Renee DiResta - Part 2: Pseudo-Events, More on Disinformation, and Telling Fact From Fiction

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation
Episode: Renee DiResta – Part 2: Pseudo-Events, More on Disinformation, and Telling Fact from Fiction
Date: December 10, 2025
Hosts: Lola Blanc & Megan Elizabeth
Guest: Renee DiResta, professor and author of Invisible: The People who Turn Lies into Reality

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Episode Overview

This episode, a continuation from last week's conversation, welcomes back Renee DiResta for an in-depth exploration into how manufactured controversies, pseudo-events, and viral misinformation shape our understanding of reality. The conversation digs into the mechanics of social media disinformation, why fact and fiction are so hard to separate, and what real- and bad-faith actors stand to gain from social division—supplemented by insights from DiResta’s latest research and book. The tone is candid, darkly humorous, and incisive, with a palpable urgency about the manipulation and isolation fostered by algorithms and online echo chambers.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Social Media Participation: The 90-9-1 Rule

(Starts at 13:04)

• Renee DiResta explains:
  • 90% of users are lurkers who don’t post.
  • 9% contribute occasionally.
  • 1% generates the majority of content: "That is what you are seeing...a very tiny percentage of people who are actually out there as content creators." [13:11, Renee DiResta]
• Algorithmic amplification:
  • The top 1% rises because “what they're posting is extreme and emotionally charged. And things that are emotionally charged spread faster.” [14:03, Lola Blanc]
• Platform manipulation (e.g. TikTok’s “heating button,” LinkedIn influencer invites).

---

2. Manufactured Outrage and Pseudo-Events

(Deep dive starts at 17:37)

• Pseudo-events defined:
  • Coined by Daniel Boorstin – events created solely for media attention (“the hype generates the newsworthiness itself”). [18:06, Renee DiResta]
  • Examples: Ribbon-cuttings, “Kim Kardashian breaking the Internet,” artificially extended news cycles.
  • On social: "So much of what you pay attention to on social media is complete bullshit." [18:59, Renee DiResta]
• Viral outrage cycles:
  • Example: “Bean Dad”—a mundane anecdote that escalated into a spiral of online outrage.
  • Example: Woman posts about coffee with her husband, Internet attacks her for “privilege.”
  • "You’d open the app and be like, what are we mad about today?" [21:44, Renee DiResta]
• Real-world consequences:
  • Small incidents go viral, leading to doxxing or harassment, even though they don’t merit the global attention they receive.

---

3. Decontextualized and Fake Media: Fact vs. Fiction

(Segment starts at 24:34)

• Viral misinformation:
  • Videos and photos frequently go viral with misleading or fabricated captions.
  • Caution from Lola: “If you’re looking at a video and there is text...do not assume that the text is accurate.” [24:34, Lola Blanc]
• Old footage recirculated:
  • Case study: Video claimed to show ICE raids, actually an old custody dispute reframed for viral impact.
  • "Real and true are not the same thing...Real is: did something happen? True is: is it used in the right context?" [27:02, Renee DiResta]
• Motivations:
  • Some intentionally “rage-bait” for clicks.
  • Many are duped into spreading misinformation sincerely, thinking they’re helping.

---

4. Who Benefits? State, Politicians, and Platforms

(Delves in around 29:10)

• State actors:
  • Russia and others exploit pre-existing cultural fissures:
    • “[They’re] not creating social divisions out of whole cloth. They’re using stories to exploit divisions that are already there.” [29:58, Renee DiResta]
• Domestic amplification:
  • Politicians latch onto viral rumors for political gain.
  • Example: 2024 “eating pets” rumor in Springfield, Ohio—how a racist Facebook rumor escalated when picked up by political candidates, resulting in bomb threats and national media fixation.
  • "We used to see our political leaders being the firebreak...instead, Vance does the opposite." [34:31, Renee DiResta]

---

5. How Do We Navigate Disinformation?

(Main solutions segment at 35:56)

• Lack of clear answers:
  • “There was not really an easy answer there at the time.” [36:12, Renee DiResta]
  • Decentralized cults (e.g. QAnon) are especially hard to counter.
• Storytelling & trust:
  • The key is building alternative narratives of meaning and trust, not just “facts.”
  • Positive role models: Dr. Mike, Hank Green, “your local epidemiologist”—using story and personality to deliver reliable public health info.
  • “People are not looking for facts. They’re looking for someone to help them understand, someone they feel they can trust.” [39:58, Renee DiResta]

---

6. The Limits of Platform & Regulatory Solutions

(Segment at 44:19)

• Current regulatory issues (US):
  • Platforms curate content as they see fit; regulation is minimal and polarized.
  • Lack of interoperability keeps users locked in and resistant to leaving toxic spaces.
  • “Transparency laws here are really abysmal.” [48:04, Renee DiResta]
  • Influencer disclosure, especially for political content, is inadequate.
• European context:
  • Europe mandates some transparency and “right to appeal” content removals.
  • Greater push for data portability and interoperability.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “So much of what you pay attention to on social media is complete bullshit.”

  • Renee DiResta [18:59]

• “If you’re looking at a video and there is text written on it about what is happening, do not assume that the text is accurate for what is happening.”

  • Lola Blanc [24:34]

• “Real and true are not the same thing. Real is: did a machine make it, or is it authentic? True is: is it used in the correct context?”

  • Renee DiResta [27:02]

• “We used to see our political leaders being the sort of firebreak...Now...they're the ones amplifying the rumor.”

  • Renee DiResta [34:31]

• “People are not looking for facts. They’re looking for someone to help them understand—someone they feel they can trust.”

