Jonathan Hirsch, Part 1 - A Guru, a Compound, and the Cult of Adi Da

Summary

Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode: Jonathan Hirsch, Part 1 - A Guru, a Compound, and the Cult of Adi Da
Air Date: January 21, 2026
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth
Guest: Jonathan Hirsch (podcaster, author, and survivor of the Adi Da cult)

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Episode Overview

This episode launches a two-part conversation with Jonathan Hirsch, journalist and creator of the "Dear Franklin Jones" podcast, who grew up as a child in the cult of New Age guru Franklin Jones, later known as Adi Da. Through anecdotes and observations, Jonathan describes the eclectic, shifting doctrine of the group, his parents’ journey into and within Adi Da’s world, and the psychological impact of growing up in a high-control environment. The conversation delves into the group’s constantly mutating beliefs, the power of recorded teachings, the insidious word salad of cult doctrine, taboo sexual practices, and the isolating experience of being a “cult kid.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Many Names and Faces of Adi Da's Cult

Timestamps: 13:33–16:32

• The cult was known by multiple names: eventually “Adi Dham,” with the leader adopting dozens of aliases, including Franklin Jones, Da Free John, Bubba Free John, and Ruchira Avatar Adi Da Samraj.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “He was born Franklin Jones...then became Da Free John and then Bubba Free John…I’m going to butcher the order…he basically created variations on D quite a bit.” (14:05)
• His ever-more Byzantine names paralleled the increasingly convoluted group doctrine, shifting from accessible talk to impenetrable jargon.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “The words he wrote, they went from conversational English to some kind of cuneiform symbology…Even the people within the group would have to refer to scholars.” (15:19)

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2. Who Was Franklin Jones / Adi Da?

Timestamps: 16:17–18:10

• An ordinary man from Queens, NY, Jones radiated a mysterious, hypnotic energy—often cited by followers as a key part of his allure.
  • Quote (Lola): “He does have a very interesting face...there’s just something interesting about his face.” (16:17)
  • Quote (Jonathan): “There was a sort of hypnotic effect to the way that he would engage…Like, even the way...your followers would sit in front of the teacher…[believed] that Franklin Jones…was actually physically an incarnation of God.” (16:32)
• His followers accepted his claim to be a living incarnation of God, and after his death rationalized that, while his physical form would die, his consciousness persisted as the cosmic Self.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “His followers believed…that he was actually physically an incarnation of God.” (17:14)
  • Quote (Jonathan): “The belief was that his physical body would die, but that he was what immortality is, if that makes sense...when you die and you're reabsorbed into this...it's actually Franklin Jones that you're reabsorbing into.” (17:36)

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3. Jonathan’s Parents: Why They Joined

Timestamps: 18:19–24:35

• Both were classic post-60s seekers. His Hungarian father was a refugee, early adopter of psychedelics, and a spiritual searcher. His mother, after a conventional Midwestern upbringing, lived a decade in Nepal, studied acupuncture, and sought meaning beyond suburbia.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “They are both a window into the kind of people that would have joined...also, I just think a good window into the kinds of people who were exploring different ways of being in the 1960s into the 70s.” (18:24)
• They met during a “New Age meet-cute” at a gathering for another guru, Rama (Frederick Lenz), then migrated to the Adi Da group, drawn by the promise of deeper spiritual fulfillment.

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4. Entrance via Tapes, Not Direct Contact

Timestamps: 33:07–36:29

• Contrary to stereotypes, most followers—including Jonathan’s parents—interfaced only through tapes of Adi Da’s teachings rather than direct contact.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “He appeared and disappeared...for long stretches of time, in part because he had so much property.” (33:07)
  • Quote (Jonathan): “Most of his followers, even the ones that did encounter him physically, many people went their entire lives being in this group and never physically seeing this man.” (36:01)
• The group’s sense of specialness and truth was amplified by this distance; Adi Da's voice became an object of near-mystical fixation.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “Talk about what a, like, entrancing world to be in—you hear this guy's voice and his laughter and his words, and he's promising all of these things.” (35:18)

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5. The Doctrine: Ever-Changing, Ever-Confusing

Timestamps: 37:52–41:40

• The central tenet was essentially a Westernized version of non-dualism (“Advaita”), camouflaged with shifting vocabulary and claims of unique revelation through Adi Da himself.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “The fundamental message was rooted in this idea of non-dualism...you see in Buddhism and in Hinduism...that we are basically all little molecules...one organism, one consciousness.” (37:54)
• However, Jonathan’s producer named these shifting explanations “word salad.” Deliberate ambiguity and jargon fostered confusion, dependency, and control.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “Trying to define the group was always very difficult...The words...would always use to describe it were word salad.” (40:33)
  • Quote (Lola): “Word salad is a key function of a cult leader’s doctrine...the more ambiguous, the more the goalposts can move...” (41:05)

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6. Manipulation, Indoctrination & Abuse

Timestamps: 41:41–51:12

• As with many cults, the ambiguous doctrine and manipulative “considerations” often led to deeply abusive scenarios—chiefly sexual exploitation orchestrated by Adi Da.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “There were...drug-fueled parties...referred to as considerations...the idea was that a select group of followers were privately partying with Jones...Sexual experimentation happened during that time.” (47:07)
  • Quote (Jonathan): “He was manipulating those scenarios...pairing people up, people who were married having to have sex with other people...” (47:32)
  • The justification: dismantling the ego through “breaking attachments,” all for claimed spiritual benefit.
• Group living often involved compounds in rural California, Hawaii, and even on an island in Fiji, with families split and strong social pressure for loyalty and self-suppression.

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7. Growing Up “Cult Kid”: Isolation and Identity

Timestamps: 51:12–58:21, 59:35–62:08

• Jonathan’s life was shaped by being on the periphery—not wholly “in” the group at first, but always marked by difference from peers, secrecy, and a strong sense of otherness.
  • Quote (Jonathan): “It took me a very long time to feel at home in the world...making Dear Franklin Jones was a step...of asserting for myself...that my story...existed within our cultural narratives.” (56:16)
• The boundary between the “safe” group and the “outside world” created lasting difficulties in trust and social belonging—a common thread among “cult kids.”
  • Quote (Jonathan): “There was a lot of masking...I wouldn't talk about what happened inside my home...Making Dear Franklin Jones was a step in the direction of asserting, for myself, what I wanted for the remainder of my life.” (56:16)

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8. Word Salad, Language, and Critical Realizations

