← Truth in the Barrel
Truth in the Barrel
Devil's Cut | We Dare You To Run For Office!
00:54:47
In the episode, Amy and Denver talk about their experiences running for office and make no mistake, they do not hold back! Learn about the highs, lows and the straight up ugliest parts about running for public office! It promises to be one jam packed...
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign hello, everyone. Welcome to Truth in the Barrel, Devil's cut. I'm Amy McGrath with my co host, Denver Riggleman, and today we've got a really fun show. Today we're going to be talking about the highs and lows of running for office and why it's so important to have good people to step forward to. Good to see you, Denver.
- [00:28]
B
Good to see you again from beautiful and incredible locations worldwide.
- [00:36]
A
Denver, still in the Middle east, but we're glad that you're with us today.
- [00:42]
B
I'm glad to be here and I don't know, Amy, this is going to be the most. I think it's going to be an incredible show. I've been looking forward to this. I know. If people want to listen to us, though, they better be subscribing to us and better be downloading the podcast, subscribing to YouTube and following us on channels because this show is going to be fire.
- [01:03]
A
Yeah. All right. We're so excited, of course, also to announce our weekly live show beginning June 10th. It's going to be the most distilled version of Truth in the Barrel. Just Denver and I talking about the news of the day and answering your questions live, of course, drinking whiskey along the way. Join us Tuesday, June 10, 7:30 to 8:30pm Eastern Time. Can't wait for that to start. And if you listen to the podcast version of Truth in the Barrel, if you're going to listen to the live version, I would recommend going on YouTube to do that because then you can participate and be a part of the show through the chat option. So you don't want to miss out on any of these exciting things coming down the pike here.
- [01:48]
B
No, you never want to miss what we're doing, Amy, because we're such badasses. And I cannot wait again for this show. This is going to be fun.
- [01:55]
A
Amen. Let's get to our whiskey minute. All right, so. So Today we have J.T.S. brown, Kentucky's finest Kentucky bourbon, established in 1855, coming at you from Bardstown, Kentucky. It is very good. That's what I'm drinking today. I know you're still in the Middle east and may not have the opportunity, Denver, to have some whiskey or bourbon, but I will do double. I will drink more for you.
- [02:24]
B
I love it. Now, Dubai is a cheers with my water, but I will tell you this, Dubai, obviously there's whiskey everywhere. It's just, you know, it's just a little odd in the domicile that I'm in to have whiskey right now or I would be drinking, I just want to let you know. But I'm glad you had a whiskey there. And by the way, Amy, now that you're, you know, you're on to screw top whiskeys. I know this show is nuts.
- [02:49]
A
Yeah, let's do it. If you want to talk about running for office, you definitely got to drink some. Some whiskey. All right, let's get to it. The goal of this show really is to sort of enlighten people about what it's like to run for office. You see a lot of politicians. You see them in sort of politician mode. Neither one of us, I think, in Denver, you can tell your story here, but neither one of us sort of grew up thinking, I'm going to be a politician someday. I'm going to. I'm going to be an elected office. I mean, for me, my dream was to be a fighter pilot. My dream was to be in the military. And I followed that. And it wasn't until later on when I sort of took stock at what my life was really about, which was protecting this country and protecting our democracy. And that's when I decided, you know, I got to try to be the change that I want to see in our political leadership. But I'm interested in what made you want to run for office, because you have this background in the Air Force and then again in tech and AI and the national security world. What made you say, I think I want to run for Congress?
- [04:07]
B
Gosh, Amy, I mean, you just said a lot there, right? I mean, I think people need to listen to what you said about you being a change agent, what you wanted to be, what you thought politics should be, what you thought service should be, for me, it boiled down to one word, rage. I was never involved with politics. And when I saw some of the things happening to my wife and I back as early as 2014, when we were opening our distilleries with some of the regulatory issues. I'd already had this sort of long line of real disappointments when I was supporting the DoD as a CEO, but also when I was a contractor. Some of the things I thought were really wrong, sort of structurally with our government. So it was sort of an evolution. I mean, never thinking politics would be the answer. Amy, honestly, I ran for governor for 10 weeks in 2016, and I was, to politics like a pig looking at a wristwatch. Right. I didn't even know what was happening. And you would think with me being an intelligence guy, I would have done preparation of Battlespace and did, you know, sort of did my Research on what I need, what I. What I could expect. But instead, Amy, I just got very angry at how people were being treated and at.
- [05:19]
A
Was there a specific moment that you decided, I'm gonna run?