  • Renee DiResta [39:58]

---

Recommendations & Final Thoughts

• On resisting manipulation:
  • Question emotionally manipulative content—especially if it triggers a strong response.
  • Diversify sources; don’t rely on a single “influencer” or algorithm.
• On positive change:
  • There’s hope in influencer communicators who use storytelling and empathy to bridge knowledge gaps.
• On structural reform:
  • Push for transparency, interoperability, and real accountability for platforms and influencers.
• On personal vigilance:
  • Lola: “If it makes me feel strong feelings, the first thing I do is look it up and make sure…so many times it’s just an honest mistake.” [52:27]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Overview: 01:40
• The 90-9-1 Rule: 13:04
• Pseudo-Events & Manufactured Outrage: 17:37
• Viral Videos & Decontextualization: 24:34
• State & Domestic Actors Fueling Division: 29:10
• Case Study – 2024 Eating Pets Rumor: 30:54
• Navigating a Disinfo World: 35:56
• Solutions—Influencers, Storytelling, and Regulation: 39:54, 44:19
• Final Reflections: 48:58

---

Closing Sentiment

The episode closes with mutual admiration between the hosts and guest, a sense of urgency about the stakes (“more good efforts, more laws”—but also grassroots media literacy), and a resigned but determined mood about the challenges ahead:

"Remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags. And never ever trust me." [53:17]

---

This summary preserves the candid and forthright tone of the conversation, collates major insights, and serves as a practical guide for understanding how and why disinformation spreads—and what we can do about it.

Transcript

[Lola Blanc]

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[Megan Elizabeth]

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Trust Me.

[Lola Blanc]

Do you trust me?

[Matt Rogers]

Would I ever lead you astray?

[Renee Diresta]

Trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

This is the truth.

[Renee Diresta]

The only truth.

[Lola Blanc]

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't. Welcome to Trust Me the podcast called Extreme Belief and Manipulation from two savvy Internet users who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I am Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

And today our guest is once again Renee Diresta, professor and author of Invisible the People who Turn Lies into Reality. Last week we talked about propaganda versus disinformation on the Internet and how we're all living in bespoke realities. And this week we're gonna chat about what she calls super pseudo events or controversies or news stories that are entirely manufactured. How easy it is for images and videos to be taken out of context and feed disinformation, and why it's so difficult to tell fact from fiction.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's right. She'll tell us how propagandists purposely stoke real pre existing tensions in the countries they're targeting, how politicians are amplifying false information instead of shutting it down and Some possible policies that could help reduce our culty social media silos before we.

[Lola Blanc]

Learn so much more from Renee Diresta about why we're all fucked on the Internet. Megan, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Megan Elizabeth]

So my cultiest thing is looking into this Korean religious sect. It's called Grace Road, and it's in the news a lot lately because it's been moving over to Fiji, which is interesting. The leader, her name is Shen. I'm not even gonna attempt to say her last name because I don't want to butcher it. But she did get arrested because they take part in something called threshing, where essentially the leader would just beat the shit out of congregants.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And she's in jail right now, but her son is taking over. And again, I'm just seeing reports from people in Fiji being like, dang, there's a lot of South Korean people here right now. They all seem to be pregnant because they're trying to grow the cult by having new members, starting a lot of restaurants, even a grocery store, which is something we see a lot, you know, get into the food biz. So the fact that there's even grocery stores is interesting. The ol son or daughter taking over is in effect. And I can't believe we haven't done an episode on this yet. It's really horrible to watch. A lot of these videos were made public of beating people. I don't know, it's.

[Lola Blanc]

It's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's a hard one to look at, but I'm really curious to see what's going to happen there. And one of the experts that's talking about it a lot. I'd also love to have him on, but he is from South Korea and he's just talking about how it's such a. The political distress there has made a really perfect silo for a lot of extreme belief to start bubbling. And then some leaders are really good at using cultural zeitgeist things like K pop and putting it into their religion. So it's very. It's very fascinating stuff. Very sad, very scary. But I want to keep an eye on it and I would love to interview a survivor.

[Lola Blanc]

That sounds fascinating. There are so many cults in other countries that I feel like we have to talk to people from them because the different cultural context does make it so interesting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know. I can't wait to learn more about it.

[Lola Blanc]

I guess we'll talk about it in a future episode.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What about you? What's your cultiest thing of the week?

[Lola Blanc]

My Cultiest thing of the week is that I. I almost got scammed again, but more directly this time by a social media marketing guru. There are so many of these people online and some of them have legitimately useful things to say.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Lola Blanc]

And others this man is. Okay, I saw some videos from him on like TikTok or whatever talking about like music promotion. And a lot of the time people will have really surface level stuff to say. And he was talking more about like core identity stuff and like staying aligned with who you really are and like, not values. Yeah, I mean like stuff that I care about because for me like just chasing the numbers is. Feels really like stupid and pointless. And he's talking about stuff that appeals to me so you can like set up a one on one on his website and get a consultation or whatever. So I do the consultation. It's free, why not? And okay, so let me tell you, this guy is so charismatic and he's like this guy in New York who's, I don't even know. Like he was in a band, his boyfriend was in a band, something. I don't even know anything about this man, but like the way that he talked, I was, I felt so seen and so heard and so understood and. And he's just had this like cadence and charisma and as he's talking I'm like, oh, I get it, this is how it happens. Cause I like want to listen to whatever he says to me and he's asking me these like deeply personal questions for a social media marketing call and like some of that stuff is necessary, but he's getting like really like, so what is it about that? What does it make you feel when that happens and how do you feel about what I'm saying to you right now? And um, you know, like stuff that I'm like, it is relevant, but you're asking me a lot about my feelings and not telling me about the price. And we talked for literally an hour and 15 minutes and like finally 45 minutes in, he like tells me the like logistics and cost of the program. And it turns out it's just a pre made YouTube series, like little seminar that you pay a fuck ton of money for. And he had marketed it as like this one on one thing, but it's actually that there's group zoom calls and these like videos and you're supposed to pay a lot of money for them. And so he says this to me and I'm like, oh, okay. And he's like, how does that make you feel? I can see that Something, blah, blah, blah. Something didn't strike you? And I was like, well, you know, like, if I were to spend money, like, I don't have a lot of it, and I would ideally be looking for someone to, like, assess my page and, like, figure it out with me. That. That, like, stuff where you kind of do it on your own. I've done that before. That's not. I don't necessarily need that. And he then spent 20 minutes plus trying to convince me why my fears were not relevant and I should spend the money on the program. And I could see he, like, thought I was, like, a fish that he had to, like, catch.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Reel in.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Um, and by the end of it, I was like, oh, man. Like, those first 30 minutes, I felt so, like, I. There was this person who was just gonna solve all my problems. And then, of course, damn it, all the feelings were there. He, like, got all the feelings there, and it was just, like, just wrong enough that I didn't do it, you know?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Lola, here's the plan. You're going to make a hundred first impression setups with charismatic leaders and get their free hour.

