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Truth in the Barrel
Devil's Cut | In Conversation With Nicole Malachowski
00:43:08
On this week’s Devil’s Cut episode, Amy and Denver have an incredible conversation with a Former White House Fellow that also happens to be the very first female Thunderbird Pilot Ret. Col. Nicole Malachowski. The interview covers everything from...
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- [00:00]
Nicole Malachowski
FOREIGN.
- [00:04]
Amy McGrath
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Truth in the barrel. I'm Amy McGrath with my co host, Denver Riggleman. And today we have the Devil's Cut episode with a very, very special guest, Nicole Malachowski, the first woman Thunderbird pilot in the United States Air Force. Among many other amazing things she's done, I cannot wait to talk with her.
- [00:31]
Nicole Malachowski
Well, good morning, everybody. Thanks so much for having me. It's a joy to be here.
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Denver Riggleman
Good morning. We're so happy to see you.
- [00:38]
Amy McGrath
Happy to see you, too. Well, we have a lot to talk about today. And first of all, Nicole, it's just an honor to get to meet you and talk with you. I've known about you and seen you for many, many years as somebody who was a woman in the armed forces, it's just wonderful to get a chance to get to know you a little bit more.
- [01:00]
Nicole Malachowski
Well, the same right back to you. I've been obviously following your career and I think our military careers indeed were very parallel.
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Amy McGrath
They were. And of course, you have a lot in common with Denver, who also was in the Air Force for many years.
- [01:13]
Nicole Malachowski
Indeed.
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Denver Riggleman
Yeah. I can't wait to talk to you about Seymour Johnson, too. That was our sister wing from out in home Air Force Base when we were the Air Expeditionary Wing. But I think I'm older, so I'm much older, I think, Nicole.
- [01:24]
Nicole Malachowski
So I don't know about, I don't know about much older DENVER well, before.
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Amy McGrath
We jump into it, I do want to tell our listeners a little bit about you, Nicole, because and I'm not going to go through the whole bio, but I want to let everybody know something about being in the military. For those of us that have been in the military, we sort of read bios and we look at them and we can tell it almost immediately. Is this person the real deal or not? And I have to tell you, reading your bio, it is just incredible. Like my head exploded. I was like, wow, this person is no kidding, the real deal. Top in her class at the Air Force Academy, flew not only F15s but also F16s. And for those of you who aren't fighter pilots, that's kind of a big deal to fly two different types of of fighter planes and then to go on in your career to be a commander, to be a White House fellow, to be at the top of your class at the Naval War College. I mean, it is just incredible. And all of those things I have to ask because you have flown both the F15 and the F16, which at the time that you flew Them were the best that the Air Force had in terms of fighter planes. Right?
- [02:45]
Nicole Malachowski
They were. They. They definitely were at the time.
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Amy McGrath
Which one, which one was better? Which one did you like to fly better?
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Nicole Malachowski
I get asked this question a lot and it's a totally reasonable question. I often say it's a little bit like apples and oranges though, because the F15E Strike Eagle is the jet I began my career in. That's the jet that I flew operationally. I led my peers in combat in that jet. It's a. It's always going to be, if you will, my first love. The F16 itself was certainly a heck of a lot of fun to fly, but I only flew that during the air show season with the Thunderbirds. So I never really knew how to fly the F16 as a complete weapon system. So at the end of the day, I'm always going to say the F15E Strike Eagle. Also, you know, my husband was a weapons systems officer, so if I hadn't flown Strike Eagles, I wouldn't have met him.
- [03:30]
Amy McGrath
Oh, awesome.
- [03:32]
Denver Riggleman
Did you meet your husband when he was a wizard, when you guys were in training or something like that?
- [03:36]
Nicole Malachowski
That's a funny story. Actually met, yes, indeed. We met in my very first fighter squadron, which was at the 492nd Fighter Squadron at RAF Lakenheath out there in the United Kingdom. And as I was going through combat mission ready, this is when I met him. I flew one. I flew one sortie with him. He was a brand new instructor and this was well before we started dating. But it's kind of funny because I remember looking at his last name and I couldn't pronounce it. I'm like Malachowski, Malachi. And I used to make fun of his last name. Little did I know I would take that name. And I've been living with it for 24 years as Malachowski. But also I actually failed the ride for going for going supersonic over Land's End. So my husband.
- [04:19]
Denver Riggleman
Ah, you broke some air. Oh my gosh. I love it.
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Nicole Malachowski
It was.
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Denver Riggleman
I love it.
- [04:23]
Nicole Malachowski
It was embarrassing and a embarrassing story to tell. But at the end of the day, it's kind of funny. My maiden name was Ellingwood, married name is Malachowski. And so on that grade sheet, there's an Ellinwood and a Malachowski and a grade in red ink. So I did that sortie again.
- [04:38]
Denver Riggleman
That's fantastic. I was going to say Nicole. A buddy of mine got his call sign Rachel because he actually went supersonic over Rachel. You know, out there outside of Nellis.
- [04:48]
Nicole Malachowski
Absolutely.
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Denver Riggleman
So he got. He got his call sign because he broke those. That. That air rag. So did you. Did you. Did you get a call sign from that, or where did you get your call sign from?
- [04:58]
Nicole Malachowski
Well, I didn't get a call sign from that specific event, but as you know, call sign are an amazing fighter pilot tradition.