- [05:24]
B
Yeah, there was, actually. And I know it's sort of a contextually odd story, but, you know, when I bought our 50 acres up on the Rockfish river, it was sort of the dream. You know, Christine and I had fought really hard. I'd finally sold a company. You know, we had graduated from eating at McDonald's, now we could eat at Outback Steakhous. So, you know, we bought 50 acres on the river and we were trying to start a distillery for her because that's what she wanted to do. And I remember I didn't know at the time that Dominion Power was trying to run a pipeline and taking property through eminent domain through all these properties. And I'd already been in fight with the Alcoholic Beverage Control in Virginia and all that. And all of a sudden one day, people just show up on our property and they walk on our property, start surveying, and I walk out there, I said, who the hell are you guys? Well, we're Dominion Power and we have a right to be on your property. And at that point, Amy, right there, after this massive argument with them, after everything I had been through with trying to get the company started, my 10 years in the DOD, my wife's dream, and them saying they were going to run right through where we were going to put our barrel house and our distillery. They were going to put a pipeline, a massive pipeline. It was then I'd had enough. And I remember it was a tripwire to me saying all the people who said Denver, maybe at some point you should serve. It was at that point, I'm like, maybe it's time. So it was really me just getting in a bar fight, Amy. It's really how I started.
- [06:44]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:45]
B
How about you? I mean, when was the time? When was the time for you?
- [06:48]
A
I think for me, I was finishing up my tour at the U.S. naval Academy. I was teaching there, and I was teaching national security courses, a course on constitutional development and US Government, a course on weapons of mass destruction. So it was all sort of national security, but it was also democracy related, my work there. And for me, I had had these former members of Congress that would come to my class to talk about what it was like to be in Congress. And I always signed up to have these guys as the guest speakers because it's a free day for me as an instructor. One of the speakers there was a man by the name of Ben Chandler, who had been a congressman in Kentucky in the 6th congressional district. And I'd seen a lot of members of Congress, but at we talked because we're both from Kentucky, he gave me his business card and I didn't think too much of it other than, wow, this is a great guy. And we talked about bourbon and we talked about horses. Well, a year later, the election of 2016 happens and we elect what I thought at the time was a very poor leader, and that was Donald Trump. He was sort of everything that I looked at, what a leader should be. He was sort of the opposite, arrogant, wouldn't take responsibility for anything, lied about everything and had no character. And I felt like, wow, where is our country going? And I think I need to step in there and be the leader that I want to see in this country. Because a lot of people didn't like politicians, they didn't trust them. And I felt like, wow, I'm getting to the end of my 20 year career. I can do this, but I don't know how to do this because I don't know any politicians. So after, after Donald Trump won, I rooted through my, my desk in my office at the Naval Academy. I pulled out this, this guy's business card, wrote him an email and said, hey, do you remember me? I was that instructor that you came to my class. If I came back to Kentucky after I retired and jumped into politics, is that, is that crazy? And he wrote me back right away and said, no, I don't think it's crazy at all. In fact, we need good candidates, new, fresh, exciting candidates like you. You have a lot to give to the state and if you come back, I will help you. And he did. He linked me up with lots of different people, including the man who would become my campaign manager. And, and we went from there. And so was, wasn't a specific moment where I said, yes, I'm going to do this. It was more of a gradual building to that point over the next six months. At the end of, of 20, let's see, it's 2016 at that point. And by the time 2017 rolled around, I think, yeah, I was going to retire, I was going to do this. So that's how it started.
- [10:09]
B
Wow. I mean, there's still some anger though, right? When you're talking about Trump as a leader. I mean, you still had a, it seems to me you still had a bit of anger. You know, it was a bit of, it can't be this way.
- [10:19]
A
And it seems it was almost like a, a I can't believe this man is leading our country. Yeah, I have to understand why people voted for him, and I have to not focus so much on him, but be the leader that I want to see in this country, somebody who is honest to the extent that they can be, who takes responsibility, who doesn't say there's a simple answer for everything, who's willing to compromise, who's willing to put in the work, who doesn't lie to people. I mean, that was one of the things I learned on my congressional fellowship when I learned about the budget that year on the Hill. One of the biggest Oprah's aha moments was the whole idea of debt and deficit, which I know we've talked a lot about on this show. So much of that stuff was just lies, and I was tired of it. And I'm kind of a teacher. I had that background. My dad was a teacher. And I wanted to be a leader that people could believe in.
- [11:28]
B
It's an incredible story, right? The evolution. Because I guess I should tell people. The first time I decided to run, I was in my late 40s, only ran for 10 weeks, as I told you, for governor of Virginia, like an idiot. But it wasn't until almost after a year later, I was asked to run when people saw the only the 10 weeks I'd never run for federal office. AMY they came to my distillery. The person who preceded me, Tom Garrett, actually resigned because of alcoholism. So it's a little ironic they asked a distiller to run after an alcoholic leaves office. But that one, when I decided that, I actually decided to run knowing I was going to lose because of the crazies that were running for his spot. So what's interesting is the first time was rage. The second time, I guess it was anger. But I thought I was trying to protect the district and maybe me, I could change the votes of a few, so maybe somebody less crazy would win. That was it. That's what I was asked to do, and I ended up winning.
- [12:29]
A
So, Denver, you ran, I think, in an R+6 or R +7. And before you answer that for listeners, every district has a rating. And I think a lot of people don't know this, whether it's if it's a red district or it's a blue district and how, how much it's red or blue. So if you're R +1, that means you lean Republican, but only by one point. If you're R +30. Right. That means that you're really, really red. You're like the state of Kentucky in a, in a state race, if you're blue plus five, you're, you're, you're kind of blue, but not totally solid. So anywhere in that 10 range is kind of still winnable by the other side. But you ran Denver, I think, in an R +7. Is that what you said?