They're all going to sell you at the end, but you're going to get 30 minutes of actual connection from all of them.

[Lola Blanc]

I just want someone to ask me what I'm feeling.

[Renee Diresta]

I'm starving for someone asking me what I'm feeling.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you know what's really scary is if. Let's say that, you know, I. I would love to speak to you more about this to see how ill intent this man intent. How ill intent this man's intent was.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

But, you know, like, if. If it was super not good, just how much information he would have to use against you and know what your weaknesses are and your fear points. And.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, I was really mindful of that as we were talking because I was like, unfortunately, like, this is. I wouldn't say. This is all stuff I would say on the podcast. So this is fine. But as we were talking, I was definitely clocking, like, somebody could be sharing stuff that's, like, super personal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

And he's recording the call. And, like, I don't necessarily think that this is some evil guy. I think it's just a classic, like, salesperson. Yeah, like, technique. But it felt really scammy to me in the way it was set up for it. Like, felt like a bait and switch. But, yeah, just, like, getting that glimpse into, like, there are people who just have that thing and, like, know how to make you feel special. And some of them are Just salespeople. And some of them are worse. So once again, if somebody makes you feel so uniquely special and understood so immediately before you know each other at all.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Warning.

[Lola Blanc]

Warning.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You should not have sparks with people from the start.

[Lola Blanc]

Hate that. Just let movies be real.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I know, I know. No, and, and, and sometimes you can. And it's healthy. I'm just, I'm just doing a little bit, y'.

[Lola Blanc]

All.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Sometimes it's real.

[Lola Blanc]

Sometimes, but 2% of the time. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go with that made up statistic. I agree with it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, let's talk to Renee.

[Lola Blanc]

Let's do it.

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[Lola Blanc]

So you've talked about this idea, the 991 rule.

[Renee Diresta]

So.

[Lola Blanc]

So can you kind of explain what that is?

[Renee Diresta]

Yeah. So most people on social media are like quiet lurkers. So 90% of people don't post. They just kind of take out their phone and maybe scroll, maybe they'll hit the like button. But they're not really creating content. 9% or so of people are making something. Maybe they're contributing a little bit, maybe they're commenting, maybe they're doing a quote retweet, maybe they're making a post every now and then. And then 1% of people are producing an overwhelming amount of the content. Like that is what you are seeing. It's really overwhelming. Overwhelmingly a very, very, very, very tiny percentage of people who are actually out there as content creators and out there even on some of the most divisive platforms where again, like per that majority illusion comment from earlier, you think you're seeing the like reflected opinions of the average ordinary person and you very much are not. You're seeing like whatever that 1% decides they want to be talking about.

[Lola Blanc]

And that 1%, like often will rise to the top because what they're posting is extreme and it emotional, it's emotionally charged. And things that are emotionally charged spread faster. So therefore we can't escape it. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I didn't really understand until recently and embarrassingly recently how much the algorithm is so random. Like it does feed off of divisiveness, it does feed off of emotion. But also there. And I saw that you said in the book there was like a hot button People at TikTok were able to press to kind of.

[Renee Diresta]

Oh, the heating thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The heating thing.

[Lola Blanc]

Someone press that for me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. To like kind of make things pop off. But it does feel as though it's like super random.

[Lola Blanc]

Depends on the app, right?

[Renee Diresta]

So I don't make much video content. It does depend on the app. There are certain types of, you know, every now and then the platforms will push out one of these creator invitations. I don't know if you guys have ever gotten one of these. I got one from LinkedIn which absolutely blew my mind.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like.

A LinkedIn influencer, a LinkedIn fluencer.

[Renee Diresta]

I always say yes when they do these things because I'm from more from a research standpoint than as a content creator in any way. But just because I'm kind of curious to see what, what guidelines they give. They're doing this on threads now. Also like people who want to be uniquely kind of text based creators on threads, sometimes they're doing bonuses for creators if you create this many posts. You know, there's like ways that they're trying to hook people in and draw them into the, you know, make the platform have more stuff on it. That was happening on Facebook videos for a while. I write about that a little bit in the book. They were really trying to promote the watch Tab As a. As TikTok was rising. So you'll see again, the platforms are all in competition with each other. And so they'll do a little bit of occasionally try to, like, recruit certain types of creators onto the platform to sort of boost certain types of content. But there are these things where they're trying to give creators tips on how to succeed. And when they're doing that, that's where you occasionally get a little bit of a glimpse what they're optimizing for. So on threads, they'll tell people, like, responding actually really matters. They want to build up this conversational dynamic so that it's not all just people broadcasting. So they tell the creators, you should really be in the replies, you should be talking to people. Like, that raises your profile, not just posting. And so you can kind of start to get a sense for, like, what does the algorithm reward? It's not only your post, they also don't want links because that drives you away from the platform if people are clicking out. And that's why you'll see people, like, post the screenshot. I also find it like, a complete mystery sometimes, like, why did this get a ton of views and that? Nothing. And, you know, I. It's. I think, again, it gets at these questions of, like, is it the right language? You know, you'll see people who will really be in there with a fine tooth comb, particularly on YouTube. I had a few friends who were willing to kind of sit there as I was doing the writing and just walk me through, like, this is how I analyze, literally, like, minute by minute, the optimization functions that go into making some of these videos. And that's where you see, like, for them, how much of it is.

