Devil's Cut | Mother's Day w. Dr. Marianne McGrath

Summary

Truth in the Barrel: Devil's Cut | Mother's Day with Dr. Marianne McGrath

Episode Release Date: May 13, 2025

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Introduction

In the "Devil's Cut" edition of Truth in the Barrel, hosts Amy McGrath and Denver Riggleman delve into the critical state of America's public health institutions. As military veterans, political enthusiasts, and whiskey aficionados from opposite political spectrums, Amy and Denver bring a unique perspective to pressing national issues. This episode features a heartfelt conversation with Dr. Marianne McGrath, Amy’s mother, whose inspiring life story underscores the importance of scientific research and robust public health policies.

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Current State of Public Health in America

Timestamp [00:31] - Amy McGrath: Amy opens the discussion by questioning the intentional dismantling of America's public health institutions. She highlights alarming developments such as the appointment of an anti-vaxxer as the head of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), significant budget cuts to health research, and the undermining of public health initiatives.

Timestamp [04:59] - Amy McGrath: Amy provides a critical overview of the current administration's actions, emphasizing the appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as HHS Secretary. She describes him as "a very scary appointee" due to his lack of medical background, political experience, and controversial views on vaccines.

Key Points:

• Unqualified Leadership: The appointment of individuals with dubious credentials and harmful ideologies to key public health positions.
• Budget Cuts: A staggering $33 billion cut from the HHS budget, affecting critical areas like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the National Institutes of Health (NIH).
• Erosion of Public Trust: Mixed messages and skepticism toward established vaccines leading to outbreaks of preventable diseases like measles.

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The Measles Outbreak and Vaccine Hesitancy

Timestamp [09:13] - Amy McGrath: Amy shifts focus to the rising measles cases in 2025, noting an increase from 280 cases in 2024 to 935 cases this year, including two deaths. She underscores the availability of a measles vaccine since 1963 and criticizes the current HHS Secretary for delaying and sending mixed messages about its effectiveness.

Timestamp [09:57] - Amy McGrath: She elaborates on how Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s inconsistent communication about the measles vaccine has undermined public confidence, particularly in areas with already low vaccination rates.

Notable Quote:

"When your HHS secretary isn't fully behind the vaccine, a lot of people don't want to get it." — Amy McGrath [09:57]

Key Points:

• Vaccine Accessibility: Despite the availability of effective vaccines, misinformation leads to decreased vaccination rates.
• Public Health Crisis: The surge in measles cases is a direct consequence of undermining scientific consensus and public health guidelines.
• Impact of Leadership: The role of HHS leadership in shaping public perception and response to health crises.

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Impact of Government Cuts on Public Health

Timestamp [11:02] - Denver Riggleman: Denver expresses frustration over the administration's disregard for scientific expertise, citing Dr. Mehmet Oz's appointment to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services—a position for which he lacks appropriate qualifications.

Timestamp [24:49] - Dr. Marianne McGrath: Dr. McGrath discusses the broader implications of defunding public health agencies, emphasizing that "massive cuts" hinder groundbreaking research and the development of future medical advancements.

Notable Quote:

"Nothing that happens today as a breakthrough happened today. It happened over the past X number of years." — Dr. Marianne McGrath [28:42]

Key Points:

• Research Funding Cuts: Significant reductions in funding for essential research areas, including cancer research at institutions like Johns Hopkins.
• Brain Drain: Loss of scientific talent to other countries offering better support and funding for research.
• Global Impact: Withdrawal from international organizations like the World Health Organization (WHO) diminishes America's leadership in global health initiatives.

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Guest Introduction: Dr. Marianne McGrath

Timestamp [15:27] - Introduction: Amy introduces Dr. Marianne McGrath, her mother, who has a profound personal connection to public health. Dr. McGrath survived polio in 1951, participated in the development of the polio vaccine under Dr. Jonas Salk, and became one of the first women to graduate from the University of Kentucky's medical school in the 1960s.

Key Points:

• Personal Journey: Dr. McGrath's battle with polio and subsequent role in vaccine development highlight the transformative power of scientific research.
• Pioneering Spirit: As a trailblazer in medicine, Dr. McGrath exemplifies resilience and dedication to public health.

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In-Depth Conversation with Dr. Marianne McGrath

Timestamp [17:32] - Dr. McGrath: Dr. McGrath reflects on the resurgence of infectious diseases and the public’s growing distrust in scientific institutions. She articulates the moral obligation to support scientific advancement and public health measures to protect humanity.

Timestamp [24:59] - Denver Riggleman: Denver questions the current administration's commitment to science, linking policy decisions to the rise in vaccine-preventable diseases.

