Truth in the Barrel Podcast Episode Summary
Title: Devil's Cut | Domestic Terrorism
Release Date: August 5, 2025
Hosts: Amy McGrath & Denver Riggleman
Guests: Bruce Hoffman & Jacob Ware
Book Discussed: God's Guns and Far Right Terrorism in America by Bruce Hoffman and Jacob Ware

Introduction

In the "Devil's Cut | Domestic Terrorism" episode of Truth in the Barrel, host Amy McGrath engages in a profound discussion with Bruce Hoffman and Jacob Ware, co-authors of God's Guns and Far Right Terrorism in America. Both Hoffman and Ware are esteemed scholars specializing in terrorism studies, bringing decades of expertise to dissect the evolving landscape of domestic terrorism in the United States.

Defining Domestic Terrorism

Colonel McGrath opens the discourse by emphasizing that while the U.S. is relatively fortunate compared to other nations, it is not immune to domestic terrorism. She notes historical instances like the KKK, Aryan Nation, and lone wolf attacks such as the Oklahoma City bombing, underscoring that domestic terrorism spans the political spectrum.

Bruce Hoffman clarifies the definition:

"Terrorism is violence or the threat of violence calculated to achieve far-reaching political change. It’s a strategy of intimidation and coercion directed against the government and broader society." (02:28)

He asserts that both legal and scholarly definitions of domestic terrorism align closely, despite the subjective nature of the term.

Far Right vs. Far Left Terrorism

Colonel McGrath points out the common public perception that all terrorists are extremists, often blurring the lines between far right and far left motivations.

Jacob Ware elaborates:

"Far right terrorism seeks to protect or defend real or perceived hierarchies in society... In contrast, far left extremists aim to dismantle these hierarchies." (04:28)

This distinction is crucial in understanding the underlying motivations and targets of different extremist groups.

Accelerationism and Ideological Convergence

Bruce Hoffman introduces the concept of accelerationism:

"Both extremes are convinced that the system is fundamentally corrupt and believe that a series of violent actions will eventually overthrow the government and remake the United States." (06:14)

He references The Turner Diaries as a blueprint for this strategy, illustrating how extremist actions can inspire a domino effect of similar attacks.

The Role of Firearms in Far Right Terrorism

Jacob Ware discusses the pivotal role firearms play:

"Firearms have empowered individuals who may not have formal training to commit acts of violence, especially with the proliferation of information via social media." (22:15)

He emphasizes that in countries like Canada and European nations, arms control is a primary counterterrorism strategy, a measure the U.S. has yet to effectively implement.

The Intersection of Religion and Far Right Ideology

The podcast delves into the religious underpinnings of far right terrorism:

"In the 1980s, organizations like the Aryan Nations infused religious rhetoric to justify racism and anti-Semitism, framing their ideology as a divine mandate." (25:49)

Bruce Hoffman explains the transition from overtly religious motivations to more secular yet still ideologically driven agendas, noting that while religious references remain, the movement has diversified its justifications for violence.

Research Methodology

The guests discuss their research approach, primarily relying on archival studies and analysis of manifestos and trial transcripts:

"We trawled online chat rooms and mined primary source documents to trace ideological developments and tactical trends." (29:28)

Their collaborative work bridges historical data with contemporary social media dynamics, offering a comprehensive view of domestic terrorism's evolution.

Recent Trends and Incidents

Addressing recent attacks, Jacob Ware highlights the emergence of ideological convergence and nihilistic violent extremism:

"Individuals are committing violence driven more by hatred of society itself rather than coherent political or religious ideologies." (33:22)

This unpredictability poses significant challenges for counterterrorism efforts, as the motives become less clear and more chaotic.

Countermeasures and Solutions

In their book, Hoffman and Ware propose a multi-faceted approach to counter domestic terrorism:

1. Short-term Measures: Strengthen Regulatory Frameworks

   • Legislation: Enact specific domestic terrorism laws.
   • Section 230 Reformation: Update the Communications Decency Act to hold social media platforms accountable.

     "We argued that in an era dominated by platforms like YouTube and TikTok, the existing laws were obsolete." (36:22)

2. Medium-term Measures: Rebuild Civil Society

   • Digital and Media Literacy: Educate the public to recognize and combat extremist propaganda.

3. Long-term Measures: Promote National Unity

   • Generational Change: Foster a culture of understanding and unity to diminish ideological divides.

Bruce Hoffman expresses concern over the implementation feasibility:

"In a highly divided Congress and society, the practicality of realizing these recommendations is fairly dim." (36:22)

Challenges in Implementation

The conversation reveals significant obstacles in enacting the proposed solutions:

• Political Polarization: Bipartisan agreement is difficult to achieve, hindering legislative progress.
• Erosion of Deterrence: Recent pardons post-January 6th have weakened the societal deterrence against political violence.
• Normalization of Violence: There's a growing acceptance of political violence as a legitimate means of expression, alarming 40% of Republicans and Democrats according to their data.

  "When 40% of Americans believe that violence against the other is justified, it is anti-democratic and opposed to democracy." (42:13)

Hope Amidst Challenges

Despite the grim outlook, Hoffman finds solace in historical resilience:

"The U.S. overcame the deep divisions and xenophobia of the 1920s after the Great Depression and unified post-9/11, demonstrating our capacity to surmount crises." (45:04)

He cites the unity shown after September 11, 2001, as a beacon of hope, believing that a similar bipartisan commitment could restore national cohesion.

Conclusion

Colonel McGrath underscores the importance of awareness and education in combating domestic terrorism, urging listeners to engage with the discourse:

"We need to talk about these things because knowledge is the first step toward change." (40:53)

She encourages the audience to read God's Guns and Far Right Terrorism in America to gain deeper insights and supports the critical work of Hoffman and Ware in addressing this pressing issue.

Bruce Hoffman and Jacob Ware conclude by reiterating the urgency of addressing domestic terrorism and the necessity of implementing their proposed solutions to safeguard American democracy.

Notable Quotes:

• Bruce Hoffman (02:28):

  "Terrorism is violence or the threat of violence calculated to achieve far-reaching political change."

• Jacob Ware (04:28):

  "Far right terrorism seeks to protect or defend real or perceived hierarchies in society... Far left extremists aim to dismantle these hierarchies."

• Bruce Hoffman (06:14):

  "Both extremes are convinced that the system is fundamentally corrupt and believe that a series of violent actions will eventually overthrow the government."

• Jacob Ware (22:15):

  "Firearms have empowered individuals who may not have formal training to commit acts of violence."

• Bruce Hoffman (25:49):

  "The religious underpinnings of far right terrorism have evolved but remain a significant element."

• Jacob Ware (33:22):

  "Individuals are committing violence driven more by hatred of society itself rather than coherent ideologies."

• Bruce Hoffman (36:22):

  "In a highly divided Congress and society, the practicality of realizing these recommendations is fairly dim."

• Jacob Ware (42:13):

  "When 40% of Americans believe that violence against the other is justified, it is anti-democratic."

• Bruce Hoffman (45:04):

  "The U.S. overcame the deep divisions of the 1920s and unified post-9/11, demonstrating our capacity to surmount crises."

This episode of Truth in the Barrel serves as a critical examination of the state of domestic terrorism in America, highlighting the predominance of the far right in violent extremism and outlining strategic approaches to mitigate this existential threat. Through the expertise of Hoffman and Ware, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities and urgent measures needed to protect the nation's democratic fabric.