- [13:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's called the Cook pvr, the Political Voting Index. And what, you know, it's pretty amazing. It was R +7, but sometimes it had been R +5. They weren't. It sort of floated in there, but. Yeah, I mean, I mean, the thing was, it was during a blue wave. If you remember the election in 2018, it was not a lot of Republicans won. And I ended up winning by the PBI number, which is sort of crazy, but. Yeah, I only had four days to prepare for a convention with only 37 people to choose. And it was like wired for sound for the furthest white candidates. Right. Candidates. And that was Freudian.
- [14:02]
A
In Virginia, the A convention selects the primary winners.
- [14:08]
B
Yeah, I think partly Virginia changed the law just a couple years ago, probably based on what happened to me on two fronts. Number one, I won in a convention by one vote. And during COVID I lost in a convention when they, when they limited a primary because they thought I might win and they hated a Republican that officiated a gay wedding. So, yeah, my primaries were both conventions and they were tooth and nail awfulness, and that's how I got through.
- [14:34]
A
Yeah. And I think everybody that's listening also needs to realize that elections around our country in different states are all done differently. In Kentucky, we have a primary, it's a closed primary. It usually happens in the spring. The filing deadline is usually in January. But every state is different. And so if you're thinking about running for any seat, whether it's a federal seat or a state seat, one of the first things you got to figure out is when's the primary, how's it run? When's the filing deadline? What are the requirements to get in? All of those things are really important. And when I talk to candidates on the phone, I'm surprised that a lot of them don't know some of these things. And I always say you got to go find that out before you do anything.
- [15:24]
B
Absolutely. And it's just like, it's just the first portion of running right is finding out what kind of, you know, knock down, drag out, bar fight you're going to be in. Whether it's a closed primary. In Kentucky, where It's a convention in Virginia or in Virginia, since it's completely different from Kentucky. There is no registration for Democrat or Republican. They've gone to primaries. So it's pretty amazing, the differences in each state, which we can have an incredible conversation later about why the election wasn't stolen in 2020 because of the 50 different states and all the ways that they do things. We. But that's. So there you go, Amy. So now, you know, I ran out of rage and then out of hoping to stop crazies, and you ran out of, I think, integrity, but also an, I, I think an anger about the person who was elected president. I'm going to stick with that. I still think you were mad.
- [16:16]
A
No, that's fine. I, I think you're right to say that there was that. He definitely prompted me to put my hat in the ring, not necessarily to be anti Trump. It was more like, this is the guy we have leading our country and he has a man of such poor character and honor. Where are we going? We need to have better leaders to counter him. We need to have better leaders that if people are voting for him, we have a problem. We need to have better leaders coming up. And so I wanted to be a part of that, and I still want to be a part of that. I think that's really important for our country, the United States of America, to have leaders with character and honor. It was something that was instilled in me at the United States Naval Academy when I went there, that this was a part of leadership. You know, you can muddle through with leaders who are sort of shitbags, but you're not going to be really successful unless you have leaders that have these things called this thing called integrity. And so while I had many policy disagreements with Bush 2, for example, or Mitt Romney or some of these other Republicans, I never believed that they were not persons of character and honor. The way I fundamentally look at Donald Trump and say, this is a man who just is not an honorable man, in my opinion. But that aside, when I ran, I had to kind of put that aside and say, and I did say I would work with him on policy issues because he was the president right at the time when I ran. On the same note, I wanted to make sure that people knew that I was going to represent them and their interests as well. And so it was really interesting. The other thing that I think a lot of people don't know, and I kick it over to you, Denver, for your insight on this, is I think a lot of people think that the national parties kind of tell you what to say and how to say it. That is just not true at all.
- [18:37]
B
No.
- [18:37]
A
And I think a lot of people think it's that the national parties fund your campaign. And at least in my race in Kentucky, that didn't happen either. So all of the fundraising we got was organic through our own campaign, what we went out and got, and that people were inspired around the country to contribute. It wasn't the party at all. And both in the congressional and the Senate, not once did the party ever tell me what to say. I don't know how the Republican side works.
