-52:55]

• Early Awareness and Denial: Aaron felt different from a very young age but was taught being gay was “not real”—just sinful behavior.
• Discovery and Forced Confession: At 15, Aaron’s parents discover evidence of his sexuality and confront him. Immediate shaming, withdrawal from church activities, and referral to “therapy” follow.
  • “I definitely was coming at it from a place of shame...but at least...this feels finally good to get it all out there.” – Aaron ([47:00])
• Conversion Therapy and Exodus International: Weekly therapy, ex-gay conferences, and literature designed to “fix” him through healing trauma or improving relationship with his father.
  • “The leaders [of Exodus] came out and said, we have not seen one successful case. We ourselves are not changed.” – Aaron ([50:57])
• Cognitive Dissonance: Years of trying to change himself leads to profound depression, shame, and feelings of failure.
  • “What ends up happening...is we really want it to go away...the message I internalized...was, oh, there’s something extra wrong with me that I can’t get this to stop.” – Aaron ([54:10])

Deconstruction, Recovery, and Radical Honesty

[55:51-63:50]

• Sobriety & The Steps: Participation in 12-step recovery programs demanded honesty, prompting deeper questioning of his beliefs and sexuality.
  • “One of the things is just radical honesty and making an inventory...I remember I literally wrote a note for my sponsor...‘You’re about to hear a lot of gay shit. But just so you know, I’m not gay.’” – Aaron ([56:10])
• Therapy and Relearning: With help from therapy and a supportive community, Aaron disentangles his identity from shame.
• Allowing Questions: Simply allowing himself to ask, "What if this isn't wrong?" began the unraveling of decades-long indoctrination.
  • “What if God not only doesn’t hate it about me, but actually sees it as something beautiful about me?...just started to crack the facade.” – Aaron ([61:43])

Embracing Authenticity: Life After Indoctrination

[64:28-66:24]

• Freedom from Agenda: Aaron now seeks genuine relationships without ulterior motives.
• Healing from Shame: Therapy helps him shed shame tied to sex and live without counting or keeping "score” on himself.
  • “Good, because that number doesn’t have to mean anything.” – Aaron, paraphrasing his therapist ([66:24])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Quiverfull-family superiority:
  “It was very much, at far too young of an age, drilled into us that families that have more kids are superior in God's eyes...” – Aaron ([13:12])
• On the umbrella of authority:
  “IBLP makes every father into a cult leader and every home into an island.” – Aaron ([25:07])
• On ‘conversion therapy’ results:
  “The leaders came out and said, we have not seen one successful case. We ourselves are not changed.” – Aaron ([50:57])
• On the internal message of conversion therapy:
  “The message that I internalized...was, oh, there’s something extra wrong with me that I can’t get this to stop.” – Aaron ([54:10])
• On cognitive dissonance & Christianity:
  “If God loves everyone...and maybe, what if this isn't a sin for me? What if it just is part of who I am?” – Aaron ([61:43])
• On healing:
  “I don't want to kill myself. Nowadays I can walk around relaxed and I'm not trying to modify my voice to be lower or walk a certain way or...lie about what my testimony is.” – Aaron ([70:00])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:48 – Lola and Megan introduce Aaron and outline episode themes
• 13:08–15:08 – Aaron’s IBLP upbringing, Quiverfull, and homeschooling
• 15:08–17:24 – Transition to public school; religious confrontation in secular spaces
• 23:09–28:43 – How IBLP indoctrinates boys and the family power dynamic
• 32:35–52:55 – Aaron’s sexuality; coming out; forced conversion therapy; impact of Exodus International
• 55:51–63:50 – Recovery, radical honesty, and challenging ingrained beliefs
• 64:28–66:24 – Genuine relationships, therapy, letting go of shame, and embracing sex without guilt
• 67:42–72:04 – Advice for others deconstructing sexuality and faith; the “what if it’s the devil” dilemma

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Advice for Listeners and Deconstructing Beliefs

For Those Deconstructing Sexuality & Faith:
“Just keep asking questions...Find somebody around you to have those conversations with...Nowadays there are so many more resources online—people who have probably been where you're at and have come out of it.” – Aaron ([68:22])

On persistent fear ("what if this is the devil tricking me"):
“I don’t believe the devil’s real, so that’s easier for me now...I now live a life my younger self would think is deceived...But now I don’t want to kill myself. Now I can walk around relaxed...I can just be a human.” – Aaron ([69:29])

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Uplifting Closure

• On living authentically:
  “Now you’re walking around feeling good.” – Lola ([72:10])
  “So gay in tight ass jeans.” – Aaron ([72:13])

• On self-acceptance:
  “You’re gay, and that’s okay. Just that simple message, but like really accepting that fully for what those words mean.” – Aaron ([67:42])

• On moving forward:
  “Taking a moment to celebrate what an incredible arc you’ve had...from Bill Gothard to being on the Hunting Wives, it’s so cool.” – Megan ([77:15])

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Where to Find Aaron Goldenberg

• Instagram: @eringoldyboy
• IMDb: Aaron Goldenberg
• Recent projects: The Hunting Wives (Netflix), We’re So Dead (film, screenings nationally)

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Final Thoughts

Aaron’s story is a raw, sometimes painful, sometimes humorous, always honest look at life inside—and after escaping—religious extremism. It serves as a testament to the lifelong impact of religious indoctrination, the emotional toll of conversion therapy, and the transformative power of honesty, support, and self-love.

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For more information and listener stories:

• Instagram: @trustmepodcast
• TikTok: @trustmecultpodcast
• Email: [e-mail]

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(Summary omits ad reads and non-content banter per instructions.)

Transcript

[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Would I ever lead you astray? Trust me.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

This is the truth. The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two unfortunately straight women who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

Today our guest is Aaron Goldenberg, comedian, performer and survivor of Bill Gothard's IBLP curriculum as well as conversion therapy. Aaron is going to share with us what it was like growing up as a boy with the IBLP homeschool curriculum, how he tried to defend Christianity in public school and and what the religious framework of male dominance was like from a male perspective.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He is an amazing actor and comic. It was so cool to talk to him. He's also going to tell us about how his parents discovered he Was gay and pushed him into conversion therapy. And the so called Ex Gay Conference led by the now disbanded Exodus International. How he pursued celibacy and recovery from his queerness for many years. He. Including almost marrying a woman. And how getting sober forced him to question the teachings of his youth and embrace his sexuality.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I love. I love him. His videos are so funny, so talented.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, he's gonna be a huge star.

[Lola Blanc]

I agree. I mean, he's already halfway there. He's already.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's gonna be on the hunting wives. He's gonna release a book. He's just. He's. It's all happening.

[Lola Blanc]

It's all snowball happening.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Boop boop boop, boopity boop boop boop. Cults.

[Lola Blanc]

Good song. Megan, before we talk to Aaron.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Please tell me your cultiest thing this week.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. Okay. This regards the two by two cult that I was raised in. A person released an article entitled, secretive church under investigation by the FBI holds annual convention and in York, Nebraska. Okay, okay. And it's a article that contains, you know, the 900 accusations of sexual abuse and just some kind of crazy quotes. One of the workers actually pointed to the story of Joseph in the Bible, claiming Joseph was falsely accused by a woman of trying to get her to lay down with him. Wow. Yeah. So it's not. It's not a flattering article. And this is when the church gets really deceitful, in my opinion. The person who wrote this article moved jobs. They moved to a different newspaper. So the two by two workers have said that they told so many lies in this article that they were fired. So. So somebody reached out to the editor and to the journalist and they were both like, oh, no, I just wanted to move to a different city and work at this paper. And it was like, no, he wasn't fired. And it's just so frustrating how this misinformation and these little lies like. And we see it with so many people in power just like, no, it wasn't that.

