Caleb Ward, Part 2 - Disneyland for Christians and Exiting the Church

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation
Episode: Caleb Ward, Part 2 - Disneyland for Christians and Exiting the Church
Release Date: February 26, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth

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Introduction

In the second part of their in-depth interview series, Trust Me welcomes Caleb Ward, a former evangelical Christian and pastor’s son, to explore the intricate dynamics of evangelical culture in the early 2000s. Hosted by Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth, both survivors of cult-like environments, this episode delves into Caleb's personal journey from growing up in a tightly-knit Christian community to ultimately deciding to leave the evangelical church. Through Caleb's firsthand account, listeners gain insight into the seductive allure and subtle manipulations within organized religion.

Heritage USA: Disneyland for Christians

Caleb opens the discussion by introducing Heritage USA, which he describes as "Disneyland for Christians." This expansive complex included a hotel, shopping center, conference halls, and a water park, all tailored to create a safe and immersive environment for evangelical Christians.

Caleb Ward [26:56]: "It was basically like this center where, like, we would come and go to conferences or, like, youth trips or things like that."

He recounts visiting Heritage USA during his college years, witnessing its desolate state after its closure in the 1990s due to tax fraud. Caleb vividly describes the eerie scene upon his return:

Caleb Ward [27:08]: "It looked like everybody had been, like, raptured. Like sandwiches were half-eaten, like chairs were pulled out. It was like somebody walked in one day and went, like, okay, everybody out."

This experience served as a poignant metaphor for his own sense of loss and the abrupt disintegration of the community he once knew.

The Influence of Church Leadership

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the role of church leadership in fostering a healthy versus manipulative environment. Caleb speaks highly of his father, a pastor who exemplified compassionate and ethical leadership without exerting excessive control over his congregation.

Caleb Ward [34:34]: "My dad was an example maybe, of like, a healthy leadership."

Caleb highlights how his father's approach differed from more controlling religious leaders, emphasizing open dialogue and genuine care for individuals rather than enforcing strict conformity.

Performative Emotions and Psychological Manipulation

Caleb reflects on the performative aspects of evangelical gatherings, where emotional displays were often encouraged as signs of genuine faith. He relates this to broader psychological manipulations often employed in cults to reinforce belief systems.

Caleb Ward [13:20]: "People laying hands on me, like, speaking in tongues... it just felt like a trick. When I finally looked back on it, I was like, I was being tricked."

He draws parallels between his experiences in the church and other high-energy environments like Tony Robbins' seminars, illustrating how heightened emotional states can be manipulated to influence individuals.

Cultural Touchstones: Creation Fest and Christian Music

The episode delves into Creation Fest, a prominent Christian music festival that Caleb attended as a teenager. Comparing it to secular events like Bonnaroo, Caleb describes it as a place where evangelical youth congregated to celebrate their faith through music and communal activities.

Caleb Ward [31:24]: "It was a three, four day festival where, like, you know, young people would come. It was like all youth groups from, like, all over... hundreds of thousands of people would come."

Caleb also touches upon the impact of Christian rock bands and music as tools for both community building and subtle indoctrination.

Concepts of Heaven and Hell

A recurring theme in Caleb's upbringing was the fear of hell and the opaque nature of heaven as taught by his church. He critiques the lack of concrete descriptions, which left him grappling with existential questions from a young age.

Caleb Ward [48:51]: "Because I didn't have that. So I'm like, Even the lack of structure was confusing."

Caleb explains how these teachings contributed to his internal conflict and eventual skepticism towards the rigid doctrines he was raised with.

Personal Journey and Identity Formation

Caleb narrates his path towards self-discovery and the gradual dismantling of the belief systems imposed on him. His involvement in the arts, particularly music and film production, provided an avenue for expressing and redefining his identity outside the confines of his evangelical upbringing.

Caleb Ward [51:20]: "Finding my identity, like, finding the things that I, like, am passionate about... is just sort of, like, trying to educate myself more on other religions."

This exploration extended to embracing diverse perspectives and fostering a more agnostic viewpoint, moving away from the binary understanding of faith he once held.

Healing and Hope after Leaving the Church

Leaving an entrenched religious community came with significant challenges, including ostracization and strained relationships. Caleb shares his ongoing journey of healing, supported by therapy and the rebuilding of family bonds.

Caleb Ward [35:20]: "I'm trying to work through. And I'm in therapy and I'm trying to figure it out, but I still hold on to a lot of anger."

Despite the initial pain, Caleb emphasizes the possibility of rebuilding a fulfilling and authentic life post-evangelical church, highlighting the importance of personal growth and community support.

Recommendations and Resources

Caleb recommends further reading and watching to better understand the indoctrination and manipulation within evangelical communities:

• "Upon This Rock" by John Jeremiah Sullivan
  An essay that explores Caleb's experiences with Heritage USA and the broader evangelical movement.

  Caleb Ward [58:05]: "If you haven't seen it, and I feel like it's fairly popularized now, but, like, the documentary Jesus Camp... that nails it."

• "Jesus Camp" Documentary
  A film that portrays the intense religious indoctrination of children in evangelical camps, resonating closely with Caleb's own experiences.

Conclusion

In this heartfelt and revealing episode, Caleb Ward provides a compelling narrative of his life within evangelical Christianity and the profound transformation that led him to seek a different path. Through his story, Trust Me sheds light on the subtle manipulations and emotional coercion often present in organized religion, offering listeners both cautionary tales and hope for those looking to break free from similar environments.

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Notable Quotes:

• Caleb Ward [13:20]: "I was being tricked... it felt like I was being manipulated in some way to feel a certain way."

• Caleb Ward [34:34]: "My dad was an example maybe, of like, a healthy leadership."

• Caleb Ward [35:20]: "I'm trying to work through. And I'm in therapy and I'm trying to figure it out, but I still hold on to a lot of anger."