You know, like, the incentives that go into. This is the thumbnail I'm going to make. This is the title I'm going to give it. Right. Exactly. It's not just, oh, I made a video and it hit, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah. Like, as an artist, it makes me feel so depressed because I'm like, for me, I believe, like, you know, if.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It'S good, it'll rise to the top.

[Renee Diresta]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And like, art should be something that's authentic and true to you and not with the audience in mind. But then it's like, in today's modern world, like, you're fucked if that. If that's your approach. But okay. I loved your section talking about pseudo events, and I wondered if you could give us some examples of a pseudo event and what that means.

[Renee Diresta]

The one that I always think of is, like, Kim Kardashian, breaking the Internet, which maybe shows my age. But.

So pseudo events. That is a term from Daniel Boorstein, who is a media theorist. And I'm trying to remember what year his book was written. I think it was maybe in the 1960s sometime. I will look that up and give it to you for the show notes or something. But he writes this book and it's an absolutely fantastic book. It's so relevant today because he's writing again before. Before social media. The pseudo event is an event that is made entirely for media to report on it. It is a thing that if it happened in the world, unless you notified media about it, it would not be anything worth reporting on. It's like the grand reopening of a store, you know, where they'll invite media to go there for the ribbon cutting. But that's not newsworthy. It's only newsworthy because they have chosen to make it newsworthy. So it becomes newsworthy kind of through the act of repression reporting by having the media there. It becomes something that, you know, it's almost like the hype generates the newsworthiness itself. It's entirely constructed as opposed to a real event happened that actual people should know about. And he writes about this because it starts to happen around the time that media, particularly television, becomes this 24, you know, sort of like 24 hour cycle, right? All of a sudden you have to be filling the television time. Do you ever watch something like election night kind of comes to mind. But there's other moments like during the Olympics and stuff where they'll just constantly be teasing it and teasing it and teasing it and teasing it like nothing has happened yet. You're still just watching it, watching it and waiting. But you know that eventually maybe there'll be a payoff, but in the meantime, they're just kind of hooking you there, or otherwise it's a really slow news cycle that day. So you're going to be watching the television program where it's. They're really kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find something to tell you, you know, to tell you about. And what's interesting on social media is you don't even realize it, but so much of what you pay attention to on social media is complete bullshit, right? It's just these are things where. But for the fact that you have your phone out and there is nothing else going on on your phone in that moment that people are kind of, you know, equally bored and hitting the retweet button about like this is Not a thing that you necessarily need to know about in the world. And there's an awful lot of that kind of thing that starts to happen. And so I talked a little bit about these moments on Twitter where the entire Internet just like, erupts an outrage at random tweets.

There was one called Bean Dad. I don't know if you guys remember.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No.

[Renee Diresta]

I was always much more on Twitter than Instagram. So this is again, my personal bias from being more of a. A text based social media person. But, like, this guy wanted his daughter to figure out how to open a can of beans with a can opener. So he kind of posted about it and, like, the Internet blew up with whether or not this was, like, horribly abusive, that he wasn't teaching her how to.

How to like, operate the can opener. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Renee Diresta]

I mean, this, like, this was the discourse for the whole afternoon. Wow. Or there was one where there was a woman who posted about how much she loved having coffee in the garden with her husband. Like, and how they never ran out of things to talk about. It's just like, really cute, you know, she was just probably, like, out there, happy, glowing, sitting with her husband, having her coffee. And she posted about how wonderful it was that she had coffee with her husband. And, like, again, the whole Internet came for her. It was like, you know, not everybody is as privileged as you are. Not everybody has husbands and coffee and gardens.

You know, and these are the kinds of things that were like, you'd open the app sometimes you'd be like, what are we mad about today? You know?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Renee Diresta]

You would never have known that this person existed or that that man was doing this with his daughter and that, you know, can opener or any of these things. These are not real moments that you should have, like, raised your blood pressure over. But, like, you know, the whole world was like, there, you know, and it's. It's interesting because you really see, brings people in, and these are some of the stupid ones, but they're also, you know, there's also moments where it leads to two people get into a fight over a parking space, right? And then the Internet decides to dox one of them because they feel like somebody was, you know, sexist or racist or this or that, or they don't see, you know, they misconstrue the interaction or they don't misconstrue it. Maybe the person was, you know, a real jerk. But there's that moment where, like, this would never have been on the Internet. And the question is, like, is this really the thing that we need to be fixating on. Two people fight over a parking space, but for the fact that someone's there with a camera phone, you never would have known about it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, and you best believe I'm watching it. I'm watching the whole thing.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Stay.

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[Lola Blanc]

You wrote a little bit about some other instances, including the Wayfair fake controversy, as well as like, videos that go viral that are completely taken out of context, which is something that I just like, makes me feel so crazy. I encourage people, if you're looking at a video and there is text written on it about what is happening, to not assume that the text is accurate for what is happening unless you literally see that exact thing happening in the video. I just. So many times things are shared and I'm like, but why? But how do we know that that's what this random person on Twitter says it is? And so much of the time, it turns out not to be.

