Arabelle Sicardi - Plastic Surgery in Mormonism, Biohacking, and the Beauty Industry

Summary

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Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Arabelle Sicardi - Plastic Surgery in Mormonism, Biohacking, and the Beauty Industry
Hosts: Lola Blanc and Meagan Elizabeth
Guest: Arabelle Sicardi (author, “The House of Beauty: Lessons from the Image Industry”)
Release Date: October 15, 2025

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Overview

This episode explores how beauty culture functions as its own “cult,” intersecting with religious belief, especially Mormonism, and spurred on by capitalism, social media, biohacking, and the wellness industry. Arabelle Sicardi, acclaimed beauty writer and recent author, joins the hosts for a deep dive into the seductive promise—and dangers—of striving for beauty, offering reflections on power, control, community, capitalist exploitation, and the thick ties between belief, image, and belonging.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Beauty as a Cult: Control, Care, and Terror

• Beauty Culture as Cult: Arabelle likens beauty culture to a cult, referencing the constant self-policing and surveillance intrinsic to both.

  “Beauty is terror... but on the same side, or a different side of the same coin, it’s also an act of care.” – Arabelle Sicardi (14:59)

• The sense of control over one’s body provides relief in an unpredictable world, but the pursuit quickly becomes all-consuming, moving the “goalpost” further and further from reach.

2. The Mormonism-Plastic Surgery Connection

• Utah as Surgery Capital: The hosts and Arabelle discuss the dramatic shift in Mormon culture—from treating the body as a sacred temple (against even ear piercing) to now having one of the highest rates of plastic surgery in the US, rivaling Miami and LA.

  “Now there's Real Housewives situations going on on Hulu where you have Mormonism kind of funneled through the lens of a Kardashian.” – Arabelle Sicardi (22:08)

• Changing Values: What was once taboo is now normalized, often used to align with new standards of grace and femininity, echoing deeper power dynamics in the church and belief that a woman’s body is a “commodity for God.” (23:27)

3. Biohacking, Anti-Aging, and Gender

• Gendered Longevity: “Biohacking” or “body hacking” appears as “life extension” for men and “anti-aging” for women—two sides of the same coin, but couched in gendered language and expectations.

  “For men, it’s marketed in terms of like... Terminator is on the mood board... For women, [it’s] fake your age to be younger... your health kind of doesn't matter in these conversations.” – Arabelle Sicardi (18:31–20:11)

• The hosts and guest reflect on how this shapes the commodification of the body, the normalization of dangerous procedures, and the endless drive for self-optimization.

4. Early Pressures, Social Media & “TikTok Brain”

• The beauty obsession is capturing younger and younger audiences—from Botox at 18 to six-year-olds being aware of retinol via TikTok.

  “She and her friends have gotten TikTok brained and are trying to use like retinol products... they’re babies.” – Host 1 (33:31)

• Sephora as the new tween hangout, predicting children’s wings and even “baby facelifts” as next on the horizon.

5. Beauty, Power, and Economic Agency

• Soft Power: Arabelle explains how beauty offered women “soft power”—one of the few accessible forms of power, financial or otherwise, in a patriarchal society.

  “Beauty has always been a kind of an exit door, a loophole, a way of having some sort of currency in a world that wants to constantly discredit women.” – Arabelle Sicardi (28:04)

• Pretty Privilege & Retirement: Beauty impacts real-life economic decisions, from budgeting for facelifts in retirement planning to staying longer in the workplace.

  “It’s a bigger conversation that has really serious repercussions that we’re beginning to see more, I think.” – Host 2 (30:44)

6. The Inner Critic as Cult Leader

• The “cult leader” is often internal—the relentless, self-critical voice, now amplified by brands and influencer culture.

  “The cult leader kind of becomes the inner critic in your head... and brands—they’re all a choir.” – Host 2 & Arabelle (41:03–41:16)

• External influences (celebs, brands, social media) converge to solidify harmful beauty standards and drive endless insecurity.

7. The Cult Tactics of Brands

• Brand Trips = Religious Retreats: Arabelle describes influencer brand trips as being eerily similar to cult retreats—selecting an elite few, isolating them, showering them with gifts and expectations.

  “They bring them to a deserted isolated space... you’re expected to post about it constantly. That kind of is just like a religious retreat.” – Arabelle Sicardi (43:00)

• Surveillance is subtle but strict; participants are carefully monitored in exchange for lavish experiences.

8. Chanel, Coco Chanel’s Nazi Ties, and Myth-Making

• Arabelle discusses the sanitized history of iconic brands (specifically Chanel), and the cognitive dissonance of loving beauty but contending with dark histories.

  “She was also a spy for the Nazis and had a code name and was a violently anti-Semitic human being... that, of course, is not in any of the biographies.” – Arabelle Sicardi (46:11)

• The lure of luxury is a cautionary tale for anyone with privilege: “Control is an aphrodisiac that you would rather harm someone than ever give up.” (47:45)

9. Exploitation in the Beauty Supply Chain

• Arabelle details her research on the hidden human costs of beauty products, from modern-day piracy on shipping routes to exploitative labor practices.

  “They are just going to stop [the ship] from going anywhere. Every hour a ship does not make it to its port, every conglomerate that has ordered space... loses money.” – Arabelle Sicardi (55:09)

• The chapter features an innovative, literary “choose your own adventure” format to humanize these costs.

10. Beauty as Community, Not Consumption

• Meaningful Beauty: The true value of beauty, Arabelle concludes, is not in consumerism, but in connection and care for others.

  “Beauty is only worth keeping if it is focused on people, not things.” – Arabelle Sicardi (57:24, also in her book)

• Compliments, skill-sharing, and genuine support (e.g., in a bar bathroom) are cited as examples where beauty culture is positive, not performative or competitive.

11. MLMs—Community and Capitalism

• The hosts reference MLMs (like Mary Kay) as prime examples of exploiting the desire for connection for profit—“Frankenstein[ing] community conversations into capitalism.” (61:26)

12. Ethical Beauty: Navigating Red Flags

• Arabelle advises consumers to educate themselves: check who owns brands, their stated values, their packaging and supply chains.

  “I don’t want to give my money to someone that actively doesn't want me to have rights.” – Arabelle Sicardi (63:39)

• Discourages black-and-white thinking (e.g., “natural = good, synthetic = bad”), which is often marketed, not scientifically valid (64:08).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Danger and Promise of Beauty:
  “It can be a playground or it can be a prison. And sometimes it’s both at the same time.” – Arabelle Sicardi (20:41)

• On the Cultic Nature of Beauty Culture:
  “The overarching vibe... is that beauty is a cult and there’s just little sects within it... constant self-policing and surveillance... It’s the same policing people in cults experience.” – Arabelle Sicardi (36:13)

• On Growing Up Beautiful but Never Feeling Beautiful:
  “Some of the hottest women I know are the ones that are the most anxious about how they look all the time...” – Host 1 (16:13)

• On Brand Trips:
  “Your appearance and activities are highly monitored... It is very much, we’re taking you, we’re isolating you, we have demands.” – Arabelle Sicardi (44:06)