• Caleb Ward [58:05]: "If you haven't seen it, and I feel like it's fairly popularized now, but, like, the documentary Jesus Camp... that nails it."

• Caleb Ward [51:20]: "Finding my identity, like, finding the things that I am passionate about... is just sort of, like, trying to educate myself more on other religions."

---

Resources Mentioned:

• Upon This Rock by John Jeremiah Sullivan
• Jesus Camp Documentary

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Upcoming:

Caleb Ward mentions his upcoming horror film, "Descendant," which is set to premiere at South by Southwest later in the year.

Caleb Ward [59:12]: "I have a movie called Descendant that's premiering at South by that'll probably be out later this year."

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For more stories and insights on cults and extreme belief systems, subscribe to Trust Me on your preferred podcast platform and join hosts Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth as they continue to explore the fine line between devotion and delusion.

Transcript

[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Caleb Ward]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

If you have your own story of being in a cult or a high.

Control group, or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse of power that you'd like to share, leave us a.

Message on our hotline number at 34786.

That'S 347-868-7878 or shoot us an email.

At trustmepodgmail.com Trust me dude.

You trust me.

Trust me. I'm like a smart person. Yeah, I've never lied to you. I never have lied.

If you think that one person has all the answers, don't. Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two Christian rock band groupies who've actually spread experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth and today is.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Part two of our interview with Caleb Ward, my friend and former evangelical Christian and pastor's son. So Caleb wasn't in a strict cult per se, as you might have learned last week, but talking to him offers a window into evangelical culture in the early 2000s that we thought would be relatable for many of our listeners. This week, we're going to talk about some of the cultural touchstones of his youth, including Heritage usa, which was basically Disneyland for Christians and Christian rock bands. Plus his fear of losing his virginity before marriage and what hell meant to each of us growing up.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We'll talk more about how healthy church leadership can exist and how his dad was an example of that, how his parents were ostracized when they left the church and what solidified his decision to leave evangelical Christianity.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Megan is a little sick today. I am.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Can you tell?

[Trust Me Podcast]

Don't worry, she's not sick in the interview itself.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, no. My voice will only be like this for a few more seconds, friends.

[Trust Me Podcast]

I promise.

All right, well, before we get into it with Caleb, who is a delight, it's. It's a nice break from some of the very dark things happening in our country and world at the moment. Megan, are you able to verbalize your culties thing of the week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Mine's very current. It takes us back to 1977.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Oh, okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So in my, like NyQuil induced fever, fever dream, I watched this entire Netflix Son of Sam documentary. Have you seen this yet?

[Trust Me Podcast]

No. Tell me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So it was just following those. This horrific serial killer in New York city in the 70s and then connected it all to this cult called the Process that was also operating near where Charles Manson was located. And the kind of takeaway is that it might have had branches into all of these offshoot killing spree people. So interesting watch. Really, really violent and disgusting. They though all of them were, like, obsessed with killing dogs, and now the process has become a dog rescue, which I'm so confused about. So, you know, it's a dark little place that I wouldn't recommend unless you happen to be full of nyquil. But it is very interesting and I should probably watch it again because I don't fully remember it, but I. I did take notes and that's. And that's what happen. So, yeah, that's mine.

[Trust Me Podcast]

I want your NyQuil induced cultiest thing every week, like sort of vague impressions of things.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, but you guys, that's really scary. So, you know, make a note of that for dinner conversations. What about you? What about you, Lola? What's your cultiest thing?

[Trust Me Podcast]

Well, as always, it's the country, but.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, the news, the news, the news, the news.

[Trust Me Podcast]

I'm, I'm gonna not talk too much about it this week. I'm trying restrain myself from being too doomsday every single week, but it's pretty bad. What I will talk about is an article that came out actually last year about a study that came out that showed that half of Americans don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

What?

So there was. The person who wrote this article teaches a class called Assumptions Challenge. And they, you know, he's talking about how he assumed that his students would know the difference. Difference. But researchers at the University of Illinois Urbana Champaign. Am I saying that right? Asked participants to categorize 12 statements about current events as facts or opinions. 45.7% could do that correctly. No more than half the time. So it's like, you know, a fact would be like, there are 475 people living in this town. And an opinion would be, warm weather.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is better than cold.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Yes, yes. And obviously, like, in our current media landscape, it can make it very difficult because people are sort of, they can present the same information in a completely different way and make it sound like a fact. So I do understand why that would be difficult for people right now, especially when so much of our information comes from social media. And then the distrust has been sown in, you know, sort of like legacy media, and oftentimes for good reason. So it can be really hard to navigate. But half of Americans not knowing, like, the difference between a fact statement and an opinion statement is really staggering, I thought. Yeah, it's interesting. I, I, I, it makes sense to me that we are where we are, but I don't even really know what my takeaway is other than that this feels like something that's really important to me to talk about and try to help spread awareness about, like, how language can create bias in our minds and how it's so important to look underneath that and, like, look at the actions themselves instead of just what people are saying about it. And, you know, go, go to the source material and see what it is. We should probably just do another episode on the media literacy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It sounds like an episode.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So I, like, interrupted your fact and just said, cold is.

[Trust Me Podcast]

No, that was good. That was good. That was helpful. I was blanking. So. Yeah. Anyway, so that's my takeaway. And we, I think it's probably time to have some more experts on the show because it's been a minute and there's so much to navigate right now can be so challenging and that's my cultist thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Perfect. Well, shall we talk to Caleb?

[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Caleb Ward]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

One of the things you kind of mentioned when we talked prior to today was how you would get these strong feelings in church and around church. And I like, I don't know how you couldn't given how heightened these rituals are. How do you think that shaped your young mind?

Well, like I was saying, it's very performative at times and like very theatrical. Which is why I think I like leaned into the arts and like I did a lot of like musicals and plays. Like performance was like just felt like every day, right. That heightened state. Like I had a really interesting situation when I was in college and I like went to a concert. I couldn't tell you who I was seeing.