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Amy McGrath
Right.
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Nicole Malachowski
You get those when.
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Denver Riggleman
Yes.
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Nicole Malachowski
Squadron is ready to fly with you in war. And of course, there's no higher compliment than someone saying, I want you to be my wingman. The other thing call signs do is they're always making fun of somebody. Right. A mistake. You made a personality quirk. Something like that. And my call sign, which of course striked fear in the hearts of enemies everywhere, was Fifi. Fifi. And I'll be honest, the full story is certainly not safe for work. So I'm going to spare. Spare the podcast here. I promise someday I'll write the full story, either full story in my book. But as Amy can probably recall, you know, when you start flying as a woman in the fighter squadron in the 90s, right. I was 23 years old, 23 pounds lighter. I walked into that squadron and the guys were like, what the heck is this? Right? Is, is she strong enough? Is she confident enough? Is she going to brush up, mess up the bro culture? And so during that year that I was getting combat mission ready, I just was really hard on myself, was trying really hard, you know, to. To fit in, I think, and to be the best wingman that I could be. And essentially, at the end of it, the guys were like, you know, you're kind of like this cute little Fifi poodle, but if people bend down to pet you, they'll attack. You'll attack. That's great side story. The actual details are a little more off color.
- [06:17]
Denver Riggleman
I get it.
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Amy McGrath
That's great. What's the name of your book?
- [06:20]
Nicole Malachowski
I don't have my book right now. I'm working on it. I don't have any yet. But I will tell you, I am working on a book that's very important to me that is not about me. It's about the women Air Force service pilots of World War II, and specifically the pursuit of the Congressional Gold Medal. And so after 15, it's been 15 years since they were awarded the Congressional Gold Medal. I'm going back and writing about the small team that worked together to make that happen, especially just to keep the WASP memory alive, especially in light of what we're seeing today. Right. Which is the censorship and the Removal of, you know, of service member and veteran stories.
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Amy McGrath
And you were an integral part of making that happen. Right. Because you were a White House fellow at the time, and you. You sort of made that happen.
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Nicole Malachowski
Well, I. There was indeed a small team of us that made that happen. I was proud to be a part of that team. I can tell you that by being a White House fellow at the time, I had access to doors that I could finally walk through. You know, there were people who were working on this or had ideas like this for quite some time, but people just didn't have the access. So when I found myself in a position to utilize that for good, then I teamed up with these other folks who hopefully everyone will read about in the book, and we were able to get that Congressional Gold Medal through.
- [07:37]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, that's so important. And we also. I mean, you're telling your story of meeting your husband. You know, I met my husband in a similar way. He was my. I was a backseater, and I went from backseat in the F18 Delta to the F18 Charlie and Delta, you know, as a front seater. And as I went through training to become a pilot, he was one of my instructors now. He was a helicopter pilot. But he, you know, in. In the naval aviation pipeline, you know, you can go back. You have to go back and do training from the very beginning again. And so I was the highest paid flight student, you know, as an O3, as a captain. And it was a great. It was a great tour. And that's where I met my husband. And, you know, so very similar story there.
- [08:23]
Nicole Malachowski
Outstanding. Outstanding. Yeah. You know, you got to go home and talk about the days flying with someone who understands it.
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Denver Riggleman
I know.
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Amy McGrath
Even today.
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Nicole Malachowski
Yes, ma' am.
- [08:32]
Denver Riggleman
I just wanted to tell you. I just wanted to tell you. And, you know, I won't call you Fifi because you know, how, you know. But you have Crusty and Chunk here. So my call signs Chunk. We have Crusty. You know, she's talking to you right now. So we have fifi, Crusty and Chunk coming to you right now. And. But I. I want to. I want to ask you really quick. Seymour Johnson, you were there in 2011. At that point, was it still an Air Expeditionary Wing, or were you there as a. You were a commander there at the 333rd, correct?
- [08:58]
Nicole Malachowski
Yeah. So in 2011, I commanded the 333rd Fighter Squadron, which was actually the FT, or the Flying Training Unit. So I had a cadre of, like, the most elite instructor pilots in the world. And we were putting through several classes At a time of F15E students, we did have two operational squadrons on base there that were deploying as part of the Air Expeditionary Wing. And sometimes, interestingly, instructor pilots from the ftu, from my squadron would actually augment the squadrons that were deploying operationally. So that was interesting to see.
- [09:31]
Denver Riggleman
Yeah, that's. And the reason that, I mean, I just think it's so great Amy was talking about. And you know, I'm always in awe of Amy too. You know, I was just an intelligence officer, but we can talk about that incredible thing later there.
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Nicole Malachowski
Qualifier. Just. You are.
- [09:43]
Denver Riggleman
Yeah, no, I had a hell of a fun time. I mean, Seymour Johnson was our sister wing. You know, Mountain Home was here, expeditionary wing. When 911 happened. And we went right when that happened, you know, back in the day. That's why I was saying, you know, looking at 2011, I'm like, man, gosh, this is great. But no, going from 15, 8, F16. I had a mentor of mine, I don't know, Lieutenant General Gene Sanarelli.
- [10:03]
Nicole Malachowski
Okay.
