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Truth in the Barrel
Devil's Cut | Air Traffic Controller Speaks Out!
00:44:35
In this important episode of Truth In The Barrel, Amy McGrath chats with Air Traffic Controller Jonathan Stewart about the problems facing the FAA. Are they about to come to a head? Why is the equipment so antiquated? Stewart weighs in on how bad the...
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- [00:00]
Host
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Jonathan Stewart
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Host
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Jonathan Stewart
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- [00:18]
Host
Not available in all states.
- [00:20]
Jonathan Stewart
When the Moore family ditched cable Internet and switched to Sidly Fiber, they got so much more.
- [00:24]
Host
Mr. Moore got more upload speed for next level gaming and live streaming to the masses.
- [00:29]
Jonathan Stewart
With reliable service, Mrs. Moore is no.
- [00:31]
Host
Longer her family's IT guru, leaving her more time to stream games into overtime.
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Jonathan Stewart
Let's go.
- [00:36]
Host
And young Mason Moore got more done quickly uploading HD product demos and video conferencing.
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Jonathan Stewart
Without FreeSight, the numbers look good. Brad. You're on mute. Switch from cable Internet to Zibli Fiber and get more of what you love.
- [00:46]
Host
For $65 less per month than cable@zibly fiverr.com since the start of the Trump administration's second term, aviation in America has experienced a number of deadly incidents. A midair collision in January between a regional passenger jet flight flying into Washington D.C. and a military Blackhawk helicopter killed 67 people. Lots of near misses and Runway incursions have occurred. Additionally, we've seen multiple air traffic control equipment outages at several airports around the country. This has caused controllers on the ground to lose contact with the aircraft they were guiding. Last September, the GAO, that's the Government Accountability Office, reported that 51 of the FAA's 138 air traffic control systems are unsustainable. What is causing all of this and for how long has all of this really been going on? How bad is air traffic control equipment right now? Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy says the blame, quote, unquote, belongs with the last administration. Of course he says that. He says that Biden and his Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg, quote, did nothing to fix the system that they knew was broken. But the FAA has been understaffed and under resourced for many years. Over a decade, actually, through both Democratic and Republican administrations. The agency faces problems of antiquated technology and persistent air traffic control shortages. It doesn't make it easy to hire people when Republicans consistently try to undermine federal workers, undermine their pay, undermine their benefits. The Republicans push forward with government shutdowns all the time, government shutdown after government shutdown. And it doesn't make it easy to do this important critical job in aviation safety. Radical when it's Republicans that have kept more funding for the FAA and the ATC from actually happening. So let's shine a light on this a little bit. Secretary Duffy himself, before he was Trump's Transportation Secretary, was a member of Congress from 2012 to 2019. And while Duffy voted to authorize the standard amount of funding for the FAA during his time in Congress, in 2019, Duffy voted against the Transportation Appropriations bill that would have provided more funding for the faa, more funding to fix the problems that we now see today. Now, the House of Representatives at the time passed that bill, but the House was controlled by, you guessed it, Democrats. But what happened to that bill? Well, it went to the Senate. The Senate was controlled by, you guessed it, Republicans. And Mitch McConnell, of course, he killed the bill. That bill that would have provided more funding to fix the problems that we have and that we see today may not have fixed it completely, but would have helped a lot. Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy voted against it. McConnell killed the bill, never brought it to the floor. The bill died. No funding was ever allocated. Additionally, from what you see from the past few years. So don't buy into Secretary Duffy's blame for this on Joe Biden and Democrats. Here's the bottom line. If we want high quality, efficient and overall safe air travel in our country, we have to invest in it. We have to have members of Congress who don't lie to people, who don't tell them that we can always cut taxes and there will be no consequences. Your tax dollars go to having good quality air safety, something we all want, something we all need for business, for travel, and for our very lives. You can't keep shutting down the federal government and expect there to be no consequences. You can't keep squeezing federal agencies and federal workers and expect to recruit the type of quality that we need in these jobs. But to talk about this, today, we have an actual air traffic controller, someone who was front and center in the issues our country has been dealing with this year and in years past. Jonathan Stewart is a senior air traffic controller who works in the Newark, New York airspace and has been an air traffic controller for over 20 years. We're really excited to talk with him today. So welcome to Truth in the Barrel. This is Jonathan Stewart. Happy to have you with us.
- [05:57]
Jonathan Stewart
Thank you. Glad to be here.
- [05:59]
Host
Yeah. So today we're going to talk about all things air traffic control, which I know you know a lot about. The faa. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, we've spoke before, you came on about a little bit about what's happening around our country with some mishaps and, and things that are going on. But before we get into that, I really want to just ask you, Jonathan, why did you want to become an air traffic controller?