• On the Need for Connection Over Comparison:
  “There’s no one who will ride for you harder than a Girl in a Bar Bathroom.” – Arabelle Sicardi (57:59)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 10:55 | Arabelle introduces herself and her career | | 14:46 | Discussion of beauty industry’s predatory tactics | | 18:00 | Gender differences in biohacking & beauty marketing | | 21:31 | Mormonism, plastic surgery, Utah’s transformation | | 28:04 | Beauty as “soft power” and economic leverage for women | | 33:31 | The TikTok-ification of child beauty culture | | 38:07 | Internalized “cult leader”/inner critic discussion | | 43:00 | On brand trips as cultic experiences | | 46:11 | Chanel’s dark origins and how beauty myths are built | | 55:09 | Shocking truths about beauty supply chains & pirates | | 57:24 | The truest value of beauty: connection, not consumption | | 61:26 | MLMs and the commodification of community | | 63:39 | Choosing ethical beauty products |

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• The drive for beauty, tied as it is to cultish group dynamics, capitalist exploitation, and personal insecurity, can be both damaging and nourishing.
• The more we reframe beauty as an opportunity for genuine connection, care, and creative expression (rather than competition or conformity), the less susceptible we are to its darker manipulations.
• Awareness, reflection, and building supportive, non-competitive communities are crucial for those navigating both the beauty industry and cult-like group dynamics in all areas of life.

“At the end of the day, wanting to believe in something bigger than yourself is one of the most human instincts there is.” – Show Description

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For more from Arabelle Sicardi:

• Find “The House of Beauty” at major and independent booksellers
• Follow on Instagram: @arabellesicardi
• Substack: arabellesacardi.substack.com

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Transcript

[Arabelle Sicardi]

This is exactly right.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Crazy weather we're having.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, Taxes and fees extra. Seamanmobile.com what kind of man would let this happen to his family? Inspired by shocking actual events I'm working on, the story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's only cheating if you get caught.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in episodes Wednesdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers terms apply.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. JBL Tour Pro 3 earbuds are for those who don't conform to the standard. Yeah, I mean if you want to get into some touchscreen technology, how about the smart charging case Clear sound. These are not standard things. You're only going to get them with the JBL Tour Pro 3, baby. And I love the sound of JBL when it goes. These earbuds are packed with innovation because you can' stand out by following others. Touchscreen Smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, true adaptive noise canceling and the one of a kind audio transmitter which can plug and play with everything from game consoles to in flight entertainment. What more could you want? First doesn't follow. Grab a [e-mail] Trust me.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Do you trust me? Would I ever lead you astray?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Trust me. This is the truth. The only truth.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two beauty junkies who've actually experienced it.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I am Lola Blanc. And I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Today our guest is Arabel Sicardi, author of the House of Lessons from the Image Industry. We're gonna discuss the ways that obsessing about beauty and stopping aging becomes a way of feeling in control of our lives when they feel out of control. The connection between Mormonism and plastic surgery and why Utah has some of the highest rates in the country and and how beauty and power go hand in hand.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yes, we will. We'll get into Coco Chanel's Nazi ties, how some of the scammier sides of beauty and the wellness industry can overlap, and why the healthiest way to engage with beauty is to prioritize connection with other people. Except when it comes to MLMs. Indeed.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Um, before we get into it, do you have a cultiest thing of this week that you've experienced?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Oh, you bet.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Your boots I do. My boot?

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Your boots.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Okay, so we're. We're recording this a couple weeks in advance, so perhaps when you're listening to this, there will be new breaks in the story.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Right.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

But good disclaimer for today. What we know is that basically Tampa, Florida, mega mansion, they just discovered 60 people living inside of it.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And this is the same one we've talked about before, or. No, this is a new one.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

This is a new one. So it's called the Kingdom of God Global Church. It's still operating, actually. Even though the two leaders of it have been taken to jail. They're still operating their 24 hour prayer line.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Whoa.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Like a phone? Like a headline?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've pulled in like $50 million. People working for free, people collapsing, water being poured on them to wake them up. Which is actually something that did happen to me once.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

What?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah. In what? Just like a wake up Water being poured on me.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

There's like in your sorority or.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

No, in the two by two. Oh, shit. And in the context of a convention. It's a long story.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Okay.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

But anyway.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Okay, so what's the. This is obviously some kind of like, church, like some religious cult.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yes, it's a church. It's a religious cult. They've been using people, like, to work 24 hours a day to raise money that these people have been using to buy luxury cars, jet skis, a like $250,000 SUV. I don't even know what the purpose is. And this the most interesting part to me that no one keeps expanding upon. They just kind of drop it in there like it's no big deal. Is that there's human sized statues in cages.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

What?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. Are there photos? Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Whoa. I'm looking on Google images right now.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And this mansion's crazy. Okay, so the mansion's so big and I'm like 60 people. It feels like that mansion could handle that.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

It does seem like it's a. This is a very large property that I'm looking at.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, I feel like they're just sticking the victims in, like the Garage closed area. Oh my God.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

So wait, have people been injured? Like how did it come out? Do you know?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

The FBI raided it. I don't know if they got a tip. I don't know what exactly happened. But I'm very interested to see how the story plays out. And I'm very interested to see where this would have gone had it not stopped. The human sized statues and cages.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

What the fuck?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

I mean that feels like something's cooking. Yeah, yeah. At least it's psychological torture of some kind. Or like you know, trying to be menacing. Like there's some. That's very ominous. Um, well, I am looking forward to learning more.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yes. What about you? What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

I was going through our trust me email and phone hotline this week, which I. We have not done in, I was.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Gonna say damn months.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

We're back on top of it, y'. All. So if you wanna share your story, please send us an email, give us a call. But I've found like a very like an older email from someone pitching a guest and it was super interesting to me because this is a man who was a member of a woman led cult. And maybe I won't say what it is, cause I don't know if I'll. I wanna identify this person. But there's a woman led culture that he had been speaking out about his experiences with. And I was like, oh, this sounds like a really interesting guess. Like I love when men are willing to share their stories cause it's much harder to get them to. But then I went to his Instagram page and his Instagram page is all like why I'm not a feminist anymore. Why you should be strong in your masculinity. Very like Andrew Tatey kind of shit.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Like a whiplash back from the culture.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yes, it's like what a fascinating. I mean like from the outside, obviously I don't know this person, but from the outside it very much looks like had a negative experience with one woman who abused her power and extrapolated upon that to then react and go the complete opposite direction and be like, actually women should have no power.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Which is just like.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

So it's just so interesting. We, this is just. I mean that is what we do as humans, you know, Like I reacted to my religious upbringing in which I believed really, really hard by believing in absolutely nothing. And sometimes I'm a little rigid in that people who come out of polygamy sometimes become so vehemently anti polygamy that they then are actually like against the victims of it because they're still in it. You know, like we, we have such strong responses after we leave something. And I guess that's just like one of the things that happens. But it's so interesting to me how rare it is that we balance out.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And we're like, yeah, I guess that's why therapy is such a necessary part of the process. So that somebody can like hold space for radicalness maybe and then reflect it back to us and be like, when we're ready to hear it, kind of be like. So here's what I'm seeing because yeah, it's, it's, it's impossible to not repel from trauma.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And we overcorrect. Like, that's just, I feel like that's just such a human thing. We overcorrect. But damn, I don't want to like, I don't want to like just flip flop and swing from one extreme to.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

The other, you know, and it's easier to do. So. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a really interesting one.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

So we're looking for balance. We're looking for moderation and self reflection.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And we're looking for beauty.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And we're looking to be the most beautiful people alive.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Shall we talk to Arabel?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Let's do it.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

What kind of man would let this happen to his family? Inspired by shocking actual events, I'm working on the story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's only cheating if you get caught.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in the Family New episodes Wednesdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. JBL Tour Pro3 earbuds are for those who don't conform to the standard. Yeah, I mean if you want to some touchscreen technology, how about the smart charging case? Clear sound. These are not standard things. You're only gonna get them with the JBL Tour Pro 3, baby. And I love the sound of JBL when it goes. These earbuds are packed with innovation because you can't stand out by following others. Touchscreen smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, true adaptive noise canceling. And the one of a kind audio transmitter which can plug and play with everything from game consoles to in flight entertainment. The audio transmitter also allow for JBL Spatial 360 sound that takes any audio and turns it into a 360 immersive experience. What more could you want? First doesn't follow. Grab a [e-mail] Mint is still $15.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

A month for premium wireless.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Four, I use it.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

Five, my mom uses it.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Are you, are you playing me off?