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Denver Riggleman
And he flew Vietnam era aircraft. And I remember him saying, going to the F16 from sort of the more unwieldy, you know, two seater aircraft, he's like, it was like just such an incredible evolution for him to jump in the F6 16. I don't remember if he flew the F4s, but, you know, or something like that. Or it might have been the. I'm trying to remember, but. But he flew some other aircraft. He flew about five or six different aircraft. But when Amy asked that question, it got to me is that I know that the F15E strike eagle that's at my intelligence training was in, just to let you know, awesome was FD F15C's. Then I got to take apart F16Cjs, but I got to do the harm targeting shooters. And I went to the B1s. So I had this, you know, sort of incredible training around that. But I, I still, I know you said F15ES was your first love. And I. And I. And I get it, right? I do, I love it.
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Nicole Malachowski
Remember, that's the aircraft I could employ fully as a complete weapon system.
- [10:56]
Denver Riggleman
As a complete weapon system. And I get it. But you know, talking to Amy, you know, going from, you know, back seater to front seater and everything that she did, it had to be something. The difference in the F15E flight dynamics to F16 and what you could do with the Thunderbirds, I gotta think that was probably pretty cool though.
- [11:11]
Nicole Malachowski
Oh, it was a heck of a lot of fun. Look, the F16 is highly maneuverable, super agile, much more so than the F15E Strike Eagle, right? It's perfectly suited for the things that you do, of course, in an air show. And I would be lying if I said it wasn't an absolute hoot to fly the F16. I mean, it's like a little sports car. And, you know, when you're five foot four like me, it fits you like a glove, right? I mean, you know, in an F15E, you can play tennis in the cockpit, but in an F16, it fit me like a glove. I really felt like I was, you know, part of the aircraft.
- [11:39]
Denver Riggleman
Well, I just want to let you know. I want to let you know I actually got a stick time in an F16D model in the back seat. So I just want to, you know, I'm pretty good at doing barrel rolls. You know, I just want to let you know. I just, you know.
- [11:48]
Nicole Malachowski
How many GS did you get up to?
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Denver Riggleman
I think it was. I think it's a max of 6G's because we were carrying that container on the bottom of the D model. Do you know what I'm saying?
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Amy McGrath
How many times did you puke, brother?
- [11:58]
Denver Riggleman
Never. Well, that's a lie. I, you know, they. They made me puke at a B1 after four hours of low level, but I had had eight pieces of French toast beforehand. Hence where I got, you know, my call sign is Chunk, by the way. So I just want to let you guys know.
- [12:11]
Nicole Malachowski
And now, so. But hey, look, I flew the F15E, the F16, like, not bad for a gal that, you know, went to high school in Las Vegas, Nevada.
- [12:19]
Amy McGrath
I.
- [12:19]
Nicole Malachowski
And, you know, like, what a great country I was born into, right? As a woman, you know, to be born into a country where I was afforded these kinds of opportunities, where we have this kind of technology and, you know, where I was able to get over a thousand hours in two of the world's greatest fighters. So I remain very grateful.
- [12:35]
Amy McGrath
And you and I were lucky, right, because the women before us did not have those opportunities. And that gets me to one of the things I really want to talk to you about, which is the current Department of Defense sort of whitewashing history and saying, hey, we're all the same now. Let's not talk about the Tuskegee Airmen. Let's not talk about, you know, the six Triple eight or the Navajo Code Talkers or Nicole Malachowski. Let's not talk about her, because that's divisive.
- [13:12]
Nicole Malachowski
I mean, it's absolutely, I think, Appalling I think it's completely shameful. The idea that our federal government is willing to go back and selectively delete and selectively edit out, you know, specific service member and veteran stories is mind blowing to me. And keep in mind, they weren't, they're not removing, deleting, or editing out, you know, things that were misinformation or were factually incorrect. They're literally taking away stories of facts based honorable, you know, service. And I literally still haven't been able to get my arms around it. It's, it's ridiculous.
- [13:44]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, I always think of it as like you're stifling inspiration because, you know, when, when I was a young naval aviator or aspiring naval aviator or aspiring Marine Corps officer, you know, I looked at Alan Shepard and John Glenn as my heroes, but I also looked at Matisse Wright and I also looked at Rosemary Mariner and all of these women. And it was because the military championed them. They talked about them, you know, and that's how I knew their names. And that was so important. And I feel like these guys who, they're saying, hey, we're gonna now be a, a merit based military. It's almost like it's insulting. It's insulting to you. I mean, anybody that looks at your bio, I mean, it's got to say.
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Nicole Malachowski
Well, I always tell people, you can't fake doing that. You can either do it or you can't.
- [14:40]
Amy McGrath
So. Exactly. Yeah, you can either land the jet or you can't.
- [14:43]
Nicole Malachowski
Right.
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Amy McGrath
You either fly it or you don't.
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Nicole Malachowski
Indeed.
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Amy McGrath
But we're not, we're not going to somehow turn ourselves into being, you know, quote, colorblind merit based culture that promotes individual initiative, excellence and hard work, as if we haven't been promoting excellence and hard work altogether. And oh, by the way, I would say that, and this is just my opinion here, you can chime in if you want, but the current leadership of, as the Secretary of Defense himself, to me, is not somebody who got there because of excellence and hard work and merit based in my mind.