- [19:09]
B
Yeah, the party really didn't. You know, what's incredible about funding is I started with $0 when I won the convention and my opponent was already, I think, at three point some million when that happened. And by the way, I ran against Olivia Wilde's mom, you know what I mean? So Leslie Coburn. So it wasn't the best feeling in the world. And I know we're going to get to, you know, Bigfoot, erotica, Nazis and toll of the Antichrist at some point. But you know what's crazy is that I first had to prove I could even fundraise to get the attention of the national party or the National Republican Congressional Committee, which was led by, at that time, Kevin McCarthy, as you know. Now the NRCC is led by certain people who actually lead the NRCC, but McCarthy was the party leader. So I had to impress McCarthy, right? That's what you have to do. And she had to say, okay, I can fundraise and do all that. But my fundraising, most of my fundraising came from special interest groups, right? You have the general people who actually fundraise, but you have other people that come in these massive groups that are for you, like the Freedom Fund. Now the Freedom Fund was actually backed by the Freedom Caucus, but they didn't give quite as much as the NRCC fund. Now, this is after I did all my fundraising, I would say the national party for me probably funded about 20 to 30% of my race at the most. The rest was me, right? But what they did was in some respects, sometimes they would introduce me to other groups that would help fund. But what it really came down to is dialing for dollars, but me putting out national press releases to get attention because I was so far behind the curve, Amy. Like I was so far behind the curve, this newbie that nobody knew, right? This, this, you know, chubby white cat out of the hills of Appalachia, you know, rolling in heavy, you know, full Guns ablazing, you know, me trying to rock and roll to get as much money as I can. I mean, that's really what it came down to. And then, you know, of course, I've never been a stranger, as you know, Amy, right? So I was sort of a natural with calling people and talking to people. So eventually I raised a couple million bucks in four months, and that's really what got me over the hump. I think in my last month, I raised $1.1 million, right, to make sure that I could at least match, you know, something that's going on. And. And, you know, Amy, you raised massive money, right? I mean, you had to raise money on levels that even I look at, and I'm like, holy cow, right on your Senate race. And I'm like, how did you do that? But, you know, fifth District of Virginia, this race got a lot of new. Got a lot of press because, you know, of the things that happened to me, which I know we're going to get into, because the questions that we're going to ask back and forth.
- [21:43]
A
Well, and we'll get into that. I think on the money thing, I think one of the things that people may not fully understand is money doesn't necessarily buy you a win. It doesn't mean that if you raise a lot of money and you don't win, you're a bad candidate. You have to go back to that pvi sort of, what do you call it, scale, talked about at the very beginning. Denver, you ran in an R&7 district. When I ran for Congress, I ran in like an R +12 district, I think, at the time. And that's a pretty big hump to get over. And so we raised, I think, 8 million or something around that, and that made us competitive, and we almost won that race. And I'm really proud of that race because it was my first race and I was running for all the right reasons, as I did the second one. But in that race, the national party on the other side saw that we were running a really good race and my opponent needed more money at the end, and they. The. The national Republican Party was able to pull out of other people's races around the country that they saw were really close, that they just couldn't fund anymore and consolidate into Kentucky 6. And that allowed my opponent to. To have enough money to get through to the end, however, and I didn't win. Right. I lost by two and a half points. But all of these other candidates around the country who were Democrats did win because. And I think that it's a bigger picture. And so I was really proud of that. And then in the Senate race, you know, we, we raised a lot of money. Some of that was because I was going against Mitch McConnell, who a lot of people didn't like. Some of it was because I knew how to do it. I had a great team, I had done it before. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to win. It just makes you competitive because if you don't have the resources to run a solid campaign, you're not really competitive. It's very, very hard in the United States of America to win a campaign. That's what I'll say about money.
- [24:11]
B
Well, I think what people need to know, you lost what to Andy Barr by what, four points?
- [24:17]
A
I think it was two and a half or three, but I don't even know.
- [24:20]
B
Well, people need to know. That means that Amy overperformed by 7 to 8 on the PVI scale. I'm just letting people know that's an over performance. Right. So for me, during a blue wave, I performed at pvi. I was only one of the only candidates to perform at pvi, which means I won by about seven points. But I think people need to understand with the fundraise, you know, Amy is able to, you were able to go out and really swing the baseball bat. But here's what happens when you have the national party come in for an incumbent like they came in for Andy Barr, is that if you have that kind of money that flows in, you're completely at the whim of the party leader, then you have to do what they say. So money. Also there's this really evil flippy thing that happens. Amy forced the NRCC to drop money out of parties and to come in for Andy. Now Andy is now literally part of the party system. He has to be under McCarthy because McCarthy has to go to the CLF, the congressional leadership Fund, which the CLF is like the evil arm of the NRCC that does the negative ads. And they got to go against Amy. Right. So they got to pay these high end consultants to fund them to go after Amy with all the evil they can muster. Which is what happened with McConnell when you raised probably $100 million. Right. So that's the thing that I want the audience to know is what Amy did was she forced the NRCC to intervene, but she also highlights or she forced Andy right to toe the line and become absolutely part of the system up on the Hill where he has to vote the way he has to vote because they own him. So there's all that that's happening simultaneously. So it's incredible that you overperformed. It also made you a national figure. And I think at this point, the base, the fact that you've overperformed, you've gone against the people like that, people need to understand you're now a national figure that could probably run for a larger office in the future. Listen, it's amazing what you did and I think that's what again, I just, as we're talking about what it's like to run. Yeah, Amy McGrath lost to Andy Barr, Mitch McConnell and PBI dominated our slanted districts, but boy, did she kick some ass. Right. And that's, and for me it was sort of the same. But of course, you know, I got sideways pretty quick on a flat spin, as you know, Amy, with the Republican Party. But you know, it's pretty amazing. I just wanted to bring that up to people where they understand what the cascading effect of what happened to you was.