Notable Quote:

"We are living in an area disbelief and we're living at a time when people resist. People don't know the truth because the truth is rarely spoken." — Dr. Marianne McGrath [24:59]

Key Points:

• Erosion of Trust: The systematic dismantling of credible public health institutions leads to rampant misinformation and fear.
• Importance of Public Funding: Emphasizes that basic, non-profit-driven research is essential for scientific breakthroughs that the private sector may overlook.
• Moral Responsibility: Advocates for the U.S. to maintain its leadership in scientific research to address global and domestic health challenges.

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The Necessity of Public vs. Private Funding in Health Research

Timestamp [33:56] - Amy McGrath: Amy challenges the notion that the private sector can solely handle health research, arguing that many critical areas of study do not offer immediate profits and thus require public funding.

Timestamp [37:49] - Dr. McGrath: Dr. McGrath agrees, explaining that much of the essential research is basic science, which lacks immediate commercial applications but forms the foundation for significant medical advancements.

Notable Quote:

"No for profit company is going to spend 60% of its research funds and time and talent on basic research toward that one thing." — Dr. Marianne McGrath [37:49]

Key Points:

• Basic Research Importance: Fundamental scientific research is crucial for long-term medical breakthroughs and cannot be adequately supported by profit-driven entities.
• Sustainability of Innovation: Continuous public investment ensures a steady pipeline of scientific discoveries and trained researchers.
• Economic and Health Security: Robust public health research infrastructure is vital for preventing and combating future health crises.

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Hope Amidst Challenges

Timestamp [42:03] - Dr. McGrath: Despite the bleak outlook, Dr. McGrath shares a deeply personal source of hope—her family. She emphasizes the role of her children and grandchildren in inspiring her optimism for the future.

Timestamp [44:30] - Dr. McGrath:

"My greatest gift in life has been my three children. I am incredibly blessed with three wonderful children. They make me hopeful." — Dr. Marianne McGrath [42:05]

Key Points:

• Family as Inspiration: Personal relationships and the next generation provide motivation to continue advocating for strong public health measures.
• Optimism Through Legacy: The accomplishments and values of her children and grandchildren represent a beacon of hope against current public health challenges.

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Conclusion

Hosts Amy McGrath and Denver Riggleman, with the invaluable insights of Dr. Marianne McGrath, paint a stark picture of the current state of America's public health infrastructure. The episode serves as a compelling call to action to prioritize scientific research, uphold public health institutions, and combat misinformation. Through personal stories and expert analysis, Truth in the Barrel underscores the critical need for informed leadership and sustained investment in public health to safeguard the nation's well-being.

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Connect with Truth in the Barrel:

• Website: www.TruthintheBarrel.com
• Social Media: Follow Amy and Denver on their various social platforms to stay updated on future episodes and engage with their community.

Transcript

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[Amy McGrath]

Are we in America intentionally breaking our public health institutions? We've confirmed an anti vaxxer to head the Department of Health and Human Services. We're cutting funding for research and public health initiatives. I'm Amy McGrath. I'm here with my co host and friend Denver Riggleman. And this is Truth in the Barrel, Devil's Cut edition where we do a deep dive into one important topic.

[Denver Riggleman]

And I am so excited about this topic today and I hope people understand how committed we are, Amy, because I'm doing this from Dubai, as you can see, with the skyline behind me and my nice brightly colored shirt, but with this incredible content like Devil's Cut and everything that we're doing, people have to sign up. So you have to get on our podcast. You got to download it wherever your favorite podcast station is. You have to subscribe on YouTube, you know, be there or be square. And make sure you follow us on all our socials. I mean, we're everywhere, aren't we, Amy? We're even on Truth Social. We're brave, we don't care. We're here to, you know, push facts and truth the tib, baby. That's where we're at. And that's why I'm doing it from Dubai, because it's that important to talk about what we're going to talk about today.

[Amy McGrath]

Well, thank you, Denver, for being in Dubai and being with us. Since you're there. I'm going to be the one to talk a little bit about whiskey today. And I'm bringing this one to everyone's attention. This is called American Honey. It's part of Wild Turkey Bourbon here in Kentucky. And the reason I love it. And for those people who are sort of whiskey bourbon snobs, they may look at things like American Honey, which is basically infused honey into bourbon. They might look at that and say, well, that's not real whiskey. You know what? This is great for people who may not love whiskey. Maybe you have a partner, a spouse who doesn't love whiskey. I'll tell you what, go buy them a bottle of this because it's one of these things where it's really sweet. They'll probably like it. They can Sip on it and enjoy some whiskey with you. And so I loved it. This was for me, a way to kind of get back into sipping and drinking whiskey again. So American honey.

[Denver Riggleman]

Here's.

[Amy McGrath]

Check it out.