- [15:20]
Nicole Malachowski
Well, I mean, when you look at, you know, former Secretary of defenses and their qualifications, there's certainly a major gap there. I always want to honor anybody, you know, who was willing, you know, to serve their country. But the fact of the matter is he never really reached the levels of, if you will, executive or strategic leadership to have, I think, the experience or the wisdom, you know, to make, I think, more informed decisions. If I'm putting it, you know, nicely, you know, there's a couple things I think going on here, right? Three things that I can think of. There's the censorship, which just fundamentally, you know, stifles critical thinking, right? It goes against free fe. Free speech and it erodes democracy. I think there's this idea that you touched on, which is why we need to, I think, shine a light on firsts and when barriers are broken, right? It's, it's so that we remember that there was a time when there weren't women flying fighter aircraft, when there was a time when we had a segregated military, you know, that we honored those first so that we never go back and so that we keep the door open so that there can be another crusty and another fifi and another chunk, right, to come along as second thirds and fourths. But you're hitting on a third point, which is important, which is the, the inspirational aspect of it. Just like you, man, I looked up to the women Air Force service pilots of World War II, right? Knowing their story in middle school meant something to me. I mean, I remember reading about Robin Olds, right, And Chappie James, right? The greatest, one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time. And those stories inspired me. And then I find myself going to the Air Force Academy the very, you know, right at the time that they're lifting the ban on women to be fighter pilots. And Jeannie Levitt, right, America's first woman fighter pilot as a lieutenant is all over the news. And I'm thinking, man, you know, she's doing it and that means I can do it. And that, that idea that representation matters is so facts based. I, I spent the first half of my career crusty and I don't know if you felt this way. I hated nothing more than being called the woman fighter pilot. I couldn't stand being called the first Thunderbird pilot. I wanted to just take that woman qualifier and just throw it away because I just wanted to be known as a great fighter pilot or, you know, a good Thunderbird PIL pilot. And then I went to my very first air show. So I'm mid career now, 30 years old, senior captain. I go to my first air show and I'm on the autograph line for the first time. First of all, I'm exhausted because I work hard on that air show, you know. Second of all, you know, I'm just, I'm dripping sweat. I was sitting there thinking, hey, that went well. Like nothing bad happened. I was, you know, there's just an adrenaline dump and now I've got to go to the autograph line and interact with people. And be energetic and happy. And I remember being on that autograph line and there was all sorts of media there because. First woman Thunderbolt pilot. Right. And I'm looking down at the other male pilots. Great teammates, fantastic, fantastic men, fantastic friends. You know, they've got like 10, 20 people standing in front of them, and all of a sudden it was like slow motion, you guys. I looked up, and in front of me, there was a line easily 100 deep. This was in Fort Smith, Arkansas. And what do you think the demographic of that line looked like?
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Amy McGrath
All girls, Right?
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Denver Riggleman
Women.
- [18:15]
Nicole Malachowski
Young women. Right?
- [18:16]
Amy McGrath
Yeah.
- [18:16]
Nicole Malachowski
You know, from the ages about 10 to 16. And they were looking at me as if I had hung the moon. Right. And it. And it was in that moment that I realized it means something to see someone who looks like you succeed. And it wasn't about me or my name. It's that my presence, you know, my presence allowed them to believe in their own dreams. Right. That whether it was flying aircraft or joining the military or not, that these things were possible. And so for you to say we're very lucky is so true. Right. Talk about being born in the right country at the right time. My successes that are on that, you know, resume or whatever are the result of tlc, timing, luck and circumstances, and a heck of a lot of hard work by other people who invested and mentored me.
- [18:58]
Amy McGrath
Yeah. Huge.
- [18:59]
Denver Riggleman
I have to. I have to say this. You know, I have three daughters and three granddaughters. If you write. And they would be in that line if you were there. And I know that you wanted to take away. If I may speak. You know, I think I can say some things that are, you know, maybe others can't. Right. Here's the thing. Thing first, when you look at Hex, I think his inferior. Inferiority complex, his histrionics about DEI is exactly. I think what you and Amy were pointing out is I don't think he has the requisite executive experience, but he was a guy who came up in Fox News, let's be honest. Right. And when you talk about disinformation and misinformation, and as you know, Nicole, this is something that's dear to me. When you talked about not removing that, but removing you from a website, it's. It's. It's almost like a throat punch to anybody who's facts based or sanity based, but it's also a throat punch to those who really respect those who are trailblazers. And if you look at you and Amy, you're trailblazers. And I know it's you want to throw away that, you know, first female, you know, Thunderbird, right? And things like that. But I think that's exactly why I would be in that line with my daughters and my granddaughters is because you're that and because Amy's that. I want them to know about you. I, I want my granddaughters, you know, Bo, Isla and Freya to know about Amy and Nicole. I don't want him to know about Pete Hegseth. I, I couldn't care less. And I think that's what's so incredible about this conversation for me is, you know, when I look at my daughters and what they've accomplished and now I have my little granddaughters, I want them to be like both of you. I, I, that is that I want them to say, hey, you know, like my, my daughter, right? The youngest, you know, female distiller, right? You know, the young. But she wasn't just the youngest woman distiller in the country. She was the youngest distiller, right? And, you know, so master distiller. So those are the kind of things that you, what you're doing. You're a trailblazer. You know, it's every, every time I'm on a show with Amy, I think the same way. And I'm not just trying to flatter. To flatter. There is a point here, and the point is this is, I think when you're looking at them trying to erase the history of those who are trailblazers, especially with those like you, I think what you're looking at is this inferiority and this sort of, this, I hate to say it, this male dominated way of looking at the military that really has nothing to do with the incredible things that you've accomplished. And I think that's what makes me angry, is that as military brothers and sisters, we should be looking at what we accomplish based on merit, based, because that's what we were taught to do. So this bullshit, right, of just white males with their pictures hanging in a fricking hallway is a little bit odd. It's a little bit weird. It's very weird. And I think that's why I know you and Amy want to take that away. But for me, with my daughters and granddaughters, I'm gonna say, look, look at Amy McGrath, but look at Nicole. Look, you know, look at, look, look at what they've done. And I think that's why I do sort of like the fact that you are trailblazers.