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

That's what's happening, right?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Okay, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

$15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com welcome Arabelle Sicardi to Trust me.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Thanks for being here. Your book is so beautiful. It's written so well. Nonfiction can of course be written very beautifully, but you don't always expect there to be this like poeticism. And I really appreciated that about it. So great job.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Thank you.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

So can you tell us a little bit about your really impressive background and what brought you to the subject of beauty?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

So it all started because I was online way too much.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

So I been a writer working in the beauty space pretty much since my brain started forming. Like, I started writing for magazines when I was like 14 or 15. So I have many years in the industry at this point. And I split my time between New York and LA and going other places for reporting on the beauty industry. Sometimes I write about fashion and wellness, hospitality, but my bread and butter is the beauty industry, specifically around the connections between beauty and politics. So I do reporting around that. I also run a nonprofit called the Museum of Nails foundation, which is basically a digital first archive that documents nail art, nail culture, and tries to give beauty workers in the nail industry their flowers because beauty workers are often uncredited and underappreciated.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Amazing. This is totally an aside, but were you and Tavi Gevinson compared a lot? Was that, was that a thing?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I don't know. Compared. We grew up together. Like, we were really, really close friends when we were both teens. Oh, you were? Yeah. Like, I was part of the rookie OG staff.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

So you were a teen? Were you a teen rookie? Wow.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Is it Kat Marnell? Is that in this world or.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

No, Kat came a couple years later in like a little different wave Internet.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Okay.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. Yeah. So exo vain came, I guess after rookie or maybe at the same time, but kind of different social Bubbles.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Well, you have a really cool perspective on culture, beauty cults, actually, as we discovered while reading this book. And one of the things that I found very amusing about your book was that you got super into beauty because of the fifth element.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

When she has the Chanel moment and we can get into Chanel later and the problems that surround her. But yeah, I was also extremely into beauty as a child to a degree that was very odd because we were both raised in cult. So I wasn't allowed to have makeup, I couldn't cut my hair, had to be in buns. But somehow I convinced my parents to get me like a magnified mirror in seventh grade and.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Oh no.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, and it was like a 10 time magnified mirror and I would just like. And I'm older than you. So this was like way before kids my age were even doing this. But I was like really thinking about anti aging in like fourth grade and it's just really odd. So I, I really related to a lot of your book and, and the way it just kind of creeps in there.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. I think we were all obsessed with not wanting to die as children in some form or another, right?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yes.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I mean, I think, you know, like those hotel magnifying mirrors that you can pull in and out. Of course, sometimes. Oh, hate. I feel like they should be like criminal. I know. I don't think that they should exist. No, they just cause everyone to want to like hate themselves or book a hotel spa treatment because they're like, no one should be looking at their pores that deeply. Oh my God, no.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Absolutely not. So what are some of the. Obviously the fears that beauty preys upon. You just mentioned one, which is the fear of death. Can we talk about how this industry can kind of take advantage of some of our deepest anxieties?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, of course. I mean my, one of my taglines or aphorisms, I would say is like, beauty is terror, but on the same side. Or like a different side of the same coin. It's also an act of care and for a really long time. And kind of the guiding motive behind the book was that I wanted to trace the connection between terror, like the political form of terror, but also just the feeling women feel and people feel, navigating the world in our bodies, always being judged. And see how it plays into all the different industries around us. Not just the beauty industry, but how it's connected to every other industry there is. Because all of our products are made of many different things and they are all connected in some form or another.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, I mean, corporations and companies in general that are marketing anything to us by design kind of have to make us feel inadequate or like there's something, there's something missing from our lives and something that we need. And obviously, obviously the beauty industry, it just makes it centered around ourselves and what is missing or wrong with us.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And that moving goalpost that never, you never reach utopia. It always, there's always.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

You always be hotter.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

You can always be hotter.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Some of the hottest women I know are the ones that are the most anxious about how they look all the time and being hotter. I'm like, you're literally. I would like die, to be honest.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's a disease. It's a disease. But I love in the book how you kind of go at it from both sides where it is like something very dangerous and corruptible. But it's also such a beautiful way of connecting with people. And we can get to that more later. You have a really perfect quote about it. I also like how you, you call it like body hacking. Can you tell us a bit more about what the term body hacking means?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

So body hacking, at least in the framework of the book, it really refers to this impulse to. Let's call it like body optimization for the, the boys and the boyfriends of beauty girls. It's basically doing a bunch of different things either to your body or different like wellness things might be surgical, it might not be where you are trying to either like live longer or like be a little healthier, be younger. You know, all this anti aging stuff that we do or we're seeing pop up in different clinics or the adaptogens or like the really fancy scientific sounding skincare products. GLP1 all of these things they have to do with this impulse to try to delay death in some form or another. Because the idea of being healthy has so much to do with just like staying chromosomally like younger. Because when you're younger you have less chronic illnesses. So much of the transhumanist movement pretty much is just about trying to stay alive and as young as scientifically possible. Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I mean, honestly, Priscilla Presley to me looks like she could run a marathon. Yeah, like, and it's just like an illusion. I'm like, she's, she's young. You know, it works on me. I'm like, you're young?

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah. Well, it's interesting talking about biohacking versus beauty. I mean it almost seems like for men it's sort of outwardly named as life extension and like this idea of health or something. Whereas for women or femme people, it's more like the appearance of youth.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

No, I totally agree with you. It's definitely like gendered. It's like, it's like gender washed somehow, these conversations. And you can actually see this in like how different wellness spaces are marketed, at least in New York City. I'm thinking a lot about this because I'm just going to a bunch of them for the bit because I love doing that for research and seeing how people are treating themselves in their body in different ways. Because wellness is a cult. Beauty is a cult in itself. So I want to see all the little cults and how they're hanging out and what they're doing and chatting about. So for men, I feel like it's really marketed in terms of like almost like Terminator is on the mood board. Oh my God. You know what I mean?