[Lola Blanc]

It's justification after justification and mass confusion.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And just like, oh, okay, I guess it is a lie. Like, how can that. Like, you know, if you are willing to lie, you can just like lean into coincidences. And I don't know, I mean, there's always.

[Lola Blanc]

There's always an explanation. And it, like, yeah, precisely. It doesn't matter if it's real. Doesn't matter. As long as it gives people something to ease the cognitive dissonance. And it's so frustrating.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly. So, yes, if you were exper which we talk about cognitive dissonance in this episode a lot in a way that I found enlightening. But people will go to extreme lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance, which is one of the most uncomfortable feelings in the human body. And so, yeah, I. I think a lot of people are just like, oh, cool, He. He got fired. This isn't true. This, and just move on. And I hate it. So that's my cultiest thing of the week. What about you? What's yours?

[Lola Blanc]

Well, I kind of have two, because one is fun. And also a plug for my album that's out. It's called Crowd Pleaser. Go listen to it. First album ever. I did an album release party, which you came to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hell, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And everybody did wear white. We had a ton of people wearing white. And we did have some silly baptisms to go with one of the songs that is about belief. And Megan actually got baptized, everybody, by my friend Shane.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I sure did. And I've never. I've never been baptized before. Shane really looked like he was a church leader. I know how he did that. But, yeah, the two by twos are very serious about you never getting baptized until you're, like, old enough to really. I think it's like, 16 is when they let you start doing it, and so you. They don't baptize you as a baby. They don't baptize you after you're dead, like the Mormons. So it actually felt like a kind of taboo thing to do. But there was just this, like, performance that you were doing where they're like, somebody get baptized. And I was like, oh, gosh, this performance needs to go on, and nobody's jumping in the pool, so. And where we went, and it did feel like, oh, my gosh, is this, like, taboo? Am I gonna get in trouble? And then I was like, wow, there's so many layers to my. You know, once you think you've healed, I don't know. But then I'm just gonna say this. I got baptized at this beautiful, fun party I called an Uber. And this actually really nice car came, and it was like the windows were down. The party was up in the hills kind of near where I live. And it was this really cool, weird ride back to my house, and I was just, like, very wet, and the windows were down, and it was like I felt like I'd actually been.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know, like you'd overcome an obstacle from your religious.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it just felt like a. It felt like a beautiful little moment. So anyway, that's All.

[Lola Blanc]

That's so nice. I'm so glad.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. So, yes, the album absolutely slaps. It's like pop superstar meets Ari Aster meets, like, phenomenal. It's just phenomenal. So everybody go listen.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you. And I'm just gonna quickly. I would feel remiss not mentioning, even though by the time this comes out, it'll be a couple weeks after the fact, not mentioning the fact that Jimmy Kimmel was pulled from the air because of Donald Trump wanting him to be pulled from the air, which is very foreboding and scary. And then Donald Trump also posted that he's designating Antifa as a major terrorist organization. Except Antifa is not an organization. It just means antifascist, which means anybody who says that they are against him believing that he's a fascist could be designated a terrorist. That's one of the many culty things in our government at the moment.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

Love that for us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I love it. Yeah. I mean, it's a scary time. And yeah, comedians are. Don't they have like, jesters. Rights.

[Lola Blanc]

Gestures. Rights, yeah, because, well, yes, the king would like. But the king only wants jesters that make him look good. So.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, but it's just like even in, you know, medieval times, the jester could sometimes, you know, make radical points and the king wouldn't immediately behead them because they had the jester's rights.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know enough about that, but I would guess there are some kings who were like, hey, that jester wasn't flattering to me, so I'm going to put this head off with his head.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Many dad jesters.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, Dead Jesters is a fun band name.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Anyway. Yeah. Freedom of speech on all sides is something that we need and it's important. And I think Aaron is the epitome of somebody who's really leaning into their authentic voice. Shall we talk to them?

[Lola Blanc]

I love it. Let's do it.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

See mintmobile.com Power struggles, shady money, drugs, violence and broken promises.

[Lola Blanc]

It's a freaking war zone.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

These people are animals. There's no integrity, there's no loyalty. That's all gone.

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Aaron Goldenberg]

Book, book, book my deals. Let's get models in, let's get them out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome Erin Goldenberg to trust me in person.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Thank you for having me in person.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Thanks for being here in person after a plane and no sleep.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, yeah, that's a story. Yeah, I. I am not good with sleeping on planes at all. And yeah, for whatever reason, my body woke me up at 2am on the east coast, which means that I was awake at 11pm on the west coast here. So.

[Lola Blanc]

So you're floating in the studio right now.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I'm delirious. I have no idea what I'm gonna say.

[Lola Blanc]

That's exciting, actually.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I know, I know. Like, do I remember anything from my childhood? Who knows? Just gab about our outfits.

[Lola Blanc]

We do sleep deprivation on this podcast.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, yeah. Very effective tool.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, totally.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Anyway, anywho. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. Start off by telling us about your upbringing and what religion your family was.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Sure. Okay. That's. Why is it such a loaded question? So a big part of my upbringing was iblp, which is the Institute for Basic Living Principles. Life Life Principles.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I blocked it out. A big part of it was that. And so we are one of those families that had a lot of kids. I'm one of 11.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And it was very much kind of at far too young of an age drilled into us that families that have more kids, are superior in God's eyes because you're having more people to potentially be Christians, to spread God's word even further and all that stuff. It's called the, like, Quiverful. Yes. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. We just did an episode on this.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Somebody came up to me, or not came up to me. Somebody was talking to me the other day and said, you have a large family. Are you quiverful? I was like, how do you know? How do you know?

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's becoming a little more. Yeah. A little bit more in the zeitgeist, where people are like, quiverfall. And you're like, whoa.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Were you a homeschooled baby?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

For sure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Until 10th grade.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh. And then in 10th grade.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Well, I got bad. I. In 10th grade. I. Or leading up to that time, I think my mom was just overwhelmed at home with that many kids.

[Lola Blanc]

With 11 children, which are always.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Always a young child and always pregnant. I'm number two. So one of the oldest.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh.

[Lola Blanc]

So they were like, let's get him out of the house.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. Kind of. I think we, like, expressed a desire to go to school. And also a lot of our friends from church were starting to go to high school, whereas they had been homeschooled for most of their childhood. And it was. At first, it was like, a very controversial thing, but it was also, like, you know, put on the full armor of God and you'll be safe from all the influences of the evil.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Meanwhile, first day of school, you're, like, smoking a cigarette in the.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, right. Exactly. I immediately started giving somebody a blowjob. I. Funny enough. Or embarrassingly enough, one of my first days of my 10th grade science class was biology. And our teacher, very God's Not Dead style, if you're familiar with that movie. I don't know.

[Lola Blanc]

No.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Okay. God bless you. God's Not Dead is a Christian, like, extremist, evangelical.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God, I need to watch it.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yes. About, like, an atheist professor who, first day of class, he's like, I need everybody to write down on a sheet of paper. Your only assignment for today is to write down God is dead. And our main character, who's very Christian, is like, I can't believe they're making me do this in college. This is crazy. And so he writes, God's not Dead. And the conflict begins.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like serving Good Will Hunting, but stupid.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Just the dumbest. Good Will Hunting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If Matt Damon was an absolute idiot. Yeah. Yeah. So I. I had been prepped and primed, like, you know, in your science class, they might say evolution. And if they do, here are the talking points. So I, like, studied.