Timestamps: 42:11–44:41

• A particularly poignant anecdote involves a former follower who, tasked with translating Jones’s doctrine into French, realized that the words were ultimately meaningless—an epiphany that helped her leave.
  • Quote (Lola): “She talks about...translating his books into French...and she was like, ‘this doesn't mean anything.’” (42:24)
• Similarly, other survivors found that exposure to the doctrine in another language or after significant life changes enabled critical evaluation and, ultimately, exit from the group.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Jonathan Hirsch, regarding Adi Da's shifting names and method:
  “He basically created variations on D quite a bit. And then later, it started to have quite complicated names, like Ruchira, Avatar, Adi Da Samraj.” (14:15)
• On the group's confusion and language:
  “The words...went from conversational English to some kind of cuneiform symbology...Even the people within the group would have to refer to scholars.” (15:19)
• On doctrine and leadership:
  “Jones was under a pretty significant amount of public pressure...there was controversy...He was on the front page...coercing his followers, manipulating them, in some cases, allegedly assaulting them.” (33:40)
• On the use of tapes as indoctrination:
  “You hear this guy's voice and his laughter and his words, and he’s promising all of these things...It’s quite a fantasy you can build up in your head about who this person is.” (35:18)
• Lola Blanc, examining cults and language:
  “Word salad is a key function of a cult leader’s doctrine...the more ambiguous, the more the goalposts can move.” (41:05)
• Meagan Elizabeth, on translation as an awakening:
  “This woman translating it to French...actually had critical thinking built in and was like, ‘What the fuck is this shit?’” (44:05)
• Jonathan, on being “cult kids” and outsider identity:
  “There's this quiet community of us...where your life is so distinctly different than the experience of other people as to be unbridgeable. That's a very difficult feeling.” (59:35)

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Memorable & Emotional Moments

• Discussion of living with a life-size cardboard cutout of Adi Da in the family home, meditating on it as if he were present. (54:57)
• Jonathan’s reflections on always being “on the outskirts,” both within the cult and outside it, and his yearning for a sense of normalcy and relatable identity. (56:16)
• The story of parents being told to become computer programmers—and failing, leading them from one guru to the next. (28:05)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [13:33] – Introduction of Adi Da, his aliases, and the cult’s names
• [16:32] – Discussion of Jones's physical appearance and persona
• [18:19] – Jonathan’s parents’ backgrounds and “New Age meet-cute”
• [33:07] – Paradox of the remote guru: tapes as indoctrination
• [37:52] – Nonduality, word salad, and moving doctrinal goalposts
• [41:41] – Manipulation, sexual abuse, and the “considerations”
• [51:12]/[59:35] – Growing up in the group, isolation, and aftermath
• [42:11] – A follower’s realization via translation, and broader language issues

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Tone and Style

The conversation is characterized by directness, dark humor, and empathy. Lola and Meagan draw on their own experiences in cults, trading jokes (“Skullet Man,” “the gall of this man!”) while probing serious themes: isolation, manipulation, trauma, and awakening.

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Conclusion & Next Episode

This Part 1 episode ends with a promise to delve deeper into Jonathan’s personal journey of leaving the group and its aftermath in Part 2.

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For listeners, this episode offers a compassionate, firsthand glimpse into the psychological experience and machinations of a New Age cult—and the ongoing process of reclaiming one’s narrative afterward.

Transcript

[Lola Blanc]

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[Jonathan Hirsch]

Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year.

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[Jonathan Hirsch]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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[Lola Blanc]

Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees extra speeds may 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy See terms There's a.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Fire inside you you can't ignore.

[Lola Blanc]

Stand still.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Not a chance.

[Lola Blanc]

You're a lifelong learner who's come this far.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Now we are here to help you keep going further. Capella University what can't you do? Visit capella.edu to learn more.

[Lola Blanc]

Trust me.

[Lowes Announcer]

Do you trust me?

[Lola Blanc]

Would I ever lead you astray?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust me.

[Lowes Announcer]

This is the truth.

[Julian Edelman]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome Welco welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cult extreme belief and manipulation from two hippies who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And today is part one of our interview with Jonathan Hirsch, podcaster, producer and author and friend of the show, who grew up in a cult led by New Age guru Franklin Jones, also known as Adi Da. In this week's episode, he's going to tell us how his parents met while in their spirituality and psychedelics era, ultimately happening into Franklin Jones's group, and how many of Jones's followers were indoctrinated just through listening to his tapes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

At first, we always come back to the tapes. On this podcast we'll discuss the group's constantly changing belief system, one follower's fascinating experience, seeing the doctrine differently once she had to translate it into another language, and what it was like growing up on the cult's compound as a child.

[Lola Blanc]

And next week, we will get deeper into Jonathan's personal experiences, being in and then, of course, leaving the cult. A lot of what we talk about today, he gets into even more on the podcast he made about this experience called Dear Franklin Jones. And he also wrote a book that also includes these topics called the Mind is Burning. But before we get into it with him, so much to talk about. Megan, please tell me your cultiest thing of this week.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, fine.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Please. Okay, so this. This podcast, we record and then it gets released later. So I know some people might be like, wow, hot. Take this happened forever ago, but still, it's culty and we're going to talk about it. And it's kind of more light. Well, actually, it's.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's kind of dark. I don't know. You tell me.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Mom groups, right?

[Lola Blanc]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You were saying you're not very aware of them.

[Lola Blanc]

Like groups of friends where.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, no, it's like, let's say you get pregnant, you'll go to maybe. I don't know if they're still called Lamaze classes, but some sort of class where you'll meet 10 other women who are also at your same term of pregnancy, and you'll say, let's start a group chat, and you'll start sending, you know, symptoms, fears, products. I've just witnessed my friends who've become pregnant join these group chats that become their mom group that become. I mean, my. My friends would run me over with a car before giving up their mom group rightfully. It's like they are each other's lifeline and tether to this experience. That's one of the hardest things a person can go through. They get this kind of community that becomes very important to them. Can that turn culty? Hmm.

[Lola Blanc]

Hmm.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sometimes. So I've seen several articles where this has gone bad. I've, of course, in real life, experienced, you know, one mom going rogue. The drama, whatever. But it's taken on a whole new level with Ashley Tisdale publicly calling out her mom group.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, shit. Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And saying that she's been left out of things. This is the way I read it. She was at. She was actually invited to a dinner party, and she was sat away from the other moms, like, what I imagined to be like more with the children. Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And her mom group includes Hilary Duff, Mandy Moore, so. Yeah. So then Ashley Tisdale did this story with the cut about, you know, being left out of her mom group, and Having to leave her mom group.