- [06:32]
Jonathan Stewart
Truthfully, I wanted to join the Marine Corps because I like the uniforms, right, Which I'm sure a lot of people can relate to. My brother in law was an air traffic controller though. And just to back up a little bit, I did construction and a bunch of other jobs before I became a controller. So I did, I've done every job I can think of. Food service, waiting tables, bartending bar, packing, washing dishes. At the time I was working about 100 hours a week doing construction in Florida. Framing to be specific. So I was darker than I am now. I was about a buck 45, 145 pounds because I didn't eat very much because I was poor. And I was like, man, I don't think I can do 100 hours a week like this for the foreseeable future because I would be so tired after a full 14, 16 hour day. I would come home and just like I fall asleep. I couldn't even eat because I was so exhausted. And I was, I can't do this. I mean, I'm like, I gotta join the military. And I was homeschooled. So that was a bit of a stumbling block initially because I had to get back. When I first tried to join, they said you had to have a high school diploma. And I'm like, but I have a ged. And they're like, yeah, that doesn't count. And I said, well, right, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna join the military because they were giving away $6,000 bonuses. And they're like, but only if you have a ged. I'm sorry, a high school diploma. I'm like, well, that's, you know, this is legal. It's, you know, whatever. I think I was like 17 at the time when I went in there. Anyway, so they passed the law a couple years later. I like wrote my congressman or something. I doubt I had anything to do with it, but I guess a bunch of people did. And finally they were like, that doesn't make any sense that they've completed, you know, high school, right? They should be able to join the military, so. And get the bonus. So I signed up for six years and joined. I joined the Air Force because my brother in law was Navy air traffic control. And he was like, bro, don't join the Marine Corps. He said, the Marines, the Navy and the army, pretty much everybody but the Air Force, they spend all their money on what they're supposed to spend their money on and they take care of their, their people last, if at all. Which is pretty true. I mean, their mission is, you know, to kill people and blow up, which they do very effectively. But in order to do that, like any, anything else, you have to take care of your people. That's your asset, your biggest asset. Right? But they don't, they see things that way and, you know, whatever. It is what it is. Um, so I joined the Air Force and the Air Force spends all their money on clubs and other bullshit. And then guys, we forgot to buy planes, they're like, oh, somebody called the Pentagon, you know, just like that. And that's pretty much exactly how they do it. And then he was also like, if you joined the Marines, you'll be divorced in a year. Said, okay, whatever, so I'll do it. So air traffic control sounded cool, so I studied up on a little bit. It doesn't mean anything if you don't, if you're not part of the aviation industry. I looked at the pilot controller glossary, which is basically like term definitions and shit like that. Yeah, my French. Can I curse on here? I don't know, whatever you can. Anyway, Doug can edit it out. My mother's always telling me, she said, you have such a good vocabulary. Why do you say all the time like, I don't know, and that's what it is. But anyway, so all that said to say. So I joined, I went through MEPs. I actually scored like 97 out of 100. And I was supposed to go into linguistics. So I took a test for that, which was really weird. And I did all of that shit before. They said, oh, by the way, you're not going to get the bonus. And then I just left MEPs and they're like, you can't do that. I said, watch me, I'm leaving. I didn't sign anything. So then when I finally went back again, I went to the Air Force recruiter and said, hey, I want to be an air traffic controller. And they're like, well, we can't guarantee anything. I said, well, the Marines can and the Navy can and the Coast Guard can and pretty much everybody but you can. So I'll just go to them. They're next door. And they're like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, maybe we can. Called my brother in law a year after I was in. I was like, hey, by the way, I'm divorced. Thanks for the advice. Air Force proud or chair force as the other guys call it. Yeah, but yeah, Air Traffic control is so much fun, man. And honestly, like, I think a lot, a lot of people, and I've said this on a couple different shows or networks, I guess, but if you're a gamer or wait tables or bartender or like chess or multitask, then this job is for you because you don't need any education. Like you don't even need a high school diploma. I don't think like, like they will train you out the gate. The FAA is hiring right now. And before we go any further, this is all my opinion, it just happens to be true. The FAA does not endorse it. I don't know what they, what they endorse. They have their own PR department that is doing something.
- [10:49]
Host
I'm sure a lot of air traffic controllers come from the military. So I mean, I, I, I was a Marine. I was a marine fighter pilot.
- [10:57]
Jonathan Stewart
Know that.
- [10:58]
Host
Yeah. So I, I flew out of Miramar. I was, thank you. I flew out of Miramar in California. Also F18s.
- [11:06]
Jonathan Stewart
Oh my God, that is amazing.
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Host
During this conversation we'll have some sea stories back and forth because I have some overseas air traffic control I'd love.
- [11:14]
Jonathan Stewart
To share with you about 13 different facilities in my 25 year career. It's funny that you mentioned being a pilot. So when I got out, because I had to get out, when I got out because the FAA had a hiring age of 31. So if I had reenlisted, I would have been over that age.
- [11:30]
Host
Yeah.
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Jonathan Stewart
I mean, granted they changed the hiring age to 36 now because you have to retire at 56. So 20 years of service at 56. So you can be 36 years old up to and including 36 years old now and still get hired as a controller, which is pretty goddamn good considering that's, you know, 18 years after your 18th birthday, you could still start a new career. And you know, everybody gives me shit for saying how much we make. It's public knowledge. Guys like, I don't understand, like these controllers watch half an interview and say, you said we make half a million dollars a year. And I'm like, first of all, that number was never mentioned. Second of all, Andrew Tangle was the one that mentioned it on the first interview for the Wall Street Journal. And thirdly, or C, if you can't count, it's all over the fricking public knowledge, man. Anybody can find it out if they want.