It was probably Jars of Clay.

No, no, this was after, this was after. God, I wish I'd have seen Jars of Clay. They, they were bangers. Jars of clay. O.C. supertones, newsboys. Oh, I could keep going. D.C. talk. Oh yeah, I have to talk about Creation Fest at some point too.

Yes.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That just like, that brought back a flood of memories. But to answer your question, like it's, it's such a strange thing because like I can like take myself there, like mentally. Like I can find myself back in that place of, like, it feeling so real at the time, like. Like, people laying hands on me, like, speaking in tongues. Like, I would speak in tongues, you know, hearing a prophetic word over me playing drums and, like, really feeling the emotion. But it's like, that's. It's performance, it's music, it's emotion. Like that. It just felt like a trick. When I finally looked back on it, I was like. I was, like, tricking myself or I was being tricked. It felt like. Like I was being sort of, like, manipulated in some way to feel a certain way. And like, there were some, like, youth pastors or other pastors really, like, push you into it. Like, you've got to feel this, and you're gonna feel this. And, like, I saw that happen to so many people who eventually, like, left the church, I think, because they just probably started to feel almost, like, bullied in some way.

Right.

You know, that was a big thing, which I mentioned at the top is, like, when people would leave, like, they would just disappear, basically.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Trust Me Podcast]

You know, like, it was like they had died and, like, we didn't speak to them. And how they laughed. Or they're on the path or they're off the path.

I mean, I've talked about this on here before. In Mormonism, you feel the spirit, and you're supposed to bear your testimony, which is a much quieter version of what you're talking about. Because I'd like to bear my testimony that I know this church is true. And I know Joseph Smith was a real prophet or was a prophet. Is the prophet. I don't fucking know. I don't remember now. And people would start crying. And I went to efy, which is like, teenager camp for Mormons, and all these kids would be going up and crying, and I was like, what is wrong with you?

Why am I not feeling this?

Yes. And I have to imagine the people who were more prone to crying probably are more prone to crying at concerts, too, or in TV shows, you know.

That'S what I was trying to say. I went to a concert in college and just became very emotional, and I was like, that's what this is.

Right?

And when I really cracked that code, I was like, oh, my God. That's all this is. It's just like. It's like, I just love music.

Yeah. Yeah.

It just like. Or like this sort of, like, herd mentality, like, can really suck you in, like, if you start crying and you start crying, like, I'm probably gonna start crying just. Just the way I feed off of people.

Who have a scene in midsummer.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

You know, ever where they just.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

It's so easy to, like, get caught up in that. Because if you're like, even like remotely tapped into, like, your emotional self and like your emotional well being, I think it's really easy to get caught up in that and that just like cracking that code. Because even now my wife and I were back home for Christmas in Florida, and my grandmother, who is 90, really wanted to take us to her church's, which is way more traditional, like Baptist. Very, very Southern Baptist. Just like, you know, simple, like, not speaking in tongues. None of that. She wanted us to go see her Christmas light show. Like, they had this crazy Christmas light show on the outside of the building that would like, run every hour on the hour. And I went and like, I kind of had a moment where, like, I felt like, very emotional. It was just sort of like hearing all these, like, words over and over again or like hearing the story of like, Jesus, like, it just like taps into something that, like, is still like, locked away somewhere deep in my psyche.

Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I think is so important for I wish more of society understood was that any, basically any group in any church can create a heightened emotional experience in you. And having a heightened emotional experience is not equal to the teachings being true or the leader being the real prophet.

Absolutely.

Because there are a million ways to produce that state in someone.

I went to a Tony Robbins seminar and walked across hot coals because everybody was shouting the same word altogether.

Yeah, I mean, of course that'd make you feel.

I was like.

Like something insane is happening right across the coals.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Wow.

God is not. God is not doing that.

That's worse. I always thought the Tony Robbins hot coal thing was a rumor. I didn't realize it was a real thing. It was real.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It was real.

[Trust Me Podcast]

And how were your feet after?

I was totally fine, but the woman behind me got like, burnt a little. They had an ambulance.

What? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, you can like, actually get very burnt, but.

Well, they're hot coals.

But I do think you can get your mind into a state. Yeah, that.

Well, that's a very. That's a. That's a very old, like, tradition or.

What's the word?

Yeah. I don't know where it comes from, but, like, that's something. I feel like it's essentially. It's like endurance and it's sort of like building your body up. Well.

And then when you put your fingers through a flame and it's really fast. You're not gonna get burn.

Cause like, same thing if I grab a hot pot really quickly. Like, I'm probably not gonna get third degree burns.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

This was a long walk. This was a long little walk. But the chanting and the 18 hour day of him screaming at us really had me.

Wow.

Had me ready to go, that's for sure.

Yeah.

So that makes sense.

And for some groups it's like meditation for hours. And for some groups it's like your group where this very outward, very loud sort of worship. And it takes many different forms. But I think the common denominator is that members are like, well, I wouldn't feel this strongly if it wasn't true. And it's like, no, I mean, you could feel this strongly pretty much anywhere we had a guest on who, you know, it was like a one Direction. Stan fans will experience the same thing in that event.

It's the same thing with like girls crying when the Beatles showed up.

Right.

It's the same thing.

Right. You know, and I think that can be really hard. Hard pill to swallow because it's so, you know, you want there to be magic in life.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't know about you, but for me, like after I found out that my prophet was not a real prophet and was just a con man, I had believed that I was special. And like, life had this very like big importance, you know? Cause I was like one of the chosen. One of literally like the two chosen people on the planet. So after sort of exiting that life just seemed so much more boring. And I was like, wait, I. But that's. But that was. But that was more exciting.

Like, isn't that hard to reckon with? Like the idea that you're not special or this thing that you've been told for your entire life might be a croc or might be based in selfishness or foolish desires. That's really hard to reckon with.