[Renee Diresta]

Often, oftentimes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And there are people who are posting this on purpose to rage bait to keep us divided or to get clicks.

[Renee Diresta]

Like, as you were talking, I was thinking of one, you know, when the ice. The ice raids kind of started. There was a video that went around saying that it was ice raids up in the Bronx, up in. Up in New York City. And it had a baby being taken away from a mom and the mom was being put in the squad car.

And it was going viral on Blue Sky. Somebody sent it to me, and I was actually really curious if it was AI, because that's the other component. Not only is it decontextualized sometimes, but sometimes it's just not even real now. And that was why it was sent to me with the question, like, is this even real? And I figured out it was real, right? One of the guys had a jersey on, and the number of the football player matched the number on the jersey. AI is not that good yet. And I sent it to a few other people who also do the kind of work that I do against authentication or where does this come from? These sort of content traces, basically trying to figure out, is this real? Where does it come from? And the general consensus was, like, this was old and decontextualized, and we were trying to find news articles about it. And eventually somebody sorted out that it was actually, in fact from years and years ago and had been like a custody dispute. And that was where this is where this footage had come from. But these are the sorts of things where when you just see, like. And the person who had posted it to Blue sky actually took it down. I had sent them a message saying, like, can you tell me where you got this from? Right? Not in an accusatory way. You want to kind of like, ask that. Because most people don't know, right? They see something, somebody sends it to them. Like, they really genuinely believe that they're helping inform their community of something that is really bad. Like, that was clearly the intent with which this was posted. And so you try to get a sense of, like, where might they have seen it from? Did they see it on Instagram and go and pull it, or did somebody send it to them? So it's just very hard now for people to have any sense that what they're seeing is real and true. And real and true are not the same thing, right? Real is, did a machine make it, or is it actually authentic footage? And then true is, is the footage used in the context in which the person is claiming it is? And that's what you mean when you say, like, is the text above it accurately representing what is in the image below? And then the third question is, like, do they know, right? Are they the account that's trying to be manipul? Or do they sincerely believe that what they're saying is true? And oftentimes with that, you're gauging based on their prior reputation and their prior actions, Are they somebody who generally is a good Faith actor who tries to be accurate, and when they find out that they haven't been, takes it down or writes an apology or clearly indicates that, whoops, I got this wrong, here's what it actually is. Or are they just like, well, I'm gonna leave that up and keep cashing in the views? And so that's the dynamic under which this kind of stuff increasingly happen.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, it's so frustrating because, like, there are genuine injustices occurring in America and the entire world, including the massive funding of ICE and, you know, like, that becoming a priority in our country over a lot of other things that are very important. And it just becomes so difficult. I feel like in this era now, there's so much distrust, because when there are genuine injustices happening, there are gonna be people who point to examples like that and say, well, there's been misinformation about this, so this must be fake. And of course, then there are, you know, people trying to influence us to. To not fight back against injustice. And then there are also people invested in keeping America divided. And that's the piece that I am particularly interested in right now is like, who. Who first of all is invested in America being a divided country? And why? What does that achieve?

[Renee Diresta]

So sometimes it is state actors. You know, you do see that just from the standpoint of anybody in a. This is where the geopolitical component comes in. You know, Russia's been doing this for decades. It's not just recently. It's going back to the Cold War. You start to see the dynamics of disinformation and coming up with a story and laundering it through sympathetic media. The idea that the CIA created AIDS is one of these canonical examples where you take a story and something that's likely to divide people and you move it. At that point, it was through newspapers, happened very slowly. But that was, you know, that was a. An effort to tap into race relations, distrust, you know, fears of AIDS at the time, questions about was the government lying to people about where it came from, a lot of these different things that went into that, that operation. So what you start to see is this. Can you use that real story, that real tension, that real underlying social issue, and can you just exploit it? Very little of the social division content is new. You know, they're not like creating social divisions out of whole cloth. They're using stories to exploit social divisions that are already there. That's the thing that people often misconstrue. So there is, like, real issues, and they're just using what they have to wedge that further apart. But then there's the things that are much more impactful. Right. Which is the domestic side of this, where you do have political parties that begin to realize that this is advantageous to them. And there'll be a paperback version of the book. And I was writing the epilogue, and my publisher might get mad, but.

One of the stories that I chose to include in the epilogue is the story of eating the pets during election 2024. So during the 2024 campaign, there was a moment where in a random Facebook group catering to the community of Springfield, Ohio, a woman who sincerely believed this made a post saying, my neighbor's friend's daughter's cat went missing. And then she saw the neighbors across the street, Haitian immigrants, hanging it up as if to skin it. Watch your pet. Right? So she talks about how her. So this is a rumor, right? My neighbors, friends, daughters. Or she says it in some, you know, some kind of formulation of those things. I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but she tells the story of a second, you know, third hand story in which she accuses the Haitian immigrants in the community of eating this cat. And that screenshot in a private Facebook group is taken and then it is moved to Twitter where this other account says, see, they're talking about the cats. But I told you this was happening with the ducks and you all laughed at me, but it's happening with the ducks. And then this post goes everywhere. So this is a pretty standard run of the mill rumor construct. Like, oh, I heard my neighbor's friend's sister's dog did this. You know, these kinds of ways in which again, the rumor mill that we were talking about, people sharing information from person to person, they're doing it because they genuinely think they're helping their community. But what happens next with that post is that JD Vance picks it up. So as it goes viral, he's running for the vice presidency. And so he's on the ticket with Donald Trump. And he picks up that story, picks up that rumor, and he's the senator from Ohio. And he says something to the effect of, see, I've been talking about this, the people and you know, the people of Ohio. Nobody's been listening to them. Where is our border czar? Where is Kamala Harris? Yeah. So he takes the story and instead of letting it go, he takes this viral moment because this is, this is trending on Twitter and he hops on the trend. And this is where you see that handoff from rumor to propaganda, in my opinion, right? When I say these things are happening in the same place. Now you have an incredibly powerful person with an absolutely massive following who has the imprimatur of authority. This is a sitting senator running for vice president. Instead of saying this is bullshit, he picks it up and he says this is absolutely happening. Right? And he boosts it. And what happens next is that it leads to a two week media cycle about whether or not the Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio are eating the pets.