- [12:15]
Host
What you do is so important and it takes a lot of training, many, many years. Right.
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Jonathan Stewart
The amount of information that you have to memorize is as thick As a phone book. It's ridiculous. It is absolute. I used to. When I was advanced, Air Force base was my first real base. I would fall asleep listening to frequencies at night. This was back when we had tape recorders. Right. So there were. I can't remember exactly, but there was something like 120 different numbers that you had to know because you're a pilot. So you had Victor uniform and channelization for every frequency. And there's no method to the madness. There's no.
- [12:53]
Host
You just have to memorize it.
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Jonathan Stewart
Yeah. So the way I memorized it was numerically from highest to lowest. That's that. Because I have a bit of a photographic memory. And so much as if I write it down and look at it, I can remember it based on. But only if I write it with a pen. So it's basically like I can see the picture in my head, and that's how I'm able to recall information.
- [13:13]
Host
Well, being an air traffic controller, I always tell people, you know, as a pilot, we were so thankful for good air traffic controllers that knew what they were doing, because it's like a team. We're trying to keep each other safe, you know, rely on the. On the controllers.
- [13:32]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah. That was what made me so angry. And I'm still angry. And every time I talk about it just makes me angrier because safety is supposed to be paramount. All right? And that we take a lot of pride in our job and keeping it safe, all of us, from the level four or five, whatever it is. I don't remember because it doesn't matter to me that much, all the way to a level 12. Every single layer of controller from your. Your tiny ass facilities to your Newark, which is just a show from hell. You know, all of those guys do their best every day. Obviously, there's exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, we're type A personalities. We want to do the best we can every single day, you know, with what we have available. And obviously, your human factors come into play here. Same as with a pilot. You know, if your head's not in the game, you're not. You shouldn't be in that plane. Right.
- [14:20]
Host
Yeah.
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Jonathan Stewart
You know, if you're a threat, old lady, or in your case, I don't even know your significant other.
- [14:25]
Host
No, I hear you.
- [14:25]
Jonathan Stewart
You.
- [14:26]
Host
You got to be able to compartmentalize. You've got to be able. Got to be able to put that stuff aside and really focus on the job because it is. It is other people's lives at stake. But, you know, your training as a as an air traffic controller, it's a few years, and we currently have. And I'm interested to know what you think about this, but there's been a lot of reporting on the fact that we have an air traffic controller shortage. That part of the problem. There's many problems, and we'll talk about some of them that are going on right now within the aviation safety industry in. In our country. But one of the problems is we don't have enough air traffic controllers. So can you talk about why that is?
- [15:07]
Jonathan Stewart
Well, I've brought this up on a couple different interviews. So it's the same as with you pilots, right? Covid decimated everything, so everybody stopped training. We had a bunch of guys and gals in the pipeline for Newark when we were back in the 90, and all that training was stopped. Right. So some of those guys quit because they need to make money, right?
- [15:27]
Host
Yeah.
- [15:28]
Jonathan Stewart
Other ones of them went to Laguardia, Islip. The other areas that in 90. I don't know. I don't know why. Well, actually, I do know why. Another reason they did it was because they were stopping all the training because we were supposed to move to Philly, which made zero sense ever. So you stop training because we need more people. What, like, none of that made any sense at all, Right? So Covid decimated anybody that was able to retire. Retired on the pilot side and the controller side. People that were brand new couldn't afford to live, so they just went and did something else. We lost them. There were guys that went. Dod, Department of Defense, from the faa. We lost a lot of people. So Covid decimated us. And the decisions that were made as a result of COVID made it worse. Right? So everything that they've done from the beginning, it's all counterintuitive. It blows my mind. I laugh because it's so stupid, right? So I'm not naive enough to think that I have the whole picture, okay? So that's why I say I don't. You'll hear me say often, that's not my forte. That's not my wheelhouse. Somebody else's job, et cetera. That being said, it is somebody else's job, and they should do it, okay? To be fair, the person in charge of the ATO right now, their traffic organization is fairly new. All right? So I. I trust the man. You know, we have a good rapport, or as far as I'm aware, he's a very, very straightforward person. The issue is, as I said on Morning Joe, this was not created overnight.
- [16:54]
Host
Right?
- [16:55]
Jonathan Stewart
We Fixed overnight. That's not even logical. So when, when Mr. Duffy comes out, bless his heart, and says it's going to be fixed in October, that is not true in any way. It's not based in reality. The funny thing was I did Morning Joe on a Friday, all right? And I've noticed this after that. This may or may not be true, but if it's not, it's a hell of a coincidence. So I, I went on Morning Joe on Friday. He puts out a press release either Sunday or Monday. I forget which one, echoing some of the things that I said. And then coming up with a pretend timeline that everything's going to be good to go in October. Because what I said was, to fix this, you have to have a plan, right? It's not rocket science. You have a plan, you make it measurable, achievable, attainable, and have a freaking end date. Like, just like any project when you're in project management, right? You have tasks that have to be done in a certain order with a due date to make, you know, the project successful. You can't just make shit up, right? But.
- [17:55]
Host
Well, now that. Now there's a plan, but the timeline is.