[Denver Riggleman]

We have a history with the American honey whiskey. So my wife actually tried a bunch of the honey whiskeys. And you know, she's a, she's whiskey drinker. As you know, Amy, she likes the hard stuff. But I dared her to make a honey that was actually real with real whiskey. And so she made black back honey rye, which won best whiskey, best blended or I think some, some category like that, the New Orleans Bourbon Festival. Beat that incredible whiskey you have pretty badly. Like, beat it really badly. But I will tell you, it was because of those whiskeys that gave us the inspiration to go with our black back honey rye. And it really is a gateway whiskey. And what Amy's talking about, you know, if you're going to do the hard stuff, like, if you're like a hard drugg, you want to start with marijuana first, right? So our honey rye whiskey is sort of like a gateway whiskey too. But what Amy has is a gateway whiskey. So everybody should go out there. If you want to go to the hard stuff, the good stuff, start with the honey stuff and I promise you, you will graduate to better and better whiskey.

[Amy McGrath]

It tastes really good. It tastes really good. For those people that don't love whiskey, just try it. Have your spouse try it. Trust me.

[Denver Riggleman]

That's right.

[Amy McGrath]

All right.

[Denver Riggleman]

And party.

[Amy McGrath]

Let's get to it. Denver. Donald Trump and his administration has promised to make America healthy again. And they're doing so by appointing unqualified leaders, cutting the health and human services budget, and embracing junk science. So let's just give a quick overview to our viewers as to what's going on. The first piece of this is putting unqualified people in these positions of leadership of public health in our country, starting first and foremost with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. As I know you're laughing. Secretary of Health and Human Services. And I know that lots of people may have read a lot about him, but you know what? You all should do that are listening. Go to Wikipedia and look at the Wikipedia page for Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. It will blow your mind. This is a very scary appointee. He's not a doctor. He's never been in government. He's a politician, a conspiracy theorist and an anti vaxxer. That's just to start.

[Denver Riggleman]

Just to start. And Amy, you know how I am, right? We're both doing the show based on what we've seen. We can go back to conspiracy theories. The fact that I've been looking at this since 2004. Belief systems that overwhelm people, that overwhelm people's sort of rational way of thinking. He is that. You know, we make these jokes, right? Oh, there's people who believe that 5G cell signals cause ear leakage. Oh, they're so stupid. That's Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He believes that guys, as far as anti vax, think about what he says about measles, the fact that we should be doing about vitamin D. I don't even have the words. There's so many layers of crazy. I think everybody should follow Amy's advice and go look at all his belief systems, what he's done, what he's been responsible for. But now we have this person making policy, Amy. We have this person directing cuts. We have this person injecting his thoughts, no pun intended, injecting his thoughts right into the policy of the actual budget process which everybody should go see our show on the budget process so they know how it works through a probes. The President's budget is based on inputs from his cabinet and those he's appointed. And one of those is RFK Jr. It's insane to have superstition actually ruling the day right now in the American.

[Amy McGrath]

And he's not the only one. Denver. He's not, you might say. Well, he's just, he's just an anomaly. I'm sure the leaders of all these other. The, the center for Disease Control, you know, the center for Medicare and Medicaid Services. These people are good, right? No. Dr. Mahmet Oz is now in charge of the center for Medicare and Medicaid. This is a guy who peddled unproven and dangerous cures for profit. The deputy HHS secretary, a guy by the name of Jim o' Neill. He has said that he wants health care to be run as a free market. Okay. And meanwhile, the Trump administration has pushed out, pushed out the nation's top vaccine regulator who was responsible for helping to develop the coronavirus vaccine very, very quickly. Pushing out these people and putting in these really unqualified crazies. That's number one.

[Denver Riggleman]

Well, it's, you know, we had this make America great again. This is mobable. This is a make America bleed with leeches again. And when you look at all the superstitions and all the people that are in charge and who's been let go and you talk about somebody who had a. Took her six years to get a degree from American University in The Caribbean, and had to make up where she got her medical degree. You have Dr. Oz. And by the way, Amy, I mean, we have to. I think we really need to do something about Oprah Winfrey and who she introduces to, actually the public. Dr. Oz, Dr. Phil. Just really disappointing. And then. Right. And then if you go up, you know, I have this theory, Amy, it's the little Stalins, the ones underneath the specific leader are usually worse because they're trying to please their leader. They're trying to please that person for upward mobility, their own cynicism, their own, you know, true belief, their own fantasist ways of life. Amy, what you just said, there is layered idiocy that's directing and coordinating policy for healthcare agencies nationwide. And we are going to be worse than third world countries as far as healthcare. It is hard to believe that right now we don't even know what the reaction is to bird flu, which is starting to jump to human beings right now, or what we're supposed to do. We don't even have a policy about how to really tackle measles based on the fact that people don't believe in inoculations or vaccinations anymore. Think about this. There was a family, Amy, who had five or six kids. People need to look this up. One of their children died from measles, and they were still so okay, right. That they said that's just the way it is and it's because of their religious beliefs. I'm gobsmacked. I don't know how to get in front of this superstition tidal wave that's hitting us, Amy. I just don't.