- [26:46]
A
Yeah. And here's another thing that people ought to know, Denver, when you raise money, and we're certainly thankful, and I know you are to everybody who has ever given to your campaign. Because, you know, it's not just you, it's these generous people around the state and around the country. They give because they believe in you. They believe in your values, they believe in your leadership. But that money doesn't go into candidates pockets. It gets, it's, it's spent on, on digital ads, it gets spent on tv, it gets spent on flyers, it gets spent on structure for your campaign for people. The field offices and field work. It is all part of it. You cannot, even when you run for, for Congress, how many people are in a congressional district? 600, 700,000 per congressional district. There is no way people, there is no way that you can knock on 600,000 doors. There's just no way. It's not possible. If you're running for maybe city council or something like that, you might be able to knock on every single door in your district, but not for a federal office, certainly not for Senate. So how do you get your message out? You get your message out by ads. And that is just our system and that costs money. So the vast majority of what you contribute to campaigns goes to that and it doesn't go to candidates. And so I, I just think that's really important. But I want to ask you before we get into Bigfoot, because I, I know that's, that's, that's what everybody's Waiting for interesting piece of your campaign. But what about your family? Because we don't talk enough about family. Like, I. I had three small children and a spouse. But how Denver did. Did your family take it when you ran and during the campaign and even when you were in office?
- [28:46]
B
Well, listen, sometimes, and I'm trying to be delicate here, I'm a bit of an asshole, right? So when I ran, actually, I remember I called my wife, and it's on accident, by the way, Amy. It's because I'm sort of add as you know, sometimes with this stuff. But when I ran, my wife and I just got asked, I was in the distillery and I said, hey, I got a meeting tonight. They asked me to run. They were at the distillery asking me that I was going to go to a dinner. She goes, well, honey, make sure you call me. Let's have a family discussion before you announce. And I'm like, absolutely. Well, I was only halfway paying attention, Amy, you know, so when we. When we actually got to the point where I'm at the dinner, the consultant goes, hey, let's announce right now on Facebook that you're running. I'm like, yeah, sure. So my wife found out I was running for Congress on Facebook.
- [29:36]
A
Oh, that's not good then.
- [29:38]
B
It was awful. I don't even have the words, like, even my kids are like, dad, why are you such a jerk? You suck. And so, I mean, that's really what happened. So when I got home, my wife was sort of waiting at the door. You know, like. Like the old movies where you come in after a late night drunk and you know your friends are carrying you to the door. Well, she had that look, even though I wasn't drunk and they weren't carrying me to the door. The look was like, I should kill you right now with a knife to the throat. But as the run happened, it was actually brutal for my family. I don't have the words now, you know, when I was elected, after the death threats and stuff with. With QAnon and the conspiracy theories and all that kind of stuff, that was pretty bad. But what I was accused of, the lies, the awfulness, the amount of money thrown against me to try to ruin me personally did affect my family downstream a lot. Even in doctor's offices, everything right. You know, your dad's that guy. So pretty crazy, even to the point. There were really awful pictures of me put out publicly in my district. It was pretty brutal.
- [30:52]
A
You gotta know that you're going to be, for lack of a better word, shit on. Okay? And You've got to know that there's going to be all these pundits, all these people who have never had the guts, shall we say, to run themselves, who will throw darts at you, who will tell you how you. They'll laugh at you. They'll. They'll say that, you know, you're a terrible candidate, or they'll critique you. I think the biggest thing for listeners out there is that, you know, if you're thinking about running for office, you really should not listen to anyone who hasn't run. You know, in terms of, like, being criticized. If you decide to run, you know, it's okay to take criticism, but from people who haven't actually done it themselves, they don't really know what it's like. I think, yes, there were negative times, there were really hard times, but overall, there was a lot of positive things that happened in my campaign that I will never forget that I just inspired the hell out of me. And in terms of my family, my kids were really small when I ran for Congress. In fact, when I lost, the night that I lost was a really tough night. My oldest son was the only one who was still awake because the other ones were sleeping. They were toddlers. And he was on his computer. He was on his little iPad, and he didn't have a computer, he had an iPad. He was, like 5 or 6, and he was playing Minecraft or something. And it was like the world came down, right? I lost. It was national news. I felt like the world was sort of caving in on me. And I remember Teddy looking up from the. We were in a hotel room in Richmond, Kentucky, where I was going to go out and give my concession speech. And I remember Teddy looking at me saying, mom, did you. Did you win? And I looked at him, and I'm, like, about ready. I'm, like, crying. And I don't want to cry because I've got to, like, go out and give the concession speech, right? So, like, I don't want to be crying, but I'm, like, on the verge of tears. And I look at him and I said, ted, no, your mom didn't win. I lost thinking that this was, like, the biggest thing on the planet. And you know what he said to me? Denver. Oh, okay, well, better luck next time, you know, or something like that. I mean, I don't even remember what he said, but it was just like. It was kind of like, I'm going back to my Minecraft game, you know, And. And it. And it. It. It brought me back down to earth. It Brought me back down to like, I'm going to be okay. All right, no more tears. Let's get out there. Let's do the concession speech. It's all good, you know, and that's kind of what it's like, you know, it's hard. It's hard to go through $100 million of attack ads which Mitch McConnell spent to smear my name in Kentucky. Yeah, that's hard. But if you know who you are, you know who you are on the inside. The people that know you the most also know who you are. And so those attack ads really, you know, we're still standing.