- [17:58]
Jonathan Stewart
So I don't think there is a plan. Be perfectly fair, okay? I mean, there might. There might be a plan, but the timeline is not true. And here's the issue right there. There is no such thing as alternative truth. There's truth and there's bullshit. And when you say something's gonna be ready in October and you know it's bullshit, then you're lying, right? So just stop doing that. And somebody had made the comment before. They're like, when are you gonna stop doing podcasts and TV spots? I'm like, when you stop lying, basically.
- [18:23]
Host
Yeah. No, I mean, and that's one of the reasons I'm really glad that you're. You're talking to us because I, I've been critical of the current Secretary of Transportation. Not critical of him saying that we're gonna fix this problem, but critical of one blaming the last administration. That's kind of problems.
- [18:42]
Jonathan Stewart
That's counterproductive.
- [18:43]
Host
When, when he was the congressman. He was a congressman for many years and he actually voted against one of the bills that would beef up some of the funding and resources to the faa. What you said, though, is really important, is that this is long term. It's been going on for a while. It doesn't just. It's not just the air traffic control shortage, right? But it's also, Jonathan, the equip equipment.
- [19:10]
Jonathan Stewart
The Biggest issue, they have to fix the equipment. Which means when they sent the radar from N90 to Philly, they it up. There's no other way to put it. It's all up. That whole line needs to be severed and, and just called a loss, right. Sending it back to Newark to New York does nothing. Because when they made that switch over, anytime there's an incident at Newark, there's a similar incident in New York because of that lag. It's a data lag. They're sending data, okay, New York to filling. And when that becomes too much data, it overloads the system. There's a single point of failure on both ends, which again, single point of failure. And aviation don't make any sense, but whatever. Single point of failure, a modem on both ends. When that data becomes too much, it resets the system for 90 seconds. That's how it's designed. So you're sitting there not just wondering if you're going to have another outage, but knowing you will and wondering when.
- [20:02]
Host
So, Jonathan, so what you're seeing for everybody that's listening or watching, so what you're seeing as an air traffic controller is a screen or several screens, right? And the data that's coming in there, that's what you're talking about. And when the system gets overloaded, it just sort of shuts down and you're like blind.
- [20:19]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah, it reboots basically. Right. So that line, that data line for radar, I'm not sure what's going on with the Telco switch and all that shit with the audio, your comms. But you lose eyes, right?
- [20:32]
Host
Yeah.
- [20:33]
Jonathan Stewart
And it's okay to lose eyes if, if you have comms you can go non radar. There are procedures for that. Unfortunately, they don't teach them anymore because this shit's not supposed to happen. Yeah, it's happening. Okay, so the only way to. The only workaround to not fixing the equipment right now or in the interim until it is fixed, is to run a non radar operation. So the point 65, which is the air traffic control Bible, I haven't read it in about 25 years, but it's still pretty much the same. We had to memorize it in the Air Force, more or less. But there's a passage in there, the Bible, a passage in there that says you should use or can use or shall. It doesn't say shall. It says you can use non radar procedures in lieu of radar procedures if an operational advantage exists. Now, if I know my equipment is. Then I would think that would be an Operational advantage, would you not?
- [21:28]
Host
Right, right. Right.
- [21:29]
Jonathan Stewart
So the only way to work under these conditions safely is to work a hybrid radar and non radar thing, Right. You could still see these guys. So you can cut a couple of quarters, right. But you utilize non radar separation procedures and you write down call signs and instructions that you give them, which is what I was doing at the time of my incident. Right. And that way when you lose radar, because you are going to. As long as you have comms, you're good because.
- [21:52]
Host
Yeah.
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Jonathan Stewart
Find out where everybody is. Because all it is is report. You don't.
- [21:56]
Host
But when are air traffic controllers trained that way? Are they ready for that?
- [22:00]
Jonathan Stewart
They have to be trained.
- [22:01]
Host
Yeah. So.
- [22:02]
Jonathan Stewart
So that's not difficult. It's something that I'm sure the FAA and NACA would make it as difficult as possible because they like to collaborate. Right. So let's get a team of people together for like nine months to talk about something that we could discuss over an email. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. The point is it can be taught in a day, a single day. It's not rocket science. It's time and it's math. Right.
- [22:23]
Host
So it seems like you need to do that and we need to fix the equipment.
- [22:27]
Jonathan Stewart
But I'm saying right now, this is.
- [22:29]
Host
Why it's going to take a while, Right?
- [22:30]
Jonathan Stewart
Okay, Correct. But here's the thing, right? If you can't fix the equipment, which you can't, they could hire a contractor or get the military, one of the two, to run this like a combat operation. Shut that stupid shit down at Philly and set up a mobile radar anywhere. If it were me, I would set it up in the middle of Newark Airport, right in the infield. Right. I mean, it doesn't. The cat's out of the bag at this point, but if you wanted to make it not such a big deal, you could do it undercover at night and have a contractor do it. If you don't give a shit, send the military in, put out a bid, say this is what we need done. We need it done right now.
- [23:03]
Host
So you've been doing this job for over 20 years, right? Okay, So a long time. Has there ever been a time where you have seen serious safety issues?
- [23:17]
Jonathan Stewart
No way.
- [23:18]
Host
Like this. So we, we are, we are really at the sort of climax of like what you've seen as a controller.