Painful.

It's your life.

Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons I turned to entertainment. Because I was like, no, I will be special. I'm gonna be a pop star. Fucking.

Yeah. It's good that you leaned into an industry that's incredibly stable. Yeah, totally. And really respects you and your identity.

But I thrive on the chaos.

Ca. Same. Same.

Yeah. I don't know. That's. That. That. That was one of the things about your story that sort of stuck with me the most because it wasn't just the services. Also, like, you were going to Heritage usa, which is Disneyland for Christians.

Well, I was gonna say that me being, like, a little bit on the spectrum, I think protected me sometimes from things. I think me being spectrumy protected me from a lot of the things that y' all are talking about, because I never really. I know when other people are feeling emotion, I feel very strong emotion. I'm very sensitive, but not necessarily when I'm supposed to. And if other people around me are feeling something, I almost like. I'm like, oh, I don't want to feel it.

Oh, wow.

Well, I mean, I. I wasn't feeling what they were feeling. I just felt the pressure to fit in, but I didn't actually, like, understand it.

I don't know how to explain it. Maybe I'm guilty.

No, that's. That, like, it's almost like. Okay. The only way I can describe it, maybe you've experienced this is like, have you ever been at a. Like, a restaurant with, like, 10 people and you're talking to, like, one person and eight other people are talking about something, and all of a sudden they burst into laughter?

Right.

And you didn't hear it.

Right.

It's almost, like, jarring. It, like, will, like, hurt my ears, and it, like, scares me because it's like, I'm not a part of the thing.

Right, yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah.

Okay.

I feel that a lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dinner parties, we're, like.

Double down on it. Not being funny and look at them and are like, okay.

It'S not that. Like, I'm not a part of the joke. It's like, I didn't see that coming. It's like somebody, like, blaring an air horn in your face.

Well, I also just hate when people make noise so that you're a musician. Please don't laugh in my general vicinity.

Yeah.

Everybody be quiet.

No one emote in any capacity towards Lola. Okay? Got it.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

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[Lola Blanc]

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[Trust Me Podcast]

Tell us about Heritage USA.

Yeah, Heritage USA.

This can't be real.

It's a real thing. So Jim and Tammy Faye Baker RIP yes. Are they both.

They're no longer with us.

Okay. Yeah. I really love the eyes of Tammy Faye. I loved the Michael Showalter film with Jessica Show. I feel like it, like. And they talk a lot about Heritage USA in that there's a section that's sort of all about it. So if you want to kind of like get an idea of what it looked like, it was basically, yeah, like Disneyland for Christians. It was a hotel. It was a shopping complex. It was a conference center. It was a water park. There was a castle that was like an arcade. It's gone now. It's like, not even like the, like, there's no rubble. I think it's like a parking lot. I don't even know. And it was on the border of north and South Carolina. And it was basically like this center where, like, we would come and Go to. Go to conferences or, like, youth trips or things like that. And we mostly went when we were in Baltimore because it was. It was closed down in the 90s for, I think, like, tax fraud. And they talked a lot about how there's an article online you can read, like, somebody used to work there that, like, they went back, like, a few months later, and it looked like everybody had been, like, raptured. Like, it was like sandwiches were half eaten, like, chairs were pulled out. It was like everybody. It was like somebody walked in one day and went, like, okay, everybody out. And, like, that was it.

Beautiful and ironic ending.

So this was a place we would go. We would take, like, youth trips. Like, this is something I went to when I was. When I was very little. Obviously. This was born in 91. And it was this place where, like, it was just like, this, like, haven for people sort of in that, like, evangelical mentality, where they would come and see, like, famous, you know, pastors come and preach, you know, like, nowadays. It'd be like the Joel Osteens of the world, you know, or like T.D.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Jakes.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Or you'd go see Kirk Franklin perform. You know, a lot of these guys who are sort of like these mega church, you know, influencers. That's a whole other can of worms. And it was just so wild. But, like, I went back when I was in college. I was dating a girl who grew up in Charlotte. And, like, we went there for, like, Thanksgiving, I think, and I was like, I. I had completely forgotten about Heritage usa. I'd, like, buried it, like, in my psyche somewhere. And we went. She was like, oh, you gotta see this abandoned amusement park. And I was like, oh, sick. That sounds awesome. Like, abandoned amusement park. She's like, yeah, it's right on the border. Like, it's all fenced up, but we gotta go and, like, check it out. I was like, cool. And I went. And it was like. Like somebody had, like, plugged a USB in my head. That was like, here's all those memories. And it was like, I've been here before. Oh, my God. This is the castle. And there's the water park, and there's the center. And, like, there's the. The atrium where the amphitheater was, where people would put on, like, passion plays and things like that. It was insane. And it was just this decrepit old building. I think they demolished it, like, six months later. So I got to see it, like, right before apocalypse. It's crazy. You can find it on YouTube. Like, there's, like. There's like old seminar videos and you can kind of like tour through. There's like an ad for it. It's. It's wild.

But it was a. It was a theme park for.

For Christians. It was all based in Christianity. Was all based in, like, evangelical Christianity. So it was like a safe place to come as a Christian where you don't have to deal with all those, like, worldly trappings of Disney World or King's Dominion or Universal Studios.

I mean, was there a mouse of any sort? Was there?

I don't think they had a man. I don't remember if they had a mascot. I bet they did.

I mean, do you think it was.

Jesus, like on a cross walking around.

And like, Mary's walking around, or would that be blasphemous?

No, I do remember. I do remember seeing, like, there were people, like, dressed as wise men and shepherds and things like that that would kind of like wander around. I do remember that.

Yeah.

Get your picture with.

You know, I'm not like, Izar see a guy on a date. I'm a wise man at Heritage.

Well, there is still an experience called the Holy Land Experience that's in Orlando, Florida. And it is essentially as though you have stepped into Jerusalem.