[Lola Blanc]

You had bullet points.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Exactly what I wanted to say. And she did kind of like first day class thing be like, so here's the thing. In this class, we teach science based on proven, you know, studied, blah, blah, blah. And we do teach evolution. Does anybody have a problem with that? And I was like, this is my moment. So I raised my hand. I was like, actually. And I have no idea what I said, because I was like, I was, like, shaking as I did it too. I, like, you know, knew that this was my moment to shine for Jesus. And this is like, my first day of school impression. And all I do remember is that she kind of said things I wasn't expecting. And so I got shut down. I was like, yeah, cool. Talk about whatever you want. I was like, oh, God, I didn't have an answer for that. And I felt like such a failure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Because I felt like my job was to convert everybody around me, including the teachers.

[Lola Blanc]

On day one neuroscience class.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

On day one, I needed to be the straightest, most Christian. And I failed at all of those. Yeah, I started trying to get pregnant.

[Megan Elizabeth]

About four years ago now.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

We were getting a little bit older, and it just kind of felt like the window could be closing.

[Lola Blanc]

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[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Right people in the right hands, and then to find out again that you're just not.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Power struggles, shady money, drugs, violence, and broken promises.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It's a freaking these people are animals.

[Lola Blanc]

There's no integrity, there's no loyalty.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's all gone. In the 1980s, modeling wasn't just a dream, it was a battlefield.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Book, book, book. Make deals. Let's get models in, let's get them out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And the models themselves, they carried scars that never fully healed till this day. Honestly, if I see a measuring tape, I freak out. The Model wars podcast peels back the glossy cover and reveals a High stakes game where survival meant more than beauty. Hosted by me, Vanessa Gregoriadis, this is the untold story of an industry built on ruthless ambition. Listen to Model wars on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lola Blanc]

In 1920, a magazine article announced something incredible.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Two young girls had photographed real fam fairies. But even more incredible, that article was.

[Lola Blanc]

Written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Man who invented Sherlock Holmes. How did he fall for that? Hoax is a new podcast from me.

[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

And me, Lizzie Logan.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Every episode we'll explore one of the.

[Lola Blanc]

Most audacious and ambitious tricks in history.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And try to answer the question why we believe what we believe. Listen to Hoax on the iHeartRadio app.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We talk about this a lot on here, but there's just this really huge divide between people who are living very literally in these church states of mind. Because, like, I'm at school and I'm like fighting for the Lord and it's like most people are just at recess.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And I'm like, what do you mean you weren't five years old and obsessed with the. That there are 20 demons in your bedroom?

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, 100% same.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, like that. There's spiritual warfare going on for your soul. That was just my daily life.

[Lola Blanc]

If I were to read the scenes in the Sweet Valley High books where they kissed and feel something, then the demons. See, that was my.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Y' all had demon fear.

[Lola Blanc]

Yours was hell.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, we didn't have demons in our world.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, yeah. Hell was a bit. I mean, Jesus. So I feel like I was raised in multiple, like cult or cult adjacent things all at once because I'm an overachiever, basically. So Messianic Judaism, in a way, it was just like an offset of Judaism that believes that Jesus is the Messiah and has come and whatever. We did that because grew up with a Jewish dad. And then IBLP came into the picture that really, really, I think, shaped the majority of our daily life and everything, as well as started going after temple to an assemblies of God church which also has like very, very authoritarian, strict leadership, is always right kind of things.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Pentecostal.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Pentecostal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Speaking in tongues.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah. I remember very distinctly a friend of mine at church one day, they explained that their family was gonna start going to a different church. And I remember this sadness that I felt. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe they're not a Christian anymore. Looking back now it's like, no, they're just going somewhere else. But we were so, like, programmed to believe, like, this is the only and right one.

[Lola Blanc]

That was when you were in Assemblies of God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Assemblies of God, Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

But within our Assemblies of God church, the IBLP teachings had, like, sort of invaded, which is the whole point of iblp, to, like, get an indoctrination. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

All churches across America, everywhere.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

We've talked to some people who were raised with ibl. Iblp. God, who can say it? B I B L E Curriculum as well. And, you know, interacted with Bill Gothard in unsavory ways. But the girls were always taught, of course, very little, because their role is to grow up and have children. What was the boy curriculum like?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Woof. So a few things I remember specifically is just like, everything for. For any gender was just shame and, like, blind obedience to authority. The men were meant to, like, just grow up to be these leaders. And so things like studying the Bible and I guess in weird ways, like practicing exerting authority in different ways.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's scary.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. So one of the things is basically, like, the umbrella principle with iblp. So, like, the first umbrella is Jesus, then it's the dad, mom, and children under here. So basically you would go by those levels and depending who was the oldest at home. So if, like, it was an oldest boy at home, like, you're in charge. You're the authority figure, and not just like, hey, can you watch the kids for a couple of hours? Like, no. You have permission to spank them. You have permission to, like, discipline and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my gosh.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And you were second oldest. Did you.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I was.

[Lola Blanc]

Get a little drunk on that power.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I mean, really fucking unfortunately. Yeah. Because it's like, we just.

[Lola Blanc]

You were talking about, of course you were children.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. I do like to think I was the fun sibling. I wasn't always beating my siblings or anything, but honestly, in talking to my siblings about a lot of this stuff, when shiny happy people came out on Amazon, which, if nobody's heard of it, that's a great way to get a big lesson on iblp. When it came out, our siblings group chat, like, blew the fuck up. Because in a way, we didn't realize all the aspects of our life that were stemming from iblp. We just knew it as our life.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And so I was even watching it again just in preparation for the interview. Cause I knew it would, like, make things fresh. And I was just like, oh, right. There's one quote from it where it basically said, IBLP makes every Father into a cult leader and every home into an island. So they are the be all, end all. And for the rest of your life, it's not until you turn 18 or anything like that. Like, our dad was very, very adamant that, you know, decisions, even when you're into adulthood, should be run by me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

If you're planning to marry somebody, like.

[Lola Blanc]

That needs to be, you know, even for the sons.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it got to the point later on that I was in my mid-20s and I had not yet moved out because I felt like I couldn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I felt like if I did, I would let the family down. I would. Cause there's so many responsibilities.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Because you're like half running the house at this point. I imagine there's. I mean, when you say your sibling group chat, that's a bigger group chat than I have.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

With friends.

[Megan Elizabeth]

With friends.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It's a bigger group chat than I can keep up with.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Like. Like that's a big group of people. And I'm. I'm sure that your responsibility wasn't. I mean, it was real, you know, like, you needed to help him.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Sure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In many ways.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And then also, like, trying to live our own lives. Like, in my mid-20s, of course, I had a job and I had, you know, my own extracurricular activities and. And all that. But it was. It's so clear to me, especially in hindsight, like, the level of trapped that I not just felt, but that I was, like, I was on Fun Fact. My parents divorced after having the 11 kids. I know. Shame, shame. They divorced. And that is where things really, really started changing in our house. Like, our mom woke the fuck up. She put all the kids in school.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And that, I think was like, the best thing for them because I think they. They were just exposed to things at such a younger age that I was not. I had already been programmed. Like, all of these things are evil. Watch out for gay people or people that listen to rock music. I. I think by going to school at a younger age, they still had a chance.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And I think that proved to be the case with how well adjusted most of them are in ways that I'm like. I mean, one of my younger sisters, she's maybe number seven or something, has a master's degree and is in a high position at work and gets things like paid time off. I was like, when I was your age, I felt trapped at home, responsible for all these things that I definitely was not. Anytime I would try to set boundaries because we were not taught boundaries. That's a big thing in iblp. Like, anything the authority figure says is not just what you're supposed to do, but it's God's will.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

So if you're disobeying them, you're disobeying God. So, yeah, just to see how they have flourished and thrived. I also really, really love that. Part of the reason my dad had so many kids is to raise all these soldiers for Christ. And Now I think 10 out of the 11 of us vote Democrat and, like, half of us are gay. So just, like, the devil won.