[Amy McGrath]

Well, two things. One, I want to talk briefly about measles, because you just brought that up, and that's super important. But then I want to get to the cuts that are going on right now to public health services. So the measles outbreak, people should know, you probably read about it in. In the news. We had, right now 935 cases in 2025. We've had two deaths from measles. And to give you some context for this, last year we only had 280 cases total in the United States of America for all of 2024. And we already have a measles vaccine, by the way, Denver, we've had one since 1963. So you can be vaccinated against this disease.

[Denver Riggleman]

Unbelievable.

[Amy McGrath]

It was a very contagious disease. And de. Before it killed thousands of children every year before 1963. And so what's happening? We have RFK Jr. As the HHS secretary, he has delayed communicating to people in America about the vaccine. He hasn't said much about it. His messages have been mixed. He said at one point that the vaccine is effective and then turns around and says, well, it's not really all that tested very well. And that has an impact. It has an impact on the American population. Right. When your HHS secretary isn't fully behind the vaccine, a lot of people don't want to get it. He hasn't enlisted the American Academy of Pediatrics in trying to fight this disease right now. Where is this disease breaking out? And guess what? In places that have the lowest vaccine rate. So that's what's going on with measles at the moment.

[Denver Riggleman]

You know, there's a scientific term, you know, that I like to use for people that can't seem to grasp science, they can't seem to grasp facts. They seem to cling to superstition. And I think if you look in, I think there's a psychology manual. What is it? The DSM 5TR. I believe in the DSM.

[Amy McGrath]

No idea.

[Denver Riggleman]

Yes. Yeah, the DSM, it's called a idiot. And I think that's the issue that we have right now, is that with the DSM defining these type of individuals, we are going backwards in time.

[Amy McGrath]

People need to know that there are massive cuts going on right now to our public health institutions. The Trump Republicans are planning on cutting the cdc, which is the center for Disease Control, the National Institute of Health, they've already cut research, cancer research out of places like Johns Hopkins. $33 billion is being cut from the HHS budget and that's going to have huge implications. And it's not just like money, folks. They're cutting programs for young researchers to come work on becoming the PhDs that we need for the future to tackle some of these diseases. Trump has issued an executive order to withdraw from the World Health Organization, which has been, you know, it's not perfect, but it has been super important in fighting diseases around the world. We've decimated the center for Disease Control's Worker Safety center, the National Institute for Occupational Safety. I mean, all of these things are happening right now and it's going to have long term implications. But that's also why we're bringing in this important guest to talk about this.

[Denver Riggleman]

Yeah, you know what? Me and you don't want people to die because of stupidity, Amy. That's why we're doing this show. We want people to be facts based and truth based. That's why we're doing Truth in the Barrel. That's why I'm excited about this guest. That's why I'm honored to do this show, is because of topics like this. And I am. Yes, we can. We can try to make light of some of this, but I don't think. Listen, if we're not laughing, we're crying about what's happening right now in this country. And again, that's why I'm excited about the guest, and I'm ready to get to it, Amy.

[Amy McGrath]

So I think with the craziness that's going on, I've had the benefit of knowing someone really well whose story I think is an inspiration, but one who will give us a reminder of the value of science and the positive role that government can play in saving lives. And I think that's really important right now. In 1951, Marianne was 10 years old, living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the oldest of eight children, and she contracted polio. She spent a year in the hospital and in a children's home, a home, what they called for crippled children, where she was trying to recuperate, but she survived. She left with a paralyzed leg, but was happy to have survived during her time in the hospital, in her time in that home in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, recovering, Marianne was part of the historic scientific research program that developed the polio vaccine at the University of Pittsburgh under Dr. Salk. And many years later, Marianne went on to become a doctor herself, being one of the first women to graduate from the University of Kentucky, Kentucky's medical school in the 1960s, and Denver. She happens to also be my mother.

[Denver Riggleman]

I am so excited about this guest. I think it's the best guest we've had, Amy. I really do. And when you sent me what your mother had done, I want to say a couple things, and it's not to flatter you. It's not to, you know, just. Just to come off the top rope with exuberant types of praise. But the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I think there's a toughness to your mom reading about her going through polio, the barriers that you broke. I'm excited about this interview, especially when I saw that was your mom with the incredible, you know, background that she has. I'm really excited about this.

[Amy McGrath]

Well, let's bring her in.