Whoa.

Yeah. I can't imagine what the vibe is like there right now. I was gonna talk about Creation Fest.

Yeah, tell us. Creation Fest.

So, okay, so Creation Fest. I have so many more memories of. Cause this is something I did as like a teenager. Creation Fest. It's still around.

Oh, thank God.

But, yeah, I think it's a lot smaller now, but it took place in Pennsylv on a farm in Pennsylvania. It started in the 80s and it was a three or four, four day music festival. And there were like three stages and like the Newsboys and Switch Foot and DC Talk and. Oh, my God. Trying to remember all the other band. There was a. The main stage and then there was the Fringe stage. And like, the Fringe stage is where, like, Pod plays, you know, and like Family Force 5. Do not look them up. Good Lord, no, I have to. Oh, God. It's like techno rock.

Oh, my God.

And like, it was like this three, four day festival where, like, you know, young people would come. It was like all youth groups from, like, all over. All over the world, really. It was hundreds of thousands of people would come to this place. There was an incredible essay called upon this Rock written by John Jeremiah Sullivan. It's in a book of essays called Polped. He's an incredible essayist. He's written a lot for like, gq. And he wrote a book or he wrote a essay called upon this Rock that is about him going to Creation Fest and, like, getting in really tight with, like, a group of, like, bikers, like, reformed biker gangs. And there was this, like, mountain that you could climb up and you could see, you know, all of the. All of you know, the festival grounds. But it was like a camping festival. It was like Bonnaroo for Christians. And, like, we would go and, like, you would hear. You know, you would hear church services, and there'd be youth services, but it was just like, a bunch of, like, horny teenagers in tents.

Right.

Of which I did not get to take place in any of that because I was so fearful of losing my virginity until I was married, because that was so ingrained in me, of course. But, like, yeah, there was just like. Like, that was. The thing is, like, I have a lot of, like, fun, fond memories that oftentimes can get, like, overshadowed by, like, the reality of what was happening when I would come back.

It's so much cognitive dissonance. Like, I had such a idyllic childhood, but also so terrifying, and adults looking in my face and being like, you're probably going to hell.

Oh, God.

Okay.

Yeah. Something. You have to deal with it. Same. Like, I. Like, I had an incredible childhood. My parents are incredible. We're very close. They understand sort of, like, where I am in, like, my beliefs, and, like, we have a very open, honest dialogue. They have, like, really since they left the church six years ago, they've really. Like, a lot of stuff has happened since then that they've really just sort of, like, softened about a lot of things. They still believe very much what they believe, but, like, I think that leaving the church was so good for them in so many ways.

Yeah, you're so. Like, your dad was a pastor, and I just want to, like, mention that, like, you can be a religious leader and not be a bad person.

Yeah.

Like, you. Like, it sounds like your dad was an example maybe, of, like, a healthy. Of healthy leadership.

Yeah, he really, really just wanted to, like, help people. He would do a lot of, like, couples. Couples, like, not therapy, but, like, like, I guess couples therapy.

Counseling.

Couples counseling. That was it. Thank you. You do a lot of, like, couples counseling and, like, one on one, he. They. My parents took in people that would, like. That would stay with them for, like, months and then, like, just, like, disappear. Like, people were, like, recovering addicts or, like, single mothers or, like, you know, people that just, like, they just genuinely wanted to help, you know, I think.

A lot of people are like that. Like, it's not about hating, hating on Christianity as much as the, you know, current administration would like to think that Christianity is under attack. It's like, there is such thing as healthy leadership, but what that looks like is when there isn't an extreme degree of control, when there isn't an extreme degree of ostracization, and people are allowed to essentially be themselves and worship in the way that they want to worship. Right.

Like, that's what it should be about. Yeah.

And, like, looking back now, like, what would you say are in the evangelical community, maybe in general? Because you kind of were a part.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Of that whole world.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Like, what are the parts of it that you think are maybe not the healthiest?

The parts that are, like, not the healthiest is sort of this ostracization.

It's hard to say that word.

I know.

Yeah.

It is. Of groups for believing differently or feeling a certain way or, like, having shifting beliefs. It's like, it's a very organic thing, you know, belief in general. Whatever you believe in, whatever you believe in or don't believe in, like, it's a very organic thing. Something that, like, I feel like I'm constantly sort of, like, battling with or trying to understand or stepping away from and coming back to. It's just like, what do I believe in? Like, what do I don't. What do I not believe in? I would consider myself, like, a very strong agnostic, where I'm like, I don't have the answers. I barely understand how mirrors work. Like, I'm not going to question the existence of the universe. Like, I, you know, barely understand that even. And so I think that, like, the really terrible thing is this, like, ostracizing of people because it is so unhealthy and it's so unfair and it's really vicious. I don't speak to 90% of the people that I knew for the first 18 years of my life. Like, they're just gone.

Because you left and you are.

I left. And then. And once my parents left, it was a really awful situation where my father handed the church down to a younger pastor, and they were essentially just ostracized. And as though, like, they hadn't given the last, you know, 13 year or, gosh, no more than that 17 years of their life to that church and that congregation, just like, their community just disappeared.

Was he merely retiring or did he find.

My dad has dealt with, like, my dad has dealt with health issues for most of his life. And basically there was a really horrible hurricane that came through in 2019, and he had handed the church over right before that. And he told me shortly after that, he was like, if I'd have still been pastoring the church when that came through, I think it would have killed me just because how much he had to deal with. And so I'm really thankful for that. But when they stepped down, it's a thing that, like, I don't understand because I just have a hard time wrapping my head around, like, how you could have somebody in your life for that long and they decide to do something for their own health and well being.

Right.

And it's as though, like, they've slighted you and that's.

They felt betrayed that he didn't want to lead anymore. Was he still going to be a member?