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yes, yes.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

It's so like we're in Tron. We're going to do an AI robot massage. We're going to get our like body scanned so we see every single thing that could possibly be wrong with us.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Optimize. Optimize.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, we're going to do like IV infusions. We're going to do all these things that make us feel like we're in a spaceship.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

It's about strength. It's about like being stronger, longer or something. Maybe.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yes, 100%. There's this phrase in the book. I think it's called like longevity velocity or something at this point, I don't remember exactly, but it has to do with like just trying. There's like a barometer that scientists and people that are doing all of this body hacking stuff, they are obsessed with statistically trying to make sure that you live a little longer. And all of this stuff is just for that effort. Whereas all of this stuff that's thrown at women for anti aging is really just about like fake your age to be younger. Remove and erase parts of yourself so you give an idea of being younger than you are. Your health kind of doesn't matter in these conversations.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Right?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

At all.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It doesn't even matter if it's a dangerous surgery.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Like, no.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

BBls are so dangerous. And people are like, gotta get that fat ass, babe. Like it just.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Look, I've been tempted. I've been tempted. I can't say I haven't been tempted.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I mean, I have fake boobs. Like it's a whole. I was telling Lola getting my fake boobs was the happiest experience of my life. So it's just a complicated subject because I Also am like, people shouldn't have to change. And then I'm like, but I want to.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. It can be a playground or it can be a prison. And sometimes it's both at the same time.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Thank you. There it is. That's why you're the expert. And that is exactly what's happening. Yes, exactly.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Well, speaking of prison, the prison of beauty, I mean, so you did talk about on another podcast, which is, I think, how we came across you in the first place, the connection between Mormonism and plastic surgery. And as someone who was raised Mormon, this was very surprising to me. And I don't know how deep any of y' all have gotten into this, but, like, when I was growing up, you could not get your ears pierced, you could not get tattoos. Nobody got plastic surgery because your body is a temple. And like, if somebody did, they really would try to hide it. It was not something that was normal or acceptable. And I started asking around about how that's changed. But can you tell us some of a little bit about that?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Because it's changed a lot.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

It's changed a lot.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

It has. I mean, when I was just lightly doing the research about Mormonism and plastic surgery and self care and body stuff, I was really surprised that people are spending a lot, a lot of money to do that. And it's. It's so kind of related to the power dynamics of being in the church and how much money people are spending to kind of align themselves with a very new kind of off topic version of grace and values that seem antithetical, as you said, to, like what it might have been before. I mean, now there's Real Housewives situations going on on Hulu where you have Mormonism kind of funneled through the lens of a Kardashian. Right, right. And I'm sure for a lot of people, that doesn't feel like the religion that they might have grown up in.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah. And I was asking some. Some friends and family members.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Cause I was like, is this.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Are you guys noticing this is happening in your communities? And it seems like it's definitely more prevalent in Utah specifically than to Mormon culture outside of Utah. Seems to be the consensus. But my Salt Lake friends were like, oh, yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Utah in general has the most plastic surgeons besides Miami and Los Angeles. Is that correct?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. Yeah. Like outside of Brazil, it's like one of the capitals of plastic surgery in the world.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

It's fascinating that the religion of don't drink coffee or tea because that will. Because your body's a temple. Is now like, but boob jobs are great and in fact, do everything you can to be beautiful for God.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

But of course, obviously there's a patriarchal element. You know, like, your kind of role as a woman in Mormonism is to be presentable to your husband or your future husband to bear children. Like, have you gained any insight into some of the thinking that goes on there?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I think what I've observed from across different religions that are also. They have, like, a patriarchal lens through which they view women is that you're kind of a commodity for God and it is in your best interest and in God's best interest or higher power's best interest if you do this, that, and the other thing. And if you don't, you don't love the higher power quite enough. You haven't sacrificed yourself enough to transform, to be closer to the vision. Wow.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Okay. It's a ritual.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

But who determines what is? Like, I'm just.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

The dudes.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

The dudes.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I was gonna say the men in each community. The men in each community are like, this is what God likes.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

But it's so fascinating because, like, if you look at the flds, like, that's the up. Like, yeah. No makeup.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

But I remember one of the women saying, and I don't remember where, but, like, thinness was very stressed for in her family.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Wait, in which family?

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

In her FLDS family.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Oh, I mean, that might be true.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

But it's not everywhere.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I mean, one of the things I think we can all kind of clock is that just because testimony or, like, the actual primary source material say one thing, it doesn't mean that any specific, like, church or organization is exactly following the rich and guidance, of course.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

What kind of man would let this.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Happen to his family? Inspired by shocking actual events, I'm working on a story about the Murdaughs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's only cheating if you get caught.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in the Family New episodes Wednesdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang From Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, JBL Tour Pro 3 earbuds are for those who don't conform to the standard. Yeah, I mean, if you want to get into some touchscreen technology, how about the smart chargin clear sound? These are not standard things. You're only going to get them with the JBL Tour Pro 3 baby. And I love the sound of JBL and goes. These earbuds are packed with innovation because you can't stand out by following others. Touchscreen smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, true adaptive noise canceling and the one of a kind audio transmitter which can plug and play with everything from game consoles to in flight entertainment. The audio transmitter also allows for JBL Spatial360 sound that takes any audio and turns it into a 360 immersive experience. What more could you want first doesn't follow. Grab a [e-mail] hi, I'm Cindy Crawford.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

And I'm the founder of meaningful beauty.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

When Dr. Sabah and I decided to.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Do a skincare line together, he said.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

To me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

And I said, that's exactly right.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

We want to give women meaningful beauty.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a, a reason to exist. It's efficacious, you're going to get results.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty confidence is beautiful.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

The other day I just saw that like some church had created an AI voice of Charlie Kirk around. Yeah. And they were having group hallucinations about Charlie Kirk giving some sermon for the church and it was just an AI voice, you know. So I'm like, we lost the plot quite. Quite aggressively.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Quite aggressively. We have lost the plot.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Well, I mean, yeah, Christianity in America has taken a gone way far from the Bible in many cases evangelical Christianity.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I like the history you explored in this book of how far back beauty and power and politics have intersected and just, you know, beauty attracts power, it attracts political power. And so it is, it might be painted as something silly, but actually it is kind of an end to a sort of power that women aren't really granted otherwise. So I don't know if there's a question in that, but I would love for you to expand upon that a bit. Sure.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I tend to qualify beauty as a form of like soft power. And soft power is technically a term in like political theory and strategy about like, it's, it's the things that you might do or the conversations that you might have and these ways of finessing a situation in order to impact real change. Right. You don't need to be physically violent or threatening to get something done. And oftentimes women are not afforded actual weapons or other tools or financial means in order to get things done. But that doesn't mean that they aren't the most important person in the room, Right. There's, like that quote, like, behind every powerful man is a woman, you know, and beauty has always been a kind of an exit door, a loophole, a way of having some sort of currency in a world that wants to constantly discredit women. And that's not just true in beauty. It's. It's really true in how money and aesthetics are intertwined overall. I mean, the art world specifically, it's all about aesthetics and beauty. Right. But it's also a commodity in which really wealthy people move their money around on a global scale, and it's often a front for more serious conversations and bargains. And that has so much to do with beauty, politics, currency, and soft power. In these conversations, it's like, oh, it's a beautiful thing, but I also want this person to do something for me, so I'm gonna buy their stuff or this, that, and the other thing. But in terms of just the beauty industry and power and currency, the beauty industry, financially, is one of the most significant industries in the world. And it's connected to other industries that we use every single day. Right? It's connected to shipping. It's connected to, like, boxing and shipping supplies and materials. It's connected to retail spaces. It's. It's an industry where you can work as a service worker, you can work retail. You might be a makeup artist, you might be a model. There's so many different careers within the industry, and for a lot of women for generations, working in the beauty industry was the only way that they could actually make money. Right. Financially, women weren't even allowed to have credit cards in their own bank accounts until, like, you know, the mid-1900s, like the 50s or so. I might be wrong about that, but it was. It's within.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