- [21:50]
Nicole Malachowski
You know, I, I appreciate what you're saying, and I hope you are hearing in that story, on that day, at age 30, I evolved, right? That day, I realized it does mean something. And now it's on me. It's my responsibility now, you know, to live up to this and that. I need to be accountable to these young faces, you know, that are looking up to me. And. And over the last 20 years, I've. Being very proud to be the first woman Thunderbird pilot, being very proud to be one of the first women, you know, fighter pilots. And getting back to, you know, Secretary Hexess and the current president, I think what they've done, right, is they're. They're kind of conflating this idea of dei, which apparently my definition of it and theirs must be. Must be quite different.
- [22:29]
Denver Riggleman
Must be, right.
- [22:30]
Nicole Malachowski
The definition of dei, they're conflating it with this idea of quotas, right? And they're. They're saying quotas for everything. Quotas and DEI are the same thing. And they're absolutely not. Look, I think there are reasonable critiques of quota systems. I also know that there are times. Look at corporate America.
- [22:45]
Amy McGrath
I.
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Nicole Malachowski
Look, I work in corporate America now, right? A company, maybe based on its company values or cultures, wants to set a standard or a quota to say, hey, we want 50% of our board to be women. They are absolutely entitled to do that. I can see how people would be like, well, I don't want quotas, you know, in the military for promotions or for certain duty assignments. I think. I think both of you would agree with that. But what they're doing is they're creating, you know, equating DEI with quotas. I always tell people, DEI is not stopping meritocracy. Dei, when done well and when executed as intended, is what enables meritocracy, Right?
- [23:21]
Amy McGrath
It's lifting it up. And Exactly. You're exactly right. And just the focus on the military, it's this idea that we want the best talent. We want the best talent. And when you're. Nicole, when you're out there and you were a Thunderbird as 30 years old, and you had that line of young women, you know, hundreds lined up for you, we want that talent in the military because not all of them are going to be capable, willing, but some of them are, absolutely. And they could be the best next lethal. Because, you know, they love to use those words, lethal. They could be the next lethal fighter pilot out there, and the best coming down the pike. And that's what this nation needs.
- [24:11]
Nicole Malachowski
And we need our military to reflect the face of the country that it represents. There's foundational Good. Right in that. And Secretary Hexseth, I think, needs to be concerned with the ramifications of this kind of censorship. Right. And the book bannings that we have at the war colleges and the academies. Look, it's a recruitment and retention issue. Like you, Krusty, I'm sure that you are mentoring lots of people who want to learn to fly or young gals, young boys who want to join the military. You know, when this all started going down in. In March, which ironically.
- [24:39]
Amy McGrath
Right.
- [24:39]
Nicole Malachowski
Was Women's History Month, you know, I got. I had been mentoring a young. A young black man from. In high school from Chicago who was wanting to join the military and become a fighter pilot. You know, who does he look up to? The Tuskegee Airman Chappie James. All those things. Right. And all of a sudden he is sending me emails going, is this really happening? Like, I can't believe that the Air Force I wanted. I want to join is censoring, you know, the Tuskegee Airmen. I'm not sure I want to join an Air Force that does that. That's a. That's a recruitment issue. Also, like you, I am consistently mentoring women who are still currently in the military. I have had several, and I'm talking close to 10 at least. And I'm not exaggerating. Over the last three months, write to me and say, I'm not sure I want to reenlist anymore. Officers who are like, you know what? I'm not sure I'm going to put my name in for the command board because, you know, it's clear that we're not wanted here, or people are going to turn around and say it's DEI and woke. And I don't want to live with that specter over my shoulder. So for Secretary Hegseth, if he can't get behind the fundamental, I think, wrongness of the censorship, can we at least get behind the pragmatic impact it's having on recruitment and retention?
- [25:45]
Amy McGrath
Yeah. And that's a long term thing.
- [25:47]
Nicole Malachowski
Absolutely.
- [25:48]
Denver Riggleman
I think the country does just get more diverse. And I'll have to say this. I think. And I'd humbly submit. I'll humbly submit this. It does seem like if we take away reasonable arguments, I think anti DEI is anti talent. But I do think it's also there's. Listen, you know, Nicole, you probably know I was in the Republican Party, right. I don't want to get too political here. It's really not political, but it seems like there is a real underlying racism, misogyny, anti intellectual pursuit here when you're talking about book banning, but you're also talking about getting rid of those trailblazers off of websites, which is a little ludicrous. I mean, do you think that maybe some of the commanders and Amy, if I had discussion, Amy's like, oh, but do you think some of the commanders might have overreacted with the DEI when you're talking about not even those putting in for these spots, but do you think they overreacted by scrubbing, you know, so many things based on what their arbitrary definition of DEI was?