[Lola Blanc]

Sorry, Daddy.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Sorry, dad.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is your dad still in all these strict movements?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

You know what? I don't talk to him. I've definitely, like, had a clean cut from that. It's one of the best decisions I ever made. It got to a certain point where I asked myself, if this person was not blood related to me and just a random adult that I knew from church or from work or whatever, would I want them in my life? Would I want them giving me unsolicited advice or governing me or instructing me on how to do things? No, I would think they're a crazy person, right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I would think they're awful and manipulative and, you know, insert descriptive word here. That was just a moment for me where I didn't think, oh, I'm gonna cut him off for the rest of my life. But it's been seven years at this point, and I do think about it sometimes. I'm like, do I want to reintroduce that relationship? And the answer right now is no. Like, I'm good.

[Lola Blanc]

If that's what's healthy. That's totally for you. Like, that's totally fair. Can we go back in time.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Sure.

[Lola Blanc]

And talk about your relationship with your sexuality and how your parents responded to that? Let's discover that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And how you discovered some context for this.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, how I discovered it. I honestly, honestly, girls, I felt really gay from a really young age.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Like before the age of 10, before puberty or anything like that. Like 7. I was for sure, like, attracted to my guy friends in a different way than girls. And I knew that prior to knowing what sex or sexuality or anything was, I just knew that I wanted to see what their bodies looked like, you know. And so, yeah, from a young age, I was, like, experimenting with friends. But it was also very, very clearly taught within the church, iblp, all that. That, like, it was not only a sin and, you know, demons and all that, but also that it like, being gay wasn't real. Like, it's not a real thing. Oh, wait, tell me it's not a real thing. Because what it is is, like, it's a sin and it's a choice. So equal to saying, like, if you commit adultery, are you an adulterer? No, you're just a person that's committed adultery.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I see.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

So being gay is, like, the sin of gay.

[Lola Blanc]

Right?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

You're not identified by that thing. You've just done that thing, and Jesus can heal it and take it away and whatever it is. So before I really knew what I was doing, I knew that it needed to, like, be secret. I definitely was a bit more of a flamboyant and artistically drawn young kid. I loved to dance. I knew from, like, the age of four that I wanted to be an actor. My favorite movie at, like, a really young age was the Little Mermaid. Like, just very, very. Like, if I saw that kid, I would be like, oh, they're gay. I hope their parents accept them. And for me, the people that I was surrounded with, whether it was my parents or other people, I think we're in, like, an act. I don't think it's just, like, denial. I think it's an act of denial. Like, we need to explain to this child why they're not gay. So something along the lines of, oh, you like Ariel? Is it because you think she's really pretty and you want to marry her? Is that why? That's why. Right. And then, like, really, really intentionally asking, like, what girls do you have a crush on? You know, so I. I was programmed to know that I needed to answer these questions a certain way.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And. Oh, you like to dance. Just like David, dance before the Lord. You know, the manliest biblical figure there is. You know, praise God, Praise him, bless him.

[Lola Blanc]

When did you become aware that there was dissonance between how you felt and what you were supposed to do or feel?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I think at a certain age, I realized that my friends started dating girls, and I was not the one girl that I liked at church. I asked her out, she said no. Also, dating and courtship and all that is a whole other thing with iblp. Like, it's. You don't ask somebody on a date unless you believe that you're meant to marry them. So I was like, she's the prettiest, most popular girl at church. I'm probably meant to marry her.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I love your math.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And then I remember, like, such a toxic, masculinity, reflexive thought for me, but it was how men were around me was when she said no, I felt not just a normal amount of rejection, but I felt angry. I felt like she had done something wrong by saying no to me at 13, which is so creepy.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I mean, don't you notice that if you reject a man, the only way he'll accept it is if you're like, I have a boyfriend.

[Lola Blanc]

I've never rejected him.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Sometimes not even that. Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's just my, like. So that I don't get murdered. I'm like, I have a boyfriend.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

It's true. I'm trying to be better about being honest.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Good to you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, it just. Yeah. It doesn't. It doesn't work for me.

[Lola Blanc]

Only if it's someone who I know is not gonna kill me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right, right.

[Lola Blanc]

Which you don't know. You don't ever know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You don't ever know.

[Lola Blanc]

But I have a good, reasonable suspicion.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What a great thing to note that she says no. You're like, fuck you.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. And what the fuck do you mean, no?

[Megan Elizabeth]

This programming is just being thrust upon all of these young men, and I'm sure men who are actually attracted to these women.

[Lola Blanc]

I was gonna say even more so.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is like affecting them. The rage. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

If you don't even wanna date girls and you're feeling that. I can only IM what straight boys are, how they're responding to that culture.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Totally. And I think that even though it's a very IBLP training, I think that has really infiltrated even secular America. Just like in the toxic masculinity and the response to rejection from women. Or there's a big thing in Bill Gothard's teaching about dressing modestly, especially for women. And. And basically, look at.

[Lola Blanc]

Looking at our skirt.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I know this. So cute, by the way.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Clothing swap.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Clothing swap. I love that. I've been to that kind of. But yeah, like, very, very victim blamey, you know, like the epitome of what would. Well, what was she wearing?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right. I think the IBLP is that what.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. It sounds like it's a disease. As you said it. It is one of the most abusive. Not that you can like, rank things, but it is just pure abuse.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It is training people to be brainwashed victims.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And training them also to make sure that they don't feel empowered to tell on leadership. Because that would potentially, like, be a negative picture of the church.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And that would be worse than anything.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, so many of the churches we talk about are like that. I think it's so Interesting, because most. I mean, I don't know if we count IBLP as a cult, but compared to traditional cults, it's so interesting because, like you said, instead of it being like, Bill Gothard is directly interacting with all of these people.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

He's just empowering all these men.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. To dominate and to control and to not give their families a say in their lives.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, the question about what.

[Lola Blanc]

Franchising it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The question about what the men were learning was such a great question, Lola. And at first I was excited because you were like, we were studying, and I was like, wonderful. And then you're like, the Bible. Yeah. Like, cool.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So, I mean, was there mathematics?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, like in the homeschool. Yeah, there was. I. I don't. I don't recall us, like, specifically always doing, like, the IBLP homeschooling curriculum.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got you.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

We. We started in books, and then there were, like, computer homeschool programs as well, and so we kind of graduated to that. But the most important thing, regardless of whatever else you know, is to know the Bible and to know how to, like, convert people, Basically. There is one of the principles. There's, like, 25 principles of IBLP, and one of them is persuasion.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Whoa.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It's a principle to teach people persuasion. And the definition is something like, I'm gonna get it wrong, but it's something along the lines of helping somebody understand what is actually correct.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Aha. Oh, how kind.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Right? Yeah. Oh, gosh. Thank you. Yeah. Whether they want it or not, it's in the Shining, Happy People documentary. It's like, a very quick thing, but I paused it and read it, and I was like, oh, that is so gross and manipulative, and to tout that as a virtue or something that should. That everybody should aspire to. One funny story, just because I'll forget it later. As an example of, like, the. The authority that my father felt like he had over us, the moment any of us turned 18, he would drive all of us to go vote and would give us a sheet of paper and say, this is what to do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Damn.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

You don't even have to research it.