[Lola Blanc]

This is insane that this is a news story, but. Okay, go on.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So Hillary Duff's husband claps back and he. He makes a picture with a fake headline reading, when you're the most self absorbed, toned up person on earth, other moms tend to shift focus to their actual toddlers.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is. Okay. Okay. So now I'm just getting into Hollywood gossip and veering out of. Out of the cult realm. But there is something to be said when you are vulnerable, which you are when you're a new mother and you're forming relationships that are much deeper than normal relationships because you're going through, let's call it what it is, trauma as well as love at the same time. Like. But being a new mom's very traumatic, and sometimes it can go bad. So I don't know. That's my cultiest thing. I'm just. I would love to do a whole episode on somebody who gets involved in a toxic mom. And some of them are great, and some of them are great.

[Lola Blanc]

Of course they are. Group chats are like, can go in every direction of good or bad. This seems like the perfect example of our previous guest Renee Diresta's the term that she used. Pseudo events.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

News stories that absolutely should not be in the news. Like, none of us should know this.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lola, do you know where I'm reading this from?

[Lola Blanc]

Where?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Cnn.

[Lola Blanc]

Cnn. Stop.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

There's like, literally. We're like, literally descending into authoritarianism. But it's important to know about Ashley Tisdale's mom group.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Mandy Moore might be mean. There's no way I'm missing you like candy.

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know. I love Mandy Moore. I loved this is Us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I remember driving in my first car, listening to the song I'm missing you like candy on a tape so good. And thinking there's no way. I also felt this way about I get knocked down and I get up again. That Chumbawamba song where I was like, there's no way I will ever like a song as much as I like these two songs ever again in my life. And the verdict is incorrect. I've liked other songs more.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm shocked. I'm shocked to hear that. Great songs. Both. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Mom groups. I mean, because, Lola, I'm just. I'm just gonna add one more thing. They're not just on text groups. Like, my mom friends are meeting up with these women regularly in life, and there is drama. And if you. If you get somebody who's like, maybe like, I'm Selling a new oil for babies. Like, it can turn weird.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. This is like the perfect segue into my Culties thing, though.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Perfect. So what's yours?

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, so I read this article on good housekeeping.com.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, wow. I didn't know you were a subscriber.

[Lola Blanc]

I just Google cult sometimes. Okay.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, we're trying not to use Google as much anymore, but anyway, this woman, Anna Stothard, she is an author. She has a book coming out, but she wrote this article about how when she was a new mom with identical twin babies and she was getting, like, zero sleep, she said the most amount of sleep she was getting at a time was like 40 minutes. While she's raising these twin babies, she goes on Instagram to try. Like, she's panicked. She's losing her mind. She's completely sleep deprived and feeling just, like, scared she's gonna kill the baby, you know, like, as moms do. And she finds an Instagram guru. Of course, she finds a man on Instagram who is like, a wellness guy who's also advising on how to grow your vegetables. Talking about the frequency of gratitude, how pain is just resistance to the present moment. And of course, she's exhausted and desperate for answers. So she starts, you know, heeding his advice and, like, viewing him as a spiritual leader. And then over time, he's sliding into her DMs, he's telling her what to do, and. And then he lives, like, in another country, I believe. He sends her a picture of a park near her house and starts, like, fucking stalking her, this man who had become her guru. And she's like, fortunately, I didn't spend the money that he wanted me to spend, but I was so vulnerable due to this state of, like, interesting sleep deprived motherhood, which I just have never thought about before.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's a event that disrupts your entire reality.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And everybody just thinks of it as good, which it is. But also it's, you know, you're very tired.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot going on. To be clear, neither of us are moms.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We don't know, but don't know. And I'm still very close friends with my friends who are moms, and I do try to go watch their kids at least once a week. I try.

[Lola Blanc]

You do? Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I mean by myself, but my friends are there, but, like, they're watching TV or something and I'm, like, playing with them, you know, Like, I try.

[Lola Blanc]

That's not what. Watching kids.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm playing play. D'oh. My friend's watching a TV show in a different room. But like, it can't replace an actual mom bonding. So like, there's just a vulnerability there if that other person happens to be whatever. And in your case, maybe it's not a mom, but it's a person offering a solution. Mm.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Mm.

[Lola Blanc]

We should probably try to have her on. Learn a little bit more about that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'd love to have her on. And if anybody wants me to babysit their children and just buy me food and basically watch Real Housewives with me and I can call it babysitting. Let me know.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh boy. All right. Should we talk to Jonathan? Let's do it.

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[Tara Davis Woodhull]

Hey, this is US Olympic gold medalist.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Tara Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[Hunter Woodhull]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

So when it came to getting the.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

PennyMac is is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and.

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[Lola Blanc]

Welcome, Jonathan Hirsch, to Trust Me.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Thank you for having me.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you so much for being here. We have, like, 100 things we want to talk to you about, but we're going to start with.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Just one. And by just one, I mean there's so much to talk about with that one thing, which is the cult that you grew up in.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The one and only. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

First of all, what was the name of this cult?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So it had a lot of different names over the years. It ultimately became known as Adi Dham. But it really, you know, it changed not only the name of the group over the years, but also the spiritual teacher, guru himself.

[Lola Blanc]

Name changed?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, dozens of times.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, dozens.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Dozens of times.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I thought it was like three.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Oh, no, there was. Well, he was born Franklin Jones.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And then he became Da Free John and then Bubba Free John. So forgive me, I'm going to butcher the order because I don't really keep the chronology of his names in my.

[Lola Blanc]

Head too much anymore.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's been years.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's dead. He can't get mad at you.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Da Kolki, Da Avadhuta. He basically created variations on D quite a bit. And then later it started to have quite complicated names, like Ruchira, Avatar, Adi da Samraj.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He was, like, going the opposite of Prince. Remember when Prince became just a, like, movement?

[Lola Blanc]

What?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Prince the artist.

[Lola Blanc]

But what do you. He became a movement.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Remember this when he became like, a sign. Oh.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He was like, I'm simplifying it. This man was like, I'm making it more complicated.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's actually a really interesting observation about him because you see this person in the 1970s becoming a sort of hippie spiritualist guru type. Not uncommon for the time. Just sort of a friend, literally. Bubba. Like your friend Bubba John or whatever. The sort of variation is there to something much more complicated, Byzantine. And reading the words he wrote, they went from conversational English to some kind of cuneiform symbology. Like, there was just so much complicated language in there that if you read some of the books that he wrote before he died, you can barely understand them. And even the people within the group would have to sort of refer to scholars to like, wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Well, for our purposes, he is Franklin Jones, but on Wikipedia, it's Adi Doc. Most people would probably Know him as Adi Da.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Exactly, that's correct.

[Lola Blanc]

And photos of this guy. Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He's a character.

[Lola Blanc]

Full blown Skullet. Bald on the top, completely long hair in the back.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I have never heard that phrase before, but that nails it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But most importantly, white as the day is long.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is just a Queens, New York man.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Just a guy from a blue collar neighborhood in Queens.