[Lola Blanc]

So crazy.

[Renee Diresta]

And this is expressed in the presidential campaign. And it sounds insane to think that this is something that we America are discussing. Right, because it's racist. Right. It's like it's an egregious rumor. And what makes it worse is that as the investigators, like the investigative journalists go out there, they're talking to the Republican governor of Ohio, they're talking to the Republican sheriffs, the Republican business leaders, all of whom are saying this is not true. Meanwhile, bomb threats are being called into the schools, into the hospitals. Like this is no longer just online. And they're not trying to diffuse it. Instead they're saying, well, the media is just not talking to the right people. The media is trying to cover this up. You know, those rhinos over there are just not telling you the truth. And they. And they keep it going. And so the story that I tell in the epilogue is like how this, like basically how this walks through. This is one of many stories in the epilogue, but.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes, exactly.

[Renee Diresta]

But I think it's really important for people to see it as, you know, and this is not to say that only the right does this or only the left does this. But in this particular example, rather than we used to see our political leaders being the sort of firebreak in this stuff, right? No, this didn't happen. This is just some stuff that people online are saying. But.

We'Re not gonna give that the imprimatur of the United States government. We're not gonna level that up to pretending that this is real. But instead, Vance does the opposite. And then when media finally says, look, come on, there is no evidence that this is happening, what he says is if I have to make up stories to make the media pay attention to what's happening in the plight of the people of Springfield who are having their resources used by immigrants, then that's what I'm going to do.

[Lola Blanc]

I mean, yeah, we already were living in a world where it was difficult to discern reality from unreality. And now with an administration that is systematically dismantling scientific institutions, for example, just whatever serves their interests, like, and then of course, we have just our human instincts and we have the algorithms and.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We have the brands and we have.

[Lola Blanc]

AI and we have AI now to contend with. Fucking Sora. Like, what? How are we supposed to navigate this landscape?

[Megan Elizabeth]

What do we do?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, like.

[Renee Diresta]

Well, you know, it's funny because I, when I, when you guys reached out, I was like, oh, you know, I remember in 2018, I think, I think it was 2018, maybe it was a little later when I was writing this article I was writing for Wired at the time. I actually did reach out to a psychologist who worked with people who were leaving cults. And I asked about QAnon, and I was like, look, this isn't my field. I work in data science and analysis and stuff like that. But it seems like a decentralized cult. Is that the wrong read? Tell me if I'm wrong, and if I'm not wrong, then. Then, you know, what is the. What do you do with this? Like, what do you do when it's this decentralized? Because I think the difference between the old and the new is that in the old model, you had that in person component, right, where there was like one figure and, you know, there was like a, you know, people were like, oriented around that. Whereas it seems so much more decentralized now. These different. There are like cult influencers in QAnon as opposed to like one centralized figure. And so the question is, what do you do when that is the dynamic? And unfortunately, I have to say, like, there was not really an easy answer there at the time. The suggestion was, well, you try to stop social media companies from pushing people into these groups, right? But that doesn't really do very much when it's sort of achieved critical mass and the momentum is there. And. And then at the time, again, in 2018, 2019, it hadn't really been fully, I think, legitimized in quite the way that it is now. Not just QAnon, but just this idea that it's normal to just tell lies like that. Right? So I think at this point where I've come down is you have to give somebody another story, another sense of meaning, another sense of, you know, a way to rebuild trust. You have to, you know, do all of these different things. So how do you help that process happen? And it has to happen on social media where people are. So what are the ways that you do start to get, you know, these folks communicating better, more accurate information to the public? And so I spent a bunch more time lately actually asking that question, like, what Are the. Who are the public health influencers? You know? Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, you are one. I mean, you have done tireless work. I don't know how you managed to be a mother. And you're like. And then on my free time, I was. I'm like, what. What energy source are you running off of? It's incredible. We need more of that.

[Renee Diresta]

Well, I mean, you guys are doing a lot of it, too, right? Like, helping tell people's stories. I think. I think the storytelling component is where so many of the gaps have been. I think my frustration with the CDC coming out of the measles situation in 2015 was that they still really, sincerely, deeply believed that the public would continue to listen to them, just because it always had.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Renee Diresta]

Well, we're the government, so we put out these things, we say this stuff, and that's it. That's where it ends. You know, people will continue to vaccinate their kids because they believe us, because we're the government. And when Covid started, I thought, like, man, this is going to be such a bloodbath because now it's going to happen right now. They're going to see just how huge that gulf actually is and just how unprepared they actually are for the fight that is about to come. And sure enough, that was what happened. And so I think, like, I'm. I look at people like Dr. Mike on YouTube, right? Or some of the, you know, your local epidemiologist or unbiased science or some of these others who are out there, again, trying to just use content creation and storytelling. Hank Green, I think, is really great at this. Also.

[Lola Blanc]

Jessica Nurik. Is that how you say it?