[Denver Riggleman]

Oh, goodness.

[Amy McGrath]

All right.

[Denver Riggleman]

Hey.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Hey. It's embarrassing.

[Amy McGrath]

Oh, well.

[Denver Riggleman]

Oh, I didn't mean to embarrass you, Marianne. I'm just excited to meet you.

[Amy McGrath]

Well, so I'm really super proud and excited to have join us to talk about her story today and its connection to public health, that this is my mom, Dr. Marianne McGrath. Hi, Mom.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Hi, Aim. Hi, Denver.

[Denver Riggleman]

Hi, Dr. McGrath. It's great to meet you.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Oh, please, call me Marianne. Everybody does at this point.

[Denver Riggleman]

Yes, ma' am. Yes, ma' am.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

I tell you what, listening to all that reminds me how old I am.

[Denver Riggleman]

I just wanted to tell you really quickly. And, you know, Amy, I, you know, Amy and I now have known each other a good while, and, you know, looking at Amy's past, what she's done, the barriers that she's broken, her toughness, her ability to lean forward, to know somebody like Amy is an honor.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Then.

[Denver Riggleman]

And again, I don't want to embarrass you. I'm not trying to, you know, overdo this, but look at what you went through to become a doctor. Your knowledge of the healthcare system, but it's really about your toughness. Right. And your ability to push through things that other people I think, would find virtually impossible. So, again, I was more excited about this interview than I've seen in any guest. And I don't think there's going to be one better because you're also Amy's mom. And the way I feel about Amy and how awesome she is, I can see where she got a lot of her traits. Marianne. So that's why I was so excited to meet you and to talk about this topic. I know Amy and you have probably talked about this before, but that's why I was excited. So, Marianne, I apologize for embarrassing you. I don't want to, but I mean what I say, and it's just so. What an honor to meet you.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Thanks. I really appreciate that. Denver. You know, AM and I have talked a lot about the current administration and its foibles and its disasters, and healthcare is one area around which I feel very strongly for lots and lots of reasons, of course, but, oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.

[Amy McGrath]

Let me just start, mom, because I get the benefit of talking to you every day, and so I hear things from you. Obviously, I know your story really well, and I told a little bit of it to our listeners. But you not only have the life experience of understanding how important vaccines are, but you also then became a doctor and spent your life helping people and with your scientific knowledge and all that you've learned, I guess I'd first start out to ask you, when I was growing up, we didn't seem to have the pushback to vaccines, at least in my opinion, when I was younger. And now all of a sudden, I feel like maybe it's not all of a sudden, but I feel like there's more of a pushback. And I'm wondering, why do you think that is?

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Oh, gee, why don't you give me a tough question?

[Denver Riggleman]

We always ask the easy questions on your Marianne. They're very simple.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

I. I think that your memory is accurate, Amy. You know, I. In looking at what is, oh, dear God, almost a century of life experience, but only some of it, truly being able to integrate what I was seeing and experiencing, and really, I would say only the past half century being able to. To understand it a little bit better. But we lived in such a very different time. When I was a kid and when I became a mother and had my. My children, it was simply a different world. You can't imagine, nor can anybody, I think, who's been born in the last 50 years. Imagine a United States of America without any health care. Note, when I was a kid growing up, the whole concept of disease, which was still struggling with the idea that diseases. And by the way, at that point, you know, in the turn of the century and so on, the biggest killer of human beings in this country and nationwide and worldwide was infectious disease. And yet at that time, we were still trying to understand what was infecting things. And so it evolved what was at that time called a germ theory. You know, but we really didn't understand anything about the germs. We didn't know that there were different kinds of germs, bacteria, viruses, and that they acted very differently. They were found in different places, they were of different virulencies. You know, all those kinds of things were totally unknown. And at the time when plagues, for example, you know, killed hundreds of thousands of people worldwide, we knew that something was afflicted or going around, but we really didn't understand it. And if you don't understand its beginnings and its cause, you certainly don't have any leverage to stop it or treat it really, in anything but the most superficial ways. So, you know, when we feel like.

[Amy McGrath]

We'Ve gone backwards, though, like, I think we're supposed to know more right now, right?