- [26:43]
Nicole Malachowski
No, I don't. And here's, here's why. Because I've been, without giving away names, because I fear, fear of retribution for them. I've been talking to people on the inside at the highest levels of public affairs. If you look at the memo that was signed and written directing this, I think it was, was dated 26 February 2025, titled Digital Content Refresh. You're welcome to go look at that. It's very clear on what it was directed. Following that memo, internal emails went out with a list, a complete list of the terms. And those terms included things like woman. Right. Or diversity. And so those things were pulled. Now, here's the question, right? So critics will say to me, well, this wasn't what President Trump and Secretary Hegseth intended. Right. It was what malicious intent or malicious compliance, I think is what people have said. Let me say, let me, let me give that to some people. Let's say there was malicious compliance. We also have something in the military called commander's intent. Right. Chris, you guys both from.
- [27:41]
Amy McGrath
All right, when.
- [27:42]
Denver Riggleman
Oh, yeah, that's where I'm going.
- [27:44]
Nicole Malachowski
Friction of war. It doesn't meet the rules of engagement or the special instructions. We fall back on what is the commander's intent before I take action. And if commander's intent is misinterpreted or misimplied, whose responsibility is it to fix it? The commander. And so the Trump administration absolutely has even an out here right now to go and say, I am the commander in chief. This was not my commander's intent. Let's fix this.
- [28:10]
Amy McGrath
But they haven't.
- [28:11]
Nicole Malachowski
They have not.
- [28:12]
Denver Riggleman
Yeah, that's.
- [28:12]
Amy McGrath
And in fact, I would say they doubled down on it because the memo from the Department of Defense stated early May, I think was May 8, was basically saying, go, go take the books off the shelves.
- [28:24]
Nicole Malachowski
Right. The books. I mean, and to get back to Denver really quickly, like, you know, Chunk, I, when they, when I found out they had removed articles on me, I Kind of was just scoffing because these were articles like I've been retired seven years. These articles were 10, 20 years old. Oh, yeah, we're going back and deleting. It's nothing more than a modern day electronic book burning. It's ridiculous.
- [28:51]
Amy McGrath
It's ridiculous. Well, I want to get to a part of your career, though, Nicole. That was, I think, at the end where you were selected to be in the work within the Biden administration on veterans and military families. Now, you had already had the experience of being a White House fellow, which is really cool. So you'd already sort of been in that arena before, and then you were selected to come back and work on this initiative. And I want, I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and maybe a comparison to what you see happening to veterans right now with the current administration.
- [29:32]
Nicole Malachowski
Yes. So to your point, I served as a White House fellow under George Bush and then President Obama when he came in. So six months under each administration, which was fascinating in and of itself to watch a presidential transition from literally the inside, came back in 2015 under the end of the Obama administration. So I was working as the director of the White House's Joining Forces Initiative, directly advising then first Lady Michelle Obama and Dr. Jill Biden on all issues, everything related to service members, veterans and military families, you know, education, spouse employment, veterans, homelessness, literally the entire gamut. You know, I don't see joining forces in the current administration. It would have been nice to have them, you know, continue with that initiative. I mean, I don't know that many people can throw spears at what the Joining Forces mission and purpose, you know, was. But during that time when I was in the White House, I mean, service members, veterans, the military were on the docket to talk about every single day. There wasn't a day that went by that the first lady, then Michelle Obama, wasn't asking and inquiring what needs to be done. Where are the challenges? Where can we, you know, take away bottlenecks? You know, where can we put the power and the prestige of the White House behind to, you know, influence good behavior in the veteran hiring space? I mean, it happened every single day. The only thing I hear coming out of the White House nowadays is we're removing people's, you know, stories. I mean, it was to the point that there was a friend of mine outside of Phoenix, Arizona, they were having their annual veterans kind of event honoring women veterans. And they asked the local base, as they had done for decades, and keep in mind, local electric officials were there this was the mayor. This was the full thing. They'd been doing this for decades. They wrote to the local base and said, hey, can you please send out, as you always do, your national anthem singer? We would love to have a military person in uniform sing the national anthem as we do through public affairs. They were turned down and told, we're really sorry. We know we've done this for decades. We can no longer do it because your event says women veterans, and we're not allowed to do that. Do the new dei. I mean, that happened. We should.
- [31:43]
Denver Riggleman
You gotta be kidding.
- [31:45]
Amy McGrath
We should be ashamed.
- [31:46]
Nicole Malachowski
Shameful.
- [31:46]
Denver Riggleman
It's just shit. Oh, my God.
- [31:48]
Amy McGrath
And meanwhile, we're, you know, looking at cutting 80,000 people from the VA to help veterans and the veteran workforce. We're looking at, you know, 30% of the federal workforce are veterans, and we're. We're cutting them left and right.
- [32:04]
Nicole Malachowski
I mean, and that impacts recruitment and retention. If people look at the VA and go, we're not going to get what was promised to us. When we rose, you know, raised our hand to the Constitution, you know, that was a compact between us and the American people when we decided to put on our nation uniform. And now we're not getting, you know, that whatever the. The end part of the contract back. They're not honoring. They're part of it. That's a recruitment and retention issue also.