[Lola Blanc]

But he does have a very, like, interesting face. Like, there's something about his eyes that's like very sort of. He looks like he'd be a movie character. There's just something interesting about his face, which I. Yeah, that look, I imagine, contributed to something. Some kind of aura about him.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Definitely. And there was a sort of hypnotic effect to the way that he would engage, like eye contact with people, for example.

[Lola Blanc]

Of course.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You know, so it was like, even the way that I'm sure your listeners have like, some familiarity with kind of how these sort of guru relationships might work. But, you know, your followers would sit in front of the teacher or guru. And it was believed, at least in the group that I was raised in, that Franklin Jones or Adi Da. I oftentimes refer to him as Franklin Jones because he's a human being who, like the rest of us, lived and, you know, in his case, died. We will never die. No, never in this circle of life.

[Lola Blanc]

Not doing that.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, I'm out. I opted out, actually. I'm so glad that I did. Paid a little bit more on the front end, but sure, sure. Yes. Paying dividends. But his followers believed, as my parents believed, that he was actually physically an incarnation of God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So immortal. Was that any. Was that a part of this when he died? Were people like what?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I think the belief was that his physical body would die, but that he was what immortality is, if that makes sense. So when you die and you're reabsorbed into this universal consciousness, it's actually Franklin Jones that you're reabsorbing yourself into.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, Skullet.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. Man.

[Lola Blanc]

Skullet Man.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I can't wait to be absorbed into Franklin Jones, the Skullet Man.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm pretty obsessed with him. I'm not gonna lie to you. Like, the gall of this man. He is something else.

[Lola Blanc]

He is gullful.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's just so.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I love all the new vocab that you're introducing.

[Lola Blanc]

I just made that one up.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I like that.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, but tell us a little bit about your parents and how they discovered him.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I think they are both a window into the kind of people that would have joined Franklin Jones group. And they're also, I just think, a good window into the kinds of people who were exploring different ways of being in the 1960s into the 70s. You know, my father was a Hungarian immigrant who fled the war during the Hungarian uprising. In the 1950s, he arrived here in the United States, like a lot of Hungarians, as a refugee, he built a life. He had a first marriage that did not work out so well. And then he met my mom. He met my mom when he had already moved to Los Angeles and started exploring psychedelics in the form of acid and other things. And he also was exploring alternative forms of spirituality. He felt like there was something more to life than what he was being afforded. And I think the drugs were an access point for him. Like so many people in the late 60s and 70s. You know, acid literally, like, turn on, tune in, drop out. That phrase that was promoted in that era. This idea that, like, you need to step out of society to see something bigger than what everybody else sees. And whatever that is, it's not what's being offered within the traditional confines of the society. And so he was a seeker. He was a spiritual seeker. And my mom, in many ways, was on the other end of the spectrum of that same kind of spiritual journey that so many Americans in particular were on. When the social fabric was fraying in the late 60s, when the Vietnam War was creating all this civil unrest, when the civil rights movement was showing us that we do not live in the picket, white fence, Eisenhower society, that we think we do, that it is a lot nastier out there. It just depends on where you center the point of view. And so I think for my mom, she was also in search of something that looked bigger than the kind of like 9 to 5 suburban life that she was raised in. She ended up living in Nepal for a decade and got into acupuncture, became an acupuncturist, and moved back to the San Francisco Bay area in the 1980s. And was also, you know, by that token, into some of this New Agey stuff and spirituality and Buddhism she'd been exposed to when she was living in the East. And the two of them found themselves at a meditation of another guru.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. There were so many, though, at that time. I mean.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. So again, to the point that it just. It. This stuff was in the ether. And if you were living in San Francisco in the 1980s, you might wander into a, you know, alternative bookstore and find this stuff in the back. In fact, in Marin county, where they lived for most of my adult life, the New Age bookstore, the alternative Bookstore used to be a Franklin Jones group owned bookstore for the group before the parties, as far as I knew, defected and then like took the bookstore.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, wow.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So, you know, warring New Agers. But anyway, back to the story. In the 1980s, my parents meet after they had seen flyers around town for this spiritual teacher who went by the name Rama or Frederick Lenz. I don't know if he's ever been covered on Trust Me, but he was again, one of these, like hippie spiritualist kind of guru types who like, wore leather jackets and played in a rock band called Zazen. And he was just again, a well educated white guy from the northeast who was presenting a sort of synthesized version, a pop psychology version of more like ascetic, Eastern philosophical traditions.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Sign me up. Unfortunately, I'm in.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You're in?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm in.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I mean, he's pretty. I mean, he was his own kind of charming, fascinating, charismatic figure. And I think something that Rama and Franklin Jones shared was this charisma and way of talking that was quite compelling. I mean, you hear some of the recordings in the podcast that I did about this dear Franklin Jones. You hear recordings of Franklin Jones and you're like, I think some people feel un. I mean, have told me they've felt unnerved when they hear it. Like, it doesn't. He's like, really intense. But then other people are like, wow, he's just. He has a way of talking.

[Lola Blanc]

I hear both.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I hear that's a good point that we'll get into in a minute. But like, his laugh is very.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. Booming.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Your mom on your podcast. Cause you interview your parents on the podcast and your mom talks about this, like, laugh. And I was like, how booming of a laugh could it be? And then you play him laughing and I'm like, oh, it's booming.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, it's very booming. I know people say that it's like, oh, person had a laughter that filled up the room. It's like, yeah. I mean, you don't know what it fills up the room with. It could be tear gas or something else, but it definitely occupies the space, you know, And I do think for people who were looking for this person to occupy their space, which, if I look at my parents critically, I believe that they were looking for something to fulfill them.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Rather than maybe addressing some of the traumatic features of their life. And here they meet each other and their relationship is fraught for precisely the same reasons, though they were together for a couple of decades. But in those days, everything was on the upswing you know, it was like we met this guru, he's really fascinating. They literally were in line and they bumped into each other.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's a meet cute.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's a real. It's like the most new age meet cute you've ever heard of. The story goes that my dad was in like an all white outfit and my mom turned around and said either you're a pimp or a limousine driver, but either way I like it.

[Lola Blanc]

What a line.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Possibly the funniest thing she's ever said. But yeah, they were two very unlikely people who were brought together by their shared desire to find what they perceived to be some bigger truth.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

So how did they go from the first guru to Franklin Jones?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, so they got involved with. With Rama. And in the early days of Rama's group. I also did a documentary about Rama later after this. And so I've learned quite a bit about him over the years. But in the early days, it was a little bit more informal. The people who were involved. He actually delineated between his early phase followers and his later phase followers as, like ST1s and ST2s, as in star Trek.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's a thing. Yeah. I didn't make it up.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I'm just relaying the facts. But they were ST1s. And so when the group started to sort of move towards these other practices, which included making all of his followers, his meditation students, as he would have referred to them, become computer programmers.