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

I think in many ways we have gone backwards. Think about when. When I got polio, for example, I was 10 years old at that time, at the 1950. Okay, in. In those days, that was the dreaded disease of the time. Why? Because it struck people. Oh, dear God. It struck children, but it struck adults, too. And when it did, you were. If you lived, you were still out of commission most of the time. I mean, you really were men who had families to support, women who had homes to take care of. They couldn't go back to doing that. They had to be cared for. And so, you know, it really wreaked havoc, and we didn't know what caused it. And so people developed all kinds of phobias. For example, that year, my brother and I who used to walk to a pool, you know, public pool, swimming pool that was about a mile and a half, two miles away. We were. They closed the swimming pool because they didn't know that that might not be the place that the polio germ resided. But in those days, you know, I mean, it was kind of like the closest thing we've had is the worst of cities during the coronavirus. Okay? And even at that, rural areas that didn't see as much infection and didn't see the death did not develop the same kind of fear that, for example, New York City and residents around developed of this terrible virus during the AIDS epidemic. Cities in particular that had a high incidence of the development of aids, people were very frightened of what caused it. And at that time, we had knowledge of a virus, but we really didn't know what, besides sex, could transmit this virus. And, and people wouldn't go near individuals who had aids. I mean, it really was a. Was a commitment for nurses and doctors and other personnel to take care of AIDS patients. And they had all this garb on and so on is as frightening as the disease itself in some ways.

[Amy McGrath]

But we know so much more now in with technology and scientific discovery. But it's almost like so many people don't want to believe science. Now you would agree, like to have.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

A simple answer as to why there's so much resistance. Now I could give you a simple answer, but probably wouldn't be politically correct.

[Denver Riggleman]

Well, this is the show that's the same. Marianne, could you believe not politically correctly.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

We're living in an area disbelief and we're living at a time when people resist. People don't know the truth because the truth is rarely spoken. I think you all are an exception, and this is one of the reasons why I have so enjoyed your podcast. But the fact of the matter is people have had doubt sown about otherwise revered institutions, including science, including medicine. And as a result, fear again creeps in as a. As in disguise, I think, and shows itself today often as the need to assert one's own opinion and to do what I darn well please. Regardless, don't tell me what to do. And in this country, I think that that is the prevailing sentiment. I don't mean to be. Yeah, I guess I do, but it really has. And. And over the last decade, that certainly has been capitalized on by our current administration that, I mean, please drink bleach to cure Covid. Oh, come on. You know, and, you know, we see it every day and we see it in the news. The reason why people push back. Why? Because we're kicking out all the people who really know anything. We're putting down the institutions. And certainly every time we say something like that or every time it comes out of Trump's mouth that this is going to be defunded and this is going to be sued and this is going to be stopped, our appreciation of the value of things like education and things like science and things like the progress that we've made in so many areas that rely on those things, it just, you know, it throws our trust into chaos.

[Denver Riggleman]

So, Marianne, how do you feel then? You know, the biggest fear, you know, is superstition, you know, sort of winning back over science. And, you know, when you talked about swimming pools, right, closing the swimming pools because they weren't sure how polio was transmitted. It has to shock you with your background, your experience. By the way, I'm the oldest of eight also, so I get it. Right. Incredible.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Yeah.

[Denver Riggleman]

So, just so, just to let you know, what did you think about, you know, looking at the funding lines and, you know, research and development? Experimentation is what creates these scientific breakthroughs to save lives. It's incredible to have science in our lives. So when you see massive cuts to Health and Human Services, hhs, but also the nih, when you see the massive billions of dollars that are being removed from these programs, it's got to just give you chills down your spine to know that we might be going back to more of an era of superstition because we have an HHS secretary that believes that cell signals cause ear leakage. And I think that's not a great thing. Right. It's like not going to the swimming pools. If you have ear leakage, you're not going to want to use a cell phone. That's probably not what's causing it. You probably have a real medical condition. So what is your thought really, Marianne, on the lack of funding that's happening with HHS and NIH and where we're going? Because I think with your background, I think you probably can. You can actually speak to this better than just about anyone.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Well, I have to say, Denver, that it makes me cry. Literally, it makes me cry for two reasons. One is the practical knowledge that nothing that happens today as a breakthrough happened today. It happened over the past X number of years. And reaching a point of scientific breakthrough in any area always has foundational science behind it. And it has taken many people in many locations years to get to that point. That was also true of the polio vaccine, but we didn't hear as much about it because people were so focused on the relief that they experienced when it came available to them. But today, those same things are taking years. We've stopped not just the today, but taking that money away from the primary source of funding of the research has stopped everything in the pipeline. So not only today's findings, which could be earth shaking just as earth shaking as the polio vaccine, but in other areas are not the only things that have been stopped. All of the research. And to go back to it in the same way, even a year from now, if that funding is truly stopped, is going to be extremely difficult because you have to make up the things that you've missed in this time, and you may not have the same people to do it, which means a whole new group of people have to be available in order for us to get there. Where are they going? Where they're not going to stay here. I mean, scientists are already being recruited, highly recruited, by other countries because they've got the funding for the research. And make no mistake, they will have that. Today's findings, not us, just a by the by. But I have to say that the other thing about all this that makes me cry, I believe that as a country who has in the past recognized the importance of science and developing things that can help humanity, and we have been recognized and we have held that place, I think within world observation gives us an obligation to do something about that. I think that we as human beings have an obligation to help other human beings wherever we can. How can we not? How can we look at poverty everywhere? How can we look at illness? How can we look at suffering and war and not want to intervene in a positive way to stop it? I think that's, you know, that's a moral stance, I guess. But I believe that that's what we do as human beings. And we have done exactly the opposite. And it has not just hurt us. I mean, it's hurt the world. Taking away USAID aid, the organization which has been so significant in dealing with disease worldwide, is criminal, I have to say. It's a war of its own, and we are the ones that waged it through Trump. It's just appalling. My opinion.