He was still a member. But, like, they started to feel unwelcome and that's why they left. They just, they were. They left. They still lived in the town for, for several years before they moved back to Florida where they are now. But like, they were. I mean, they were like ghosts. And my mom went through breast cancer essentially, like on her own with my dad.

Oh, that's so sad.

And I have a lot of, like, anger towards this community still.

Yeah.

That I'm trying to work through. And I'm in therapy and I'm trying to figure it out, but it. I. I still hold on to a lot of anger. And my parents were angry and not, not angry. They were very disappointed in how that all went down when they left for a very long time. And they've really grown past it to like, really let a lot of that go. They're so good at that. And like, I am not.

Well, when it's your parents, you're, like, protective.

It's way more than that. It's way more that. Than it is even, like, the religious aspect. It's like, those are my parents.

Like how you're like, you fuckers. My mom had to deal with that by herself. You were her community.

Yeah. Yeah. Disappeared.

Yeah. That's disgusting.

There have been some. There have been a handful who have been, like, really, really, really, really good to them and, like, have really stuck with them as friends. But I'd say, like, but like 90, 95% of the congregation just overnight gone.

Ugh.

Yeah.

It's so hard. As someone you know, I. I'm not anti religion, but I am very skeptical of most religions. But in. And in particular, like, this sort of brand of Christianity that purports to be about worshiping or following, you know, following Christ.

It's also about building community and spreading the word and like bringing in and being kind. Like that's what Jesus's message was all about.

And so many of these churches, like a lot of the mega churches that are making a lot of money, like their primary messages are like, that's, you know, that's the opposite of what Jesus is talking about. Right. You know, that's like actually like hate. That's hate, yeah. Or you know, like discriminating, like prioritizing money and wealth.

And it's like, that's literally the opposite racism. It's just so utterly.

It's so unchristian.

So unchristian. It's so. And even as like a two year old, I could see that and be like, weird.

Yeah.

You know, only because it's like at the top of my brain because I was listening to it on the way over. I was listening to this, like I was telling you, I was listening to this like, playlist that I had put together of like, oh my God, what were the, like late 90s, early 2000s, just like Christian pop bangers. And there's a quote at the beginning of. There's a really famous song called Jesus Freak. Have you ever heard this song? No. Okay. It's DC Talk. Jesus freak from like 90.

You're really elevating DC Talk's status right now. Cause I had never heard of this band.

What a bummer. What a bummer. Toby Mack LEAD SINGER DC TALK so at the beginning of the song there's a quote and it's something to the degree of the greatest cause of atheism in the world is Christians. He says it's like a quote at the beginning. And when I heard that again this morning. This is a song I've heard probably a hundred thousand times, like when I was a kid. And like I heard that this morning for the first time. And I was like, that's at the beginning of that. Like, that's so true.

That's interesting.

Like the.

But they were Christians.

But they're just saying like the shitty Christians.

Right? Wow, that's cool.

Like, that's the thing is like the re I. One of the biggest reasons why I stepped away from Christianity was the people. Yeah, one of the biggest reasons.

Yeah.

Judgmental little meanies. What I don't understand is, was there something about this church in particular that was like, you have to be at this one. Like if you go to a different one.

Yeah, there was something wherein like they had all felt like they had kind of Tapped into a source that it was like uncharted waters. Like, we're all discovering this together. Like, we're all Indiana Jones and we're, like, carving out this artifact and we're gonna figure it out together. Like, this is new. This is new new. You know, this isn't like that same old, same old. Like, we're figuring this out together. It was like discovering a new belief system, like, within evangelical Christianity.

Yeah.

That was at the core of this. Like, you gotta be here because I'm picking up on something that nobody else is picking up on.

Yeah. So jumping ship was like, really? You're taking.

It was like, wow, you really, like, energy. Really gave up. You really abandoned shit.

The matrix of we're figuring this out. So, like, imagine. Yeah, I get that.

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[Trust Me Podcast]

What was the thing for you that really, like, solidified? Like, okay, I'm not interested in this religion.

I think it started after high school really pretty deeply, where I just started to realize that that connection that I felt like I had had for a very long time was based in artifice. And it was more this story that I'd been telling myself for a long time as opposed to, like. Because as soon as I took a step back and went, what do I actually believe in? It was a pretty short list. And I. And I really started to read the Bible and really started to kind of Research and look at it from like an objective perspective and not from like a. Not from like a, you know, a studying for the advancement. It was more like, I want to look at this objectively. Like, this story just like, doesn't even make sense and it's so contradictory at times. And I was like, but in the Christian faith, like, the Bible is. Is concrete. Like, there are no variations. Like, it is what it is what it is. You know, Old Testament, New Testament, like, no vary, no variation. It's all true. And I was like, but is it? And I just really started to, like, question that for a very long time. And it was sort of like it was. It wasn't like an. It wasn't an overnight thing, you know, it was. It was several years of just like, learning more about the universe and learning more about, like. I just didn't want to spend my whole life focusing on the next thing. And I wanted to invest in the people currently because I saw so much of that when I was younger of people being sort of slighted or disappearing from our lives. And I didn't want that to happen. I wanted to be a positive energy. And I think that that's kind of what I really sort of gleaned to.

I love that. What I was going to ask is, do you have any stuff that's like, remain, you know, Like, I still kind of have like a fear of hell that.

Oh, for sure. Oh, yeah, yeah. So my wife and I were like, just goofing off at the house a few weeks ago, and she was like, trying to do a bit with me, and she was like. She was like, what's your greatest fear? Like, trying to get me to say, like, losing you. And I just went. I just went that hell's real and I've been wrong all this time. And she was like, like, you're supposed to say losing me. Yeah, that too. Also that. But I was like, yeah, that's my, like, biggest fear is I was like, oh, what if I'm. What if I'm wrong? Like, what if I've just like, built this insul. Insular mentality much like Christianity? It's like, how do you know? Like, like, I really struggle with that? Hell less so. Because, like, hell was. Hell wasn't like a big thing that was sort of preached.