[Renee Diresta]

I love her on Instagram.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Renee Diresta]

Yes. Yes. And I think there's so many of them who are some of the. There's a lot of mom influencers who are out there trying to do it now, who are just trying to be out there as positive, empathetic voices that recognize that the facts are not what people are looking for. They're looking for somebody to help them understand, somebody that they feel that they can trust. And how do you communicate like that in this environment? And that's where I think. I think a lot of this has to come from there at this point.

[Lola Blanc]

Which is so sad, because it means influencers are.

Our hope. That's so depressing.

I don't want that. But if we have always, as humans, relied on other people in our communities to interpret the media for us and that's how we form our opinions, then, yes, that is what we need to be doing. It's just like in this scarce attention economy where people have like a 4 second attention span, I mean, it's just really disheartening.

[Renee Diresta]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I think that that thing we always come back to with cults in general applies where it's like, are you isolated? Are you speaking to people in real life? Are you only going to one person? Like, you know, getting out of that bubble is really important. So hopefully people can just get the fuck offline.

[Renee Diresta]

Yeah, no, you're right about that. Or even the. There are a couple articles that have been written about it lately. And I think it's really true that social media is not really social in quite the same way anymore. Right. It's just entertainment.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Right.

[Renee Diresta]

And SORA is an interesting evolution in this now where it's just content. It's just pure content. It's like a steady drip of content. And I feel like I only socialize. I socialize in like group chats. Like, it's.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Renee Diresta]

It's like people I know, like, I know most of them in real life, but I talk to them in group chats, not on Facebook. Like, I, I don't see content from almost anybody I know on Facebook at this point, whereas 10 years ago that was how I followed weddings and birthdays and stuff. I have a private Instagram account where I only follow and I'm followed by people I know in real life. And that's where I see like, oh, cool, this is where people's Halloween pictures are. And then I have my other, my other one where it's all right, this is the one where I'm going to follow all the people I need to understand professionally. And that's my content account, right? Yeah, but it's just a weird, you know, even LinkedIn though, the idea that, you know, you use it to like connect with people you might need to get a job from someday. And now you're supposed to be out there, like, influencing on influencing. I saw this meme that was like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do people on LinkedIn know we're gonna.

[Renee Diresta]

Die something our stuff is just. And okay, I just had this random.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Question come to my mind and we can cut it out of if you don't answer it. But, like, were you ever influenced by any of the stuff that you came across that you were like, oh, damn, that was crazy.

[Lola Blanc]

Maybe the earth is flat?

[Renee Diresta]

Yeah, yeah.

Not so much the. Not so much the pseudoscience stuff. I've definitely found. I've definitely found stuff on YouTube where I've like followed accounts my Most fun one was it pushed me the Red Bull dancer style videos from worlds. I don't know if you guys know what that is, but it's this dance competition. I was like a street dance competition. And it pushed me this video and I was watching them and I was like, damn, they look like they're having so much fun. And I went and I found a couple more videos and then I wound up down this like street dance rabbit hole. I used to dance when I was in college and I'm like in my 40s now and I was like, oh my God, look at this, this is so great. And then it just sent me down this like, you know, rabbit hole maybe a year and a half ago now. And I was like, oh, this is fantastic. I have a new hobby.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Renee Diresta]

So I think like, you can, I mean, for stuff like that, it is like a. I show it to my kids. I'm like, look at these inspirational 16 year olds. You know.

If you practice, you know. But it's just the. I, I think again, there's like amazingly creative, incredible people who are producing extraordinary art. And like, that's what I want to see and that's what, that's what this stuff was intended to be. And I would like social to go back to being at least semi social same. I would be happy to make new friends in a normal group. I think. I just don't know how that would happen at this point. Point. Totally.

[Lola Blanc]

So yes, we, we rely on people, so we do need influencers to, you know, be speaking the truth. However, influencers are dependent on algorithms which are created and, you know, designed by tech companies which are owned by billionaires. So like, on the system level, are there solutions that have been shown to be effective, just briefly, in terms of like what social media companies can do or what regulation can do?

[Renee Diresta]

Governmentally, regulation is tough in the United States. I mean, the reality is like, platforms have the right to curate how they see fit. This is something that I think again, you would want to see an environment where in my opinion, there are a lot of platforms so that users can choose among them so that that lock in.

Isn'T quite so strong. So that kind of stranglehold is released. This was why when Blue sky and threads started, I thought, oh good, we have a little bit more options. Yeah, yeah, you can go. And then what I love about. Again, what I love about Blue sky is the tech. Like, I would love to see that model of, you know, shift your feed, have your ability to, to have more agency, to like, you know, just not be so tied in to what the platform wants you to see. Like, I wish that more people knew that existed and were using it. And I'd like to see that exist in more places. Europe is where you're actually seeing more of that regulation come into play. And that's because they just have different views of the First Amendment where it's not the content moderation piece. It's actually that even things like transparency is considered compelled speech. So there's certain things that the platforms can say, like you have to make the following disclosures and they'll say that in Europe, where the platforms have to provide a little bit more visibility into how algorithms work into users who have. Yeah, so users who have their content taken down have a right to appeal in Europe or users who have a. It's not to say the laws in Europe are great. You know, there's certain things I don't like about them, but there's just a little bit of a different way of thinking about that power and those trade offs. And I think they're also working much more on what's called interoperability, which would let you take your data and move, move it somewhere so that the lock in is less strong. So a lot of the time people will say like, well, if I leave Facebook, for example, I'm going to lose my, you know, 20 years or whatever, 15 years of post history, my photos, my friends, my this, my that. And so some of the questions are, would interoperability or data portability make it so that that stranglehold wouldn't be so tight, which maybe would make the platform a little bit more willing to do some more experimentation around things like custom feeds and stuff like that. So that's something that you're starting to see regulators in Europe looking at. They're also looking more at like business model and other kinds of other changes over there. So in the US I think it's just really hard to get anything done. This is partly just because the polarization here means that the Democrats and the Republicans just have very different visions for what social media should be. And that leads to a lot of tension around what they consider appropriate for governing it.

