Truth in the Barrel – “Devil’s Cut | Military Relations w General Steven Lepper”
Hosts: Amy McGrath & Denver Riggleman
Guest: Major General Steven Lepper (Ret., USAF)
Date: October 14, 2025
Episode Overview
In this timely and urgent episode, Amy McGrath sits down with retired Major General Steven Lepper to discuss the increasing politicization of the US military, the erosion of civilian control, and the dangers of using armed forces for political purposes at home and abroad. Drawing on his decades of experience as a senior legal advisor within the Air Force and as counsel to multiple US Presidents, General Lepper sheds light on recent military strikes in the Caribbean, the troubling trend of deploying troops on American streets, and the fundamental importance of maintaining the honor and apolitical integrity of the armed services. The conversation is candid, sobering, and focused on the practical and ethical crossroads facing the US military and democracy itself.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Legality and Transparency of Caribbean Strikes
[01:53 – 07:27]
- Concerns about Justification and Evidence
- General Lepper criticizes US military strikes against vessels in the Caribbean, expressing fears about provoking international conflict, especially with Venezuela, and failing to properly identify ship nationalities.
- Quote:
“We are not accurately or effectively identifying the nationality of the vessels. Or if we can't identify the nationality, are we sure that they are actually doing what the administration is saying they're doing?”
— Gen. Lepper [02:17] - Both guests decry the lack of transparent evidence presented to justify these attacks, especially as their targets may have been civilian vessels.
- Legal Implications: If migrants or civilians were targeted, Lepper warns, “what we've done is commit murder. That's the plain and simple legal fact here.” — Gen. Lepper [04:49]
2. Politicization and Militarization of Domestic Policy
[07:27 – 12:50]
-
Military’s Growing Role in Domestic Affairs
- McGrath and Lepper discuss the dangerous normalization of military presence in US cities (e.g., National Guard in Chicago, Portland, and Washington, D.C.)
- Quote:
“Once that happens, then we're going to start seeing military troops being used in other ways, not just guarding ICE buildings… Now we may start seeing them used at polling places to provide security for elections.”
— Gen. Lepper [09:47] - They warn that such deployments pave the way for further and possibly illegal uses of the military, especially against so-called domestic terror groups or at polling stations.
-
Potential Legislative Remedies
- Lepper notes possible amendments to statutes like the Posse Comitatus Act to explicitly prohibit military deployment at polling places and against domestic groups.
- Quote:
“There are many things that Congress can do if it’s strong enough to do them.”
— Gen. Lepper [12:50]
3. Sidestepping Legal Guardrails and Erosion of Norms
[13:24 – 17:06]
- Loopholes and Gray Zones
- Both discuss how the administration is sidestepping traditional guardrails (e.g., using “national defense areas” to justify the military’s law enforcement role at the border).
- They highlight that key laws—like the Insurrection Act—were written assuming a President who would act in good faith based on facts. That presumption, they argue, is fading.
- Quote:
“These laws that give the President discretion assume that they are going to be used in good faith. And it's that good faith that is absent here.”
— Gen. Lepper [16:41]
4. The Supreme Court and Presidential Immunity
[17:06 – 21:47]
- The Trump v. United States Decision
- The hosts discuss the Supreme Court ruling granting the President “absolute immunity” for acts within core constitutional duties, including as Commander-in-Chief.
- Impact on Military Obedience and Accountability
- Lepper voices deep concern about how this decision places military personnel in jeopardy while the President is shielded from prosecution, especially if they receive illegal orders.
- Quote:
“The President can't be prosecuted, but the military members who pull the trigger potentially could be. … There’s a huge question there… Now the military has this incredible burden placed on it to decide how to navigate this.”
— Gen. Lepper [18:11–20:09]
5. Firing of Top Legal Advisors and Threats to Military Ethics
[21:47 – 24:21]
- Chilling Effect of Firing JAGs (Judge Advocate Generals)
- Lepper recounts the firing of senior JAGs and general officers early in the administration, removing crucial legal and ethical guardrails.
- Quote:
“The secretary in messaging, why he fired the jags, talked about not making the law or lawyers roadblocks ... The law actually makes the military more lethal ... because it focuses military operations.”