Luckies. You're both so lucky.

Yeah, I don't mean to brag.

Yeah, you're bragging.

I don't think I'm going. But no, like, that wasn't like a big thing. It was kind of a thing. When I was younger, when we were in Baltimore at Belvedere Baptist Church. But it really started to kind of go away. It was less about this afterlife thing and it was more about communing and being more in touch currently. It wasn't like, you're going to hell. You're going to hell. You're going to hell, you know, not fire and brimstone. Yeah. But like, that's definitely something that I hold on to, is like, ooh, but what, what if I'm wrong?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had that for a while. I don't anymore.

Really?

Yeah.

How'd you get rid of it?

But I also, you know, in Mormonism, hell isn't really. There's not really a traditional. But it does. Like, it almost didn't matter because I thought sex was such a. A big sin that I still thought that I like, basically thought I was going to hell. Which is so weird because it's like, oh, yeah, it's just the lowest tier of heaven. But the lowest tier of heaven means you don't get to like, be with your family in the afterlife. Yeah. So it might as well be. You know what I mean?

That's the interesting thing that, like, I'm so curious about your experience with this is because like, like there weren't like, it was more organic to us that there weren't like strict systems of like this part of heaven and then this part of heaven. It was like, like when I would ask somebody in the church, or I'd ask my dad, or I'd ask my mom, like, what does heaven even mean? They would describe it as like being permanently in the presence of God. And I was like, the fuck does that mean?

Right?

Like, could you be more specific? Like, is there a building? Is it a planet? You know?

Right, right.

Yeah. Because I didn't have that. So I'm like, Even the lack of structure was confusing.

Well, I'm sure.

And the two by twos. Heaven was going to just be a never ending church service.

Oh my God, that's hell.

That sounds like hell.

Extremely boring. But also it was like, you're not gonna have a body and you're not gonna know your family there. Because if you knew your family there, then you would know who was missing. Because there's gonna be a lot of people missing. Because the two by twos are very.

Much sad that heaven doesn't sound fun at all.

And then hell was just like. Some people, you know, joke around about like, oh, yeah, all my friends will be in hell. I'd rather be there. No Two by two. Hell is like you're by yourself for eternity. Burning alive. So that. That was.

I want the good place part of hell if that's where I end up going. Yeah, yeah.

There was no. There was no good place part of hell. It was just, like, very traumatizing. A place where even heaven sounded horrible.

Yeah, that's a. Lose, lose.

Yeah. Bad options.

That's why, like, sometimes the two by two is really just. I'm like, damn, what's the good part?

Yeah, how do they recruit? How do they get. Hey, you know what's great about nothing? Well, I gotta know what that's all about.

Yeah, they're not recruiting all that.

That's like, when somebody's like, come see my friend do improv. And I'm like, is it in a big theater? They're like, no, it's 10 people in.

A room in a backyard.

Great. That sounds fantastic.

That is exactly how I would describe the two by twos, actually. It's just like a generationally passed curse.

Oh, no.

Yeah, that sounds awful. Across the board.

Thanks. Anyway, enough about me. So, like, but do you find that in your daily life you've been able to kind of refocus. Re. Realign? Is there hope for people?

Absolutely. Yeah. It's taken a really long time, and it's. It's been a consistent process of reframing, you know, things that I was taught or things that I learned to. To sort of, like, form my own identity. That's taken a long time to kind of like. Because so much of your identity is ingrained in the church and ingrained in that system that, like. Like, I spent a really long time sort of, like, unraveling that and then like, winding up like, well, who am I? Like, what do I believe and what do I not believe? What do I want? What do I not want?

Like, what does unraveling look like? Is that like, just finding things you're interested in and following it?

Some. Some of that. Absolutely. Some of that, yeah. Like. Like, I'm constantly, like, hearing people, like, hearing friends, like, talk about, like, oh, like, you know, my brother or my cousin showed me this, like, movie when I was really young. Or, like, I listened to this band when I was really young, and it was like, I had to discover all that, like, later because I was so limited on what I was allowed to do and what I was allowed to listen to and allowed to, like, my. I wanted. I wanted to have the Eiffel 65 album, which is I'm Blue and my Dad. I gave it. I Had to give it to him to go downstairs in our basement in Baltimore to listen to the whole album and read the lyrics to make sure it was okay. And he still didn't let me have it because there was a song. The whole album, though. Oh, the whole album.

There's some naughty lyrics on that album.

Song called your clown. And he was like, you don't want to be anybody's clown. Stop.

Yeah, okay. So, like.

But, like, so finding my identity, like, finding the things that I, like, am passionate about or things that I love or learning about the universe or learning about other religions, that's sort of where I am right now, is just sort of, like, trying to educate myself more on other religions. Just something that, like, I was so nudged away from when I was younger to, like, even, like, even be curious about. And so, you know, I was. I was nudged away from that. And so, like, now, you know, in my 30s, I'm just like. I don't know a lot about, like, Hindu or. Or Islam or Judaism or Buddhism. Like, just, like, things I want to discover. Like, I'm in this discovery phase that I think is really. That's, like, very exciting.

Knowledge is power.

Yeah, I read that on a poster in a library once.

I mean, that's an amazing journey. And. Yeah. You work in horror films?

Yeah, yeah. Horror and thriller and action movies. I produce a lot of action, horror and thriller movies.

Talk about, you know, something that I'm sure was probably like, no, you can't. Horror movie just, you know, I would.

Love to talk about this. Yeah, I was. Because demons were real and Satan was real and hell was real. Like, that horror, anything even remotely scary horrified me for a very long time.

I bet.

Like, until I was, like, 14, I think. 14 or 15, I watched my first horror movie, which was it? Freddy versus Jason.

Oh, okay. Hilarious.