[Lola Blanc]

Interesting.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And split the revenues, of course. Of their.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Of course.

[Lola Blanc]

For sure. Like, what else would you do?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Natch. Right. That was a point at which my parents, I don't think, had the core competency to become computer programmers.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God. So your parents were like, we can't be programmers. We'll join Franks.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay. I thought it wasn't just that he moved to New. That he just left. I thought for some reason Rama just like, bailed to New York. And your parents were like, well, we gotta find another guy.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He. He did. Ish. He did discourage them from joining, which seeing my parents, I mean, I've. You haven't seen my parents in front of a computer before. I used to joke that my dad, he had this, like, way he didn't have the language to understand computers, so he would like, psychoanalyze them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He'd be like, this motherboard's resisting me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, my God.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Not the. Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You know, so they probably were gently let go in that regard. You know, they just couldn't keep up with the times, you know, and there.

[Lola Blanc]

Were other ways to make money, but.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Listen, I guess they just could not deliver in that regard.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's really interesting. So they got kind of side. Moved into this other group.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

They did. And I mean, to your point, Rama did move to New York, to Westchester county, and that became part of where the group kind of established itself to do this kind of work that they were not qualified to do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Wow. I feel bad talking about my parents in this way.

[Lola Blanc]

But, like, parents are supposed to be bad at technology. That's what they're there for.

[Megan Elizabeth]

They're so lovely. And the interviews, it's just like, they're lovely. I know I'm so bad at technology because how I was raised, we didn't have it, like, in my cult. So, like, I've gone to the Apple Store before, and they've been like, we actually don't know how you've fucked it up this much because we've never seen this before. Like, I've just clicked. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I could say she's exaggerating, but she's really not. Like, some of the most basic things. She's like, how do I do it? I'm like, are you 80 years old?

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's really bad.

[Lola Blanc]

And so, like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, no hate towards your parents. It's just. It is what it is.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And if you're not raised with it, how the fuck are you supposed to know it?

[Lola Blanc]

Also, this was the 80s. Who was doing technology in the 80s.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I mean, he was a visionary, and Rama needed to clearly do some corporate restructuring. So my parents were on the owl.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And your parents both did acupuncture?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes, My mom was. Was that. Was a licensed acupuncturist. My dad was an unlicensed acupuncturist, which, if you knew my dad, would definitely tracks. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I imagine your dad is like, this person. I don't know. I just. I imagine him doing acid and, like, seeing the other side of the fabric of reality being very interesting for him.

[Lola Blanc]

Because he lived, like, a straight, normal, by the book life prior to that. Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He did.

[Lola Blanc]

And he, like, talk. Talks about that moment where he woke up from acid on the podcast. And I was like, wow.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

That's just like, you 180, you do acid. One does acid one time joins a culture. Like, that's crazy.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He definitely felt like he saw something.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, we'll do that, too. And sometimes in good ways. You know, I want to.

[Lola Blanc]

I want to try acid.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Do you? Yeah, I've done shrimps now, so I can't. Yeah, I've done shrimps, too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, I've done acid a lot.

[Lola Blanc]

Children don't listen.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. And we don't have fun.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And it does help. Like.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, somebody from the Two by Twos will be, like, telling me, like, some doctrine, and I'm like, I've gone backwards through time on acid and seen the essence of reality. It's not real, what you're saying, but.

[Lola Blanc]

It can also have the opposite Effect where it drives you into the cult as it did for so many people in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And I think that was sort of the core of it for them was that I think they from different places, saw the limits of their own lives and wanted this bigger philosophy, whether it was because of spiritual exploration, traveling to other cultures. Like, my mom lived a very kind of middle class, midwestern life as a child. She was like, you know, the oldest of seven kids. Like, my grandfather worked really hard, but they had, like, you know, they were Irish Catholic, my grandmother. Like, these were very solid, good people, hardworking people who were not, like, experimenting with, you know, the fabric of reality.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's how my family is, and I.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Love them for that. But it definitely. I think she was looking for something different, and she got it in the form of Franklin Jones. Yeah. Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

So talk to us about what actually happens when they join. Like, how. How are they indoctrinated? What is the, like, system of te Are they interacting with him directly in the beginning?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So, interestingly, I think Jones is kind of a odd character in this way. He appeared and disappeared out of the lives of his followers for long stretches of time, in part because he had so much property.

[Lola Blanc]

What a life.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And before you go on from that, it was really interesting in the podcast that you tried to find people who grew up with him. And people from his high school were like, I don't remember him. Nobody remembered him. He was kind of a random dude. And then to sudd to being a guru who has, like, too much land to even hang out with your followers, that's a wild leap for me.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, absolutely. And you wonder what was motivating that arc. This is just my opinion, but I feel like he was under a pretty significant amount of public pressure right around the time my parents joined, by the way, because of controversy. There were some lawsuits that were threatened. There were. Or some matters that were sort of settled out of court. He was on the front page of the news on the San Francisco Chronicle. And as somebody who was coercing his followers, manipulating them, in some cases, allegedly assaulting them. So that's when my parents thought, this is a great place to bring their kid and raise a family. That must have been what entered in their mind. But they weren't concerned about it. It was almost like they were, you know, immune to the world around them. And it made their search for, like, answers so satisfying with Jones. Cause he offered this community, this world that was kind of outside the boundaries of everything else. It felt special. So in those days, in those early days, they didn't actually meet him or encounter him very much. And I believe that part of the reason for that was Jones kind of tried to step away from the limelight when all of these controversies started to reach the press.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I wonder if I'm not being there made them more attuned to him because they're, like, listening to his tapes. He's not doing anything wrong. All they have is positive tape version of him.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. I mean, talk about what a, like, entrancing world to be. And you hear this guy's voice and his laughter and his words, and he's promising all of these things. He claims to possess these things. You know, it's quite a fantasy you can build up in your head about who this person is and what they do. I mean, meeting him, there was all those expectations. When I was a young person, like, there was. It was very intense.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. It's like an early YouTube guru. I feel like we have that now with these parasocial relationships with all these figures on YouTube and Stuff. But we've had quite a few guests, I feel, who were initially exposed to their cult through tape, through just like long tapes of the guru talking.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