- [23:24]
Jonathan Stewart
I believe that they think the probability of an accident is way lower than it actually is. The. The only alternative is not a good one.
- [23:34]
Host
Yeah.
- [23:34]
Jonathan Stewart
Because if you're willing to let an accident happen. There's a. There's a whole other issue going on. Right. If you think there's not an accident that's going to happen, then you're just stupid. And look at the data. All right? And again, I don't blame Duffy for anything. I don't blame Trump for anything, to be fair.
- [23:49]
Host
Right.
- [23:50]
Jonathan Stewart
If you want to blame somebody for the current air traffic control situation, blame Reagan and everybody in power after him, because nobody did dick. All right? That's just the truth they've had, since Reagan fired all those motherfuckers to fix this problem, and they haven't done anything effective. How about that? Yeah. The. My issue with the collaboration thing is the FAA and NACA get together and come up with these plans that don't make any sense and don't work, so they try to attract controllers. Okay. But you don't hire the right people. You hire people that are not able to do it. And that. That's where in 90 or New York, TRACON got the reputation of washing people out or firing people. Because if you send me people that can't do it, they're not going to make it.
- [24:30]
Host
Yeah.
- [24:31]
Jonathan Stewart
So you have to hire people that have a chance. And to his credit, the current ato, I guess, what is he, the coo, he took Tim Arrow's position. Anyway.
- [24:41]
Host
Okay.
- [24:42]
Jonathan Stewart
He is hiring people from tens, elevens and twelves, which are the top three, you know, levels of air traffic control, to do the job. And they're doing it better. You know, they're able to get checked out easier. Right, right. And able to do that, you have to incentivize people. And people don't want to work 60 hours a week to make.
- [24:58]
Host
Yeah, it's a hard job.
- [24:59]
Jonathan Stewart
You know, it's not. It's not just that you can't. You cannot leave work at work. You take it home. I'm about to get my third divorce. Is this third. I can't remember. I lose track. Whatever. The point is, all of your relationships suffer, right?
- [25:12]
Host
Yeah.
- [25:13]
Jonathan Stewart
Girlfriends, wives, boyfriends, husbands. But the point is, all of it suffers, and they suffer as much or more than we do because we have to deal with this massive amount of stress. Then we come home and. You know, when I come home after a rough day, I either want to punch a wall if I had a really bad day, or just sit in the corner and stare at a wall for about 15 minutes and not talk to anybody. I'm sure you've had similar situations when you flew, if you had a really rough sortie, you know, you just talk to anybody, right.
- [25:41]
Host
It's very hard. And I mean I had my fighter pilot days were before I was married for the most part and before, before I had children. I think it would be very difficult to do the type of high spe flying dangerous, dangerous stuff and deal with. I mean I didn't, I only had was a dog at the time and, and that was great, you know, and just a little bit of stress but not, not enough. I was able to focus on the job like 100%. But I look back at ATC, we had problems with ATC and air traffic controllers back when I flew which was.
- [26:21]
Jonathan Stewart
Over 10 years carrier mostly are.
- [26:24]
Host
I did, I qualified on carriers, but I flew the, mostly the two seat version, the F18 Delta which was land based during our combat.
- [26:35]
Jonathan Stewart
You flew out of Miramar, right, I flew that.
- [26:38]
Host
I was based out of Miramar, but I did training, you know, everywhere from Texas. I did my carrier quals off the coast of Florida. I was stationed at Virginia beach for a while. So kind of all over the place.
- [26:48]
Jonathan Stewart
So Navy air traffic controllers and Marine air traffic controllers, they do things differently. They have the 0.65 but they also have their own regs. And it has been my experience, and this is not across the board by any stretch of the imagination, but the army, the Navy and the Marine Corps with very few exceptions work lower level traffic like helicopters and carriers and shit like that. Doesn't really translate very well into the civilian world. You have Camp Pendleton, which does some good stuff. You have Marine Corps Base Yuma. Yeah, I was at MCAS 29 palms.
- [27:27]
Host
Okay.
- [27:28]
Jonathan Stewart
So I did range control out there and actually liaised. Is that the right word? Yeah.
- [27:33]
Host
When did you do range control at 29 palms? And hold on, because I, I flew. I did a lot of what we call caxes.
- [27:43]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah, I know what they are.
- [27:44]
Host
Combined air exercises. I did a lot of that.
- [27:47]
Jonathan Stewart
Did you do a lot of cast as well close air support?
- [27:49]
Host
Oh yeah. I was probably up and you were, you were doing controlling for me probably during that time.
- [27:54]
Jonathan Stewart
So out they have air controllers out at Bear mats, what they call it? The range control.
- [27:58]
Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:59]
Jonathan Stewart
So they have controllers out there, Air controllers is what they call them. That's why I got sent out there actually is because they're not certified air traffic controllers, which they don't need to be. Right. But the Air Force would come in and they would do an ifr. They call it a composite flight plan. They would fly an ifr. They would cancel IFR go into the range. Right.
- [28:17]
Host
So for Those listening. IFR is instrument flying. Okay. Yeah. And so you're flying on instruments, and then you cancel that and then you go and you fly based on your eyes and what you see.