[Lola Blanc]

Damn.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Here's all the answers for you. And at a certain point, I started saying, well, that doesn't feel good. We talk about the Democrats all being uninformed voters, and they just voted for Obama because he was black. Like, all of the awful, awful things that I can't believe that I thought or said or wrote on my Facebook page. And I remember one election, it was like a midterm, so it Wasn't a presidential. But one of the really, really big things of IBLP is, like, political change. Like, grooming these young kids to grow up to be Christian leaders who also, like, infiltrate politics and thus change the laws of the nation. Yeah, the nation. Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Which I feel like has exactly been what's happening. Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

People like Josh Hawley. I don't know if he was specifically iblp, but, like, what a weirdo. Anyway, he picked me up from work one night, and I knew that the voting thing was gonna come up because I hadn't yet voted. And he knew that. And so he asked me, and I said, you know, I don't think I'm gonna vote in this election. I just. I don't have time to research and stuff. And he said, well, I'll give you the paper. And I was like, no, I would like to do my own research and decide who I would like to vote for. And he went off. I actually wrote about it in my journal and read that journal entry recently. And there were so many things he said that I didn't remember. But he was like, you're just like, la de da. Voting is so important. ISIS could be at our door next week. And you'd be twiddling your thumbs and I'd be screaming like, come here. And you would just be standing there and you would get us all killed. And it was like, isis, I come to your side. ISIS was a really big threat back then. Yeah, that was like the big thing. And. And I remember just saying, yeah, I'm not gonna do it.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow, good for you.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Well, the. Here's the kicker. He goes, aaron, do you believe in God? And I said, yeah. Like, he just picked me up from the church that I work at. And he said, well, then, in the name of Jesus, I command you to vote. And I said, you are taking the Lord's name in vain and refuse to accept that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, shit, this is the best Christian fight of all time.

[Lola Blanc]

I love it.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I felt so. It was how I should have felt in that biology class. I was like, oh. I said the thing that shut them down. And, yeah, I didn't vote that election. And that in itself felt like one of the most empowering first steps for me. I think I moved out like, a year later. I was just taking small steps to separate myself from this man who had enmeshed himself not just emotionally, but legally on paper. Because my parents got divorced, I was now the co owner of all the cars. He kind of treated me as the. As the wife legally. And so I was like, holy shit, I want to be removed from all these things. And he had a hissy fit. He didn't know what to do with himself. Delayed, delayed, delayed. I had a joint bank account with him. Like, it was, it was so wild to think about the therapy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can't even like.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Thank God I'm in therapy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I mean that.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I, I, I want to just throw something out there that I'm curious about. Yalls thoughts on. I don't know if we've ever touched upon this, but like, for example, I, I read a lot in my ex group that a lot of the things that we were taught to do, such as being an example or a total fucking weirdo, was not actually to convert anybody. It was more to keep us isolated so that we didn't leave. Because, you know, no one ever joined our church because of me. But a lot of people bullied me.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. I also just thought my church was so weird that I didn't want to invite people to school.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Never.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Like every Sunday they'd be like, invite your friends. They're going to hell. And I'd be like, yeah, I don't want to invite them here. This is. You guys are so weird. And then I would invite people and they'd be like, this is where you go every Sunday. Cool.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, mine was just three hours of the most boring shit you could possibly imagine. So I was like, I, I don't think anyone will.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, I wouldn't make my friends go, like, to spend the night. Like, if they had to spend the night on Saturday night, they would have to go with us on Sunday morning. And I'd be like, you're coming?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And they'd be like, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

In Mormonism, the conversion is a genuine goal because they are a church of growth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, yeah. But people convert to Mormonism.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, kind of makes sense. I feel like even just from a business standpoint, like, I feel like it's like a, it's a hub of like, it's a social network in many ways.

[Lola Blanc]

Is it?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Yeah. Michael did not have that element.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Speaking of influence, I feel like something in reading through my old journals that I realized is I had secular friends, but I could tell by the way that I was writing, because I was writing from a brainwashed person's perspective that part of my reason for wanting to hang out with them or to be nice to them and all that stuff was so that they would believe in God or see Christ in me. And so thinking back through all of the actions that I took or days or years, That I was friends with people just so that they might get saved is so sad because I never really back then I don't think I had many, like true, genuine agenda free relationships.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow, that's so sad.

[Lola Blanc]

It is sad. It's also, I don't. You generally, you think of agenda based friendships as they will give me something like, sure, I will get a role from this person. But instead you wanted to save them, which is so interesting. And like, what would happen if you saved them? What would that mean about you?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It would mean I saved one person because I mean, I was not very good at it. I had a friend who their family was also iblp their dad. Basically anytime we'd go over, I hated their dad. He was so judgmental constantly. It was his job. So we would just be there playing like children. And he'd be like, so Aaron, how many people have you led to Christ? And I'd be like, he's like, yeah, the prayer of salvation. Like, how many people have you? And I'm like, well, I'm 12, I'm homeschooled, so I'm mostly surrounded by my siblings. And I was like, none. And he's like, that's really none.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Do you know how? Do you even know how? And he was not only iblp, but he was like one of those legit street preachers. Like he would go to Miami beach with signs and like all that shit. So like one of those guys. So he felt that at my age of 12, I should have already, you know, prayed the sinner's prayer whether they want to or not, with like 60, 100. I mean, good on you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

For, for admitting none. I would have been like, it was so hard.

[Lola Blanc]

I would have sent like a few.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I would have said five.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know, probably a couple.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I did, I did delay. I think I was like, oh, let me think.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Zero.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Right, right, right. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Well, there's. Well, no, he, he didn't, you know, like going through the itinerary, going back to a previous question, like ages ago, like, how. How did my parents accept me being gay and. And all that stuff? So basically I kept experimenting with friends and experimenting, got into like actual what I would consider more like sexual activity as opposed to just like more innocent stuff. And at the age of 15, my, my mom and dad one day invited me to their room, which could have been a good thing, but I had a weird feeling. And my dad plopped three sheets of printed Internet history onto the bed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh no.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And said, what Is this.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, no.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And one thing I don't know if I've ever had, the conscious daughter said it out loud. It was like the fact that they knew it had to be me means that you fucking knew, right?

[Lola Blanc]

Totally.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And chose not to address it. Chose not to. Whatever. And at the age of 15, I was getting near planning to come out. And what I believed that meant for me was hell and eternal damnation that I wasn't gonna be a Christian anymore. But I was kind of in a place where I was ready to accept that for myself if it just meant letting this fucking secret go. So sat down with my parents. My mom started bawling. She had to leave the room. And I kind of told them about my life so far, the life that they weren't privy to, the molestation that had occurred up to that point. The just, you know, experimenting with friends and all that stuff. And I definitely was coming at it from a place of shame, like, oh, I'm a bad person, but at least. Oh, God, this feels finally good to get it all out there, right? And I didn't know what I thought the end of the conversation was gonna be, but my dad basically listened and at the end of it was like, well, you know, there's help for this. And I said, yeah, I get, you know, I think I had, like, heard things about like, you know, gay people becoming straight. But then that would also mean I had to admit that I was attracted to men and I didn't want to do that, right? So I was like, yeah. And he said, I need to talk to the pastors. And I was like, you have to tell our pastors.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, no.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And so I just felt like the black sheep of the church for a while. I wasn't able to serve. I wasn't allowed to serve in, like, children's ministry anymore. I wasn't able to, like, sing on stage. I wasn't allowed to, like, all the things that I.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like, what happened to my mom when she was excommunicated, like, except that.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I was still forced to go every single week. Right. And so I guess basically, like, the church agreed to pay for therapy for me once a week. So I had therapy once a week for a year.