And developing a relationship to them that way initially.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. I mean, it's funny too, most of his followers, even the ones that did encounter him physically, many people went their entire lives being in this group and never physically seeing this man. Wow. Which is kind of wild. You dedicate your life to being in a religion, or he would call a non religion religion, but a religion in the sense that it was an organized religious group.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Putting hairs here. But, you know, oftentimes in these groups, there is an obsession with what they perceive to be accuracy, that somehow, if you, like, said it this exact right way, it didn't make it a religion, or it didn't make it a cult, or it didn't make it something that was dangerous. Right. You just have to explain it to people, which was so painful to write about because you never satisfy these people who want you to say exactly what their guru says about what their group is. Many people were disappointed in me for that. But to your point, the relationship transcended that, you know, that physical relationship. It was much more about what his message was and the way that he said it. And the tapes were a huge part of that. I think it's why I wanted to frame the series around these tapes, because everybody had boxes of them the way my parents did, you know, you know, like back in the 80s and 90s, like when people had cassette tapes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

For those who may not remember, they had, like, big, you know, almost like CD holders.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But they were for tapes. I didn't know that.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Massive. I remember my parents had a few that were like, almost like palettes, you know what I mean? And you'd have all of your tapes in there. I mean, so many tapes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

How many tapes did this band have? Hundreds of, yes. What was the core message if we had to make one up?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It changed over time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But I think the fundamental message was rooted in this idea of non dualism, which you see in Buddhism and in Hinduism. The idea that we construct an image of ourselves in the world as individual people, separate selves. They might have said that is an illusion. And in fact, we are basically like all of us are little, you know, molecules that are part of the whole. One organism, one organism, one consciousness.

[Lola Blanc]

Which is Franklin Jones.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. He'd be like, I'll get there. But yes, yeah. In short, tldr.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, that's Franklin Jones.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But yes, I think so. In the beginning, the idea was he was teaching people how to see that. And that enlightenment was the recognition of the fact that you were one consciousness, that you were undifferentiated from others, that you saw yourself as that, and therefore you no longer suffered the mortal life and pain of being a human or being any kind of sentient creature. You know, in Buddhism, they have this idea that, like, you know, one of the four noble truths. Am I getting that right? Is like, that life is suffering. And so our suffering comes from our ignorance about our own impermanence. So if you recognize that you are a mortal being, except for the three of us, we're immortal. Thank God I signed off on that. But if you recognize that, then you no longer suffer in life, because life is a temporary thing.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So.

[Lola Blanc]

So he's just stealing from Eastern religions, which is what so many of these.

[Megan Elizabeth]

People do, and kind of mash it all up together and stir it in a pot.

[Lola Blanc]

Take a little bit of this, take.

[Megan Elizabeth]

A little bit of that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

My producer on Dear Franklin Jones is an old friend of mine, Ashley Cleek. And I was grateful to have my producer and my editor be friends of mine, because in a way, writing that story was very difficult and very personal. Annie Avilas was my editor, and the two of them would sort of have to wrangle me from trying to, like, reconcile what I wanted to believe even then, from what the reality of the situation was. And to that point, trying to define the group was always very difficult. And its Beliefs were always difficult because I can start to construct this narrative about it, right. Like that it's about non dualism. You see it in these other religions, but then how does he play into it? And then later he becomes this other thing. And the words that Ashley would always use to describe it were word salad. She'd be like, you're in the word salad. It's not making sense anymore. This is word salad. And at first, that process was frustrating for me because I had to redefine my own understanding of a reality that I had, like a philosophy I had inherited from my parents, you know? But I now can see that very clearly.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, that's hard work.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it is.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, this is a tactic that a lot. I mean, I don't even know how many of them are doing it consciously or if it's just they're spewing it out of their mouth. But, like, word salad is a key feature. It's a key function of a cult leader's doctrine so much of the time. Because if you understand it, then you don't need to go to them to try to understand it. Like, the more ambiguous and confusing it is, the more the goalposts can move and the more you're able to control people. Like my. The guy that I grew up with, his shit changes every year. He has a totally new thing every.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Year, New Year's Eve, he just writes new rules. That's his resolution.

[Lola Blanc]

And it's completely different. Like, it'll be religious one year and it'll be sci fi another year, and it'll be political another year. Like, it literally completely changes. And then if you actually read it, it is fully word salad. But, like, if you're not reading it closely, it might seem like, oh, interesting language. He must know some things. But, like, when you actually start to break it down, it means nothing. And there's something in your podcast, a woman you interviewed, Tanya, who talks about how she stopped believing. This was before your parents time, right?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

I thought it was so fascinating because she talks about how she and another woman had to translate his books into French, which meant she had to actually look at the language and analyze it. And she was like, this doesn't mean anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

This is nonsense.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. If you have to translate something, you have to actually break down what the words mean. And breaking. It was so interesting that that was what, like, fascinating.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

That turned it for her. Yeah, yeah. And I mentioned this in the series, too. I think the thing that I could not come to grips with was this idea of not just ubiquity, that he presented this like, sort of ubiquitous consciousness, this ubiquitous awareness, but his unique ownership of it, which is, I think, back to your point about, like, moving the goalpost. Oftentimes in these high control groups, we find people who are presenting a version of reality that they alone have access to.

[Lola Blanc]

Exactly.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And so that reality can shift according to their whims, you know, and they're whimsical. And boy, are they whimsical.

[Lola Blanc]

Those whims be wimming.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And they are whimming out of control.

[Odoo Announcer]

Wow.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes, it is. No one has ever referred, in my knowledge to Franklin Jones as whimsical, but I love it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I just wanna say something before we move on that, you know, when you can speak different languages, you use different parts of your brains and people say, like, I'm funny in this language, I'm not funny in this language. Or, you know, it's very interesting to me. And there was somebody in the two by twos who was like, I believed in it in English, but not. Whoa, in Italian, you know what I mean? Like, their brain was just, like, not online for it. And then there was another person in the two by twos that I really want to have on who had a stroke and he was like, I can't believe in this anymore. I just can't access the part of my brain that believe.

[Lola Blanc]

Fascinating.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's very fascinating. So this woman translating it to French, I'm assuming she was. Was also just turning on a different side of her brain that actually had critical thinking built into it and was like, what the fuck is this shit?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. I mean, it is quite remarkable, like, the way that we can sort of be able to disentangle.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. We should all have to learn a new language to process our trauma.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Amazing.

[Lola Blanc]

Sure. Yeah, Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I love that.