- [32:31]
Amy McGrath
Yeah. So, Nicole, you're working on your book. You're in Colorado Springs or around there. What else? You're in the corporate world now.
- [32:42]
Nicole Malachowski
Yeah. So I guess part of my story, that's a big part of my story is my career came to an end very unexpectedly, very abruptly and very much overnight When I was serving in the White House that second time in the joining forces role, I fell severely ill, like, overnight. I won't get into all the details here. We could probably do a whole nother podcast on that. But long story short, I ended up with a major brain infection. It left me bedridden for nine months. Couldn't walk, talk, read, or write. And then I had to do another year and a half in rehab in order to get back to the quality of life and function that you see today. So I lost two years of my life during that time. I went through a medical evaluation board, and I was. Was medically retired from the career I loved so much. It still hurts. But at the end of the day, this might surprise the listeners. I was medically retired. In fact, because I was coming on here, I pulled this up to look at it, because I hadn't seen it in a while, so forgive me. Gotta put on my. This is how you know you're a fullbird colonel, right?
- [33:39]
Denver Riggleman
Is that how you know that I know you're a colonel.
- [33:42]
Amy McGrath
You got the readers.
- [33:43]
Nicole Malachowski
That's right. That's how 06s go to meetings, right?
- [33:46]
Denver Riggleman
There's bifocal readers.
- [33:47]
Nicole Malachowski
I know I need to get those. My air Force formed three for 356 dated 21 July 2017, found 100% quote, unfit for duty due to chronic systemic tick borne illness. So a tick bite is what ended my career. You know, I went from this really kind of elite, high performing, physically fit, mentally fit, you know, spiritually fit person to just completely broken overnight. And at the end of the day, my career, you know, was gone. And I, I sat there thinking, you know, who am I if I'm not wearing my nation's uniform, you know, what is my contribution to society if I'm not a fighter pilot? And how am I going to provide for my family, you know. And it was, it was in those deep and dark moments of 2017 that I really had to think about how am I going to reinvent myself? And so long answer to your short question, Krusty, people always say, I'm so sorry you can't fly anymore because I have, I still have a lot of brain damage and a lot of stuff that impacts my balance and all of that. I always tell them it's not the flying that I miss, it's being a part of high performing teams. It's about leadership and it's about teamwork. And so I reinvented myself kind of as a leadership consultant and a professional speaker. So I work with corporate America to try to hone elite team performance for them, to build teamwork, to build trust and I think to embrace vulnerability. And so I very selfishly fill that hole in my heart by being a part of these corporate teams kind of as I make my way around their different events.
- [35:12]
Denver Riggleman
So Nicole, I can, I can call you when I want my AI company to be inspired because I would love that if you would come and talk to them. For sure, you know, I would love to have you. And also as far as tick borne illnesses, I mean I have a pretty bad one myself right now. It's nothing like that. Sounds like. Did you have encephalitis from the tick bite?
- [35:29]
Nicole Malachowski
So I didn't get full on encephalitis. What happened was, to be very specific, the infection got into my brain stem, specifically an area at the top of the brain Stem called the pons. The pons is what controls your autonomic nervous system. It's like the worst place in your brain to like get an infection. So I did not advance to encephalitis, but I had infectious lesions on my brainstem.
- [35:52]
Denver Riggleman
I'm so sorry. No, I. My tick bite. I have alpha gal. I'm allergic to all mammal meats right now. So it's. Yes, but my wife and I got it because we live out in the woods. And if you were around D.C. my guess is you probably got it hiking somewhere. You were down in Rock Creek park or something. It got.
- [36:06]
Nicole Malachowski
But I actually got it. When I was the commander of the 333rd in North Carolina, we were doing our annual, we were doing our annual sear training, right? So we were out there crawling around in the woods. We didn't talk about tick bite prevention, we didn't talk about tick removal. We never were educated at that time on what symptoms to look for. And when I presented several months later with multi systemic problems, my flight surgeon, my military doctor looked me in the eye and he said, we don't have Lyme disease in North Carolina. And that was the day that I became chronically ill forever. May is indeed Lyme disease in tick borne illness awareness month. So I'm glad we are bringing this up. The most important thing, friends, is to prevent the bite. Permethrin, no doubt, permethrin and Picardin are your friends. And if people go to any of my social media, which is Ealmalakowski, I have a link, tree link. If you go to that link, tree link and you scroll down, it's got everything you need to know about tick bite prevention done. We're going to end up like me.
- [37:06]
Amy McGrath
So important, so important. I remember going through a Marine Corps training. We did care a lot about the ticks because we were out there in the field a long time. But I don't know that we were as proactive as we should have been.
- [37:23]
Nicole Malachowski
And I think education wise, I've been very involved in the patient advocacy space and very much a pain in the butt to the Department of Defense and Veterans affairs on tick borne illnesses since then. I think fundamentally, Krusty, there was a difference in training because army and Marines on the ground rooting around Air Force back then, you know, we weren't really.
- [37:40]
Amy McGrath
You're like, how quickly can I get this training done and get back to my nice.