It's within the living memory. Yeah, right. Within living memory. And so beauty has often been one of the only ways that women could actually find financial agency and a sort of actual material power in their lives.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And even in sex work before that.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, yeah. The oldest industry in the world has to do with beauty and desire. Yeah, right. Yeah, right.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I think that you were talking about this on the podcast that we listened to, but, you know, I've even started to think this way, I'm ashamed to admit, but, like, I need to budget my life differently because I'm gonna need a facelift. And then once you start getting that work done, your retirement might go back a couple years, and then you also look younger, so maybe you can stay in spaces for longer and keep working. And it's. It's like a bigger conversation that has really serious repercussions that we're beginning to see more, I think.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, I think it's a really pragmatic way of looking at the realities of capitalism, honestly. Like, yes, it's depressing, but it's also just realistic about how beauty and ageism and how men treat women that are older, that all factors into pretty privilege and, you know, career opportunities at any age. So, yeah, I get why you're thinking that way. It's. The industry is kind of meant for you, has shaped itself for you to do that.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

I mean, and it makes me think about cultures outside of Utah. In Utah, it seems like it kind of, like, started and then everyone else was doing it. And then everyone was like, well, if they're doing it, I have to do it because I have to keep up. Are facelifts on the rise overall and. Or happening younger? Do we know?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I think they are happening younger. The type of facelifts that are popular now are different than they were maybe five or 10 years ago. The trends and the micro trends of what kind of things you're getting, that has changed. And more and more people are getting things younger, but they might not be as permanent because you can get facial threads, right? Which is not, you know, it's like a different form of alteration, and it's not a traditional facelift the way that we've eventually thought about it. And I've been in group chats with, you know, Gen Z girlies that are financially, like, have the means to do whatever they want. And I remember they asked me for facial threading places, and I thought they meant, like, hair, like your eyebrows. Right. Because, like, understandably, that's more affordable for most people because, like, that might cost, like, $20. And there's a lot of those today. I was like, oh, well, I go, here, here, here. And they're like, no, we want facial threads.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Wow.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

And I was like, you're 22.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Your face is as high as it's ever gonna be.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I started getting Botox when I was 18.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

18. And, like.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And I don't really anymore because I can't. It's very expensive. But, yeah, I had access to somebody who was, like, willing to do some experimenting. And I was like, hand up. Every wrinkle in my forehead gone. And I was like, in high school.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Okay, I hear that. And I raise you. My friend has a daughter who is, I believe, six.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Oh, God.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And she and her friends have gotten TikTok brained and are trying to use like retinol products. I'm like, you don't understand. Oh, no, you're a baby. Like, they're not obviously letting them, but like they're seeing these in their feed and thinking that they need to do that and they're babies.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Oh, no.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

It's so crazy.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

It's quite depressing. And I'm really just genuinely waiting for Sephora specifically to roll out a children's wing.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, they will, they will within the next five to 10 years because it's unbearable to go there now as an adult because it's just all kids. I'm waiting for them. I'm waiting for them to roll out the baby. Facelift. That's what I want to see.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Just in a bottle, just like.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yep.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I want to see a baby with like that surgery.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Oh, no.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

A baby with a face, a cheekbone.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

That's probably coming up on the new children's programming, you know.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I mean. Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Our perception of what is normal and what is human is just becoming skewed. And I imagine that's only gonna keep happening and keep getting more and more uncanny over time. Speak. Speaking as someone who has Botox and filler and I've done peels.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Oh, yeah. You love the peels.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Well, yeah, peels are great.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Love that lizard skin shed.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

That's.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, there's so. I mean, she can handle more than me. I put one on and was like.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Get it off of me.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

But it's just, it's an endless cycle that can really take all of your money and all of your brain power and completely hijack your thoughts and your agency as a human being on this planet who should be maybe thinking about other things. That's been my experience.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

100%.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, I, I see, I see it happening among people I know and sometimes in myself as well, where like, we feel really out of control in this hellscape world that we're living in and country. And so the easiest thing to turn to, to feel a sense of control again, is our own bodies. And we've talked about that in terms of eating disorders and the connections that eating disorders often have to cults. But I think it also very much rears its head in the form of like, do I get the surgery? Do I get the surgery? How much filler do I need? How much dissolver do I need? Did I do too much? You know, just this like obsessive sort of mind consuming thing. I mean, we're really sucking at having actual questions Today. But if you have anything to say on that.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, I'm like, do you mind just framing your book into a list of questions for us that relate to cults? Because we read it, we loved it, but we can't talk today.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

No, it's totally fine. Cause like the overarching vibe that you understand about it is that beauty is a cult and there's just little sex within it. Right. And the idea of the constant self correction and the self, the constant self policing is something that anyone in the beauty industry where like considers themselves a beauty, girly experiences. And it's the same policing and surveillance that people in cults experience on a day to day basis. You just fill in the blanks a little differently. Right. That's ultimately what it is. And I think in order to be able to find a sense of peace and love within yourself and be able to like pause on doing things or going into debt, you really have to find a sense of self removed from other people's desires or expectations or like the idea of a higher power and what they might want out of you. It's really just like looking yourself in the mirror and being like, is this enough for me today? And if you can't reach that, you are doomed. Right. And it's not a, it's not a constant state of being. Like on one day I might be like, I am the hottest bitch alive. Correct. And another day I might be like, if I don't get a facial with extractions and my eyebrows done and maybe a two hour massage, I'm going to lose my mind. And both of those versions of me are true. And they're the same person. It's just the target. And my balance between these two planes is always changing. And I think when it comes to the cult of beauty, a lot of people get lost at sea because they can't find a sense of gravity within themselves that doesn't ask for someone else to love them unconditionally. It has so much to do with like, is it enough for me to be myself today? And what does that mean if I don't have the answer or the answer scares me? That is a scary place to be.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah. I mean, irrelevance is terrifying. And I think we live in a society that really teaches us that that's what will happen if we are not perceived in a way that conveys beauty.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And it is something that does happen often.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, no, it does.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

I mean, many people will talk about how they became invisible once they got a little older and it started to show or if they gained weight beyond what was considered societally desirable. It's such a tough thing because, like, we don't want to rely on external validation, of course, because we need like a centered self, but also like we do need humans and connection and like to feel, you know, confident and like it's such a tough balance to strike sometimes.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

No, I totally agree. And I think so much of finding the balance is finding people that aren't in competition with you and that aren't perhaps drowning in quite the same way like people that are actually physically drowning. When you try to rescue them, oftentimes they'll drown you too.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Right.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