[Lola Blanc]

Therapy was in quotation marks.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Right? Okay. Yes, yes, yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So. So what does a this church or the church recommend for somebody who is gay?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Conversion therapy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, I don't know if they call it that, but it's. Or therapy for people with same sex attraction. The word gay is not a. Not a thing. Like, you have same sex attraction.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Same sex attraction. Sounds hotter than gay.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Does it to me. Ooh, I've never thought of it that way.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, it's got sex in it.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So many S's, so many X's. So, no, you can't say gay. Okay.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. There was no way I was. That. It was. I was demon possessed. It was because I was molested. Even though I was molested after I already like, very clearly had feelings for guys. So what I learned in conversion therapy, which I did that along with reading so many pamphlets, which every 15 year old kid wants to do on top of homework, so many pamphlets, watching DVDs of testimonies of people saying, this is my life now. I'm married, this is my wife, blah, blah, blah. And a lot of those were produced by Exodus International.

[Lola Blanc]

That's what I was gonna ask about.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah. So Exodus International, for those who don't know, is a now disbanded, but they were like the big ex gay in quotes organization for like 30 years or something like that. And basically at the end of it, the leaders came out and said, we have not seen one successful case.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

We ourselves are not changed. We are still attracted. One of the. One of the guys that was like a CEO or something ended up, like getting into a relationship with another guy that was like, ahead of Exodus.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. Juicy.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Will they or won't they? I know they for like 30 years.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I know. Definitely fucking, like, while the organization was still there. But I obviously was coming into it at a time where they were still happening. So, like, I went to conferences and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Were you like, literally, Were you taking this literally? Were you like, I will be un gay?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the things looking back at like teenage Aaron, I really wanted to do the right thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And whether that was like religiously or interpersonally or definitely with this, like, I wanted to be the good kid. And I felt that by doing this therapy, doing all these things, that it would happen for me, that it would go away. And that's kind of what is taught with Exodus International and any conversion therapy. Like, if you do these things, if you heal these core wounds from your past. So, for example, the big ones that I kind of harped on was like, okay, molestation and bad relationship with my dad. Never really had a great relationship with my dad. So is part of it his fault? I got like really angry at him for a while that I had struggled with this and then just kind of came to the realization, all right, well, I need to have a better relationship. With him, which actually made me go into even more toxic obedience with him in, like, as the head of the household and everything, because I felt that by, you know, obeying better or having a better relationship with him, whatever, that meant that would be part of what made me straight gay removed. Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And it clearly didn't work.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm just so curious about the. I mean, I heard you say on another podcast, you don't really remember what you guys talked about in therapy every week.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. Wow. You did your research. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

What podcast was that?

[Lola Blanc]

I don't remember. But are there any, like, things you have in your head that came from that experience?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, basically, like, the main things I walked away from that therapy experience with was the belief that I wasn't really gay. It was a sin, it was a flaw. It was like a thing that was broken about me that I could heal it or that God could heal it if he so willed, and that if I just did the right things, it would go away. That was basically what I walked away with. And so what ends up happening, not just for me, but for so many people that have gone through conversion therapy, is we really want it to go away because we've been teased, we've felt like the outsiders. We see everybody getting married and apparently, like, very attracted to the opposite sex. And it's like, why am I not normal? Like, what's wrong with me?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. This heteronormative fairy tale that not only are you left out of, but also you're going to have.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Right. Right. For something that I didn't choose that I'm not doing on. Choose that you don't want that I don't want that I'm not doing on purpose and doing all the right things, and it's still not going away. And so the message that I internalized from that, from years and years of trying my best, was, oh, there's something extra wrong with me that I can't get this to stop.

[Lola Blanc]

Cause I'm doing all the right things.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you're like a very, I mean, I'm assuming you seem like a very, like, type a person. Just like, I'm gonna get this, you know, like. And so I just imagine the pain being so excruciating.

[Lola Blanc]

It's very.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I, I, I'm, it's just very hard to think about what must have been going on for you.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And I have to imagine it creates, and you can tell me if it does or it doesn't, but I imagine it creates an ocd, like, thought process. Where you're like, was that a gay thought? Was that a gay thought? Was that a gay thought?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and then, you know, let's say I had gay thoughts two days in a row. Oh my God, the devil is winning. And I'm like slipping more and more into that. And I mean, growing up, how I did, sheltered how I did, I didn't know, or so I thought. I mean, clearly I knew gay people because they just exist. But I didn't know any gay people. I didn't see gay people around me. Anytime they were on tv, it would be like, you know, parents would like change the channel really quick or even like cover up the tv. Like it was so evil.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Taboo.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. And that was one of the things that finally, finally in my late 20s where I started questioning it. I listening to a recent podcast, heard that one of you is sober. One of you is an Al Anon. I'm also sober.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm the sober one.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm the Al Anon one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Great.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I got into the program and one of the things is just radical honesty and making an inventory of like everything you've ever done. And I remember I literally wrote a note for my sponsor, which in short, cause we were about to go over my sex inventory that day and I knew that for me my sex inventory was homosex. And I basically gave him a disclaimer. I don't remember what it said exactly, but it was basically like, you're about to hear a lot of gay shit. But just so you know, I'm not gay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh my God.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And so even then, even like as a nearly, you know, 30 year old adult, I was still so, so hanging on to those teachings of when I was 15, of course. So even though I had still, you know, slipped and whatever, but at that point I was like five years celibate and I was like very proud of myself and, you know, felt like I was heading in the right direction. I had been dating a girl for two years.

[Lola Blanc]

Really?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. And we never did anything beyond kissing. But I was also at a point in my life where I was practicing honesty. Anyway, so like the church that I mentioned that I was working at in my job interview, for them, the question was simply, what's your relationship with God like? And I started crying immediately and I basically told them like my whole story and it ended with, you know, this is a struggle I have, but I know that God has a better plan for me and wants me to marry a woman which is in any other job interview situation, the weirdest. Could you Imagine somebody talking about, like, a normal job interview. But that church was like, thank you so much for sharing your vulnerability. Like, it just made so much sense to them. Yeah. So I worked there for years and years, met my girlfriend there and told her before we started dating, this is my life story. I've only ever been with guys. I've only ever been attracted to guys. But I know that God wants me to marry a woman, all that stuff. And she, you know, at some point also was like, I really want to save it for marriage. And I was like, yes, absolutely perfect.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No problem.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Definitely. So anyway, she broke up with me, thank God, because I was determined to, like, go to. You're gonna go all the way to the end. Yeah. I had already asked her parents for, like, for to be able to marry her and was looking at buying a ring, but because I was being honest with her and telling her, like, hey, today I looked at a guy today. Last night, I had a weird dream. Like a sexy homo dream, whatever. She finally broke up with me, and it was probably one of the best decisions she's ever made. And it was the best thing for me because it broke my heart and it shattered. It shattered this, like, oh, I thought I finally was gonna get it. I thought I finally was gonna accomplish that goal that I've had for so long. And this was the person I was gonna do that with. And out of that, like, deep bottom.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was a forest.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Rock bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Went to the program and anyway, I was doing my steps back to the fourth step with my sponsor, said, you're about to hear a bunch of gay shit, Whatever. Went over my sex inventory. And he just kind of slowly nodded and he goes, so I don't want to accuse you of anything. And please know that I don't mean this in a bad way. I just want to point out that all the names you listed were guys names. And I said, yeah, there are lots of straight men who only have sex with men. And I said that, completely convinced of the word, the idiotic words coming out of my mouth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And he said, no, there are not. Aaron, that's not a thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh.