- [28:28]
Jonathan Stewart
Correct. Yeah, sorry about that. I forget sometimes. Yeah. So. But anyway, so what happened is a bomber came in and said, told the air controller, I'm ready to rtb, return to base. And what he meant was, I want to pick up my IFR flight plan and fly back to wherever I came from. So the controller, air controller, the Marine just said, roger. And the pilot, the Air Force pilot said, okay, copy that. I guess I'm. IFR takes off and just climbs right through some LAX traffic.
- [28:54]
Host
Oh, yeah.
- [28:55]
Jonathan Stewart
FAA was like, what the.
- [28:57]
Host
Yeah.
- [28:57]
Jonathan Stewart
What is happening right now? So I got sent down there to set up a letter of agreement between bearmat, Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, and the faa because they all, you know, were an issue with each other. So I wrote up a letter of agreement. I worked for a lady out there called Terry Finch, retired Marine, one of probably the best person I've ever worked for. Like, I mean, she was just on point, professional.
- [29:19]
Host
Yeah.
- [29:19]
Jonathan Stewart
Like, took zero and did exactly what she said she was going to do. So, I mean, sounds like a Marine to me. Yeah. I mean, just 100. Just on point, man.
- [29:29]
Host
Yeah.
- [29:30]
Jonathan Stewart
And she supported everything that I. I needed. And we were able to talk like you and I are talking. Right. So there was no. There was no. Because I. Technically, I was loaned out to her from the Navy, so I worked for Space and Naval. Space and Naval Warfare Command. Spay war. So I was loaned out from the Navy to her. So I didn't technically work for. And some of the people that, you know, had issues or whatever. I don't work for you. I don't give a shit, man. What's the mission? Like? What are we trying to do here?
- [29:54]
Host
Well, it's. So for those people listening, the airspace that, you know, you look up in the sky and you're like, well, there's not a lot up there. There is a lot of. It's segmented airspace. It changes depending on what's going on. It can change based on the weather in terms of the control of the aircraft. The Southern California airspace is one of the busiest airspaces in the world. Why? Because you have San Diego, a major airport. You have Los Angeles, lax, one of the busiest airports in the world, on the commercial side. But then you have all of these military bases and all of these ranges, not only in the desert themselves, bombing ranges, but also off the coast in the Pacific. So it's just. And then you have all the general aviation going on in Southern California. I mean, all these little podunk airports around there. So it's very, very busy. I grew to really appreciate air traffic control. I remember going through flight school and then getting sent out to Miramar to be in the F18, what we call the Fleet Replacement Squadron for a. You're sort of a student of the F18. And in that capacity, they took us over to TRADOC San Diego. I forget what the name it was, but it was basically the aircraft control facility for the terminal radar control. Thank you. Yes. And you got to see all of the equipment, all of the screens, and really got to watch basically, what you do from a pilot's perspective. Watch what you do, how fast you talk, what screens you're looking at, what. What things you're doing with your fingers and keying the mics. It's really. And I know that, you know, it's a tough job, and we've talked about that, but it's actually a really cool job, too. You're doing some really cool stuff. Right.
- [31:51]
Jonathan Stewart
That was. Honestly, that was the biggest disappointment for me, was we may as well get into this now. I didn't want to end my career like that, but I didn't want to end my career with a midair either. I don't think anybody wants that on their conscience. I mean, unless you're a sociopath, which I don't know. Whatever. Anyway, point is that I was put in a position where it's guaranteed to fail. I don't appreciate it, and there's going to be repercussions. It's not a threat. I already told them what I was going to do. That is what it is. Right. So you basically end my career for me because now I can't go back. Because you could say whatever you want to about whistleblower protection. That's all bullshit. They will find a reason to fire you, and it will be legal and legit, and then you will have nothing. So where we are right now in aviation is this. We have a controller shortage. We have a pilot shortage. We have an aging infrastructure. Right. It doesn't matter whose fault it is. That is just stupidity. Stop it with the politics. Nobody gives a. All right? Fix it. Yeah, you're in charge. Fix it.
- [32:47]
Host
I do want to bring it back a little bit to the politics of this because I 100% agree with you, and. Excuse me, I got this thing going on my throat. I am. It's been very upsetting to me. To see the current administration blame the previous administration for the faults that have been going on for decades.
- [33:11]
Jonathan Stewart
But that's every administration. Every administration does.
- [33:14]
Host
True. And in addition, the current administration had a first administration.
- [33:19]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah, I know.
- [33:20]
Host
Prior to that. And so we need to focus on how do you fix this?
- [33:25]
Jonathan Stewart
But again, that's my point. That is my entire point that I've.
- [33:28]
Host
Been trying to say to people is we need resources to fix it. And resources require make that you're not cutting taxes to the degree where you're shrinking these agencies so they don't have enough resources to go out and get, as you say, Jonathan, the right people to be air traffic controllers, the right equipment to make our skies safe. You can't keep shutting down the government and expecting good people to go into government. The FAA is government.
- [34:01]
Jonathan Stewart
That's another reason that I'm medically retiring. I don't want to do this for these clowns anymore. Like, it's just, number one, it's not safe. Number two, I don't trust them. Then number three, the politics are just ridiculous. Like this with Elon Musk told us, send us five bullets of what you did this week. How about you off and send me five bullets what you did this week, buddy. How about that? Totally, guy.