And I think that if you surround yourself with people that are deeply insecure to the point where they're wondering why you aren't insecure as well, it becomes infectious.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, I've experienced that.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. Yeah. So for me, what's at least helped me, like navigating being so deep in the beauty and fashion spaces for all of my life and in this book is finding people that are not within it to be my closest confidants and my friends because they can pull me out of the absurdity of the, of my daily life. Because I mean, I know I have a very lucky and random specific life. And things in the beauty and fashion spaces that feel normal or are daily occurrence to me are often once in a lifetime experiences for other people. And when I can surround myself with people that are removed from these spaces, I can understand how rare and absurd it can be. And I don't have to take. Doesn't become a competition, it doesn't become a fomo. If I miss a party or whatever, it's like, oh yeah, my life is bizarre. I should touch grass and understand that this is not all there is in life.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Which gonna draw the connection to cults as well. Because so many stories of people sort of emerging from indoctrination have to do with getting a little bit of time outside of the group or a little bit time talking to someone else and get just like getting a little bit of breathing room and outside perspective that starts to wake them up. And I can imagine being surrounded by beauty professionals all the time that would start to feel like that for sure.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Oh, totally. I mean, yeah, 100%.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Well, what I'm, I'm hearing is that, you know, the cult leader kind of becomes the inner critic in your head and you're nodding for the listeners who might not see you. So I think you agree.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yes.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And then kind of influencers and celebrities become the cult leader above that and then.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

And brands, Brands, they're all a choir. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

They're a choir, a beautiful choir. But really the most dangerous one is that kind of inner cult leader that becomes internalized from the absurd things we're seeing in the world right now.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Totally. I think all of the aura of influencer culture online and all of the money spent by brands to stay relevant and get new problems for them to fix for us and the relationship between them, like the politics and the vibes outside of the industry, they all kind of converge to become every single bad thing you've ever thought about yourself sometimes. Right in your head. Yeah. And a lot of us can never escape it because we're all addicted to our phones. Right. What are you talking about? Is crazy.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

I don't have seven hours a day online right now.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Exactly. I'm like, I don't need to know. Don't tell me. I know how bad it is.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

It's getting so much worse too.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah. And like the filters, like little kids just wanting to look like filters that are on their phone. Like recipe for disaster.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I know. Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Like in, in all of your work researching and writing and, and working in this space, like, have you noticed anything particularly cult like about how brands operate? Is there what's going on at the like, company level?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I don't know if I can talk about the inner workings of the corporations because one, they're extremely litigious and two, they don't let me know most things. Right. I'm talking about them. But I would say that the way that they conduct brand trips. Let's talk about that instead. So brand trips, at least for fashion and beauty brands, they spend a lot of money per trip and they choose their favorite influencers. They usually have more than a quarter million followers to get on a trip, usually a million plus. They choose their chosen few. They bring them to a deserted isolated space, usually first class or sometimes private jet style, and then they give them a couple days surrounded by products and anything they could ever want in a villa and they're expected to post about it constantly. That kind of is just like a religious retreat. I'm sorry. It's basically sometimes, oftentimes they actually go to spiritual or wellness retreat spaces and they just sprinkle their products around. I've been on a couple of these fancy brand trips before and they're really fun, but they're also extremely insular. And there's certain expectations that come with agreeing to go on one. And your appearance and activities are highly monitored and surveyed the entire time you're on this, on these trips, like, if.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

You'Re not posting enough, like, is that.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Oh, wow.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah. And they may not confront you directly, but you'll get an email, like from someone, like two steps of people between you. So everyone will have understood that this is happening, but they will never say it to your face. But yeah, it's a very regimented, high expectation situation. And I mean, in some ways, like, I get it because they may have spent $40,000 a person to get you there. So they expect at least that much in terms of their social numbers from you specifically. But it is very much, we're taking you, we're isolating you, we have demands.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Wow. I mean, I would do it a hundred percent.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And just.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, they've been fun.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Like myth building around a brand, you know, and that's always fascinating to me because it's so similar to what cults do and.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Oh yeah, it's.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's just the parallels.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah. Speaking of that, I mean, can you talk a little bit about your essay on the Chanel brand and the history there and how much that's been sort of cleaned up over time?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Of course. They actually just did a brand trip to celebrate Chanel no. 5 and a bunch of influencers and editors went to grass to celebrate that, which I find beautifully timed to my book. Literally, I saw on Instagram like 3 days ago a bunch of people that I, that I know, acquaintances wise, they're all there. And I'm like, what a small world. But basically, the origin story of the House of Beauty was really. It came out of my obsession with Chanel no. 5 and the history of Coco Chanel and the elephant in the room of every biography about her, that, yes, she was an incredible fashion designer that changed how women dressed, but she was also a spy for the Nazis and had a code name and was a violently anti Semitic human being. And that's all documented by people that worked in fashion and were familiar with her. And she spent a lot of her personal money funding anti Semitic propaganda papers and going out of her way to make the lives of a lot of Jewish people and people more vulnerable than her harder to live during World War II. That, of course, is not in any of the biographies. Right. But it's also so important to the story of how Chanel no. 5 still exists today, because the people that funded her perfume brand were and still are a Jewish family. And During World War II, she actively tried to have the company Aryanized and returned to her while they had fled Europe because they were afraid of being put into concentration camps. Oh, my gosh. It's a very important part of the brand history to kind of sweep under the rug. The brand owes itself to its history and the people that kind of went out of their way to make sure the brand existed in spite of her antisemitism.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I like how nuanced you made it in the book, where you were kind of saying, like, you know, you wanted to just hate her and judge her, but you kind of understood. Like, you. Was it the Ritz she was staying at?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, she was a Ritz girly.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

A Ritz girly. And you went there and saw the majesty. I was wondering if you could just say a bit about that.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Of course. So let me set the scene. I flew to Paris fresh off of the first election for the current man. And in the airports, there were still protests happening. The taxis were on strike in JFK when I was flying into Paris. So it was very much feeling the end of the world was specifically happening that day. And I was staying on the couch of one of my friends who's a fashion editor in Japan now, but she has a place in Paris. And we ended up having dinner at the Ritz with some global supermodel, the head of some model agency, some other people, important fashion people that probably have no idea who I am. And I was walking through the hallways overhearing all of these conversations with people staying at the Ritz, talking about politics, but in a way that's like, let them eat cake almost. Meanwhile, I was texting friends, being like, do you have your lawyer's number written in Sharpie on your hand? Do you have bail money? Right. How's your green card status going? Do you know the best way to wash out your eyes from riot spray? Like, these are the conversations I was having on my phone while I was overhearing conversations with people that couldn't necessarily afford to stay at the Ritz at any point in time. And I think what is so alluring about being in these spaces for a lot of people is, like, the ease of luxury that luxury likes to give. It's a frictionless experience. Experience you don't actually ever have to think about harm if you can afford to stay in them because you're protected from it. There's bodyguards, there's security. There's sometimes no windows to the outside space. And it's all about you, how to serve you. It is a dreamland for a narcissist with power. And that is ultimately what people with a lot of privilege and money are sometimes. But and being in there, I understood how easy it is to want to stay. Because fundamentally, a very beautiful place, incredible atmosphere. They are there specifically to serve you. And when you are terrified of losing control and you have a lot of power and prestige, control is an aphrodisiac that you would rather harm someone than to ever give up. And understanding that makes me understand a lot about her, even if knowing that I can understand her makes me like myself a little less. Because of course, I wanted to go there, be disgusted by everything and. And be like, ugh, what a heartless woman. Like, yeah, she. She might be heartless even when she clearly loved people, like, the people in her life, but she wasn't deranged. She knew what she was doing. I just don't agree with what she did, and I don't agree with a lot of people. That doesn't make them crazy. It just means that we have different moral compasses.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, I mean, I completely relate to this, like, friction of feeling connected to ideas about capitalism being harmful and wanting to, you know, make the world better. And, like, a lot of that has to do with. With confronting, you know, excessive wealth. And then at the same time, like, I love a beautiful house. You know, like, I just am dying to live in a beautiful house. You know, that's like. And when I'm somewhere that. Where it's, like, everything's nice and luxurious, like, of course, it's, like, so tempting when you are in spaces like that where you feel protected from the, like, stresses of understanding reality and understanding some of these systems and the things that go on. It's much more pleasant of an experience. It's very tempting to want to stay there.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's almost impossible not to. And that's what we have to fight against because we are, at the end of the day, just animals. And, yeah, it's a constant battle to be like, I'm going outside of my comfort zone. I'm going outside of my privilege. I'm going outside of whatever because it's the right fucking thing to do, even though it's not comfortable.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And I'm gonna just mention some studies I haven't looked at a long time, so I couldn't tell you what they are anymore.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I love an old study statistic, but.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Like, I've talked a little bit about how, like, there are studies that show that, like, wealth can decrease empathy for your fellow man. But then there are also. There's also research that shows that, like, that can be mitigated by exposure to other people's circumstances. Like, it isn't this, like, you are automatically evil if you are in these spaces or if you have wealth, but it makes it more likely that you'll be less connected. And so the work is like, I guess, reconnecting or helping people reconnect. If you are too far down that road. Does that make sense?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