[Lola Blanc]

I was gonna say, before joining a new religion, you have to learn it in another language.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. Of your choice. Yeah, Yeah, I like that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we don't have to keep talking about words, but I do find words. I find it very interesting what words bring out for us emotionally and like, by default, maybe in our native language versus, like, how we would process it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's so fascinating. Anyway.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Oh, I mean, to that point, like, I was going to mention earlier that, like, he had this doctrine that he or this tape, one of those tapes was called the Baptism of Immortal Happiness.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Love the title.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I mean, such a great title. It really does feel like it gets you there, you know? But I remember listening to it when I was young and I couldn't get past the idea that some of the things he said in there felt like I would never know. I almost like intuited before I could really understand or contemplate if there was any sort of manipulation related to a high control group in that moment. I recognize, I think, or what I was tussling with was this idea of moving the goalpost, which was everything about the way that he said it. He said, I know it. And when he meant it, he meant like the great truth of reality. I know it and you do not. Absolutely. And all miracles are potent in my heart. So I have come here to give you everything. And he says it in this very kind of whimsical, poetic way that he could do. Like, it almost felt like he was a thespian. You know, he had this kind of like Shakespearean way of talking sometimes. And I remember hearing that and being like, what? How does he give it to me? And then I know it, but then I don't know it because he knows it. Like, my brain couldn't put those things together. Like, I forget if it was like the name of one of his talks or like something that he said. But this idea that, like, you can't get there from here. And like, I am a way to myself. Yeah. And I was like, okay, so let me get this straight. So to get to you, you have to give it to me, but I can't be you because you're over here and I don't get it. But once I get it, I'm gonna be you, but I'm not you.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. What a mind fuck. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Which brings us, of course, to orgies.

[Lola Blanc]

Naturally, that's the next step.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, like when, when there is all this word salad, when there is all this. This complicated stuff, there's usually a man having sex with a lot of women.

[Lola Blanc]

Or at least taking their money, but usually there is sex.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, let's. Let's dive into that. So can you tell us a bit about the orgies?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Well, there definitely was very little documentation about what happened inside of these private parties that Jones would have for decades. But what was widely understood from anecdotal reporting, from people who were behind closed doors in these rooms, is that there were some pretty wild drug fueled parties that would be referred to as considerations. It wasn't exclusive to every event where a consideration was taking place or a gathering. But the idea was that a select group of followers were privately partying with Jones, sometimes deep into the night and for days on end. And there was all kinds of Sexual experimentation that happened during that time. And we talk about it in the series. Numerous people have pointed to, including on the record in, you know, civil Complaints. The idea that Jones was manipulating those scenarios to, like, pair other people up with each other who weren't together, like people who were married, having to have sex with other people, all kinds of sort of, you know, out of pocket. I don't even know how to describe it, but, you know, like organizing or, you know, puppeteering or puppeteering, orchestrating these events. And the idea was somehow that this was gonna break them out of their own attachments. Because a big part of what we were raised in the group to believe through Jones was that, like, the ego, something we just think of as our sense of identity as a literal physical being that I can see and touch and feel is a problem. That it is the problem that the perception that you have one is a problem. And everything you do to preserve that ego is a problem. They would call it like a contraction, but the ego was this literal physical contraction, which is such a clever way of disambiguating nuance from uncomfortable situations. So you can say you cutting your.

[Megan Elizabeth]

From your gut.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like, this is good for you. To challenge anything I tell you to do that makes you uncomfortable is actually good for you because it's making you less attached to your ego.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And meanwhile, there's like a. What's her name? A beautiful Playboy model as part of this, you know, when he's like, cut to the chase.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

To get through to all of Yalls egos, I need to have sex with a lot of hot women.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. And he had multiple wives at one point, or what he would, you know, refer to as kind of like they would. They would take up issue with the idea that I would refer to them as wives because they had other names that weren't wives, that were spiritual in some way. But ultimately he had multiple sexual. Multiple sexual sexual partners. Yeah. Over many, many years. And some of them were plucked out of relationships with other people.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. I know that the geographically moves around a little bit, but just to sort of center where we are in space. Like, was this on a compound at this time? Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And where was that?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Multiple compounds.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. So I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area. They had little. I don't even want to call it a facility. It was like an office space in an industrial part of north Marin.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

That was interesting. The Marin Ashram, or sangha, whatever you want to call it. And then they had a compound in Northern California that was like A wellness center that had sort of gone into disrepair that they purchased. And that was kind of the main place where people were located.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, with land.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes, in Lake County.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So like a dorm kind of thing. We usually see that these groups try to split up families a little bit. Was that like kids over here, adults over here? Was that happening?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

A lot of that was part of the group. So, like, you know, people who were living in these comp. Like, there was one Lake county, there was one in Hawaii. He purchased an island in Fiji.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Never good.

[Lola Blanc]

I do that all the time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, never good. It's totally normal.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, it's really easy in Fiji, apparently. It's just swap them out, like sweaters. But yeah, so he owned quite a bit of property. In some of these places. People lived permanently and in. In sort of collective environments. But even quote, unquote, householders, people who lived in houses.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Lived in oftentimes in shared situations where they were with other members of the group. And they had experimented with starting schools. That didn't work out very well for reasons that are unsurprising based on the trajectory of the group.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So you went to school?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I did okay. I did well for a while. I went to school until my freshman year of high school. My parents were kind of on the periphery, really, until around then. We were in the group, but not completely in it. And then when I was in my freshman year of high school, they became Franklin Jones's personal acupuncturist. And when you were providing a service for Franklin Jones, you were given very special treatment in comparison to other members of the group because you had access to him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're touching God's body.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes, exactly. You're sticking needles in him.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So at that point, whenever he needed them, they get a call and they would want to go up there. And so we increasingly had this pressure in our life to be there. You know, we were increasingly asked to be closer to where Jones was. And he was living on this compound in Northern California at the time. And so there was quite a bit of strife between myself and my dad in particular during those years, because he wanted to be with. With this guru. He wanted to be closer to him. And I wanted to play with my friends and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And go to high school.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Go to high school and play basketball.

[Lola Blanc]

And were you in LA before that?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

No, we were in the Bay Area.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, you were in the Bay Area?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, yeah. So. But farther north, they wanted to kind of be on the compound, be near him, be at his call and all that. And at one point, there was speculation about him going back to Fiji and maybe my parents would go with him. And I remember, I just remember them coming into my room one day and being like, do you want to move to Fiji? And I was like, yeah, what did I know? Of course. But things did start to come to a head as I got older because I wanted to be with my friends. I wanted to have some normalcy in my life that I just never seemed to be able to get. I always felt like I was on the periphery of every space that I was in because of the way that I was raised. And then. Yeah, my dad at one point sort of said to me, you're either gonna join the group or find another place to live.