- [34:21]
Host
I always felt like that was a slap in the face to everybody that's working in the federal government.
- [34:25]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah. You know, 100 was. And that never should have happened. But it is what it is. Right. So again, you have to look at this plain devil's advocate here and the whole Occam's Razor principle. Right. Either they're this stupid, like this uninformed, or they're doing it with a purpose, which is a whole different rabbit hole to go down. So either you're completely ignorant and you're just up, which I've been in the government a long time and I believe that to be the case. Or there's some master plan and you're just letting everything get up. You know, who knows, man? But the point is, I mean, we've.
- [34:58]
Host
All been talking about that. I certainly hope that they're not going in that direction with regards to aviation safety. And it appears that. Well, yeah, I mean, because, I mean, what are they going to do? Privatize everything? I don't know.
- [35:11]
Jonathan Stewart
I don't think that's. I don't think that's the goal. Yeah, but that being said, privatized means there's going to be a contractor involved or multiple contractors involved, multiple companies. NACA has said from the get go, they're going to be pissed about this one. But whatever they want to see at the table, if they privatize. Right. So they're meaning they want to be part of the in crowd. Okay. I feel like they've settled for a seat under the table.
- [35:42]
Host
My feeling on the privatization, this goes all the way back to like privatizing the VA too, is that there are certain functions of government that should not be private.
- [35:51]
Jonathan Stewart
Correct.
- [35:51]
Host
The private industry is there to make money.
- [35:54]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah. Yes.
- [35:56]
Host
How do they make money? A lot of times they cut costs. They cut things. Aviation safety. Aviation safety, exactly. That we, we send off to the lowest bidder.
- [36:08]
Jonathan Stewart
I 100 agree. And even if it's the highest bidder, that's not even the point. Right. You're trying to save money is what they keep saying over and over and over. If you want to save money, privatization is not how you do it.
- [36:20]
Host
No.
- [36:20]
Jonathan Stewart
Right. But people, the biggest issue that NACA has had, to the best of my knowledge, and I'm not quoting naca, so nobody get all up in arms and send me an email. They want a consistent and reliable income stream for air traffic control, for the faa, for the air traffic organization in general. That's not halted every time we have to have a budget appropriation type thing. Right. So it's considered discretionary spending or something to that effect. It's not budgeted for. That makes zero sense. So when you don't have a budget, how do you plan for anything? How do you replace agent equipment? How do you replace control?
- [36:57]
Host
Yeah. This is, this is a problem that we have in our government. And then you add on the shutdowns. Every, every time the Republicans get, get upset, they, they take it out on, on the federal government, which is you, which is our air traffic control, which is them also. Yeah, it's crazy.
- [37:15]
Jonathan Stewart
But here's, here's the issue I have with politics as we're talking about it. Right. Nobody spends millions of dollars to get a job that pays less than half a million.
- [37:24]
Host
But before we end, because this has been a fantastic conversation. But before we end, I really want to remind people though, and, and I'd be interested in your opinion.
- [37:34]
Jonathan Stewart
Sure.
- [37:35]
Host
I have. I've flown all around the world and I didn't fly in the commercial sense, but I flew through the military and we, I've dealt with controllers from all different. In Asia and Middle east and Europe and you name it, American airspace in my mind, from what I've seen, has the best controllers. And I'll tell you a quick C story. When I was in the Middle East. The Middle East. I was out of Al Jaber in Kuwait, and I remember they're not used to IFR conditions there. It's very sunny every day, very hot. And we had a lot of aircraft trying to all get back because a sandstorm hit.
- [38:23]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah.
- [38:24]
Host
And as the sandstorm hit right over the base, all of these aircraft that were doing, I think we were doing practice missions in the run up for the first Iraq war, the Operation Iraqi Freedom, and we all start to try to come into the base and the controllers just had. They were overwhelmed. They didn't know what to do. They had so many aircraft under IFR conditions, they'd never done it. And I remember the controller, Middle Eastern controller, in this sort of Middle East, British accent, saying, just basically giving up. Because when we asked for control back to the. Get into the pattern there to land, which you couldn't get into the pattern because it was a sandstorm, he said, oh, well, keep eye out. Lots of planes in the area. Keep eye out. We no longer can control the. Too many plane.
- [39:24]
Jonathan Stewart
Wow.
- [39:26]
Host
The worst thing you can hear as a pilot is, what do you mean, too many plane? I can't see anything.
- [39:34]
Jonathan Stewart
I took a, I took a fan flight back when the FAA was still doing this, which just a quick jog on that, man. Every controller should fly in an airplane as often as possible in the cockpit and see what's actually going on. Every pilot.
- [39:48]
Host
Yeah.
- [39:49]
Jonathan Stewart
Go to wherever their home base is, whoever they control. Like, if you fly out of lax, go there and see what those guys do. Just. It just gives you a little more empathy for somebody on the other side of the mic.
- [39:58]
Host
Yep.