[Lola Blanc]

What did you feel when he said that?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Well, I thought he was wrong, obviously. You were like, you're crazy. I was like, you just don't understand. Like, I'm straight. What part of this did you not get? But, yeah, it was slowly as I kept doing the steps and kept also just being in a new environment that was not heavily Christian. It was just people from all different kinds of religions. With their own interpretations of what God was. People of all different sexualities. And nothing was through the lens of the teachings that I had grown up with. So it was just seeing the world and seeing people in a whole new light. I finally started giving myself permission to ask questions, which, in all of these things, whether it's Assemblies of God or IBLP or Exodus International, don't ask questions that contradict, like, anything. So I remember one of the big aha moments for me was, okay, so God loves straight people getting together. He just loves it. I know that. But God sees a straight couple on a date, on a coffee date, and it's beautiful. And he's cheering and he's going, yes, they're probably gonna eventually have sex. And that's amazing. God is a perv, you guys.

[Lola Blanc]

Only once they're married.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Only once they're married, of course. But, like, he's. Like. I was taught that he rejoices when he sees two people, straight people, doing that. And so I was like, so two straight people? It's a really beautiful thing. But if it's a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, somehow that same exact scenario is evil. That doesn't make sense. And just allowing myself to have that simple thought started really cracking the facade. So that turned into, okay, if God loves everyone, and maybe, what if this isn't a sin for me? What if it just is part of who I am? And what if God not only doesn't hate it about me, but actually sees it as something that's beautiful about me? And just asking myself that question, which I had never come close to anything like that again, just started to, like, chip away. And I started to accept myself, really, for the first time. And I did the classic thing of, like, I'm bisexual, but I'll probably still marry a woman. Like, it was a very slow. It wasn't just like, I'm gay now, but eventually coming to that place of being able to say and accept that about myself and not see it as a flaw or something evil or something to politically fight against or any of these things. It was just a picture part of me and something that might actually be a great part of me. And so for the last however many years, I can't count, you guys. I don't know how old I am.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, there's no age here.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. Since then, it's been a journey of undoing a lot of those old core beliefs and being able to just have things like normal friendships where I'm not, like, trying to convince them into My, like, evangelicalize. Is that a word? Evangelize, you guys. Did I mention I've been up since 11:00pm Pacific Time? Yeah. To, like, evangelize them into, like, brainwashing them, which was seen as a good thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you get to be a human being.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Having actual authentic connection with other people.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. And I remember. So, like, I said, I was, like, five years celibate. I did the thing because I'm type A and I wanna be a good student. I did the thing where I went through, like, a year of AA and no sex, no relationships or anything. My sponsor was even like, you can have sex. Like, please do something. But I was like, no, I wanna wait for the year. So I did. And I remember it just being. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that was fucking great. This is. Thank God. It was a good experience.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Being celibate.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

No, I'm sorry. Having sex for the first time.

[Lola Blanc]

I know. That's what I thought, too. I was like, wait, I can say.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

So after having sex for the first time, after five years, it was such a wonderful experience. And I remember thinking, like, yeah, I'm gonna do this.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm gonna do this a lot.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And being able to have that experience and not feel the deep shame afterwards.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank God.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And being able to say, like, that just happened. It just is. One of my therapists, I'm so, so grateful for her. Like, one of the key things I'll take away from her is, like, as far as she was the one I was seeing, like, during that time, and I was, again, a good student, so I was keeping track of, like, names, how many people, like, from the time I was fucking, four.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Like, I knew exactly how many people. And in hindsight, wasn't that many back then, but it was like, a shameful number to me. And I remember one day kind of getting embarrassed and, like, I. I stopped counting and she was like, good, because that number doesn't have to mean anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I counted for a long time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I also counted, wrote all the names down. My father found it.

[Lola Blanc]

No, he didn't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Brought it to my therapist and was like, I'm a bit worried about this. And I said, these are just people that I think are cute.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

The next stage name was, like, bj.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was like, cool, cool, cool, cool. You know, there's just shame around sexuality, I think, for. Even if it's street sex, you know, like. Like, it's just in our culture and narrative. And it's so unfortunate, I was gonna.

[Lola Blanc]

Say, the fact that you were able to have that sex after that period.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And not feel shame, it's so cool.

[Lola Blanc]

Is incredibly impressive.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. Power of sobriety, the work you've been doing, like.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. I had shame after straight ass sex for years.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Straight ass sex or straight.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, okay, a little bit of both. I was Mormon, remember?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. What do you say to somebody who's deconstructing beliefs about sexuality, separating it from the religious views they were growing up and in general? And then I'm gonna ask a follow up question after that.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I would say to them, you're gay. That's what I would say to my younger self, like, hey, you're gay. And that's okay. Like just that simple message, but like really accepting that fully for what those words mean. I think the, the cognitive dissonance was there for so long with not just IBLP stuff, but with the conversion therapy teachings. I had questions I had. Well, that doesn't make sense because like I met this person in their gay and they seem really nice. They didn't seem demon possessed or they were like a nice person.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Am I a bad person for thinking that they're nice? So I would say if you have questions and you are specifically in an environment that doesn't allow or encourage questions, find somebody around you to have those conversations with, whether it's somebody else in that same place as you that you kind of test the waters and be like, okay, wait, can we talk about this? Because I don't think this is like, nowadays there's so many more resources online of people that have probably been where you're at and have come out of it. I remember when Exodus International was disbanded because I was still very deeply brainwashed. I didn't see that and see their statements as, oh, wait, wait, this isn't real. I saw it as, oh no, the devil is winning.

[Lola Blanc]

Devil got on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's what was my second question. Cause one of the young men I'm in contact with in my life keeps saying, but what if this is the devil tricking me?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, and like, how do you. That cognitive bias, how do you respond to that?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

I mean, I don't believe the devil's real, so that's easier for me now. But yeah, but I, I heard the other day somebody on TikTok or something talking about, like when you, when you say to a Christian, you know, the feelings you have are not the Holy Spirit, it's groupthink, it's the music and whatever, or if you feel afraid that's not the devil. That's demons. That's your body telling you something's wrong. But you're trained from such a young age to believe that any happy, joyful feeling is God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus. It's a good thing. And any slightly uncomfortable thing is demons and devil and temptation and whatever. But also it truly is the perspective about it. Like, I now live a life that my younger self would probably have just seen this objective other person, been like, well, that person is clearly deceived and they're going to hell and all this stuff. However, nowadays I don't want to kill myself. Nowadays I can walk around, relax, and I'm not trying to modify my voice to be lower or walk a certain way or. Or lie to people all the time about what my testimony is or whatever it is. Like, I can just be a human and I don't know, I would say to that young person, like, just keep asking questions. I think the process is so different for everybody. And for me, the fact that it was from the start of conversion therapy to when I came out. Thirteen years, I'm sure that's longer. Like, that's a long fucking time.

[Lola Blanc]

Long time. Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And yeah, but if I. Gosh, I hope the best for them. I mean, like, looking online, like I said, I knew the Exodus was disbanded and so I was looking for desperately for testimonies of people saying to affirm what I believed.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

And all I could find was the opposite. And I was like, have they wiped them from the Internet? Have they? I just couldn't believe that these people were correct. Like, I had to believe what I grew up with. And yeah, I firmly believe that the church and its teachings, as well as conversion therapy stole decades of my life.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Of just being able to live comfortably in my own skin and be an authentic person.

[Lola Blanc]

And now you're walking around feeling good.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

So gay in tight ass jeans.

[Lola Blanc]

I love that. It's like it was just about allowing yourself some space to ask the things you are too scared to ask. Cause it's just always. It always comes down to that.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Talking to someone or just allowing yourself to not be afraid to like look in that little corner in your brain and be like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But what if because your brain is unconscious, asking it. And when I think of cognitive dissonance, I think of like two just like completely opposing notes playing in your brain and like one of them is unconscious and it's like so wild.