— Gen. Lepper [22:55] - He describes efforts by retired JAGs to send a white paper and legislative proposals to Congress, hoping to restore legal checks on military action.
6. Service and Loyalty: Integrity vs. Obedience
[24:21 – 29:03]
-
Danger of Demanding Personal Loyalty
- McGrath and Lepper worry over speeches (e.g., at Quantico) promoting personal loyalty to the President over the Constitution and the principle of military honor.
- Quote:
“Militaries filled with yes men do not win wars.”
— Gen. Lepper [24:21] - Lepper stresses the importance of legal counsel and integrity, saying at times leaders may have to “lay their stars on the table” (i.e., resign in protest) and, crucially, do so publicly to draw attention to abuses.
-
Absence of Honor in Senior Leadership
- Lepper observes that “honor” was mentioned just once in Quantico’s key speech—only to suggest those in disagreement resign.
- Quote:
“If we have a secretary who's not even willing to talk about [honor] as a standard for the military ... then we have a real problem.”
— Gen. Lepper [28:10]
7. Economic Pain of the Government Shutdown on Military Families
[29:03 – 32:07]
- Immediate and Lasting Harm
- General Lepper details the hardship faced by military families missing paychecks during the ongoing government shutdown (e.g., inability to pay for childcare, spousal underemployment).
- Quote:
“By virtue of the fact that these men and women who serve in uniform move constantly and sacrifice always, you've got families who are doing far worse financially than many, many American families. And to have this happen to them is just a backbreaker in some cases.”
— Gen. Lepper [30:41]
Memorable Quotes
-
On the Risk of Unjustified Military Action:
“If these were citizens, if these were civilians, what we've done is commit murder. That's the plain and simple legal fact.”
— Gen. Lepper [04:49] -
On Normalizing Troop Presence:
“Seeing them is going to make having them on our streets normal in the eyes of many Americans. … once that happens … they may be used at polling places to provide security for elections.”
— Gen. Lepper [09:27–10:09] -
On Presidential Immunity and Unlawful Orders:
“If the President can do no wrong … and whatever order that the President gives is always legal because the Supreme Court said whatever the President does is always legal, now where does that put our military?”
— Amy McGrath [17:06] -
On the Value of Honor:
“We need to bring honor back to the conversation and it needs to be central in the conversations we have about how the military is being used going forward.”
— Gen. Lepper [33:36]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:53 — General Lepper on the risks of strikes in the Caribbean and the need for jurisdictional and evidentiary clarity
- 04:49 — Dangers if civilians were targeted: “What we've done is commit murder.”
- 09:08 — Concerns about normalization of troops on US streets
- 12:12 — Legislative fixes to restrain military politicization
- 15:06 — How the administration sidesteps legal guardrails using “national defense areas”
- 18:11 — Supreme Court immunity ruling and its impact on military legality
- 21:47 — The firing of Judge Advocate Generals and the erosion of internal legal oversight
- 24:21 — Loyalty, integrity, and the necessity of speaking out against illegal orders
- 28:10 — On the lack of discussion of “honor” in leadership speeches
- 30:01 — Harm of government shutdown on military families
- 32:07 — General Lepper’s closing remarks on honor and global perceptions of the US military
Final Thoughts & Parting Message
General Lepper closes with a call to restore honor as the central ideal of military service, warning that its erosion at the hands of political leaders undermines not only domestic respect but international standing:
“Military service is an honorable profession. It always has been. And what I'm concerned about now is that its leaders are asking it to do some things that are not based on actual fact and … are not right, not legal, and inconsistent with the respect that they deserve … We need to bring honor back to the conversation … about how the military is being used going forward.”
— Gen. Lepper [32:07]
Amy McGrath underscores the unique strength of the US military as stemming not just from its capability, but from its values—values now under threat from politicization and disregard for the rule of law.
For listeners who missed the episode: This expansive and candid conversation lays bare the urgent risks facing civilian control, military honor, and democracy itself—from legal loopholes and dangerous precedents, to the very real human consequences for those serving. General Lepper’s voice is essential listening in these uncertain times.