- [34:15]
B
Yeah, you're still here. And, you know, I remember, amy, it was 11pm and my phone rings. I had just released. I was on top of the world, right? Our polling had come out. They're like, Denver, we cannot believe it. Your name recognition has more than quintupled. Your positives outweigh your negatives. You know, I'm like, that's right. I just got done writing a actual op ed about white supremacy based on what happened in Charlottesville, remember, in August with Unite the Right rally. So I'm like, I'm unbeatable. Well, 11pm that night, I get a call from my consulting goes, deborah, do not turn on the tv. Do not look at Twitter. My life was ruined. Or they tried to ruin my life with one tweet, which actually was another warning I had for my oldest daughter when I was about to run. Amy, I just won that stupid convention by one vote. She said, hey, dad, on your Instagram, for your birthday, a lot of people sent you stuff with Bigfoot. Stuff, obviously I wouldn't write, you know, with your. With your head on a Bigfoot body and the penis blacked out. You should take that down. And I'm like, honey, everybody knows that stuff's a joke. You can see that it was sent to me, right? And I put it on Instagram because it was my military buddies. Nobody's gonna care. I mean, how ridiculous. Like, what do you know about politics? Oldest daughter, how. Oh, come on. It's ridiculous, right?
- [35:31]
A
Let me guess. You didn't take it down.
- [35:33]
B
I didn't take it down. So I guess the defense, you know, the Democrats, oppo research found it, and all of a sudden there was a tweet saying that I was a Bigfoot erotica devotee and Nazi. Now, let me tell you, when that. When I got that call, I said, well, that's ridiculous. You know, first. First of all, Nazi, what are they even talking about, right? And A Bigfoot erotica. What is. This is. This is crazy. Nobody's gonna believe it. Well, I was. By that time, I didn't know I was number one worldwide on Twitter. And the reason why is because Olivia Wilde, Leslie Cockburn's daughter, Coburn's daughter, had actually retweeted it. And so then all of a sudden, I was the most pilloried Bigfoot eroticist, made up completely. I wrote a book called Bigfoot. It's Complicated, about disinformation and belief systems that ruin people's lives. People know it if they read the book, but nobody cared. What they cared about was this story. And So I had 40 interviews. Four. Zero over three days. The first one in New York Times. But, you know, there was part of me that was so angry, so enraged, so embarrassed. But also, it was a little bit funny, right? It was a little funny. So my first interview with the New York Times, Amy, they asked me straight up, they said, Mr. Riggleman, are you actually a Bigfoot erotica devotee? Are you into Bigfoot pornography? And I said, well, I would answer that question, but I don't want to alienate any of my Bigfoot voters. And at that. So there was this silence on the end, and then they just started laughing, like, wait a minute. You're not taking this seriously. Well, I should have, because I was pilloried on Saturday Night Live. Colbert, Fallon, Kimmel destroyed me. Colbert actually made fun of my name, but also made fun of how I was dressed. I mean, if I could get with Stephen Colbert today, I literally would kick his ass. So that's. That's. I'm still there, right? But there's another part of me that was able to utilize it because it showed who I was as a human being. And that was I would still run the campaign and I could still laugh about it, and that's what won. But you know what really got me over the hump, Amy? Are you ready for this? The Democrats turned against their own candidate for what she did to me. And you would think it's because she lied. You would think it's because she made it up. She was an awful human being. We can go all down the line, but you know why they really came to my defense? Because they thought she was kink shaming me. I can't even. It's just ludicrous. Ludicrous, Right. So that's what happened, and that's the nuttiness. You know, you talk about being dragged. But then I got start. Then what happened was you get this downstream effect where People say you're a pedophile because you're in a Bigfoot pornography now. Remember? Never was, right. Or I get death threats, right? And things like that. That I must be some kind of pervert, right? And. And it was. That's the thing, right, is that there's this. People don't understand that it's a human being on the other end of that. But also people don't understand the power of the disinformation complex or the power of how people portray you based on money or that most political consultants are pieces of shit. That is what it's like out there.
- [38:47]
A
Well, hard to follow that. But, I mean, I would say that it's really difficult, I think, for people who haven't run because there are so many crazies in office who are just totally out there. And so you have this feeling that, wow, almost everybody that runs must be crazy in some way. But that's just not true. As you said, you know, we're just normal human beings. I mean, I remember during the campaigns just dealing with my children, just having to go up on stage knowing that I had a kid that was crying in the background because, you know, he stubbed his foot or he just wanted to be near me. And it was just like I was a normal person. And it was hard for me at times to. To be the smiling, happy warrior candidate, but also just a regular mom and a person as well. I. I just. I think that maybe was the appeal to some degree for. For a lot of people had said, hey, you're so authentic. Yeah, it's because I'm real. Like, you know, this is. This is real life for me. But we need good people who are real to step forward, who may not have a political last name, who may not have grown up within a political party. I wasn't a Democrat, mind. I was an independent my entire adult life in the military. I married a Republican. To me, what jersey you wore was not what defined me. What defined me was being an American and the values that I learned in the military and from Kentucky and leadership. And so I feel like if you're the kind of person that has it in you that you have thick skin, that you're somebody with moral courage, you need to step forward for whatever that spot is, whether it's city council or Congress, you name it. Because our country needs good leaders now more than ever, I think.