Which taught me. I was like, oh, horror movies can be funny and they're fun. Like, is that what this is all about? Like, oh, my God. And that just cracked my brain open, you know, And I started watching everything. But, like, it is so interesting because, like, you know, I. I learned how to make short films. I learned how to edit, like, in the church. Like, my first job. I got my first job when I was 15 years old with a production company that was owned by a member of the church. I would come and work with him after school, and he would. And he taught me how to edit, and he taught me how to use a camera. And, like, anytime I get a new job or anytime I book, like, a big thing or, like, you know, like, I got a movie into south by like, I text him. I always text him because, like, I'm just like, I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you, you know, but like, you know, it was like in the church, they were like, you're going to use this for like, for like, for the word of the Lord, you know, for the longest time. They're like, you're going to use this and you're going to be a prophet to. Oh, my God. That was.

You're. I make movies about killing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. There was a prophecy told over my mom when she was pregnant with me that I was going to be a prophet to the nation of Africa.

Excuse me.

Yeah. And that was printed on like, that was like calligraphy. They use calligraphy on a scroll. On a scroll. That was in my bedroom for the first like 12 years of my life.

Stop it.

Straight up. Yeah.

Of Africa. Oh, my God.

I went when I was eight with my parents.

Hey, there's still time.

Yeah.

When you were eight, were you like, were you expecting some big thing to happen? Because I was.

No, I was expecting to like, eat candy with like, like a kid who was a missionary who grew up there in, in Niger and.

Crazy.

Yeah. So it was like. It's just so funny how that's shifted so dramatically into like working in genre film, which I love. And like, my mom has only ever seen like, I think like one movie that I've Totally, totally. It's because they're just like too much for her.

Yeah.

She'll always ask me, like, are there a lot of curse words? And I'm like, well, this one. Okay, maybe like, I produced a shark movie like a couple years ago called the Black Demon. And I was like, oh, you can watch this one, mom. Like, it's not that bad. It's PG13. You'll be fine. And she had like, texted me after she watched it and she was like, it was okay. Like there was there was just some foul language that just. I really didn't enjoy.

You need to start dubbing them for.

Her where they're so true. Yeah, oh, sure.

Do you guys ever have to do family friendly versions with no curse?

No.

I mean, I guess we don't have TV anymore.

Just like the distributors, if they sell the TV rights, like, they have to do like a version like that. But that's less and less nowadays.

Yeah. It's not like it's airing on tnt.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's. There's less and less of that. Not in the. Definitely not in the independent space.

Right, right, right.

Yeah. The studios probably have to do that. Yeah.

Well, my dad also doesn't like swearing, and my mom doesn't like scary things, so. Yeah, but they support it.

Same.

They're very supportive. They're very proud. Like, you know, it's. She just won't watch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

My dad will watch them.

That's a beautiful character arc for you all. I feel like, like, yeah, that's. That's a really beautiful thing.

I've. Yeah. I've never felt more close with my parents than I do, like, now, like, going through. I think really, it really started when my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and, like, going through that process, and I moved in with them for a little while to help take care of her because my dad also had an emergency quadruple bypass.

Oh, my God.

So they were both, like. My mom was in chemo and my dad was recovering.

Oh, my God.

So I went home and I, like, took care of them during COVID for a while. And, like, that just sort of, like, started this process where, like, we just became so much closer and, like, more based in just our relationship as a family and less about, like, the church, which just felt like it was such a big part of it for a really long time.

Oh, that's so beautiful.

Yeah. What a silver lining.

Yeah, totally.

Do you have anything you would like to. You direct people toward?

Okay, there's a couple of things I highly recommend reading. That essay upon this Rock by John Jeremiah Sullivan. You can find it online. GQ published it, or it's in his book Pulp Head. I'm always pushing this book because I think it's incredible. And his wife was one of my professors in college, and so I got to, like, interview him when I was in college. Upon this Rock is. Is. Is pretty incredible. Oh, my God. Yeah. If you haven't seen it, and I feel like it's fairly popularized now, but, like, the documentary Jesus Camp.

Oh, yeah.

Is like, if I ever wanted to, like, explain to somebody, like, what it was like, kind of being indoctrinated at a very young age, like, I point them to Jesus camp, like, nine times out of 10, because I'm like, it nails it. I'm like, that's what it was like to go to church camp. That's what it was like to go to creation or summer conference or spending all this time with, like, various, like, youth pastors. Like, that's exactly what it was like.

Right?

Like, fully full stop. It's great.

And Any movie. Do you guys have any movies on the horizon?

Yeah, I have a movie called Descendant that's premiering at south by that'll probably be out later this year.

Do you want me to look on your IMDb Pro?

No, that's the only one I want to promote for now. Oh, yeah.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, I have other stuff, but like, yeah, Descendant is premiering at south by and that'll probably be out later this year.

Amazing. Well, thanks for joining us, Caleb, and sharing your story.

Thanks for having me. This was fun and therapeutic.

That's what we like.

Interesting. All in one.

That's the goal.

That is the goal. Thank you, Caleb.

Thank you.

All right, y'.

All.

Well, Megan's voice is pretty shot, so we are not gonna further comment on this episode.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We're not gonna further subject your ears to my voice.

[Trust Me Podcast]

But. But major thanks to Caleb for coming on. Coming on a podcast when that's not something you do a lot is always stressful and we appreciate it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, thank you, Caleb. You're amazing.

[Trust Me Podcast]

So as always, remember I'm saying Megan's part. Please, Lola, take it away to follow your gu. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delamater with special.

Thanks to Stacy Pera.

And our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

You can find us on Instagram @TrustMe podcast, Twitter usmecultpod or on TikTok at.

I'm Ooh Lalola on Instagram and Olalola on Twitter.

And I am MeganElizabeth11 on Instagram and.

[Lola Blanc]

Babraham Hicks on Twitter.

[Trust Me Podcast]

Remember to rate and review and spread the word.

[J]

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