[Amy McGrath]

I hear this argument about public health and government. The argument is that hey, we can do all this research through the private sector. We don't need public funds to do that. And you hear this and my, my pushback to that and I would like to get your opinion on this. The private sector is for profit and so they are going to do research into things that are going to make money eventually. But a lot of tackling diseases and trying to get ahead of some of the diseases here in the United States and around the world doesn't always, you know, make profits for, for these companies. And so they don't do the research. And that's why public funding of these sorts of things is so important. I mean, just to be simplistic about it, we didn't have public research back in the, so much back in the 30s and 40s and 50s. We had to raise a bunch of money, as you said, in order to tackle a very real epidemic at that time that was killing people. Why do we not just invest in long term public health and research so that we can kind of get ahead of things so that we don't get to the point where, you know, it's, it's an epidemic.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

I think you've looked at that very wisely and I have to say that yes, a private organization basically was responsible for the funding of the polio research. But if you look at research and its impact on illness, for example, or wellness for that matter, the vast majority of the research necessary to achieve a today thing is what would be better characterized as basic research? Okay, it doesn't have an immediate cure impact, but it's a necessary step. And there were those steps necessary at the time of the development of the polio vaccine. By the way, if anybody is interested in reading about an excellent book that categorizes all that happened in order to develop the polio vaccine was the Pulitzer Prize winning book entitled Polio by David Oshinsky. It goes over all of this, but it looks basically at the reality that most of the research that eventually creates, for example, a medicine or looks at the desired procedure that's going to be helpful or for that matter creates the perfect O ring for the rocket. You know, those kinds of things don't come in one step. They come in many steps that are consist of basic research. And no for profit company is going to spend 60% of its research funds and time and talent on basic research toward that one thing. Because a lot of times in basic research you don't even know what the practical applications of that are going to be. So that's one reason. The other reason is, quite frankly, that we would narrow the scientific research that's done to such an extent that it would be really wasted time and energy for many things that otherwise would develop out of a scientific, and I have to say, educational pursuit. Over the past 25, 30 years, in particular, research has gravitated to this lovely marriage of funding source, the National Institutes of Health and universities. And it makes a lot of sense for it to be there because the universities not only develop a lot of the basic research, but develop the talent that does the basic research and is a pipeline for us to provide people to do this in the future. That piece of university base is going to be moving out of the United States faster than you can blink an eye if we don't do something about this. And I'm very concerned about that. So I do think that it's, at this point in time, the scope of, of the research necessary to continue to keep the United States in a number one position scientifically is so great that it really could not be handled by even a small coalition of private companies, drug companies, for example.

[Amy McGrath]

Yeah.

[Denver Riggleman]

Well, Marianne, I mean, I usually get to end with a question, and I don't want to start with a really hard question like your daughter, you know, is. She tried to come up.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Thank you.

[Denver Riggleman]

You know, so hard. I mean, it's just really, really concerned me. But I have this, Marianne, I have to say this, listening to you, your background, your expertise. I always tell people that stupidity is terminal. But what you're saying too, is that stupidity, personal stupidity of people in charge is terminal for others now and long term. And you wonder about how many people are going to be affected long term. So I didn't want to end with an awful question, but with your knowledge, and if you're like, Denver, how dare you? And then, you know, Amy, you know, fire me off the show. But here's what I want to ask. Here's what I want to ask. Looking into the future. And when you're seeing the stupidity of this administration, a fantasist and conspiracy theorist is the HHS secretary. You see the funding cuts to NIH and hhs. You see the fact that we're going down this road regardless, right? And we have superstition, like you said, we probably shouldn't be ingesting or injecting bleach. Probably ivermectin wasn't the number one cure for Covid. Right. Or hydroxychloroquine. I'm fine. Right. So here's here it Is are we ready? Amy, please don't be mad at me. Here we go. We ready? What do you think as an illness class or something that you see with your vast knowledge of illnesses and what you went through, is there something, a specific illness or a type of illness that scares you in the future? And I know this is an awful question to end on, but is there an illness or type of illness that scares you that in the future that you think this funding coach could really harm children or harm people going forward?