- [41:14]
B
Amy, if I may. I think it's your DNA. You know, I. You know, I think military service imprints DNA. I think we're born with certain DNA, but, and this one, I think it's DNA that's grown out of duty, service, and integrity that other people I don't think have. Listen, narcissists and sociopaths run for political office. We've seen it, you know, people who don't care. Right. But I think, you know, even now, at our young ages, I think that we are ready maybe to run again. Not because we want to. I'd almost rather set myself on fire than run again. But I definitely think that it's in your DNA. I don't think you're done. You know, the way that, the way that you present and I know you're like, gosh. And I don't think people realize we're doing this right now, doing these questions in real time. Yeah, it's going to be on the Devil's Cut episode. But Amy and I are talking right now. Real and real thing is this, people like Amy McGrath should run for office and, and be of service. I should probably run again and be of service. I don't know if we should be like John Wick, be a service, but I feel like that in politics sometimes. But I think right now, you know, with, with where you're at, I think you have a cultivated DNA of integrity and goodness that comes through when you talk to people, and I think that's important. But I think it's very difficult for good people to run because of what happens. And I know I was sort of being glib about consultants, but the people that attacked you, they don' the people that attack me, they don't care. What they care about is winning. We have this, we have this awful bipolar world. We have this two sides, this tribal sides that only care about winning regardless of what they do to others. And that's an issue. And I think, you know, if I go back in time, George Washington was right about the party system. I think, I think we're just in this space where you never cared about your jersey, Amy. You cared about was right. And those are people that need to run. And God damn it, I, you know, I, I, it just sucks that I feel like I have to go through this again, that I am going to run again. And I got a feeling, Amy, I just got this feeling down deep. I think you're going to, too, so.
- [43:19]
A
Well, I don't know, I don't know about that. But I'm very determined to help others who want to jump in the arena for, you know, whatever role that speaks to them. I think that's really important. You know, Denver, I actually have a package that I set up after I lost the Senate race to specifically help women who have served get into elected office. It's called honor bound PAC. It's honorboundamericans.com and the reason that I did it was because the hardest part, and I don't know if you agree with this, but I think for me, one of the hardest parts to get to getting started was the money piece. If you don't come from a political last name or a super large network or you're independently wealthy yourself, it's really hard to get started. And so I created this pack to help women around the country who have served start and get going. So check that out. If you're listening and you care about getting good people, maybe you can't run yourself, but you want to help good people get started, check out that pack. Honorbound Americans dot com.
- [44:37]
B
Hey, I love that. I mean, that's. That's what you do, Amy, right? That's what you do. And you know the thing about good people running, as we were talking, and I want to tell people this, and Amy, I know you ran a completely positive campaign against Andy Barr. Is that correct? Never went negative. I. Yeah, you know, I don't know if you. I don't know if you went negative against McConnell. I don't remember.
- [45:01]
A
I. I learned my lesson after the first campaign.
- [45:05]
B
Think about what everybody. I want you to think about what Amy just said. So here's what I did, right? So I get accused of Bigfoot erotica. When I started the campaign, I told my guys, I said, I want to try to be as positive as I can. They're like, well, it's going to happen where you can't be. I'm like, no, I'm so much better than everybody else. Charismatic, good looking, you know, obviously, as everybody can see, right? So you know I can get away with it, right? No, when that happened to me, the night of the Bigfoot erotica Twitter fiasco and all of that, I called my consultants, think. We talked at 2 in the morning. And you know what I told him, Amy, go scorched earth. Whatever she said, twist it. Whatever we have to do, crush her. And we did. And I think, looking back, I became what I hated to win. And I think I regret. So. I mean, I was so enraged, I'm like, you know, everybody says, oh, it's just politics. You got to have thick skin. Yeah. But you also got to hit back. And then you think, what am I giving up as a human being by doing what I'm Doing now?
- [46:07]
A
Yeah.
- [46:07]
B
Did they strike first? Hell, yeah. If I'm in a bar fight and you come up with a bottle, Right, you got me the bottle. I'm coming to you as a chair. I mean, that's just the way I'm wired. And so that's the thing.
- [46:18]
A
I think people need and want a fighter. So, you know, in. In my first race in the congressional race, I ran all positive ads. I thought I could win by running all positive ads. Andy Barr ran all negative ads, positive ad with him and his family, and then he had 24 negative ads, and the race became about me and not him. And it. And that's. That's what happened. So tactically, I needed to have. I needed and I could have run an ad that basically said, talked about his votes, talked about what he did, that that hurt the constituents, and I failed to do that. And I learned my lesson. So when I ran for senate against Mitch McConnell, my ads, my, you know, what you would call negative ads against Mitch McConnell, there was, there was no falsehoods in those. It was all true. It was about his voting record. It was about his actions. And I ran against somebody that had, you know, books, we had large lists of things that Mitch McConnell had done that we could have used against him to try to show voters in Kentucky why he needed to go. It's just also very hard if you're running, you know, as a Democrat in a. In a really red state, to get over that hump. So many people. I always tell people I wasn't just running against Mitch McConnell in 2020. I was running against years and years and decades of labeling Democrats because I had that D behind my name, right? Labeling Democrats as something terrible. And that's what I was running against. Not just that one year. I was running against years of that labeling and that branding. And so it's very hard to get over. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't get in the ring and try, but that's the reality.