[Lola Blanc]

Try to do two notes at once.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. It's just. Yeah. Sometimes you just gotta ask the questions.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, scary questions. Yeah. Well, I know that you are no longer a Christian, but if there were somebody who still very much believes in Christianity and loves Jesus and doesn't want to leave Christianity, like how have you seen people be able to reconcile those things healthily?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

My sponsor is one of them.

[Lola Blanc]

Really?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, he's gay. He's been married for 20 something years. I don't remember where they got married, but some really cool state that allowed it back then. I do know people who still are very, very firm in their faith and go to church and all that stuff. I just know that that's not me. Part of my deconstruction was not just asking all the questions about my sexuality, but asking all the questions like finally allowing myself to look at arguments against the Bible and God as opposed to only coming back with scripture and all that. So allowing myself to actually look at videos from an atheist perspective or listening to podcasts where people just talked very open and freely about their journey from faith to where they are now and hearing them as like, oh, these aren't bad people, these aren't ill meaning people, these are just. I actually kind of like them. I actually might think I am one of these people. And again, that process took a few years too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But you gotta be patient with yourself, you know. Cause lifetime of beliefs take a bit of time to undo certainly, you know, are we missing anything about your story? That's. I mean, I know there's so much. I wanna see the show, I wanna see the.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah. I'm writing a book, of course. Amazingly must, which is part of the reason I've been going through my old journals. It's tentatively currently titled Journal of a Gay Christian. So it's reexamining those old journal entries which is coming from the perspective of a very brainwashed type A person and being able to reflect on those modern day. And then also just like telling stories maybe that aren't attached to a journal because I didn't journal that day. But it was like a formative moment for me. There's one journal entry that I just laugh. I can't do anything but laugh because it's basically me describing a very like not even a sexual dream, but just an intimate dream. It says something like, last night I dreamed that I cuddled naked with a friend. And I know that that's not actually sexual desire. What that means is that I'm really longing for close male friendships and that will basically like lead to those feelings going away. And I read that and I'm just like Occam's razor. Buddy, you're gay.

[Lola Blanc]

Like the mental pretzels.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I can't imagine.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It's all pseudoscience and pretzels and not the good kind dipped into the pretzels.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, not the Wetzels.

[Lola Blanc]

Ooh, give me a Wetzel.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I want to go to the mall and get a Wetzel.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, my God. Have you been ordered them at the movie theaters recently? They are gigantic.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I've seen.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

They're huge.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, I haven't.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It's so, so many calories. I'm sure. But I. Anyway, they're insane and important. And important for this podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. We are sponsored by Wetzel's Pretzel.

[Lola Blanc]

We are not, but I would eat some for free if offered. Yes. Where can people find you and your hilarious videos and your acting skills?

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, my gosh. You can find me on social media anywhere. Eringoldiboy. Aaron. G O L D Y Boy, if you're really curious to see any of my acting work, IMDb is a good resource. I was just in the hunting wime, so it's just the gayest show on Netflix.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's the biggest show in the world right now.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God. I still have to watch it.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

You'll see me in episode five.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can't wait. That's amazing.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Blink and you'll miss it. But it's. Whatever. So fun. So fun.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're going. They're gonna ask you back.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's the thing.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Oh, they're gonna get renewed. They have to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, obviously. That's the thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. People are obsessed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, obsessed. Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

It's such a gay show.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, but, like, what? Just taking a moment to celebrate what an incredible arc you've had. Like, you're on this beautiful, cool journey, and I like going from. From Bill Gothard to being on the Hunting Wives is so cool. It makes me happy.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah. Yeah, me too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Congratulations.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, thanks.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

We're also starting to do screenings of a new movie that I'm in called we're so Dead. It is a horror comedy that takes place in a restaurant.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Love it.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

So it's servers versus the, like, crazy Karen. And it's.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

So, so fun. We're doing screenings around the country so you can check out. I think it's weirsodeadmovie.com to see if there's a screening near you. And I might be there if I'm not shooting Hunting Wife season two.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Perfect.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you so much for being on.

[Lola Blanc]

My pleasure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. Erin. Aaron. Aaron. Aaron. Aaron. What an unbelievable conversation.

[Lola Blanc]

I know, I know. I don't know exactly what to ask you because I'm guessing conversion therapy would not be something you would join.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I mean, if there's any. Any new listeners, at the end of the episode, usually we ask if I would join the cult that we've discussed. And unfortunately, many a time I would. And my naivety. But conversion therapy, that's a hard one. I definitely have like a more fluid sexuality and have since I was young. And there were so many things that I felt super guilty about, but that oddly, wasn't one of them. Maybe it's very deeply, unconsciously, like, torturing me because there was definitely anti gay rhetoric being spread around me and the two by twos as it just being like a wrong thing to do. But yeah, I absolutely hate that anybody was forced to go through this. Breaks my heart.

[Lola Blanc]

I know, I know. I. Yeah. You know, interestingly, even when I was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

A little Mormon, were you like a small child being Mormon or were you just like a tiny bit Mormon?

[Lola Blanc]

Depending on the era. Either one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

As a. As a preteen, shall we say, the Mormon Church was very. I mean, has historically been very not LGBTQ friendly and, you know, campaigning against gay marriage and all this stuff. But I don't know, like, that part just like, never penetrated for me. Yeah, I'm very straight. I've always been very straight. But in middle school, maybe we've talked about this. I was one of, like, three kids in the Gay Straight alliance because I would be so mad when people would be mean to the queer kids. That's not like, I guess that's just my mom's values just like, be kind to everyone.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I was gonna say I got really lucky with my parents. Even though they were generationally raised in the two by twos, like their parents, their grandparents, there was so much guilt about so many things being selfish, you know, just not being good, quote unquote. But to their credit, my parents credit, they had a very open mind towards people of different sexualities and of different races. And that's probably why I don't have the guilt about that particular subject. So I dodged some definite bullets there. That's nice. But, yeah, it's just so cruel and it really needs to stop because like Aaron so eloquently points out, it doesn't fucking work. So.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God, no. And the head of that organization Exits International. I was actually looking him up and he's like a really vocal anti conversion therapy. Yes speaker. I don't know if he counts as an activist. We should totally talk to him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We really should. And I was just gonna say Aaron references it in the conversation, I believe, but like, he said that the leader of Exodus International himself was like, hey, this never worked ever.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, because of course not.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Of course not.

[Lola Blanc]

People are who they are. No judgment to anybody for being Christian. But in a time where Christian nationalism is rising and there's like this cultural desire to go back to, quote, traditional family values, I think it's important now more than ever because generally what that means is it's going to include a lot of hate and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And a lot of conversion therapy, almost certainly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So, yeah, I mean, I was surprised that there wasn't one person who was bi who was like, yeah, I guess I'm just gonna go with women and call myself straight now. It was like, no, everyone, I mean, maybe still identifying as gay. It was just, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I'd be curious to ask him if there were any bi boys who like, you know, went with it for a little bit and then like, yeah, I'm curious. I'm so curious to know what that, what that was all about. Anyway, fuck. Conversion therapy is the point.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep. And watch Aaron everywhere that he's appearing. Watch him on the Hunting wives, follow him on Instagram and as always, follow us. Rate us five stars and remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

Bye. This has been an exactly right production.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Jiha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram, USMePodcast or on TikTok USMeCultPodcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts foreign. Come on, why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Lola Blanc]

Whoa, this thing moves.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Whether you think you can or think.

[Aaron Goldenberg]

You can't, you're right. Ready, set, forward.