It does. And it's also, you know, we can see this in how billionaires spend their money. Like Mackenzie Ex, you know, she's doing so much work, giving away all of the money that from her divorce, and she's still richer than she was before. And when you look at how she's spending her money as a billionaire versus anyone else, you're like, it's so wild that world hunger could be solved. There is a number on it. And the UN actually, like, gave that number to Elon Musk at one point when he was like, yes, I can. I can spend the money on it. Give me the number. They gave him the number, and he didn't solve it. Right. He was like, I would actually like to keep these billions. Thank you. Right. And getting clean water to Flint, Michigan, is like. Actually has numbers around it, and that's still not solved. So wild. They would rather buy ultra yachts, you know, or buy Twitter. Exactly. Their whims are in a different scale. And it's about. At a certain point, it's about just whatever makes them happy, not about other people. And that's fundamentally just like a divide that is very stark and hard to breach.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

When you were researching the book, were there any particular. I mean, obviously you probably knew a great deal about a lot of these processes before, but was there anything in particular you learned about, like, the production of beauty products that was particularly dark? Because I'm just gonna set it up for listeners. Like, the way that they write about some of the sourcing of materials and shipping is all first person from the perspective of the material or whoever happens to be there in that part of the process. I never thought that I would be engaged in the journey of an ingredient. Like, I never thought I'd be like, ooh, what's happening with this ingredient? You know, like, it's very literary and engaging, but.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Is there anything in particular that you learned that you were sort of shocked by?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I mean, that whole chapter, the choose your own disaster chapter, was also a learning experience for me. I spent almost a year just interviewing people from every aspect of the industry around the world about what they do in their jobs. And some of it was quite tragic, and some of it was really cool. And so Much of it was just a cloud of bureaucracy. But what I really found so interesting and made it into a couple of pages of that chapter had to do with people that work on shipping container ships, and also the hostage negotiators that deal with shipping containers being taken by pirates and modern day piracy, which is kind of mentioned in the book as like a juicy footnote or as like one of the pages. But they're still modern pirates today and they make a lot of money just by hopping onto a ship and calling up a conglomerate, being like, hey, do you want your ship back? Wow. And they may not. They may not violently harm anybody, but they are just going to stop it from going anywhere. And every single day and every single hour a ship does not make it to its port, every single conglomerate that has ordered space on that ship loses money. And these companies are spending lots and lots of money and more and more every single year because of climate crisis and global warming and strikes and this, that and the other thing to get ships to move around. The tariff situation that we are experiencing now is totally, like, intertwined with the ports and piracy. And just like these conversations, everything costs a lot of money because of political decisions. And pirates are great at taking advantage of that and making every decision really expensive. So I thought that was really fun to learn about.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I want to be a pirate now.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, sorry, this is not pirate apologism. But I did think it was really cool because the negotiators, they have to know like half a dozen languages.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

The languages, yeah.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Right on call. Like their schedules are like a spy.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Maritime law.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

I love you said a quote in the book. You said, beauty is only worth keeping if it is focused on people, not things. Can you tell us kind of where you were going with that and what that means for the future of beauty and how we can keep beauty focused?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

So I think a lot of conversations that we have around the beauty industry have to do with the products we buy in order to look a different way or to fix something about ourselves. And for me, my favorite parts of beauty culture have so little to do with the products involved, but it's more about the connections I'm making with the other people in the room that might be teaching me a technique or complimenting me or doing something that makes me feel cared for. Those moments are what make beauty important to me. It's being able to connect with another person to share a story and to find a way to humanize each other. Right. There's no one who will ride for you harder than a Girl in a. In a bar bathroom, right? Like, she will give you everything. She will give you anything in her bag. She will give you advice. She will give you a hug, and she'll give you her lipstick or something. And those moments of just, like, plain generosity and knowledge sharing and research sharing and care, that makes beauty worth it to me because those connections are what life is about. It's like, how do we find better ways to take care of one another? Beauty is at its best when it's about that, not about the products or things to do to, you know, make people like us more. It's like, I want to know more about you, what you love, what inspires you, what makes you feel curious or spicy and fulfilled. Like, what about you? Can you tell me that we can share? And beauty is often that pathway.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Well, something you just said struck me where it's like, and that connection needs to be me being curious about you, not me wanting to produce a feeling of you being impressed by me or you being like, I love that you got your face left. You know what I mean? Like, it has to be a curious conversation. Otherwise we'll just get re trapped into the loop of, like, comparison. And.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, curiosity and comparison can be intertwined. Like, genuinely, I'm like, when. When one of my friends wants to get a nose job or whatever, we will go into that. That rabbit hole of, like, what is the best technique or skill or skilled surgeon who does the type of work that you like. And it becomes more about craft and signatures because, like, some plastic surgeons do things a different way. You know, like, not every nose job looks the same, and some jobs are legit, like works of art. You're like, how did you see this vision? But it's still, like, about a conversation and transparency and trust and. And care. And I don't like to use the word authentic. I think it's like kind of a meaningless word at this point. But it's about knowing what you want and knowing what you're willing to provide and give to someone else who might be curious and having a conversation around that. And, you know, people might gatekeep a bunch of different things because, like, they're protective. And I think the best conversations about beauty really understand it as a craft and a tool of storytelling. And the most productive versions of beauty come from that. It's like, this is a story we're both involved in. You and I are the main characters of our lives, but we are. We are part of this bigger story together. So why don't we talk about it.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

As like a group and then it's not a cult anymore.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Of course. That made me think of Mary Kay parties growing up. I was like, what does that make me think of where I've connected with people of our beauty? Oh, Mary Kay parties, which are broader there. No, no.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Good.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Cool. Yeah. Are we miss. Are we missing any of the. The parallels?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

No, I mean, it's good that you mentioned, like, Mary Kay prodies because, like, MLMs have been able to Frankenstein community conversations into capitalism in a really exploitative way.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