- [39:59]
Jonathan Stewart
And not only that, but it helps you understand. So, you know, when I'm in the cockpit and we're. We're sterile until we hit 10,000ft. Right. I see all the stuff going on in the cockpit and I understand why. You know, I see the pilot, controller telling the pilot one thing. He reads it back and he reads it to his co pilot who reads it back to him, so on and so forth. Right. So I see the workload. So it makes me a little more patient as a controller when, you know, they take off and I can hear it in their voice. They're under a lot of high, high load, high workload. Right. But yeah, we should definitely bring that back. The point was you were talking about controllers saying things. I was flying into, shit, Charleston, I think. No, not Charleston. It doesn't matter. Somewhere in the Carolinas, the controller says something and then the pilot responded to him. There's like silence for a while. And then he comes back, he's like, I'm sorry, what did you say? I wasn't paying attention. I'm like, oh my God. Why would you say that to a pilot? And the father was like, is this normal? I'm like, nope, that's not normal.
- [40:58]
Host
Yeah, yeah, well, we do, we do still have very safe, you know, in comparison to the rest of the world. And like I said, I've flown everywhere, even up in, into the former Soviet republic's area, in like Tahikistan, Uzbekistan. I mean, we're, we're doing okay. It's just we have a lot of work we have to do.
- [41:21]
Jonathan Stewart
The, the issue is this, right? Okay. So statistically speaking, it's the safest way to travel. So if anything happens. Statistically speaking. Sorry, I just got tongue tied. It's not going to be the safest way to travel anymore. So we need to make sure nothing happens. Because if we have a major accident, if it's IFR conditions, instrument flight rules, conditions at Newark and they lose radar and radios, TCAs take the wheel because there is nothing that controller can do. Yeah, that's, that's my concerns. We're rolling up into wintertime, right?
- [41:56]
Host
Yeah. For everybody is, is a collision warning.
- [42:01]
Jonathan Stewart
System that you have, so terrain collision avoidance system. Right. Last, last second traffic collision avoidance system. Yeah. So. Yeah, but it does work, but it's not perfect. I've seen TCAs tell pilots to climb into an airplane that was above them and the other way around. So it. People have asked me before, can't AI do this? Sure. As long as you're happy with 99% effective rate. The issue is that 1%, a lot of people die. So the stakes are so high that we can't have a computer doing it unless we can say with certainty that 100% of the time it's going to be okay. There's just a lot of nuances, a lot of stuff that I can hear the tone of your voice as a pilot and, and understand that there's something going on. Right. You don't even have to say anything if you, if you say, hey, give me a second, I can hear the tone of your voice, that there's something wrong. A computer can't do that. Not yet.
- [42:56]
Host
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:57]
Jonathan Stewart
They ever be able to. Who knows? I'm not Elon Musk. Thank God, that guy. But yeah, so you. We do need competent controllers to work. We need to pay them what they're worth, which if you look at how, what they made in the 80s and how inflation's gone up since then. They're doing about a 30% raise. At least. At least. Because nobody should have to work 60 hours a week to afford a decent style of living. When the amount of stress that you have. If I could work 40 hours a week and make. When I make working 60, you'd have a family, you'd have a life. Right? When you work 60 hours a week, you have no life. There is no life. It doesn't matter. If you pay me $10 million a year, it won't matter because I'm not going to be able to enjoy it.
- [43:36]
Host
And we can't do that to people. I mean, these are the people that are controlling the skies.
- [43:40]
Jonathan Stewart
They are.
- [43:41]
Host
You know, we need to get this under control.
- [43:43]
Jonathan Stewart
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Host
I just so appreciate you speaking out.
- [43:46]
Jonathan Stewart
I really appreciate the invitation, you know.
- [43:48]
Host
Being willing to get out there because there's a lot of people right now that, that are, aren't will in many sectors, not just faa, atc, but in many sectors, unwilling to kind of stand up and speak out.
- [44:01]
Jonathan Stewart
Well, there's a need that. There's a book that I peruse. My brother actually gave it to me, and it's called the Courage to Not Be Liked. All right. Everybody likes to be liked, myself included. Right. I'm a pretty egotistical guy, I'll admit that. Right. And I like to be liked just like anybody else. I'm still human. Right. There's people that don't like me right now at all. A lot. Like, a lot, a lot. Because I'm speaking truth to their. Or I'm speaking truth to their. And they are not talking at all because they, number one, don't have the balls to do it or they'd rather somebody else do it, like me. That way when I say something they agree with, they can piggyback on it. And when I say something they don't agree with, they just say, oh, he doesn't speak for us.
- [44:39]
Host
Right.
- [44:39]
Jonathan Stewart
I'm doing their job for them, as far as I see it, because it's plausible deniability.
- [44:46]
Host
You are the kind of guest that is exactly why we started this show Truth in the Barrel.
- [44:51]
Jonathan Stewart
Glad to be.
- [44:51]
Host
Because we saw that. We just want real people to come forward and tell the truth about what is happening, get away from the bullshit. And some of the truth may fit your. Your perceived narrative and a lot of it won't, but we're going to tell it the way it is, no matter what. So I, I really appreciate you coming on, talking about this important issue.
- [45:12]
Jonathan Stewart
100%.
- [45:14]
Host
All right. Thank you, Jonathan.
- [45:16]
Jonathan Stewart
All right, take care.