[Lola Blanc]

Also, corporations are allowed to lobby and those are the ones that are. They're basically making the art decisions for us.

[Renee Diresta]

I'll make one other point, which is that the fec, right, Federal Election Commission, the politicians themselves have not wanted to pass laws saying that like if an influencer is being paid to promote a candidate, you know.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Renee Diresta]

Certain things that like they have to disclose to you when they're promoting shoes. Right. They don't, you know, but there's like certain political communications where that just, you know, don't tell. Right. And so you should disclose that. Yeah. So I think that there's just different, different ways in which, you know, transparency laws here are really abysmal. And even that, I think would shift the incentives if the influencers had to make clear just how much money they were receiving in their political endeavors.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. If someone is being paid by a government to make a video about a candidate or an issue, I want to know who is paying them because that will inform whether or not I take that content seriously. I think that's incredibly important. Okay, well, anyway, do you have any final thoughts on propaganda disinformation and, or how we are all living in our own individualized algorithmic cults?

[Renee Diresta]

No. I think I really admire what you guys are doing. I mean, I've really enjoyed listening to your content on this. I think there's so much fascinating stuff. There's a book called When Prophecy Failed.

That I read back in the day when I started the research, just on this idea that it's a book about cults. It's a cult study in academia from a couple, gosh, I think the 1940s also. I think it was from around the same time as the, that study. 1950s. 1950s. And it was interesting. It's one of these ones where like, you know, the aliens are going to come. It's a doomsday cult and then the aliens don't come and then they just shift. Oh, we got the math wrong. The aliens are coming. Oh, you know, double later double Daniel.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Renee Diresta]

And what was, was fascinating to me as I, as I read that study was you just see this like the deep, the deep unwavering trust that just persists. And this is something that I think watching that dynamic play out in some of the guru style influencers is something that I, I really admire, you know, your ability to kind of connect the dots for people there. And so thanks for all the work that you're doing.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you.

[Renee Diresta]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Where do people find you?

[Renee Diresta]

So Rene, dearesta.com has all the various book links and stuff and then I am mostly threads, Instagram, Blue sky and yeah, Renee Diresta, or no Upside is my old Twitter handle which I still use on some platforms too.

[Lola Blanc]

Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Renee Diresta]

Thanks for having me.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Um, Lola, I'm gonna ask you a question today after part two of Renee, are you prepared?

[Lola Blanc]

I'm prepared.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Have you ever fell victim have you ever fell askew of some misinformation yourself?

[Lola Blanc]

I love these made up phrases saying.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Everything but what I. What I'm trying.

[Lola Blanc]

Um, of course we all have. I mean, I don't think that I necessarily can think of example, like big, dramatic, concrete examples off the top of my head, but I have so many times been on social media and seen a video or a photo or a tweet or whatever and been like, what? That's crazy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And. And then later either decided to Google it or often in the moment, now I just searched things right away, but later found out that it was just completely made up or it was completely taken out of context or, you know, it was like partially true or like representative of a thing that was happening, but not a video from that actual time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, partial truths are the most dangerous thing ever. Why can't people go back to just completely lying?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, just either make something up completely or tell the truth.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Then we might have some reference to be like, that's not true. But when it holds some truth, you're really making us do a lot of legwork as human beings.

[Lola Blanc]

It's confusing and we, like most of us, don't have the time to take on that cognitive burden to like fact check everything. And that is why I do think we should be holding these platforms more accountable for letting that stuff spread so much. And they are. And like, in fairness, there are some efforts that have been made and I, you know, and we talk a little bit about that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But more good efforts.

[Lola Blanc]

More good efforts. And laws. More laws. I think more laws is the. Is the big one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Absolutely.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. But anyway, now I'm at a point where I, like, I trust so little that if I see a news story or a news meme or something, if it makes me feel strong feelings, the first thing I do is look it up and make sure. Because so many times it's, you know, like mostly just honest mistakes from people sharing things that they think are real. You know, like, I'm so afraid to share something that is not accurate, even though it's bound to happen every now.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then, you know, while Renee is doing important work. We're so grateful she came back for part two. As always, remember to go rate us five stars if you have it within you. Also, we have merch out now, so go to exactlyrightstore.com and pick some up for Christmas hats, T shirts, what have you.

[Lola Blanc]

Hell yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, there goes another week. We'll see you next time. Remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and Never ever trust me.

[Lola Blanc]

Bye.

This has been an exactly right production.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hosted by me, Lola Blanc and me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Jiha Lee.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cottner.

[Lola Blanc]

Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Trust Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Lola Blanc]

You can find us on Instagram ust trust me podcast or on TikTok usmecult podcast.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief or manipulation? Shoot us an [e-mail] Listen to Trust.

[Lola Blanc]

Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Megan Elizabeth]

Nice.

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[Lowe's Advertiser]

Stay cozy, stay home and save big online during Lowe's December deal drops because honestly, why go anywhere when the deals come to you? Check this out. Lowe's is going to give you two free select tools from dewalt, Craftsman or Cobalt when you buy a select battery or combo kit. Yep, two tools free. It's basically a holiday miracle. Plus rewards members get free standard shipping all month long. Yet another reason not to leave your couch. Kick back, click around. Let the savings roll in. Shop new December deal drops on Lowe's.com every week this month. Fresh deals, cozy vibes, zero effort.

[Starbucks Advertiser]

It's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte, get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha together is the best place to be at Starbucks.