[Lola Blanc]

Rewinding a little bit.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, so you were not living on like a compound with the group when you were a kid? Prior to that era?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Not then.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. In the early days we were part of the group and we would like, go to the services that they would provide on Sunday, which was, you know, in that industrial office space with like a meditation hall and a big picture of Jones on, like the far end of it and everybody with worship the picture and sing songs at it.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I've gone to some churches before that, like, claim to be non denominational, but then there'd be like a cardboard cutout of the leader. And I'm like, this isn't a good sign, you guys. Yeah, like, that's a red flag.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, funny you mention that too, because speaking of cardboard cutouts, when I was a kid living in San Francisco, when I was, you know, up till about fifth grade, we lived in San Francisco. Um, we didn't really have a lot of visitors. And I don't think I really appreciated why that was until I got older. And I remember, you know, I can still picture it, like walking into the room. You'd open the door to our garden apartment in Cow Hollow, like sort of near the ocean on the north side of San Francisco. And you know, you'd open, open the door and there'd be a couch. And on the couch was a life sized cardboard cutout of Jones on the couch, sitting, looking back at you on cardboard.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sitting. That's crazy.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. And you sort of meditate on that picture as though he were sitting in front of you.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow. You know, there's a cardboard cut out of me that was given to me as a gift one time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If we just kick it in the middle, it could be sitting and then.

[Lola Blanc]

You could both worship it and then.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Great, I see where this is going.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, I can relate to what it must have felt like as Kidmilla to go to school with, quote, unquote, normal children while you are living in a completely different planet than them. Can you say a little bit about what that felt like?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, I mean, it just. I think it took me a very long time to feel at home in the world. The world, and literally in the group, as is not uncommon with other groups. Like, there were people who were followers of the group who were in the community, and then there was everybody outside of the group, which was the world, which becomes very problematic when you're trying to navigate a normal life to have to reconcile with 20 years of living in this environment where the world was something outside of your known, safe experience. And so there was a lot of masking that was happening there. As a young person going to public school, like, where I wouldn't talk about what happened inside of my home. I didn't volunteer that information to my friends. I went to their house, and nobody thought much of it, that they didn't come to mine, you know. And so I think I always felt like I was on the outskirts. And making Dear Franklin Jones was a step in the direction of. Of asserting for myself what I wanted for the remainder of my life, which was probably most of my life, hopefully, because I made the show when I was 30. But I just felt that I did not want to live the rest of my life with the sense that my story was not for better or for worse, weird or just like everybody else, something that. That existed within our cultural narratives about life in America. So it was, like, really important to me to feel like I could tell that story in a way that was relatable to people who didn't grow up in it. And they could understand that the things I was going through were very extreme versions of things that they may have experienced themselves as young people. Because it really hurt. Honestly, it hurt to live in a world where I felt like my story was not only a curiosity, but just something that couldn't be understood.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It, like, takes Teenager Dom and turns the volume up.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is what. Like. I've never really thought of it like that, but that's essentially what it does. Because you are already are gonna feel different and like a loser and whatever.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But then, you know, also try to explain that to your buddies. Yeah, you know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

For me, my belief system was a refuge from teenagerdom because I was like, oh, yeah, I have no friends. Well, I'm chosen by God to bring about the end of days, so fuck all of you who don't wanna be my friend.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That brings up something. You having no friends. Lola has something in common with Franklin, actually. Oh, very much so. They're both ventriloquists.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, yeah. Oh, and I also performed at the ventriloquist convention the same year that Paul Winchell performed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I didn't know you were gonna.

[Lola Blanc]

Paul Winchell was brought up on the podcast. We share Paul Winchell, so.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow. So, you know, who knew? Who knew? But yeah, just, I guess you was talking about no friends. I was like, oh, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And that's why Lola has no friends.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Had.

[Lola Blanc]

Had.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I also had no friends, but it was different circumstances because I was dressed.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Crazy, you know, since doing Dear Franklin Jones and continuing to do like sort of long form documentary style storytelling and journalism, obviously cults have come up again and again. And I do feel like there's this quiet community of us, those of us who grew up in high control groups, cults, whatever you want to call them, where cult kids. Right. Like the sense that your life is so distinctly different than the experience of other people has to be unbridgeable. And that's a very difficult feeling to have to reconcile with on top of trying to make sense of whatever the fuck was going on when you were in that group in the first place. And I remember having this conversation with somebody who was in one of these sort of church cult groups in the Pacific Northwest. And we met and I interviewed him for a series that I'm working on. And he. At the end of us doing that series or at the end of us doing the interview, we both just had a moment where we kind of broke the fourth wall. We were no longer interviewee and interviewer, and we were two people who were cult kids. And I think something I shared with this man that I feel like I've shared with a lot of people who have gone through being raised in a group like this is just having to carry the burden of explaining yourself to the world because your identity is so inextricable from the ideology that was imposed upon you that you inherited, that you didn't go on a spiritual vision quest to do. Like, I wish I could have been like my dad and, and done some acid and seen the other side, but I wasn't. I was born to two parents who were convinced that the world was a very particular way and that there was a man behind the curtain who was all of us and that we needed to worship him and to reconcile that with a world that saw this person oftentimes as dangerous as A pariah, whatever you want to call it, like, that's a very. That's a very tough thing to have to live with. And I just hope that my story and other people's stories of growing up in these groups helps to make people feel a little bit less alone about those of us who did go through that, you know?

[Lola Blanc]

Totally, totally. I mean, there are so many of us. It's like. I would never have thought when we first started the podcast, I was like, oh, we'll find out. Yes, it's no problem. But like, the amount of people who have had some kind of manipulative or charismatic person, like, leading their childhood or high control group or what, or a fucked up religion, like, there's so many of us out there, which you wouldn't think that because it feels like such this fringe thing, but, like, how many people do we know at this point? Like, it's. And now randomly at parties, people will be like, oh, yeah, me too.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, like.

[Lola Blanc]

Like we're coming out of the woodwork.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's why I met you.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. Hey, you were Nicole, too.

[Lola Blanc]

All right, we are going to leave part one with Jonathan there for now, come back next week for part two. And Megan, it's time for the question. The question being, would you join this cult?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes. Yes. What more can I say? Psychedelics.

[Lola Blanc]

Community.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm. Yeah, I'm susceptible to this one.

[Lola Blanc]

I could see this for you. His parents being on this, like, journey, the spirituality journey, and they're like, they're meet cute.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, it's all calling my name. So as always, I'm just gonna lock myself in my room, not talk to anyone, and stay out of cults.

[Lola Blanc]

I think that sounds like a great idea. Don't speak to anyone.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I won't. And if they're charismatic, I mace them. Next week's episode, we get even deeper. It's really great. We can't wait to see you come back for it. Rate us five stars. If you're feeling the New Year's resolution to give some good energy. And as always, remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Trust me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Bye.

[Lola Blanc]

Bye. This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Elizabeth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our senior producer is Ji Ha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cotner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Heartstark and Danielle Kyle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram @TrustMe podcast or on TikTok at Trust Me Cult Podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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