So that's its own. Its own Pandora's box of a conversation. So I never want to shout out MLMs, but they are a great example of this intertwined connection between community, care and capitalism that we always have to be aware of. And I think we all need better training on how to avoid a hundred percent.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Do you have any, like, guidelines that you live by when, like, choosing a product for how to do it ethically or, you know, just be mindful about.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Our choices, like the red flags of beauty? Yeah, sure. So there's one chapter in the book that's just like red flags to avoid or best practices, because I want that to be a chapter people can like, flip back into and refer to. So there's that. But also I think just doing your research about the kind of values that you really want to prioritize, do you super care about being able to recycle the beauty products? There are certain brands that really prioritize that and having recyclable packaging or reusable stuff, you can look that. That up. There are certain retailers that kind of are built around certain ethos like Credo. Beauty cares a lot about sustainability and this idea of clean beauty, and clean beauty is its own conversation, but they make sure that their products that they stock don't have this, that and the other thing. And they've done a lot of the legwork for the consumer, which is good because honestly, the average consumer shouldn't have to become a PhD or a beauty reporter to buy something. It should just be easier for everybody. For me, I think just asking questions and doing your research on who owns a brand, what do they stand for? That matters to me because I don't want to give my money to someone that actively doesn't want me to have rights.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Right. I do highly recommend that chapter and the book in general. One of the things you mentioned there was this marketing of natural as good and synthetic as bad and why that is like a marketing binary, basically, that is frequently not reflective of what is actually good. To use or not use. And that's something that I think intersects with cults a lot. Just in the sort of wellness.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

100%. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

The distrust of anything modern, you know.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Totally the pipeline between like using beef tallow and only drinking like thinking like non pasteurized milk is like a thing that you should do to becoming a trad wife to being like red pilled and you know, being in a particular kind of cold. Like those are all interconnected.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

It's like this belief that anything that you, that you can't make yourself at home is going to poison you. I saw a video the other day from someone being like, you should make your own sunscreen at home and sunscreen causes cancer. And I'm like, you have literally done no research in your entire life actually and you will be the one that gets sun cancer because you aren't. You don't believe in science. Right. So there's, there's definitely a connection there. But the people that are often the victims of it would never be open to the science of it. So it kind of feels doomed sometimes to have these conversations. Oh sure. Well.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And I was just gonna add something in that chapter woke me up a bit where it's just like these industries lull us to sleep. Where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna buy this green, you know, super natural product off Amazon now. I've just gotten it shipped across the ocean in a box. Wasted a shit ton of like I, I just never thought critically enough about that not.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

But how it gets to you, how.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It like now has undone any clean green whatever. So like my critical thinking was definitely turned off in that area. So. So yeah, surprise, surprise.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

No, that's why local products are so much more expensive in comparison. Right. Because the offset that Amazon can afford to create makes it seem like convenience is so cheap, but it's actually very expensive. We're just not paying for the cost up front. The cost is climate crisis. Right. It's not numerical to us yet, but when you know, systems begin to collapse or people pass out in warehouses, that is the cost. But we're not paying it as consumers.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

So yeah, the deforestation stuff also very.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I very. Yeah, it's a bad vibe. Sorry.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, it's very depressing. But, but I also beautifully written and eye opening in a way that I think is important and yeah, I.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And hopeful. You said you, you thought the book would be crueler it and it wasn't. You know, there's some hard stuff to read but at the end of the day I Come away hopeful and wanting to go brush my friend's hair and give each other manicures and connect with people. So thank you.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Good. That was the point. I'm glad that that was what you took away from it.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Where can people find you? Where can they find your book?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

You can find the House of Beauty pretty much wherever books are sold in the US like Barnes Noble, bookshop.org, your local indie bookstore. There are two bookstores in the United States that have scented bookmarks and signed pre orders, and those are Skylight Books in LA and Books are Magic in New York, so you can get fancier copies there. But yeah, you can just Google it online, find it, and ideally join me for one of the book events across. Across the country that are happening in October and November.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Amazing.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And did you. Did you give your Instagram handle? Do you or do you have a handle you want to give?

[Arabelle Sicardi]

I do, yeah. So I'm currently online and my handle is the same everywhere. So you could find me on Instagram Arabellsicardi or on substack.arabellsacardi. substack. Com. You know, say hi. Send me a pic of the book if you buy it. Sick.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Awesome. Thank you so much.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yes. Thank you for joining us.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Thank you for having me.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

So that was a fascinating episode. I think we both know that we are in the cult of beauty for the long run. Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of what it is. We've been infected.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

At least we're aware of it.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

We're aware. We're aware about it's. It's there for sure. For sure. So one of the things that really struck me about beauty being a cult that hadn't before I read this book is just the moving goalpost of beauty. And how you said it in the episode, like, some of the most beautiful women you've ever met still don't feel beautiful because it's like, you can never actually achieve it. It has to be an inner knowing beyond physicality. Because the goalpost does always move every second and you never reach your destination. Maybe you do for like a year, but.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And even then, though, like, there's. There's so many types of beauty. So.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Even if we're like. Even if you achieve maximum beauty as one type of beauty.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Yes.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Then you're still gonna meet someone whose maximum beauty, a different type of beauty. And that's gonna make you feel insecure.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

If you are insecure.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Correct.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, I'm definitely like, my type of beauty is like, Goth, like, right. You know, girl who gets cast as the bitchy friend all the time. Like, that's my particular type of beauty. And sometimes I'm like, but I should have maximum beauty as, you know, someone with long blonde hair and like a toned abs and I want it. That's not what I am.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it definitely opens so many paths to, like, I'm just going to call what you're saying envy. I relate. I have it as well, you know, but like, it opens so many paths for women to be pitted against each other. It gives us their abilities and it's totally undermines a big part of how we could be coming together. So I love her point that beauty should be in the connection and like.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

And.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And, yeah. And our connection to ourselves. And it's okay if other people are beautiful. That's so.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

It's.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

We're all be. You know, like, I don't know. That's something that I think growing older has become easier and easier to acknowledge and like, it's such a better place to be.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Like, yeah.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

You're all so beautiful. And that's great. I love that for. For you, for everyone, for all of us.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

And if you don't care about beauty, well, then that's great too. Is that something normal to say?

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Also, beauty is not the most important thing.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, exactly. It's like a cherry on top.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Yeah. You know, one time I was at a party and a famous woman who was much older than me, I walked up and she was like, wow, you're so beautiful. Which was very nice. And she was like, but I'm sure it's just the cherry on top.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Oh.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

And I was like, oh, okay. And I don't know.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Yeah, now I wanna know who it is.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

I'll tell you later.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Okay.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Trust me. We can't wait to see you again next week. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Bye.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark and Daniel Kramer.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

You can find us on Instagram usmepodcast or on TikTok usmecult podcast.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

This is Alec Murdoch. I need police and an ambulance immediately.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Murdoch Death in the Family Official Podcast is here. I'm joining Patricia Arquette, Jason Clark and.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

The cast to uncover all things Murdoch.

[Host 1 (possibly Christina Chamberlain or a main host)]

Family first to unravel the story piece by piece was really surprising because you.

[Host 2 (possibly Lola Blanc or Megan Elizabeth)]

Don'T want to believe it.

[Arabelle Sicardi]

Murdoch Death in the Family Official Podcast Wednesdays and stream Death in the Family on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

[Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang]

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