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Wow. Oh, thanks for the not hard question.

[Denver Riggleman]

I wanted to ask a simple one to end it.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

You know, I have to say I think your, your observation about stupidity was probably the best, best one I could think of.

[Denver Riggleman]

Although fantastic. Yeah, that's stupid. Well, that's interesting. You say, you know what, that's why you're brilliant. I, you know, here's the illness and serious thing about stupidity, right? When we're looking at, you know, continuing to go after, you know, the class of what, bird flus, right. That we see starting to pop up and you see, right, the fact that we're looking at measles exploding again, right. Based on the fact that we don't believe in any type of, you know, I guess inoculation for measles. Now for some reason I think it's just vitamin D and maybe you rub baby oil on yourself to stop measles. But I think stupidity might be the thing that scares me the most, Marianne, is that if we don't have people that are based in science and they're based in a way of scientific theory, how to do experimentation, looking into the future, the funding to be able to do that without looking over your shoulder at crazies that are actually creating fantasy based policy. It scares me that as we go forward that we're having more and more people instead of being like you and like Amy, right. That you're pushing forward. You do incredible things in the educational system. You're forward leaning, you do experimentation, you do, you break barriers. We have people that are going to go back and rely on superstition and fantasy and I see that in my own family. You're very impressive. And when you said the fact, you said stupidity might be the one thing, I think you're right. You shocked me with the answer. It's dead on. Thank you. See, I told you it was easy, Amy. I told you your mom had.

[Amy McGrath]

I want to end on a little bit of a lighter question.

[Denver Riggleman]

I'm ready.

[Amy McGrath]

Because we've talked a lot of heavy stuff and there's a lot to worry about right now. And you just talked about some of that, Denver. This conspiracy theories of people not believing in government, not believing in public health anymore. Mom, of all of your many years, and I won't say how many. There's been many, many years of all of those. In your experience, what makes you hopeful right now?

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

You.

[Amy McGrath]

That is so sweet.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

My. My greatest gift in life has been my three children. I am incredibly blessed with three wonderful children. They make me hopeful. My seven grandchildren, they make me hopeful. Because in the midst of all that's going on, they still rise to the occasion. They still question. They still believe in what's good and holy and right. And they still are tolerant enough of other people to stay with their beliefs and recognize that forward movement is possible. That makes me hopeful.

[Denver Riggleman]

I can't beat that.

[Amy McGrath]

Amy. Thank you, Mom.

[Denver Riggleman]

Yeah. That's incredible, Mom.

[Amy McGrath]

That's a great way to end what, first of all, or, or lastly, I'm super honored that you are come on and, and be a part of this show. It's a lot of fun and, and I love you.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

I love you too. And I love you too, Denver. And I love you, too. I. I appreciate both of you. I appreciate the truth that you tell and your courage.

[Denver Riggleman]

Well, you know, your. Your kids make you hopeful and grandkids. It's amazing. I would tell you. You make me hope, hopeful. Marianne, that's all I got. I can't top what you just said about your incredible children and what you've done in your life. I'm out. That was too good.

[Amy McGrath]

Thank you.

[Denver Riggleman]

It was awesome to meet you. What an honor.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Nice to meet you, too. Thanks, ma' am.

[Amy McGrath]

Thanks, mom.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Love you.

[Amy McGrath]

Bye.

[Dr. Marianne McGrath]

Bye.

[Denver Riggleman]

Dr. McGrath.

[Amy McGrath]

Well, Denver, that was amazing. Absolutely love bringing my mom on to share with the American public because I've had the benefit of having her my whole life and having her knowledge and understanding of this stuff. It's just super important right now with all that is going on, that we have people who are going to tell us the truth in terms of public health. So it was a great show.

[Denver Riggleman]

So, Amy, I am so happy that your mom was on the show. It was incredible. Your mom also a technical term I like to use about people that are that incredible as badass. It's my scientific term. Your mom is certainly that.

[Amy McGrath]

She just likes Dr. McGrath.

[Denver Riggleman]

Dr. McGrath, which for me to be a doctor, incredible. And when she did it and to break those barriers. But I'll tell you this. If you want to hear from more incredible people like Amy's mom, you have to make sure that you download download us on your favorite podcast. You have to subscribe to YouTube. You have to follow us on our socials, which is everything, right? Amy, we got blue sky, we got X. We even are in true social. Amy, you're killing it on Instagram. We're doing that. I mean, we're everywhere. So people need to download us and need to follow us. Because if you want to get content like the incredible stuff you just heard, make sure you sign up for Truth in the Barrel. Thank you, Amy, for this incredible day.

[Amy McGrath]

Awesome. See you next time then.

[Denver Riggleman]

See you next time.

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