- [48:29]
B
So, I mean, you would think from your, from the time you ran for the House to the Senate, and people need to understand how big a difference that is. A house district might be 750,000 max statewide is a whole different ball of wax. Amy, we both did it. You did it at a much longer and protracted and incredible pace than I did. But I think. I think what people are hearing, too, Amy, and I'd love your take on this. Is that your evolution? When you're looking at a statewide Race. Your tactics do have to change based on who you have to appeal to. But it's interesting that, you know, you did learn that you had to swing the bat with barbed wire on it a bit, right?
- [49:08]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, look, running for congressional seat is different than running statewide, but the same, the same structure is there. It's just bigger. Yeah, it's just bigger. You have a bigger staff. You go from a staff of, you know, 15 to a staff of 200. You know, in, in. In the, in that, in that race. I mean, it's big. The, the money, everything is, Is just bigger. If you have the basic leadership skills, you can do it. And I, I, I sort of want to. Want to end our, our talk today on a note of inspiration, because I know we've talked a lot about some of the craziness of hard things that we had to deal with. The bottom line, though, is if you're an American that loves this country and you have it in you to run and be a leader, you need to do it. I have strapped on a $70 million jet to my back, and a lot of people think that that takes courage. You know what, what takes more courage is putting your name on the ballot and getting people to either vote for you, taking the hits because you know it's the right thing to do because you know that you can be the best representative for the people. That takes courage. And that's the kind of thing that we need in this country. I believe that's what's going to really help us right now, help us get through this time. And even more than podcasts, more than tweeting, if you're somebody that has the, the financial ability to put your name on the ballot, the leadership ability, do it. We need you.
- [50:57]
B
You know, hell, you inspired me, Amy, even beyond the fact that I feel no inspiration for running at all. I think it's brutal. I think it's meant for people that sometimes aren't doing it for the right reasons. But I want to flip it a bit. The inspirational part is when you actually get to the other side when you said courage, Amy, what people need to understand is courage is not having any fear. Right? Courage is working through fear, but it's also working through a brutality of awfulness that you're going to do if you run for office. But there's only three words I want to tell you right now, everybody listening to this, and what Amy McGrath did and what I did. And those words, I think, transcend the inspiration of running. The honor of service. I think it Transcends everything that you can say about what running a campaign is like or what running in a campaign is like. And it's these three words. Embrace the suck. Because it's gonna suck. It's gonna be awful. People are gonna hate you. But if you can't embrace the suck, don't run. But if you can and you care about this country, get your ass out there, drag an ax and do what it needs to do, what needs to be done to win or to do the best you can against a candidate you don't like. Yeah, there's a two party system. Have integrity in the way that you run, but know that it's gonna be a knockdown, drag out, swing the bat, blood off your forehead. Nights where you're laying awake looking at the ceiling, doing the right thing. All the doubts, all the evil fears are coming. But guess what? Your job as an American is to participate. And you need to do it. So embrace the suck. Get out there, listen to what Amy McGrath said about what it's like to serve. Listen to what it's. Listen to me. What it's like to serve. Don't put any Bigfoot pictures on your Instagram and go out there and run. And that's what I say after this conversation because now I'm ready to go back out and kick some ass.
- [53:04]
A
Well, and the last thing I'll say, not, not everybody can run. We. I understand that. But as an American, you right now, do what you can. Some people can knock on doors. Some people can be a part of a campaign. Some people can write a check to campaigns. Some people can run themselves. Whatever you can do. You know, we're not asked to storm the beaches of Normandy like the greatest generation. We're not asked to take up arms and fight in Gettysburg. But we are in a time in this country where we are asked to step up. And so I am asking everyone who is listening, what are you doing? To step up? What are you doing right now? That's what you have to look at internally and be the American leader that we need today. So that's what this show is about. I love doing this show with you, Denver, and I can't wait to see you on the next show. Let's get going.
- [54:06]
B
Let's get going. You know what? And like Amy McGrath says, if you're not going to step up, step out. Remember, if you want to listen to great content and inspirational words like this, you need to subscribe to our YouTube and download all the podcast channels you listen to us on and follow us on all the social media. That's the only people you should be following are Amy McGrath and myself, and Truth in the Barrel on social media. So thank you, Amy. Thank you for everything you've done. This was awesome. I love these conversations. You're the best. And everybody needs to tune into Truth in the Barrel every damn time. We're on, we're out.
- [54:40]
A
See you next time. There are research firms, there are consulting firms, and then. Then there's Forester. Meet Today's forester@forrester.com.