- [37:46]
Denver Riggleman
You know what, hold on a second. Listen. Golf courses have a lot of ticks. Come on now. Because when I'm out there and you're on the golf course and say I'm in a bunker. I'm not worried about about it, but if I go into the rough, we could get tick borne illnesses, Amy. So I think you need to be a little bit easier on the Air Force here. When you're talking that way, it's really hurtful.
- [38:05]
Amy McGrath
Did you guys actually have to sleep outside like in a tent or was that.
- [38:09]
Nicole Malachowski
No. Oh gosh, no. We only spent like a half.
- [38:11]
Denver Riggleman
Oh, well, I did actually. I, I, I lived in ten city.
- [38:15]
Nicole Malachowski
The issue though, Marine.
- [38:17]
Denver Riggleman
Well, the thing is, is that they had the air conditioning set down too low because it got really cold in the tents because we had the big air conditioners in the tents and I had to go complain that, listen, we want our air conditioning between 66 and 70, not 62 when we're in tents in the desert. So I was really not happy about too much freon in the air conditioning units for the tents. Really.
- [38:36]
Nicole Malachowski
In all seriousness, I do take the Department of Defense and VA to task on this. I serve as an official ambassador and mentor still to this day with the official Air Force Wounded Warrior Program. In fact, I'm doing an Air Force Wounded Warrior Program event this upcoming weekend. And there isn't a month that goes by that I am not helping an airman who is being medically retired or evaluated for tick borne illness.
- [38:55]
Denver Riggleman
Unbelievable.
- [38:56]
Nicole Malachowski
What cohort of the American public is exposed to more global vectors than our service members? You know, by nature, by default, the veterans they become and the military family station around the world. There is absolutely no excuse for the Department of Veterans affairs and the Department of Defense to not be leaders in this space as far as education, awareness, diagnostics and treatment. And in fact, when I was I just read you my form. 100% unfit for duty due to chronic systemic tick borne illness. It took me four years of fighting. Yeah, it's gonna get me emotional. Four years for the VA to recognize the very thing that I was found 100% unfit for duty for. To the point that they didn't have a code for what I had. So I was medically retired with a code that the VA wasn't prepared to receive. Unacceptable. Unacceptable. I can say I took that to task. And with the Wounded Warrior Program out of Florida, we were able to get Congress to add in those codes. And so now at least if it's.
- [40:04]
Amy McGrath
So important, I mean, that's so I work with iava, which is Iraq, Afghanistan, Veterans of America. I'm on their board. They were part of the Push to get the PACT act passed. That's. That's the act that helps veterans who have toxic fume exposure. I mean, all of these things, it seems in the weeds, but this stuff is so important to veterans. It's so important to people who signed the dotted line to Uncle Sam that said, you can send me anywhere for four years or more. And now they're having medical problems because of that. We need to take care of. Of the people who serve our country.
- [40:46]
Nicole Malachowski
America's promise, it's the fundamental promise. When we. I was 17 years old when I took that first oath to the Constitution. And if we don't follow through on America's promise, we have no moral standing or ethical standing, you know, to back us up as Americans. And at the end of the day, it is fundamentally wrong. And it impacts recruitment and retention.
- [41:05]
Amy McGrath
It does. And there's always this push in my mind to, From. You know, I hate to say it, and it's not to be political, but it seems to be from the right to always try to cut costs. Let's cut the va. Let's cut the, you know, the. The workforce, the. The benefits. And I'm just. I'm sick of it.
- [41:25]
Nicole Malachowski
I. I agree with you. It is frustrating. It's exhausting, it's tiring, and it's. It's completely unnecessary.
- [41:34]
Denver Riggleman
Well, not only were you a trailblazer in your career, Nicole, but you're a trailblazer making sure people are taken care of. And it seems like that's. That's what you do in your life. It's just. It's an amazing honor just to meet you and talk to you and to have these type of discussions. I gotta tell you, it's. You know, every day I'm happy to be with Amy. Right. It's incredible that we have this chance to do this show together and the fact that you would agree to come on here, share your stories. But, no, I think, you know, once I'm back in Congress. Amy's laughing. Or once I'm governor. Right. I'm gonna make sure you come back. Right. And help me with legislation to help others, because I tell you, you're an insult.
- [42:11]
Nicole Malachowski
Well. Or.
- [42:11]
Amy McGrath
Nicole, you know, color needs some good leaders.
- [42:15]
Denver Riggleman
Yeah.
- [42:15]
Amy McGrath
You know, and I'm thinking specifically, like, Colorado 5th District, maybe some others. You need to.
- [42:23]
Denver Riggleman
What do you think, Nicole?
- [42:26]
Amy McGrath
Country, our country needs better leaders. You're one of them. Well, I mean, you are absolutely. You are the real deal. Thank you. And so whatever. Whatever you decide to do in. In the future, thank you. I know there's a lot of people are going to be behind you.
- [42:40]
Nicole Malachowski
I, I, I appreciate your kind compliment. I will tell you that, you know, with my chronic illness, which you guys can't see today, and your viewers and listeners, you know, aren't recognizing it, it makes it hard at this point. But I have belief that I'm going to continue to heal and get better. And so maybe running for office is an opportunity in the future.
- [42:59]
Amy McGrath
Awesome.
- [42:59]
Denver Riggleman
What an honor. Thank you.
- [43:00]
Nicole Malachowski
Nicole, you thanks for your time.
- [43:08]
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